NationStates Jolt Archive

I've a question for all NS'ers of a Nordic/Scandinavian origin. I'm sure everyone's well aware of the concept of the Scandinavian nations (Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Iceland, and sometimes Finland) as being near-perfect libertarian states, where everyone is perfectly happy and contempt and live lives of complete liberation unfettered by any confines, be they governmental, societal, religous, sexual, or otherwise

First question: Is this true?

Second question: If so, then what is your countries policy on immigration?

Complete liberation, you can't even buy a good slice of pizza over there.

I question your use of the word, "libertarian." Are you sure that’s the word you were looking for?



Side point: your overall theme reminds me of a story I heard once, it was about churches not countries, but the message would be the same.

If you ever find the perfect church, where everyone is properly balanced, and all things are as they should be, DON'T go there! You will ruin it!


;)

Nice topic.I would also like to ask the people from Scandinavia whether the social state has been pulled down in comparison with the decades of 80's.

Huh? Afaik their alcohol is more expensive(because of tax) and their drug laws are more restrictive than ours (dutch), so I don't call them libertarian at all :p

I read once, I think in a Harper's Index, that Danish men have the heaviest testicles (if you like that kind of thing). Other than that, as progressive as these countries may be, most of them lie so far to the north that it gets dark at three in the afternoon for half the year. Who needs that?

While I don't live in any of the Scandinavian countries, I'm almost certain that they have a whole host of other problems unseen by those who hold them up as paragons of social democracy (namely, all of those UN reports and human rights organisations putting Nordic countries at the top of every positive report).

Nevertheless, I intend someday to visit Scandinavia, especially Norway and Iceland; if only for the pastoral scenery. (Waterfalls, glaciers, fjords, volcanoes....)

I question your use of the word, "libertarian." Are you sure that’s the word you were looking for?

;)

Sorry, I meant "liberal"... thanks for pointing that out.

And Blaatschapen, you're Dutch, you dont count :D a Roman orgy is conservative compared to some of the shit I've seen go down in Amsterdam

Sorry, I meant "liberal"... thanks for pointing that out.

And Blaatschapen, you're Dutch, you dont count :D a Roman orgy is conservative compared to some of the shit I've seen go down in Amsterdam

Yes, and that's only the watered down thing we show the tourists ;)

where everyone is perfectly happy and contempt and live lives...

I don't think that that was your ideal word choice...

Aaaaargh, its been too long since I've spoken English :( *burns with embarassment*

Hi, I am not from Scandinavia but from northern Germany. Hence, I am "closed" to these nations.
A typical scandinavian democracy has some undoubtable characteristics. (i) there is a welfare programm. The gap between well situated and poorer people is not that big. As Scandinavia has a very good living standard comparable to central Europe, Australia and the US there are no "real poor" people, i.e. straving etc is completely unknown. (ii) The political map is not only "liberal" there are also nationalistic or communist parties known and allowed. Even parties that fight against the state are allowed. An example is the NSDAP, the Nazi party which is forbidden in Germany but allowed in Denmark (it is not ironic). But due to the world benchmark social politics in the Scandinavian countries no one needs to be worried about this. These extreme parties gather only a few houndred votes compairing to the million democratic ones. (iii) The often cited liberty affects namely the cicil rights. These rights are very large. But this is nota consequence of politics. This is a consequence of tolerant viewing towards your neighbour. And - i think - this is also because population density is low in Scandinavia, you have to live with your neighbour - there is no other... (iv) The population is very friendly and this "by nature" and not by law. However, you find this progressive, liberal and tolerant "normal" behaviour again in the laws and politics. (v) Usually there is a great amount of patriotism within Scandinavia. Certainly, the Scandinavian countries have had all a period in history where they were superpowers. And they are proud of their progressive politics. As a slightly negative consequence I feel a little doubt within Scandinavia how to handle with immigrants. This may be also because the very good welfare systems could be misused, too. And, you shall not forget, that most of the immigrants are much less tolerant in their culture. Hence, they could not necessarily expect full tolerance.
As a conclusion, I would like to be in Scandinavia - if I could move as simple as in the NS game. On the other hand: I prefer to change our politics to be a little more Scandinavian :-) And: I may say: In northern Germany were arecloser there than in other parts of Germany, and probably in large parts of Europe.

According to the Political Compass, Finland is the most libertarian country in Europe... http://www.politicalcompass.org/euchart

I can't say for sure if that's true (I'm from Finland, and I've always thought Sweden as even more libertarian country). In any case, I don't like libertarianism at all, and sometimes I feel that our government is way too weak and powerless.

And when it comes to immigration, it's very obvious that no government wants to adopt absolute open border -policy, as that would hurt economy of any nation.

As Scandinavia has a very good living standard comparable to central Europe, Australia and the US there are no "real poor" people, i.e. straving etc is completely unknown.
Not true. The problem with poverty might perhaps be smaller than in other western countries, but we still have plenty of poor. I don't know about starving, but when you live on the street and wear old and dirty clothes, how much worse can it really get? Just visit the local subway station or other place of gathering in any major city and you'll find them.

Even parties that fight against the state are allowed. An example is the NSDAP, the Nazi party which is forbidden in Germany but allowed in Denmark (it is not ironic). But due to the world benchmark social politics in the Scandinavian countries no one needs to be worried about this. These extreme parties gather only a few houndred votes compairing to the million democratic ones.
Denmark has Dansk Folkeparti, which is quite big, and Sweden has Sverigedemokraterna, which got 2,93% of the votes in the 2006 elections. Now, they might not be Nazi parties, but they're still rather unpleasant, and people, especially in Sweden, are very worried about them. Except their voters, of course, who are more numerous than you think.

Sorry, I meant "liberal"... thanks for pointing that out.No, you didn't mean liberal either. None of those countries are - to the eternal dismay of the liberals living in them.

They're sort of semi-democratic-socialist states. Beyond that, the answers are a bit tricky.

1. No, it just looks that way if you start comparing. This doesn't mean the Scandinavian countries aren't bad, just that everywhere else is worse than bad.

2. Immigration policies vary wildly. Denmark tried to kill newcomers before they reached the borders until recently (see their involvement in the war against the Iraqi peoples). Now they've stepped it down to keeping people in internment camps until they die of old age, kill themselves, or become so sick they have to be deported to other countries for medical reasons. I'm exaggerating, or course, but by depressingly little.
Sweden's slightly better. They accept more immigrants & their definition of "refugee" approximates reality, but they're still tied up with the whole Schengen "Mensch/Untermensch" debacle.
Norway is somewhere in between.
All of them have a long tradition of prioritizing alienation over integration, of course, which has made it increasingly trendy to be a racist over the last decade or so.
Finland is a subsidiary of Sweden & has no policies of its own. Sort of like Australia & the US.

You might want to check out the wiki entries for the countries. Unlike my hyperbole, those are semi-factual.

1) yes they do live happy little lives unconcerned with things like what women choose to do with there own damn bodies

2) immigration to Scandinavia gets rather easy if you live in the EU;)

Click Stand;13321454']... you can't even buy a good slice of pizza over there.Hogwash.

Scandinavia does seem to be better in general, yes, though they seem to be more racist than many other places, so I guess no place is perfect.

I've a question for all NS'ers of a Nordic/Scandinavian origin. I'm sure everyone's well aware of the concept of the Scandinavian nations (Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Iceland, and sometimes Finland) as being near-perfect libertarian states, where everyone is perfectly happy and contempt and live lives of complete liberation unfettered by any confines, be they governmental, societal, religous, sexual, or otherwise

You don't understand what libertarian and subsequently liberal mean at all, it would seem. Anyhow...

First question: Is this true?

Nope.

Second question: If so, then what is your countries policy on immigration?

Much too complex for me to bother even to begin to describe on an Internet forum.

though they seem to be more racist than many other places

I must echo Divine Imaginary Fluff: hogwash.

I must echo Divine Imaginary Fluff: hogwash.Perhaps. I might be dealing with a biased sample.

Yes, the scandinavian countries are a social democratic dream! The countries are very homogenic; differences in income is not as great as in most countries, everyone gets free education and almost free healthcare, the son of the CEO is in the same class as the workers son. The only ones that are poor are people which use drugs or too much alcohol.
There is great equality between the genders and (most) people are tolerant towards different sexual orientations.

This ofcourse, isnt the whole story, for example in Norway we do have a party called "fremskrittspartiet" (party of progress- a party with great sense of self-irony), they are rasistic, homophobic, patriarchal and dumb as often as they can get away with it, and its a big party with 18% in the last election. This party has a slight hue of brown in it, one might speculate that it is a reaction to our progressive politics.

Perhaps.

You give yourself too much credit.

I might be dealing with a biased sample.

Or with figments of your own imagination.

You give yourself too much credit.

Or with figments of your own imagination.I don't typically imagine occurrences in Scandinavia, so the latter isn't it.

I've a question for all NS'ers of a Nordic/Scandinavian origin. I'm sure everyone's well aware of the concept of the Scandinavian nations (Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Iceland, and sometimes Finland) as being near-perfect libertarian states, where everyone is perfectly happy and contempt and live lives of complete liberation unfettered by any confines, be they governmental, societal, religous, sexual, or otherwise

First question: Is this true?

Second question: If so, then what is your countries policy on immigration?

The key word is contempt.

I think that contempt is a state of mind and not just a place. *nod*

;)

I don't typically imagine occurrences in Scandinavia, so the latter isn't it.

You imagine all sorts of occurrences, so in this respect you give yourself too little credit.

Finland is a subsidiary of Sweden & has no policies of its own.

Care to back that one up please? :) It's not like it's the 18th century there anymore, you know? :p

I suspect cultural misunderstandings are rife in this thread

Care to back that one up please? :) It's not like it's the 18th century there anymore, you know? :p

well when was the last time Finland wasn't somebody's bitch? :p

You imagine all sorts of occurrences, so in this respect you give yourself too little credit.Is that so? How interesting. Tell me more.

Care to back that one up please? :) It's not like it's the 18th century there anymore, you know? :p
Is that the only part in that post you have trouble believing???

Is that the only part in that post you have trouble believing???

No, but it's the only thing I have enough knowledge about to be able to argue otherwise :)

well when was the last time Finland wasn't somebody's bitch? :p

Good question :p

well when was the last time Finland wasn't somebody's bitch? :p

1990-1995

Or with figments of your own imagination.

There exists a biased sample in Denmark that includes about 23% of the population, disregarding that the two major parties seem unconcerned about their racist stances and policies. Denmark is part of Scandinavia, therefore, it is certainly not impossible to be dealing with a racist sample from Scandinavia.

Since Norway, Sweden and Finland undoubtably contain such biased samples as well, they are not necessarily figments of your own imagination.

1990-1995

I do believe you forget the 14th to 18th centuries. Sure, we owned you, but we were benevolent owners and did you nothing but good! So, you see, you weren't our "bitch", you were more our concubine. ;)

I do believe you forget the 14th to 18th centuries. Sure, we owned you, but we were benevolent owners and did you nothing but good! So, you see, you weren't our "bitch", you were more our concubine. ;)
I believe the question was "when was the last time...".
So, the answer is from 1990 when the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union agreed to give up its monopoly of power - to the EU membership in 1995.

Finland needs lovin', what can I say. Co-dependant, if you like...

I believe the question was "when was the last time...".
So, the answer is from 1990 when the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union agreed to give up its monopoly of power to the EU membership in 1995.

Ah, but you weren't behind the iron curtain, so to any extent that you were Russia's bitch before the collapse, you continued to be the same sort of bitch afterwards. Yeah, that makes sense.

Finland needs lovin', what can I say. Co-dependant, if you like...

You are sexy animal! Everyone wants you.

1) Scandinavia is super spiffing because it has bilberries, so they can eat bilberry jam and pancakes every day.

2) Their immigration policies vary a lot from state to state.

well when was the last time Finland wasn't somebody's bitch? :p
1918, when it was technically its own bitch for around 5 months. Then it went back to being Sweden's bitch.

Ah, but you weren't behind the iron curtain, so to any extent that you were Russia's bitch before the collapse, you continued to be the same sort of bitch afterwards. Yeah, that makes sense.
Geopolitical reality is a biatch.

This is some of the worst far out bullshit I have ever heard! weere the fuck did you get all this crap from?? I might not support the Danish People's Party but this is utter lies :upyours:
The last line wasn't big enough clue?
It might be hard to detect a joke when there's no smilies. Yours is nice, btw.

The last line wasn't big enough clue?
It might be hard to detect a joke when there's no smilies. Yours is nice, btw.


Argh! dammit, sorry :( I will just go hide :(

Care to back that one up please? :) It's not like it's the 18th century there anymore, you know? :pIt was a joke. You sort of got it though. Some Finns have a bit of a nationalist ego problem over their past history with Sweden.

Apart from the bit about checking the wiki & not taking my post seriously, all of it was either made up or exaggerated beyond the extreme. It was meant to amuse or annoy Scandinavians, because that's what childish people like me do, when they're bored. If you thought it was something other than that, or worse, thought it was informative, go check the wiki. You might want to check if you left your reading glasses in your hair or something as well. It's not like I didn't stress it was bullshit.

Click Stand;13321454']Complete liberation, you can't even buy a good slice of pizza over there.
Hogwash.

You can, but a pizza and 2 beers will cost about $50 American.

You can, but a pizza and 2 beers will cost about $50 American.Not quite, but since that's just what I bought today at a restaurant, I can tell you that a pizza and two pints of beer was 14 €. Not the cheapest of restaurants, mind you.

Not quite, but since that's just what I bought today at a restaurant, I can tell you that a pizza and two pints of beer was 14 €. Not the cheapest of restaurants, mind you.

Perhaps my folks ended up in a more expensive place, but that's what it cost them last month.

I live in the UK, but I admire a lot of the Scandinavian policies, especially their massive HDI rankings. :D

You can, but a pizza and 2 beers will cost about $50 American.That's not much, though.

Perhaps my folks ended up in a more expensive place, but that's what it cost them last month.
In Oslo, Norway, by any chance..? I mean, in here a place has to have a couple of Michelin stars for a pizza and couple of beers to cost 50$.

In Oslo, Norway, by any chance..?

Might have been -- they did the whole Sweden, Norway, Denmark tour thing.

It was a joke. You sort of got it though. Some Finns have a bit of a nationalist ego problem over their past history with Sweden.

Apart from the bit about checking the wiki & not taking my post seriously, all of it was either made up or exaggerated beyond the extreme. It was meant to amuse or annoy Scandinavians, because that's what childish people like me do, when they're bored. If you thought it was something other than that, or worse, thought it was informative, go check the wiki. You might want to check if you left your reading glasses in your hair or something as well. It's not like I didn't stress it was bullshit.

Whatever :)

Not quite, but since that's just what I bought today at a restaurant, I can tell you that a pizza and two pints of beer was 14 €. Not the cheapest of restaurants, mind you.

€14? That's a bit steep. I can get a pizza a two beers for around 75 kr/€8 and not from a dump, either. Anyway, I think Katganistan has just started to realise how much the US dollar has lost in value - of course everything will seem expensive if your home currency is the new lira.

That's not much, though.

A pizza in the US would cost between $9-13 dollars, and a decent beer would be $5 to $7 dollars.... so yes, comparatively, $50 for a pizza and 2 beers is a lot.

€14? That's a bit steep. I can get a pizza a two beers for around 75 kr/€8 and not from a dump, either. Anyway, I think Katganistan has just started to realise how much the US dollar has lost in value - of course everything will seem expensive if your home currency is the new lira.

Or if everything is massively overpriced in the podunk berg they visited. That would cost $30 back home.

Or if everything is massively overpriced in the podunk berg they visited. That would cost $30 back home.

Even with the US dollar's drooping value, $30/€21 for a pizza and 2 beers is preposterous a price even here. There is a large possibility that your parents got suckered if they paid €35 for that.

A pizza in the US would cost between $9-13 dollars, and a decent beer would be $5 to $7 dollars.... so yes, comparatively, $50 for a pizza and 2 beers is a lot.Prices of pizzas and beers haven't changed to reflect the fact that the dollar is worth jack-shit these days (personal irritation with the loss of over 20 € worth of money due to the dollar's weakness shining through). It's likely they were in Norway, where everything is more expensive. However, $9-13 isn't a decent price for a pizza for anyone that lives in a country whose currency is not stuck to the dollar. $50 is only worth about € 35 at the moment (not even, at the time I checked), and whether that's very expensive or merely pricey will depend on where they ate.

Wow, I didn't intend to start a pizza debate. All I know is, wherever I went to get pizza, it always tasted worse. Maybe I just have bad luck in foreign countries (and it cost much more BTW).

.... where everyone is perfectly happy and contempt ...

Roflmao.

Click Stand;13322301']Wow, I didn't intend to start a pizza debate. All I know is, wherever I went to get pizza, it always tasted worse. Maybe I just have bad luck in foreign countries (and it cost much more BTW).American pizza and European pizza are two different things. That might explain the "worse" bit. As for cost, the Czech Republic is (and has been) in a similar situation as the US is now, and things are comparatively cheap there.

€14? That's a bit steep. I can get a pizza a two beers for around 75 kr/€8 and not from a dump, either. Oh, true. I was in one of the better places - though not one of the best by a long shot. It's the pint in the restaurant that jacks the price up. A decent takeway pizza and a litre of beer is like 8 €.of course everything will seem expensive if your home currency is the new lira.LOL quite.
Click Stand]Wow, I didn't intend to start a pizza debate.As a discussion grows longer, the probability of it turning into a pizza debate approaches one. It's the new Godwin, really.

A pizza in the US would cost between $9-13 dollars, and a decent beer would be $5 to $7 dollars.... so yes, comparatively, $50 for a pizza and 2 beers is a lot.

There are plenty of offers here. If you order home/takeaway you can get eg. 4 pizzas + 1.5l coke for 20-25€ pretty much anywhere - That's about 8$ for a pizza and .4 litres of soda.

If you eat in a restaurant then it gets more expensive, let alone if you eat in a brand-restaurant eg. Pizza-hut - As a rule: If it's originally/conceptually american it's usually hideously overpriced here.

Bar beer is expensive though and costs anywhere from 5-10 euros/litre.

If you eat in a restaurant then it gets more expensive, let alone if you eat in a brand-restaurant eg. Pizza-hut - As a rule: If it's originally/conceptually american it's usually hideously overpriced here.Teehee :D
Pizza Hut usually gets translated into "Pizza Hat" over here, due to the fact that "Hut" means "hat" in German, and the "roof" on the logo can easily be mistaken for one...

Teehee :D
Pizza Hut usually gets translated into "Pizza Hat" over here, due to the fact that "Hut" means "hat" in German, and the "roof" on the logo can easily be mistaken for one...
Not to mention the product tastes like one too...

Second question: If so, then what is your countries policy on immigration?
You're looking for a complete overview of the immigration policy of five different countries? 0.o

Oy vey!

You can, but a pizza and 2 beers will cost about $50 American.
In Oslo, Norway, at the wrong kind of franchise restaurant, it could and would. You'll find cheaper and tastier pizza elsewhere though :)

There's a pizza hut in Lyngby, Denmark that's pretty good and worth the price :p

Other than that, pizzas seem to range in price from 6 to 12 dollars. In the past, they would have cost between 4 and 8 dollars.

Not to mention the product tastes like one too...
Oi!

Oh, who am I kidding. The only worthwhile pizzas there are the ones we make for ourselves, so they'll never be sold. :D

Well Fass-hole certainly thinks he is superior...

There's a pizza hut in Lyngby, Denmark that's pretty good and worth the price :p

Other than that, pizzas seem to range in price from 6 to 12 dollars. In the past, they would have cost between 4 and 8 dollars.

Yes, but Lyngby is the student part of Copenhagen (DTU :D)

And I see that the pizzas are cheaper in Scandinavia :( Or they are just very overpriced here in The Netherlands :(

How do you mean libertarian? From what I understand Sweden has the reputation of being a country of social democracy and a big public sector...

Sorry, I meant "liberal"... thanks for pointing that out.

And Blaatschapen, you're Dutch, you dont count :D a Roman orgy is conservative compared to some of the shit I've seen go down in Amsterdam

I think you also meant "content" instead of "contempt."

Perhaps my folks ended up in a more expensive place, but that's what it cost them last month.

I will cynically venture that it's because the proprietor of the restaurant noticed that they were foreigners and therefore overcharged them, believing they would think themselves ignorant of local customs and therefore not dispute the price, or some such disdain. (In Israel, for instance, I found that the difference between speaking English and speaking Hebrew when asking for things could be as much as 20 nis, or about $5.)

Alternately, it's because they simply went to a really expensive place. I've seen $20+ pizzas at fancy Italian restaurants in New York, and that was back when the dollar and the euro were pretty much equivalent.

I will cynically venture that it's because the proprietor of the restaurant noticed that they were foreigners and therefore overcharged them, believing they would think themselves ignorant of local customs and therefore not dispute the price, or some such disdain.
Doubtful. I've found that the menus in Scandinavia offers set prices, making it difficult for them to overcharge customers. The customer should be able to figure out the total sum that they will be charged before they order.

Doubtful. I've found that the menus in Scandinavia offers set prices, making it difficult for them to overcharge customers. The customer should be able to figure out the total sum that they will be charged before they order.

In that case I suppose it was just a really expensive restaurant. (I always make my own pizza anyway, or in worst case scenarios I buy frozen pizzas from Trader Joe's and stick them in the oven.)

Doubtful. I've found that the menus in Scandinavia offers set prices, making it difficult for them to overcharge customers. The customer should be able to figure out the total sum that they will be charged before they order.

I love how Europeans include the sales tax in the menu price. That's one thing that's really bothered me since moving back to the States.

where I live you can get 2 pizzas, 2 starters and a dessert for £20, however this is from Pizza hut

I love how Europeans include the sales tax in the menu price. That's one thing that's really bothered me since moving back to the States.

I've always forgot this when visiting the US which makes me look like an idiot :mad:

though I suppose it doesn't really matter considering I'm a "here have my money just leave me alone" kind of customer

Oh, who am I kidding. The only worthwhile pizzas there are the ones we make for ourselves, so they'll never be sold. :D

QFT, the Mrs works at Pizza hut at the moment and I can honestly say I'm always nuzzling her crotch expecting to be fed

all this talk of pizza makes me hungry, but I ain't gettin' any pizza right now, it's almost 3AM here... :(

I don't think that that was your ideal word choice...

Actually, it could be appropriate. Fass is Scandinavian (Swedish). I think he eats, sleeps and breathes contempt.

Yes their government, at least in terms of social policy, is superior. Though they do have a problem with boringness apparently...

Yes their government, at least in terms of social policy, is superior. Though they do have a problem with boringness and suicide apparently...
Scandinavians enjoy the lowest levels of pollution, homelessness, and illiteracy in the world. And yet most of them will commit suicide. Why? Because six months of glorious sunlight must cede to six months of spirit-crushing darkness.
I believe that explains it.

Though they do have a problem with boringness and suicide apparently...

No, we don't. Only Finland has any remarkable suicide rate, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate) being number 13 in the world. Sweden (32), Norway (44), Denmark (29) and Iceland (36) don't have any particularly elevated suicide rate for being Western countries.

The myth that the Scandinavian countries have high suicides rates (apart from Finland) comes from the fact that Sweden back in the 50s and 60s was among the first countries to properly report on suicide stats (the other Scandinavian countries soon followed), while in other, more religious countries suicides were often not reported as such because of the stigma, giving the Scandinavian countries high figures in comparison to the artificially deflated ones in primarily the USA, where Time magazine even ran this as a front page in a stunning display of journalistic incompetence:

http://www.faktoider.nu/img/time19760607.jpg

There is of course also the Edinburgh University Scandinavian Library's explanation as to how the myth came to be prominent:

"A table of Suicide rates compiled by the World Health Organisation, Geneva, 2003, shows that while other Nordic and Baltic countries do show high rates of male suicide (e.g Lithuania, Estonia and Finland), Sweden does not exhibit an unusually high rate. Indeed France, New Zealand, Australia and Germany each show higher rates than Sweden. The Swedish rate is slightly higher than Canada and the USA perhaps but not the highest in the world. The myth of Swedish suicide” has its roots in the late-1950s when the American President Dwight D. Eisenhower referred to it in a speech which had been based on an inaccurate briefing. The President had tried to paint a negative picture of Sweden, a nation which - with its cradle-to-grave socialism - had set itself on a post-war neutral stance outside the then embryonic-NATO and American influence. Ever since many people have accepted the picture as fact and perpetuate the myth."

The Time magazine article (1976) referenced his speech and just continued spreading the untruth, because of a Cold War willingness to make the "socialist" Scandinavian countries, especially non-NATO USA-sceptic Sweden, look bad and seem like bogeymen to scare the people in the USA with. Sort of like, "if we get comprehensive social security nets, you'll all kill yourselves! They are!"

I went on a bit of a rant there, but I am so tired of this BS about suicides in Scandinavia being perpetuated by ignorant people.

I went on a bit of a rant there, but I am so tired of this BS about suicides in Scandinavia being perpetuated by ignorant people.
Can't blame you for it. However, it's rather amazing to see how propaganda lies from the Cold War era still fester. Some people will believe anything if it makes them feel better about their bloated selves, I guess.

And what's so bad about suicide anyways..?
I often meet people I wish would commit one.

To tell you the truth, Finnish suicide rate is high because we give the stupid people the 'honourable option'. It saves us from committing honor killings.

Well Fass-hole certainly thinks he is superior...
Yes, that's because the USA is about 112% as lame as Sweden (official statistics, 2005), so there we go.

No, we don't. Only Finland has any remarkable suicide rate, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate) being number 13 in the world. Sweden (32), Norway (44), Denmark (29) and Iceland (36) don't have any particularly elevated suicide rate for being Western countries.

The myth that the Scandinavian countries have high suicides rates (apart from Finland) comes from the fact that Sweden back in the 50s and 60s was among the first countries to properly report on suicide stats (the other Scandinavian countries soon followed), while in other, more religious countries suicides were often not reported as such because of the stigma, giving the Scandinavian countries high figures in comparison to the artificially deflated ones in primarily the USA, where Time magazine even ran this as a front page in a stunning display of journalistic incompetence:

http://www.faktoider.nu/img/time19760607.jpg

There is of course also the Edinburgh University Scandinavian Library's explanation as to how the myth came to be prominent:

"A table of Suicide rates compiled by the World Health Organisation, Geneva, 2003, shows that while other Nordic and Baltic countries do show high rates of male suicide (e.g Lithuania, Estonia and Finland), Sweden does not exhibit an unusually high rate. Indeed France, New Zealand, Australia and Germany each show higher rates than Sweden. The Swedish rate is slightly higher than Canada and the USA perhaps but not the highest in the world. The myth of Swedish suicide” has its roots in the late-1950s when the American President Dwight D. Eisenhower referred to it in a speech which had been based on an inaccurate briefing. The President had tried to paint a negative picture of Sweden, a nation which - with its cradle-to-grave socialism - had set itself on a post-war neutral stance outside the then embryonic-NATO and American influence. Ever since many people have accepted the picture as fact and perpetuate the myth."

The Time magazine article (1976) referenced his speech and just continued spreading the untruth, because of a Cold War willingness to make the "socialist" Scandinavian countries, especially non-NATO USA-sceptic Sweden, look bad and seem like bogeymen to scare the people in the USA with. Sort of like, "if we get comprehensive social security nets, you'll all kill yourselves! They are!"

I went on a bit of a rant there, but I am so tired of this BS about suicides in Scandinavia being perpetuated by ignorant people.

Fine... fine, I'll edit it.

I believe that explains it.
The fact that, aye, in most of Scandinavia you get basically no light for 5 or 6 months of the year (after living in Orkney, I can personally tell you how horrible this is), and seasonally-affected depression affects about 20% of Scandinavians (and is genetic, and hence that's a statistic that's not going to change soon), that has a bit of a hand in it.

Although as Fass has pointed out, Sweden doesn't actually have a very high suicide rate.

The fact that, aye, in most of Scandinavia you get basically no light for 5 or 6 months of the year (after living in Orkney, I can personally tell you how horrible this is), and seasonally-affected depression affects about 20% of Scandinavians (and is genetic, and hence that's a statistic that's not going to change soon), that has a bit of a hand in it.

Although as Fass has pointed out, Sweden doesn't actually have a very high suicide rate.

Although, it shouldn't really be that high, when the people are generally quite well off.

The fact that, aye, in most of Scandinavia you get basically no light for 5 or 6 months of the year (after living in Orkney, I can personally tell you how horrible this is).
Sunlight.

The missionaries introduced us to electricity and a lightbulb back in 1992. ;)

Although, it shouldn't really be that high, when the people are generally quite well off.
As someone who suffers from SAD (which makes you SAD), I'll tell you now that it's fucking horrible, and it does make you quite suicidal.

Ah, also, it's not that high a rate of death.

You give yourself too much credit.I have to say that if fass is any indication of the typical swede I will never visit...though the only other person from sweden I've ever dealt with extensively was exceedingly kind, I think her parents were children of the aristocratic chinese resistance to Mao - she never mentioned the racism another friend mentioned, though that might be because she was a flawlessly beautiful girl and people were too busy falling over themselves to be rude. a black friend of mine from the Netherlands Antilles said there were parts of northern europe where she couldn't even get out of the car for safety's sake...I'm white though, so if they spoke a language other than swedish I'd consider emigrating there. I'm not too keen on learning a scandinavian language though...compared to spanish or swahili or hindi they're kind of niche languages...albeit they have very well-managed niches.

As someone who suffers from SAD (which makes you SAD), I'll tell you now that it's fucking horrible, and it does make you quite suicidal.

Ah, also, it's not that high a rate of death.
I'm pretty sure the Seasonal Affective Disorder doesn't explain the high suicide rate in Finland. We have sun lamps and enough dough to take a trip to some sunny destination during the winter time.

Heavy drinking and it's effects might...

I have to say that if fass is any indication of the typical swede I will never visit...

The Swedish Tourism Board is crying itself to sleep tonight, no doubt. Or preparing to write me a nice letter for helping to discourage a certain undesirable element. They could do both, I think - they're bipolar that way.

I'm pretty sure the Seasonal Affective Disorder doesn't explain the high suicide rate in Finland. We have sun lamps and enough dough to take a trip to some sunny destination during the winter time.

Heavy drinking and it's effects might...

I'd blame it on Finnish tango. I've come across very few things that are more depressing.

I'd blame it on Finnish tango. I've come across very few things that are more depressing.
I couldn't agree more. Although there has been some alarming reports that young people have picked up the 'romantic' tango 'culture', I think I'm safe to say the Finnish tango is eradicated from this land by 2060.

EDIT: OH! and add Finnish 'tango' with heavy drinking in a society where we don't see the sun for several months AND have high rate of gun ownership... case closed.

I'd blame it on Finnish tango. I've come across very few things that are more depressing.
Is this Finnish Tango exactly what it sounds like?

*edits*

Jesus this is fucking terrible stuff, but I'd have thought that it would be the murder rate that would be very high, not the suicide rate. Murder-suicides notwithstanding, of course.

EDIT: OH! and add Finnish 'tango' with heavy drinking in a society where we don't see the sun for several months AND have high rate of gun ownership... case closed.

Please don't take offense to this, but you're basically saying "that's unfair, the only reason we have a high suicide rate is because our country has all these crappy problems!". :D

Please don't take offense to this, but you're basically saying "that's unfair, the only reason we have a high suicide rate is because our country has all these crappy problems!". :D

Oh, no offense taken, trust me. I don't take offence on behalf of geopolitical entities.

People are responsible of their own actions, no matter where and which kind of place they live.

EDIT: oh yeah, now I get it. Well, I'm very , very drunk and it's pretty darned dark here, so I can't see how I could argue this any further... errmm., yes.

Scandinavia has heavy metal and vikings; that's all that matters.