NationStates Jolt Archive

So it's almost time again, yep Christmas, Xmas, Crimbo, Turkey cutting time, whatever you want to call it, it is immenant.

I for one can't stand it and look forward to it being over so that I can concentrate on New Years!

My reasons for this are many and largely emotional.

However there is a cold hard rational side of me that shouts out stuff like.

It's hypocritical for a non Christian to celebrate Crimbo. How do non Christians that do celebrate it square that one up then?

Why should I give somebody I hardly talk to a card, even if they give me one? Standing there with that hurt look in their eyes as I take the proffered gift without returning one. What's Christian about the idea of giving a gift and expecting one back?

Christmas spirit, whats that then? Bah humbug!

So am I the only one then?

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

So am I the only one then?

On NSG, it's very much akin to asking if I am the only one with an internet access and attitude.

So it's almost time again, yep Christmas, Xmas, Crimbo, Turkey cutting time, whatever you want to call it, it is immenant.

I for one can't stand it and look forward to it being over so that I can concentrate on New Years!

My reasons for this are many and largely emotional.

However there is a cold hard rational side of me that shouts out stuff like.

It's hypocritical for a non Christian to celebrate Crimbo. How do non Christians that do celebrate it square that one up then?

Why should I give somebody I hardly talk to a card, even if they give me one? Standing there with that hurt look in their eyes as I take the proffered gift without returning one. What's Christian about the idea of giving a gift and expecting one back?

Christmas spirit, whats that then? Bah humbug!

So am I the only one then?

Well, they might be celebrating the winter solictice (a little belated, but still), or the Saturnalia, Yule, Mithras' birthday... or maybe they celebrate the simple fact that their happy to be able to buy gifts for their loved ones?
Since when has christmas been about christianity? Seriously?

Gay aul scrooge :p

Well, they might be celebrating the winter solictice (a little belated, but still), or the Saturnalia, Yule, Mithras' birthday... or maybe they celebrate the simple fact that their happy to be able to buy gifts for their loved ones?
Since when has christmas been about christianity? Seriously?

Well why not call it by another name? Why not celebrate it on the right day? Christmas has always been Christian.

Chrimbo has nothing to do with Christmas. :mad: NOob.

*can has cheezeborgor*

Well why not call it by another name? Why not celebrate it on the right day? Christmas was Christian.

I made a little correction. Christmas us highly commercialized and nothing about christianity anymore.

Hell, I didn't even know that Christmas was about Jesus until like...12.

Well why not call it by another name? Why not celebrate it on the right day? Christmas has always been Christian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus

Would you look at that. Something on December 25th that isn't Christmas. Besides, Christmas is just an attempt to hijack various pagan winter festivals. Jesus wasn't born anywhere near December 25th. I have no issues with taking part in hijacking Chritmas into a secular gift exchanging festival and time for congregating with friends and family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus

Would you look at that. Something on December 25th that isn't Christmas. Besides, Christmas is just an attempt to hijack various pagan winter festivals. Jesus wasn't born anywhere near December 25th. I have no issues with taking part in hijacking Chritmas into a secular gift exchanging festival and time for congregating with friends and family.

Yeah yeah I know all about that. Why not celebrate under it's proper name, if you feel the need to celebrate some Roman festival? Why call it Christmas if you are celebrating something else?

It's akin to Satanism. Nothing to do with Satan or Christianity, why call it that? The only reason I can think of is to piss off the Christians!

Yeah yeah I know all about that. Why not celebrate under it's proper name, if you feel the need to celebrate some Roman festival? Why call it Christmas if you are celebrating something else?
What makes you think that if I was celebrating Sol Incivtus I'd call it Christmas?
Oh, adn the important part of that post:
Besides, Christmas is just an attempt to hijack various pagan winter festivals. Jesus wasn't born anywhere near December 25th. I have no issues with taking part in hijacking Chritmas into a secular gift exchanging festival and time for congregating with friends and family.
Just in case you missed it.

It's akin to Satanism. Nothing to do with Satan or Christianity, why call it that? The only reason I can think of is to piss off the Christians!

That and La Vey was probably trying to get some rebellious teenagers as members.

What makes you think that if I was celebrating Sol Incivtus I'd call it Christmas?
Oh, adn the important part of that post:

Fair point.


Just in case you missed it.

Naaa I didn't miss it. You are wrong though. They have succeeded, Christmas is a Christian festival.



That and La Vey was probably trying to get some rebellious teenagers as members.

That makes sense.

Yeah yeah I know all about that. Why not celebrate under it's proper name, if you feel the need to celebrate some Roman festival? Why call it Christmas if you are celebrating something else?
Because other people call it Christmas, and it is easier just to go with it than fight a pointless battle. Unless you're on the 'net, then you should fight the battle anyway because that is what the long-distance, anonymous communication was invented for.
It's akin to Satanism. Nothing to do with Satan or Christianity, why call it that? The only reason I can think of is to piss off the Christians!
LaVey was already plagiarizing from everybody else, why not rip off Christianity too? Plus, it helps win over that lucrative angsty-teen market.

Because other people call it Christmas, and it is easier just to go with it than fight a pointless battle.

While that sorta makes sense, it is a load of bollox though innit? I mean if what you are really doing is celebrating an entirely different festival but just calling it Christmas, then why play along with the whole cards, and tinsel, and tree, and turkey thing? I mean it walks like Christmas, it squawks like Christmas, right!


Unless you're on the 'net, then you should fight the battle anyway because that is what the long-distance, anonymous communication was invented for.

Heh yeah, that and porn I guess.



LaVey was already plagiarizing from everybody else, why not rip off Christianity too? Plus, it helps win over that lucrative angsty-teen market.

So to piss off the Christians then. Again that makes a sorta sense, but what about 50 year Satanists that still call it by that name?

Naaa I didn't miss it. You are wrong though. They have succeeded, Christmas is a Christian festival.

Evidently it was the point you missed. Let me spell it out for you:

Christianity hijacked pagan winter festivals and made them its own.
Assorted groups of people are hijacking Christmas and making it their own. Except they're not changing the name.
Therefore, it is not contradictory for non-Christians to celebrate this new non-Christian Christmas in just the same way as it is not contradictory for Christians to celebrate a non-pagan winter festival. You see how that works?

I have no issues with taking part in hijacking Christmas into a secular gift exchanging festival and time for congregating with friends and family.

Yeah.

While that sorta makes sense, it is a load of bollox though innit? I mean if what you are really doing is celebrating an entirely different festival but just calling it Christmas, then why play along with the whole cards, and tinsel, and tree, and turkey thing? I mean it walks like Christmas, it squawks like Christmas, right!

What do cards, tinsel, a tree and turkey have to do with Jesus or celebrating his birth?

Evidently it was the point you missed. Let me spell it out for you:

Christianity hijacked pagan winter festivals and made them its own.
Assorted groups of people are hijacking Christmas and making it their own. Except they're not changing the name.
Therefore, it is not contradictory for non-Christians to celebrate this new non-Christian Christmas in just the same way as it is not contradictory for Christians to celebrate a non-pagan winter festival. You see how that works?

Nope I got that also. I ignored it though as blatantly rubbish.

It's rubbish for a few reasons. The first one being, that if that where the case then they would also try to change the name, as Christmas really is a Christian thing. The other reason being that I have never heard anybody moot the point ever, anywhere, not in public, not in private,(you are in fact the very first) I know of no such 'movement'. You see how that works?

The Saturnalia starts on Monday the 17th, ante diem XVI Kalendae Ianuariae, by the way. Augustus limited the festival to three days but it was later extended to five. After a public sacrifice to Saturn in the Forum, there was a public feast (could be problematic these days, I suppose). As the feast breaks up you shout "Io Saturnalia!" and run off to spend the next several days in general revelry, gift-giving, feasting, visiting friends and family, all that. Oh, and remember, masters have to wait on their slaves on at least one of the days and treat them as equals.

What do cards, tinsel, a tree and turkey have to do with Jesus or celebrating his birth?

Nothing but it is how Christians celebrate Christmas. Lets take for example that other Cristian festival lent.

Say that you wanted to turn lent into a secular tradition, would you just practice it in exactly the same way as Christianity does, or would you want to put a different stamp on it?(say by over indulging instead of giving something up)

Nope I got that also. I ignored it though as blatantly rubbish.

It's rubbish for a few reasons. The first one being, that if that where the case then they would also try to change the name, as Christmas really is a Christian thing.Have you ever heard of name recognition? Have a Christmas sale and you'll attract people who want to buy things for Christmas. Simple.
The other reason being that I have never heard anybody moot the point ever, anywhere, not in public, not in private,(you are in fact the very first) I know of no such 'movement'. You see how that works?

It's not a 'movement'. It's just happening. Mass media and all that is leading to Christmas being more of a Hallmark holiday than a religious one. People can make money off Christmas, and they are, and they want to make more money off it. So they're avoiding associating it with religion, so as to appeal to people from religions other than Christianity. So Christmas is gradually having less and less to do with celebrating the birth of Jesus, and more and more to do with the exchanging of gifts, and decorating your house, and having a big turkey dinner.


And it's funny that you think my point is completely rubbish then didn't address it at all.

Christmas is becoming a secular holiday. You'd have to be blind not to see that. How is it contradictory for non-Christians to celebrate a secular holiday?

Nothing
So why are they there at all? Could it be because people who sell them have a vested interest in it being so?
but it is how Christians celebrate Christmas. Lets take for example that other Cristian festival lent.

Say that you wanted to turn lent into a secular tradition, would you just practice it in exactly the same way as Christianity does, or would you want to put a different stamp on it?(say by over indulging instead of giving something up)

Why would one want to? You can't make money off lent. Easter, now that's a whole different matter. You can cash in on Easter. What does the Easter Bunny and chocolate eggs have to do with the ressurection of Jesus? Nothing at all. So why are they there? Maybe because there's money to be made from selling Easter Eggs, and a cute rabbit is much more appealing to kids than a Jewish Zombie.

Have you ever heard of name recognition? Have a Christmas sale and you'll attract people who want to buy things for Christmas. Simple.


It's not a 'movement'. It's just happening. Mass media and all that is leading to Christmas being more of a Hallmark holiday than a religious one. People can make money off Christmas, and they are, and they want to make more money off it. So they're avoiding associating it with religion, so as to appeal to people from religions other than Christianity. So Christmas is gradually having less and less to do with celebrating the birth of Jesus, and more and more to do with the exchanging of gifts, and decorating your house, and having a big turkey dinner.


And it's funny that you think my point is completely rubbish then didn't address it at all.

Christmas is becoming a secular holiday. You'd have to be blind not to see that. How is it contradictory for non-Christians to celebrate a secular holiday?

If that is the case then they should change the name. Christmas is not a secular holiday, it is though a Christian one.

Any how I said hypocritical. It is certainly hypocritical for a non Christian to celebrate a Christian holiday.

Any how I said hypocritical. It is certainly hypocritical for a non Christian to celebrate a Christian holiday.

So I can't come and feast with my Christian friends? (T_T)

Why would one want to? You can't make money off lent. Easter, now that's a whole different matter. You can cash in on Easter. What does the Easter Bunny and chocolate eggs have to do with the ressurection of Jesus? Nothing at all. So why are they there? Maybe because there's money to be made from selling Easter Eggs, and a cute rabbit is much more appealing to kids than a Jewish Zombie.

Yet, you can't make money of of Lent yet? If these money makers that you tell me are responsible for Christmas and Easter are indeed so, then I'm sure given time they'll turn their grubby little mits towards lent.

If all you say is true though, why have we not yet commercialised Ramadam? Why only Christian festivals?

Nope I ain't buying. All you have given me are excuses for hypocracy no real substance there at all.

If that is the case then they should change the name. Christmas is not a secular holiday, it is though a Christian one.
Did you just ignore that bit about name recognition? Though the term Holiday Season is used more than Christmas....perhaps that'll be replacing christmas all together.

Any how I said hypocritical. It is certainly hypocritical for a non Christian to celebrate a Christian holiday.

Did you eyes just not register "Christmas is becoming a secular holiday. You'd have to be blind not to see that. How is it contradictory for non-Christians to celebrate a secular holiday?" or something? Did the information just not say in your brain? This is why I hate arguing with you, you seem to ignore what I say and replace it with something totally different. It's very frustrating.

So I can't come and feast with my Christian friends? (T_T)

Now that at least is a sensible answer with at least a ring of truth to it. However we are lead to believe that Crimbo is a time for family, isn't it then still hypocritical to celebrate a family Xmas if nobody in the family is in fact Christian?

Yet, you can't make money of of Lent yet? If these money makers that you tell me are responsible for Christmas and Easter are indeed so, then I'm sure given time they'll turn their grubby little mits towards lent.
Quite possibly

If all you say is true though, why have we not yet commercialised Ramadam? Why only Christian festivals?
Because the western world is mainly Christian and has been for some time. You can try making money appealing to the mniority, but you'll make more appealing to the majority.

Nope I ain't buying. All you have given me are excuses for hypocracy no real substance there at all.

And what have you given? "Wah wah, Christmas is Christian and always has been and always will be and it's totally impossible for anything else to ever be true ever and I'm not even going to try and back up this bullshit"

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Internets.

You win them.

Did you just ignore that bit about name recognition? Though the term Holiday Season is used more than Christmas....perhaps that'll be replacing christmas all together.

Yeah I like everybody else here tend to ignore the bits that I don't feel are relevant. Name recognition, is a lousy argument to make. Lets still call it Christmas even though its not really?



Did you eyes just not register "Christmas is becoming a secular holiday. You'd have to be blind not to see that. How is it contradictory for non-Christians to celebrate a secular holiday?" or something? Did the information just not say in your brain? This is why I hate arguing with you, you seem to ignore what I say and replace it with something totally different. It's very frustrating.

Again I saw that and answered it. Did you not read my answer? No I distill the essence of what I read and answer appropriately.

You somehow think that this:

'If that is the case then they should change the name. Christmas is not a secular holiday, it is though a Christian one.'

Did not answer you, does it not make it plain that I disagree with your comments on 'becoming a secular holiday'

Do you think then that it failed to address both of the points you made?

I agree it is very frustrating when people just don't seem to read what you write.

Yeah I like everybody else here tend to ignore the bits that I don't feel are relevant. Name recognition, is a lousy argument to make. Lets still call it Christmas even though its not really?
You go tell that to the marketing industry. I'm sure they'll be delighted that you've saved them millions upon millions of dollars.




Again I saw that and answered it. Did you not read my answer? No I distill the essence of what I read and answer appropriately.

You somehow think that this:

'If that is the case then they should change the name. Christmas is not a secular holiday, it is though a Christian one.'
Holiday Season.

Did not answer you, does it not make it plain that I disagree with your comments on 'becoming a secular holiday'
What aspects of Christmas have to do with the birth of Jesus? The only one I can think of is putting a candle in the window on Christmas Eve. Tree? No. Decorations? No. Turkey? No. Gift exchanging? No. How can Christmas be a Christian holiday when it has so little to do with Christianity?

Do you think then that it failed to address both of the points you made?
Saying 'I disagree' and then not elaborating isn't really addressing the points.

Christmas is a hybridization of similar holidays falling around this time of year. It's a celebration of family, peace, generosity and hope for a brighter new year. I thik it's remarkable that so many cultures have assigned such similar meaning to the vicinity of the winter solstice.

It's also a time for quality baked goods. :)

Because the western world is mainly Christian and has been for some time. You can try making money appealing to the mniority, but you'll make more appealing to the majority.

Feasible. Yet I live in the UK where the majority are Atheist, and we have a large number of Muslims. I would have expected to see some other track at least tried by now, if what you say is true.

Although that still does not answer the questions from an individuals POV, only from a marketing POV.
Why would your individual atheist for example, buy into it?


And what have you given? "Wah wah, Christmas is Christian and always has been and always will be and it's totally impossible for anything else to ever be true ever and I'm not even going to try and back up this bullshit"

Hehah okay that may well be true. I'll not applogise, I did say right at the start that much of my dislike for crimbo is emotional.

Yet the point still stands. I have not yet been shown that Christmas is now or is becoming a secular festival, nor have I been shown yet that Xmas is not a Christian festival, and so I still say that a non Christian celebrating it is engaging in hypocracy. Other than of course your say so.

Christmas is a hybridization of similar holidays falling around this time of year. It's a celebration of family, peace, generosity and hope for a brighter new year. I thik it's remarkable that so many cultures have assigned such similar meaning to the vicinity of the winter solstice.

It's also a time for quality baked goods. :)

I've always looked at it as the time of year when I give gifts to my family members in exchange for gifts. But then we're non-Christians. I don't particularly care who was born around this time of year, and how many different traditions converged on this day, as long as I get enough gift money to buy a new laptop.

I've always looked at it as the time of year when I give gifts to my family members in exchange for gifts. But then we're non-Christians. I don't particularly care who was born around this time of year, and how many different traditions converged on this day, as long as I get enough gift money to buy a new laptop.

Jesus wasn't born anywhere near late December. It makes fundy christians happy to celebrate His birth around that time and I'm okay with that as Jesus' meaning fits rather well into the Christmas theme. But few things raise my ire more than those same fundies trying to pretend Christmas is an exclusively christian holiday.

How to get rid of christmas:

Don't write xmas cards. It takes about five years, but then you won't receive any card anymore, not even from your own mother.

Don't give gifts

Go to a xmas dinner in a bad mood and ruin everybody elses xmas by telling them there is no god and xmas is fake

Move to a non-xtian country, but be careful. In China people love ugly christmas decorations and getting gifts. They don't even know what it's about.

What aspects of Christmas have to do with the birth of Jesus? The only one I can think of is putting a candle in the window on Christmas Eve. Tree? No. Decorations? No. Turkey? No. Gift exchanging? No. How can Christmas be a Christian holiday when it has so little to do with Christianity?

Yeah we are back again at the old 'they stole xmas from us'. I'll not deny that, tree, tinsel, yule log, all Pagan in origin we know all of that.

Yet 1000's of years ago them naughty Christians come along and took all of that, changed things up a bit, and concentrate coz this is the important bit, re-named it to Christmas and proclaimed it as their own.

This was sooo many years ago now that Christmas is Christian, it is about the birth of Christ. Go on go ask a few Christians.

If you want to celebrate it as something un-Christian, then why not call it by another name, or change the date, or change the practices. You know if you done that it would stop me right in my tracks, and you probably wouldn't have all these irate Christians moaning about the war on Christmas either.

Jesus wasn't born anywhere near late December. It makes fundy christians happy to celebrate His birth around that time and I'm okay with that as Jesus' meaning fits rather well into the Christmas theme. But few things raise my ire more than those same fundies trying to pretend Christmas is an exclusively christian holiday.

But Christmas is. The clue is in the name!

But Christmas is. The clue is in the name!

That's just a happy coincidence. :)

How does a Satanist justify celebrating Xmas? Easy: It keeps the wife off my ass.

How does a Satanist justify celebrating Xmas? Easy: It keeps the wife off my ass.

I thought you were also going to celebrate Smunkee day.

But Christmas is. The clue is in the name!

Um....no?

Christ was born in spring sometime. Rome said "Let's make Christmas in Winter!" in order to make the pagans stop partying all the time.

And we see how well that worked.

How does a Satanist justify celebrating Xmas? Easy: It keeps the wife off my ass.
But I thought you satanists were supposed to be into all that kinky stuff. The next thing you're going to do is try and deny that you are currently wearing leather chaps and a black mask, isn't it?

Um....no?

Christ was born in spring sometime. Rome said "Let's make Christmas in Winter!" in order to make the pagans stop partying all the time.

And we see how well that worked.

Umm what the Pagan Rome or the Christian Rome?

I thought you were also going to celebrate Smunkee day.

Yep sure will. along with my birthday and solstice. You know, if I convert to enough religions, I might just be able to legetimately claim every day as a religious holiday. Hmmmm....

But I thought you satanists were supposed to be into all that kinky stuff. The next thing you're going to do is try and deny that you are currently wearing leather chaps and a black mask, isn't it?

No comment.:cool:

The Saturnalia starts on Monday the 17th, ante diem XVI Kalendae Ianuariae, by the way. Augustus limited the festival to three days but it was later extended to five. After a public sacrifice to Saturn in the Forum, there was a public feast (could be problematic these days, I suppose). As the feast breaks up you shout "Io Saturnalia!" and run off to spend the next several days in general revelry, gift-giving, feasting, visiting friends and family, all that. Oh, and remember, masters have to wait on their slaves on at least one of the days and treat them as equals.

Is that where that tradition in the military for UK officers to swap ranks for Bxing Day?

Christmas is a hybridization of similar holidays falling around this time of year. It's a celebration of family, peace, generosity and hope for a brighter new year. I thik it's remarkable that so many cultures have assigned such similar meaning to the vicinity of the winter solstice.

It's also a time for quality baked goods. :)

*nods* Quality baked goods (especially my mother's pfeffernuse cookies) FTW.

Is that where that tradition in the military for UK officers to swap ranks for Bxing Day?



*nods* Quality baked goods (especially my mother's pfeffernuse cookies) FTW.

Didn't know there was such a tradition, but it could be. Over the history of the British Army most of the upper ranks have been educated in the Classics, and would have known about that aspect of the Saturnalia.

I don't care about giving gifts to people, all I care is about getting stuff for me.

That's why christmas should still be relevant, because it nets me stuff.

I don't care about giving gifts to people, all I care is about getting stuff for me.

That's why christmas should still be relevant, because it nets me stuff.
Fo' crizzle ma nizzle.

I don't understand how anyone could hate Christmas; it's awesome. I could very well be an atheist tomorrow and I would still celebrate Christmas. Why? Because Christmas is fun! It's a break from the mundane and there are plenty of weird, wacked-out traditions and customs that have arisen that have nothing to do with Jesus. Frankly, Jesus sounds like a pretty decent fellow, so why not celebrate his birth and have a little fun at the same time?

You get to decorate your house and make it look all spiffy, there's a ton of awesome food and you get to bake all sorts of good cookies and stuff. Then there's the presents. It feels good to get people gifts that they end up liking and enjoying. You know, the type of things they wouldn't buy for themselves, but they want them. I love chopping down a tree and putting it in my living room. I love the constant reruns of A Christmas Story on TV. I love the lights and decorations the city puts up. It's a good, festive time. I was raised celebrating Christmas and I'm not going to stop just because I don't go to Church or don't think the Bible is "teh awesome." It has become a huge part of my culture and I fully embrace it.

Besides, how depressing would it be if I sat at home not doing anything while everyone else gets to have fun? I suppose I could snarl at people that the Jebus isn't real, but I'd rather move the furniture out of the way to make room for a dead pine tree.

So it's almost time again, yep Christmas, Xmas, Crimbo, Turkey cutting time, whatever you want to call it, it is immenant.

I for one can't stand it and look forward to it being over so that I can concentrate on New Years!

My reasons for this are many and largely emotional.

However there is a cold hard rational side of me that shouts out stuff like.

It's hypocritical for a non Christian to celebrate Crimbo. How do non Christians that do celebrate it square that one up then?

Why should I give somebody I hardly talk to a card, even if they give me one? Standing there with that hurt look in their eyes as I take the proffered gift without returning one. What's Christian about the idea of giving a gift and expecting one back?

Christmas spirit, whats that then? Bah humbug!

So am I the only one then?

You're right, you are too emotional, you've come up with nothing other than 'Christmas started off being about Christ, therefore it will always be about Christ' and a general dislike of people enjoying a festival time. Words change their meaning over time as views and cultures change. Our current culture is becoming less religious and thus celebrate the festival at this time without the religious parts while retaining the ones they like, that handily were present before the religions influenced the festival.

You are wilfully ignoring the changes in our culture regarding this festival and whining over how the word should be used. No one gives a crap what you think of it, they decide their own meaning of the word and the festival. If you don't want to celebrate it, don't.

Umm what the Pagan Rome or the Christian Rome?

Catholic Rome, sorry. I figured that would have been obvious.

It's hypocritical for a non Christian to celebrate Crimbo. How do non Christians that do celebrate it square that one up then? no it's not. Christmas has be commercialized so much that people relate Santa Claus more with Christmas than the Birth of Jesus.

What's Christian about the idea of giving a gift and expecting one back? why must you expect one back? I give many a gift to people and I don't expect anything except a "thank you" back.

Christmas spirit, whats that then? The spirit of giving. Of being generous and spreading good cheer during a season of ice and snow.

and yes, I did avoid any religous context to show how non-religious people can still enjoy christmas.

I don't understand how anyone could hate Christmas; it's awesome. I could very well be an atheist tomorrow and I would still celebrate Christmas. Why? Because Christmas is fun! It's a break from the mundane and there are plenty of weird, wacked-out traditions and customs that have arisen that have nothing to do with Jesus. Frankly, Jesus sounds like a pretty decent fellow, so why not celebrate his birth and have a little fun at the same time?

You get to decorate your house and make it look all spiffy, there's a ton of awesome food and you get to bake all sorts of good cookies and stuff. Then there's the presents. It feels good to get people gifts that they end up liking and enjoying. You know, the type of things they wouldn't buy for themselves, but they want them. I love chopping down a tree and putting it in my living room. I love the constant reruns of A Christmas Story on TV. I love the lights and decorations the city puts up. It's a good, festive time. I was raised celebrating Christmas and I'm not going to stop just because I don't go to Church or don't think the Bible is "teh awesome." It has become a huge part of my culture and I fully embrace it.

Besides, how depressing would it be if I sat at home not doing anything while everyone else gets to have fun? I suppose I could snarl at people that the Jebus isn't real, but I'd rather move the furniture out of the way to make room for a dead pine tree.

QFT

So it's almost time again, yep Christmas, Xmas, Crimbo, Turkey cutting time, whatever you want to call it, it is immenant.

I for one can't stand it and look forward to it being over so that I can concentrate on New Years!

My reasons for this are many and largely emotional.

However there is a cold hard rational side of me that shouts out stuff like.

It's hypocritical for a non Christian to celebrate Crimbo. How do non Christians that do celebrate it square that one up then?

Why should I give somebody I hardly talk to a card, even if they give me one? Standing there with that hurt look in their eyes as I take the proffered gift without returning one. What's Christian about the idea of giving a gift and expecting one back?

Christmas spirit, whats that then? Bah humbug!

So am I the only one then?

Tradition.

You're right, you are too emotional, you've come up with nothing other than 'Christmas started off being about Christ, therefore it will always be about Christ' and a general dislike of people enjoying a festival time. Words change their meaning over time as views and cultures change. Our current culture is becoming less religious and thus celebrate the festival at this time without the religious parts while retaining the ones they like, that handily were present before the religions influenced the festival.

You are wilfully ignoring the changes in our culture regarding this festival and whining over how the word should be used. No one gives a crap what you think of it, they decide their own meaning of the word and the festival. If you don't want to celebrate it, don't.

Hmm...where have I heard that phrase (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13287824&postcount=88) before?

I love accurate language.

So it's almost time again, yep Christmas, Xmas, Crimbo, Turkey cutting time, whatever you want to call it, it is immenant.

I for one can't stand it and look forward to it being over so that I can concentrate on New Years!

My reasons for this are many and largely emotional.

However there is a cold hard rational side of me that shouts out stuff like.

It's hypocritical for a non Christian to celebrate Crimbo. How do non Christians that do celebrate it square that one up then?

Why should I give somebody I hardly talk to a card, even if they give me one? Standing there with that hurt look in their eyes as I take the proffered gift without returning one. What's Christian about the idea of giving a gift and expecting one back?

Christmas spirit, whats that then? Bah humbug!

So am I the only one then?
Well it's not hypocritical anymore, society managed to turn Christmas into a secular shopping holiday, with it's own mythology and customs.Jesus and his crew have been put in a secondary role, with barely a minor mention to the whole point of christmas (in most families).

Is that bad? Of course not, good food and gifts are always welcome, regardless of cult or country!
Each person should celebrate Christmas as (s)he feels like, it's already more of an element of western culture instead of a religious tradition, anyway.

If we swich over from Christmas to Ramadan, will that makes you happy atheists?

If we swich over from Christmas to Ramadan, will that makes you happy atheists?

Was that supposed to be clever? Seriously, I'd like to know. 'Cause swapping imaginaries doesn't make the sanctimony any more palatable.

Was that supposed to be clever? Seriously, I'd like to know. 'Cause swapping imaginaries doesn't make the sanctimony any more palatable.

Relax Mr. Scroog, Christmas stoped being religous when mass media advertising came along.

If we swich over from Christmas to Ramadan, will that makes you happy atheists?

You clearly flunked out of Clever College. I fail to see how this is in any way relative to anything.

If we swich over from Christmas to Ramadan, will that makes you happy atheists?

And this is the cue for the arrival of : THE EVIL ATHEIST !!!
(n.b. I am evil because I am a convinced atheist. I am convinced religion is bullshit)

Ok ok here I am so there you go : I CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS ! And no I would not be happy if we switched it with ramadan, why the F would anyone be happy if you exchanged their lots of food and lots of presents day for a month long diet ? Have you even thought about this before posting it ?

to the OP :
Oh and the reason why I celebrate christmas is because it is one of the only times of the year where I can be with my family and break the barriers that have been created along the years. Every year, at christmas, I spend the whole day being joyous and merry to get all of the family members closer together. Seeing how grumpy and distant everyone of my family is, its a total pain. But take christmas away and ill thump you with a bible (extended edition).

And the name doesn't mean snuff. In French, its called Noel, which means celebration, and thats all I need it to be.

I say we do what thay do in Futurama, just call it Xmas. Thats what I do.

And this is the cue for the arrival of : THE EVIL ATHEIST !!!
(n.b. I am evil because I am a convinced atheist. I am convinced religion is bullshit)

Ok ok here I am so there you go : I CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS ! And no I would not be happy if we switched it with ramadan, why the F would anyone be happy if you exchanged their lots of food and lots of presents day for a month long diet ? Have you even thought about this before posting it ?

to the OP :
Oh and the reason why I celebrate christmas is because it is one of the only times of the year where I can be with my family and break the barriers that have been created along the years. Every year, at christmas, I spend the whole day being joyous and merry to get all of the family members closer together. Seeing how grumpy and distant everyone of my family is, its a total pain. But take christmas away and ill thump you with a bible (extended edition).

And the name doesn't mean snuff. In French, its called Noel, which means celebration, and thats all I need it to be.

That's kind of the point, I was just saying why do some of you atheists hate it so much when it's better than the alternative. I thought you would have understood it, im sorry I was mistaken.

You clearly flunked out of Clever College. I fail to see how this is in any way relative to anything.

I'm not too surprised you didnt get it from what I have seen of your earlier posts

That's kind of the point, I was just saying why do some of you atheists hate it so much when it's better than the alternative. I thought you would have understood it, im sorry I was mistaken.

"you atheists" ? "the alternative" ? I'm not even going to say anymore, these two quotes should be enough. You can stop trying to sound smart, your red nose and pointy hat give it away.

"you atheists" ? "the alternative" ? I'm not even going to say anymore, these two quotes should be enough. You can stop trying to sound smart, your red nose and pointy hat give it away.

The alternative....that I posted, you atheists.....because you admited to be one.

The alternative....that I posted, you atheists.....because you admited to be one.

No need to explain, I understood exactly what you said and on what tone you said it.

No need to explain, I understood exactly what you said and on what tone you said it.

Ahh are you a guru, or a god? How could a normal human understand tones through teh 1nterwebz!!!!!11!!1

Hmm...where have I heard that phrase (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13287824&postcount=88) before?

I love accurate language.

Indeed, but currently I have a 'meh' attitude on that. I should think he understood it, especially considering the amount of similarly ungrammatical sentences he makes. Hmm...and a lovely fallacy to go with that. My, I am feeling spiteful today.

Ahh are you a guru, or a god? How could a normal human understand tones through teh 1nterwebz!!!!!11!!1

I just understand it through the words and expressions you use. You can do it too : read my messages again and you'll see that i'm obviously trying to communicate a deliberately mocking and disrepectful tone.

It's akin to Satanism. Nothing to do with Satan or Christianity, why call it that? The only reason I can think of is to piss off the Christians!

Yup, when I give my friends carefully planned gifts to show them I'm thinking of them, wish my neighbours a merry Christmas, and prepare a long and delicious meal for my family, it's all bout spiting those damn Christians. :rolleyes:

Seriously, people like you are just as annoying as the idiots who run around screaming "War on Christmas!" If you don't like the holidays then lock yourself in your house, stuff your ears and mutter to yourself about how much happier you are to opt out of the celebrations.

I'm not Christian, but I celebrate Christmas. I call it Christmas because it's just tradition to do so. Sometimes, I even go to church (O NOES!) Has any Christian ever complained to me about using their holiday for my own non-religious celebrations? No. Does Christianity own the rights to giving gifts and well wishes to friends, family and neighbours on and around Christmas? No.

Why do you feel the need to make a happy time bitter and angry?

I will not be celebrating christmas again this year.

But Christmas is. The clue is in the name!

Christianity hardly has a monopoly on the anointed one.

I'm not too surprised you didn't get it from what I have seen of your earlier posts

Clearly, you never got enough credits for your minor in Condescending, either.

Epic fail.

Perhaps I didn't get it because... :eek: ...there wasn't any substance behind it?

You know, you keep implying that there's some sort of war on Christmas.

Well, maybe if so many of my fellow Christians would stop being such jerks, others wouldn't feel the need to do that. hmm?

Clearly, you never got enough credits for your minor in Condescending, either.

Epic fail.

Perhaps I didn't get it because... :eek: ...there wasn't any substance behind it?

You know, you keep implying that there's some sort of war on Christmas.

Well, maybe if so many of my fellow Christians would stop being such jerks, others wouldn't feel the need to do that. hmm?

There is no war on Christmas in those terms, but I have noticed a lot of atheists want to get rid of it just because they dislike christians. You aint too cleaver yourself buba.

Well, they might be celebrating the winter solictice (a little belated, but still), or the Saturnalia, Yule, Mithras' birthday... or maybe they celebrate the simple fact that their happy to be able to buy gifts for their loved ones?
Since when has christmas been about christianity? Seriously?Exactly. My family of atheists has always enjoyed and enthusiastically celebrated Christmas.

We could just care less about Christ. Family. Goodwill towards your fellow beings. Peace. Great things to celebrate.

Yeah yeah I know all about that. Why not celebrate under it's proper name, if you feel the need to celebrate some Roman festival? Why call it Christmas if you are celebrating something else?

It's akin to Satanism. Nothing to do with Satan or Christianity, why call it that? The only reason I can think of is to piss off the Christians!

You know, I just had this conversation with the wife. The name "Satanism" was designed to shock xtians, not piss them off. That was just an amusing side effect. Had Satanism developed in another culture, then LaVey no doubt would've used an image from that culture. Non-western Satanists (indeed all Satanists) are encouraged to use the dominant mythology of their own culture.

Xmas in its modern form is a very Satanic (read selfish) holiday. Religion represents only a small percentage of my hatred for the holiday. The majority of my hatred stems from personal reasons.

You know, I just had this conversation with the wife. The name "Satanism" was designed to shock xtians, not piss them off. That was just an amusing side effect.

Xmas in its modern form is a very Satanic (read selfish) holiday. Religion represents only a small percentage of my hatred for the holiday. The majority of my hatred stems from personal reasons.

X =/= Christ

*is becoming pissed off and showing the amusing side effects*

X =/= Christ

*is becoming pissed off and showing the amusing side effects*

X does = Christ. Via the Greek translation I think.

*Is very amused. Thank you*

X does = Christ. Via the Greek translation I think.

:confused:
It's all Greek to me.

*Is very amused. Thank you*
Anytime. :p

:confused:
It's all Greek to me.


{snip}

Here you go! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xmas)

Here you go! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xmas)

This proves that people are lazy.

If someone came up with a Greek symbol for my name, I wouldn't want them using it. Imagine being referred to as 'Sigma' or something...*shudders in mathematical horror*

Exactly. My family of atheists has always enjoyed and enthusiastically celebrated Christmas.

We could just care less about Christ. Family. Goodwill towards your fellow beings. Peace. Great things to celebrate.

Barbeque!* :cool:


*Barbecue food may personally not be enjoyed by poster, however poster may enjoy the spirit of the barbecue

This proves that people are lazy.

If someone came up with a Greek symbol for my name, I wouldn't want them using it. Imagine being referred to as 'Sigma' or something...*shudders in mathematical horror*

Please, I use runic initials, chinese characters and /or a personal symbol for my name as often as not. In fact there are people who won't accept my signature as real without a certain symbol being included.

Please, I use runic initials, chinese characters and /or a personal symbol for my name as often as not. In fact there are people who won't accept my signature as real without a certain symbol being included.

I guess it depends on how the symbol is pronounced. Xmas is fine if it is pronounced the same way as Christmas. Otherwise I just go 'lolwhut?'

English is the one of the only languages in which Christ is part of the name Christmas.

I'd like to point out that in French, it's Noel, in Danish, it's Jul and I am sure other people can point out other names.

These are still celebrated as if they were christmas, but it needn't have anything to do with christianity.

Man, oh man, what a silly thing to be mad about.

Man, oh man, what a silly thing to be mad about.

I tend to differ.

Beg to differ, rather..
*begs*

Christmas is eternal torture for such a soul as I. All those happy people, buying gifts and singing...carols...ugh.. Decorating those slaughtered innocents with..tinsel. I shudder even typing about how I shudder when I think about it.
If I could rip the head off of Christmas, I would do so. Too bad it is much like a hydra...many accursed heads that only grow back more in their place.
Merry Christmas!

I tend to differ.

All those happy people, buying gifts and singing...carols...ugh.. Decorating those slaughtered innocents with..tinsel.
Merry Christmas!

So, what you're saying is that you don't like others to be happy and you don't like trees getting cut down? This isn't meant to be inflammatory; just a summary of what I think I read in your last post.

Well why not call it by another name? Why not celebrate it on the right day? Christmas has always been Christian.

Er, no.
The date was chosen by the early church because the Saturnalia were celebrated by the Romans on that day.
The tradition of giving presents, the christmas tree, the sweet and sugary cakes, all those stem from pagan traditions, mostly Germanic/Norse.

The only thing that the christians contributed was a change of name, and even that in only a few languages. I believe in Skandinavia it's still largely called Yule.

Many of the original Celtic festivals were appropriate by the early Christian Church to make new worshippers more palatable to the idea of conversion. Eostre (Easter) was a goddess of fertility, Samhain was around the time of Halloween and so forth.

It's hypocritical for a non Christian to celebrate Crimbo. How do non Christians that do celebrate it square that one up then?


Because most of the fun parts of Christmas don't actually come from Christianity. I thought everybody knew that, apparently this scrooge doesn't.

If we swich over from Christmas to Ramadan, will that makes you happy atheists?

Ramadan is a Muslim holiday. Not an atheist one. So no, I doubt it would make them happy.

If we swich over from Christmas to Ramadan, will that makes you happy atheists?

You can swtich Lent with Ramadan, they both have the same origin anyway.
But christmas isn't religious, any more than marriage is a religious institution, or burials, or Easter.
All of them have been around a loooooooong time before christianity, all the church did was unilaterally declare them christian at some point.

Yeah we are back again at the old 'they stole xmas from us'. I'll not deny that, tree, tinsel, yule log, all Pagan in origin we know all of that.

Yet 1000's of years ago them naughty Christians come along and took all of that, changed things up a bit, and concentrate coz this is the important bit, re-named it to Christmas and proclaimed it as their own.

This was sooo many years ago now that Christmas is Christian, it is about the birth of Christ. Go on go ask a few Christians.

If you want to celebrate it as something un-Christian, then why not call it by another name, or change the date, or change the practices. You know if you done that it would stop me right in my tracks, and you probably wouldn't have all these irate Christians moaning about the war on Christmas either.

In many countries, as has been posted, it is not called Christmas.

As to why not change the name if it's no longer Christian... to most of us who celebrate it who are not Christians, the name doesn't matter all that much. It's familiar, has a nice sound to it and everyone knows what you're talking about when you say it. It's convenient. You know, if it isn't broken, don't fix it and all.

Yeah we are back again at the old 'they stole xmas from us'. I'll not deny that, tree, tinsel, yule log, all Pagan in origin we know all of that.

Yet 1000's of years ago them naughty Christians come along and took all of that, changed things up a bit, and concentrate coz this is the important bit, re-named it to Christmas and proclaimed it as their own.

This was sooo many years ago now that Christmas is Christian, it is about the birth of Christ. Go on go ask a few Christians.

If you want to celebrate it as something un-Christian, then why not call it by another name, or change the date, or change the practices. You know if you done that it would stop me right in my tracks, and you probably wouldn't have all these irate Christians moaning about the war on Christmas either.meh. :rolleyes:



We dont want to stop you right on your tracks. (We as in people who enjoy Christmas)
What makes you think I want to stop you right on your Tracks?

In many countries, as has been posted, it is not called Christmas.

As to why not change the name if it's no longer Christian... to most of us who celebrate it who are not Christians, the name doesn't matter all that much. It's familiar, has a nice sound to it and everyone knows what you're talking about when you say it. It's convenient. You know, if it isn't broken, don't fix it and all.

Don't forget that most christians never bothered to change the name to anything remotely sounding like christmas, yet they still manage to celebrate it all the same.

Every culture celebrates something at this time of year. If you look at it as a celebration of life and a reason to give things to the people you care about, what's hypocritcal? Christians celebrate it as the day of Christ's birth (even though he was born, if at all, at another time), Pagans celebrate it as the return of the Sun (Gee, parallel here?). Some people think that, with the short days, crappy weather and general darkness of the time of year, something needs to be done to break the monotony. I don't care why it's done. How it's done is something else - the phony charity and commercialism can be wearing. But how can you dislike brightly colored lights on a winter night or hot chocolate and well-laced eggnog? How can you dislike the music (clue, don't listen to the words if you're not Christian, it's still beautiful)? What's wrong with a feast at the darkest time of the year? And how can giving and getting thoughtful gifts vis-a-vis people you care about be bad?

If you want to complain about the commercialization of the Holiday, fine - fight it by not buying into it - give or don't give small, meaningful items.

If you want to complain about the phony charity, fight it by being charitable all year round.

Every culture celebrates something at this time of year. If you look at it as a celebration of life and a reason to give things to the people you care about, what's hypocritcal? Christians celebrate it as the day of Christ's birth (even though he was born, if at all, at another time), Pagans celebrate it as the return of the Sun (Gee, parallel here?). Some people think that, with the short days, crappy weather and general darkness of the time of year, something needs to be done to break the monotony. I don't care why it's done. How it's done is something else - the phony charity and commercialism can be wearing. But how can you dislike brightly colored lights on a winter night or hot chocolate and well-laced eggnog? How can you dislike the music (clue, don't listen to the words if you're not Christian, it's still beautiful)? What's wrong with a feast at the darkest time of the year? And how can giving and getting thoughtful gifts vis-a-vis people you care about be bad?

If you want to complain about the commercialization of the Holiday, fine - fight it by not buying into it - give or don't give small, meaningful items.

If you want to complain about the phony charity, fight it by being charitable all year round.

This is, perhaps, one of the few things I've ever agreed with you on. :p

*thunderous applause*