NationStates Jolt Archive

Since Morales took office on a platform of Indigenous rights and wealth redistribution there has been tension in Bolivia. Now four of the wealthiest provinces are going to try and fight the changes by declaring autonomy. Do you think this will turn violent? Do you also believe that Bolivia is heading for a possible breakup?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7144447.stm

I think if bolivia continues down its socialist path it will lead to many more problems, including violence. They need to make a commitment to democracy and capitalism.

I'm all for secession/autonomy as a part of weakening monopolies on jurisdiction. Go for it, Bolivia!

This is simply a matter of the elites in the provinces trying to protect their privileged private property in the face of expropriation. This 'declaring autonomy' is just nothing but a counter-reaction, Morales should make it clear that they should back down and if not turn them into the Ukraine of Bolivia. Class struggle under socialism is war friends, and in war people die, the bourgeois will do anything to preserve their power, and Morales if he truly wants to build socialism must be unflinching in his aggravation of the class struggle.

Socialism or death, that must be the banner of the revolutionary movement and the message to the rotten liberal edifice of power.

monopolies on jurisdiction.
Is that just a euphemism for "governments"?

Is that just a euphemism for "governments"?

Well his username indicates quite well that he knows what us leftists do to territories who revolt.

Is that just a euphemism for "governments"?

For state, more properly, as state is a more specific term.

Hmm... Pando, Beni, and Santa Cruz are right on Brazil's border, while Tarija is right next to Argentina. I never studied south american politics too much, but if Morales pushes too much, the continent's largest countries may grow...

Hmm... Pando, Beni, and Santa Cruz are right on Brazil's border, while Tarija is right next to Argentina. I never studied south american politics too much, but if Morales pushes too much, the continent's largest countries may grow...

I wonder how much interest the two neighbors are going to take in this?

Well his username indicates quite well that he knows what us leftists do to territories who revolt.

I do, and I commemorate our response in kind.

Edit: BTW, I asked this before, but you never answered, EA. I know you like Mussolini, Pol Pot and Stalin, but what do you think of Adolf Hitler?

Interesting...

Frankly I think things are heating up, but if Morales has any sense--and I do think he does--he'll be able to calm them down. I think he's going too far left-wise when it comes to the economy, but he's trying to be fair to his people, which is more than most leaders can say.

If there IS violence though...I doubt there will be a breakup. More likely we'll just see another freaking South American military coup.

I do, and I commemorate our response in kind.

Edit: BTW, I asked this before, but you never answered, EA. I know you like Mussolini, Pol Pot and Stalin, but what do you think of Adolf Hitler?
Hitler was nothing but an authoritarian racist whose purges achieved nothing in reality, he only expropriated the property of Jews. As the great man said 'Terror must have Virtue', I do however have some partiality to Strasserism and the left-wing elements of the NSDAP before Hitler killed them.

Anyways back on topic, Morales should be absolutely unflinching in upholding the sovereign territorial integrity of Bolivia as a republic, any reactionary attempt to cynically divide the nation must be crushed. Morales should send in a the troops and kill the ringleaders of this revolt.

Anyways back on topic, Morales should be absolutely unflinching in upholding the sovereign territorial integrity of Bolivia as a republic, any reactionary attempt to cynically divide the nation must be crushed. Morales should send in a the troops and kill the ringleaders of this revolt.

If he tries to "crush" a revolt I think there will be outside forces getting involved if they haven't already. If he wants to keep his country intact and ultimately himself in power he needs to pull out a political solution for this one.

I think if bolivia continues down its socialist path it will lead to many more problems, including violence. They need to make a commitment to democracy and capitalism.

He's a democratically elected leader doing what he was elected for through democartic means. The adversaries of democracy here are his opponents. Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.

If he tries to "crush" a revolt I think there will be outside forces getting involved if they haven't already. If he wants to keep his country intact and ultimately himself in power he needs to pull out a political solution for this one.

Indeed.

Anyways back on topic, Morales should be absolutely unflinching in upholding the sovereign territorial integrity of Bolivia as a republic, any reactionary attempt to cynically divide the nation must be crushed. Morales should send in a the troops and kill the ringleaders of this revolt.

Ahhh the voice of the true socialist
"we are committed to peace :), freedom :) , equality :) and the death of anyone who opposes us":eek:

Ahhh the voice of the true socialist

Hardly.

Ahhh the voice of the true troll

Fixed.

...outside forces getting involved if they haven't already.Indeed Morales is accusing the US to give untold amounts of money to destabilizing groups in Santa Cruz de la Sierra.
No, he does not have proof.

Indeed Morales is accusing the US to give untold amounts of money to destabilizing groups in Santa Cruz de la Sierra.
No, he does not have proof.

He is also getting support from Chavez himself. That game is played both ways. Also, heresay is always proof enough for some.

He is also getting support from Chavez himself. That game is played both ways. Also, heresay is always proof enough for some.The democratically elected Gov of Bolivia asks and gets/buys Weapons from another Country. Whats wrong with that?

On the other hand, the Oligarchs of Santa Cruz -that you love so much- are not the democratically elected Bolivian Gov.. the US giving them money/weapons -for subversion purposes- is Illegal and Immoral.

If the US gov is supporting subversion against a Democratically elected President.. I hope all the US peoples involved are killed and straight go to hell.

Indeed Morales is accusing the US to give untold amounts of money to destabilizing groups in Santa Cruz de la Sierra.


Source?

He is also getting support from Chavez himself. That game is played both ways.

Source?

He is also getting support from Chavez himself. That game is played both ways. Also, heresay is always proof enough for some.
Source?Chavez is helping the people of Bolivia and a Dozen of other countries in America.
He even helped poor neighborhoods in the US. AFAIR

For Bolivia, the generous Country of Venezuela has loaned teachers and doctors.
Several free medical clinics for the poor have been built.

These Venezuela-Bolivarian programs are going to help the 2nd poorest Country of America.

Chavez is helping the people of Bolivia and a Dozen of other countries in America.
He even helped poor neighborhoods in the US. AFAIR

For Bolivia, the generous Country of Venezuela has loaned teachers and doctors.
Several free medical clinics for the poor have been built.

These Venezuela-Bolivarian programs are going to help the 2nd poorest Country of America.

That is an example of the Venezuelan government helping the people of Bolivia. It is not an example of them helping Morales and his factions within the government.

That is an example of the Venezuelan government helping the people of Bolivia.Yes indeed, the great Nation of Venezuela is a leader.. and many peoples/citizens in America are very grateful to that great Country.
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It is not an example of them helping Morales and his factions within the government.

"Morales factions within the government" What does that mean?

Morales is the Democratically elected President of Bolivia.

this whole thread misses the point entirely

Bolivia seems to be suffering from a massive (and here is where I lose everyone) class division, the rich lowlands never come into contact with the poor mountainous and here you are seeing the strain this is causing, especially as riots intensify

what is needed is a greater dialog between the two groups to ease tension being an asshat and not paying your taxes won't solve this (though you will gain allot of funding) especially when you have a population who has experienced the very worst of capitalism

They need to make a commitment to democracy and capitalism.

yeah they should privatize water, triple the price (thus making clean water unaffordable) and then make collecting rainwater illegal

and if they dare kick you out, get the world bank involved!

"his factions within the government" What does that mean?

Morales is the Democratically elected President of Bolivia.

Oh my god.

Morales may be the head of state, but he does not have absolute power over every single person in Bolivia, right? We can safely assume that some people in Bolivia do not like him and want him out of power. Some of these people are also part of the Bolivian government. Let's pretend (to make things simpler than they actually are) that everyone in the Bolivina government either fully supports Morales, or they want him out of power. That would mean that there are two factions in the Bolivian government: a pro-Morales faction, and an anti-Morales faction.

If Venezuela sends stuff to Bolivia, both factions profit. If Venezuela sends stuff only to Morales and his faction, then only Morales and his people profit. So, in terms of the support you and Marrakech seem to be claiming for the various factions, I would like to see sources that these foreign groups (the USA and Venezuela) are supporting the relevant factions within Bolivia, understand?

Oh my god.your God is not going to help you here (NSG)
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Morales may be the head of state.. a "head of state" means bollocks these days, for example the Queen of England is a head of State.
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Morales is the man that the People has Democratically elected to Govern Bolivia.
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.. but he does not have absolute power over every single person in Bolivia, right?You can assume that about any Government in the Planet, not only the Bolivian Gov.
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We can safely assume that some people in Bolivia do not like him and want him out of power.You can assume that about any Government in the Planet, not only the Bolivian Gov.
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Some of these people are also part of the Bolivian government. Of course not.. this is not Italy. where 90% of the time you have faction sleeping on a marriage of convenience to form the Gov.
Morales Won an absolute majority at the last democratic Elections in Bolivia.
He did not have to ally with other "faction" to form a Government.


BTW where are you from? I am getting the impression you are from a Country that rarely gets a Majority Gov.. and Factions have to forge an uneasy alliance of convenience to form a Government.

your God is not going to help you here...
Of course not.. this is not Italy. where 90% of the time you have faction sleeping on a marriage of convenience to form the Gov.
Morales Won an absolute majority at the last democratic Elections in Bolivia.
He did not have to ally with other "faction" to form a Government.

None of what you wrote addresses the point.

You claimed this:

Indeed Morales is accusing the US to give untold amounts of money to destabilizing groups in Santa Cruz de la Sierra.

Do you have a source for this?

You claimed this:
Do you have a source for this?If you quote my full post you will see that I already preempted that with a simple "No". Yes I am lazy sometimes. Sue-me© ;)
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None of what you wrote addresses the point.I am addressing your ridiculous claim about enemy Factions Inside the Government.

I wonder how much interest the two neighbors are going to take in this?

Can you blame them? If a province wants autonomy and will get it under another's system, they might as well defect. The right thing of course is for Morales to give them their autonomy. Bolivia is not homogeneous, and its provinces have different interests, which their elected representatives are making clear to Morales. If the national government imposes its agenda on them, they have the right to stand up and decide their own fate.

None of what you wrote addresses the point.
Do you have a source for this?

He never has a source for anything. Anyway, if you google it you'll eventually find a few mentions on a online newspaper about aid. About USA and Santa Cruz, I didn't found anything, but I wouldn't doubt it myself.

If Chavez gives aid to poor people in London and NY, why wouldn't he give to Bolivia? (even if he does that only to gather sympathy towards his government)If the US gives support like that worldwide and since a long time, why wouldn't they do it in Santa Cruz? The point is Santa Cruz must make what's best and more profitable for themselves, not for Bolivia or for the US.

Sue-me© ;)

Good idea! *begins writing a lawsuit against OD*

I am addressing you ridiculous claim that there is more than one faction was elected to the Bolivian Government.

Of course, only one faction is represented at the national bolivian government.

If the US gives support like that worldwide and since a long time, why wouldn't they do it in Santa Cruz?If the US Gov is giving money/weapons -to a subversive group- to undermine a Democratically Elected President.. It is illegal and Immoral.

Of course, only one faction is represented at the national bolivian government.you understand that, I understand that, my 12 years old cousin would understand that..

Gift-of-God brain is blocked on his (enemy factions inside the Gov) logic.

Good idea! *begins writing a lawsuit against OD*LOL.. check with the NSG Lawyers NeoArt/TCT/etc

this might actually quality as a class action. :D

He never has a source for anything. Anyway, if you google it you'll eventually find a few mentions on a online newspaper about aid. http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN29357085
(Reuters) - Bolivia's leftist government accused the Bush administration on Wednesday of funneling U.S. aid to groups linked to opponents of President Evo Morales, a charge Washington denied.

Government Minister Juan Ramon Quintana claimed the United States was "meddling" in Bolivian politics by channeling millions of dollars in aid to conservative opposition leaders and think-tanks critical of Morales, a fierce U.S. critic.

In Washington, State Department spokesman Tom Casey strongly rejected the charges.

"There is absolutely no truth to any allegation that the U.S. is using its aid funds to try and influence the political process, or in any way undermine the government there," Casey said.

What do you know. Another aspiring South American dictator who feeds his people the poison of socialism in exchange for some kind of pathetic hero-worship. This works because the people there are way too stupid to know better than to support this asshole. How long will it take the Bolivian people to realise that the destruction of the rights of the individual and the limitation of personal potential, as well as the elimination of the way to prosperity. For more on the disgusting fondness South America has for socialism, and why it's so backward economically, try reading The Birth of Plenty. And to the socialist-defending troglodyte, the talk about the "bourgouisie" doing anything to hold on to power is truly idiotic. Anyone who buys into this "class war crap has to have brain damage. The theory of a static, exclusionary oligarchy is true in very few places, and where it is, it isn't because of Capitalism. The elites in countries like I just described are actually working against Capitalism, by eliminating competition. In a Capitalistic society, the abilities of a person who is more gifted than most or has her own special ideas or skills can allow her to fully achieve her potential and allow her to obtain proseperity and live a happy and comfortable life. Capitalism's true worth lies in its meritocratic nature, due to competition. Socialism is an anathema to meritocracy, due to the destruction of individualism and the limitation of personal growth and potential. As for morales, I think the perscription is obvious. A trotsky special, an ice pick to the back of the head, might be a nice solution. :mp5: I would rather starve under freedom than have a full belly under socialism or communism.

I am addressing your ridiculous claim about enemy Factions Inside the Government.

faction (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/faction_1?view=uk)

• noun a small dissenting group within a larger one.

Does that help?

Can you blame them? If a province wants autonomy and will get it under another's system, they might as well defect. The right thing of course is for Morales to give them their autonomy. Bolivia is not homogeneous, and its provinces have different interests, which their elected representatives are making clear to Morales. If the national government imposes its agenda on them, they have the right to stand up and decide their own fate.

It is not that simple. If it were, all secession movements would be justified. That would include pro-slavery movements like the US Civil War. It is not actually a separatist movement either, but a way of trying to wrest power from Morales and his supporters and put it into the hands of his opponents. It is a pressure tactic.

He never has a source for anything. Anyway, if you google it you'll eventually find a few mentions on a online newspaper about aid. About USA and Santa Cruz, I didn't found anything, but I wouldn't doubt it myself.

Every now and then he puts one up. He's not as bad as Corneliu was (is?).

If Chavez gives aid to poor people in London and NY, why wouldn't he give to Bolivia? (even if he does that only to gather sympathy towards his government)If the US gives support like that worldwide and since a long time, why wouldn't they do it in Santa Cruz? The point is Santa Cruz must make what's best and more profitable for themselves, not for Bolivia or for the US.

I have no doubt that the Venezuelan government is sending foreign aid to Bolivia, and I would even guess that Morales is making the most of this in terms of shoring up support for himself. But that is a different thing than sending aid to Morales, and helping him against his Bolivian rivals. That would be meddling in the internal politics of Bolivia. The first type of help is a simple foreign aid arrangement between two nations that should theoretically continue even when someone else takes power in either nation. The second is a different ball of wax entirely. The same questions could be asked regarding US support for Morales' rivals.

Due to the fact that the different people who have made these claims have not provided any sources, or even clarification, I do not know what kind of support or influence these foreign powers exercise in Bolivia. Considering the effects colonialism and imperialism have had on Bolivia and the rest of Latin America, I am very suspicious of any foreign intervention in Latin American nations. This is why I want to know more, and why I asked for sources.

Hitler was nothing but an authoritarian racist whose purges achieved nothing in reality, he only expropriated the property of Jews. As the great man said 'Terror must have Virtue', I do however have some partiality to Strasserism and the left-wing elements of the NSDAP before Hitler killed them.

But I thought you liked militarism and corporatism a la Mussolini? Hitler had both, too; I'd think you'd have more in common with him.

Anyways back on topic, Morales should be absolutely unflinching in upholding the sovereign territorial integrity of Bolivia as a republic, any reactionary attempt to cynically divide the nation must be crushed. Morales should send in a the troops and kill the ringleaders of this revolt.

Quite honestly, I don't care about the sovereignty of any state. In fact, I think that anything that delegitimizes the sovereignty of any territorial monopoly on jurisdiction is morally good, seeing as how the state has always and still relies entirely upon misinformation and fear for its existence. If Morales tries to kill anyone on the behalf of the angry mystical spirit of the "will of the people", I think they should return the favor.

Whenever I think of Bolivia, I think of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJsOhg7tBjU

But then again, I'm a goofball. :)

He's a democratically elected leader doing what he was elected for through democartic means. The adversaries of democracy here are his opponents. Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.



hitler was elected too, it doesn't mean they had a commitment to democracy. The same applies in Bolivia.

hitler was elected too, it doesn't mean they had a commitment to democracy. The same applies in Bolivia.

I'm no fan of Morales, but comparing him to Hitler is a bit ridiculous.

Hitler was nothing but an authoritarian racist whose purges achieved nothing in reality, he only expropriated the property of Jews. As the great man said 'Terror must have Virtue', I do however have some partiality to Strasserism and the left-wing elements of the NSDAP before Hitler killed them.

Anyways back on topic, Morales should be absolutely unflinching in upholding the sovereign territorial integrity of Bolivia as a republic, any reactionary attempt to cynically divide the nation must be crushed. Morales should send in a the troops and kill the ringleaders of this revolt.

Your use of Communist buzz-words is rather irritating and pointless, can you talke like a normal person?