NationStates Jolt Archive

First off, this is NOT about Chrisitanity and it's viewpoint of Homosexuality, but other RELIGIONS. Like Islam, Scientology, Jewish, etc... so let's not get stuck on Christianity.

Many times you see here, on these forums, people arguing for or against homosexuality and using the Bible for getting their message across. Levitcus is habitually used and argued over.

but when you read about an Islamic nation stoning/killing a homosexual couple, the argument is almost always one sided. "they [the nation] are backwards", "that's the problem of a secular nation", etc...

However what is lacking is where in their Religous text does it state that Homosexuality is a sin and one punishable by death?

Does Scientology make such a stand or does it even care?

Lets see some verses and quotes from those texts... don't just say it, back it up with religous text.

Again, this is NOT a thread about Christianity and Homosexuality, but other Religions and their stance on Homosexuality as referenced in their Holy Text, so let's also avoid the "all religons are bunk" and "all religous texts are contradictory".

oh, and please keep it civil. :cool:

"The sexual pervert (and by this term Dianetics, to be brief, includes any and all forms of deviation in dynamic two such as homosexuality, lesbianism [sic], sexual sadism, etc., and all down the catalog of Ellis and Krafft-Ebing) is actually quite ill physically."
-L. Ron Hubbard

Hubbard viewed homosexuals as suffering from a mental illness. He recommended that they be either quarantined or cured (using his...unique methodology).

The judeo-christian bible condemns homosexuality.

So does the koran (which is why it's a capital offense in six countries: Saudi Arabia, Iran, Mauritania, Sudan, Somalia and Yemen)

Zoroastrianism opposes it, and sets a penalty to the same for breaking a contract (the value of an ox -- remember, they used barter when the religion was still widespread).

Hinduism varies a lot, but india's opinion of it was driven down when the British controlled it.

Buddhism feels that it's negative but does not punish it. Thailan'd top buddhists condmen it, but the Dalai Lama supports human rights for all, "regardless of sexual orientation."

Sikhism opposes it (along with homosexual marriages), but there are no laws calling for punishments.

Jainism claims it causes negative karma, but has no laws calling for punishments.

Confucianism frowns on it, but seems to have no problem as long as men fulfill their "duty" of getting married and having children. TRIVIA: Chinese attroibute homosexuality to Shi Huang Di, the founds of the Qin dynasty and the first ruler to unify China.

Taoism is a bit unclear -- they view it as unharmonious (two yins or two yangs instead of a yin and a yang), but do not seem to forbid it.

Ancient greek and roman religion has no problem with homosexuality, nor do neopagans.

Atma is straight but has no problem with homosexuality.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_homosexuality (and the various links)

Japanese views on homosexuality and how that has influenced, and have been influenced by, Shintoism and Buddhism, has varried a lot over the years. Broadly speaking, it is not sinful to be homosexual, but it is not socially acceptable as the 'natural' way is for a man and a woman to have children to pass on the traditions of Japan... but you can use the same argument to say that homosexuality is natural and therefor to be celebrated. There's no real hard rule about it, or text to back it up.

Does this mean zoophilia is ok, too?

Buddhism feels that it's negative but does not punish it. Thailan'd top buddhists condmen it, but the Dalai Lama supports human rights for all, "regardless of sexual orientation."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_homosexuality (and the various links)

I believe that Wiki article has been tampered with as it use to state something along the lines of "That love is rare and should be valued" and/or "All love is sacred." I know that many of Eastern societies frowns on homosexuality as families pressure for more generations. I remember some articles (I'll have too scout for them) about homosexuality in Hinduism and culture, and how Hindu priest were trying to discourage recent acts of violence toward gay culture. Also , I should throw in that many of Native American Societies tolerated/ accepted homosexuality. For example: twin spirit usually referred to a member of a sex taking on the role(s) of the other sex. Another would be Chin, Mayan god (I believe) of tricks, and homosexuality. I will try to find the links/articles soon enough.

Does this mean zoophilia is ok, too?

Intersting. I wonder what religious texts have to say about it... Let's see : Mary had sex with a white pigeon, Zeus would regularly turn himself into an a bull or a swan for a shag, a Hindu was recently made to marry a goat by the religious leaders of his village as he had "taken her virginity".

I think there are very few religions that have a problem with zoophilia.

I tihnk Judaism isn't fond of teh gheys either. Leviticus is OT, right? Other tyhan that I don't rightly know.

Pastafarianism has no problem with homosexuality.

Does this mean zoophilia is ok, too?

Animals, like children, aren't capable of giving legal consent. So, no.

Consent, people, that's what counts. I'm tired of these craptacular "but won't that make us slide into pedophilia and beastiality being legalized?" statements. They're retarded.

Animals, like children, aren't capable of giving legal consent. So, no.

Consent, people, that's what counts. I'm tired of these craptacular "but won't that make us slide into pedophilia and beastiality being legalized?" statements. They're retarded.

Couldn't agree more. But since the question here is the points of views of different religions, I have to say that zoophilia generally seems to be more accepted than homosexuality. Odd, but there you go.

Couldn't agree more. But since the question here is the points of views of different religions, I have to say that zoophilia generally seems to be more accepted than homosexuality. Odd, but there you go.

It does seem rather strange. "Helen, why are you fucking that dog?" "Oh? Well, he's god, you see, I'm trying to get knocked up and give birth to a superbaby"

Just... noooo

Anyway, does anyone know if there's any information regarding Celtic paganism's view on homosexuality?

Views seem highly varied in religions throughout history.

Discordia has no issue with pink slippery butterflies or gay people.

In fact OMNOMNOMNOM :fluffle: For mixed states, the reduced von Neumann entropy is not the unique entanglement measure!

Jews don't take what the Christians call the OT as literal as the Christians themselves do, at least not those who could be considered Reformed Jews. The more conservative ones follow it more closely but not everything is literal. The orthodox ones take it as literal as it can get. So you do get varying degrees on the tolerance and acceptance of homosexuality here.

The extremely conservative sects that already act like dickholes toward women pretty much rank homosexuality down there with other nasty things.

Sikhism opposes it (along with homosexual marriages), but there are no laws calling for punishments.

I'm a Sikh and I have never read anything, neither condemeing nor condoneing homosexuality in our Guru Granth Sahib. Would you have any relevant info?

Anyway, does anyone know if there's any information regarding Celtic paganism's view on homosexuality?


While there are no sweeping statements promoting homosexuality in the ancient Celtic lore, there are multiple accounts from external observers who commented on the widespread practice of homosexuality among the Gaulish Celts. The Greek philosopher Posidonius, who traveled into Gaul to investigate the truth of the stories told about the Celtic tribes, put it rather bluntly: “The Gaulish men prefer to have sex with each other.” This is supported by some Aristotelian commentaries as well.

As far as we know, the ancient Celts had no laws or known prohibitions against homosexual behaviour. To the contrary, there are tales and histories in which homosexuality is mentioned in a rather matter-of-fact way, as well as many other accounts which, while containing no explicit mention of any character’s sexual orientation, celebrate deep bonds between persons of the same gender. Roman and Greek accounts both mention Celtic warriors who were deeply insulted if their offers of homosexual sex were refused.

There is at least one Irish tale, “Niall Frossach” from The Book of Leinster, where lesbian sex is specifically mentioned (as “playful mating”), and no one in the tale treats this as remarkable or shameful. The myths and histories contain references to Islands of Women and societies of “virgin” priestesses, and there are a number of Deities who do not fit neatly into rigid gender roles. There are Goddesses of war and battle, and Gods of love and poetry. The Sea God Manannán is the only God welcome on the Isle of Women, and he drives his chariot through fields of purple flowers. There is also a tradition of male praise-poets who wrote about the kings they served as a lover writes of their beloved. Many historical commentaries on warriors and monastics speak of devoted companions who shared a bed, and often the love between these companions is celebrated in poetry and songs.

While most scholars believe that “Gay identity” is a modern construct, and only exists in reaction to oppression, there is also agreement that homosexuality and bisexuality have always existed, and were certainly a part of Celtic culture.

Going on to Norse Mythology, it should be noted that the God 'Loki' was a trickster who could alter his gender at will. In fact, he was both a father and a mother and even gave birth to the eight-legged horse which was presented as a gift to Odin. I have also seen texts which 'hint' that Odin and Loki may have been more than just associates. I have seen nothing in Norse Mythology or texts which would either condemn nor openly promote homosexuality, however I have seen examples which suggest it existed. I will try to relocate those examples so I can present them as quotes.

I'm a Sikh and I have never read anything, neither condemeing nor condoneing homosexuality in our Guru Granth Sahib. Would you have any relevant info?

Is it because Sikhism is like Iran and has no homosexuals? ;)

Is it because Sikhism is like Iran and has no homosexuals? ;)

Heh no I have plenty of gay Sikh friends. A little background for ya.

The Guru Granth Sahib is the Sikh holy scripture, composed by the ten Sikh Gurus whilst they where alive, and invested with Guruship by the tenth and last Human Sikh Guru, Guru Gobhind Singh ji.

Which means to a Sikh our holy scripture is to be regarded as our Guru. Which means that we turn to it for all of our religious teachings.

There is no mention of homosexuality in Guru Granth Sahib, which tells us Sikhs that the ten Gurus either had nowt to say on the matter(in which case it does not matter)
or that they just plain forgot to place their thoughts on the subject down in writing(in which case it does not matter).

Being a Sikh and turning to my Guru for clarification on this matter, Guru tells me that, yep, it does not matter.

Being a Sikh and turning to my Guru for clarification on this matter, Guru tells me that, yep, it does not matter.

Thanks for the clarification.

And yes, sexuality doesn't matters. :)

Just out of curiosity, how did the native american nations and australian aboriginals view homosexuality?

Just out of curiosity, how did the native american nations and australian aboriginals view homosexuality?

My understanding from reading much, and particularly, one former Generalite, was that homosexuals were seen as having two natures, one male, and one female.
This was usually seen as a blessing. It imparted a broader sense of wisdom.
Maybe they made better shamans?

As for the Aussie Aboringinals....that I dont know. Good question.

Animals, like children, aren't capable of giving legal consent. So, no.

Consent, people, that's what counts. I'm tired of these craptacular "but won't that make us slide into pedophilia and beastiality being legalized?" statements. They're retarded.

This has what to do with religion?

I haven't read anything specific about Homosexuality in Hindu scriptures but that doesn't mean there isn't any.

Modern Hindu society is very anti-gay and still mired in Victorian values...you can still find the odd house with dining table legs covered with cloth. :rolleyes:

Funny that the same people built these

http://www.kamat.com/kalranga/erotica/khaju.htm

http://goasia.about.com/od/indiaphotography/ig/Erotic-Temples-of-Khajuraho/index.01.htm

a Hindu was recently made to marry a goat by the religious leaders of his village as he had "taken her virginity".

Dunno about this particular case, but it is not strange to see hindus marrying animals to ward off evil. To be specific, their horoscope might suggest that the first wife will have an untimely death. So this guy goes and marries a tree and then they "kill" the tree.:p Now the horoscope is cleared and the guy can marry a regular person. Superstitious people do this...it is becoming rare though.

This has what to do with religion?

It was an annoyed response to a dumbass post. Don't get all mad at me for trying to nip the usual slippery slope "oh society's going to hell in a handbasket if we're not mean to teh gayz" crap in the bud as soon as it was posted.

While there are no sweeping statements promoting homosexuality in the ancient Celtic lore, there are multiple accounts from external observers who commented on the widespread practice of homosexuality among the Gaulish Celts. The Greek philosopher Posidonius, who traveled into Gaul to investigate the truth of the stories told about the Celtic tribes, put it rather bluntly: “The Gaulish men prefer to have sex with each other.” This is supported by some Aristotelian commentaries as well.

As far as we know, the ancient Celts had no laws or known prohibitions against homosexual behaviour. To the contrary, there are tales and histories in which homosexuality is mentioned in a rather matter-of-fact way, as well as many other accounts which, while containing no explicit mention of any character’s sexual orientation, celebrate deep bonds between persons of the same gender. Roman and Greek accounts both mention Celtic warriors who were deeply insulted if their offers of homosexual sex were refused.

There is at least one Irish tale, “Niall Frossach” from The Book of Leinster, where lesbian sex is specifically mentioned (as “playful mating”), and no one in the tale treats this as remarkable or shameful. The myths and histories contain references to Islands of Women and societies of “virgin” priestesses, and there are a number of Deities who do not fit neatly into rigid gender roles. There are Goddesses of war and battle, and Gods of love and poetry. The Sea God Manannán is the only God welcome on the Isle of Women, and he drives his chariot through fields of purple flowers. There is also a tradition of male praise-poets who wrote about the kings they served as a lover writes of their beloved. Many historical commentaries on warriors and monastics speak of devoted companions who shared a bed, and often the love between these companions is celebrated in poetry and songs.

While most scholars believe that “Gay identity” is a modern construct, and only exists in reaction to oppression, there is also agreement that homosexuality and bisexuality have always existed, and were certainly a part of Celtic culture.

Going on to Norse Mythology, it should be noted that the God 'Loki' was a trickster who could alter his gender at will. In fact, he was both a father and a mother and even gave birth to the eight-legged horse which was presented as a gift to Odin. I have also seen texts which 'hint' that Odin and Loki may have been more than just associates. I have seen nothing in Norse Mythology or texts which would either condemn nor openly promote homosexuality, however I have seen examples which suggest it existed. I will try to relocate those examples so I can present them as quotes.

Why thank you, good sir. That was quite informative.

I had a suspicion that the pagans, especially the famously sexed up Celtic ones, were a bit less hung up about this sort of thing.

A loving, sexual relationship between two male samurai was considered the highest form of love they could acheive, and a marriage was mainly for raising kids, and working the farm.

*nods*

A loving, sexual relationship between two male samurai was considered the highest form of love they could acheive, and a marriage was mainly for raising kids, and working the farm.

*nods*

.. can you back that up? I know most... er... paintings depict one man and one woman... and even the greeks and romans there were indications of homosexuality... but I never heard of anything indicating japanese samurai...

.. can you back that up? I know most... er... paintings depict one man and one woman... and even the greeks and romans there were indications of homosexuality... but I never heard of anything indicating japanese samurai...
Depends on the time period, while I wouldn't put it exactly as BackwoodsSquatches did, there were times when taking a male lover was considered to be a normal thing to do.

…homosexuality, lesbianism [sic]…

How odd.

Unitarian Universalism has no problem with homosexuality. Its just part of who you are.

Well, since no one seems to have addressed Scientology...

Hubbard thought it was an aberration, and that it could be cured using Dianetics.

The Church of Scientology has not taken any of that back, but is said to be a little more accepting on the subject, although not in favor of gay marriage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Scientology

Just out of curiosity, how did the native american nations and australian aboriginals view homosexuality?

From androphile.org:

"The first step on the path to a two-spirit life was taken during childhood. The Papago ritual is representative of this early integration: If parents noticed that a son was disinterested in boyish play or manly work they would set up a ceremony to determine which way the boy would be brought up. They would make an enclosure of brush, and place in the center both a man’s bow and a woman’s basket. The boy was told to go inside the circle of brush and to bring something out, and as he entered the brush would be set on fire. “They watched what he took with him as he ran out, and if it was the basketry materials they reconciled [sic] themselves to his being a berdache.” "

"All tribes were aware of the existence of two-spirit people, and each still has a name for them. The Dinéh (Navaho) refer to them as nàdleehé one who is ‘transformed’, the Lakota (Sioux) as winkte, the Mohave as alyha, the Zuni as lhamana, the Omaha as mexoga, the Aleut and Kodiak as achnucek, the Zapotec as ira’ muxe, the Cheyenne as he man eh. [5] This abundance of terms testifies to the familiarity of Native Americans with gender-variant people. For proof of the sacred role they held, and hold, in Native society we again turn to Native sources. Terry Calling Eagle, a Lakota man, recounts: “Winktes have to be born that way. People know that a person is going to become a winkte very early in his life. At about age twelve parents will take him to a ceremony to communicate with past winktes who had power, to verify if it is just a phase or a permanent thing for his lifetime. If the proper vision takes place, and communication with a past winkte is established, then everybody accepts him as a winkte.” "

"In everyday life the two-spirit male typically would wear women’s clothes and do women’s work. He would be accepted as “one of the girls.” He might take a husband from among the men of the tribe, or might have affairs with several, or both. Generally two-spirit males were not expected to have sexual relations with women. None of these “rules” however were ironbound. "

"Besides their spiritual abilities, their capacity for work also figured into the high status of two-spirit people. Even though a two-spirit male would have taken on the gender identity of a woman, he would still have the endurance and strength of a man. Thus his productivity was greater than that of most women, and for that reason also he would have been valued as a marriage partner. Other characteristics that Natives associate with two-spirit people and that help explain their desirability as partners are a highly developed ability to relate to and teach children, a generous nature, and exceptional intellectual and artistic skills."

.. can you back that up? I know most... er... paintings depict one man and one woman... and even the greeks and romans there were indications of homosexuality... but I never heard of anything indicating japanese samurai...

For more information on it check out www.androphile.org/preview/Culture/Japan/japan.htm

Apparently they were similar to the ancient Greeks in that an older warrior took an adolescent boy as a lover/apprentice.