NationStates Jolt Archive

France 24 has been keeping a page with regular special reports.


Since the collapse of dictator Siad Barre's government in 1991, a number of Islamist groups have sprung up all over Somalia and have banded together as the Union of Islamic Courts (UIC). This organisation rivals the interim government of Somalia, composed of former warlords and their factions. The present regime has been divided by internal quarrels and disagreements about the presence of external peacekeepers on Somali soil.

Considered a terror threat by Washington, the Islamists enjoy some support among Somali residents because they are successful in maintaining order. It is difficult to assess whether the Islamists constitute an actual terror threat. According to think-tank International Crisis Group, a vast majority of the Islamist groups in Somalia are ‘non-violent’ and opposed to ideological fundamentalism. However, diplomats believe extremists are operating in the country.

Fearing an expansion of Islamic fundamentalism in the horn of Africa, the Ethiopian army came to the rescue of the embattled Somali government last year, helping it oust an Islamist militia. In March, 2007, the African Union also sent some troops into the country to help restore peace and order.


(link (http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/special-reports/20070105-somalia))


Monday, December 10, 2007
Daily life in Mogadishu shrivels under incessant violence

Back-to-back bloody clan battles in Somalia -- now spanning 16 years and worsened by nearly a year of insurgency -- have wiped out basic services in Mogadishu, where the latest clashes Sunday claimed the life of a civilian and wounded three others.

The remaining Mogadishu residents, after most were driven out by the latest heavy fighting last month, eke out a living, making do with nearly nothing.

Despite efforts by the government to spruce up the city, painting buldings -- at least those that have survived years of shelling -- and cleaning round about, garbage heaps make up much of city features while water and electricity remain a luxury.

Still, the endless fighting between the Ethiopia-backed Somali forces and Islamist insurgents has hampered government plans to restore peace and return the seaside capital to its pre-war state.

Since the fall of central government in 1991, the city has been deprived of basic services such as water, electricity and public telephones.

Private electricity supplier Hirsi Omar has kept parts of the war-ruined Mogadishu lit, but many of his customers have fled the recurrent city battles without paying their bills.

Omar is among many businessmen who have set up power generators across the city and nearby villages, taking advantage of the inability of successive rulers to provide basic services.

[...] Residents also complain of high commodity prices compounded by the closure of the main Bakara market -- a hideout for Islamist rebels and from where they have made several attacks against government targets.

In addition, the near-daily Islamist-led insurgency that has lasted for almost one year since their movement was defeated by government and Ethiopian forces has worsened the misery of the city residents.

The fighting has killed hundreds of people this year and sparked a dire humanitarian crisis described by the United Nations as Africa's worst.

Nearly 200,000 people fled the war-wracked capital in the latest fighting in November, while at least 600,000 others have been displaced from Mogadishu since February.


(link (http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/special-reports/20070105-somalia/20071210-somalia-conflict-refugees-africa-islamist-town-troops-camps))

See also here (http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/news/world/20071209-MOGADISHU-LIFE-food-aid-somali-un-africa-strife).

Bad as the Islamic Courts Union was, they posed no threat to the United States, they were reasonably popular, and they did achieve a degree of stability the people have ached for for so long. Overthrowing them (via Ethiopia) has brought nothing but death, destruction, and chaos, three things Somalia and Somalis have had more than enough of.

Bad as the Islamic Courts Union was, Like placing their areas under Shira law.
they posed no threat to the United States, Except for the Al-Qaeda members advising them,
they were reasonably popular, Because people were so desperate.
and they did achieve a degree of stability the people have ached for for so long. North Korea is stable also. I'm sure it's a nice place.

Overthrowing them (via Ethiopia) has brought nothing but death, Yeah just ignore the fact that the Islamic Courts Union was making threats towards Ethiopia, and were closing in on the few remaining secured cities in the country. Oh and the US didn't order Ethiopia to do it, they did it on their own, we only joined in.

destruction, and chaos, three things Somalia and Somalis have had more than enough of. Violence and anarchy or Theocratic oppression... Neither is a good choice.

Getting shot by a random warlord or Insurgant or getting executed because you had your clothes wrong or your wife wasn't in a veil.

Lose\Lose.

TLA, the ICU were not saints. Far from it. Do you have proof they were tied to AQ, though?

Bad as the Islamic Courts Union was, they posed no threat to the United States, they were reasonably popular, and they did achieve a degree of stability the people have ached for for so long. Overthrowing them (via Ethiopia) has brought nothing but death, destruction, and chaos, three things Somalia and Somalis have had more than enough of.

Banning the World Cup is a popular idea?

Banning the World Cup is a popular idea?

If you were in an anarchic, faction-ridden city in a constant state of war, and starving, I doubt the World Cup would be high on your list of priorities.

If you were in an anarchic, faction-ridden city in a constant state of war, and starving, I doubt the World Cup would be high on your list of priorities.

You underestimate the power of soccer.

Click Stand;13289712']You underestimate the power of soccer.

Yes, Africans are soccer mad, but not that soccer mad.

Bad as the Islamic Courts Union was, they posed no threat to the United States, they were reasonably popular, and they did achieve a degree of stability the people have ached for for so long. Overthrowing them (via Ethiopia) has brought nothing but death, destruction, and chaos, three things Somalia and Somalis have had more than enough of.
There were also a number of moderate elements in them that could have, you know, been supported instead of using Ethiopia (a country that was engaged in literal trench warfare with Somalia and whom the Somali populace has strong feelings against) to invade. And America gave Ethiopia support, diplomatically and materialistically in the form of weapons. Honestly, it was such a stupid fucking thing to do for us, but because it was done fairly covertly and no Americans died, it doesn't get as much press as our last excursion into Somalia.
Like placing their areas under Shira law.
Except for the Al-Qaeda members advising them,
Because people were so desperate.
North Korea is stable also. I'm sure it's a nice place.

Yeah just ignore the fact that the Islamic Courts Union was making threats towards Ethiopia, and were closing in on the few remaining secured cities in the country. Oh and the US didn't order Ethiopia to do it, they did it on their own, we only joined in.

Violence and anarchy or Theocratic oppression... Neither is a good choice.

Getting shot by a random warlord or Insurgant or getting executed because you had your clothes wrong or your wife wasn't in a veil.

Lose\Lose.
Unfortunately, this simply isn't the case entirely. There were moderate elements in the ICU/ICC/whatever the hell the news is calling it this week. And it had lots of popular support. The TFG was hemorrhaging not just support but it's own workers and members were leaving to support to the ICC. It can't be emphasized enough how much popular support the ICC had compared to the TFG/warlords.
TLA, the ICU were not saints. Far from it. Do you have proof they were tied to AQ, though?

There were two Al Qaida linked members that were high ups within the ICC, iirc. Regardless, though, the US went about the situation so horridly wrong it's mind-boggling. Instead of supporting moderate elements within the popularly supported ICC that was actually bringing order and helping out the infrastructure, we tossed our support to what more or less amounts to Somalia's blood enemy (Ethiopia) and the TFG (an ineffective, warlord run "government"). It would have been better if we just stayed out of it. I understand American trepidation with Somalia after the last disaster...hell, they made a fucking movie out of it....but you really can't even argue that we royally botched the Somali situation.

Banning the World Cup is a popular idea?

which caused uproar in the other Islamic courts iirc the law was soon overturned

There were two Al Qaida linked members that were high ups within the ICC, iirc. Regardless, though, the US went about the situation so horridly wrong it's mind-boggling. Instead of supporting moderate elements within the popularly supported ICC that was actually bringing order and helping out the infrastructure, we tossed our support to what more or less amounts to Somalia's blood enemy (Ethiopia) and the TFG (an ineffective, warlord run "government").

I was going to put in some intelligent comment to add to this but you stole all the intelligence :(

North Korea is stable also. I'm sure it's a nice place.

and Somalia isn't stable. I'm sure it's a much nicer place.

If you're really interested in Somalia, www.pinr.com has been covering it for a while now (my political analysis prof. actually is the Somalia writer and had us follow it during the semester) and presents what its title implies, an analysis of the powers and interests involved so I consider it a fairly reliable source but *shrug* I'm just a random dude on the internet so I advise you compare the coverage to something else to confirm. :)

This just shows how cynical the United States government is. Their support of the Ethiopian invasion for the purpose of 'democracy' is really just a ploy to install a strongman to help them control the Horn of Africa and oil. I'd imagine that, thanks to the Ethiopian armed forces, Somalia's gains since the collapse of its central government (stronger pastoral economy than its neighbors, increases in physicians, immunizations, and life expectancy among other health statistics, telecommunications boom as evidenced by the fact that there was no place cheaper in Africa to make a cell phone call, increases in access to health and sanitation facilities, rise in consumer durables such as radios, phones, and TVs, all of which have been evidenced by economist Peter Leeson's citation of official international sources such as the WHO and World Bank) have been destroyed in the deceitful attempt to 'restore order.'

This just shows how cynical the United States government is. Their support of the Ethiopian invasion for the purpose of 'democracy' is really just a ploy to install a strongman to help them control the Horn of Africa and oil. I'd imagine that, thanks to the Ethiopian armed forces, Somalia's gains since the collapse of its central government (stronger pastoral economy than its neighbors, increases in physicians, immunizations, and life expectancy among other health statistics, telecommunications boom as evidenced by the fact that there was no place cheaper in Africa to make a cell phone call, increases in access to health and sanitation facilities, rise in consumer durables such as radios, phones, and TVs, all of which have been evidenced by economist Peter Leeson's citation of official international sources such as the WHO and World Bank) have been destroyed in the deceitful attempt to 'restore order.'

I honestly don't think America was actively trying to install a "strongman" regime in Somalia. I just think that there was some abysmally shitty analysis and knowledge of the situation going on by those in command of such things and a genuine, though unfounded, fear that because there were two officials of the ICU suspected of terrorist links that the entire system was a potential terrorist organization or some such nonsense. It was an almost criminally stupid thing, yes, but I don't really think it was as malicious as people might make it out to be.

I honestly don't think America was actively trying to install a "strongman" regime in Somalia. I just think that there was some abysmally shitty analysis and knowledge of the situation going on by those in command of such things and a genuine, though unfounded, fear that because there were two officials of the ICU suspected of terrorist links that the entire system was a potential terrorist organization or some such nonsense. It was an almost criminally stupid thing, yes, but I don't really think it was as malicious as people might make it out to be.Very good point. You're giving the U.S. too much credit. They're not that cleverly imperialistic. They just heard the words "Al Queda" and totally lost their shit.

Somalia is never going to be stable... I thought the Ethiopians could bring order. On the other hand I can't blame the Ethiopians for not being willing to lose a lot of men to save this mess of a country from destroying itself.. Only part of somalia woth living in is Puntland..

Maybee one should divide somalia after clan/ethnic lines :confused:

I'm just a random dude on the internet so I advise you compare the coverage to something else to confirm. :)
Thanks, random internet dude, I'm bookmarking it. :)

You know..



I would not be surprised if -a few decades down the road- some Somali dudes would use an Airliner to destroy a symbol of American power.

Somalia is never going to be stable... I thought the Ethiopians could bring order. On the other hand I can't blame the Ethiopians for not being willing to lose a lot of men to save this mess of a country from destroying itself.. Only part of somalia woth living in is Puntland..

Maybee one should divide somalia after clan/ethnic lines :confused:
This....simply isn't what's wrong with Somalia. You have a large majority of the population that just straight up wants stability and be able to continue business as usual and the ICC was providing this for them. Hell, like was mentioned, Somalia had a very advanced cellphone network that was created entirely by private interests prior to this whole situation. Ethiopia cannot be the one to bring peace. I don't think that can be emphasized enough, they were engaged in freaking trench warfare! And I mean relatively recently, not back at the turn of the century. There is no way in hell Ethiopia can directly assist and have the support of the Somali people, it just isn't feasible as the situation is right now.
You know..



I would not be surprised if -a few decades down the road- some Somali dudes would use an Airliner to destroy a symbol of American power.

Well, perhaps if we had encouraged the moderate elements of the ICC, supported building an infrastructure and bringing some stability, and helped them find their economic niche, it wouldn't be as much a worry for you.

Oh, and Nipeng, while pinr is probably one of my favorite news sources (it breaks it down the way it should....you get important, objective data with context provided, as well) it is fairly slow to update, unfortunately. :( I think there is a weekly article, sometimes two.

I honestly don't think America was actively trying to install a "strongman" regime in Somalia. I just think that there was some abysmally shitty analysis and knowledge of the situation going on by those in command of such things and a genuine, though unfounded, fear that because there were two officials of the ICU suspected of terrorist links that the entire system was a potential terrorist organization or some such nonsense. It was an almost criminally stupid thing, yes, but I don't really think it was as malicious as people might make it out to be.

The American political establishment has long desired to bring Somalia under its sphere of influence, since 1991. The Horn of Africa is strategically and economically important, and there is no reason why the neoconservatives would not realize this.

Regardless of the reasons, this war by proxy is horrific, needless and tragic.

Situation in Somalia? Still bad. Somaliland and Puntland are doing better than the south. Moghadishu is in a thight spot - as it's been for far too long.

It's a sad situation :(