NationStates Jolt Archive

The rumors have it there will be 60-80 names of players guilty of steroid involvement. These players will be from the past and present and will include All Stars. So beyond the obvious McGuire,Bonds and Giambi picks what are your predictions on who will make the list?

Not sure....but I a bet more than a few will have been Yankees, since they have always had so many of the stars.

Well it won't be Babe Ruth, he was an alcoholic! *nods*

I can not fathom why an adult would care about this...

I can not fathom why an adult would care about this...

I can't fathom (or even league) why anyone would care.

I can not fathom why an adult would care about this...

Baseball fans, perhaps? Like me?

I can not fathom why an adult would care about this...

There are a lot of adults that are baseball fans. The Mitchell report affects baseball, therefore, a lot of adults would care.

I can not fathom why an adult would care about this...

I know your a smart guy, but this is a very ambiguous question. Are you asking why are there tens of millions of Baseball fans? If you accept that there are huge numbers of fans and its a hundred billion dollar business, why wouldnt said fans be concerned if a large number of thier players were suddenly removed from thier teams overnight?

I know your a smart guy, but this is a very ambiguous question. Are you asking why are there tens of millions of Baseball fans? If you accept that there are huge numbers of fans and its a hundred billion dollar business, why wouldnt said fans be concerned if a large number of thier players were suddenly removed from thier teams overnight?

True, and furthermore, why shouldn't we care about the people that are role models at the very least to our children...assuming we are all adults here.

I don't know if I am though....so maybe they are my role models.:p

I bet Roger Clemens will be on it. His success in old age has to be a result.

Mark Prior could be on it, I've heard from an orthopedic surgeon that his injuries could be related to it.

Texeira will be on it. His power numbers dropped after they started testing.

Maybe Posada

I'm hoping no White Sox players

Are you asking why are there tens of millions of Baseball fans?

I am asking why people would find entertainment in watching someone hit a ball with a stick to such a degree that it justifies paying them millions to hit that ball with that stick and to the point that they actually truly care about which group of people hits the ball with the stick best.

There are a lot of adults that are baseball fans.

I am quite aware. My point stands, I can not understand why any adult would care.

True, and furthermore, why shouldn't we care about the people that are role models at the very least to our children...

If you raise your children in such a way that they find role models in people who do nothing to better humanity, progress society in no measurable way, and, based on this, have a high propensity for drug use..you seriously need ot reevaluate the way you raise your children.

I am asking why people would find entertainment in watching someone hit a ball with a stick to such a degree that it justifies paying them millions to hit that ball with that stick and to the point that they actually truly care about which group of people hits the ball with the stick best.

Perhaps because you are not the end all arbiter of all things sporting.

We =/= you.

I bet Roger Clemens will be on it. His success in old age has to be a result.

Mark Prior could be on it, I've heard from an orthopedic surgeon that his injuries could be related to it.

Texeira will be on it. His power numbers dropped after they started testing.

Maybe Posada

I'm hoping no White Sox players

Clemens works his ass off to get ready for the season. Couple that with the fact that the past few years, he's not been playing the full season (starting late and ends up finishing early due to injury), and that's why the starts he does have are good, considering his age.

And I doubt Posada will be on it (and if he is, it will be accusations without proof).

If you raise your children in such a way that they find role models in people who do nothing to better humanity, progress society in no measurable way, and, based on this, have a high propensity for drug use..you seriously need ot reevaluate the way you raise your children.

At least baseball fills up some airtime on T.V. It's that or re-runs of the Brady Bunch.

We =/= you.

Of course not. If you find entertainment in watching someone do pointless little athletic tricks, on television no less, you most certainly don't equal me in the slightest.

I bet Roger Clemens will be on it. His success in old age has to be a result.
Nah, hes just very hard working and a freak of nature. He asks the team bus to stop 10 miles from home after an away game so he can run the rest of the way.

Maybe Posada

That would be devestating. What makes you suspect him?

Of course not. If you find entertainment in watching someone do pointless little athletic tricks, on television no less, you most certainly don't equal me in the slightest.

So, you're against all sports?

If you raise your children in such a way that they find role models in people who do nothing to better humanity, progress society in no measurable way, and, based on this, have a high propensity for drug use..you seriously need ot reevaluate the way you raise your children.

Regardless of how I raise my children, they are still going to have an effect (affect?) on our society because they are role models to some. I wouldn't raise my kids to see them as anything more than people with great skills, but even that can be enough to make kids want to at least emulate them in some ways.

Also, what sports do you find entertaining? (not trying to be rude...honestly)

Of course not. If you find entertainment in watching someone do pointless little athletic tricks, on television no less, you most certainly don't equal me in the slightest.

Oooh. OOOOOOH! I bow to your "Ivy League" wit and intellegence.

Seriously.

I would love to see Sammy Sosa's name on the list, but I doubt I will.

I would love to see Sammy Sosa's name on the list, but I doubt I will.

Racist. Joking...joking..

And I doubt Posada will be on it (and if he is, it will be accusations without proof).

I agree...Posada seems like a pretty normal dude and not really that big anyway.

Anywhoo, the only player I'm concerned about is Gary Sheffield. He was connected loosly to steroids a few years ago. I hope nothing comes up about him.

So, you're against all sports?

I'm not "against" all sports at all. I think sports are very healthy, I think they are a great way of feeling fit.

I am not against people WATCHING sports. It's their time, their money, they can do whatever the hell they want with it. It doesn't affect me, go ahead.

In fact, to some degree I can appreciate its entertainment value. People who play sports do it well, and there's something to be said for watching people perform a skill in an elegant and skillful way, much like ballet dance, there is some value in that.

What I don't get, and can not underatnd any adult caring about, is this rabit obsession with the idea of who wins and loses. I'm from boston, and when the red sox won the world series there was a fucking mob on the streets for the parade, and I just don't get it. YOU didn't win, YOU didn't contribue, YOU had nothing to do with these people winning, most of them aren't even FROM boston and are only in the city by contract.

I can't understand giving a fuck who actually wins, there's no vested interest in this, why does anyone care what happens? What's to care about?

Of course not. If you find entertainment in watching someone do pointless little athletic tricks, on television no less, you most certainly don't equal me in the slightest.

Are you asking why Romans rooted for certian Gladiators and why they cared? Are you asking why the Olympics were created and have lasted TWO THOUSAND years?Are you asking why Native American Indians had lacross games that lasted for days? Are you asking why every modern culture has physical specemines that are at thier physical peaks that cultures show off as a showcase of the limits of human bodys potential? What exactly are you asking without coming off sounding alot more stupid then i know you are? Err that last part didnt come out right but you know what i mean.

I can't understand giving a fuck who actually wins, there's no vested interest in this, why does anyone care what happens? What's to care about?

Apathy and Irony live together in perfect harmony.

Racist. Joking...joking..
I know you're joking, but come on, he was on the Cubs. How can I (a White Sox fan) not dislike Sammy Sosa?

I would jump for joy if Carlos Zambrano or Aramis Ramirez are on the list. Especially Zambrano. I hate his showboating antics and dance after every K.

My feeling is the list will mainly be players who had success after a major injury (used steroids to come back) or older players who used it to extend careers (Bonds, Palmeiro, etc)

I know you're joking, but come on, he was on the Cubs. How can I (a White Sox fan) not dislike Sammy Sosa?

I would jump for joy if Carlos Zambrano or Aramis Ramirez are on the list. Especially Zambrano. I hate his showboating antics and dance after every K.

*reads*

Yea.....no idea what you're talking about.

/neverwatchesbaseballever

I'm not "against" all sports at all. I think sports are very healthy, I think they are a great way of feeling fit.

I am not against people WATCHING sports. It's their time, their money, they can do whatever the hell they want with it. It doesn't affect me, go ahead.

In fact, to some degree I can appreciate its entertainment value. People who play sports do it well, and there's something to be said for watching people perform a skill in an elegant and skillful way, much like ballet dance, there is some value in that.

What I don't get, and can not underatnd any adult caring about, is this rabit obsession with the idea of who wins and loses. I'm from boston, and when the red sox won the world series there was a fucking mob on the streets for the parade, and I just don't get it. YOU didn't win, YOU didn't contribue, YOU had nothing to do with these people winning, most of them aren't even FROM boston and are only in the city by contract.

I can't understand giving a fuck who actually wins, there's no vested interest in this, why does anyone care what happens? What's to care about?

The thing is, people get emotionally invested in a team. That's why when the team wins, the fans get excited.

How about David Wells? Back injury, hes a maniac that seems like he would try anything...

How about David Wells? Back injury, hes a maniac that seems like he would try anything...

He sucks too much to have used steroids.

The thing is, people get emotionally invested in a team.

And, it goes back to my question, why? Why would anyone give a fuck about whether someone they don't know, who certainly as hell doesn't know them, wins a game?

And, it goes back to my question, why? Why would anyone give a fuck about whether someone they don't know, who certainly as hell doesn't know them, wins a game?

*slips on slope*

*reads*

Yea.....no idea what you're talking about.

/neverwatchesbaseballever

Partly due to their proximity, White Sox fans absolutely cannot ever like anyone that plays for the Cubs, and vise versa (they're both teams from Chicago). It's the same way Yankees and the Red Sox fans dislike the other team (although the Yankees and Red Sox are in different cities, in neighboring states).

How about David Wells? Back injury, hes a maniac that seems like he would try anything...

Unless they're stuffing steroids into doughnuts now, ....


Yes, I went there. :eek:

I really hope Sammy Sosa is on the list. Corked bat then this would be perfect. Please Santa, ive been good.

Isn't it a little...crass of us to be hoping people are on this list?

Isn't it a little...crass of us to be hoping people are on this list?

I don't know about crass, but it is pretty asinine, blundering, boorish, bovine, churlish, coarse, dense, doltish, gross, indelicate, inelegant, loutish, lowbrow, lumpish, oafish, obtuse, raw, rough, rude, stupid, uncouth, unrefined, vulgar, and possibly witless.

I dont think there is any doubt Sheffield is also on it. He is on the admitted list i think.

Isn't it a little...crass of us to be hoping people are on this list?
Nah, crass would be if we were doing a Death Pool and even then...

Also im calling out Cecil Fielder, for no good reason. Did they have steroids 10 years ago? lol

I dont think there is any doubt Sheffield is also on it. He is on the admitted list i think.

No, Sheffield admitted to using those "Upper" type (legal) drugs before MLB banned them.

Report will be out soon.

A name I'd like to throw out is Eric Gagne. He probably turned to them to cope with injuries. Just a big hunch.

Of course not. If you find entertainment in watching someone do pointless little athletic tricks, on television no less, you most certainly don't equal me in the slightest.

Oh be careful there Art, you almost fell off your high horse.

*goes back to watch Panther's Football*

Early rumors now have it that Clemens is indeed named. If so this sullies baseball more then Barry Bonds. Clemens is the undisputed best pitcher in the history of baseball. Just WOW.

Early rumors now have it that Clemens is indeed named. If so this sullies baseball more then Barry Bonds. Clemens is the undisputed best pitcher in the history of baseball. Just WOW.

I wonder how many hall of fame careers will be ruined by this. Is baseball ready to shell everyone who's ever used steroids?

Early rumors now have it that Clemens is indeed named. If so this sullies baseball more then Barry Bonds. Clemens is the undisputed best pitcher in the history of baseball. Just WOW.

Andy Pettite is going to be named as well (allegedly (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3153129)). That kind of surprises me. As much as I hate the Yanks, I've always thought that Pettite was a good guy.

I am asking why people would find entertainment in watching someone hit a ball with a stick to such a degree that it justifies paying them millions to hit that ball with that stick and to the point that they actually truly care about which group of people hits the ball with the stick best.

The same argument could easily be made for a variety of other forms of entertainment that serve no "practical" purpose. In fact, the arguments have been made--every time government cuts back the budget for the NEA.

You can oversimplify anything to make it appear moronic, but the fact is, baseball is a complicated and entertaining sport; watching it pleases people in much the same way watching a movie or reading a book may please people. I also despair for anyone who looks with contempt upon "adults" who enjoy "games"; I sincerely hope we never outgrow play.

And, it goes back to my question, why? Why would anyone give a fuck about whether someone they don't know, who certainly as hell doesn't know them, wins a game?

I'm sensing a lot of hostility here... which, if you grew up in Boston, would make sense. ;)

Why do you care about the fate of characters in a book that are not even real? I'm making the assumption here that "reading" is not beneath you as "watching sports" is; excuse me if I'm wrong. What's wrong with being excited and passionate about something, anyway? Millions of people find satisfaction and a measure of identity in their affiliation with a certain sports team.

Well, it's out.

Just glancing through it, my fears were confirmed. Sheffield is named multiple times in connetion with both BALCO and Greg Anderson.

Report HERE (http://assets.espn.go.com/media/pdf/071213/mitchell_report.pdf) (warning, PDF)

Chuck Knoblauch was named.

*lol*

Early rumors now have it that Clemens is indeed named. If so this sullies baseball more then Barry Bonds. Clemens is the undisputed best pitcher in the history of baseball. Just WOW.

Who called it last night!!!

This can go next to his 7 Cy Youngs. *

To bad some of these people will not be punished as they so richly deserved.

I called Gagne too.

My Sox are safe here!

I did a pdf search of the document the White Sox were only named six times:
Once to reference Frank Thomas. (and mentioned he was clean and was helpful to the Committee)
Once to refer to the 1919 scandal.
Once with respect to Parque. (if he was on roids, he should sue the manufacturer cause he sucked)
Twice with regard to Schoewenweis. (ditto)
Once to identify Karchner, who from what little I have read was reporting on activity w/ the Cubs.

Only two Sox players used roids while on the team and both were pitchers who sucked and spend only about a year with the club.

Obviously, the report doesn't name everyone. In fact, a large number of names are people involved with Radomski and McNamee.

And, it goes back to my question, why? Why would anyone give a fuck about whether someone they don't know, who certainly as hell doesn't know them, wins a game?

Sounds like someone was picked last to be on the team in Junior High, and still feels bitter about it.:rolleyes:

Who called it last night!!!

This can go next to his 7 Cy Youngs. *

Geez, and thats terrible too, because he is honestly a very good pitcher. What a way to screw a career over.

*snip* Only two Sox players used roids while on the team and both were pitchers who sucked and spend only about a year with the club.

I was half-expecting Thome to be on the list.

Geez, and thats terrible too, because he is honestly a very good pitcher. What a way to screw a career over.

Yeah, but if he was able to do that with the juice then is he really that great of a pitcher or was it just because of that. So much for the Cy Young.

I say Nolan Ryan was the best pitcher ever...hands down after knowing this about Clemens.

Can we place an asterik by many of the world series's that the Yankees have won since several were named in this report?

Yeah, but if he was able to do that with the juice then is he really that great of a pitcher or was it just because of that. So much for the Cy Young.

I say Nolan Ryan was the best pitcher ever...hands down after knowing this about Clemens.

Ryan has the most walks and wild pitches, if I remember correctly. Not to mention a somewhat mediocre winning percentage considering how great he was.

Can we place an asterik by many of the world series's that the Yankees have won since several were named in this report?

Many? You mean the 2000 series which would be the only world series victory even eligible to get an asterik? Might as well put an asterik next to every team that had a player who juiced (hint: this would be all of them).

Many? You mean the 2000 series which would be the only world series victory even eligible to get an asterik? Might as well put an asterik next to every team that had a player who juiced (hint: this would be all of them).

The great things is not a single person on the 2005 White Sox 40 man roster was named. The championship can't be tainted as others are. Ditto for their current roster.

The great things is not a single person on the 2005 White Sox 40 man roster was named. The championship can't be tainted as others are. Ditto for their current roster.

Do you think the list Mitchell released is comprehensive, though?

I say Nolan Ryan was the best pitcher ever...hands down after knowing this about Clemens.
Ryan was good, but he wasn't better than Whitey Ford, Catfish Hunter, Cy Young, and a few others.

Do you think the list Mitchell released is comprehensive, though?

It is what they know now. I wouldn't be surprised if follow ups reveal more names.

I really can't think of who on that team has ever been suspected of use though.

For anyone who doesnt feel like leafing through hundreds of pages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_named_in_the_Mitchell_Report

Keep in mind that there is a great deal of circumstantial evidence and the evidence for some players differs.

I remember Bill James writing in the 2000 edition of the Baseball Abstract that he suspected the amount of players taking steroids is probably closer to 5% instead of 60% because the media likes to attribute the misdeeds of a few to the greater collective. From the looks of it, that number may truly be closer to 60%, considering the wide range of players (from minor leaguers to major league stars) named in the report.

I don't know what to make of it, really. It's disappointing, yes, to know that so many players have been using performance enhancing drugs but at the same time the extent and scope of it seems to show that players had no other choice. I also wonder if baseball can really do anything with a lot of these players- to my knowledge, a lot of the misdeeds occurred when there were no regulations and/or they were "lighter", plus a lot of players used drugs that weren't on a banned substance list (like Troy Glaus and Paul Byrd did with HGH). Furthermore, I don't think any statistics are going to be wiped clean as a result of this investigation- they certainly didn't eliminate Rafael Palmeiro's statistics, did they?

Still, it's a black eye, and given baseball's continued economic parity problems (as the Johan Santana situation suggests), I don't know if there is any way back...at least for me, anyway.

I used to like Jack Cust, but now that i know he used steriods, i don't. Any one else used to like someone on the list?

I used to like Rafael Palmeiro, and I still like him today, regardless.

If any of you remeber, I posted an article earlier this year stating that the sabermaticians (the statiticians that are baseball aficianados) believed that steroids' contribution to statistical yield by players was very slim and "almost on the verge of being statistically significant." The mere fact that a good number of the players listed are not prominent leads me to believe this even more - that steroids' effect on baseball is not as clear cut as one might think.

Never understood the interest in professional sports.

I used to like Jack Cust, but now that i know he used steriods, i don't. Any one else used to like someone on the list?

I'm an A's fan, and I was sad but not surprised Cust was on the list. Personally, I don't care what stupid things people want to put in their body, but I do feel for "fringe" players like Cust and MANY others on this list who need (or feel they need) to use steroids to compete. Steroids will not make a crappy player good, but they can make the difference in an average player staying in the big leagues or double-A.

I used to like Jack Cust, but now that i know he used steriods, i don't. Any one else used to like someone on the list?I am no baseball fan..

But I was.. this report would not change a thing for me.