NationStates Jolt Archive

Christian groups how have taken some much needed rest from haranguing loving gay families who want the state to acknowledge their children and their never ending crusade against science, have once again set their targets on children's fantasy.

The argument is a was trodden one, witchcraft, sorcery, etcetera, but with some lovely twists. This time, it seems, the horrible humanist author of The Golden Compass went as far to have the children kill God in the final of the trilogy.

And here I was thinking that Christians cornered the markets on killing the Almighty in fantasy books. One might draw the conclusion that this dispute is less one of religious animosity, and more so copyright infringement.

Old news, friend.

Theres been a coupla threads already.

isn't it odd this only came up when the movie was released ;)

isn't it odd this only came up when the movie was released ;)

What?
You think Religious Fundamentalists are literate?

What?
You think Religious Fundamentalists are literate?

the bible doesn't have any pictures :(

the bible doesn't have any pictures :(
http://www.graciouscall.org/coloring-epic_events_book-default.shtml :)

the bible doesn't have any pictures :(

They just use different versions. (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/664524006?item_no=81439&netp_id=146524&event=EBRN&item_code=WW&view=details#curr)

the bible doesn't have any pictures :(

why do you think preachers have so much pull?

What?
You think Religious Fundamentalists are literate?

What?
You think they're NOT?

Religious fundamentalism =/= illiteracy

What?
You think they're NOT?

Religious fundamentalism =/= illiteracy

But illiteracy does make it easier to manipulate the masses and whip them into a fundamentalist frenzy. Take a look at the Middle East as an example.

the bible doesn't have any pictures :(

I find these comments to be very insulting. I am literate and, in some cases, quite a but more intelligent than many people who profess not to believe in God. I do admit that the griping and complaining about matters such as this are rather tiresome and i do grow bored of people who insist on being obnoxious for God. Comments such as that ought to be left in religious circles. There are people who enjoy that book as a work of fiction and, to my knowledge, there aren't any cult followings that profess it to be their "Bible", so there is really no need for anyone who professes to be a Christian to get worked up about a movie. If they have any sort of problem with it, they should simply not see the movie nor should they read the book.

This time, it seems, the horrible humanist author of The Golden Compass went as far to have the children kill God in the final of the trilogy.

It'd be neat if it were true, but they didn't.

I find these comments to be very insulting. I am literate and, in some cases, quite a but more intelligent than many people who profess not to believe in God. I do admit that the griping and complaining about matters such as this are rather tiresome and i do grow bored of people who insist on being obnoxious for God. Comments such as that ought to be left in religious circles. There are people who enjoy that book as a work of fiction and, to my knowledge, there aren't any cult followings that profess it to be their "Bible", so there is really no need for anyone who professes to be a Christian to get worked up about a movie. If they have any sort of problem with it, they should simply not see the movie nor should they read the book.
Quite. A lot of atheists are extemely smug, which is a bit of a shame, really. Nice to hear a Christian's point of view on the subject.

Quite. A lot of atheists are extemely smug, which is a bit of a shame, really. Nice to hear a Christian's point of view on the subject.

Speaking of which, in before the fassturbation begins.

Honestly, it's just fiction. If Christians are honestly worried that something make-believe will undermine and destroy a centuries old religion then maybe there's something wrong with it to begin with. If you're going to tell other religious followers (namely Muslims) to get a thicker skin, it's Physician Heal Thyself Time.

What?
You think they're NOT?

Religious fundamentalism =/= illiteracy
You think I'm being SERIOUS?



I find these comments to be very insulting. I am literate and, in some cases, quite a but more intelligent than many people who profess not to believe in God.

I find that people are only really insulted when they know what is said is true and cannot accept it.

By the way, 'bit' is spelled with an 'i', if that is what you were going for.

I find that people are only really insulted when they know what is said is true and cannot accept it.

By the way, 'bit' is spelled with an 'i', if that is what you were going for.
And I find you to be a collosal prick.

Incidentally, pointing out little spelling errors is for twats ;)

Speaking of which, in before the fassturbation begins.
Yus! My word is in use!

And I find you to be a collosal prick.

Incidentally, pointing out little spelling errors is for twats ;)

I think you mean 'colossal'.

Though I think you already know that. ;)

Killing a deity is like killing a level 100 Squall/Ultimecia/RedWizard/etc. No, it's not easy (especially for IRL people!), but you don't have to do anything special.

Killing a deity is like killing a level 100 Squall/Ultimecia/RedWizard/etc. No, it's not easy (especially for IRL people!), but you don't have to do anything special.

Actually Terry Pratchett pointed out a practical way. Get people so deeply involved in the rituals and bureaucracy behind the worship that they forget to worship the actual god and he or she fades out.

That probably wouldn't outright KILL said deity, but it'd certainly reduce them to being a level 20 (or something) Squall/Ultimecia/RedWizard/etc., and that can be taken out with standard methods (swords, guns, Mr. Rogers in a bloodstained sweater...)

It'd be neat if it were true, but they didn't.
for Christ's sake, how thinly do I have to veil sarcasm for you people?

I find these comments to be very insulting. I am literate and, in some cases, quite a but more intelligent than many people who profess not to believe in God. I do admit that the griping and complaining about matters such as this are rather tiresome and i do grow bored of people who insist on being obnoxious for God. Comments such as that ought to be left in religious circles. There are people who enjoy that book as a work of fiction and, to my knowledge, there aren't any cult followings that profess it to be their "Bible", so there is really no need for anyone who professes to be a Christian to get worked up about a movie. If they have any sort of problem with it, they should simply not see the movie nor should they read the book.
There is something wrong if you are functionally literate and believe in fairy tails. I say this as a formerly devout born again Christian. Then, I learned to read and to question. There's comes a point when you realise that common sense is not compatible with what is taught by mainstream Christianity.

The children didn't kill God. Lyra's parent's did. (or rather the very first angel..Metatron).

The children brought sin and knowledge ('Adam and Eve')to the worlds by falling in love in the end thus saving the "Dust".

I actually enjoyed the series (well, Book 1 was kind of drab though).But people are so sensitive nowadays that they will get hyped up over anything. I think it mirrors the Church in that they want to take over the world..and all this outcry and banning over these types of books are adding fuel to the fire-to which they will end up burning themselves.

Christian groups how have taken some much needed rest from haranguing loving gay families who want the state to acknowledge their children and their never ending crusade against science, have once again set their targets on children's fantasy.

The argument is a was trodden one, witchcraft, sorcery, etcetera, but with some lovely twists. This time, it seems, the horrible humanist author of The Golden Compass went as far to have the children kill God in the final of the trilogy.

And here I was thinking that Christians cornered the markets on killing the Almighty in fantasy books. One might draw the conclusion that this dispute is less one of religious animosity, and more so copyright infringement.

During this Christmas season, commemorating the birth of Jesus Christ the Savior of all Mankind, I cannot tell you how pleased I am to see that The Golden Compass has lost its bearings, crashed into the rocks, and sunk with hardly a trace.

The product was a poisoned apple that, thank God, few bit, particularly the children at whom it was directed. Looks like there will be a lot fewer book sales than Phillip Pullman may have hoped for, and thus far fewer opportunities to corrupt the minds of innocent children and indoctrinate them in hatred of Catholicism, atheism and deicide.

Looks like Christophobes will just have to settle for coal in their stockings this year :p

And Pullman: no sequels for you!

A simple, step-by-step process for eliminating unwanted resident deities:

1) Arrest
2) Try in local religious court
3) If necessary, take to local prelate
4) If prelate refuses jurisdictional authority, present case to official that has been referred to
5) If absolutely necessary, return to prelate
6) When offered a chance to extend a full pardon, ask for a different man to be pardoned
7) Hand over large wooden beam to be carried to place of execution
8) Upon reaching place of execution, nail to wooden structure, driving nails inside carpal and tarsal bones.
9) Hang up mocking sign listing crime to go with verbal taunts from the crowd
10) When finished with spectacle, use a heavy lance to pierce heart from low angle, causing death. Save the lance, it now has immeasurable amounts of power. Even if simply psychological, retain to rally masses together for support in future military campaigns.

During this Christmas season, commemorating the birth of Jesus Christ the Savior of all Mankind, I cannot tell you how pleased I am to see that The Golden Compass has lost its bearings, crashed into the rocks, and sunk with hardly a trace.

The product was a poisoned apple that, thank God, few bit, particularly the children at whom it was directed. Looks like there will be a lot fewer book sales than Phillip Pullman may have hoped for, and thus far fewer opportunities to corrupt the minds of innocent children and indoctrinate them in hatred of Catholicism, atheism and deicide.

Looks like Christophobes will just have to settle for coal in their stockings this year :p

And Pullman: no sequels for you!

And in the interest of fairness, here's the other side of the same coin that brings you Fassturbation. Smugness is just as bad coming from religious people as it does from atheists, mmkay?

The children didn't kill God. Lyra's parent's did. (or rather the very first angel..Metatron).

Metatron wasn't the first angel. He wasn't even close.

And in the interest of fairness, here's the other side of the same coin that brings you Fassturbation. Smugness is just as bad coming from religious people as it does from atheists, mmkay?

I'm glad someone pointed that out before me. I wouldn't of been nearly so nice.

During this Christmas season, commemorating the birth of Jesus Christ the Savior of all Mankind, I cannot tell you how pleased I am to see that The Golden Compass has lost its bearings, crashed into the rocks, and sunk with hardly a trace.
Whatever.

$26.1 Million in the US and $14.4 Million in the UK (Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7140131.stm)) may not make Golden Compass the biggest grossing film of all time, but it's still a heck of a lot of money, and it's still at the number one spot on both sides of the Atlantic.

Hardly sunk without a trace.

Moreover, sales of the books have seen a 500% increase (http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2007/dec/07120507.html), propelling it into the USA Today's Top 50 list.

Surprise, surprise, if Church leaders tell folks not to see a movie or read a book, people rush to see the movie and read the book.

Free advertising all the way!

I'm glad someone pointed that out before me. I wouldn't of been nearly so nice.

It's New Mitanni. Cut loose anyways ;)

Actually Terry Pratchett pointed out a practical way. Get people so deeply involved in the rituals and bureaucracy behind the worship that they forget to worship the actual god and he or she fades out.
Small Gods is definitely one of the best Discworld books.

the bible doesn't have any pictures :(

http://thebricktestament.com/
Close enough.

A simple, step-by-step process for eliminating unwanted resident deities:

1) Arrest
2) Try in local religious court
3) If necessary, take to local prelate
4) If prelate refuses jurisdictional authority, present case to official that has been referred to
5) If absolutely necessary, return to prelate
6) When offered a chance to extend a full pardon, ask for a different man to be pardoned
7) Hand over large wooden beam to be carried to place of execution
8) Upon reaching place of execution, nail to wooden structure, driving nails inside carpal and tarsal bones.
9) Hang up mocking sign listing crime to go with verbal taunts from the crowd
10) When finished with spectacle, use a heavy lance to pierce heart from low angle, causing death. Save the lance, it now has immeasurable amounts of power. Even if simply psychological, retain to rally masses together for support in future military campaigns.

That's in the new Worst Case Scenario Surival Handbook Almanac : History book, oddly enough!

Shimo Kori (leader of Shimokorihi): Actually, I've read into the storyline of the His Dark Materials trilogy...

They don't kill 'God', they kill this angel, referred to as "The Authority", who was posing as God and the creator of all everything.

Please get the facts straight.

Ningen Han (Shimokorihi's head of international relations): The Authority was still God to the people of those worlds!

Akurei Han (Shimokorihi's Top head of the millitary): Pansy! I still have that Fire-Hurler! I'm thinking of taking it out for target practice...ON YOU!!

Shimo Kori: Oops, got to go. Ja nee!

Whatever.

$26.1 Million in the US and $14.4 Million in the UK (Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7140131.stm)) may not make Golden Compass the biggest grossing film of all time, but it's still a heck of a lot of money, and it's still at the number one spot on both sides of the Atlantic.

Hardly sunk without a trace.

The Golden Compass:
week 2 gross: $12,495,139
change from previous week: -60.9%
domestic gross to date: $44,438,251
budget: $180,000,000

Source: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/weekly/chart/

A 61% week-two drop is essentially sinking without a trace, as everyone familiar with the entertainment industry can tell you. A $45M domestic cume on a $180M production budget is a box office catastrophe. This turkey will be lucky to make half its costs back before going to the WalMart discount DVD bin, where someone will cut his hand on the packaging and get an infection . . . .


Moreover, sales of the books have seen a 500% increase (http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2007/dec/07120507.html), propelling it into the USA Today's Top 50 list.

See how long that lasts. Prediction: not beyond the next two weeks.

Surprise, surprise, if Church leaders tell folks not to see a movie or read a book, people rush to see the movie and read the book.

Free advertising all the way!

Surprise, surprise: a Catholic bishop reviewed this mess the week-end it opened. He did it in a theater that was "largely deserted'.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1938204/posts

The review title, btw, couldn't have been more apt ;)

I'm always surprised by how weak some peoples faith must be if they see it threatened by a children's book. And how stupid some people are to give a lot of free publicity to something they think is bad.

*fassturbates*

*FURIOUSLY*

New Mitanni, why do you care so much? It's fiction, much the same as Lewis Carroll's Narnia series was fiction. I'd also imagine the reason it's done so poorly in the US is partly due to parents forbidding their children from seeing such a heinous example of, well, any other world-view apart from Christianity :p Plus the film is, quite frankly, shit. Shit beyond your wildest dreams.

I think you mean 'colossal'.

Though I think you already know that. ;)
Oh man, I totally bow to your intellectual superiority over me after I made a spelling mistake at about 2am.

*fassturbates*

*FURIOUSLY*

New Mitanni, why do you care so much? It's fiction, much the same as Lewis Carroll's Narnia series was fiction. I'd also imagine the reason it's done so poorly in the US is partly due to parents forbidding their children from seeing such a heinous example of, well, any other world-view apart from Christianity :p Plus the film is, quite frankly, shit. Shit beyond your wildest dreams.

Uh, Lewis Carroll?

Uh, Lewis Carroll?
Yeah, my brain isn't working. I meant CS Lewis. Too many Lewises with Cs in their name.:(

Meh... fundies with no appreciation for literature. No wonder nobody reads the bible these days any more - too soppy even for the fairest of hearts.:D

Personally I can't wait for this baby. (http://imdb.com/title/tt0484138/) :D

*fassturbates*

*FURIOUSLY*

New Mitanni, why do you care so much? It's fiction, much the same as C.S. Lewis's Narnia series was fiction. I'd also imagine the reason it's done so poorly in the US is partly due to parents forbidding their children from seeing such a heinous example of, well, any other world-view apart from Christianity :p Plus the film is, quite frankly, shit. Shit beyond your wildest dreams.

Because the perceived or actual failure of anything secular or even outright atheistic and hostile to religion feeds the persecution fantasy and strokes the egos of fundies at the same time.

Speaking of which, in before the fassturbation begins.


Quality.

Personally I can't wait for this baby. (http://imdb.com/title/tt0484138/) :D

Oh, some classic literature buffs might see it just to see how the movie industry once again fucked it up, churches will round up and whip up their followers to watch it, but for the most part people won't be the slighest bit interested unless they believe it's a Painkiller movie.

Because the perceived or actual failure of anything secular or even outright atheistic and hostile to religion feeds the persecution fantasy and strokes the egos of fundies at the same time.
You mean this is coming back to the old idea that once one part of your argument falls down, it all falls down? I thought that only applied to their beliefs?

The Golden Compass:
week 2 gross: $12,495,139
change from previous week: -60.9%
domestic gross to date: $44,438,251
budget: $180,000,000

Source: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/weekly/chart/

A 61% week-two drop is essentially sinking without a trace, as everyone familiar with the entertainment industry can tell you. A $45M domestic cume on a $180M production budget is a box office catastrophe. This turkey will be lucky to make half its costs back before going to the WalMart discount DVD bin, where someone will cut his hand on the packaging and get an infection . . . .


You're not telling the whole story. If you look at it's totals (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=goldencompass.htm), you'll find that it's fairing much better overseas, at $91 million, bringing it's combined total to $137 million in two weeks. Now in the US it's getting tromped, this Friday it got beat out by a lot of strong and not so strong contenders, but in all honesty, December is one of the most brutal times to release a movie as it's the time that the studios pull out all the stops for the final Oscar push. It was a gamble to release a movie like this now instead of during the summer.

You are right about the drop off, however, as it continues to slide even further this week at the same pace against a big slate of contenders. Though I'm a bit disappointed at the success of National Treasure, I don't really want to be 'proud' per se of the movie selection abilities of a group of people who made that movie $17 mil (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/daily/chart/?sortdate=2007-12-21&p=.htm) on opening day...or that beat Sweeney Todd with Alvin and the Chipmunks...but with foreign receipts no one will be giving huge regrets over Golden Compass.

Actually, it makes me wonder, with the huge disparity between foreign receipts what makes the difference? Mojo doesn't give the number of screens to compare with. The British and French seem to be eating it up. Is it different tastes? Or is the Catholic boycott just that effective in the US?

You mean this is coming back to the old idea that once one part of your argument falls down, it all falls down? I thought that only applied to their beliefs?

Sorry to disappoint you, but "fundies" are a distinct minority within Christianity.

And seeing the term applied to myself just makes me laugh at the ignorance of the applicant, considering, among other things, my non-literalist view of scripture, especially the Old Testament, opposition to creationism and ID, acceptance of the scientific evidence adduced to date consistent with the theory of evolution, not to mention my support for allowing married priests and :eek: the ordination of women.

Oh, some classic literature buffs might see it just to see how the movie industry once again fucked it up, churches will round up and whip up their followers to watch it, but for the most part people won't be the slighest bit interested unless they believe it's a Painkiller movie.

You do know this is where Lucifer appears as (arguably )the first Byronic hero right? If the Golden Compass is deicidal, then this is outright Satan-worshipping/praising as far xtianity is concerned.

I watched "Da Vinci Code" and I wondered how such a bad movie with an unbelievable plot bothered more the Catholic Church than those movies denouncing real corruption inside organized religions.

So I'm afraid it might be another crappy movie using a "polemic" plot to draw attention and that its box office might also be related to the quality of the movie rather than due to religious pressures against it.

It is straight foreward - such a film hurts the (Catholic) Church. It is because it handles "believing in the story" - that is the same with the bible. You may believe the story. There ist still not hard and proved fact that Jesus even existed (except the bible, but it is still not scientific way proved). So believe or don't. And this damned film finds thousands of human beeings believing in it and the story. And by the way - within the last milennium the Catholic Church did much of nonsense, cruelty and murder. Why should they have stopped it - certainly they did in public. Inquisition looks different today.

Because the perceived or actual failure of anything secular or even outright atheistic and hostile to religion feeds the persecution fantasy and strokes the egos of fundies at the same time.

Christerbation.

i haven't seen the movie yet, does anyone think i should? is it any good?
Oh as for religous people being literate, usually they are.
For example in the UK you have to have a diploma in religious/counseling studies before you can become a priest. So really the only downfall with them is that they believe in something that is difficult to prove.
I doubt it's religion itself that's the bad thing, it's the people who use it as an exuse to do bad things that make some people assume, that they are tied together.

Christerbation.

http://sinfest.net/comikaze/comics/2007-12-01.gif

All this talk about the Golden Compass makes me envy the people who had seen it.

Meh... fundies with no appreciation for literature. No wonder nobody reads the bible these days any more - too soppy even for the fairest of hearts.:D

Personally I can't wait for this baby. (http://imdb.com/title/tt0484138/) :D

Sweet. I just studied that for my English degree and even though Milton didn't mean it to happen he made Satan the fallen hero of that epic poem.

i haven't seen the movie yet, does anyone think i should? is it any good?

Not really, no. It is basicly a string of pretty pictures that not only does no justice to the book - but is not that great as a movie an sich either.
Not a bad watch, just not great.

During this Christmas season, commemorating the birth of Jesus Christ the Savior of all Mankind, I cannot tell you how pleased I am to see that The Golden Compass has lost its bearings, crashed into the rocks, and sunk with hardly a trace.

Bookspoiler:
The books were about people that were so concerned with religious dogma that they wished to suppress the truth, ignore original scripture and worship an Angel pretending to be God for it.


So Christians should rejoice at this movie. Unless they worship Satan of course.
Do you worship Satan ?

http://sinfest.net/comikaze/comics/2007-12-01.gif

All this talk about the Golden Compass makes me envy the people who had seen it.

Sinfest FTW!

It's funny, because what the kids kill isn't god at all. But evidently that's of no concern to the religious leaders in America. Because killing an evil tyrant that has been masquerading as god is just as offensive to them as killing God(tm), apparently.

It's funny, because what the kids kill isn't god at all. But evidently that's of no concern to the religious leaders in America. Because killing an evil tyrant that has been masquerading as god is just as offensive to them as killing God(tm), apparently.

Jep. Killing what basicly is Satan is bad according to some Christians, and standing up for Gods wonders is not.

Makes you wonder about those people.

Jep. Killing what basicly is Satan is bad according to some Christians, and standing up for Gods wonders is not.

Makes you wonder about those people.

Well it's not like they ever actually read the book. Just a summary of the summary their secretary's assistant wrote.

It's funny, because what the kids kill isn't god at all. But evidently that's of no concern to the religious leaders in America. Because killing an evil tyrant that has been masquerading as god is just as offensive to them as killing God(tm), apparently.

Hell, they don't even manage to kill the angel masquerading as god. He dies as an indirect result of their cutting open his prison, but they don't kill him

LOL @ ignorant Xtians.

Sorry to disappoint you, but "fundies" are a distinct minority within Christianity.

And seeing the term applied to myself just makes me laugh at the ignorance of the applicant, considering, among other things, my non-literalist view of scripture, especially the Old Testament, opposition to creationism and ID, acceptance of the scientific evidence adduced to date consistent with the theory of evolution, not to mention my support for allowing married priests and :eek: the ordination of women.
...

I'm sorry, I missed your point there. I was neither suggesting you were fundamentalist nor reflecting anything else against you. I was just wondering, aloud, why it should matter so much that the film is "failing", by your standards. Personally, I don't see why it should even be a bad thing that this film has been released around Christmas. It holds no opinion towards Christ and it shouldn't shake your faith. Hell, I'd even go as far as to say it should somewhat bolster it, or at the very least give it a well-needed test. I'm even concerned as to why religious holidays should have any bearing on film release, though that's a personal gripe. I was also wondering, again aloud, why it should matter whether children see it or not. Surely they have the right to be exposed to equal amounts of ficitonal propaganda and not just one particular strain of it?

Hell, they don't even manage to kill the angel masquerading as god. He dies as an indirect result of their cutting open his prison, but they don't kill him

Indeed, no court would convict them.

LOL @ ignorant Xtians.

I'm am shocked by the conciseness of your post.

I stand in awe:D

back on Topic: so they kill a demiurge of sorts or what?

Indeed, no court would convict them.

Are you suggesting the author/director foresaw this and it is all a carefully conceived conspiracy to advertise Satanism while evading the law?:eek:

I'm am shocked by the conciseness of your post.

I stand in awe:D

back on Topic: so they kill a demiurge of sorts or what?

In the midst of an epic battle between the forces of the pretender god, the Authority, and the rebels the children stumble across a sort of crystal container of some kind, which contains an extremely old and decrepid looking angel. They release this angel, and it dies outside it's crystal container. The angel was the Authority.

A 61% week-two drop is essentially sinking without a trace, as everyone familiar with the entertainment industry can tell you.
New Mitanni: Entertainment Guru :D

What are you trying to prove? I've already acknowledged that the film hasn't done as well as its makers hoped/expected; probably because it failed to live up to fans' visions of the story.

More importantly (though attacking your argument of "the Golden Compass film takes $44M therefore atheists lose!!!" is hardly important), even though the film has 'only' taken $44M in box office sales, it's still very much #1 at the box office.

Financially not great but hardly off the radar.

This turkey will be lucky to make half its costs back before going to the WalMart discount DVD bin, where someone will cut his hand on the packaging and get an infection . . . .
Sly dig, or just plain weirdness on your part?

See how long that lasts. Prediction: not beyond the next two weeks.
They've been selling well for over 12 years, don't see why they'll stop now.

But again, does this even matter? Contrary to what you seem to think, the success or failure of a trilogy of children's books and their film adaptation(s) doesn't determine whether atheism is justified.

Surprise, surprise: a Catholic bishop reviewed this mess the week-end it opened. He did it in a theater that was "largely deserted'.
Oh noes!

My non-faith is shattered.

Once again, I know Golden Compass isn't a fantastic film (hell, I'm not even a massive fan of the books), or that it isn't doing as well as some might have hoped, but the Dark Materials franchise is doing very well for itself and I'm sure will be around for some time.

On a side not, it amuses me somewhat that I've yet to see any British media portray the books/film as a 'controversial' or 'atheistic' story.

We're more concerned that Lovejoy/Swearengen (http://laroepadron.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/mcshane1.jpg) is now a polar bear.

Are you suggesting the author/director foresaw this and it is all a carefully conceived conspiracy to advertise Satanism while evading the law?:eek:

That and laws against murder don't really cover humans unintentionally killing non-human sentient beings.

I find that people are only really insulted when they know what is said is true and cannot accept it.

Eh, I'm not so sure. However, I agree that people generally only lash back with much vigor when they know there is at least an iota of truth in what is being said. Otherwise, they realize the ridiculousness of it and keep a level head.

Hell, they don't even manage to kill the angel masquerading as god. He dies as an indirect result of their cutting open his prison, but they don't kill him

Manslaughter, at most. :)

Still, I think it's reasonable for religious groups to find this...disagreeable. It's not as if after they kill the pretender God, the children find the real God and everyone becomes a Christian. They kill the pretender and...that's it, they then make a Republic of Heaven, or something.

What are you trying to prove? I've already acknowledged that the film hasn't done as well as its makers hoped/expected; probably because it failed to live up to fans' visions of the story.
Indeed. Many feel it's not critical enough...

One might draw the conclusion that this dispute is less one of religious animosity, and more so copyright infringement.

*Cackles like Ryuji Yamazaki*

I have neither read the books nor seen the movie but perhaps "Killing God: is taken out of context? Are you sure it's God they kill? to my understanding it's more of a allegory towards organized Churches. I have been reading up some various stories about it but I can't say I'm fully informed

Jep. Killing what basicly is Satan is bad according to some Christians, and standing up for Gods wonders is not.

Makes you wonder about those people.

What IS there to wonder?

Fundies believe, nay, CRAVE, the notion of a god that hurts, a god that HATES, above all, a god that controls, while at the same time being under THEIR control. They root for the antagonist. Their notion of a god hates all that's not under his control. Their notion of a god despises the very notion of freedom, as well as the notion of daring not to say his name. And so do they! They aren't showing annoyance about the fact that the girl kills A god; the antagonist in the book is JUST LIKE their god! And quite frankly I would not be surprised if they were to complain that such a monster was killed in a book even if that monster were not "their god". Because that monster, that being that hates, that punishes, that perversely sees the entirety of creation as its plaything, is what they believe, and WISH, God to be like. A god like them.

And that is why the notion of magic threatens them so; Magic in literature comes from the people, not from one entity above granting people's wishes. That is why the witch-hunts happened, that is why the very notion of mysticism and occultism is repulsive and threatening to them: A mage takes his destiny into his own hands, and the worshipers of a god that hates, punishes, and, above all, CONTROLS, will not have that. If there were vulgar magic in the world, these people would be the first ones to try and eliminate it!

What IS there to wonder?

Fundies believe, nay, CRAVE, the notion of a god that hurts, a god that HATES, above all, a god that controls, while at the same time being under THEIR control. They root for the antagonist. Their notion of a god hates all that's not under his control. Their notion of a god despise the very notion of freedom, as well as the notion of daring not to say his name. And so do they! They aren't showing annoyance about the fact that the girl kills A god; the antagonist in the book is JUST LIKE their god! And quite frankly I would not be surprised if they were to complain that such a monster was killed in a book even if that monster were not "their god". Because that monster, that being that hates, that punishes, that perversely sees the entirety of creation as its plaything, is what they believe, and WISH, God to be like. A god like them.

And that is why the notion of magic threatens them so; Magic in literature comes from the people, not from one entity above granting people's wishes. That is why the witch-hunts happened, that is why the very notion of mysticism and occultism is repulsive and threatening to them: A mage takes his destiny into his own hands, and the worshipers of a god that hates, punishes, and, above all, CONTROLS, will not have that. If there were vulgar magic in the world, these people would be the first ones to try and eliminate it!

Overall, a pretty interesting and thorough analysis. I agree with pretty much everything you wrote.

Indeed, the books are a critique of Authoritarianism, and glorifies people who refuse to submit to authority for the sake of authority. The children and their allies (Iorek, Lee Scoresby, Seraphina, Azriel, etc.) actually go ahead and ask "why?". They're told what to do or what to think, but that's not enough for them. They want to know why. They need justification. They treathen the status quo by demanding those answers, and when the People In Charge deny them those answers and instead try to shut them up, keeping them ignorant little lambs to be directed by their shepherd, they roll up their sleeves and go looking for those answers themselves.

Basically, the whole book is a spiritual analogy. It encourages us to go looking for our own answers instead of mindlessly accepting the answers given by the People In Charge. And it tells us that the answers we find might very well not what had been told to us in the beginning.

So yes, hardly surprising how those who would use religion as a tool of control would consider this work to be a danger to their interests.

Incidentely, I thought that the golden compass wasn't a patch on the northern lights (that's the original book title, for any Americans, seeing as you seem to have the wrong title, Pullman's a british author), they mess up the order a fair bit, change the bear king's name (unneccessary to a point), and end the film too early (the climactic ending can't suit the beginning of the second film).
:headbang:
Still, it's a very good film if you've never read the book.

Christerbation.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13317621&postcount=605
*nods*

I would like to say, as a... Jesus-loving Pagan, that I didn't feel that anything going on was really anti-christian.
Mostly Anti-Catholic Church, and honestly, who likes those guys?

Mostly Anti-Catholic Church, and honestly, who likes those guys?

Certainly not little boys. :(

I would like to say, as a... Jesus-loving Pagan, that I didn't feel that anything going on was really anti-christian.
Mostly Anti-Catholic Church, and honestly, who likes those guys?

Liches.

Liches.
To be fair, approximately one-sixth of the world's population also quite likes them, according to official numbers (http://www.zenit.org/article-18894?l=english).

To be fair, approximately one-sixth of the world's population also quite likes them, according to official numbers (http://www.zenit.org/article-18894?l=english).

Do all Catholics like the current organization?

Christian groups how have taken some much needed rest from haranguing loving gay families who want the state to acknowledge their children and their never ending crusade against science, have once again set their targets on children's fantasy.

The argument is a was trodden one, witchcraft, sorcery, etcetera, but with some lovely twists. This time, it seems, the horrible humanist author of The Golden Compass went as far to have the children kill God in the final of the trilogy.

And here I was thinking that Christians cornered the markets on killing the Almighty in fantasy books. One might draw the conclusion that this dispute is less one of religious animosity, and more so copyright infringement.Well, in the words of the author:
Oh, it causes me to shake my head with sorrow that such nitwits could be loose in the world.

Do all Catholics like the current organization?
They may not fully support them in everything they do, but they like them enough to stay part of the Church.

But enough of me putting words into folks' mouths. There's a number of Catholics on here who could tell you their thinking.

They may not fully support them in everything they do, but they like them enough to stay part of the Church.

But enough of me putting words into folks' mouths. There's a number of Catholics on here who could tell you their thinking.

1- I do know of at least a few catholics that dislike Ratzlinger (being Brazilian I have some fair access to Catholics).

2- Yet there are also evangelicals complaining about the movie...

I would like to say, as a... Jesus-loving Pagan, that I didn't feel that anything going on was really anti-christian.
Mostly Anti-Catholic Church, and honestly, who likes those guys?I read a "mostly anti-organized religion and religious dogma" out of it so far, but I'm only halfway through the Subtle Knife at the moment.

I do know of at least a few catholics that dislike Ratzlinger (being Brazilian I have some fair access to Catholics).
Of course they do, just as many Anglicans are disappointed on their church's stance on gay priests, many Muslims are ashamed of hardline clerics, etc.

The sheer diversity of thought and action in religious denominations always makes me wonder why people bind themselves together under such organisations in the first place.

Yet there are also evangelicals complaining about the movie...
And?

Folks will always complain when they see their feel their being attacked.

And?

Folks will always complain when they see their feel their being attacked.

Well, my point here would be that the (or, to be fair: SOME segments of the) Catholic church isn't the only one that feels offended by this book (as it did throughout the times; maybe they should burn this book like they did way back when they had power to?); Other fundies are also protesting it. As I said earlier, I do not believe it's because of the fact that the antagonist is a "god", it's because of the fact that the antagonist is what the people that complain about the book would LIKE God to be like.

Well, my point here would be that the (or, to be fair: SOME segments of the) Catholic church isn't the only one that feels offended by this book (as it did throughout the times; maybe they should burn this book like they did way back when they had power to?); Other fundies are also protesting it. As I said earlier, I do not believe it's because of the fact that the antagonist is a "god", it's because of the fact that the antagonist is what the people that complain about the book would LIKE God to be like.
Oh, I see.

I suppose so. As I've said previously in this thread, the 'controversy' seems only to be affecting the Americas, and more the US than anywhere else.

It's just seen as a film here in the UK.

Oh, I see.

I suppose so. As I've said previously in this thread, the 'controversy' seems only to be affecting the Americas, and more the US than anywhere else.

It's just seen as a film here in the UK.I watched the movie and there is nothing really in it about god... and believe me, I would have noticed.

I watched the movie and there is nothing really in it about god...

It was washed down to prevent this exact kind of reactions that the nutcases insist on displaying.

Personally, disliked the books a fair bit, but for entirely different reasons - i.e., that don't really like the books, the style they are written in, or the characters.

I find that people are only really insulted when they know what is said is true and cannot accept it.


Well you're damn wrong. If I said the following to your grandma: "You fucking bitch ass whore" I think that she might be insulted. Does that make your grandma a bitch ass whore?

Well you're damn wrong. If I said the following to your grandma: "You fucking bitch ass whore" I think that she might be insulted. Does that make your grandma a bitch ass whore?

Too bad in this case the god that's the antagonist is the OPPOSITE of what their god should be like, yet here we see them reacting as if that's the exact god. So, yes, you may have a point in most cases, but this one is a tad different.

Uh, Lewis Carroll?

Yeah, I was all "huh" too.
C.S. Lewis = Narnia's creator
Lewis Carroll = Alice's (as in Alice in Wonderland) creator.

Incidentely, I thought that the golden compass wasn't a patch on the northern lights (that's the original book title, for any Americans, seeing as you seem to have the wrong title, Pullman's a british author), they mess up the order a fair bit, change the bear king's name (unneccessary to a point), and end the film too early (the climactic ending can't suit the beginning of the second film).
:headbang:
Still, it's a very good film if you've never read the book.

Title

For some time during the pre-publication process, the series of novels was known as The Golden Compasses. The word Compasses referred to a pair of compasses—the circle-drawing instrument—rather than a navigational compass. Pullman then settled on Northern Lights as the title for the first book, and continued to refer to the trilogy as The Golden Compasses.[26]

In the US, in their discussions over the publication of the first book, the publishers Alfred A. Knopf had been calling it The Golden Compass (omitting the plural), which they mistakenly believed referred to Lyra's alethiometer, because the device superficially resembles a navigational compass. Meanwhile, in the UK, Pullman had replaced The Golden Compasses with His Dark Materials (a title that Pullman had taken from a line in Paradise Lost) as the title of the trilogy. But according to Pullman, the publishers had become so attached to The Golden Compass that they insisted on publishing the US edition of the first book under that title, rather than Northern Lights, the title used in the UK.[26]

As the book was known as The Golden Compass in the US and Canada, with similar book titles in other languages such as in Germany where it is titled Der Goldene Kompass, New Line Cinema chose to use that title for the film adaptation. However, Philip Pullman has since stated that, had marketing material for the film not already been produced, he would have preferred the original title of Northern Lights to be used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Compass_(film)

Do all Catholics like the current organization?

I'm nominally a Catholic (baptised and confirmed before I had a chance to really understand what I was getting into) and I do everything in power on a daily basis to denounce their hypocrisy, evil acts, and overall negative influence over the world.

So no, counting all Catholics won't give you an accurate estimate of the people who actually like or agree with the Vatican.

Meh... fundies with no appreciation for literature. No wonder nobody reads the bible these days any more - too soppy even for the fairest of hearts.:D

Personally I can't wait for this baby. (http://imdb.com/title/tt0484138/) :D

It'll suck, because Hollywood will fuck it up and make it about nekkid boobs, random hot sex and will somehow force an explosion or 12 in there and at the very end the divorced couple will have a tearful reunion after a near death experience.

*nods*

Not true to the story? Doesn't have to be! It's American cinema, folks!

I'm nominally a Catholic (baptised and confirmed before I had a chance to really understand what I was getting into) and I do everything in power on a daily basis to denounce their hypocrisy, evil acts, and overall negative influence over the world.

So no, counting all Catholics won't give you an accurate estimate of the people who actually like or agree with the Vatican.

That was my point.

Oh, and another thing. Why are they up in arms over this and not the ridiculous numbers of Japanese rpgs that came out in (and since) the 90s wherein the church is an/the antagonist and you kill god? Is Final Fantasy, perhaps the most successful Console RPG series of all time, just not worthy of notice?
Is it just because 50+ hours of gaming is so much more effort than watching a movie?

Because that would also explain why they never bothered to read the books.

Seriously, as our good friend Christopher Hitchens says, the religiosity of America is wildly overplayed, their simply isn't enough room in the churches for the amount of people who tell the pollsters they are 'Christians', the simply fact is that people like to tell pollsters they are Christian but few are in the meaningful way, and how really could be given the joke that bronze-age Judean myth really is. This film has been accused of mocking Christianity, but in reality Christianity makes a mockery of itself. All religion is a joke and what's even funnier is that people still take such age-old garbage seriously, religion deserves to be treated with ridicule.

Seriously, as our good friend Christopher Hitchens says, the religiosity of America is wildly overplayed, their simply isn't enough room in the churches for the amount of people who tell the pollsters they are 'Christians', the simply fact is that people like to tell pollsters they are Christian but few are in the meaningful way, and how really could be given the joke that bronze-age Judean myth really is. This film has been accused of mocking Christianity, but in reality Christianity makes a mockery of itself. All religion is a joke and what's even funnier is that people still take such age-old garbage seriously, religion deserves to be treated with ridicule.there's a meaningful way to be a christian?? :D

there's a meaningful way to be a christian?? :D

I think it's "not being a dick," as Jesus essentially taught.

I think it's "not being a dick," as Jesus essentially taught.Jesus didn't teach that...

Jesus didn't teach that...

Well, I mean, thats the essence of the messages attributed to Jesus. Love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek, that kind of stuff.

Well, I mean, thats the essence of the messages attributed to Jesus. Love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek, that kind of stuff.you need jesus for that?

Small Gods is definitely one of the best Discworld books.

Oo...I have that one on my shelf. Perhaps I should actually read it now.

Oo...I have that one on my shelf. Perhaps I should actually read it now.

Well what are you waiting for?! OFF YOU GO!

*pushes and shoves*

Oo...I have that one on my shelf. Perhaps I should actually read it now.

Yes. You should. Absolutely. Do that now.

It's a fantastic book :)