NationStates Jolt Archive

With Christmas approaching, I've been thinking about its Christian meaning. For various historical reasons Christmas is a much bigger deal than Easter is, despite Jesus' death being more important than his birth in Christianity (as far as I can tell anyway, I am not a Christian myself). And it got me wandering, what do Christians actually believe is the most important moment in Jesus' life? Is it only about his death? Could he have just done nothing all his life, gotten run over by a cart in his 60s, and still have saved everyone from their sins? This question also applies to any Muslims here; seeing as Islam believes he is a Prophet it'd be interesting to hear their perspective.

Just go to the thread tools and select the option to add a poll. That should work.

christmas brings the hope that god's promise will be fulfilled

jesus' ministry outlined the new covenant

jesus' death pays the price

his resurrection shows that the sacrifice was accepted, the promise was kept, the theology is real that we do indeed have a new covenant with god.

so easter is the most important christian holiday.

we dont make as big a corporate deal over it because there is only a limited amount of spending associated with it.

That's tough, because his whole life is important.

I tend to find this sort of question roughly on par with "so what was the most important event in Gandalf's life?

I tend to find this sort of question roughly on par with "so what was the most important event in Gandalf's life?

duh.

the most important event in gandalf's life was the destruction of the ring.

duh.

the most important event in gandalf's life was the destruction of the ring.

Frodo destroyed the ring. Gandalf just sent him on his way.

Actually, Smeagol destroyed the ring. So the most important event in Gandalf's life was convincing Frodo to have pity for Smeagol.

Frodo destroyed the ring. Gandalf just sent him on his way.

Actually, Smeagol destroyed the ring. So the most important event in Gandalf's life was convincing Frodo to have pity for Smeagol.

Or to convince Bilbo to go on an adventure.

To the OP: his teachings. It is even uncertain if Jesus ever existed; but that does not matter if the words are all that matters.

Frodo destroyed the ring. Gandalf just sent him on his way.

Actually, Smeagol destroyed the ring. So the most important event in Gandalf's life was convincing Frodo to have pity for Smeagol.

noooooo

the most important thing that gandalf DID might be to have convinced frodo to have pity for smeagol--at least it arguably might be-- but the most important EVENT was the destruction of the ring.

it was the most important event of everyone in the book except for some of the older elves who had lived though equally momentous times.

Hmmmm, where would dying as Gandalf the Grey and coming back as Gandalf the White fit in with important actions? I agree with the momentus event being the destruction fot he Ring though... only makes sense.

Offhand I'd say it was the time He spent a month hiking the Alps, and subsequently came back with a radically different philosophy of life and greater patience and forgiveness for his fellow-man.

That or His death and resurrection, without which twenty generations of clergy would be out of a job, and Emperor Palpatine can say goodbye to his funny hat. If He had lived to a ripe old age, become a respected teacher whose sons and apostles headed synagogues and churches across the ancient world, and stayed dead the way normal people do He would never have attained the same popularity.

Hmmmm, where would dying as Gandalf the Grey and coming back as Gandalf the White fit in with important actions? I agree with the momentus event being the destruction fot he Ring though... only makes sense.

i dont know. the destruction of the balrog, which is what killed gandalf, doesnt seem to have much import in the story at all except to get gandalf out of the picture long enough to force the less powerful characters to step up.

coming back as gandalf the white and unseating saruman is cool but i dont see that it is the most important action. not dying might have made frodo's journey to mt doom easier. or not, since no one could resist the lure of the ring but a hobbit.

That's tough, because his whole life is important.

actually he only preached for 1-3 years (although some think even less). I don't think that what he did before that could be labeled 'important'.

actually he only preached for 1-3 years (although some think even less). I don't think that what he did before that could be labeled 'important'.

Well.. assuming he truly existed we do not know what he did for a large part of his life. Maybe he performed great miracles. Maybe he committed great crimes. Maybe he did everything the Da Vinci code claimed ;)

i dont know. the destruction of the balrog, which is what killed gandalf, doesnt seem to have much import in the story at all except to get gandalf out of the picture long enough to force the less powerful characters to step up.

coming back as gandalf the white and unseating saruman is cool but i dont see that it is the most important action. not dying might have made frodo's journey to mt doom easier. or not, since no one could resist the lure of the ring but a hobbit.

Agreed, turning into the 'White' doesn't need to change the Ring story very much, but from Gandalf's point of view (if there were such a thing) his personal story would be outside of the Ring story I think?


(*this is about as geeky nerdy as I get, If we get ito the Silmarillion I'm doomed, never read it *hangs head in shame*)

For the majority of the world, his birthday.

Agreed, turning into the 'White' doesn't need to change the Ring story very much, but from Gandalf's point of view (if there were such a thing) his personal story would be outside of the Ring story I think?

Hmm... what would be more changing... him getting handed the elven ring which enabled him to stand a chance against the Balrog or him becoming white ?
Tricky one :s

Agreed, turning into the 'White' doesn't need to change the Ring story very much, but from Gandalf's point of view (if there were such a thing) his personal story would be outside of the Ring story I think?


(*this is about as geeky nerdy as I get, If we get ito the Silmarillion I'm doomed, never read it *hangs head in shame*)

Hmm... what would be more changing... him getting handed the elven ring which enabled him to stand a chance against the Balrog or him becoming white ?
Tricky one :s

gandalf's purpose in middle earth is to fight evil. from the moment he sets foot in middle earth (and is handed an elven ring) he is working toward the defeat of sauron.

to suggest any one event as his most important moment is impossible. if he hadnt befriended the hobbits, if he hadnt sent bilbo out with the dwarves, if he hadnt had frodo take the ring out of the shire, if he hadnt urged elrond to include the other hobbits on the quest... the list might be endless.

and who knows how many outside the book things he would have done in his thousand or so years in middle earth? he may have saved the northern line of succession a dozen times, ensuring that aragorn is born and survives to become king. he had to be doing SOMETHING all that time.

Well despite Neo Art's trollish threadjack I think I've got an opinion to offer here.

Jesus's whole life was a series of hugely important events, all of which were critical to His purpose for being here. If I had to rank them in order of significance I suppose I'd put His crucifixion at the top, because I think that was the primary objective, so to speak.

But if you take out any of the events before or after it, it would make the meaning of the event disappear, or even make the event itself impossible. None of those list items are expendable.

In fact, there's a whole lot more that could be added to it!

None of it, he never existed

...he had to be doing SOMETHING all that time.

You think he was doing something more than just sitting around drinking beer and blowing smoke rings while he waited those hundreds of years? Damn, there goes my internal fantasy Valhalla version of Heaven... :)

With Christmas approaching, I've been thinking about its Christian meaning. For various historical reasons Christmas is a much bigger deal than Easter is, despite Jesus' death being more important than his birth in Christianity (as far as I can tell anyway, I am not a Christian myself). And it got me wandering, what do Christians actually believe is the most important moment in Jesus' life? Is it only about his death? Could he have just done nothing all his life, gotten run over by a cart in his 60s, and still have saved everyone from their sins? This question also applies to any Muslims here; seeing as Islam believes he is a Prophet it'd be interesting to hear their perspective.
I find your poll failing on multiple counts. For one thing, presuming Jesus actually existed, his life would not have begun until he was born. For two things, your poll assumes that various ridiculous things that are attributed to him actually happened.

Third of things, where's the option for "That weird sect of Judaism made him up?"

Regardless of whether Jesus existed or was who people claim he was, the most important aspect is clearly that a bunch of people spent 2000 years running around telling people he was the son of god.

Death and Resurrection. As Paul said, if there was no resurrection, then our faith is futile.

I find your poll failing on multiple counts. For one thing, presuming Jesus actually existed, his life would not have begun until he was born. For two things, your poll assumes that various ridiculous things that are attributed to him actually happened.

Third of things, where's the option for "That weird sect of Judaism made him up?"

I do believe he existed, so you've got me there on the bias. I don't believe he was ressurected, and I'm 50/50 on whether or not he was ever actually executed. The main point of this poll was to gauge Christian and Muslim attitudes, not those of atheists or other non-Jesus-followers such as myself.

Death and Resurrection. As Paul said, if there was no resurrection, then our faith is futile.

that's interesting, why is that? If he dies to save you from your sins, what does him coming back to life mean?

Death and Resurrection. As Paul said, if there was no resurrection, then our faith is futile.

So.. Jesus teachings only have worth because he was resurrected, not because they are, you know, good ?

Weird faith you have there.

that's interesting, why is that? If he dies to save you from your sins, what does him coming back to life mean?

Dying for sins was one aspect of the ultimate goal. Coming back to life ensured that if one accepts Christ as saviour, then they will have victory over the second death*, just as Christ had victory over death.


*Second Death= Hell or in biblical terms, eternal separation from God.

Well I'd say his death or his birth, because both of these events changed his life completely: from zero to being a baby and from a young adult to nothing (at least on earth).

So.. Jesus teachings only have worth because he was resurrected, not because they are, you know, good ?

Weird faith you have there.

Well, as half of what he taught was that He is the son of God, then I believe that the resurrection is necessary to validate His teachings. Sure, he has good teachings about helping others, and those teaching are great, but are they really any different from what other religious leaders has said? The uniqueness that Christ brings is that He claims to be fully human, and fully divine, and then he backs it up through his death, and then resurrection. So, as far as that is concerned, yes, most of His teachings only have worth because He was resurrected.


As a side note, I am appalled by the lack of intelligence of NSG. People that I once assumed to be fairly smart, sound completely ridiculous, denying that Jesus ever existed. While it cannot be proven 100% that He was who he said he was, there is no doubting that He existed. Only a very small group of wannabe scholars actually believe that he didn't exist, and they are laughed upon by the rest of the world.

... it cannot be proven 100% that He was who he said he was...
Only like 95-99%, right?

<SNIP>
As a side note, I am appalled by the lack of intelligence of NSG. People that I once assumed to be fairly smart, sound completely ridiculous, denying that Jesus ever existed. While it cannot be proven 100% that He was who he said he was, there is no doubting that He existed. Only a very small group of wannabe scholars actually believe that he didn't exist, and they are laughed upon by the rest of the world.

I doubt he ever existed, no-one has ever shown me proof of his existence.

I doubt he ever existed, no-one has ever shown me proof of his existence.


Because a group of Jews wanted to go against and empire and their entire society at the time, to make up a myth about someone and get killed for that story makes so much sense how? If you want proof of Christ, you must look at His disciples. If they made him up, just to make him up, then why would they allow themselves to die for it? Why would they go around the known world, facing ridicule and persecution, to tell a silly story? Why would they go against the teachings they grew up with, and against their families and friends who embraced those previous teachings? Why would they do any of that? Furthermore, why would many of their fellow jews decide to follow after this imaginary story? There was no political gain for them by making it up or following it. They did what they had to do, because they believed Christ was God in flesh, who came to set the sinner free. But in order for them to believe that, wouldn't it mean that Jesus had to actually exist first?

But then again, many people don't use logic, so lets deal with some cold hard facts.

From Jewish sources around the time, both the Talmud(which speaks very negatively about Jesus) and authors like Flavius Josephus wrote about the existence of Christ.

From Roman sources you have Tacticus, Pliny the Younger, and Suetonius, who all describe in some aspect, of the influence that Christ had in the world at the time.

Now, if Jesus was just made up, why would sources from the time, that aren't even Christian, attest to Him being real, or have some reference to how his teachings and followers had changed so many things?

Finally, if you want to look at some Christian sources, then you have a load of the Church fathers, who lived within 100 years or so of Christ, and his followers, who all attest to the same things as the Gospels, and epistles, as well as reference to the Christian community and their beliefs.


It takes a blind fool to ignore even this small amount of evidence that Christ existed.

noooooo

the most important thing that gandalf DID might be to have convinced frodo to have pity for smeagol--at least it arguably might be-- but the most important EVENT was the destruction of the ring.

it was the most important event of everyone in the book except for some of the older elves who had lived though equally momentous times.

I'm not as up on my LotR mythology as some, but wasn't Gandalf older than just about everyone else? I seem to remember from the Silmarillion that he was around from the creation more or less.

I'm not as up on my LotR mythology as some, but wasn't Gandalf older than just about everyone else? I seem to remember from the Silmarillion that he was around from the creation more or less.

yeah, thats my understanding too.

gandalf came from tolkien heaven where he was living under another name. he was maiar--whatever that is--some kind of tolkien angel i guess.

he was created some time in the distant past and lived in tolkien heaven until the head guy tapped him, saruman, radaghast and 2 other guys for the job of fighting evil in middle earth. saruman was the top guy but he came to a bad end and gandalf had to take over his job.

so yeah, maybe "the creation of middle earth" or "the chaining of melkor" was the most important event in gandalf's life if you count the time before he came to middle earth

that's interesting, why is that? If he dies to save you from your sins, what does him coming back to life mean?

jesus conquered death. if HE doesnt get to rise again to show us that he was the real deal, that the way to heaven is open, that we no longer need fear death, whats to believe in?

anyone can make the claim, jesus provided the proof.

(*this is about as geeky nerdy as I get, If we get ito the Silmarillion I'm doomed, never read it *hangs head in shame*)


Dont feel bad, noone else has read it either. At best, the bravest have gotten about 30 pages into it and have run from the room pulling out bits of hair from thier head. Then they lie about finishing it in order to sucker in the next victim.

Frodo destroyed the ring. Gandalf just sent him on his way.

Actually, Smeagol destroyed the ring. So the most important event in Gandalf's life was convincing Frodo to have pity for Smeagol.

Actually fate destroyed the ring.
And the most important event in Gandalf's life was being sent back to Middle-earth by Eru himself after his "death" upon Mount Celebdil (Silvertine). What happened to Frodo or Smeagol was not important in the life of an Ainu.

jesus conquered death.If he is god, then he didn't.

And the most important event in Gandalf's life was being sent back to Middle-earth by Eru himself after his "death" upon Mount Celebdil (Silvertine).

Deciding to have his grey robe tailored from asbestos may have also been pretty important.

jesus was fully divine and fully human at the same time.

Much like a cotton polyester blend?

If he is god, then he didn't.

jesus was fully divine and fully human at the same time.

Actually fate destroyed the ring.
And the most important event in Gandalf's life was being sent back to Middle-earth by Eru himself after his "death" upon Mount Celebdil (Silvertine). What happened to Frodo or Smeagol was not important in the life of an Ainu.

i dont see why that is the most important event.

he died while killing the balrog but his mission wasnt over so he was sent back into the game.

what makes that more important than the fulfillment of his mission when the ring went into the fires of mount doom?

And the most important event in Gandalf's life was being sent back to Middle-earth by Eru himself after his "death" upon Mount Celebdil (Silvertine).

The most important event in Gandolfs life was 9 months before he was born, when his parents decided to have sex. Id bet that scene would have doubled DVD sales ;)

Much like a cotton polyester blend?

nooooo

more like a 100% cotton undershirt covered by a 100% polyester dress shirt.

it has some special mystery name that is not coming to me right now.

The most important event in Gandolfs life was 9 months before he was born, when his parents decided to have sex. /win

i dont think gandalf had parents

Because he has said my life is the new testament between God and Human Being.

And stupid Paulus (I am a Catholic too, but I still insist Paulus was stupid) who have lived 200 years after Jesus has said "His life doesn't interest me. His resurrection interests me!"

"How can you be interested in someones resurrection unless you do not care about his message???" That is Pragmatism nothing else!

:upyours:

We need to add to the poll the three years he was on the school track team and made the finals his senior year.

Because he has said my life is the new testament between God and Human Being.

And stupid Paulus (I am a Catholic too, but I still insist Paulus was stupid) who have lived 200 years after Jesus has said "His life doesn't interest me. His resurrection interests me!"

"How can you be interested in someones resurrection unless you do not care about his message???" That is Pragmatism nothing else!

:upyours:

yes but if you found someone elses message more interesting, would you change to that religion? suppose you read up on buddhism and decide that the 8fold path is a great way to live your life, would you become buddhist? (just pretend, i dont want a discussion of why christianity is better than buddhism)

i submit that you would not. that you would stick with christianity because you believe that jesus is the son of god and the one true path to heaven. nothing in his philosophy of life or the details of his life can be more important than that. his death and resurrection is the one unescapable fact that overrides any allure that buddhism (or whatever) might carry.

We need to add to the poll the three years he was on the school track team and made the finals his senior year.

That's funny.
All of his life was important, because there is a whole slew full of you people arguing about it right now.
I hope in 2000 years there is a forum discussing my existence! Because I'm pretty important, no really, I am!

Hmm, I think it was the 33 year, 9 month period from his conception to his death.

Agreed, turning into the 'White' doesn't need to change the Ring story very much, but from Gandalf's point of view (if there were such a thing) his personal story would be outside of the Ring story I think?


(*this is about as geeky nerdy as I get, If we get ito the Silmarillion I'm doomed, never read it *hangs head in shame*)


Dont feel bad, its a terrible read.

Its literally like "The Bible of the Elves".

It goes into the Gods of Middle Earth, and the creation of the races, so forth and so on.

Turns out Gandalf was a Demi-God.
He carried one of the Three rings of Power, so his own story would very much be intertwined with the One ring, and Sauron.

As for Jesus, He would probably say "The day I married", or "The day my first child was born."

Thats right, I said it.

"more like a 100% cotton undershirt covered by a 100% polyester dress shirt.

it has some special mystery name that is not coming to me right now."

What you are stating is called "the Nestorian heresy". Good Christians believed for centuries that they should burn people like you alive for uttering such clumsy phrasings.

'his' past three 'second commings'. (mohammid, the bab, and baha'u'llah)

i'd also be damd curious about the first 30 years of his live, about which we know absolutely nothing.

not that they'd be neccessarily pertinent to what he tried to say in those last three years that are all we do know anything about, but i'd still be damd curious anyway.

not that i'd likely believe anybody who said they did.

but in my personal belief, until that dove symbolic lit on his sholder, however otherwise unusual the circumstances of his birth, he was no different then any other flesh and blood like yours and mine.

=^^=
.../\...

With Christmas approaching, I've been thinking about its Christian meaning. For various historical reasons Christmas is a much bigger deal than Easter is, despite Jesus' death being more important than his birth in Christianity (as far as I can tell anyway, I am not a Christian myself). And it got me wandering, what do Christians actually believe is the most important moment in Jesus' life?

The bit where he was protected from Lord Voldemort's attack, by the love of his parents. The whole story really hinges on that one moment.

His second coming would be pretty important, it signalling the end of the world we know, a war that would make World War II look like a friendly chat in comparison, and a new world order free from corruption, sin, and pain. No disease. No suffering. No famine. No war. And all it will take is a huge, possibly nuclear, war that wipes out just about all life on earth. All those good enough to get into heaven get to enjoy it. Nothing says important like the apocalypse wiping out all life on earth. Oh, and Bush can't be the AntiChrist. The Anti-Christ is supposed to be extremely popular worldwide. Just thought I'd throw that in there as a precaution.

His death and ressurection are also important. His death basically allows our sins to be forgiven as long as we are sorry about sinning (and not just sorry we got caught) and his coming back in non-zombie form proves he's badass.

I tend to find this sort of question roughly on par with "so what was the most important event in Gandalf's life?

His death and ressurection, ironically enough.

Offhand I'd say it was the time He spent a month hiking the Alps, and subsequently came back with a radically different philosophy of life and greater patience and forgiveness for his fellow-man.


I thought that was because he went to India and studied Buddhism? :)

yes but if you found someone elses message more interesting, would you change to that religion? suppose you read up on buddhism and decide that the 8fold path is a great way to live your life, would you become buddhist? (just pretend, i dont want a discussion of why christianity is better than buddhism)

i submit that you would not. that you would stick with christianity because you believe that jesus is the son of god and the one true path to heaven. nothing in his philosophy of life or the details of his life can be more important than that. his death and resurrection is the one unescapable fact that overrides any allure that buddhism (or whatever) might carry.

What Jesus have said is more important than his resurrection I meant, otherwords, I do not care about heaven or earth. And also I don't give a pint to budhism, "Jesus have said God is Love" which part of this philosophy was suitable for Paulus you think??? He just re-arranged the old roman religions to christianity that is the fact.

yes but if you found someone elses message more interesting, would you change to that religion? suppose you read up on buddhism and decide that the 8fold path is a great way to live your life, would you become buddhist? (just pretend, i dont want a discussion of why christianity is better than buddhism)

i submit that you would not. that you would stick with christianity because you believe that jesus is the son of god and the one true path to heaven. nothing in his philosophy of life or the details of his life can be more important than that. his death and resurrection is the one unescapable fact that overrides any allure that buddhism (or whatever) might carry.

'his' past three 'second commings'. (mohammid, the bab, and baha'u'llah)

i'd also be damd curious about the first 30 years of his live, about which we know absolutely nothing.

not that they'd be neccessarily pertinent to what he tried to say in those last three years that are all we do know anything about, but i'd still be damd curious anyway.

not that i'd likely believe anybody who said they did.

but in my personal belief, until that dove symbolic lit on his sholder, however otherwise unusual the circumstances of his birth, he was no different then any other flesh and blood like yours and mine.

=^^=
.../\...

Mohammid is not Jesus, was not Jesus and couldn't be Jesus. It is just because of so called Christians stucking up to second coming of Jesus (like Paulus) they have created Anti Christ... That is all (and even now they can not see the difference between what Jesus said, what Paul said, and which is used by todays Christianity. I am a Christ Believer not a Paulustian.

Mohammid is not Jesus, was not Jesus and couldn't be JesusOf course not. According to the Quran, Jesus was just another run-of-the-mill prophet. Surely Mohammed being THE Prophet makes him superior, Quran-wise.

Christian Teaching:

Easter = Most important part of Jesus' time on earth.

"more like a 100% cotton undershirt covered by a 100% polyester dress shirt.

it has some special mystery name that is not coming to me right now."

What you are stating is called "the Nestorian heresy". Good Christians believed for centuries that they should burn people like you alive for uttering such clumsy phrasings.

lol

ill count my blessings that i live in the 21st century where the internet has made good phrasing as irrelevant as it has made good spelling, grammar and punctuation.

yes but if you found someone elses message more interesting, would you change to that religion? suppose you read up on buddhism and decide that the 8fold path is a great way to live your life, would you become buddhist? (just pretend, i dont want a discussion of why christianity is better than buddhism)

I would ;)

i submit that you would not. that you would stick with christianity because you believe that jesus is the son of god and the one true path to heaven. nothing in his philosophy of life or the details of his life can be more important than that. his death and resurrection is the one unescapable fact that overrides any allure that buddhism (or whatever) might carry.

Why ? Other religions have similar miracles. Often with slightly more evidence that they actually happened even.

What Jesus have said is more important than his resurrection I meant, otherwords, I do not care about heaven or earth. And also I don't give a pint to budhism, "Jesus have said God is Love" which part of this philosophy was suitable for Paulus you think??? He just re-arranged the old roman religions to christianity that is the fact.

id like some specifics of what you are referring to about jesus that doesnt include heaven and earth.

would you follow him if he were just another guy with a radical philosophy of life? DO you follow jesus teaching as outlined in the gospels? you know, turn the other cheek, give all you have to the poor, treat everyone with love and respect even the most disgusting of people, etc

I would ;)



Why ? Other religions have similar miracles. Often with slightly more evidence that they actually happened even.

oh im not saying that everyone should be a christian. im saying that if you ARE a christian, especially a devout one, that the sacrifice of jesus on the cross and his resurrection is the central event of christianity that makes everything else about jesus important.

its not like jesus was the first guy to preach what he preached. he wasnt the last. many other religious traditions have equally good morals and ethics. some you might even find that you would prefer for running your own life. the only reason to pick christianity over other belief systems (outside of the societal aspect of going with the flow in a largely christian community) is because you believe that jesus died for your sins and is the way into heaven.

the only reason to pick christianity over other belief systems (outside of the societal aspect of going with the flow in a largely christian community) is because you believe that jesus died for your sins and is the way into heaven.

That actually sounds incredibly selfish/self-centered...
Then again, maybe humans have the right to be selfish about their own life.

The most important event in Gandolfs life was 9 months before he was born, when his parents decided to have sex. Id bet that scene would have doubled DVD sales ;)Gandalf wasn't born. He's an Ainu.

jesus was fully divine and fully human at the same time.Being divine, conquering death is no big deal. He knew he couldn't die.

jesus was fully divine and fully human at the same time.

No, because he never existed

That actually sounds incredibly selfish/self-centered...
Then again, maybe humans have the right to be selfish about their own life.

i suppose it is. but at least you arent required to kill and eat babies to get into heaven. (dodged a bullet on that one, eh?)

Being divine, conquering death is no big deal. He knew he couldn't die.

he did die.

No, because he never existed

is it so hard to think inside the box?

its a discussion that supposes that he DID exist and that he was actually the son of god.

that he never existed is not pertinent to the discussion.

is it so hard to think inside the box?
yup

its a discussion that supposes that he DID exist and that he was actually the son of god.
a ridiculous supposition

that he never existed is not pertinent to the discussion.

it should be

is it so hard to think inside the box?

its a discussion that supposes that he DID exist and that he was actually the son of god.

that he never existed is not pertinent to the discussion.

As I stated before - if you consider his teachings the most important his existence or nonexistence is irrelevant.

yup


a ridiculous supposition



it should be

nah its as much a hijack as the gandalf thing is. (and i am still waiting for UB to tell me why gandalf's death is the most important event in his life.)

you should start a new thread on the topic

grrrr i cant get the jolt search to work. but there was a topic called "did jesus really exist" that you might be able to find if you can get the search to work. dont gravedig, just look through the topic and see if you really want to re-open that can of worms.

we can start it again if you like, its a topic i never tire of.

nah its as much a hijack as the gandalf thing is. (and i am still waiting for UB to tell me why gandalf's death is the most important event in his life.)

you should start a new thread on the topic

grrrr i cant get the jolt search to work. but there was a topic called "did jesus really exist" that you might be able to find if you can get the search to work. dont gravedig, just look through the topic and see if you really want to re-open that can of worms.

we can start it again if you like, its a topic i never tire of.

Don't really care that much, just was bored and wanted to see if anybody would respond

Definitely his birth. If he hadn't been born, Santa wouldn't be on his way in 4 days time & I wouldn't be drinking Christmas beers right now.

As I stated before - if you consider his teachings the most important his existence or nonexistence is irrelevant.His teachings aren't really that spectacular.

The teachings of the fictional Jesus character are really great, but what really drives it home is the that he voluntarily died to show just how serious this altruism business is, so I voted for his death. It was tragic, and the thing that really demonstrated the importance of his teachings to the disciples.

Then they had to Disnify it and tack on a happy ending with the resurrection and put a sequel teaser with the second coming crap. That kinda spoiled it. Gospel of Mark had it right with the tragedy. Everybody else tried to improve on it without realizing what it really meant.

Mohammid is not Jesus, was not Jesus and couldn't be Jesus. It is just because of so called Christians stucking up to second coming of Jesus (like Paulus) they have created Anti Christ... That is all (and even now they can not see the difference between what Jesus said, what Paul said, and which is used by todays Christianity. I am a Christ Believer not a Paulustian.

well i'm glad someone at least recognizes THAT distinction. between some guy named jesus and the christ spirit which was his chanelling of something all four major western monotheisms, albiet by different arbitrarily imposed names, recognize as something big, friendly and nontangable they call "god".

something which of course, saul of tarsus, the so called saint paul, who indeed wrote, only AFTER the book of revilation had been written, was not.

it is however that christ spirit, the same spirit that was the channelling of moses, abraham, the 18 (thousand year average each, like just as manifestations since) begat's in the book of numbers predating all of them, back to 24 thousand years ago in aulduvoi, that of course includes mohammid the bab, and baha'u'llah since.

none of which, including that jesus feller himself, were the god they channelled.

i really don't think though, that what happened in any of thier lives, however fascinating or even filled with wonder any of them might be, is as pertinant, today, or any day, as simply that whatever god or gods there are, have left it entirely up to us, to avoid screwing everything up for each other.

to me, that is what this midwinter's eve celibration is all about reminding ourselves and each other.

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