NationStates Jolt Archive

What are people's views on the topic?

Do you believe that there is a heaven and hell; all are actions are judged; that there is such a thing as "right" and "wrong"? Or do you believe that we are alone and make of life what we will.

Before we start I should clarify something:

I AM AN ATHEIST.

And before a get pro-biblers yelling "omg you is so going to burn in teh fires of hell", I've had to learn a considerable amount about religion in order to make that decision. The common misconception about Atheism is that it implies lazyness/lack of proper moral functioning.

To have a dicussion about religion, one must not result to petty name calling. And please, no one saying "If there is a god, and I believe, I get into heaven. If not then what have I lost" - people who treat religion as a get-into-heaven-free card really shit me.

Atheism is also a realistic position to take on the subject. Many famous philosophers argued in it's favour. Then again, many argued against it.

So what do people think?

Since there is no conclusive and definitive proof of the supernatural in regards to religion, people are free to choose to believe in whatever they like as long as it doesn't infringe on the freedom of others.

Since there is no conclusive and definitive proof of the supernatural in regards to religion people have absolutely no reason to believe in it unless there is actual evidence presented that seems to sway towards someone believing it.

The only reason people believe in it now is because their parents or community might be religious and it makes it seem like it is entrenched and "the truth" in the same way that racism and political views are entrenched.

Likewise, there's no reason for a Christian Person not to be a Buddhist if they don't have evidence for either logicially they should be both....

*expects flames against self* :upyours:

Since there is no conclusive and definitive proof of the supernatural in regards to religion people have absolutely no reason to believe in it unless there is actual evidence presented that seems to sway towards someone believing it.

The only reason people believe in it now is because their parents or community might be religious and it makes it seem like it is entrenched and "the truth" in the same way that racism and political views are entrenched.

Likewise, there's no reason for a Christian Person not to be a Buddhist if they don't have evidence for either logicially they should be both....

*expects flames against self* :upyours:

No flame.

So what you're saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that what we believe is a creation of the society in which we live, and our upbringing?

I'll say there's no definitive evidence of "nothingness".
There! I said it! Now leave me alone!

I'll say there's no definitive evidence of "nothingness".
There! I said it! Now leave me alone!

But what does that imply in terms of content? By the same token there is no definitive evidence of "somethingness"...

Religion is a waste of time.

I'm an atheist. I believe you'll find most everyone here is besides some notable exceptions, like Zilam. That or they're extremist trolls.

But yeah. Religion for me is like forcing me to be ignorant of the world as I see it. I can't accept that.

I have no idea. I frequently ponder the whole idea of god(s), hell, heaven, the soul and so on. I have resigned myself to living with uncertainty. I don't know if there is life after, there's no proof of it (all the "evidence" is anecdotal and suspect), neither is there proof that it doesn't exist. Since I can force neither faith nor lack of faith, I can only be uncertain, and hope for the best.

Do you believe that there is a heaven and hell;

No.

all are actions are judged;

No.

that there is such a thing as "right" and "wrong"?

Absolutely. But there is no supernatural judge who prescribes reward and punishment based on them.

I personally agree with the above guy. However, there are some things that simply are not explainable. I would mention a few, but I'd be getting off the topic of religion. ;)

God exists, Christ is the Messiah. Heaven exists. Hell exists, but it is not a place of eternal damnation but rather a place where souls go to die. Et cetera.

God exists eh? So, tell me, does he care about the human race? Or the earth for that matter?

What are people's views on the topic?

Hmmm, personally, though I practice (RARELY) one of the major religions, I rationalize the teachings,... take what's good, throw away most of the nonsense, keeping "socialist moral value" verses and what works in today's multicultural society.

Do you believe that there is a heaven and hell;

Oh yes indeed, but not the ones that were written about,... mine's kinda like a personal heaven and hell for everybody.

all are actions are judged;

What's the point if someone's not keeping the scores,... ultimately you're only judged by yourself,... I say EVERYONE has their purpose on life, if you think you do what you think is right for you (even as diagonally opposite of religion of being an atheist) you'll do just fine.

that there is such a thing as "right" and "wrong"?

I don't see that those values are set in stone,... they evolve as we evolve our world view.

Or do you believe that we are alone and make of life what we will.

We are not alone,... but we make life of what we will.

And no, there is no evidence that there isn't one but neither is there evidence that there is. And proving something exists is much easier than proving it doesn't. All the believers have to do is produce said deity whereas nonbelievers would have to search every nook and cranny in the universe to prove there isn't. So, why have the believers not been able to produce any of the deities?

I would ask those who believe in a deity this question:

If the deity you believe in is real and all the others are pure bunk, why do people who believe in the others say just the opposite?

For atheists, that one is easy -- they are all bunk.

But what does that imply in terms of content? By the same token there is no definitive evidence of "somethingness"...

Oh, i dunno, it didn't have anymore context than me finally capitulating to the voices.
By all means, continue with your line, it interests me. :)

God exists, Christ is the Messiah. Heaven exists. Hell exists, but it is not a place of eternal damnation but rather a place where souls go to die. Et cetera.
The et cetera in this line, of course, would be The Apocrypha.
:rolleyes:

it seems to me that there are 2 distinct issues here.

1) an issue of metaphysics and ontology: does god exists (god a creator)?

to this we might say that there are compelling reasons to think not. Most of these are conceptual problems eg given that time is a property of the universe how could God exist before the universe exists? given space is a property of the universe where did god exist? given that some form of materialism about the mind is true (ooooooooooo controversy), where is God's brain and body?

2) even if god exists should our morality depend on his/her/its will?

this divides into 2 sub problems

2i) is God good?

to which we seem compelled to reply, "no". Think of the occurence of large scale disasters where the bad far outweighs the good (eg the boxing day tsumani), its hard to imagine a good God letting those happen.

2ii) if god turns out to be good, should our morality depend on its will?

there are many reasons to say no, i'll just mention the most compelling. If goodness depends on Gods will then the idea of a good God is self defeating as below.

being good is being consistent with god's will.
in that case it seems god could will anything to be good even random murder.
but most people think god wouldn't will such a thing.
why not?
because god is good.
but above we said that being good is being consistent with gods will.
so our reason for thinking that god won't will random murder becomes that god is consitent with his own will.

does everyone see the circle here?

anyway the point is that even if there is a creator god it makes no sense to submit morality to its authority

it seems to me that there are 2 distinct issues here.

1) an issue of metaphysics and ontology: does god exists (god a creator)?

to this we might say that there are compelling reasons to think not. Most of these are conceptual problems eg given that time is a property of the universe how could God exist before the universe exists? given space is a property of the universe where did god exist? given that some form of materialism about the mind is true (ooooooooooo controversy), where is God's brain and body?

2) even if god exists should our morality depend on his/her/its will?

this divides into 2 sub problems

2i) is God good?

to which we seem compelled to reply, "no". Think of the occurence of large scale disasters where the bad far outweighs the good (eg the boxing day tsumani), its hard to imagine a good God letting those happen.

2ii) if god turns out to be good, should our morality depend on its will?

there are many reasons to say no, i'll just mention the most compelling. If goodness depends on Gods will then the idea of a good God is self defeating as below.

being good is being consistent with god's will.
in that case it seems god could will anything to be good even random murder.
but most people think god wouldn't will such a thing.
why not?
because god is good.
but above we said that being good is being consistent with gods will.
so our reason for thinking that god won't will random murder becomes that god is consitent with his own will.

does everyone see the circle here?

anyway the point is that even if there is a creator god it makes no sense to submit morality to its authority

Nice first post, Socraton. Welcome to NS, under the assumption you're not a puppet or something of the like.

i'm only not a puppett because i have free will :-)

What are people's views on the topic?


Secular humanism describes a world view with the following elements and principles:


Need to test beliefs - A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each individual and not simply accepted on faith.
Reason, evidence, scientific method - Commitment to the use of critical reason, factual evidence, and scientific methods of inquiry, rather than faith and mysticism, in seeking solutions to human problems and answers to important human questions.
Fulfillment, growth, creativity - A primary concern with fulfillment, growth, and creativity for both the individual and humankind in general.
Search for truth - A constant search for objective truth, with the understanding that new knowledge and experience constantly alter our imperfect perception of it.
This life - A concern for this life and a commitment to making it meaningful through better understanding of ourselves, our history, our intellectual and artistic achievements, and the outlooks of those who differ from us.
Ethics - A search for viable individual, social and political principles of ethical conduct, judging them on their ability to enhance human well-being and individual responsibility.
Building a better world - A conviction that with reason, an open exchange of ideas, good will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world for ourselves and our children.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism

Shimo Kori (leader of Shimokorihi): I guess you could call me an agnostic or maybe a spirtuall atheist. Still, I really don't care what people believe (just check the motto of my nation "As long as it harms none, do as you will".)

For example, if you don't like gay marriage, fine, marry someone of the oppisite sex. Heck, even voice this opinion if you want. But the minute you try to force you opinion on everyone else, that's when I'll get seriously angry with you! I mean, if hell really does exist (not to say for sure if it exists or not) why would it matter to you if someone else goes to hell?

Still, a secondary motto of mine is that "this world (actually) needs more love and understanding, less nukes (and war). Besides, for all the christians out there, although I, personally, don't believe Jesus is divine; he 'does' have a point with at least some of his teachings. How about this one "heretics love to pray on street corners" or (this one's a classic) "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone". The way I see it if God (or YHWH, I remember hearing some where that in Jewish and Christian religions, it's a sin to say "The Lord"'s name) really can see and hear everything, then he'd know if you're praying to him or not no matter if you're in church or by your bedside. And no, I don't think praying in public gives you spritual brownie points or anything. As for the second one, we...are...not...perfect! Each and every one of us has commited 'some' form of sin (yes, even me). As a matter of fact, I read somewhere (begin paraphrasing... now) that Jesus hung out with the devote 'and' sinners alike, not caring who's what and saving his condemnations for those who would point out the sins of others and act as though they were 'holier-than-thou' attitude. Sounds a lot like the so-called 'Christians' running for, if not already holding, public office doesn't it?

...Holy crap! I've been ranting again.

Ningen Han (Shimokorihi head of international relations): Shimo-sama, I would be surprised if nobody flamed you over this.

Akurei Han (Shimokorihi Top Military Commander): Whatever, we'll just use a Fire-Hurler and shoot at back at them. *stands next to said Fire-Hurler

Shimo Kori: Akurei, did you steal that from the Panserbjørne?

Akurei Han: What!? You mean the Armoured Bears?! I just borrowed it...

Shimo Kori: Borrowed it?!

Akurei Han: Without asking.

Shimo Kori: ...that's stealing, you know that right?

Ningen Han: Was that a reference to some anime!?

Shimo Kori: Nope, a novel. Northern Lights, first book of the His Dark Materials trilogy. Otherwise known as "The Golden Compass".

Ningen Han: This post is going to offend so many people!! ...oh no...

Akurei Han (singing while flashing the SUperFInger): If 'any' of you are 'offended', stick your head in a bucket of sh...

Shimo Kori (also singing but flashing the archers salute with both hands; interupting Akurei): Shaving cream! Be nice and clean! Shave everyday and you'll always look keen!
(Quack! Quack!) (Song lyrics from Dr. Demento's updated version of "Shaving Cream")

Shimo Kori (leader of Shimokorihi): I guess you could call me an agnostic or maybe a spirtuall atheist. Still, I really don't care what people believe (just check the motto of my nation "As long as it harms none, do as you will".)

For example, if you don't like gay marriage, fine, marry someone of the oppisite sex. Heck, even voice this opinion if you want. But the minute you try to force you opinion on everyone else, that's when I'll get seriously angry with you! I mean, if hell really does exist (not to say for sure if it exists or not) why would it matter to you if someone else goes to hell?

Still, a secondary motto of mine is that "this world (actually) needs more love and understanding, less nukes (and war). Besides, for all the christians out there, although I, personally, don't believe Jesus is divine; he 'does' have a point with at least some of his teachings. How about this one "heretics love to pray on street corners" or (this one's a classic) "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone". The way I see it if God (or YHWH, I remember hearing some where that in Jewish and Christian religions, it's a sin to say "The Lord"'s name) really can see and hear everything, then he'd know if you're praying to him or not no matter if you're in church or by your bedside. And no, I don't think praying in public gives you spritual brownie points or anything. As for the second one, we...are...not...perfect! Each and every one of us has commited 'some' form of sin (yes, even me). As a matter of fact, I read somewhere (begin paraphrasing... now) that Jesus hung out with the devote 'and' sinners alike, not caring who's what and saving his condemnations for those who would point out the sins of others and act as though they were 'holier-than-thou' attitude. Sounds a lot like the so-called 'Christians' running for, if not already holding, public office doesn't it?

...Holy crap! I've been ranting again.

Ningen Han (Shimokorihi head of international relations): Shimo-sama, I would be surprised if nobody flamed you over this.

Akurei Han (Shimokorihi Top Military Commander): Whatever, we'll just use a Fire-Hurler and shoot at back at them. *stands next to said Fire-Hurler

Shimo Kori: Akurei, did you steal that from the Panserbjørne?

Akurei Han: What!? You mean the Armoured Bears?! I just borrowed it...

Shimo Kori: Borrowed it?!

Akurei Han: Without asking.

Shimo Kori: ...that's stealing, you know that right?

Ningen Han: Was that a reference to some anime!?

Shimo Kori: Nope, a novel. Northern Lights, first book of the His Dark Materials trilogy. Otherwise known as "The Golden Compass".

Ningen Han: This post is going to offend so many people!! ...oh no...

Akurei Han (singing while flashing the SUperFInger): If 'any' of you are 'offended', stick your head in a bucket of sh...

Shimo Kori (also singing but flashing the archers salute with both hands; interupting Akurei): Shaving cream! Be nice and clean! Shave everyday and you'll always look keen!
(Quack! Quack!) (Song lyrics from Dr. Demento's updated version of "Shaving Cream")

Relationships indeed! :confused:

I AM AN ATHEIST.
ME TOO.
HIGH FIVE!


IMO, if there were an entity passing ultimate judgment on individuals, and this were known beforehand to individuals being judged, it would subvert morality by making threat of retribution or reward a surrogate for moral motivation. That itself would render the concept of moral judgment moot (or at least weaken it to the point of insignificance), since doing the "right thing" is a lot easier with a stick behind you and a carrot in front. Thus, judgment is arbitrary and meaningless. Same goes for Karma.

An Age-Old philosophy:

There are evils in the world that an all-loving, all-powerful God could put right.

Is God willing to help, but unable?
Then he is not all-powerful.

Is God able to help, but unwilling?
Then he is malevolent.

Is God neither willing, nor able to help?
Then why call him God?

Is God neither willing, nor able to help?
Then why call him God?

Because I can :D

I believe what I believe; you are as free to believe what you believe; belief does not imply that a person is automatically good, and unbelief does not imply automatic "badness".

Likewise, there's no reason for a Christian Person not to be a Buddhist if they don't have evidence for either logicially they should be both....

That doesn't follow logically. You might as well say that a person who likes vanilla ice cream also should automatically like chocolate and pistachio and cherry chocolate chunk.

it seems to me that there are 2 distinct issues here.

1) an issue of metaphysics and ontology: does god exists (god a creator)?

to this we might say that there are compelling reasons to think not. Most of these are conceptual problems eg given that time is a property of the universe how could God exist before the universe exists? given space is a property of the universe where did god exist? given that some form of materialism about the mind is true (ooooooooooo controversy), where is God's brain and body?

2) even if god exists should our morality depend on his/her/its will?

this divides into 2 sub problems

2i) is God good?

to which we seem compelled to reply, "no". Think of the occurence of large scale disasters where the bad far outweighs the good (eg the boxing day tsumani), its hard to imagine a good God letting those happen.

2ii) if god turns out to be good, should our morality depend on its will?

there are many reasons to say no, i'll just mention the most compelling. If goodness depends on Gods will then the idea of a good God is self defeating as below.

being good is being consistent with god's will.
in that case it seems god could will anything to be good even random murder.
but most people think god wouldn't will such a thing.
why not?
because god is good.
but above we said that being good is being consistent with gods will.
so our reason for thinking that god won't will random murder becomes that god is consitent with his own will.

does everyone see the circle here?

anyway the point is that even if there is a creator god it makes no sense to submit morality to its authority

Very nice first post indeed. Welcome:D

As for myself I guess you could technically call me agnostic, because the way I see it, neither side has provided satisfactory evidence. Thus I find that if one must make a choice of faith he is as justified to chose theism or atheism as he pleases.

However I would describe myself as an atheist. In acknowledging that there is no way to tell, I see that the burden of proof lies with the deists, and thus I choose to believe that God does not exist. Sure, he MIGHT, but it is likelier that he doesn't.

i'm only not a puppett because i have free will :-)
Well you could argue you don't have freewill as in Determinism, where everything you do can be traced back to the beginning of the Universe by cause and effect(see Pierre Laplase and his demon) or you have your actions determined up to a point but you're still free to choose some things Compatability.

An Age-Old philosophy:

There are evils in the world that an all-loving, all-powerful God could put right.

Is God willing to help, but unable?
Then he is not all-powerful.

Is God able to help, but unwilling?
Then he is malevolent.

Is God neither willing, nor able to help?
Then why call him God?

Maybe there is no "God" as such, maybe we humans are the closest to being considered God.
Or there Could be a creator not necessarily a God watching us then taking notes so he/she doesn't make the same mistakes.
If there is no God and assuming that the Big bang theory is correct, then who or what created the universe?
Consider this.
P1) Imagine a father leaving his child being beaten to death.
P2) Most fathers would jump in despite the consequences.
P3)A father who stands back and lets bad things happen is at best negligent or maybe cruel.
C) God should not be called our father, rather he or she's true nature is unknown to us.
What inferences can you draw from God by looking around the world:not many. So although there could, and i stress could, be a God because there is little evidence on Earth perhaps this is meant to be so. I understand that the idea of a God is a little hard to grasp, often God becomes a "God of the Gaps", to prove strange anomolies some people would say God did them. Increasingly in this modern world there is less and less room for God to be considered to exist. Of course as others have said above perhaps God is evil.

P1) All knowing, all loving, if God existed would not allow suffering.
P2) There is suffering.
C) Therefore God does not exist or maybe God hates you.
Maybe we're being punished because we broke "Gods" planet, so we deserve to die.

So these questions i've offered crude answers can be considered metaphysics or the "big questions of life", but it's unlikely that we or certainly i can answer these questions properly, until after death or some sort of "miracle".

that Eris lady seems nice..

What are people's views on the topic?

Do you believe that there is a heaven and hell; all are actions are judged; that there is such a thing as "right" and "wrong"? Or do you believe that we are alone and make of life what we will.

<SNIP>

So what do people think?

I think there are more than the two options you listed.

that Eris lady seems nice..

Except when she's not.

I don't think religion is such a bad thing, but its not for me. Organized religion is far too restricting for my liking and I refuse to believe that God has so many foolish rules for us (homosexuality is bad, don't drink alcohol/eat pork, etc.).

I don't necessarily have a religion (although Unitarian Universalism looks great to me), but I do have my own spiritual views. In my opinion, the religions of the world are all correct and incorrect. I believe the Truth (the sole truth about life, God, reality, the universe) is only one truth and every religion looks at it from a different perspective. Here's the example I like to use:

There are four people looking into a box-shaped building from four separate windows on each wall. None of them can see everything in the building from their perspective, but they can see certain things. As a result, they have a certain idea of what the building looks like on the inside. However, if all of their observations are combined - we can have a MUCH stronger idea of what the building really looks like. The way I see it, every religion is another perspective of whats inside in the building and I don't want to be stuck looking in from one window. Thats ignorant and foolish. I'll keep looking around so I can get a good view of whats there.

Here's what I've determined for myself so far: there is a transcendent God. There can be many, I don't know, but there is one. We all have souls. I believe that there is life beyond death. Right now I'm leaning towards believing in reincarnation, with the ultimate goal of reaching enlightenment (which would then lead our souls to something of a heaven). I don't know if I believe in Hell, though.

I also believe that religion and science are not at odds. To really find the answers to life, I think both perspectives must join forces to complement each other. Science should be the study of God's great blueprint for reality.

Thats about it in a nutshell - I still have a long way to go to determine my beliefs.

i'm only not a puppett because i have free will :-)

Good, good. I'm sure more than just the one poster will attempt to take you to task about that. :)

Well you could argue you don't have freewill as in Determinism, where everything you do can be traced back to the beginning of the Universe by cause and effect(see Pierre Laplase and his demon) or you have your actions determined up to a point but you're still free to choose some things Compatability.

determinism isn't incompatible with free will. All that needs to be the case is that i am a significant cause of my own action (not even the exclusive cause). Now, how do cause my actions? THATs an interesting question :-)

Well you could argue you don't have freewill as in Determinism, where everything you do can be traced back to the beginning of the Universe by cause and effect(see Pierre Laplase and his demon) or you have your actions determined up to a point but you're still free to choose some things Compatability.

well free will isn't incompatible with determinism. It just requires some reconceptualisation of what free will is. rather than seeing an action as only free if it is imposed by me from outside the more ordinary causal chain we take an action as free if i am the significant cause of it. this places the person inside the normal order of things (ie it rejects dualism). Now, how do i cause an action? Thats an interesting one... :-)

sorry didn't mean to do that 2wice, 2nd versions better anyway

Well, I'm going to try to live forever, but if I can't achieve that...

...see you all in hell. We can have an NS meetup; just stop by the 4th circle and I should be there, all things equal. Just don't get crushed by Plutus.