NationStates Jolt Archive

I've been through public schools(Thank goodness for viruses) for quite some time and I think that public schools are a disgrace to the US. Thoughts?

My public schools were great. Underfunded, to be sure, but the teachers were generally very good. Three of the best teachers I've ever had were in my high school. I learned more about writing a research paper from my AP American History teacher than from four years of university training.

I also had the world's most awesome gifted education councilor ever. His name is Joel Anderson and he wins at life.

Public schools are just as good as private schools, both in Ireland and in Germany. As for the rest of the world, I honestly wouldn't know.

They are fine, but perenially underfunded in Australia.

I actually had better teachers in Community College than in High School, although there was one really cool teacher in High School named Coach Cole. He was awesome.

All the public schools I went to in Australia were atrocious.

It is good here. I don't even know if we have private schools... surely there must be at least one...

:sniper:I was lucky and went to a small public school in Scotland, but i know of other schools in council estates that are quite frankly horrific, you can't walk past without tripping over underage mothers pushing prams.

I suppose public schools are a useful lesson as the sort of small version of the real world.
To be honest i've never been to a private school, but i imagine they are better funded, and have expert teachers, and less fighting.
So yeah public schools are so so, not good not bad, personally i'd liket to see them link with private schools, which would help reduce the rich and poor divide in some societies.

I've been through public schools(Thank goodness for viruses) for quite some time and I think that public schools are a disgrace to the US. Thoughts?

To what are you comparing them? Have you had a private school education as well?

:sniper:I was lucky and went to a small public school in Scotland, but i know of other schools in council estates that are quite frankly horrific, you can't walk past without tripping over underage mothers pushing prams.

I suppose public schools are a useful lesson as the sort of small version of the real world.
To be honest i've never been to a private school, but i imagine they are better funded, and have expert teachers, and less fighting.
So yeah public schools are so so, not good not bad, personally i'd liket to see them link with private schools, which would help reduce the rich and poor divide in some societies.

Eh if you link them, the rich kids will still keep themselves away from the "commoners". I mean they'll most likely have their own section of school, it'd be the Rich section of school and the "Poor/Commoners" section of School.

To be honest i've never been to a private school, but i imagine they are better funded, and have expert teachers, and less fighting.
So yeah public schools are so so, not good not bad, personally i'd liket to see them link with private schools, which would help reduce the rich and poor divide in some societies.
Actually the average public school spends about 8000$ per student with a (I think it was) 67% graduation rate(for high schools) The average prive school spends less, yet has a 94% graduation rate. What does that say?

I would make an excellent Secretary of Education. :)

Actually the average public school spends about 8000$ per student with a (I think it was) 67% graduation rate(for high schools) The average prive school spends less, yet has a 94% graduation rate. What does that say?

That politicians are liars and cheaters who use the "think of the children" to tug at idiots heartstrings to get them to vote for a budget increase that is equal to flushing it down the toilet when the problem isn't a lack of funding, it's the administration of the system and how the school is set up?

So what else is new?

I attended public schools that were pretty good. THe curriculum and teachers were generally good, although the building was a cardboard box.

At least in the U.S., public schools vary widely depending on where you live.

I've been through public schools(Thank goodness for viruses) for quite some time and I think that public schools are a disgrace to the US. Thoughts?

Why do you think they're a disgrace? The schools I went to were excellent. Of course, that was some time ago but I don't think they've declined radically. Americans seem to think that the public schools can work miracles on very little money, and then get upset when they can't. Of course, nowadays a lot of the focus in public schools is on getting high marks on the standardized tests that the government requires in order to receive funding. That's a disgrace. Wouldn't it be nice if kids were taught and learned for the sake of learning, with no other agenda?

I've been through public schools(Thank goodness for viruses) for quite some time and I think that public schools are a disgrace to the US. Thoughts?

Depends on where you live.

I've been through public schools(Thank goodness for viruses) for quite some time and I think that public schools are a disgrace to the US. Thoughts?


I had more resources, choices, and opportunities in my public school system than people I knew in college who’d gone to private schools. One example: we wasted a lot of time in freshman year bio labs (courses for bio majors, mind you) teaching people how to use lab equipment that I’d been using for four years in high school.

My children spent a year in the private school system (their father went there, and I agreed to give it a try), but frankly, it was a terrible waste of money for no benefit, so yanked ‘em, put them in the public school and have never looked back. We live in a community with strong public schools, and my kids are doing very well there. They’re included in gifted/talented instruction that supports what they’re doing in the classroom, they get high quality individualized instruction, they have access to excellent music, art, and phys ed programs, and wonderful caring teachers who do a great job of communicating what is going on in school, and welcome conversations with parents. I couldn’t be more pleased.

But I live in a community that does a good job of supporting children. My take on the broader problem we have with public schools in the US is the broken communities that many of those "under performing" schools are located in. You can work with kids all day long, but if they are going home to communities where they see no hope for their future, and no means of connecting what they’re doing in school to what they could be doing with their lives, you’re going to have problems with kids motivating themselves to do well.

Just for the record: I went to nothing but public schools in NY, was inducted into Phi Beta Kappa (no, it's not a sorority, look it up ;)), possess a Masters degree in secondary education and like my two retired public school teacher parents, am currently teaching in the public school system.

A good deal of the problem is not that there are not good teachers (though there are some that are atrocious) and not that they are underfunded (which is generally true). A good deal of the problem has to do with students who do not wish to be students, and would rather walk the halls causing problems. Another problem is that because it is funded on tax-money and no one pays directly for it, many see it as "free" and don't respect it at all. A third problem is that when there is no support at home, there is little a teacher can do to help the student in front of them. I have had a student who was profoundly learning disabled, but their parents refused to allow him to be tested for special education classes, would not allow him to be put into support classes, and did not send him to the tutoring sessions the school set up for kids.

Whose fault is that?

I have another student who refuses to do anything, puts his head down and sleeps for 40 minutes. I've spoken with the parents and his counselor together -- the parent tells us he sleeps something like twelve hours a day, to which the counselor said, "That could be depression, that's not normal." The student said he just didn't feel like doing anything, and counseling was offered. When the situation worsened, the parents were told that their son NEEDED to get a physical to rule out an illness, deficiency, or imbalance.

Do you think he was taken to the doctor?

There are sadly students who are afflicted with various learning disorders and illnesses that are going undiagnosed because the parents either are too scared to have it confirmed or don't care. (For what it's worth, in the two instances I cited, I think it's the former rather than the latter.) There are plenty of others who treat school like an inconvenience because their kid could be working or taking care of younger siblings instead, or like the school is a babysitter. (What he does in school is YOUR problem.)

I have had parents sit there on open school night and tell me, "I don't know what to do with him -- he refuses to do homework, he just stays on the computer playing games all night." They look at me like I have two heads when I say, "If the computer's in his room, move it out to the main part of the house so you can monitor him and it's not so easy for him to do that. If that doesn't work, take it away completely." I mean, really. What's so tough about that? If his toys prevent him from getting educated, take them away.

The worst part of it is that the school system has become so wishy-washy we're really doing students a disservice. They know that some teachers will be pressured to pass them on the basis of 1/3 of a term's work when they've cut the other two. They've been taught that it's ok to miss deadlines because they're just kids. They believe that if they hand in all the homework on the last day of the term, as a teacher you are obligated to accept it all... and mostly because they've gotten away with it before.

Are there decent, hardworking kids who keep up with their deadlines, do exemplary work, and want to learn? Of course there are, and I treasure them. Are there kids who will come for extra help, ask for extra credit, do everything they possibly can to get their C? Absolutely, and I will bend over backwards to get them whatever help they ask for and give them whatever aid they need. But there are many who have decided that they don't need English because they will be a scientist, or they don't need math because they're going to be a physical therapist, or that they don't have to do anything in their coursework because they are going to be the next Pele, Navratilova, Jordan, Montana, or Clemens. Then when it comes down to the report card coming out, the begging, pleading and crying starts, and the pressure from the administration to pass these poor misguiding children starts as well. After all, just because they handed in five out of twenty homeworks, cut the days you gave tests, and handed in a paragraph instead of the ~250 word, five paragraph essay you assigned, you would be heartless to deny them the chance to get into college!

What does that teach them? And what does it teach those who work hard for their grades, the kids who God bless them struggle and strain just for their C and see someone who sat on their ass for four months get the same grade?

Yes, I know, ranting. In a sense the OP is right -- private schools DO have a higher graduation rate. That's because the kids who are troubled and disruptive, and the kids who do nothing and are perennial space-wasters are put on probation and then kicked out while in the public system they get to stay. And there's something about watching several thousand dollars of one's personal income go down the drain that seems to inspire people to encourage their kids to apply their buttocks to the seat of a chair and study whereas when it is "free," there is no motivation to do so.

Sadly, all the ills of the public school system are there because that's precisely what the public has fought for.

I live in a community that does a good job of supporting children. My take on the broader problem we have with public schools in the US is the broken communities that many of those "under performing" schools are located in. You can work with kids all day long, but if they are going home to communities where they see no hope for their future, and no means of connecting what they’re doing in school to what they could be doing with their lives, you’re going to have problems with kids motivating themselves to do well.

Well said.

A good deal of the problem is not that there are not good teachers (though there are some that are atrocious) and not that they are underfunded (which is generally true). A good deal of the problem has to do with students who do not wish to be students, and would rather walk the halls causing problems.

What does that teach them? And what does it teach those who work hard for their grades, the kids who God bless them struggle and strain just for their C and see someone who sat on their ass for four months get the same grade?


Sadly, all the ills of the public school system are there because that's precisely what the public wants.

I'm curious do you think they should increase the age children are allowed to go to school, as in only children over 5 or 6 are allowed to start education, The extra few years when young might allow the parent to get a better system of teaching their child and would cost less for the parent and schools.
As if you have a poor education when you're young you might be put off in later years and dissmiss school on what you've experienced.
Perhaps they could reduce the number of subjects the teachers teach to young teenagers i remember i had 6 subjects per day 6! i'm not a machine and as a result often ended up lost, or forgot i had homework because my head was floating away in happyland from the nightmare of remembering all the things i needed to do and that's before adding in that i actually wanted a social life.
I think if parents were encouraged to actually teach their children when at home they would have better grades later.

I think many parents are pissed off with schools because they feel they need to blame someone other than themselves. The fact that they might not have the spare time to; care for their kids, do full time work, and that's before factoring reltionship issues with their partner or psychological issues.

I remembering having some really poor teachers in public education and some who were really good, trouble was, the good ones had to make up for the poor teachers, again relationship issues might account for poor performance or poor motivation to promote themselves, or they might have rubbish pupils. I'm just guessing here but just a few ideas i have, i could have mixed in a bit of metaphysics as well but i didn't want my head to spin too fast. or fall off as i'd know how sad so many of you would be if that happened;).

[x] Atma's public schooling was perfectly fine.

-Snip-

Good post. Some of the problems you mentioned are present in Britain to a certain extent, but schools aren't so lenient here in general and don't pander to the whims of over-proud parents.

Then again, I went to an excellent public school, selective and in one of the top areas in the country for education (Bucks). I genuinely think grammar schools are a good idea, but there are problems in the secondary system that need to be resolved such as underfunding and lack of interest in pupil for subjects that may not be relevant enough for their needs.

I'm curious do you think they should increase the age children are allowed to go to school, as in only children over 5 or 6 are allowed to start education, The extra few years when young might allow the parent to get a better system of teaching their child and would cost less for the parent and schools.

I actually think students are getting into the system at the proper ages: yes, even when you have kids as young as three in nursery school. What I DO think is that honestly, it's insane to expect kids to have a full day in school before the age of five with homework that's more complex than colors, seasons, inside-outside-left-right-up-down-in front of-behind. My niece in kindergarten is failing, why? because she is four, and the teacher "doesn't like the way she writes -- her letters are not even enough." She is four. She does not have the manual dexterity for writing properly yet. Anyone who
actually learned about child development would understand that at four, it would not be unheard of not to physically be able to hold the pencil in such a way as to make neat, regular letters. Some of her classmates, who are a whole year older, don't have it either -- yet her teacher is talking about putting her into special education? Silly.

My sister-in-law calls me to ask me about the homework my niece brings home -- she's not a stupid person, believe me, but some of the homework that's being brought home is pretty confusing for an adult, let alone a kid, to sort out.


As if you have a poor education when you're young you might be put off in later years and dissmiss school on what you've experienced. I certainly think this may be the case when students are asked to do things which study has shown are not age-appropriate. (YMMV: there are obviously some children who will be more advanced.)

Perhaps they could reduce the number of subjects the teachers teach to young teenagers i remember i had 6 subjects per day 6! i'm not a machine and as a result often ended up lost, or forgot i had homework because my head was floating away in happyland from the nightmare of remembering all the things i needed to do and that's before adding in that i actually wanted a social life.
Ah well, see, this is what organization is about, Mad. From the time I was seven years old and in school, I had a tiny little assignment book in which I copied down all of the homeworks and on which day they would be due. If you write it down, you never have to worry about forgetting it.

I think this might have more to do with your wish for a social life than an inability to remember things. For what it's worth, the amount of homework some schools require is absurd. For instance, with my previous principal the rule was "30 minutes of homework every day in every subject." well, think about it. 30 minutes x English, Mathematics, Social Studies, Science, Language = 2.5 hours. This doesn't factor in homework that might be assigned in music class, art class, shop class or whether or not someone has electives. Asking a student to sit in school for six hours and then spend at least three hours more each night on homework seems to me a little excessive too. I would sooner give reading assignments (with quizzes the next day to check comprehension and that they were done) with a once a week project than thirty minutes of questions to do.

That said: you will find that your job's obligations always come before your social obligations -- that is, if you prefer keeping your job.

I think if parents were encouraged to actually teach their children when at home they would have better grades later. That presupposes that they are able. I do know there are households where parents have two or three jobs and cannot get the time to do so -- and while I get the feeling you had the advantage, as I did, of literate parents, some aren't. I literally know someone who was taught to read by his granddaughter -- not that he was unintelligent, or did not work hard -- he had a learning disability. Oddly enough, the way his granddaughter helped him read to HER helped him become a better reader. Go figure.

I think many parents are pissed off with schools because they feel they need to blame someone other than themselves. The fact that they might not have the spare time to; care for their kids, do full time work, and that's before factoring reltionship issues with their partner or psychological issues. In some cases, yes, that's true.

I remembering having some really poor teachers in public education and some who were really good, trouble was, the good ones had to make up for the poor teachers, again relationship issues might account for poor performance or poor motivation to promote themselves, or they might have rubbish pupils. I'm just guessing here but just a few ideas i have, i could have mixed in a bit of metaphysics as well but i didn't want my head to spin too fast. or fall off as i'd know how sad so many of you would be if that happened;).

I don't think we want your head to spin too fast or fall off -- it's got too much introspection and analysis going on in there to lose it! :D

"The problem" with public schools is quite simple - it is <fill in problem specific to your jurisdiction>. Every jurisdiction is different - public schools in the US are county run, trying to follow odd regulations state politicians think can win them votes by showing that they are 'thinking of the children', and further regulations by federal regulators who want to push some ideological one-size-fits-all program on everyone. There are general trends of problems, but each school is unique.

The public school I attended was utter crap because of the county administration having some egalitarian notion that every student was exactly the same and it would be insulting to even suggest that some are smarter and learn faster than others. Those that understood that there were different capabilities had the theory that the smart kids would help the dumb kids learn faster. The dumb ones would benefit by getting tutored by the smart kids and it would instill a better sense of community and commitment to help the less fortunate in the smart students. Obviously this was complete garbage that helped no one.

Fortunately, there were some good teachers (along with the bad), but school was a waste of time. The only students that benefited were the below average but not truly stupid - the classes ended up going at their speed.

There were three types of parents in the area - some who valued education and encouraged their kids at home (usually wealthier and better educated), those that said they valued education but expected it to be 100% the responsibility of the school (so they had no responsibility for their children), and those that saw education as a waste because you can learn all you need to know from working on the farm or in the shop. Unfortunately the first group was vastly outnumbered by the other two, and elections for the school board tried to paint anyone who wanted to change the system as just being an elitist.

One frustrated english teacher in high school just broke down and asked just how many students actually read something other than what was assigned - only 2 (including myself) out of 35 actually read books on our own. Half of them had NEVER read a book that wasnt assigned.

If I had to pick one overriding factor in why public schools are crap - parents.
Not a lack of funding (there is no significant link between funding and performance), not because primary school teachers lack PhDs, not because some politician hasn't implemented their 'big plan', it comes down to parents. If a child is raised to value education and their learning is supported at home (parents reading to their small children, trying to teach them something at home, etc) then the child will do well at home. If a child is never even taught the alphabet because 'thats the school's responsibility' (I have actually heard that), it is a good indicator that they wont do well in school.

Throwing more money at an inefficient bureaucracy (where, like any other bureaucracy, more money and less accountability is the goal of every bureaucrat), blaming the teachers (where there are bad teachers, fire them. but dont fire a primary school teacher just because they dont have a masters), demanding national testing (focuses teaching on passing the test and not actual education, and will end up lowering standards anyway), or any of the other ineffectual distractions from facing the stark truth that wealthier and more educated families will produce more educated children (just from the tendency to support their education at home), will not improve education.

And why (just why exactly) did I get onto making such a long sentence (with excessive parenthesis)? Anyway...

My preferred solution would be to offer tax credits for education (equal to the per pupil spending of local school boards). If students choose to attend the public school, then nothing changes. If students choose to spend that money on a private school, that student is much better off. If you believe that public school is so great, then why do you think everyone will leave in a mass exodus? Why do people accept that competition works in everything except primary and secondary education? We dont force people to only go to the local public university, why do we force them to go to the local public school? (The answer 'because you're paying for college' is spurious, you're paying for primary and secondary schools as well - indirectly through taxation, but you are still paying for it).

Even just being able to choose which public school (and of course allowing individual schools to operate independently - not just forcing all the schools to all be the same, that defeats the purpose) would be a massive step forward.

I actually think students are getting into the system at the proper ages: yes, even when you have kids as young as three in nursery school. What I DO think is that honestly, it's insane to expect kids to have a full day in school before the age of five with homework that's more complex than colors, seasons, inside-outside-left-right-up-down-in front of-behind. My niece in kindergarten is failing, why? because she is four, and the teacher "doesn't like the way she writes -- her letters are not even enough." She is four. She does not have the manual dexterity for writing properly yet. Anyone who
actually learned about child development would understand that at four, it would not be unheard of not to physically be able to hold the pencil in such a way as to make neat, regular letters. Some of her classmates, who are a whole year older, don't have it either -- yet her teacher is talking about putting her into special education? Silly.

My sister-in-law calls me to ask me about the homework my niece brings home -- she's not a stupid person, believe me, but some of the homework that's being brought home is pretty confusing for an adult, let alone a kid, to sort out.
I certainly think this may be the case when students are asked to do things which study has shown are not age-appropriate. (YMMV: there are obviously some children who will be more advanced.)
Ah well, see, this is what organization is about, Mad. From the time I was seven years old and in school, I had a tiny little assignment book in which I copied down all of the homeworks and on which day they would be due. If you write it down, you never have to worry about forgetting it.

I think this might have more to do with your wish for a social life than an inability to remember things. For what it's worth, the amount of homework some schools require is absurd. For instance, with my previous principal the rule was "30 minutes of homework every day in every subject." well, think about it. 30 minutes x English, Mathematics, Social Studies, Science, Language = 2.5 hours. This doesn't factor in homework that might be assigned in music class, art class, shop class or whether or not someone has electives. Asking a student to sit in school for six hours and then spend at least three hours more each night on homework seems to me a little excessive too. I would sooner give reading assignments (with quizzes the next day to check comprehension and that they were done) with a once a week project than thirty minutes of questions to do.
That said: you will find that your job's obligations always come before your social obligations -- that is, if you prefer keeping your job.
That presupposes that they are able. I do know there are households where parents have two or three jobs and cannot get the time to do so -- and while I get the feeling you had the advantage, as I did, of literate parents, some aren't. I literally know someone who was taught to read by his granddaughter -- not that he was unintelligent, or did not work hard -- he had a learning disability. Oddly enough, the way his granddaughter helped him read to HER helped him become a better reader. Go figure.

In some cases, yes, that's true.
I don't think we want your head to spin too fast or fall off -- it's got too much introspection and analysis going on in there to lose it! :D

Well i can only sympathise for your niece, as i remember when i was in school right up to about 12 years old or so i was about 2 years behind everyone else in my class, because i had hearing difficulties, fortunately my parents (both being social workers at the time, knew what to do), strangely enough although i couldn't communicate properly then when i was 7 i had the ability to think of 3d shapes of a 14 year old, because i had to look at things more to understand them without instruction. I guess that's helped my later education, but don't ask me to complete a rubix cube argg, i end up ripping off the colours and pasting them in the right places (it's the thought that counts) it also helps for philosophy as anyone can argue for something in it somewhere.

Also i'm not sure about US but do you think the government should have more say of what happens in schools? I'm sure it helps some politicians look good but i'm not sure if it really helps the teachers who have to hammer through all the extra paperwork the government guidlines give them. If this is the case should the governments stay out of other areas like health and policing?

Oh the book thing well i know it's useful, but i have to remember where i put the book to remember where i put what i'm supposed to do, so i just used the back of my hand, i can't lose it without noticing and it's always there.

The part you said about the granddaughter teaching her elder, i heard that if you teach other people the subject you're trying to learn you remember about 90% of it, reading was 20% and talking was about 15%, and listening 5%. But don't ask me if those statistics are correct it's what i was taught at school ironically the teachers didn't get us to teach what we knew that much.

I figure that encouraging older adults who didn't have the same advantages of a good education, i know it would cost even more but it might give older people who missed out, or even struggling parents a chance to be able to teach their siblings, maybe evening classes. Because i've noticed that ageism is a major problem in society, from applying for jobs to politics, which creates a kind of divide between young and old neither understanding why it should put up with the other, yet it's rarely discussed in politics.(Reference from sociology Giddens 5th edition pgs 160-201).

I remember one harrowing, in fact several situations in German class; each member of the class had to stand up and translate the German word the teacher said (who was a bitch) into English, well when it came to me the extra pressure didn't help and that my English wasn't brilliant then either, i just eneded up giving a good impression of an embarresed tomato.

I found out from pscyhology class it's far easier to recall information when in the same phyiscal and emotional state as to when you first learned it, e.g. for driving a car it's difficult to explain in words what you do but when you get in it's so much easier to explain.
So for police investigations asking leading questions or even interrupting the person could disrupt the persons line of thought ( i have nothing against police forces, i think they are all wonderfull happy fluffy people).

well i suppose i can manage to keep my head on for a bit longer, oh and i'd love to see some celebrities get a real job i can't understand why so many people are gulled into liking them, it's not as if Tom Cruise or Brittney Spears ever swept your driveway or helped you carry shopping bags, they just look pretty for some photographers with those plastic fake smiles to match their fake personalities (i do like some celebrities, but not many maybe it's the marxist in me).
Mind you some are useful for making interesting movies.
happy new christmass, or hannukah or ramadam or is it ramadan? anyway happy something.

They're surprisingly good for the pathetic amount of funding they receive.

They are pretty bad in my area, less than 10% of my class made it to senior year in high school (dropouts) and then less than 2% actually graduated. There is a lot of bureaucracy here, I am pretty sure most of the teachers are doing as well as they can with what they are given, which is run down buildings, no money, no supplies, lots of discipline issues and stress that if the stupid kids don't pass the ever growing "standards" then they will be out on their butt, the stupid kids can't pass though, so they make "work arounds" to make it look good. Kids can't get less than a C here now, if you fail you get a C, if you fail the P.A.S.S test you are labeled "special needs" and you get to take it again. Like I said, I don't blame the teachers, and I sure as hell wouldn't want to try to work in the district more than I already do. (I sub sometimes, not often anymore)

Depends on the area. My public school was fantastic.

A good deal of the problem

*shuts up because Kat already said it all*

Ours are ok. There were good once then two republican governors drove them into the ground. You have good ones and bad ones. My kid at the moment is in one that is ok.

She had a brilliant kindergarten teacher who should be paid more but does the job out of love. Her first grade teacher should retire about 5 years ago.

Hit and miss these days.

Vouchers would not solve this.

Public schools need to do better by not boring people to death. They should be more interactive, involved, and specialized.

Public schools need to do better by not boring people to death. They should be more interactive, involved, and specialized.

YES!

I've been to several sucky shit-hole public schools and one very nice public school. The ones in the ghetto and small towns were always crappy and gave no benefit to kids who wanted to actually learn stuff.

Edit: I forgot to add that the nice public school was like going off to college. It was awesome and I actually had to try there to get good grades.

I've been through public schools(Thank goodness for viruses) for quite some time and I think that public schools are a disgrace to the US. Thoughts?They are a disgrace, primarily on account of their quality.

I've been through public schools(Thank goodness for viruses) for quite some time and I think that public schools are a disgrace to the US. Thoughts?

Other than Islamist fanatics, United States public schools are the biggest threat to the future of America.

My wife teaches in a public school so I've heard about the shortcomings from the inside. If there was one thing that could be changed to improve them, it would be to remove the dependence on statistics, meaning an elimination of standardized tests. Teachers spend too much time teaching the tests and too little time teaching the material.

I could go on about Principals that won't back up teacher decisions, parents that put social activities ahead of scholastics, and so on...

I went to selective school, and can honestly say it is superior to either every comprehensive school, or most private schools. That said, comprehensive school education is fairly poor; you do, after all, get what you pay for for the most part.

My school itself is very good. Most of my teachers were very good, and the rest were okay, not bad.

I've been through public schools(Thank goodness for viruses) for quite some time and I think that public schools are a disgrace to the US. Thoughts?

I would say that "Public schools are good" or "Public schools are bad" for x reason doesn't really answer the question, because by and large even in poor public schools, you get out to a very great extent what you put in. A student that is driven to learn has immense opportunities in even a standard public high school: even poor schools usually offer some AP programs, and there's a bevy of math and science courses available for whomever wants to take them (my high school had crap course selection, and I still managed to take what is probably a record 22 course credits in math and science, 10 class-semesters of science and 12 of math).

But of course, the reverse is also true, and for every student who takes every hard class offered, there's 100 others who take only the minimum and do only enough to get the B rather than understand the material. Since I'm almost to the decade mark since high school I'll restrict my analysis to the time I was in and leave any anologies to the reader, but most of the kids in school when I was in treated school as a daily imposition, or as a necessary stepping stone to getting into the university where they could get married, get laid, and get a job when they come out. Learning for the sake of learning wasn't really a criterion for students at my school (to be fair, I was rarely moved to learn for the sake of wisdom myself); indeed, they'd probably have found even the concept ridiculous, because learning is something good only insofar as it gains you that which you need in life: jobs, money, and possibly a Mrs. The thing is, though, that our school, and I suspect any school, works best when students learn for the sake of having knowledge and for the sake of the good things that come out of it. But as this is an alien concept in our society, it's no surprise that we also underutilize our schools.

At least in the U.S., public schools vary widely depending on where you live.


QFT!


My sister moved to the city in this state that was supposed to be the best schools in the state, because of her kids. She moved out of state because her husband got transfered and they wanted to put my nephew in special education! :(

It really depends on the area, some public schools are basically feeders for Elite Universities, while others are pretty much your stereotypical inner city ghetto school, and then there are those that are just average.

I've been through public schools(Thank goodness for viruses) for quite some time and I think that public schools are a disgrace to the US. Thoughts?

I think your fear-mongering is a disgrace to the US.

I went to a public school, it was excellent, despite being underfunded. The private school in my town, on the other hand, was a total drug den and so small that it was impossible to escape the drug culture.

Sure, at my high school, if you really wanted to get into drugs, you could, but it was big enough so that if you didn't want any part of that, you could go all four years and except for rumors you heard be almost totally oblivious to the existence of such activities. It had an excellent music program, and a great history department. The drama program as well was very high quality. It was a fine school.

Well, where? US=big country. Now in suburbia the schools are usually decent. In the city it varies more. If you look at schoos in Fairfax Co.,VA and then at schools in Bronx Co., NY you'll see big differences.

Plus in all schools the NCLB ain't helping.

My schools sucks... badly.

The high school? All the money that goes to the high school is divided unfairly. Most of the money goes to the buses, the rest goes to the freaking athletic teams which are TERRIBLE, possibly the worst teams in the state of North Carolina. Hardly any of it actually goes to supplies (which we really, really need) or to the band program, which is actually the best thing going for my county. The administration preaches homophobia and recently instated random drug testing, and has this really bad habit of calling hordes of students down to the cafeteria when they get too many office referrals to handle. And why are so many kids getting referrals? Mostly because we have to be at school by 8:20, stuck there until 3:10, and all any of us learn are EOCs, EoCs, EOCs, and the SATs. Doesn't help that I live in a very rural area where the only things to do are to sleep around, get drunk, shoot deer, go fishin', bitch each other out on MySpace, and get high. Seriously, everything is at least 30 mins. or more away. Oh, and you're taught that if you don't get straight A's and join every sports team/club/band in the school, you won't get into college, and that the USA is far more free and democratic and we bash gays and send our boys to fight terrorists to protect the American Way while those evil godless Yurpeens are theocratic homo-lovin' theocracies who refuse to fight terrorists to protect their freedoms, and that sex is evil and there are no such things as condoms and if there were they would be full of holes anyway.

The middle school I went to? Grossly underfunded, and the worst school I have ever been to. It is seriously the worst school in the county, it's only been open for 6 years now and it's already overcrowded. They use the students as EOG guinea pigs and only teach to the EOGs (which are like EOCs, only for midle school). The teachers don't control the students at all, so when they come to the high school they just screw everything up, drive the teachers crazy, and become the reason why all freshmen must be arrogant retards who never shut the hell up, even the nice ones from the other middle school. Ironically, the middle school I went to had the best test scores butthe worst students, while the other middle school had lower test scores but had the best students.

If my experiences with these schools are anything, it's that Southeastern schools are the worst in the US, and are a scourge upon the Earth.

If you look at schoos in Fairfax Co.,VA and then at schools in Bronx Co., NY you'll see big differences.[/QUOTE]

What you are really asking is equivalent to polling to determine if an apple taste better than a pear. Anyone charged with this analysis must reconcile the following:

1. Socioeconomic comparison of private school students versus public school students.
2. Requirements related to provision for mentally challenged, public school versus private.
3. Facilitation of total population versus selected students.

I am sure there are many other things that "must be held constant" in order for comparison to occur. I currently serve on a public school board. My lifelong friend has two children in private schools in Scottsdale, Arizona. Comparing their "performance, facilities, and teachers" versus a child in public schools in Millwood, Oklahoma is comparable to suggesting that everyone should drive a Mercedes due to the fact that they are safer, more efficient, and superior in quality to a Kia.

Financial data is also biased based on the fact that private schools can expand at a planned rate, where as public schools must facilitate a specific region. Public schools are also required to accommodate their customers (students) regardless of stagnant/reducing funding.

Granted, I would agree that private school education is in many situations preferable to public schools, but, I am not for sure that the distinction would remain consistent if private schools were required to accept all students.

Public schools need to do better by not boring people to death. They should be more interactive, involved, and specialized.

Explain how.

Actually the average public school spends about 8000$ per student with a (I think it was) 67% graduation rate(for high schools) The average prive school spends less, yet has a 94% graduation rate. What does that say?
Absolutely nothing, because public schools teach a different group of students than private schools. If you really wanted to compare the two systems accurately, you would need to get a representative sample of students from across the US, randomly divide them in two groups and educate one group in public schools and the other in private schools.

Explain how.

LSD

Katganistan, what reforms would you make to the USA's education system if you had unlimted power to change it however you wished?

Well, Kat and Sarkhaan have already jumped in so I guess I better make it the full set of teachers on NSG. :D

Kat's pretty much identified and said everything that needs to be said, but I would add one thing though: If public schools are as horrible as many of you guys are claiming how is it, given that some 87% (IIRC), of US citizens are educated in them, that the US still has, by far, the world's largest economy and is still the largest innovator?

Hmm... Maybe the schools are doing their jobs after all?

Kat's pretty much identified and said everything that needs to be said, but I would add one thing though: If public schools are as horrible as many of you guys are claiming how is it, given that some 87% (IIRC), of US citizens are educated in them, that the US still has, by far, the world's largest economy and is still the largest innovator?The US isn't the world's largest innovator, actually. Besides, you don't need a genius for every job, and you certainly don't need to be well-educated to buy anything.

What you do need an education for is being a good citizen, in your community, country, and world. And US actions abroad speak for themselves on that matter.

I hate how public schools (or at least the ones around here) push kids into the cookie-cutter mold of how they should learn, even if they don't fit.

For example, I'm ADD. I got bored in school easily. I'm the type that you can give me the book, I'll read it, and I'll nearly ace the test a few days later. What we covered in class in a semester, I could have learned in a month. The worst part was what they considered to be a solution for smart kids. "If you're bored in your classes, that must mean that you don't have enough to do. We'll give you more work." No, you dummies! It means that the work isn't challenging! I took a physics class my junior year. I avoided most of the work and ended my first semester with a D. But I only missed one question on the semester final. Did that sort of thing a lot in my junior and senior years. Graduated by the skin of my teeth. One of my teachers recognized my problem and suggested that I should have dropped out at 16, started college, and possibly gotten my BA/BS by age 20. Unfortunately, he suggested this during my last semester of school. Didn't help much.

I went to college (which I just finished). The busywork went down, the emphasis on tests went up, and the work was more challenging. My interest and grades went up.

Well, Kat and Sarkhaan have already jumped in so I guess I better make it the full set of teachers on NSG. :D

Kat's pretty much identified and said everything that needs to be said, but I would add one thing though: If public schools are as horrible as many of you guys are claiming how is it, given that some 87% (IIRC), of US citizens are educated in them, that the US still has, by far, the world's largest economy and is still the largest innovator?

Hmm... Maybe the schools are doing their jobs after all?

It should also be stated that, more than just about anything else in this country, education is left to the individual states. Saying "US education system" is similar (note: not identical) to saying "European education system". They're not quite one entity. New England and the Northeast compete with the top systems in the world. States like Alabama, however, lag considerably.

S'alright.

The US isn't the world's largest innovator, actually.Proof now?

What you do need an education for is being a good citizen, in your community, country, and world. And US actions abroad speak for themselves on that matter.
Uh... right. I'm hungering for you to tell me how the foreign policy of the US is a reflection of the education system in Wyoming.

This thread confused me, until I realised Americans define Public school differently to the Brits (For the record, a British Public school = American private one lol)

Anyway, my primary school was state funded, and was the best in the area. My Secondary was a Catholic school, so part state part church funded (and did very well at churning out atheists at the other end :P), so can't really comment on that.

I go to a private Christian school of about 75 pre-k through 12th that isn't as well funded as public schools. It only costs about $1200 probably less i'm not sure and that is including books. As far as money goes we had to have a candy bar fund raiser to "pay" the teachers. They get paid $50 dollars a week if they get payed at all or they teach to pay for their children to go to. I think it shows they have teachers who are devoted to what they do. Some kids do cleaning so they can pay for their tuition. Who are actually kids who would rather go there than to the public school they used to go to. So as far as money they are almost a non-profit organization that usually doesn't go into the red.

I've been through public schools(Thank goodness for viruses) for quite some time and I think that public schools are a disgrace to the US. Thoughts?
That happens with conservatives in power disgracefully underfund them for years as a policy and instead put the money into rich private schools.

Katganistan, what reforms would you make to the USA's education system if you had unlimted power to change it however you wished?

Seriously? If I had to take a few off the top of my head, the first would be to stop all this idiotic standardized testing that does nothing for the kids. So much time is WASTED teaching to a test that measures nothing but the ability to take the one darned test.

The second thing I would do is jettison this happy-feelgood bullshit that all kids can learn the same things. It's simply not true, and it's hurting kids across the spectrum. Some students are brilliant and need to be in accelerated classes. Some kids are average and need to be in middle of the road classes. Some kids are slow, and should be in classes every bit as tailored for them as the brilliant kids should be in classes tailored for them.

The education system should just come out and admit that not every kid is going to college. Not all of them want to go, and not all of them are capable. Get them into a program they can shine in. If a kid is brilliant and interested in science, then get her into advanced science classes. If a kid can't learn history to save his life, but is gifted in music, then get him into a music program. What is the point of torturing kids in educational programs that are not at all suited to them? Let the schools group the kids according to ability, and in classes no larger than twenty kids, and teach them without all this nonsense about warehousing kids 34 to a room with kids of varied abilities in the hopes that the smart ones will help and tutor the slower ones: they don't, and it's not their job.

The last thing I would do is decentralize the system. The more bureaucracy, the more shit gets added into the system. Here's what I'd like to see in my dreamworld: "Here is your budget. Spend it on whatever materials, field trips, curricula you feel is appropriate to educate these kids."

I wish I could be more coherent about this right now, but it's past 1am and I'm pretty well done in by the cold medicine.

neither as good nor as bad as they could be, but a hell of a lot better then not having them.

some nonpublic schools are excellent, most are more likely then not hotbeds of right wing propiganda, usually masquarading as some sort of religeon.

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