NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22293189/

Granted, the king said he thought the sentence was just, but he pardoned her for other reasons...I guess there's some measure of common sense.

There are two sad things to this story, though - Abdullah pardoned her with reservation, as if to say, "She deserves it, but since it's in the nation's best interests, I'll pardon her," rather than to say, "ARE YOU FUCKING INSANE? SENTENCING A RAPE VICTIM TO LASHINGS AND JAIL? HOW FUCKING STUPID DO OUR JUDGES HAVE TO BE TO PULL SHIT LIKE THIS?"

The worse thing? I'm sure the people will call for Abdullah's head for this, and the girl will either end up dead or have to flee the country. And probably die trying.

While the law is ridiculous, I don't see why being a rape victim precludes you from being a criminal. But perhaps I'm just crazy.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22293189/

Granted, the king said he thought the sentence was just, but he pardoned her for other reasons...I guess there's some measure of common sense.

There are two sad things to this story, though - Abdullah pardoned her with reservation, as if to say, "She deserves it, but since it's in the nation's best interests, I'll pardon her," rather than to say, "ARE YOU FUCKING INSANE? SENTENCING A RAPE VICTIM TO LASHINGS AND JAIL? HOW FUCKING STUPID DO OUR JUDGES HAVE TO BE TO PULL SHIT LIKE THIS?"

The worse thing? I'm sure the people will call for Abdullah's head for this, and the girl will either end up dead or have to flee the country. And probably die trying.

Backward savages. They'd be dancing around fire all day if it wasnt for the oil money.

While the law is ridiculous, I don't see why being a rape victim precludes you from being a criminal. But perhaps I'm just crazy.

The "crime" of being alone with a man whilst you're being raped?

The "crime" of being alone with a man whilst you're being raped?

While the law is ridiculous, I don't see why being a rape victim precludes you from being a criminal. But perhaps I'm just crazy.

You see how that works?

While the law is ridiculous, I don't see why being a rape victim precludes you from being a criminal.
It doesn't, of course. And nobody is claiming it does.

What people take issue with is the idea that a rape victim has committed a crime by "getting herself raped," or by speaking openly and truthfully about what happened to her. The law itself is the problem, obviously.

Saying "There is some sanity in Saudi Arabia..." is like saying "There is some air on Mars..."

While the law is ridiculous, I don't see why being a rape victim precludes you from being a criminal. But perhaps I'm just crazy.

In all honesty though has anybody here suggested it does? In addition whats the point of even posting that, you know how some are going to take it?

The man she was with got raped too.

Saying "There is some sanity in Saudi Arabia..." is like saying "There is some air on Mars..."

And if we found air on Mars, it would be a huge breakthrough. Maybe one day, we can turn that air into an atmosphere. Just like we can turn that sanity into someplace worth living in if you're not an oil-rich prince.

My suggestion? Anonymous dropping of crates full of beers, Bibles, and blue jeans. They'll think it's the U.S. but they can't prove anything, and they'll go insane.

There is some sanity in Saudi Arabia...

Some... but not much.

While the law is ridiculous, I don't see why being a rape victim precludes you from being a criminal. But perhaps I'm just crazy.

As some of our friendly nutjob forumers (who still live with their parents, incidentally) would suggest: IT'S COZ THEY WEAR PROVOCATIVE CLOTHING OMG!

In the Muslim world, of course, provocative means 'OMA (oh my Allah) I CAN SEE ALMOST ONE SQUARE MILLIMETRE OF SKIN ON HER LEFT HAND!!!1'

Or something to that effect.

It doesn't, of course. And nobody is claiming it does.

Ah. Goody. :)

It doesn't, of course. And nobody is claiming it does.

What people take issue with is the idea that a rape victim has committed a crime by "getting herself raped," or by speaking openly and truthfully about what happened to her. The law itself is the problem, obviously.

Wrong. She committed a crime because she was in a car with a man who wasn't her husband or a relative. Before she was raped. Those men who raped her got 2 to 9 years in prison.

While the law is ridiculous, I don't see why being a rape victim precludes you from being a criminal. But perhaps I'm just crazy.

Only if the crime is a crime under sane or "western" law. You agree with this? Not some law that says she committed a crime because she was alone with a man she didn't know.

Let's just say that she robbed a bank and while making her getaway, she got ambushed an raped by a group of men. The fact that she got raped, and the men getting time n prison doesn't change the fact that she robbed a bank.

Now in Saudi Arabia, it's illegal for a woman to be alone with a man who isn't a relative. Well, that's a stupid fucking law, and the sooner ridiculous remnants of medieval times kept alive by religion fade into obscurity the better. Much like the Catholic refusal to allow women to be priests. But it IS the law and she did break it.

What surprises me is that the rapists in question weren't summarily executed for raping the man with her. As ridiculous as their treatment toward women is, they are even more barbaric toward homosexuality. *nod*

To quote a certain Gaulish character,... "These Saudis are crazy".

This wouldnt have been such a problem had she bought rape victim credits from Al Gore.

My suggestion? Anonymous dropping of crates full of beers, Bibles, and blue jeans. They'll think it's the U.S. but they can't prove anything, and they'll go insane.

Most people are already insane. They just won't admit it to themselves.

But anyway, I was glad to hear that she had been pardoned.

Only if the crime is a crime under sane or "western" law. You agree with this? Not some law that says she committed a crime because she was alone with a man she didn't know.

Yeah, it's a stupid fucking law, and should be abolished. But, it is the law and she did break it, which has nothing to do with her being raped.

In fact, the law should not have sympathy for her as a law breaker simply because she was raped. The fact she was raped did not make her crime any less criminal, under the law.

If you wish to protest this, protest that she was punished under a barbaric law, not because that somehow as a victim of one crime she is somehow shielded from her punishments for committing a wholy seperate crime

In the Muslim world, of course, provocative means 'OMA (oh my Allah) I CAN SEE ALMOST ONE SQUARE MILLIMETRE OF SKIN ON HER LEFT HAND!!!1'

Or something to that effect.

have you been to jordan/syria/egypt/lebanon? we show more skin than nearly anyone

This wouldnt have been such a problem had she bought rape victim credits from Al Gore.

http://www.boomspeed.com/looonatic/exploding-head.gif

have you been to jordan/syria/egypt/lebanon? we show more skin than nearly anyone

I doubt that... Unless by "nearly anyone" you mean "no one"!!! HAHAHA the wittiness *High fives all round*.

Seriously though, we dont want to hear about 'jordan/syria/egypt/lebanonese' prostitutes, or how they wear less "than anyone".

http://www.boomspeed.com/looonatic/exploding-head.gif

I do hope you plan on cleaning up...

Seriously though, we dont want to hear about 'jordan/syria/egypt/lebanonese' prostitutes, or how they wear less "than anyone".

why not?

why not?

hes got a point. Why not?

Well...it's not like he scrapped the law or reformed it. He has just pardoned one case because of the uncomfortable international attention. What about the others?

Well...it's not like he scrapped the law or reformed it. He has just pardoned one case because of the uncomfortable international attention. What about the others?

Yes. Like, what about the man?

She says two other men then entered the car and took them to a secluded area where others were waiting, and both she and her male companion were raped.

The woman's companion was sentenced to 90 lashes. It is not known if his sentence was also lifted.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7147632.stm

Shari`ah (Islamic Law) would have the man stoned and the woman released - this is according to Al-Qur'an.

Too bad Muhammad's law (ahadith) contradicted his other law (al-Qur'an).

Shari`ah (Islamic Law) would have the man stoned and the woman released - this is according to Al-Qur'an.

Too bad Muhammad's law (ahadith) contradicted his other law (al-Qur'an).

Qur'an sets the principles and hadiths set the precedence. Theoretically, since whatever Muhammed did is correct for he was sinless/mausoom, and since Qur'an is the unaltered word of God - the Qur'an and Hadiths cannot be contradictory (theoretically, mind you).

Scholars become "creative" and fill up the gaps and a mix of all the above becomes Sharia.

The man she was with got raped too.

I don't remember that being mentioned when we did this thread before the pardon! (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=519973) It would explain why he went home and kept quiet when he should have gone for help for the woman.

It does support the interpretation of the rape as punishment (extra-judicial, but is there a distinction in a country where the police beat women on the street?).

The rapists exploiting the legal vulnerability of the two victims for their own satisfaction still seems a more likely explanation.

EDIT: AH! Thanks Gravlen!

==========

Yeah, it's a stupid fucking law, and should be abolished. But, it is the law and she did break it, which has nothing to do with her being raped.

It could have been a factor in why she was raped, though.

In fact, the law should not have sympathy for her as a law breaker simply because she was raped. The fact she was raped did not make her crime any less criminal, under the law.

If you wish to protest this, protest that she was punished under a barbaric law, not because that somehow as a victim of one crime she is somehow shielded from her punishments for committing a wholy seperate crime

Yeah, that sounds correct.

==============

Well...it's not like he scrapped the law or reformed it. He has just pardoned one case because of the uncomfortable international attention. What about the others?

Excellent point. Just like the foreign teacher in Sudan.

If victims of the law around the world have to rely on media attention (and consequent western government pressure) ... well, 99% of them are stuffed. We don't have that much attention! :(

Please don't threadjack with the Qur'an passages just yet ...

The man she was with got raped too.

I'd forgotten about him. Was he pardoned, as well? I sure hope so.

I do hope you plan on cleaning up...

Don't slip in it. :)

Was he pardoned, as well?
No, he's well and truly screwed, so to speak.

No, he's well and truly screwed, so to speak.

Wasn't it the woman who appealed? Doubling his punishment made zero sense and he should at least have it put back to 90 lashes if she goes free.

This is President Bush's pardon! Why didn't he speak for the man too?

*shrug*
I'll answer myself.

This is President Bush's pardon! Why didn't he speak for the man too?

He had only scanty knowledge of the facts, didn't realize his simple statement would give King Abdullah an opening to pardon the woman and appease world opinion, and he's such an ignorant homophobe he has no sympathy for the man. In short, he's a complete stooge.

AP/Google report of Bush's pardon demand. (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iGq9FLAV6j1yedpYvTgLbqwJiXCwD8TAUL781)

If he and his family made the law, why would they think the courts are messed up?

If he and his family made the law, why would they think the courts are messed up?

That's the problem with any supreme authority issuing pardons. It draws attentions to the failings of the legal system they rely on to keep control.

US President shouldn't be able to issue pardons either. GWB's will probably be secret and pre-emptive! But any President really ...

While the law is ridiculous, I don't see why being a rape victim precludes you from being a criminal. But perhaps I'm just crazy.
It just seems difficult to be the criminal and victim of the same violent crime. Is that what you meant?

It's only possible in the Wide, Wonderful World of Islam...

I think we got past the "she was asking for it" phase a number of years ago. And then, it only resulted in an acquittal for the accused (not the same as the victim), not a sentence of pain and imprisonment for the victim (not the same as the accused).

It just seems difficult to be the criminal and victim of the same violent crime. Is that what you meant?

It's only possible in the Wide, Wonderful World of Islam...

What are you talking about?

I think we got past the "she was asking for it" phase a number of years ago. And then, it only resulted in an acquittal for the accused (not the same as the victim), not a sentence of pain and imprisonment for the victim (not the same as the accused).

Look, it's daft that the court would impose punishment on the victim in the same proceeding as it tries the rapist. That sends the message "if you're raped, shut up."

But, she did commit a crime under Saudi law apparently. The court doesn't appear to be an open court, so we only hear what the Justice Ministry chooses to release.

The decision represents a softening approach towards the rape victim. The justice ministry had defended the woman's punishment, branding her an adulteress who "provoked the attack" because she was "indecently dressed".

Guardian, 17 Dec 2007 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/saudi/story/0,,2228798,00.html)

It is interesting to note that the Sharia court has not pardoned the girl. It is the King who has done this. Since the Sharia is held to be following Allah's word and the prophet's life - their decision cannot be held to be wrong - unless done so by a higher Sharia court which the King is not. I may be wrong since I have not researched into the specifics of KSA legal system.

have you been to jordan/syria/egypt/lebanon? we show more skin than nearly anyone

I haven't, no. But now I want to!

It just seems difficult to be the criminal and victim of the same violent crime. Is that what you meant?

It's only possible in the Wide, Wonderful World of Islam...

I think we got past the "she was asking for it" phase a number of years ago. And then, it only resulted in an acquittal for the accused (not the same as the victim), not a sentence of pain and imprisonment for the victim (not the same as the accused).

One of these days you'll read the article and see what she was sentenced for... One of these days... *Sigh*

I'm not holding my breath though.

It is interesting to note that the Sharia court has not pardoned the girl. It is the King who has done this. Since the Sharia is held to be following Allah's word and the prophet's life - their decision cannot be held to be wrong - unless done so by a higher Sharia court which the King is not. I may be wrong since I have not researched into the specifics of KSA legal system.

Nor have I. But it's pretty clear the King is in a difficult position, and this decision for one woman may have detracted from his ability to reform what is plainly bad law and a secretive court system.

Yay for world opinion! Hooray for the Girl from Qatif! Screw the rest of them!

Oh dear ... did Nobel Hobos guilt you all about how we got what we wanted, then found we asked for the wrong thing?

I didn't know about the guy being raped when we did this thread last time. I was wrong too.