NationStates Jolt Archive

It's well past 1 AM, we're on a second shift of trying to convince our daughter it's sleepy time, and in some parts of the world people celebrate the birth of a certain guy whose mother nobody asked if she wants to go through all this... So it's a good moment to ask: what's in it? Why have children?
I know not many NS'ers have them, but it's better to ask yourself that question before than after, you know.

For me, it's like that:

CONS
1. We essentially lost our freedom. We wanted to go places, see Paris in April, that sort of thing, now we have to wait until kids are big enough to be left on emergency life support (granny) or to go with us (but that's just not the same altogether).
2. Until the end of our lives we'll be dreading in the depths of our hearts - are they OK, aren't they in danger, what if somebody hurts them etc...
3. We have lots of expenses we never thought about earlier, from the ridiculous amounts of diapers to the college fund.
4. We have to spend a lot of time doing things that we never found appealing. Let's don't go into gory details, they involve human digestion byproducts.
5. We are changed. For example, I can't watch without getting all worked up movies where children are in danger or hurt. Another example - yesterday I mindlessly ate a piece of banana my daughter held for a moment in her mouth and then handed to me. I'd never do such thing before, it's disgusting. But I did it without even thinking about it, only then realizing how I have changed.
6. The world around us has changed - it has now a huge, very important part that can be used to manipulate us to do what we'd never do otherwise.

But it all actually boils down to point 1. We lost our freedom. That's what love does to us - it makes us dependant. Vulnerable.

PROS
1. We have more happy moments each day than before. Our daughter is joy to behold even when throwing a tantrum.
2. The world has become a much more beautiful place. :D
3. We have bigger family. Bigger = safer, not only in the future, even now for example if one of us dies, the others have a better chance to survive the loss and carry on.
4. We have a lot more goals in life, well that's not necessarily a good thing if you want a dolce vita, but I'm talking of us here.
5. We have more common points, things we both relate to similarily (but that comes with a near-cancelling disclaimer - having children to fix failing relationship is a BAD idea).
6. Our relatives like us more and are more tolerant to our faults.

The pros are more varied, but what they actually boil down to is: we have more love in our lives.

What do you think? Are you going to breed and overpopulate Mother Earth?

I actually may get a Vasectomy soon. :)

No. I'll probably change my mind, but for now, no.

No I don't think so.

No, but I'm adopting. No doubt about that.

Just imo, it's not worth it. I am in no way interested in paying at least $100,000 and years of emotional vacillation and torment at the hands of my children, just for a selfish desire for love on my part (which ends up not being reciprocated half the time). I sometimes look at my parents and consider the marvelously interesting lives they lived before having children, and that by the time my younger sibling is out of the house they will be eligible for retirement; I observe that we've essentially taken the most productive years of their lives, prevented them from making enough money to live comfortably through their old age, and we continued to torture and resent them (me for the first five years of adolescence; and virtually as soon as I was ove it, my little brother started on his five years...).

Of course, this is most likely evolution's mechanism to make sure that my target demographic (i.e. 15 to 20-year-old females) don't become pregnant with children they may not be ready to support, and to give me enough life experience to serve as a responsible and capable parent; and in five or ten years I'll find the concept slightly more attractive.

just for a selfish desire for love on my part (which ends up not being reciprocated half the time)

I'm sorry if I touch some emotional scars of yours, but I think that with all the dependence and DNA programming the children receive, if the parents end up being unloved, it's their own foucaulting fault. They must have screwed something up BADLY to overcome the natural tendencies.

I'm adopting. I don't want to go through the whole pregnancy business, and I don't want to gnerate more people, so I will raise other people's children. :)

I'm sorry if I touch some emotional scars of yours, but I think that with all the dependence and DNA programming the children receive, if the parents end up being unloved, it's their own foucaulting fault. They must have screwed something up BADLY to overcome the natural tendencies.

No, actually, the problem (in my parents' case) is entirely on my end, as I suffered from "psychological problems" through adolescence. Then, when adolescence was over, I suffered from the results of the "psychological problems" going away.

I admit that I'm exaggerating a bit in my post, but I do that an awful lot.

I am the oldest of four siblings, and the last to have kids. I don't actually have any children of my own yet, although one is on the way, and my girlfriend has one from a previous relationship. I'm happy about this.

I'll put it to you this way; I know that I'll be losing a certain amount of freedom - both personal and financial. But, at my age, (32), I look at what little I've accomplished in the last decade, and then try to picture doing the same for the next three to four or possibly longer. Long hours staring at a computer screen, meeting on Fridays with friends to drink, and showing up to family functions as the single guy. I'm not exactly a jet-setter.

Life with children is a little more 'full'. It's not for everyone, certainly. But I can look down the future pipeline and see a more complete version of myself. Certainly more frazzled in some respects, but I think much happier. And I like kids, and practically helped raise one of my nephews.

I guess what I'm saying is that fear of losing something precious is no reason not to have something precious. But hey, I'm talkin' out of my ass. Reality will probably hit me like a hammer before I know it. :-)

I say follow your biological urges. If you want children then have them. If you don't feel the need then don't. As for overpopulation it depends on where you are. If you are in a nation that can't handle more then it's something you need to worry about. If you live in a land of plenty then it's not a problem.

No, actually, the problem (in my parents' case) is entirely on my end

But you don't resent your old folks now? Are you going to sweeten their autumn years? Because, you know, maybe they will find it's good to have children in the end?
I at my worst moments punched through the glass door with my bare hands, tried to strangle my sister and banged her head against the wall, and my brother threw a knife at me, but we are fine now, mostly. And we love our mum :D

My son turned three months old on Christmas Eve, and yeah, I hear all of your cons and then some. We ended up staying in Japan instead of going home because my wife was too far along to travel (Meaning I suddenly had to very quickly find myself a new job and a place to live) and we couldn't make it back home to the States for Christmas as a three month old and 11 hour planes flights don't exactly mix well.

Sometimes I do resent the fact that I don't really have time for myself anymore, I'm either working hard at my job to make money for diapers or getting home and changing them, not to mention things like getting used as a pillow for three hours, unable to move less I wake him up.

Buuuuut... then I get this:
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a377/jusenkyoguide/Makoto/P1030799.jpg
And it's all worth it.

Oh hell yes! I love kids! I also want to pass on my genes, and continue the family line. I also want to fulfill my duty to humanity. And finally, I want to fulfill the goal of life: continue life.

I will likely want at least one son to raise when I get older, I'm pretty sure I've fathered at least two already.

I'm scared of having a daughter though. I'd be too overprotective. With a son you only have to worry about one penis, with a daughter, you got to worry about billions.

Not before I get to be in my mid-30's at the earliest anyway.

But you don't resent your old folks now? Are you going to sweeten their autumn years? Because, you know, maybe they will find it's good to have children in the end?
I at my worst moments punched through the glass door with my bare hands, tried to strangle my sister and banged her head against the wall, and my brother threw a knife at me, but we are fine now, mostly. And we love our mum :D

I no longer resent them, no -- I never resented them for longer than about thirty minutes at a time. But I avoided them and made their lives exceedingly difficult in a variety of ways. Now, as long as I'm still in the region I'll help them out and everything; but I lack both the ability to do much of value and the income to support them once they're out of jobs. That and I will probably end up moving elsewhere.

I don't plan to have children. I would be the world's worst mother.

Life with children is a little more 'full'.

A little, a lot and then some. I know couples whose life revolves entirely around children. I don't think it's right, but I also don't think that's right to carry on with your life like nothing happened... as some folks do (especially those who have a career to look after).

I guess what I'm saying is that fear of losing something precious is no reason not to have something precious. But hey, I'm talkin' out of my ass. Reality will probably hit me like a hammer before I know it. :-)

Yes, the more you have, the more you can lose, beggars are not afraid of theft, and so on... Ah, never mind - I hope you'll be safe and all your family too!

And it's all worth it.

Yes, it is. Nothing in the world can beat it. :D

Of course! I want a daughter. I want to lavish her with love, and give her the knowledge and foresight to not be stupid like I was and miss opportunities.

In other words like all parents I'll probably use her to feel young again, make up for lost opportunities, and generally never see her as a true person. :D

cons

you have children


pros

sometimes they are entertaining, which actually, you should probably get a cat.


yeah.
I don't think I can make a proper pro/con list about my kids, they are here, they won't go away, they make me crazy, I love them.

Cons: My children drive me even crazier.

Pros: My children drive me even crazier.

:)

I don't know really. I would like to have kids some day, though I may adopt I don't really know yet as it doesn't come up too much

however I may get a cactus :)

If you live in a land of plenty then it's not a problem.

the Moon?

Cons: My children drive me even crazier.

Pros: My children drive me even crazier.

:)

just remember that you can return the favor when your older ;)

I see children as assembly kits. They're fun to make, but when you're done they're just filling up in the corner. And though I don't see myself as a selfish person, I think I'd find it difficult to lose my freedom and not be able to do, what I want to do. I like to be spontaneous, but with children almost everything needs to be planned as I see it. You can no longer get a late phone call from your mate asking if you're coming over for a beer.

So no. I don't think so, and if I ever will have a kid, it will be through adoption as I don't feel the need to pass on my genes. I'd rather make sure a child gets a good life...

Cons: My children drive me even crazier.

Pros: My children drive me even crazier.


Are they as crazy as you?;)

I'm adopting. I don't want to go through the whole pregnancy business, and I don't want to gnerate more people, so I will raise other people's children. :)

you will NOT raise other people's children. you will raise your own children who will have been birthed by other people.

no matter how you get them they are your children and you love them with a love that knows no reason.

Con

If you are a woman, and you split up with the father of the children, most likely you'll have the kids. And after he gets over the breakup, he'll realise that he suddenly has enormous freedom to do as he pleases, while you don't get to make decision based purely on personal desires. You will always have to consider what is best for the kids. Your ex probably won't even realise that there is an imbalance, and hey, even if he does, it's clearly your fault for taking the kids in the first place, right? Let's just forget he would have dumped the kids with his mother anyway.

Just remember women...men love to bitch about paying child support and all that...but you are going to be the one with all the responsibility. If you manage to actually get any money from him, it's basically glorified babysitting money anyway...he gets to pay to offload the entire responsibility of the childrearing onto you.

So consider that before getting knocked up.

Because if you do not breed then you is a virgin.

http://www.lolcats.com/images/u/07/23/lolcatsdotcom04c656lr13r010th.jpg

Because if you do not breed then you is a virgin.

http://www.lolcats.com/images/u/07/23/lolcatsdotcom04c656lr13r010th.jpg

I think you are confusing mating with breeding.

It's well past 1 AM, we're on a second shift of trying to convince our daughter it's sleepy time...


Give her some Nyquil.

"The coughy, achy, stuffy headed, how the hell did I wake up on my cold kitchen floor, medicine."

She fall RIGHT out.


Heh, dont worry folks....no kids for me.
Btw, do you still have to feed the lil bastards?

Con

If you are a woman, and you split up with the father of the children, most likely you'll have the kids. And after he gets over the breakup, he'll realise that he suddenly has enormous freedom to do as he pleases, while you don't get to make decision based purely on personal desires. You will always have to consider what is best for the kids. Your ex probably won't even realise that there is an imbalance, and hey, even if he does, it's clearly your fault for taking the kids in the first place, right? Let's just forget he would have dumped the kids with his mother anyway.

Just remember women...men love to bitch about paying child support and all that...but you are going to be the one with all the responsibility. If you manage to actually get any money from him, it's basically glorified babysitting money anyway...he gets to pay to offload the entire responsibility of the childrearing onto you.

So consider that before getting knocked up.

Well....someone is bitter.....

Well....someone is bitter.....

Fucking right. And?

Fucking right. And?

And we hope you only take it out here and not on your children.

Fucking right. And?

Do you really think that every father wants to dump their children on the mother and go galloping out and basically become "The Bachelor" again? I don't know how Family Courts are in Canada, but in the United States, more often than not, the courts award the children to the mother because "Children shouldn't be separated from their mother." I have talked to many divorced fathers here who are fighting for joint custody for their children. The Family Courts (at last I've heard) are biased towards the mother, she gets the children, she gets the money, and she gets anywhere from half to more than half of the stuff.

However, like I said, I don't know how things are in Canada, but at last report to me, this is how things are in the States.

Thank you for reminding me why I plan to get a Vasectomy.

I'll take a cat, please.

I'd make a poor father, and I don't see why I should invest so much time and money into such a task anyway.

And we hope you only take it out here and not on your children.

:rolleyes:

My children are wonderful. It's their father whose worth is being called into question.

Do you really think that every father wants to dump their children on the mother and go galloping out and basically become "The Bachelor" again? I don't know how Family Courts are in Canada, but in the United States, more often than not, the courts award the children to the mother because "Children shouldn't be separated from their mother." I have talked to many divorced fathers here who are fighting for joint custody for their children. The Family Courts (at last I've heard) are biased towards the mother, she gets the children, she gets the money, and she gets anywhere from half to more than half of the stuff.

However, like I said, I don't know how things are in Canada, but at last report to me, this is how things are in the States.

Thank you for reminding me why I plan to get a Vasectomy.
No, I don't think every man plans to dump their kids after a split...I just think they have the option to 9 times out of 10 AND the social conditioning to affect this outcome.

Why is it, do you think, that the courts are 'biased' towards the mother?

Generally it is because the mother has been the primary caregiver to those children all along. It would make no sense to suddenly change that.

Point being...it should be a joint effort, whether you're together with the other parent or not. It shouldn't be 'single mom' or 'single dad'...it should just be 'parents'. Marital status unimportant.

:rolleyes:

My children are wonderful. It's their father whose worth is being called into question.

Actually, you are calling all potential fathers' worth into question.

Actually, you are calling all potential fathers' worth into question.

I'm calling all potential parents' worth into question. But yes. I think fathers need to step it up a notch, get their asses out of the stone-ages and actually take a more active role in parenting instead of falling back into 'me hunter, you woman, here take the kids' bullshit.

It was listed as a con to having kids. Feel free to dispute the things I've brought up, namely...that women are generally going to bear the most responsbility for the kids after a breakup. I think women should keep this in mind, just like I think pre-nups are a smart part of the planning process.

I'm calling all potential parents' worth into question. But yes. I think fathers need to step it up a notch, get their asses out of the stone-ages and actually take a more active role in parenting instead of falling back into 'me hunter, you woman, here take the kids' bullshit.

And so you also rant on about the terrible mothers who leave their children with their parents when they want to go out to party? Or is that just reserved for men?

And so you also rant on about the terrible mothers who leave their children with their parents when they want to go out to party? Or is that just reserved for men?

Depends. Are the grandparents essentially the primary caregivers of the children? Then yes, I think that's terrible. Is it inherently wrong that a mother should get time away from her kids now and again to 'go out and party'? Absolutely not.

Depends. Are the grandparents essentially the primary caregivers of the children? Then yes, I think that's terrible. Is it inherently wrong that a mother should get time away from her kids now and again to 'go out and party'? Absolutely not.

So then the reverse would be true as well? Men should get time away from their children to party?

So then the reverse would be true as well? Men should get time away from their children to party?

Assuming that the men in question are the primary caregivers, then of course.

If however, we are discussing the kind of men I brought up in my first post, namely those that have essentially given up parenting in favour of doling out a bit of money every month for their upkeep...then the point is moot.

Assuming that the men in question are the primary caregivers, then of course.

If however, we are discussing the kind of men I brought up in my first post, namely those that have essentially given up parenting in favour of doling out a bit of money every month for their upkeep...then the point is moot.

Yes, when talking specifically about the kind of men that are your ex then you have a point.

Yes, when talking specifically about the kind of men that are your ex then you have a point.

The 'kind of men that are your ex'.... :D

My ex is many things, but the vessel of multiple personalities he is not :P How about, the 'kind of men like my ex'...

I've already had my two kids. I did it when I was young (22, 23) and stupid. I had these naive ideas about having kids that have absolutely no relation to reality. 37 years later, I occasionally feel regrets for what could have been, but not for what actually was (and is).

Nope nope a~nd nope.

I can't stand pain.
I can't stand children.
I value my independance.

Parenting is not for me thank you~ ^.^ I have my reptiles, thats good enough for me ^^

The one guarantee of immortality is passing your genes on.

Assuming you are emotionally and financially capable of supporting children, and are not ugly (lol, just saying I hope you have good genes), I would completely recommend procreation. Though I have not had any of my own (I am far, far too young), all of my elders with whom I have discussed the matter have given me the same impression; that is, it is certainly worth doing, the pluses far outweighing the negatives; there is something in our psychology, we are meant to have and raise children (of course, there are always exceptions).

On a greater level, I think that one's legacy, genetic and otherwise, is something that one should be concerned about. And while you may achieve a great deal in your life, odds are that in a hundred years, perhaps more, the importance of that will be negligible. However, by reproducing, you are continuing your legacy, giving it a way to reproduce itself indefinitely. In this way it is not merely a matter of your own legacy, but of those of your ancestors.

I suppose, if you wish to get to the level of population issues, population growth is a problem in much of the third world, but the opposite problem exists in most of the first world; I do not know where you are, of course.

Nope nope a~nd nope.

I can't stand pain.
I can't stand children.
I value my independance.

Parenting is not for me thank you~ ^.^ I have my reptiles, thats good enough for me ^^

Reptiles? What kind? I have a Mexican Black Kingsnake.

The one guarantee of immortality is passing your genes on.

Bah what a load of tripe. Better yet, you get cremated and have your remains spread out as far as possible, so you get absorbed into as many living organisms as you can. Now THAT is immortality.

Bah what a load of tripe. Better yet, you get cremated and have your remains spread out as far as possible, so you get absorbed into as many living organisms as you can. Now THAT is immortality.Nah, procreation is a better bet. Incinerating your genetic material and then feeding it to plants won't pass on anything but generic molecules that used to be part of your body as part of totally different compounds.

EDIT: Oh, and I definitley want kids eventually. Hopefully not too far into the future. I want my mum to be here to help me do it right, since she is such an amazing mother. It would be much harder to have kids without family to advise and support I think.

No kids for me. :) Just don't have the patience for 'em. All the more power to those who can put up with 'em.

dunno... I really dunno how I feel about being a father.


except thinking about me being a father scares me shitless...


my pros and cons of being a father?

Cons:
The Responsibility of being a Parent.

Pros:
The Joys of being a Parent.

until I resolve this inner conflict... I'll just have to make due being a dolting Uncle.

EDIT Nice Rugrat NERVUN! :D

Reptiles? What kind? I have a Mexican Black Kingsnake.

You do?! ;_; You are so lucky! I have wanted one forever but my dad has said absolutely no more reptiles! >.<

I have two bearded dragons and a sinaloan milksnake. I want to add some more snakes to my collection, and a money tailed skink when I get my own place X3

I want to fulfill the goal of life: continue life.

Having children isn't necessarily the best way to ensure the continuation of this species. But I guess someone's got to do it.

The one guarantee of immortality is passing your genes on.

That's not immortality, living on in someone's DNA is nothing. I think that the effect that your actions and words have on people is a lot closer.

I don't plan to have kids, but I'm quite young too, so I can't be sure. I love children, but I don't think I'd want one or a few of my own. I'd still want time for other things (like myself and my work) and that seems incompatible with children unless I were a bad father, which seems even worse. It's also a decision you can't undo, it would suck if it turned out to be the wrong one. The earth is also already overpopulated as it is, we should all start to drastically breed less, adopting could overcome this problem though.
There are also practical problems, I don't have a girlfriend so it isn't really an option to begin with.

<SNIP>What do you think? Are you going to breed and overpopulate Mother Earth?

Yes and no, I've got kids, not going to have any more, two is plenty.

until I resolve this inner conflict... I'll just have to make due being a dolting Uncle.


I hope you mean doting.

What about "I'll try not to?"

I actually may get a Vasectomy soon. :)
By the way, if I went to a doctor to get a vasectomy, would it be confidential in the sense than nobody else would know about it unless I told them?

Nope. I don't understand the whole 'urge to procreate thing'. It seems to have missed me.

By the way, if I went to a doctor to get a vasectomy, would it be confidential in the sense than nobody else would know about it unless I told them?

Yes

Nope. I don't understand the whole 'urge to procreate thing'. It seems to have missed me.
It's interesting. you'd think htat if one thing were to be unshakeably programed into our biology, it would be the urge to procreate. Apparently this is not so, judging from the number of people here in the thread that don't want kids.

It's interesting. you'd think htat if one thing were to be unshakeably programed into our biology, it would be the urge to procreate. Apparently this is not so, judging from the number of people here in the thread that don't want kids.I do have to wonder how many people with kids did so accidentally, but I think that's a rather rude question to ask.

*Hint hint for to someone else to make a thread and poll*

It's interesting. you'd think htat if one thing were to be unshakeably programed into our biology, it would be the urge to procreate. Apparently this is not so, judging from the number of people here in the thread that don't want kids.

a lot of us are to young to have kids, or to imagine how nice it would be to have kids. Others haven't found anyone to have kids with, which can be a problem to. And others care to much about other stuff or think they won't be good parents.

You'd also think that being heterosexual would be hardwired into us (for pretty much the same reason) but there are plenty homosexuals and asexuals on nsg.

I'm not opposed to the idea of having kids (in fact, I love kids) but I'm nowhere near a point in my life where it's feasible.

probably not deliberately.

Of course! I want a daughter. I want to lavish her with love, and give her the knowledge and foresight to not be stupid like I was and miss opportunities.
We swore to ourselves not to make certain mistakes our parents made raising us, for example not to prefer one of our children or talk to them openly about sex. We also already made some mistakes that are entirely our own.

however I may get a cactus :)
I hope it will be adopted. :eek:

Point being...it should be a joint effort, whether you're together with the other parent or not. It shouldn't be 'single mom' or 'single dad'...it should just be 'parents'. Marital status unimportant.
Amen to that. When considering children, folks should ask themselves: am I going to love them and care of them even if someday I f*ing hate their other parent? Because this sometimes happens and too often children are amongst the victims. :(

I've already had my two kids. I did it when I was young (22, 23) and stupid. I had these naive ideas about having kids that have absolutely no relation to reality.
What naive ideas? I'm interested because we are older but not that much (especially my wife) and we have some idealistic and perhaps naive ideas about our kids. The second one, little Frank, is going to be born any time now... we actually started checking if the contractions are regular.

On a greater level, I think that one's legacy, genetic and otherwise, is something that one should be concerned about.
I'm not overly concerned about my legacy. But the sight of someone who is so similar to both of us and so beautiful is amazing. In case of adoption it works too, in a way, because for human beings the rest of the legacy - the upbringing - is at least of equal importance to genes.

Nope. I don't understand the whole 'urge to procreate thing'.
If you are not careful, procreation is the consequence of other... urges. :D I never felt the 'urge to procreate', although we wanted to have children at some point, sooner rather than later.
That said, I admit that I know one girl who has the 'urge to procreate', but it's a case of 'I know I suck as a person so I'll be a mother'. :rolleyes:

I do have to wonder how many people with kids did so accidentally, but I think that's a rather rude question to ask.
Both our kids are 'accidental' - as I said we wanted to have children but both weren't exactly planned and on schedule ;). If a couple doesn't use pills, accidents do happen.

I hope you mean doting.

I don't know, it's more intrigueing if its not an error

I am not remotely interested in having kids, and really don't understand why other people want them. My partner would like children, but I'm under no illusions about the amount of work involved or about who would end up doing it, so its not going to happen. Pregnancy sounds pretty abhorant to me too, and again, it would be me doing it, so no thanks. When I was younger, people often said that I'd change my mind as I got older, met the right person, whatever, but I'm pushing 40 now (nearly out of danger :)) and still fail to see the appeal of breeding.

It's well past 1 AM, we're on a second shift of trying to convince our daughter it's sleepy time, and in some parts of the world people celebrate the birth of a certain guy whose mother nobody asked if she wants to go through all this... So it's a good moment to ask: what's in it? Why have children?
I know not many NS'ers have them, but it's better to ask yourself that question before than after, you know.

For me, it's like that:

CONS
1. We essentially lost our freedom. We wanted to go places, see Paris in April, that sort of thing, now we have to wait until kids are big enough to be left on emergency life support (granny) or to go with us (but that's just not the same altogether).
2. Until the end of our lives we'll be dreading in the depths of our hearts - are they OK, aren't they in danger, what if somebody hurts them etc...
3. We have lots of expenses we never thought about earlier, from the ridiculous amounts of diapers to the college fund.
4. We have to spend a lot of time doing things that we never found appealing. Let's don't go into gory details, they involve human digestion byproducts.
5. We are changed. For example, I can't watch without getting all worked up movies where children are in danger or hurt. Another example - yesterday I mindlessly ate a piece of banana my daughter held for a moment in her mouth and then handed to me. I'd never do such thing before, it's disgusting. But I did it without even thinking about it, only then realizing how I have changed.
6. The world around us has changed - it has now a huge, very important part that can be used to manipulate us to do what we'd never do otherwise.

But it all actually boils down to point 1. We lost our freedom. That's what love does to us - it makes us dependant. Vulnerable.

PROS
1. We have more happy moments each day than before. Our daughter is joy to behold even when throwing a tantrum.
2. The world has become a much more beautiful place. :D
3. We have bigger family. Bigger = safer, not only in the future, even now for example if one of us dies, the others have a better chance to survive the loss and carry on.
4. We have a lot more goals in life, well that's not necessarily a good thing if you want a dolce vita, but I'm talking of us here.
5. We have more common points, things we both relate to similarily (but that comes with a near-cancelling disclaimer - having children to fix failing relationship is a BAD idea).
6. Our relatives like us more and are more tolerant to our faults.

The pros are more varied, but what they actually boil down to is: we have more love in our lives.

What do you think? Are you going to breed and overpopulate Mother Earth?

Meh pros and cons aside, we have children to propergate life, and continue our genetic stock.

For natural reasons(no pun intended) humans have the natural urge to reproduce, even it's only self-conscious. It seems to me that a lot of people don't want to think about it or are in denial that they will someday. Statistically, most people have children, so I just accept the fact that I'm going to have kids someday. Children can be nice sometimes, but I find them a little annoying. I think it'll be a little hard before they're ten, but when they're older and more mature I think I'll appreciate their company more.

For natural reasons(no pun intended) humans have the natural urge to reproduce, even it's only self-conscious. It seems to me that a lot of people don't want to think about it or are in denial that they will someday.

I like to think that we're freer from our instincts than that, at least some of us.

I like to think that we're freer from our instincts than that, at least some of us.

Why would anybody want to be free of their instincts?

I will likely want at least one son to raise when I get older, I'm pretty sure I've fathered at least two already.

I'm scared of having a daughter though. I'd be too overprotective. With a son you only have to worry about one penis, with a daughter, you got to worry about billions.

Not before I get to be in my mid-30's at the earliest anyway.
The fuck? And that is somehow... cool?

cons

you have children


pros

sometimes they are entertaining, which actually, you should probably get a cat.


yeah.
I don't think I can make a proper pro/con list about my kids, they are here, they won't go away, they make me crazy, I love them.
Yeah. I'll get a cat.

I've never been crazy about children. Sure, they can be cute (NERVUN's son is cute) or amusing but most of the time I find they're simply a nuisance, eating up all your time and energy and nerves. And seeing how I'm past 30 now and all my friends are having kids left and right and my biological clock still isn't ticking, I'm pretty sure I won't change my mind somewhere down the line.

Yeah. I'll get a cat.

I've never been crazy about children. Sure, they can be cute (NERVUN's son is cute) or amusing but most of the time I find they're simply a nuisance, eating up all your time and energy and nerves. And seeing how I'm past 30 now and all my friends are having kids left and right and my biological clock still isn't ticking, I'm pretty sure I won't change my mind somewhere down the line.

http://lunareye.net/images/cats/Piccolo_547_4736-2.jpg

*gets WYTYG a cat*

I've never been crazy about children. Sure, they can be cute (NERVUN's son is cute) or amusing but most of the time I find they're simply a nuisance, eating up all your time and energy and nerves.
Please don't take it as an attempt to change your (or anyone elses) mind – I realize different people have different priorities. But your post made me realize that nobody in this thread mentioned among the pros perhaps the single most wonderful thing about raising children, and I have only touched upon the matter writing about having more goals in life.
Yeah, children can be cute, amusing, annoying and sometimes downright cruel. What they truly are, if we dare to look at them that way, is the biggest creative challenge in existence. Nothing comes close to raising another human being in terms of complexity and possible rewards.
I never really liked challenges, yet I'm looking forward to this one with eager anticipation.

Please don't take it as an attempt to change your (or anyone elses) mind – I realize different people have different priorities. But your post made me realize that nobody in this thread mentioned among the pros perhaps the single most wonderful thing about raising children, and I have only touched upon the matter writing about having more goals in life.
Yeah, children can be cute, amusing, annoying and sometimes downright cruel. What they truly are, if we dare to look at them that way, is the biggest creative challenge in existence. Nothing comes close to raising another human being in terms of complexity and possible rewards.
I never really liked challenges, yet I'm looking forward to this one with eager anticipation.

Raising children is terrifying and stressful. What if you screw them up? What if you give them a complex about something? What if you aren't affectionate enough with them when they are 2 months old and they grow up and become serial killers? Are you feeding them enough? Are you feeding them too much? Are you feeding them the right things? What if you are dooming them to a life of obesity because you bought the wrong juice? Are they watching too much TV? Are they reading enough? Are they reading too much? Do they have good friends? Are they confident? Are they overconfident? Was she coughing? Is it a cold? the flu? pneumonia?

Raising children is terrifying and stressful. What if you screw them up? What if you give them a complex about something? What if you aren't affectionate enough with them when they are 2 months old and they grow up and become serial killers? Are you feeding them enough? Are you feeding them too much? Are you feeding them the right things? What if you are dooming them to a life of obesity because you bought the wrong juice? Are they watching too much TV? Are they reading enough? Are they reading too much? Do they have good friends? Are they confident? Are they overconfident? Was she coughing? Is it a cold? the flu? pneumonia?

For some people sure that is certainly true.

I'm in the Larkin camp here though, you can stop worrying about half of your list once you realise, that yes you are going to screw them up in some way anyway, and that not a one of us is perfect, and the bottom line is they are each their own person.

Sure my folx can take some of the blame for the multitude of ways I have been screwed up, or the many complexes I have, but they didn't really make me this way(excepting the genes of course) not really.

Now of course I aint saying that you will never be scarred shitless for or on behalf of your kids, but I am saying that it need not be too stressful, once you realise the limts of your parental powers!

I'd rather not take parenting advice from you, thanks. ;)

Hey hey, no advice there, only words of disagreement!:D

For some people sure that is certainly true.

I'm in the Larkin camp here though, you can stop worrying about half of your list once you realise, that yes you are going to screw them up in some way anyway, and that not a one of us is perfect, and the bottom line is they are each their own person.

Sure my folx can take some of the blame for the multitude of ways I have been screwed up, or the many complexes I have, but they didn't really make me this way(excepting the genes of course) not really.

Now of course I aint saying that you will never be scarred shitless for or on behalf of your kids, but I am saying that it need not be too stressful, once you realise the limts of your parental powers!

I'd rather not take parenting advice from you, thanks. ;)

Hey hey, no advice there, only words of disagreement!:D

well, I suppose I can't screw them up more than I was screwed up by my parents.

well, I suppose I can't screw them up more than I was screwed up by my parents.

Heheh well that is open for debate!

No really I guess perhaps, not. That can perhaps be one saving grace of having a screwed up childhood, that you know how you where screwed up and so apply different childrearing technicqes than your folx did.

Raising children is terrifying and stressful.
I'd say you worry too much. OTOH, you have more experience than me, so maybe I worry too little?

I'd say you worry too much. OTOH, you have more experience than me, so maybe I worry too little?

I have more to worry about than most people.

Why would anybody want to be free of their instincts?

If they're unneeded, and they conflict with what someone wants, then they're having detrimental effects.

I'm in the Larkin camp here though, you can stop worrying about half of your list once you realise, that yes you are going to screw them up in some way anyway, and that not a one of us is perfect, and the bottom line is they are each their own person.

Yes. All my worries are gone. Thank you.

I hope you mean doting.

... yeah... that too. ;)

Raising children is terrifying and stressful. What if you screw them up? What if you give them a complex about something? What if you aren't affectionate enough with them when they are 2 months old and they grow up and become serial killers? Are you feeding them enough? Are you feeding them too much? Are you feeding them the right things? What if you are dooming them to a life of obesity because you bought the wrong juice? Are they watching too much TV? Are they reading enough? Are they reading too much? Do they have good friends? Are they confident? Are they overconfident? Was she coughing? Is it a cold? the flu? pneumonia?

Hey, no worries. Parents can affect a child's values and beliefs, but not their fundamental personalities, which are largely genetic. If they become serial killers, it probably wasn't your fault.

Hey, no worries. Parents can affect a child's values and beliefs, but not their fundamental personalities, which are largely genetic. If they become serial killers, it probably wasn't your fault.

are you kidding? then its even MORE your fault because you either passed on your own faulty "serial killer genes" or picked the wrong man to have kids with because your children got HIS "serial killer genes".

every possible thing that can be wrong with your child ends up being your fault. every possible thing that goes right is either an accident or their own hard work.

and its not like you can ever rest on your laurels. your 5 year old might be a paragon of 5-year-old-ness but be a beast of a 6 year old. you might be great at the school aged kid stuff but suck when it comes to the teen years. there would seem to be limitless chances to do a bad job of raising your child. you can't know that youve done a good job until s/he is 30 and all settled down (i say 30 because a friend of mine had a fine son turn into a crack addict thief in his late 20s)

Hey, no worries. Parents can affect a child's values and beliefs, but not their fundamental personalities, which are largely genetic. If they become serial killers, it probably wasn't your fault.

I don't think so. my two brothers have families and their children are different. one set are nice and behaved...

the other... well...

are you kidding? then its even MORE your fault because you either passed on your own faulty "serial killer genes" or picked the wrong man to have kids with because your children got HIS "serial killer genes".

every possible thing that can be wrong with your child ends up being your fault. every possible thing that goes right is either an accident or their own hard work.

and its not like you can ever rest on your laurels. your 5 year old might be a paragon of 5-year-old-ness but be a beast of a 6 year old. you might be great at the school aged kid stuff but suck when it comes to the teen years. there would seem to be limitless chances to do a bad job of raising your child. you can't know that youve done a good job until s/he is 30 and all settled down (i say 30 because a friend of mine had a fine son turn into a crack addict thief in his late 20s)
^this, and if you screw up enough to annoy them but not enough to actually screw them up, they will blame their flaws on you and any successes are "in spite of you"

also, everything is the mother's fault, so it's double worse for women. Stay home and you were over protective, work and you abandoned them, have time for yourself and you are selfish, devote every waking hour to them and you are making them into people who will never really understand a give/take relationship.

^this, and if you screw up enough to annoy them but not enough to actually screw them up, they will blame their flaws on you and any successes are "in spite of you"

also, everything is the mother's fault, so it's double worse for women. Stay home and you were over protective, work and you abandoned them, have time for yourself and you are selfish, devote every waking hour to them and you are making them into people who will never really understand a give/take relationship.

ssoooo true.

and if you manage to not do those things that will screw up your kids AND they manage not to screw themselves up, you STILL have the problem of random disaster from others....like getting hit by a drunk driver on the way home from school or having some bad man slip something into a drink while she isnt looking.

if it werent for biological instinct, it would be too horrifying a thing to ever consider becoming a mother.

also, everything is the mother's fault, so it's double worse for women. Stay home and you were over protective, work and you abandoned them, have time for yourself and you are selfish, devote every waking hour to them and you are making them into people who will never really understand a give/take relationship.

Speaking as a former child... I never followed this school of thought... just to let you know.

ssoooo true.

and if you manage to not do those things that will screw up your kids AND they manage not to screw themselves up, you STILL have the problem of random disaster from others....like getting hit by a drunk driver on the way home from school or having some bad man slip something into a drink while she isnt looking.

if it werent for biological instinct, it would be too horrifying a thing to ever consider becoming a mother.

as much as I worry about my own flaws/parenting disasters, the thought of the children that are being brought up right now......:eek: my kids are going to have to deal with even more crap than I do when they are adults.

I'm planning on adopting when I get older (I'm 19 now). I don't really care about "genetic legacy" or whatever, and the world's already overpopulated as it is. Rather than make this situation worse, I'd prefer to try to improve the situation and make one child's life better (heh heh).

I'm planning on adopting when I get older (I'm 19 now). I don't really care about "genetic legacy" or whatever, and the world's already overpopulated as it is. Rather than make this situation worse, I'd prefer to try to improve the situation and make one child's life better (heh heh).

my friend was adopted and always told me she was "more loved" than I was because her parents had to struggle to get her, whereas my parents got drunk and accidentally ended up with me......somehow I always thought she was right.