NationStates Jolt Archive


A British take on Evangelicals

Rubiconic Crossings
13-12-2007, 21:22
http://www.religiousintelligence.co.uk/news/?NewsID=1009

This article was written by the Guardians religious affairs correspondent. The article is not about his loss of faith in God but rather the rabid nature of evangelicals.

While that is interesting it is actually the way the author neatly skewers the evangelicals and their rabid hatred that makes it worth the read.

Sketch: preparing for the Anglican summit
Friday, 21st September 2007. 12:31pm

By: Stephen Bates.

Ah! New Orleans – the Big Easy, birthplace of the Blues and Louis Armstrong, city of Mardi Gras and Voodoo, the least Protestant town in the US: what better place to witness the latest stage in the break-up of the worldwide Anglican Communion? No prizes to be awarded – can you hear me, Bishop of Carlisle? – for the first one to pronounce God’s judgement if a hurricane hovers into view.

This week’s meeting between Rowan Williams and the American bishops will be my swan-song as a religious affairs correspondent, after eight years covering the subject for The Guardian. I’d have been less keen to attend had the venue been Detroit, but where better to end it? It is time to move on for me professionally, and probably for Anglicans too and this marks a suitable place to stop. There is also no doubting, personally, that writing this story has been too corrosive of what faith I had left: indeed watching the way the gay row has played out in the Anglican Communion has cost me my belief in the essential benignity of too many Christians.For the good of my soul, I need to do something else.

I had no notion in 2000 that it would come to this: I had thought then that we were all pretty ecumenical these days. I was soon disabused of that. I had scarcely ever met a gay person, certainly not knowingly a gay Christian, and had not given homosexuality and the Church the most cursory thought, much less held an opinion on the matter. But watching and reporting the way gays were referred to, casually, smugly, hypocritically; the way men such as Jeffrey John (and indeed Rowan Williams when he was appointed archbishop) were treated and often lied about, offended my doubtless inadequate sense of justice and humanity.

Why would any gay person wish to be a Christian? These are people condemned for who they are, not what they do, despite all the sanctimonious bleating to the contrary, men and women despised for wanting the sort of intimacy that heterosexual people take for granted and that the Church is only too happy to bless. Instead, in 2007, the Church of England and other denominations jump up and down to secure exclusive rights to continue discriminating against a minority of people it does not like. What a spectacle the Church has made of itself! What hope of proselytising in a country which has accepted civil partnerships entirely without rancour or bigotry?

A lot of people have wished me God speed (I dare say some have wished me good speed too) not least of them Andrew Carey in this paper the other week, when he was generous enough to praise me for holding the Church hierarchy to account.

Unfortunately, I cannot entirely reciprocate the compliment because Andrew claimed I had ‘an attitude of barely-concealed loathing towards the vast majority of evangelicals’ Always supposing Andrew instinctively knows that the vast majority of evangelicals all believe the same thing, I am reassured to see that – as with so many columnists – he hasn’t allowed his ignorance of my position to tamper with his natural indolence by troubling to find out what I actually do believe before presuming to write about it.

I can claim no such loathing for the vast majority of evangelicals, or indeed for evangelicalism, though it is not part of my Roman Catholic religious inheritance. I could scarcely have such a loathing, married as I am to my wife Alice, who is a devoted evangelical and not merely a perfunctory one. She has just returned from New Wine, where she has served in the prayer ministry team for a number of years; she works at Burrswood Christian Hospital and she is just starting training to become a lay reader (at the enthusiastic suggestion of her vicar, incidentally a graduate of Oak Hill). I hope this admission doesn’t get her hounded out. Her diocesan bishop took particular, some would say prurient, pains to scrutinise her marital background before agreeing that she could go forward, precisely, he admitted, because of who she is married to. We’ve only been married for the last 21 years.

Furthermore, our three children have also been brought up in the evangelical tradition. Two of them were Christened by Bruce Collins, now one of the leaders of New Wine and the third by Doug Holt, now canon of Bristol and husband of Anne of the Bible Society. These are people we count as friends. But perhaps I am mistaken and these folk aren’t true evangelicals – that’s one of the troubles, isn’t it: the exclusivism and mutual antagonism of some of the sects? No, it’s not evangelicalism, or evangelicals, I loathe, merely some of the practitioners who have made such a spectacle and scandal of the Church in recent years. They are by no means the majority, though they would like to pretend they are and presume to speak for all the rest.

They are the sort of people who claim themselves so superior to their bishops that they won’t allow them to touch them for ordination, or who would not allow the Archbishop of Canterbury to preach from their pulpits (they should be so lucky) for fear that he might dangerously challenge the comfortable beliefs of their flocks, the sort of people who pick and choose the sins that are acceptable and condemn those – always committed by other, lesser people – that are not. Why is remarrying divorced people now OK – allowing them to continue fornicating – but not recognising the lifelong commitment of gay people to each other? Why does the Bishop of Carlisle happily bless nuclear submarines and, for all I know, dogs and cats, but not the unions of people who wish to demonstrate their devotion to each other for ever?

The trouble with these people, my wife always says, is that they don’t read their Bibles, for they know nothing of charity. I think she’s right and I am in mortal danger of losing mine. It’s time to move on.

Stephen Bates will be succeeded as the Guardian’s religious affairs correspondent by Riazat Butt, the first Muslim to be appointed to such a post by a British national newspaper.
Extreme Ironing
14-12-2007, 00:28
A nicely written article and he expresses accurately the real reason people dislike evangelicals.
Bitchkitten
14-12-2007, 00:53
Good for him.
I come pretty close myself to losing all sense of charity and tolerance for these people.
Mordithia
14-12-2007, 02:12
Religious intolerance of homosexuals is only vile, institutional homophobia for no other reason than because God said so. I say this as a non-practising Christian but frankly the world's religions need to adapt to the changing circumstances. God's law is neither infallible nor immutable and since God is supposedly all-loving, all-good, omniscient, omnipresent and ominpotent, I completely fail to see how such a loving and caring divine father would condone such unthinking intolerance.
Rubiconic Crossings
14-12-2007, 17:54
A nicely written article and he expresses accurately the real reason people dislike evangelicals.

Very much so...although I am an atheist I can live with people believing in a god if it makes them happy....like this bloke. But the one's who rant and scream and throw their toys out because someone is gay black red yellow whater need to grow the fuck up

Good for him.
I come pretty close myself to losing all sense of charity and tolerance for these people.

My was lost decades ago.

Religious intolerance of homosexuals is only vile, institutional homophobia for no other reason than because God said so. I say this as a non-practising Christian but frankly the world's religions need to adapt to the changing circumstances. God's law is neither infallible nor immutable and since God is supposedly all-loving, all-good, omniscient, omnipresent and ominpotent, I completely fail to see how such a loving and caring divine father would condone such unthinking intolerance.

That would be the correct motorcycle.
Whereyouthinkyougoing
14-12-2007, 18:05
Wait, I'm confused. There actually are Evangelical Christians in the UK (in any significant numbers)?

I honestly had no idea.

That's fucking scary.
Constantinopolis
14-12-2007, 18:16
the sort of people who pick and choose the sins that are acceptable and condemn those – always committed by other, lesser people – that are not.
And that is precisely the problem with these fundamentalists. What they really believe - though none will admit it - is that they themselves are sinless. They have fallen into the sin of arrogance, which, if you'll remember, was the thing that originally got Lucifer banished to hell.
Newer Burmecia
14-12-2007, 18:29
Wait, I'm confused. There actually are Evangelical Christians in the UK (in any significant numbers)?

I honestly had no idea.

That's fucking scary.
Well, Operation Christian Vote and the various other pro-life, homophobic and theocratic groups couldn't muster the energy to get a single seat in Parliament, or even remotely close to a single seat in Parliament. And except in Northern Ireland, where it's still illegal and NI parties want to keep it that way, the vast majority of people accept abortion, and civil unions were passed without much fuss. Gay adoption and legislation against discrimination based on sexuality was passed with only dissent in Northern Ireland (the DUP) and Ms. Opus Dei Ruth kelly. Most conservatism in the UK is more focused on single parent families, the EU, immigrants and Evil PC Liberals!!!!!.

Well, that's may take on it. As much as I dislike rabid conservatism in the UK, it's nowhere as bad here as in the US.
Rubiconic Crossings
14-12-2007, 18:35
Well, Operation Christian Vote and the various other pro-life, homophobic and theocratic groups couldn't muster the energy to get a single seat in Parliament, or even remotely close to a single seat in Parliament. And except in Northern Ireland, where it's still illegal and NI parties want to keep it that way, the vast majority of people accept abortion, and civil unions were passed without much fuss. Gay adoption and legislation against discrimination based on sexuality was passed with only dissent in Northern Ireland (the DUP) and Ms. Opus Dei Ruth kelly. Most conservatism in the UK is more focused on single parent families, the EU, immigrants and Evil PC Liberals!!!!!.

Well, that's may take on it. As much as I dislike rabid conservatism in the UK, it's nowhere as bad here as in the US.

mmm I am not sure. I think its better hidden or rather not as obvious...
Newer Burmecia
14-12-2007, 18:38
mmm I am not sure. I think its better hidden or rather not as obvious...
Hidden, but without much effect on public policy outside of Northern Ireland, if at all.
Snafturi
14-12-2007, 18:38
And that is precisely the problem with these fundamentalists. What they really believe - though none will admit it - is that they themselves are sinless. They have fallen into the sin of arrogance, which, if you'll remember, was the thing that originally got Lucifer banished to hell.

It's kind of ironic when you think about it. A goodly percentage of the fundamentalists are the ones furthest from the true message of the Bible.

IMO you are 100% correct in the assesment that they see themselves as sinless. Or somehow automatically forgiven of sin. And yeah, it's good old fashioned arrogance.

It pisses me off that fundamentalist now largely means "intolerant and crazy" and evangelism has come to mean "crazy and willing to tell you about it." Reading comprehension, you think it would be a basic skill.
Kryozerkia
14-12-2007, 19:00
Religious intolerance of homosexuals is only vile, institutional homophobia for no other reason than because God said so. I say this as a non-practising Christian but frankly the world's religions need to adapt to the changing circumstances. God's law is neither infallible nor immutable and since God is supposedly all-loving, all-good, omniscient, omnipresent and ominpotent, I completely fail to see how such a loving and caring divine father would condone such unthinking intolerance.

You're right. Some religious folks do say that God is supposedly all loving yet in the next breath they say that God punishes those who don't believe. But, why would he punish if he is all-loving? If he is all-knowing? After all, if he is all-knowing then he obviously KNOWS that some people don't believe, so why punish, it won't change anything.
Snafturi
14-12-2007, 19:37
You're right. Some religious folks do say that God is supposedly all loving yet in the next breath they say that God punishes those who don't believe. But, why would he punish if he is all-loving? If he is all-knowing? After all, if he is all-knowing then he obviously KNOWS that some people don't believe, so why punish, it won't change anything.

Because the people that say that are assholes.
[NS]I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS
14-12-2007, 20:28
Wait, I'm confused. There actually are Evangelical Christians in the UK (in any significant numbers)?

I honestly had no idea.

That's fucking scary.
Oh yes. There isn't a huge amount of them but they definitely exist. I should know, my parents are evangelical Christians. It ain't much fun.
Laerod
14-12-2007, 21:45
Wait, I'm confused. There actually are Evangelical Christians in the UK (in any significant numbers)?

I honestly had no idea.

That's fucking scary.They're everywhere. They comprise the ranks of the PBC over here.
The Pastriarchy
14-12-2007, 22:00
Why would any gay person wish to be a Christian? These are people condemned for who they are, not what they do, despite all the sanctimonious bleating to the contrary, men and women despised for wanting the sort of intimacy that heterosexual people take for granted and that the Church is only too happy to bless. Instead, in 2007, the Church of England and other denominations jump up and down to secure exclusive rights to continue discriminating against a minority of people it does not like. What a spectacle the Church has made of itself! What hope of proselytising in a country which has accepted civil partnerships entirely without rancour or bigotry?He sounds a bit like an atheist here! I don't know the answer to this question. As Bates says, people can't choose not to be gay; it's something they are, not just something they do. But gay people can choose to be part of a religion that doesn't discriminate against them. If they can't stomach atheism or are inclined to believe in a higher power, there are liberal religions that don't condemn homosexuality: UUs and Quakers come to mind (though that doesn't hold for all Quakers).

Do we have any gay Christians here who can shed light on this? I'm a straight female atheist, so I'm practically the opposite of the people Bates talks about. :-P
Abdju
14-12-2007, 22:33
mmm I am not sure. I think its better hidden or rather not as obvious...

I think we do have far fewer Christian religious extremists (evangelicals) than in American culture, perhaps because of history. Being open about which sect you belonged to in the past, in the UK, wasn't very clever.

Following on from the that the fact we have the CoE has historically meant less space for independent churches, unlike in the US.

Things are changing, however, and not for the better.
Kontor
14-12-2007, 22:38
I think we do have far fewer Christian religious extremists (evangelicals) than in American culture, perhaps because of history. Being open about which sect you belonged to in the past, in the UK, wasn't very clever.

Following on from the that the fact we have the CoE has historically meant less space for independent churches, unlike in the US.

Things are changing, however, and not for the better.

You have plenty of radical muslims though. But hey, if you had a choice, listen about Jesus or get your head sawed off, the head-off deal would be much more appealing to you right?
Dundee-Fienn
14-12-2007, 22:38
I think we do have far fewer Christian religious extremists (evangelicals) than in American culture.

and Northern Irelands violent history is because of what exactly?
Abdju
14-12-2007, 23:06
and Northern Irelands violent history is because of what exactly?

As I said, in the UK, historically it hasn't been good to be too public about ones religious affiliation, precisely because of our history.
Abdju
14-12-2007, 23:07
You have plenty of radical muslims though. But hey, if you had a choice, listen about Jesus or get your head sawed off, the head-off deal would be much more appealing to you right?

Depends on the saw I 'spose...
Kontor
14-12-2007, 23:11
Depends on the saw I 'spose...


The kind most terrorists use.
Whereyouthinkyougoing
14-12-2007, 23:23
I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13291893']Oh yes. There isn't a huge amount of them but they definitely exist. I should know, my parents are evangelical Christians. It ain't much fun.Ugh. I'm sorry.

They're everywhere. They comprise the ranks of the PBC over here.Yeah, but those are nutcases everybody laughs at. And I have NEVER met one of them, nor met someone who met one of them.
Laerod
14-12-2007, 23:35
Yeah, but those are nutcases everybody laughs at. And I have NEVER met one of them, nor met someone who met one of them.Yeah, well, consider yourself lucky then...
Whereyouthinkyougoing
14-12-2007, 23:38
Yeah, well, consider yourself lucky then...
You have? Egdas! Du verkehrst in den falschen Kreisen. o.o
Regenius
14-12-2007, 23:44
You're right. Some religious folks do say that God is supposedly all loving yet in the next breath they say that God punishes those who don't believe. But, why would he punish if he is all-loving? If he is all-knowing? After all, if he is all-knowing then he obviously KNOWS that some people don't believe, so why punish, it won't change anything.

Probably because the Bible is rife with contradictions? I mean God was a pretty scary character in the old testament.
Dundee-Fienn
14-12-2007, 23:58
As I said, in the UK, historically it hasn't been good to be too public about ones religious affiliation, precisely because of our history.

Orangemen
Rangers and celtic football shirts
Singing sectarian songs
Murals
Tattoos
etc

All still a part of modern Britain

Just because you feel it is prudent not to divulge your religious affiliations doesn't mean large portions of the population follow you
Tongass
15-12-2007, 04:46
The Catholic position is that anything sexual outside of making babies with a spouse is considered sinful, and homosexual sex is lumped in with masturbation, straight sex outside of marriage, and using a condom inside of marriage. I think this might be the position of some other Christian religions too. The anti-homosexuality aspect is just an ingrained bigotry thing that will take a while to fade like racism and sexism.
Rubiconic Crossings
15-12-2007, 12:49
Hidden, but without much effect on public policy outside of Northern Ireland, if at all.

I was thinking more about the conservative comments in your post.....but make no mistake...homophobia is not uncommon in the UK...esp violent assaults on gays....let alone the other insidious prejudices...
Rubiconic Crossings
15-12-2007, 12:54
I think we do have far fewer Christian religious extremists (evangelicals) than in American culture, perhaps because of history. Being open about which sect you belonged to in the past, in the UK, wasn't very clever.

Following on from the that the fact we have the CoE has historically meant less space for independent churches, unlike in the US.

Things are changing, however, and not for the better.

With regards to the various odd ball sects...yes. They are not really exposed but they exist.

You have plenty of radical muslims though. But hey, if you had a choice, listen about Jesus or get your head sawed off, the head-off deal would be much more appealing to you right?

I suspect mainly because they have the spotlight on them. I ask you to consider the Orangemen in Northern Ireland.

Yeah, well, consider yourself lucky then...

Yeah. I have had the displeasure of having to deal with Jesus Army types when I was a traveller.
Mordithia
15-12-2007, 13:01
The Catholic position is that anything sexual outside of making babies with a spouse is considered sinful, and homosexual sex is lumped in with masturbation, straight sex outside of marriage, and using a condom inside of marriage. I think this might be the position of some other Christian religions too. The anti-homosexuality aspect is just an ingrained bigotry thing that will take a while to fade like racism and sexism.

Well, wtih absolutely no disrespect intended to any Catholics, I refuse to have my religious views dictated by a bunch of out-of-touch old men in the Vatican whose only real purpose is to elect another similar man when the previous one dies.

After all, anyone of whatever persuasion, gender, race etc. who has the unquestioned ability to speak infallibly ("I say this so God says this") is in a very dangerous situation.
Hurdegaryp
15-12-2007, 13:25
Probably because the Bible is rife with contradictions? I mean God was a pretty scary character in the old testament.

No kidding. Bluntly put, God is pretty much a borderline schizophrenic totalitarian tyrant in the Old Testament. And despite the statement that He is omnipotent, he seems to loose control rather often. Usually he rectified the situation by means of large scale massacres, whereas he theoretically could easily have shown the sinners the error of their ways by gentler means. I guess there wasn't much fun to be had by doing that, though.

And boy, the fundamentalists certainly do love that God. They can hardly wait for the time of Purification, when the flock takes up arms to unleash the same carnage upon the unworthy as once their 'benevolent' God did.
Kellboi
15-12-2007, 13:27
After all, anyone of whatever persuasion, gender, race etc. who has the unquestioned ability to speak fallibly ("I say this so God says this") is in a very dangerous situation.

Did you mean infallibly?
Mordithia
15-12-2007, 13:28
Did you mean infallibly?

Bugger. Yes :)
Hydesland
15-12-2007, 15:26
Did this guy just say that Anglicans are Evangelicals?

Oh dear...
Hydesland
15-12-2007, 15:29
Wait, I'm confused. There actually are Evangelical Christians in the UK (in any significant numbers)?

I honestly had no idea.

That's fucking scary.

Of course there is. Evangelicalism originated from Europe and then emigrated to the US, not the other way round.
Rubiconic Crossings
15-12-2007, 23:11
Did this guy just say that Anglicans are Evangelicals?

Oh dear...

Evangelism is definitely not unheard of in Anglican circles. Hells bells....from the first missionaries to 'Deepest Africa' during Empire to the rabid hatred emanating from Nigeria (for example)..