NationStates Jolt Archive

no this is not any anti semite thing, i just want to know what is your reason for supporting israel.
i support the palestinan cause and the people, not any one group or milita,
though i believe that hamas is the one with the biggest chance of making palestine a country, so come one every one dishup your reasons for supporting israel and how to solve the palestinan problem, who knows maybe dubya will take notice :):)

1) I don't think that Dubya reads these forums, hence the lack of zany solutions to worldwide problems

2) I personally support Israel because they've put up with so much shit over the years. On the other hand, a lot of their conduct has been utterly disgraceful, and I have sympathies with the Palestinians, too. And Lebanese, who're always the worst off.

i just want to know what is your reason for supporting israel. I support Israel because I support the the Jews wish to have their own "Jewish state".. I even support the creation of more Israels in different continents.

but I do think it was an huge UN/US/UK error to create Israel by evicting the Palestinians.. It leads to ethnic cleansing and genocide.
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i support the palestinan cause and the people..I do too.

and My support is NOT conditional to them electing a President I like.

I dont personally support Israel I also think the Hamas may prevail but the whole problem with Israel (and the reason I feel Muslims have bad feelings towards the west) is because of Americas constant interferece with affairs none of their bussiness.

No I don't.

No immediate effect on me and the society I belong to,... 'cept for this pseudo brotherhood thing that kind of annoys me to no end.

Well, it offers an easy target for terrorists that might otherwise attack my country, but considering that its existence is a cause for a lot of the terrorism, I can't really see it as a sensible thing. Too late to change it now though.

Well, it offers an easy target for terrorists that might otherwise attack my country, but considering that its existence is a cause for a lot of the terrorism, I can't really see it as a sensible thing. Too late to change it now though.

not yet if they allow the Palestinians to have independence and control over Jerusalem

I support Israel because there is no realistic alternative, and because the Jewish people have a claim to Jerusalem many centuries older than Muslims. Ideologically because Israel is surrounded by Islamists and they want to tighten the noose. I respect Israel because its willing to take a stand against terrorism. Also, because Israel is the underpuppy that fights like a German Shepherd.

I don't support Israel. They forged a homeland in the middle of a land of innocent Palestinians saying that this land was given to them by God. That's just like me becoming the POTUS and invading Europe because it God gave it to Americans.

Also, can you say genocide?

This problem could have been avoided by dumping the Jews on Antarctica instead of in the Middle East. And it would have been funny watching them fight against the penguins. :p

I don't support Israel. They forged a homeland in the middle of a land of innocent Palestinians saying that this land was given to them by God. That's just like me becoming the POTUS and invading Europe because it God gave it to Americans.
Not really. They were given that land by the UN, inside the British Mandate of Palestine where they'd already been settling since the 1920s, and to be honest, where a large Jewish population has always lived.

It was as much the Isreali homeland as the Palestinian one, they just hadn't mainly been living there for a few decades.
Also, can you say genocide?
Of whom, exactly?

I support Israel in general, but I also think that its creation was a mistake. Forcibly evicting a large region of massive religious significance to the native inhabitants is bound to end with disaster, and the constant fighting that takes headlines weekly is a consequence of that.

However, now that it does exist, it's far too late to pretend we can take back its creation - that would lead to an even bigger mess. I think the best that can be done is to turn Jerusalem over to a neutral arbiter (perhaps the UN) and ensure that there is an access corridor to it from the surrounding Islamic nations.

Frankly, however, I doubt any of the nations involved are willing to share.

Not really. They were given that land by the UN, inside the British Mandate of Palestine where they'd already been settling since the 1920s, and to be honest, where a large Jewish population has always lived.

It was as much the Isreali homeland as the Palestinian one, they just hadn't mainly been living there for a few decades.

The UN doesn't have the right to create a state in a place where the majority of the people don't want one. If the UN had that right, then it'd be the God of the World instead of the [impotent] government of the World.

Also, the Jews were being forced there by the British because too many were migrating to Britain during WWII.

The creation is Israel is similar to the creation of the USA. The people there were forced to give up their land, Britain eventually colonized the land, and eventually the people got their independence with the natives getting screwed over ultimately.

Of whom, exactly?

Palestinians.

no this is not any anti semite thing, i just want to know what is your reason for supporting israel.
i support the palestinan cause and the people, not any one group or milita,
though i believe that hamas is the one with the biggest chance of making palestine a country, so come one every one dishup your reasons for supporting israel and how to solve the palestinan problem, who knows maybe dubya will take notice :):)

I support Israel because they have the right to have there own nation... After all the persecution they have experienced for centuries its only fair... And I don't give a crab about the arguement about that Israel has taken land from the palestinians... making a new country always means that another country must give up some of its lands and it has always been like that..

And the palestinians, allthough I can see how annoying this is and unfair it most seem, should get on with their lives and groups like Hamas and Fatah should stop harassing their neighbors and their own people and try to build stable and decent state..

I put it like this, Israel belongs to the Jews. Muslims know this too. Abraham gave the land to the son from his wife, not the son from his concubine. It is wrong how Israel was created after WWII and how they treat Arabs that are there, but it is still their land.

The UN doesn't have the right to create a state in a place where the majority of the people don't want one. If the UN had that right, then it'd be the God of the World instead of the [impotent] government of the World.
It did when after world war 2, when everyone was feeling pretty guilty about the Holocaust.
Also, the Jews were being forced there by the British because too many were migrating to Britain during WWII.
Err, no, what happened was that we let them in after Kristalnacht, and then said 'why don't you go to Israel' after the state there was created, basically so that their welfare wasn't our problem.

We took in refugees from all over when the war actually started, it was just the period in the mid-1930s when we were (understandably, at the time) sending people back.
The creation is Israel is similar to the creation of the USA. The people there were forced to give up their land, Britain eventually colonized the land, and eventually the people got their independence with the natives getting screwed over ultimately.
Erm, no it isn't.

'Britain' didn't colonise the US, protestants who felt hard done by in their own countries were the people that went there, see the Dutch, some French, some Spanish etc.

Oh, sorry, I mean "Britain is the route cause of everything wrong in the world". There you go. Enjoy your stupid little black-and-white universe, squire.
Palestinians.
Genocide my arse.

I don't support Israel. They forged a homeland in the middle of a land of innocent Palestinians saying that this land was given to them by God. That's just like me becoming the POTUS and invading Europe because it God gave it to Americans.

Also, can you say genocide?

Jayate, no offense, but your history of Israel is just a little bit warped. What happened was that the UN proposed a two-state solution, half Jewish and half Palestinian, with Jerusalem as an international city. The Jews accepted it, but the Palestinians unanimously rejected it. In spite of this, they went through with it anyway. As soon as the British left, the Jewish part was attacked by six Arab nations. The Jews fought off the Arabs and then conquered the part of Israel given to the Palestinians.

Israel then won two more wars in later years. In the Six-Day-War, Egypt denied Israel access to the Suez canal and massed troops on the Egyptian/Israeli border. This was an act of war, even though the first battle was a pre-emptive strike by Israel. As a result of this war, Israel ended up occupying the Golan Heights, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip (which was given recently to the palestinians), and the entire Sinai Peninsula up to the Suez Canal, which was given back to the Egyptians.

Then there was the Yom-Kippur war, in which Israel was surprise-attacked by multiple neighboring Arab nations. Israel won this war too.

And what do you mean by "can you say genocide?" Your "genocide" is a sick machination of your imagination. Israelis never have and never will attempt a whole-sale slaughter of Palestinians. They have never killed Palestinians for the sake of killing, only for defense.

Israel never invaded anywhere. They gained territory in wars started by the Arabs.

I've been to Israel. In fact, when I was in Jersualem, I walked through the Arab quarter multiple times, and I saw the Dome of the Rock when I was praying at the Western Wall. There are no Israeli soldiers opressing Arabs on the streets. I admit to tight security and racial profiling, but no cruelty whatsoever.

The Israelis didn't "take" anything from the Palestinians. To put it in your terms, they won it "fair and square."

In my view, both sides have committed atrocities and are completely unreasonable. Israel should be forced to recognize the original borders of Palestine defined by the UN or they lose their foreign aid/ western support and the Palestinian state should be given foreign aid on the condition they do their best to deter terrorism. Of course, it isn't as easy as just saying "stop it you guys!" or the problem would be solved by now.

I support Israel in general, but I also think that its creation was a mistake. Forcibly evicting a large region of massive religious significance to the native inhabitants is bound to end with disaster, and the constant fighting that takes headlines weekly is a consequence of that.

However, now that it does exist, it's far too late to pretend we can take back its creation - that would lead to an even bigger mess. I think the best that can be done is to turn Jerusalem over to a neutral arbiter (perhaps the UN) and ensure that there is an access corridor to it from the surrounding Islamic nations.

Frankly, however, I doubt any of the nations involved are willing to share.

You seem to be assuming that Palestinians just want access to Jerusalem, though. Palestinians want a Palestinian state, same way Israelis want to maintain an Israeli state and most of their actions has been towards that end (regardless of if you agree with the "how" or not).

I support Israel because, well, it's there and it's simply asinine to think that it would be morally appropriate to set up a situation where Israelis would be either (A) evicted or (B) killed, which would happen if Israel suddenly became Palestine. I don't really think that needs further explanation, common sense with a rudimentary understanding of history and contemporary politics should make that abundantly clear. On the other hand, Israel's treatment of Palestinians is fucking abysmal. What I would like to see happen is a dropping of his de jur Jewish homeland nonsense. Israel can remain the de facto Jewish homeland, but, institutionally, it should keep out of all this religious-cultural nonsense and give completely equal representation to "Palestinians", who would, at this point, be Israelis, I guess.

Oh, and Hebrew and Arabic should be taught side-by-side in schools. The majority of Israeli and Palestinian youth can barely fucking communicate with each other, and we expect them to work out their problems? That's completely absurd. There has to be some fostering of Israeli-Palestinian dialog on a basic social level, not just Camp David wankery. Honestly, I see Israel as what could be the most social progressive nation in that region, if it'd only take the right steps. It has an academic, diplomatic (with the West) and, in some ways, cultural foundation that surrounding countries don't that could easily allow it to become the progressive country it should be. Honestly, it just frustrates me to even think about it.

I don't support Israel.

what do you mean by "support?" I mean its all fine to say i support israel or palastinia when you live on the other side of the planet and basically doing nothing to supporting them then just saying: "i agree" It is like asking which warring tribal faction in Darfur do you support...


i live too far away to be directly involved with it and basically the whole ordeal is a never ending conflict that prolly won't end soon. So i am going to stick with: I am supporting the winner

The UN doesn't have the right to create a state in a place where the majority of the people don't want one. If the UN had that right, then it'd be the God of the World instead of the [impotent] government of the World.

Also, the Jews were being forced there by the British because too many were migrating to Britain during WWII.

The creation is Israel is similar to the creation of the USA. The people there were forced to give up their land, Britain eventually colonized the land, and eventually the people got their independence with the natives getting screwed over ultimately.



Palestinians.

You are incorrect on a number of issues.

First, while the UN signed off on it, the creation of a Jewish state actually owes more to Britain. They were in occupation of the land at the time, and were the legitimate government - which does, in fact, give them the right to partition it as they chose.

However, far from "forcing" Jews to go to Palestine, Britain's policies for quite a while were in OPPOSITION to the creation of a Jewish state. Only when the population blew out and it was clear that they were fighting a losing battle did they change that policy.

Lastly, the Jewish settlers did not perpetrate and have not since attempted the crime of genocide. Their actions could, reasonably, be called by the new crime of ethnic cleansing - but only in the last few decades, well since those days, has that been considered a crime.

As to the Op:

I don't really support Israel. However, neither do I support "correcting" previous injustices - primarily because, they never actually do correct the injustice named, invariably perpetrate new injustices against the innocent, and never actually solve any of the problems the original injustice caused.

I also consider that in a war situation, the aggressor is usually the one in the wrong. Not necessarilly the initiator of hostilities - I do not require a nation to sit back and wait to be hit by the first punch, that's stupid. And Israel has never been the aggressor in the wars it has fought.

Finally, I look at who has striven to take lives, and who has sought to save them. Israel is not innocent, and nor am I - I fully acknowledge that Israel has done some very morally questionable and occasionally brutal acts. But when one side seeks security, and the other seeks murder, I know where I stand.

Israel then won two more wars in later years. In the Six-Day-War, Egypt denied Israel access to the Suez canal and massed troops on the Egyptian/Israeli border. This was an act of war, even though the first battle was a pre-emptive strike by Israel. As a result of this war, Israel ended up occupying the Golan Heights, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip (which was given recently to the palestinians), and the entire Sinai Peninsula up to the Suez Canal, which was given back to the Egyptians.

Then there was the Yom-Kippur war, in which Israel was surprise-attacked by multiple neighboring Arab nations. Israel won this war too.

Umm, sorry about this, but the Sinai Peninsula was taken back by Egypt after Yom-Kippur, and Israel didn't win it either, it was stalemated and the UN called for a cease-fire and to ensure that powers that be (The US and The USSR) told them to behave (... something about -ahem- a nuclear scare).

The Egyptians won their pride back along with their territories, and in return they gave Israel their recognition and normalized diplomatic channels, of course because of this Egypt was thrown out of the Arab League.

The war had a stunning effect on the population in Israel. Following their victory in the Six-Day War, the Israeli military had become complacent. The shock and sudden defeats that occurred at the beginning of the war sent a terrible psychological blow to the Israelis, who had thought they had military supremacy in the region.[51] However, in time, they began to realize what an astounding, almost unprecedented, turnaround they had achieved: "Reeling from a surprise attack on two fronts with the bulk of its army still unmobilized, and confronted by staggering new battlefield realities, Israel's situation was one that could readily bring strong nations to their knees. Yet, within days, it had regained its footing and within less than two weeks it was threatening both enemy capitals, an achievement having few historical parallels." In Israel, however, the casualty rate was high. Per capita, Israel suffered three times as many casualties in 3 weeks of fighting as the United States did during almost a decade of fighting in Vietnam.[52]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War#Fallout_in_Israel

Also, the Jews were being forced there by the British because too many were migrating to Britain during WWII.

What about the Jewish foundations dedicated to buying land their, and slowing moving back home? Tel Aviv was built on land bought by them, land bought with hundreds of tiny donations.

Israel is surrounded by brutal, feudal societies that wish to see its demise, deny the existence of the holocaust and desire another, regularly attack it in groups on Yom Kippur none the less!

Israel is a free state, and the alternative is very much undesirable. In the west, women have affairs when they get stoned. In Saudi Arabia, women get stoned when they have affairs.

This isn't to say I don't have sympathy with the Palestinians. I sincerely wish the Israelis wouldn't go around bulldozing their houses and the like.

But Palestine has received more aid from America than was given to all of Europe in the Marshall plan. In real terms. While this doesn't excuse oppression, it does show that they have hardly been oppressed by the west. Indeed, one would have expected any other nation to do well with such a lot of money to such a small area. In fact, if they weren't so anti-Semitic, there would be some great trade opportunities available with Israel.


Hamas regularly fires rockets at random into southern Israel, at civilian targets, whereas the Israelis at least aim for military targets. They don't invade unless provoked by people attacking them en masse (like an army or three) or kidnapping their soldiers. And they run a state, against great opposition, much better than anyone else in the reason.

And anyway- we've been oppressing the Jews for thousands of years. The desire a chance to absolutely woop and army the rest of the region can send at them!

I support what was said above, which is complete equality between the two sides and an end to this "two sides" nonsense. Supporting either side is rediculous.

The Sinai Peninsula was given back after the Yom Kippur war because the Egyptians didn't make a peace agreement with the Egyptians until after the Yom Kippur war. And I never said when it was given back, btw.

Also, the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israelis isn't abysmal. The rare events that the media shows are abysmal. Israel does bad things sometimes, I admit. But Palestinians blow themselves up and kill hundreds of Israelis. No one seems to care about that though.

How about the rockets fired at Israel last summer? One of the types of rockets was filled with steel balls which would fly in every direction when they hit the ground. I saw a place where one of those hit. It was horrible. There were signs turned into Swiss cheese and balls embedded in the concrete of the bridge the missile landed under. You can all imagine what happened to the people standing in that area when it happened. No one seems to care about that either.

People need to stop trusting the media so much. They only show what they can make money off of.

no this is not any anti semite thing, i just want to know what is your reason for supporting israel.
i support the palestinan cause and the people, not any one group or milita,
though i believe that hamas is the one with the biggest chance of making palestine a country, so come one every one dishup your reasons for supporting israel and how to solve the palestinan problem, who knows maybe dubya will take notice :):)
What Palestinian problem? Why does anything ahppening there warrant our interference?

People need to stop trusting the media so much. They only show what they can make money off of.

Right and in Denmark we have a group of particular anti israeli politicians who always seems to be the first the media goes to for reactions on how israel behaves.. it make me sick :mad:

I put it like this, Israel belongs to the Jews. Muslims know this too. Abraham gave the land to the son from his wife, not the son from his concubine. It is wrong how Israel was created after WWII and how they treat Arabs that are there, but it is still their land.
Oh please... :rolleyes:

Also, the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israelis isn't abysmal. The rare events that the media shows are abysmal. Israel does bad things sometimes, I admit. But Palestinians blow themselves up and kill hundreds of Israelis. No one seems to care about that though.

Actually, I'm speaking of how Palestinian, and Israeli Arabs in general, are treated as second class citizens. It isn't entirely unjustified, given the situation, however to fix that situation, this treatment needs to be fixed. While there are the rare occasions a bunch of Palestinian civilians are killed by Israeli soldiers, it's still a relatively rare occurrence. On the other hand, Israel does many "small" bad things to Palestinians on a daily basis, and does little to address certain social/cultural ills.

Be assured, I do care about the suicide bombings, rocket attacks and various other criminal activities that Arab terrorist groups commit against Israel. I have relatives from Israel (though, they've since moved to the States) so it isn't like I'm completely unaware of what Israelis go through. But sometimes fixing a bad situation comes with a little bit of risk.

When I get to choose too support either a nuclear armed terrorist state stealing land and using apartheid laws in their brutal occupation Palestinian land or theNational Resistance of Palestine trying too drive foreigners out of their country, I'll choose the 2nd alternative every time.

And dont try to pull the bible rabbit out of your hat cause if all people would be allowed too use claims more then a thousand years old the Romans should have half Europe, USA wouldnt exist, and my country wouldnt exist of anything more then a bunch of barbaric tribes.

I put it like this, Israel belongs to the Jews. Muslims know this too. Abraham gave the land to the son from his wife, not the son from his concubine. It is wrong how Israel was created after WWII and how they treat Arabs that are there, but it is still their land.

Everyone has a biblical claim the Israel. I'm Jewish and I agree that it was given to the Jews. I also think that the bible says we can kill rebellious children. Lots of stuff in the bible is obsolete. It doesn't matter now that it was given to us 3000 years ago.

When I get to choose too support either a nuclear armed terrorist state stealing land and using apartheid laws in their brutal occupation Palestinian land or theNational Resistance of Palestine trying too drive foreigners out of their country, I'll choose the 2nd alternative every time.

And dont try to pull the bible rabbit out of your hat cause if all people would be allowed too use claims more then a thousand years old the Romans should have half Europe, USA wouldnt exist, and my country wouldnt exist of anything more then a bunch of barbaric tribes.

Out of curiosity, what do you consider the historical "limit" to land claims? How is a claim two generations old more or less justified than a claim 50 generations old? Honest question, as the quoted statement seems to be a fairly common view, and I'd like to understand the underlying logic behind it.

And saying that Palestinians kill more Israelis then Israelis kill Palestinians is utterly ignorant as there dies 7 Palestinians for every Israeli dying.

I support Israel because all of the countries around them are pretty much trying to destroy them. If the US doesn't help them then nobody will. And if Israel is destroyed then the next Target will be the US. On the matter of questionable acts against Muslims in the area, look at what happened earlier in the year with the rocket attacks, not to mention all of the suicide bombings in the area. Israel has a right to defend it self by any means

I support Israel because all of the countries around them are pretty much trying to destroy them. If the US doesn't help them then nobody will. And if Israel is destroyed then the next Target will be the US. On the matter of questionable acts against Muslims in the area, look at what happened earlier in the year with the rocket attacks, not to mention all of the suicide bombings in the area. Israel has a right to defend it self by any means

That circular reasoning also can be used to justify Arabs/Palestinians who were just defending their right of land/home.

I disagree with Israel in its current form since the idea of a state with openly racial/religious discriminationary policies goes against my principles.

While Israel is generally a lot better than most of the middle east it depends on the community, the hardline orthodox areas are still quite backward.

I support Israel because all of the countries around them are pretty much trying to destroy them. If the US doesn't help them then nobody will. And if Israel is destroyed then the next Target will be the US. On the matter of questionable acts against Muslims in the area, look at what happened earlier in the year with the rocket attacks, not to mention all of the suicide bombings in the area. Israel has a right to defend it self by any means
No, that's also bollocks. Their actions have been completely unjustifiable at times.

Israel's the only functioning Western democracy in the Middle East and it grants its people far more civil and personal freedoms than any other country in the region. It is a role model for the Arab states when it comes to moving towards democracy, economic development and personal freedom.

Mind you, my support of Israel is not blind. When they do something wrong, they deserve to be treated like any other nation guilty of wrongdoing.

Everyone has a biblical claim the Israel. I'm Jewish and I agree that it was given to the Jews. I also think that the bible says we can kill rebellious children. Lots of stuff in the bible is obsolete. It doesn't matter now that it was given to us 3000 years ago.

I know that everyone seems to have a claim on this land even Christians do but I believe that Jewish people deserve it because of the Holocaust.

When I get to choose too support either a nuclear armed terrorist state stealing land and using apartheid laws in their brutal occupation Palestinian land or theNational Resistance of Palestine trying too drive foreigners out of their country, I'll choose the 2nd alternative every time..

so you would rather support the people who call themselves "freedom fighters" and does this by blowing up school busses, bars, cafe's, and other public areas filled with civilians.... And muslims treats christians and jews any better than israel treats the arabs? when did you last visit the real world?

The Dome of the Rock mosque is build on the ruined foundation of the most holy jewish temple... and now the muslims get angry when jews visit this temple... oh they are soooo tolerant these muslims :rolleyes: (Not refering to all muslims, only the fanatics)

Actually, I'm speaking of how Palestinian, and Israeli Arabs in general, are treated as second class citizens. It isn't entirely unjustified, given the situation, however to fix that situation, this treatment needs to be fixed. While there are the rare occasions a bunch of Palestinian civilians are killed by Israeli soldiers, it's still a relatively rare occurrence. On the other hand, Israel does many "small" bad things to Palestinians on a daily basis, and does little to address certain social/cultural ills.

Be assured, I do care about the suicide bombings, rocket attacks and various other criminal activities that Arab terrorist groups commit against Israel. I have relatives from Israel (though, they've since moved to the States) so it isn't like I'm completely unaware of what Israelis go through. But sometimes fixing a bad situation comes with a little bit of risk.

Look, neither of us is a Palestinian, and neither of us can speak for them. It's not okay that the Israelis treat the Palestinians that live in occupied territories such as the West Bank as second class citizens. I can assure you though that the ones that live in Israel, like the ones in Jerusalem, have full rights. This isn't a right/wrong kind of thing like how the treatment of African Americans in the US was entirely unacceptable before the and during the Civil Rights Movement.

This is a safety vs equality argument. Did you know that for a long time, the Israelis weren't even allowed to retaliate against suicide bombings?

I know that everyone seems to have a claim on this land even Christians do but I believe that Jewish people deserve it because of the Holocaust.

... more circular reasoning.

You know, this line has been used a lot of time, I think the person who invented them should be payed royalties.

I know that everyone seems to have a claim on this land even Christians do but I believe that Jewish people deserve it because of the Holocaust.

All Jews deserve some land because some Germans oppressed them among several other groups? Why only them?

No, that's also bollocks. Their actions have been completely unjustifiable at times.

While you think that it is evil, keeping Muslims out, is the only way to keep out suicide bombers unfortunately. Unless you know of another way I think that what they are doing now is acceptable.

I know that everyone seems to have a claim on this land even Christians do but I believe that Jewish people deserve it because of the Holocaust.

We deserve it because we won it in war. What we deserve from the Holocaust is an end to anti-semitism, which is never going to happen before the Messiah comes (or until the Messiah comes a second time, for those of you out there who believe the Messiah has already come.).

Out of curiosity, what do you consider the historical "limit" to land claims? How is a claim two generations old more or less justified than a claim 50 generations old? Honest question, as the quoted statement seems to be a fairly common view, and I'd like to understand the underlying logic behind it.






How did a 2000 year old land claim become a 2 generations old land claim?
What you should be asking is if a two thousand year old is more morally justified then a 40 year old.
And the fact is that the world has developed quite alot since the 30 AD and I think that a modern time claim should be totally justified while a claim dating back from the classical times and the notion of a jewish state being forbidden in the same book is kind of stupid and is NOT justified.

While you think that it is evil, keeping Muslims out, is the only way to keep out suicide bombers unfortunately. Unless you know of another way I think that what they are doing now is acceptable.



Welll obviously keeping muslims out of their homeland havent worked as therre are suicide bombings in response too Israeli air-strikes and occupations.

Thank you that is exactly right Absiv.

While you think that it is evil, keeping Muslims out, is the only way to keep out suicide bombers unfortunately. Unless you know of another way I think that what they are doing now is acceptable.

For one, acknowledge that the Palestinian had a right to be there, if their "freedom" is a security risk, then make it into an interim protectorate-ship until they can normalize diplomatic channels.

But then again, I'm being optimistic.

How did a 2000 year old land claim become a 2 generations old?
What you should be asking is if a two thousand year old is more morally justified then a 40 year old.
And the fact is that the world has developed quite alot since the 30 AD and I think that a modern time claim should be totally justified while a claim dating back from the classical times and the notion of a jewish state being forbidden in the same book is kind of stupid and is NOT justified.

The Jewish claim to the land is 2000 years old. The 2 generations old claim is the Palestinian claim. Regardless to claims to the land, Israel was given half of it by the UN and won the other half in a war of self-defense (as odd as that sounds).

Thank you that is exactly right Absiv.

Yes

Welll obviously keeping muslims out of their homeland havent worked as therre are suicide bombings in response too Israeli air-strikes and occupations.

Well the Israeli government is doing the best they can in a hostile environment. Also I feel sorry for anyone actually living in Israel

The Jewish claim to the land is 2000 years old. The 2 generations old claim is the Palestinian claim. Regardless to claims to the land, Israel was given half of it by the UN and won the other half in a war of self-defense (as odd as that sounds).


First of all the UN can do things wrong.
2nd of all it wasnt self-defence as they declared independence in another nations terrirory whit the majority not wanting a jewish state and then ethnically cleansing the main population that lived there.

... oh... I think I've just wasted my time arguing with types like MTAE or F'n'G,...

Oh well, lesson learned.

I support Israel for a multitude of reasons, some have to do with Israel and its people directly, and some have to do with the Palestinians.

Firstly, the nation of Israel exists by U.N. Charter. That's prettymuch as close to a worldwide consensus as it gets. I don't know how many nations have been built this way, but one could make a case for that method being stronger than many others out there. Why is the USA a country? Because we beat up on enough other people to build it ourselves. If the USA has a right to exist so does Israel.

Second, It's one of the few stable countries in the region. It also happens to be friendly to us. When 9/11 took place, Israel was the ONLY country to send teams to help with disaster relief. We probably didn't really need it, but the gesture spoke volumes.

You want to talk about Palestinians? Those poor, oppressed people? Ok let's talk about them.

The Palestinians are currently the only group of people living on International welfare. The USA has contributed more money to the maintanence of the Palestinian people than all of the Arab nations combined.

The result? An entire group of people who are led by zealots who would rather use that money to smuggle in weapons than to build infrastructure. (Of course, if they used the money constructively, then they'd have an awfully hard time playing the victim to Israel's "oppression.")

Peple raise a fit whenever a single Israeli soldier picks up a weapon to defend his home. Frankly, with the number and frequency of Hamas attacks on Israeli citizens, I can understand why the military is so jittery. The rest of us have it easy, we can't know what it's like to live like that. NYC and Washington got a taste of it on 9/11/01. Now just imagine living in a place where it's almost commonplace for a bus or cafe to explode out from under you.

I'm sorry but whatever sympathy I had for the Palestinian situation evaporated when I saw footage of Palestinians cheering and celebrating as the World Trade Center fell. (They showed that clip a couple times before it became politically incorrect.)

Israel has had to defend itself from multiple invasions and attacks and is still there, strong as ever. I respect that.

Thank you Neo Bretonnia for saying correctly what I apparently have failed to say.

... more circular reasoning.

You know, this line has been used a lot of time, I think the person who invented them should be payed royalties.


Racism against Jewish people doesn't start at the time of the holocaust. It has been going on since before the Roman empire. And through all this time the Jewish people are still in existence which I applaud them for.

I'm sorry but whatever sympathy I had for the Palestinian situation evaporated when I saw footage of Palestinians cheering and celebrating as the World Trade Center fell. (They showed that clip a couple times before it became politically incorrect.)


[Court Fact Checker] Claim that CNN faked Palestinian cheers

Shortly after the attacks, CNN showed footage of Palestinians cheering. Some reported that this was old footage taken out of context. This claim is false. The demonstrations did happen and were condemned by Arafat; the footage was current. [5]

There was indeed some footage that was staged, but it was actually shot by a Palestinian camera crew. The footage is of some cheering children and a middle aged woman eating cookies. Reporters from Der Stern and Dagens Nyheter managed to trace down and interview the woman and she claimed to have no knowledge of the attack at the time she was filmed. [/Court Fact Checker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumors_about_the_September_11,_2001_attacks#Claim_that_CNN_faked_Palestinian_cheers

^_^

I support Israel for a multitude of reasons, some have to do with Israel and its people directly, and some have to do with the Palestinians.

Firstly, the nation of Israel exists by U.N. Charter. That's prettymuch as close to a worldwide consensus as it gets. I don't know how many nations have been built this way, but one could make a case for that method being stronger than many others out there. Why is the USA a country? Because we beat up on enough other people to build it ourselves. If the USA has a right to exist so does Israel.

Second, It's one of the few stable countries in the region. It also happens to be friendly to us. When 9/11 took place, Israel was the ONLY country to send teams to help with disaster relief. We probably didn't really need it, but the gesture spoke volumes.

You want to talk about Palestinians? Those poor, oppressed people? Ok let's talk about them.

The Palestinians are currently the only group of people living on International welfare. The USA has contributed more money to the maintanence of the Palestinian people than all of the Arab nations combined.

The result? An entire group of people who are led by zealots who would rather use that money to smuggle in weapons than to build infrastructure. (Of course, if they used the money constructively, then they'd have an awfully hard time playing the victim to Israel's "oppression.")

Peple raise a fit whenever a single Israeli soldier picks up a weapon to defend his home. Frankly, with the number and frequency of Hamas attacks on Israeli citizens, I can understand why the military is so jittery. The rest of us have it easy, we can't know what it's like to live like that. NYC and Washington got a taste of it on 9/11/01. Now just imagine living in a place where it's almost commonplace for a bus or cafe to explode out from under you.

I'm sorry but whatever sympathy I had for the Palestinian situation evaporated when I saw footage of Palestinians cheering and celebrating as the World Trade Center fell. (They showed that clip a couple times before it became politically incorrect.)

Israel has had to defend itself from multiple invasions and attacks and is still there, strong as ever. I respect that.




But they dont have a valid claim so they are not defending but attacking the palestinians are the ones defending their homes.
USA has contributed more money to Israel then the rest of the WORLD combined if anyone is living on "welfare" its the Israelis.
And Israel dont defend themselves as their state is Illegal all those "attacks" on Israel are attempts too drive occupiers out of arab land.
And how di the UN get the right too give somebody Elses land away.

Racism against Jewish people doesn't start at the time of the holocaust. It has been going on since before the Roman empire. And through all this time the Jewish people are still in existence which I applaud them for.

This is true, anti-semitism is older than Christianity. I'm Jewish and I need to put up with it on a daily basis.

While you think that it is evil, keeping Muslims out, is the only way to keep out suicide bombers unfortunately. Unless you know of another way I think that what they are doing now is acceptable.
How's about not treating them like shit, so they get less upset?

I was also referring to their various actions in 1948/49 which basically just involved going on a massive rampage in the Palestinian areas, the airstrike assassinations, which do nothing but create martyrs, and some of the more brutal actions in the Gaza strip.

They ought to just make Israel international territory that is owned by the UN that way nobody could fight over who controls Israel and Jerusalem

I support Israel for a multitude of reasons, some have to do with Israel and its people directly, and some have to do with the Palestinians.

Firstly, the nation of Israel exists by U.N. Charter. That's prettymuch as close to a worldwide consensus as it gets. I don't know how many nations have been built this way, but one could make a case for that method being stronger than many others out there. Why is the USA a country? Because we beat up on enough other people to build it ourselves. If the USA has a right to exist so does Israel.

Second, It's one of the few stable countries in the region. It also happens to be friendly to us. When 9/11 took place, Israel was the ONLY country to send teams to help with disaster relief. We probably didn't really need it, but the gesture spoke volumes.

You want to talk about Palestinians? Those poor, oppressed people? Ok let's talk about them.


The result? An entire group of people who are led by zealots who would rather use that money to smuggle in weapons than to build infrastructure. (Of course, if they used the money constructively, then they'd have an awfully hard time playing the victim to Israel's "oppression.")




I'm sorry but whatever sympathy I had for the Palestinian situation evaporated when I saw footage of Palestinians cheering and celebrating as the World Trade Center fell. (They showed that clip a couple times before it became politically incorrect.)

Israel has had to defend itself from multiple invasions and attacks and is still there, strong as ever. I respect that.

Part of Israel exists due to UN charter the rest they took by conquest, which has become unacceptable in the modern world. Self-determination of the existing population is the generally the only acceptable justification for a country's existence.

Then you recast the Israelis as occupiers and the US as funding those occupiers and it becomes a lot more understandable. These are not people with access to a wide range of media sources etc etc. They know what they are told. All about perspective. (playing Devil's advocate here).

The Palestinians are currently the only group of people living on International welfare. The USA has contributed more money to the maintanence of the Palestinian people than all of the Arab nations combined.

And?


Peple raise a fit whenever a single Israeli soldier picks up a weapon to defend his home. Frankly, with the number and frequency of Hamas attacks on Israeli citizens, I can understand why the military is so jittery. The rest of us have it easy, we can't know what it's like to live like that. NYC and Washington got a taste of it on 9/11/01. Now just imagine living in a place where it's almost commonplace for a bus or cafe to explode out from under you.
Probably a similar experience for Palestinian civilians.

This is true, anti-semitism is older than Christianity. I'm Jewish and I need to put up with it on a daily basis.

And what do you think the Palestinians have too put up with? bullets in their home, Curfew,being shoot at,being beaten by Israeli settlers,being harassed by Jewish Settlers, getting their homes razed and KILLED

And btw there was a partof the world were Anti-semitism didnt exist .. can you guess what part? Yes thats right the Middle East.

But they dont have a valid claim so they are not defending but attacking the palestinians are the ones defending their homes.
USA has contributed more money to Israel then the rest of the WORLD combined if anyone is living on "welfare" its the Israelis.
And Israel dont defend themselves as their state is Illegal all those "attacks" on Israel are attempts too drive occupiers out of arab land.

Actually, Israel has a valid claim to the land, seeing as they were given it by the UN and also won it in war.

3 times.

Neo Bretonnia is right, Khanat horde. Arabs in Israel live are given US aid, and live better than many Arabs in the surrounding area.

By your logic, the US is illegal. The US won its independence (with help from other countries) in the Revolutionary War. Should we give it back to the British? It was theirs! They colonized it! They built the cities and lived there! Should we return it to them?

They ought to just make Israel international territory that is owned by the UN that way nobody could fight over who controls Israel and Jerusalem
"Veto"

Actually, Israel has a valid claim to the land, seeing as they were given it by the UN and also won it in war.

3 times.

Neo Bretonnia is right, Khanat horde. Arabs in Israel live are given US aid, and live better than many Arabs in the surrounding area.

By your logic, the US is illegal. The US won its independence (with help from other countries) in the Revolutionary War. Should we give it back to the British? It was theirs! They colonized it! They built the cities and lived there! Should we return it to them?


No cause the majority wantedindependence as in Israel the majority DIDNT want Independence and how can you use the UN charter of recognising Israel while not wanting Israel to follow the resolutions that tries to protect the palestinians.

AND ONCE AGAIN HOW DID THE UN GET THE RIGHT TOO GIVE SOMEBODY ELSES LAND AWAY??????????????

and BTW Good Night ( different time zone....)

"Veto"

What if the Muslims and the Jews can't share power then nobody should be allowed to have Israel. Just that Simple

its only 4:00 where i am :)

And what do you think the Palestinians have too put up with? bullets in their home, Curfew,being shoot at,being beaten by Israeli settlers,being harassed by Jewish Settlers, getting their homes razed and KILLED

And btw there was a partof the world were Anti-semitism didnt exist .. can you guess what part? Yes thats right the Middle East.

Israelis don't shoot Palestinians in their homes. I don't know about any sort of curfew, but I'm not going to debate about the curfew. Do you know when the Israelis shoot (usually an intentional miss, as a threat)? When the Palestinians hurl rocks at their heads! Palestinians were NEVER beaten or harrassed by Israeli settlers. They never had their homes razed (except on one occasion in which Israelis bulldozed Arab homes in front of the Western Wall to clear out a larger portion of it, which was both ILLEGAL and WRONG but nonetheless happened.)

I don't know where you learned your history of Israel, but you didn't learn a correct one.

AND ONCE AGAIN HOW DID THE UN GET THE RIGHT TOO GIVE SOMEBODY ELSES LAND AWAY??????????????

and BTW Good Night ( different time zone....)

The British LEFT the land. They agreed to giving it away.

What if the Muslims and the Jews can't share power then nobody should be allowed to have Israel. Just that Simple
...

What're you going to do, irradiate it so that anyone coming within 20km of the previous Israel dies horribly?

It's pretty good land, which is why people fight so much over it.

Part of Israel exists due to UN charter the rest they took by conquest, which has become unacceptable in the modern world. Self-determination of the existing population is the generally the only acceptable justification for a country's existence.

It's important to note, however, that it was land they took by conquest after a group of countries launched a completely unjustified war of aggression against them.

However, the truth is, the world as it existed in 1948 was not the same as it is today; using modern concepts to account for the existence of Israel makes absolutely no sense because the country was not founded under the current structure of international law. It makes as much sense to apply these to Israel as it does to apply them to countries like Germany, France, or even the United States, all of whom have seen historical changes in their borders stemming from conquest.

They don't fight over it because it is pretty good land. It was all swamps and deserts until the Pioneers came and developed the land and started planting the scores of trees which are in Israel today.

Actually, the first thing I did when I went to Israel was plant a tree. It's perhaps the greatest of all the mitzvot.

...

What're you going to do, irradiate it so that anyone coming within 20km of the previous Israel dies horribly?

It's pretty good land, which is why people fight so much over it.

What I am saying is that we should just have UN officials govern the Provence and let who ever wants to live there live there. That way there is no fight over who controls the land. The only problem I can see is that there might still be conflict between Jews and Muslims but that could be solved with strong police measures.

How did a 2000 year old land claim become a 2 generations old land claim?
What you should be asking is if a two thousand year old is more morally justified then a 40 year old.
And the fact is that the world has developed quite alot since the 30 AD and I think that a modern time claim should be totally justified while a claim dating back from the classical times and the notion of a jewish state being forbidden in the same book is kind of stupid and is NOT justified.
Yea, like was said, you are misunderstanding the point, intentionally or not. I use generations because it highlights the disconnect between the relevant populations. The generation that actually experienced the creation of Israel, in a conscious manner, is dying out and soon the "injustice" of Israel's creation will be a story passed down from grandparents. That's an extremely important point. How is a story from your grandparents different from a story from your great great grandparents? I'm asking for the logic behind that. You bring up development, but Israel, and the world in general, has developed exponentially in the last half century.
They ought to just make Israel international territory that is owned by the UN that way nobody could fight over who controls Israel and Jerusalem
This would be a bad idea since, you know, there are people who actually live, as native born inhabitants, in the area. I'm all for the UN having its own "territory" so as to ensure that it remains objective and able to keep a global perspective, but it would have to be in an uninhabited land for obvious reasons.
And what do you think the Palestinians have too put up with? bullets in their home, Curfew,being shoot at,being beaten by Israeli settlers,being harassed by Jewish Settlers, getting their homes razed and KILLED

And btw there was a partof the world were Anti-semitism didnt exist .. can you guess what part? Yes thats right the Middle East.
Actually, there was plenty of anti-Jewish policy in the Islamic Middle East. Andalusian Spain was perhaps the best place to be in terms of religious tolerance and, while that was Muslim territory, it was founded by a dynasty that was more or less cast out from the mainstream Islamic empire at the time.
No cause the majority wantedindependence as in Israel the majority DIDNT want Independence and how can you use the UN charter of recognising Israel while not wanting Israel to follow the resolutions that tries to protect the palestinians.

AND ONCE AGAIN HOW DID THE UN GET THE RIGHT TOO GIVE SOMEBODY ELSES LAND AWAY??????????????

and BTW Good Night ( different time zone....)

By recognizing the legitimacy of UN decrees, there's an implicit condemnation of Israel ignoring resolutions. You seem to be making unwarranted assumptions.

It's important to note, however, that it was land they took by conquest after a group of countries launched a completely unjustified war of aggression against them.

However, the truth is, the world as it existed in 1948 was not the same as it is today; using modern concepts to account for the existence of Israel makes absolutely no sense because the country was not founded under the current structure of international law. It makes as much sense to apply these to Israel as it does to apply them to countries like Germany, France, or even the United States, all of whom have seen historical changes in their borders stemming from conquest.

Given that there was self-determinism for various former parts of Germany post WWI I don't see how you can't apply it in the 40s, 50s, and 60s. Land gain by conquest was not condonable by then.

Given that there was self-determinism for various former parts of Germany post WWI I don't see how you can't apply it in the 40s, 50s, and 60s. Land gain by conquest was not condonable by then.

It most certainly was. The Soviets took Karelia and Ukraine without opposition and the Axis powers had their own spate of annexations and conquests that were not opposed by the League of Nations; it took the actual invasion of countries like France and the UK to get them to act on these conquests, and it wasn't until the US was attacked at Pearl Harbor that we did anything to fight against the Axis powers. The colonial powers were still permitted to govern the colonies they had conquered during the 19th centuries without opposition.

In fact, the Treaty of Versailles gave the Saarland to France and some land to Poland, so part of the postwar German settlement effectively did take land from the defeated power and gave it to the conquering nations.

what do you mean by "support?" support -for me- in this case means to welcome the Idea of one or more Israels.. the idea of creating/founding one (or 2 or 3) "Jewish states" somewhere..

somewhere .. somewhere this new political entity will not create Pain and Suffering.. somewhere it will not create Genocide and Ethnic cleansing.

What I am saying is that we should just have UN officials govern the Provence and let who ever wants to live there live there. That way there is no fight over who controls the land. The only problem I can see is that there might still be conflict between Jews and Muslims but that could be solved with strong police measures.

Letting the UN govern Israel would only make things worse.

And another point which I forgot to bring up: if the Israelis are treating the Arabs so badly (which they're not), then the UN would condemn them. This hasn't happened as far as I know.

Jayate, no offense, but your history of Israel is just a little bit warped. What happened was that the UN proposed a two-state solution, half Jewish and half Palestinian, with Jerusalem as an international city. The Jews accepted it, but the Palestinians unanimously rejected it. In spite of this, they went through with it anyway. As soon as the British left, the Jewish part was attacked by six Arab nations. The Jews fought off the Arabs and then conquered the part of Israel given to the Palestinians.

Israel then won two more wars in later years. In the Six-Day-War, Egypt denied Israel access to the Suez canal and massed troops on the Egyptian/Israeli border. This was an act of war, even though the first battle was a pre-emptive strike by Israel. As a result of this war, Israel ended up occupying the Golan Heights, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip (which was given recently to the palestinians), and the entire Sinai Peninsula up to the Suez Canal, which was given back to the Egyptians.

Then there was the Yom-Kippur war, in which Israel was surprise-attacked by multiple neighboring Arab nations. Israel won this war too.

And what do you mean by "can you say genocide?" Your "genocide" is a sick machination of your imagination. Israelis never have and never will attempt a whole-sale slaughter of Palestinians. They have never killed Palestinians for the sake of killing, only for defense.

Israel never invaded anywhere. They gained territory in wars started by the Arabs.

I've been to Israel. In fact, when I was in Jersualem, I walked through the Arab quarter multiple times, and I saw the Dome of the Rock when I was praying at the Western Wall. There are no Israeli soldiers opressing Arabs on the streets. I admit to tight security and racial profiling, but no cruelty whatsoever.

The Israelis didn't "take" anything from the Palestinians. To put it in your terms, they won it "fair and square."

True, may I add, that Palestinians fully supported and AIDED the attacks against Israel during the first wars.

The Sinai Peninsula was given back after the Yom Kippur war because the Egyptians didn't make a peace agreement with the Egyptians until after the Yom Kippur war. And I never said when it was given back, btw.

Also, the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israelis isn't abysmal. The rare events that the media shows are abysmal. Israel does bad things sometimes, I admit. But Palestinians blow themselves up and kill hundreds of Israelis. No one seems to care about that though.

How about the rockets fired at Israel last summer? One of the types of rockets was filled with steel balls which would fly in every direction when they hit the ground. I saw a place where one of those hit. It was horrible. There were signs turned into Swiss cheese and balls embedded in the concrete of the bridge the missile landed under. You can all imagine what happened to the people standing in that area when it happened. No one seems to care about that either.

People need to stop trusting the media so much. They only show what they can make money off of.

So much truth. Well put. Remember when Reutgers 'accidentally' placed a perfectly undamaged teddy-bear among rubbles during the second war of Lebanon? Classy.

I support Israel because all of the countries around them are pretty much trying to destroy them. If the US doesn't help them then nobody will. And if Israel is destroyed then the next Target will be the US. On the matter of questionable acts against Muslims in the area, look at what happened earlier in the year with the rocket attacks, not to mention all of the suicide bombings in the area. Israel has a right to defend it self by any means

This is true. Hamas and its allied militant groups hate the US just as much as they hate Israel. They use the 'land-grab' excuse to carry out their attacks on the latter, and the fact that most of the rest of the world doesn't care about Israel. I am quite sure, that if they had the capability, they would just as easily have attacked the US.

While you think that it is evil, keeping Muslims out, is the only way to keep out suicide bombers unfortunately. Unless you know of another way I think that what they are doing now is acceptable.

That's true. Basically, they had lots of freedoms given to them for a while, but proved that this doesn't help stop suicide bombings, so walls are put up for defence of innocent civilians constantly dying.

Well the Israeli government is doing the best they can in a hostile environment. Also I feel sorry for anyone actually living in Israel

Don't, it's bad with all the deaths and rockets and suicide bombings, but at least now there is a home for the Jews.

I support Israel for a multitude of reasons, some have to do with Israel and its people directly, and some have to do with the Palestinians.

Firstly, the nation of Israel exists by U.N. Charter. That's prettymuch as close to a worldwide consensus as it gets. I don't know how many nations have been built this way, but one could make a case for that method being stronger than many others out there. Why is the USA a country? Because we beat up on enough other people to build it ourselves. If the USA has a right to exist so does Israel.

Second, It's one of the few stable countries in the region. It also happens to be friendly to us. When 9/11 took place, Israel was the ONLY country to send teams to help with disaster relief. We probably didn't really need it, but the gesture spoke volumes.

You want to talk about Palestinians? Those poor, oppressed people? Ok let's talk about them.

The Palestinians are currently the only group of people living on International welfare. The USA has contributed more money to the maintanence of the Palestinian people than all of the Arab nations combined.

The result? An entire group of people who are led by zealots who would rather use that money to smuggle in weapons than to build infrastructure. (Of course, if they used the money constructively, then they'd have an awfully hard time playing the victim to Israel's "oppression.")

Peple raise a fit whenever a single Israeli soldier picks up a weapon to defend his home. Frankly, with the number and frequency of Hamas attacks on Israeli citizens, I can understand why the military is so jittery. The rest of us have it easy, we can't know what it's like to live like that. NYC and Washington got a taste of it on 9/11/01. Now just imagine living in a place where it's almost commonplace for a bus or cafe to explode out from under you.

I'm sorry but whatever sympathy I had for the Palestinian situation evaporated when I saw footage of Palestinians cheering and celebrating as the World Trade Center fell. (They showed that clip a couple times before it became politically incorrect.)

Israel has had to defend itself from multiple invasions and attacks and is still there, strong as ever. I respect that.

"The result? An entire group of people who are led by zealots who would rather use that money to smuggle in weapons than to build infrastructure. (Of course, if they used the money constructively, then they'd have an awfully hard time playing the victim to Israel's "oppression.")"
Well put. They lived in relative tranquility for a few years before the second intifada began, and yes, things did improve. Israel employed a large percent of Palestinian population within Israel, and economic conditions improved. Israel supplied Palestinian territories with electricity, water, and supplies. Then, some fanatic extremists decided that the economic improvement is not going fast enough, and that starting to kill innocent Israeli civilians would somehow help their situation.
Guess what, it didn't. Israel closed its borders to most Palestinian workers because terrorists disguised as such. Now the economy has collapsed. Wonder why..
Exactly with the 9/11 thing. Israel experiences such events daily. Also, believe it or not, but anti-American and anti-Western feelings are as strong as anti-Israel ones.

Israelis don't shoot Palestinians in their homes. I don't know about any sort of curfew, but I'm not going to debate about the curfew. Do you know when the Israelis shoot (usually an intentional miss, as a threat)? When the Palestinians hurl rocks at their heads! Palestinians were NEVER beaten or harrassed by Israeli settlers. They never had their homes razed (except on one occasion in which Israelis bulldozed Arab homes in front of the Western Wall to clear out a larger portion of it, which was both ILLEGAL and WRONG but nonetheless happened.)

I don't know where you learned your history of Israel, but you didn't learn a correct one.

There is a curfew within the refuge camps. But many people are so unaware of what goes on it's amazing.

What I am saying is that we should just have UN officials govern the Provence and let who ever wants to live there live there. That way there is no fight over who controls the land. The only problem I can see is that there might still be conflict between Jews and Muslims but that could be solved with strong police measures.
Aye, because the IDF, which is essentially acting as a strong police force, has had GREAT SUCCESS as of late?

More the point - the UN would be a terrible group to rule it. Look a Kosovo, one of the UN-administered provinces. 50% unemployment, everyone fed up, crippling debt and troops all over the place.

Well I was just trying to make a suggestion. It probably wouldn't work because both sides believe that they are the rightful owners of Israel.

This is true, anti-semitism is older than Christianity. I'm Jewish and I need to put up with it on a daily basis.can you give us a few clear examples of your Daily suffering?

As a future note on the Israel debate, I would like to add that the anti-Israel people should get their facts straight if they plan to argue Israel's right to exist. I'm sick of fictional accounts of cruelty, or small, rare incidents blown up by the media and frequently talked about.

I believe my work is done here (for now). Farewell my brethren.

Examples of Anti-Semetism:

-a lot of my Christian friends try to convert me.
-I've been called "Jew bag" and "dirty Jew."
-I get called both of the above names a whole lot online, and other names I don't wish to discuss
-I go on forums like these and see people throwing our bullcrap about Israel and the Jewish people.

And I'm one of the lucky ones who live on the East Coast of the US, which actually have a relatively large Jewish population.

Lord almighty Intelligenstan you must have been working forever on this response.

no this is not any anti semite thing, i just want to know what is your reason for supporting israel.
i support the palestinan cause and the people, not any one group or milita,
though i believe that hamas is the one with the biggest chance of making palestine a country, so come one every one dishup your reasons for supporting israel and how to solve the palestinan problem, who knows maybe dubya will take notice :):)

If Hamas stops blowing up civilians and learns to compromise, I can agree with you about Hamas. Right now though, it seems that Fatah is the best hope.

I support Israel's right to exist for they came into existence legally and other nations have been stupid enough to attack them. Just because of religious hatred in most instances. Religious bigotry is something that I despise.

Also, can you say genocide?

I can but if you think there is a genocide going on in the middle east, you are sadly mistaken.

Aye, because the IDF, which is essentially acting as a strong police force, has had GREAT SUCCESS as of late?

More the point - the UN would be a terrible group to rule it. Look a Kosovo, one of the UN-administered provinces. 50% unemployment, everyone fed up, crippling debt and troops all over the place.

well, the UN really isn't all that great I suppose. If I recall there was a declaration to look out for genocide and stamp out anyone who is committing it, I don't see anything happening in Dar fur. The UN also hasn't done a good job in Iraq. If they are against us then they should try to get us to leave. But if they are for us then they should send help and supplies.

Lord almighty Intelligenstan you must have been working forever on this response.

nope, actually it's mostly quotes if you look carefully.

The UN doesn't have the right to create a state in a place where the majority of the people don't want one. If the UN had that right, then it'd be the God of the World instead of the [impotent] government of the World.

UB is that you?

Also, the Jews were being forced there by the British because too many were migrating to Britain during WWII.

Oh brother.

The creation is Israel is similar to the creation of the USA. The people there were forced to give up their land, Britain eventually colonized the land, and eventually the people got their independence with the natives getting screwed over ultimately.

Um son? The Jewish heritage is much older than the Muslims and they are actually native to that region.

Palestinians.

Dies of laughter

I can but if you think there is a genocide going on in the middle east, you are sadly mistaken.

This is true the only Genocide in the middle east was probably when the Kurds in the area were killed.

well, the UN really isn't all that great I suppose.
Quite. It's like the League of Nations all over again.
If I recall there was a declaration to look out for genocide and stamp out anyone who is committing it, I don't see anything happening in Dar fur.
AU and EU troops are in Sudan already, and the UN are going in soon, and will be hiring private security companies like Blackwater to do their work there. Can't wait for that one.
The UN also hasn't done a good job in Iraq. If they are against us then they should try to get us to leave. But if they are for us then they should send help and supplies.
"Can the UN send help to Iraq?"
"Veto"

The Palestinians and the Israelis were not the original people who lived in what is called Israel today. The Canaanites lived there before Abraham stttled there. We obviously need to give the land back to them and evict all of the rest.

I would just like to mention that the argument is over and everyone still posting is pro-Israeli and arguing about nothing to meet no end in particular. We should be UNITED, not bickering about the UN's effectiveness. The UN are n00bs recently. Except for UNICEF. They pwn all.

And another point which I forgot to bring up: if the Israelis are treating the Arabs so badly (which they're not), then the UN would condemn them. This hasn't happened as far as I know.
I don't think the UN works the way you think it does.

Nothing much really change though.

I support Israel because it is. People live there, they are born and they marry and have children there and they are Israelis, and therefore, it is. You cannot turn back the clock.

I do not care about the arguments and issues of its creation- other than Iceland and a few scattered places, there are no nations with no stories of conflict in their origin. You want to turn back the clock? To what year? 1967? But, in 1967, the Gaza strip was Egyptian and the west bank Jordanian- and no one complained. So, turn back the clock and there is no nation of Palestine. But if you live in today, Palestine is a nation too, and must be accepted. Do we turn back the clock to 1947? Does that mean India gets to retake Pakistan? Why stop there? We can go back to 630AD, maybe, and give Turkey back to the Greeks, and Morroco back to the Berbers, yes? We could move back to 2 million BC and all live in central Africa.

There is no day but today, and the clock moves only one way. Today, there is Israel, and there is Palestine, and both must be supported. In fact, as soon as they start thinking, people will realize that Israel is not the natural enemy of Palestine but its greatest possible asset. There is a lot Palestine could gain from cooperation with Israel, once they understand that rockets and bombs will not solve their problem, that "resistance" is stupid.

go blackwater, (I'm from NC) any way I don't think I'm going to change any opinions so i''ll see yall around.

I support Israel because it is. People live there, they are born and they marry and have children there and they are Israelis, and therefore, it is. You cannot turn back the clock.

I do not care about the arguments and issues of its creation- other than Iceland and a few scattered places, there are no nations with no stories of conflict in their origin. You want to turn back the clock? To what year? 1967? But, in 1967, the Gaza strip was Egyptian and the west bank Jordanian- and no one complained. So, turn back the clock and there is no nation of Palestine. But if you live in today, Palestine is a nation too, and must be accepted. Do we turn back the clock to 1947? Does that mean India gets to retake Pakistan? Why stop there? We can go back to 630AD, maybe, and give Turkey back to the Greeks, and Morroco back to the Berbers, yes? We could move back to 2 million BC and all live in central Africa.

There is no day but today, and the clock moves only one way. Today, there is Israel, and there is Palestine, and both must be supported. In fact, as soon as they start thinking, people will realize that Israel is not the natural enemy of Palestine but its greatest possible asset. There is a lot Palestine could gain from cooperation with Israel, once they understand that rockets and bombs will not solve their problem, that "resistance" is stupid.

So true.

Umm, sorry about this, but the Sinai Peninsula was taken back by Egypt after Yom-Kippur, and Israel didn't win it either, it was stalemated and the UN called for a cease-fire and to ensure that powers that be (The US and The USSR) told them to behave (... something about -ahem- a nuclear scare).

Sorry squire but this map proves you wrong:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Yom_Kippur_War_map.svg

As does this:

The Egyptians and Syrians advanced during the first 24–48 hours, after which momentum began to swing in Israel's favor. By the second week of the war, the Syrians had been pushed entirely out of the Golan Heights. In the Sinai to the south, the Israelis struck at the "seam" between two invading Egyptian armies, crossed the Suez Canal (where the old ceasefire line had been), and cut off the Egyptian Third Army just as a United Nations cease-fire came into effect.

The Egyptians won their pride back along with their territories, and in return they gave Israel their recognition and normalized diplomatic channels, of course because of this Egypt was thrown out of the Arab League.

HAHA! You realize it was not until an actual peace treaty was signed with Egypt that the Sinai was handed back to Egypt right? No I see that you don't. And no. Egypt was not thrown out of the Arab League unless you can provide a source?

Sorry squire but this map proves you wrong:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Yom_Kippur_War_map.svg

As does this:





HAHA! You realize it was not until an actual peace treaty was signed with Egypt that the Sinai was handed back to Egypt right? No I see that you don't. And no. Egypt was not thrown out of the Arab League unless you can provide a source?

Read below the map you provided, page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War#Camp_David_Accords

Court members these days, can't hardly read the details, nor has any other sources other than wiki, that should repair BOTH our mistakes.

I guess as the grandson of a holocaust survivor and the son of an Israeli I have a lot of reasons. I guess to start with the survival of my people. Many people, and even some Jews, believe that we were better off without Israel, I have to say this is no more true than the libel that Jews use Christian babies' blood to bake matzoh. Prior to Israel was the Holocaust and before that countless pogroms led by the Russians, Polish, and even many Western European countries. So to go back to the Holocaust, Jews could not go to any country, very few were changing how many immigrants could come from each country, despite knowledge of the atrocities (by 1942 the allies knew what was happening, 5 million Jews were still to die at this point). My next reason would fall onto the fact that in 1921, as reported by the British governor of Palestine (this means Israel, both territories and Jordan), there were 700,000 people in Palestine (compare this number to the 6.5 million citizens of Israel today). It was almost completely desert and it wasn't important until the 1930s when the Jews started BUYING (so yes, it was completely legal) land from the "Palestinians". And my last reason will be, at this point who really expects the Jews to leave? Now that it has been completely settled, where will the Jews go now? No one took them in during the Holocaust, the same thing will happen if Israel is destroyed. I'm not going to venture any ideas on how to solve the conflict, because it won't make a difference, all I'm going to say is it won't end for a long time, so for those who support the Palestinians, congrats on supporting those who praised their lord on 9/11, I personally blame their leaders for their problems, they've had more than ample opportunity to solve the problem.

go blackwater
Eugh. No.

I disagree with Israel in its current form since the idea of a state with openly racial/religious discriminationary policies goes against my principles.

Then explain how there are arabs in the cabinet, the Knesset, and the Supreme Court?

To think that this problem may have been avoided if they had created a Jewish state in Uganda like they first planned.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Uganda_Program

And no. Egypt was not thrown out of the Arab League unless you can provide a source?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League#Members is what I assume he's talking about.

To think that this problem may have been avoided if they had created a Jewish state in Uganda like they first planned.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Uganda_Program

Can't imagine the drama/lulz it'd generate though.

First of all the UN can do things wrong.

QFT

2nd of all it wasnt self-defence as they declared independence in another nations terrirory whit the majority not wanting a jewish state and then ethnically cleansing the main population that lived there.

Oh brother. Aren't you wrong! First of all, they declared Independence in the land given to them. It was these lands that the arabs jumped without provocation. Ergo, your statement is wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League#Members is what I assume he's talking about.

What? Venezuela?... errr,... back to topic,... yeah, that link also mentioned Egypt's cause of suspension (and readmittance in 1989).

Can't imagine the drama/lulz it'd generate though.

True but think of stable democracy in Africa might actually help that country. Wow, now that I think about it, I take that back.

It most certainly was. The Soviets took Karelia and Ukraine without opposition and the Axis powers had their own spate of annexations and conquests that were not opposed by the League of Nations; it took the actual invasion of countries like France and the UK to get them to act on these conquests, and it wasn't until the US was attacked at Pearl Harbor that we did anything to fight against the Axis powers. The colonial powers were still permitted to govern the colonies they had conquered during the 19th centuries without opposition.

In fact, the Treaty of Versailles gave the Saarland to France and some land to Poland, so part of the postwar German settlement effectively did take land from the defeated power and gave it to the conquering nations.
Most of those claims were based on prior ownership rather than right of conquest. But even so, there was not full acceptance of the idea of right of conquest in the 1919, I hold that there was little if any in the 40s, and even moreso in the 50s, 60s, 70s.


well, the UN really isn't all that great I suppose. If I recall there was a declaration to look out for genocide and stamp out anyone who is committing it, I don't see anything happening in Dar fur. The UN also hasn't done a good job in Iraq. If they are against us then they should try to get us to leave. But if they are for us then they should send help and supplies.


The downside of the interested parties (here USA, UK, etc) having a veto.

Examples of Anti-Semetism:

-a lot of my Christian friends try to convert me.
-I've been called "Jew bag" and "dirty Jew."
-I get called both of the above names a whole lot online, and other names I don't wish to discuss
-I go on forums like these and see people throwing our bullcrap about Israel and the Jewish people.

And I'm one of the lucky ones who live on the East Coast of the US, which actually have a relatively large Jewish population.

1, Join the club. Many Christians like (and I believe the bible commands them) to try and convert everyone.

2, and 3,. It's people trying to be offensive. If you weren't Jewish then they'd say something else. They're not calling you that (though obviously I can't say this with 100% certainty under the circumstances) because they're anti-semitic, they're saying it because they are annoyed/hate/etc you and want to insult you in the most hurtful way they can think of.

4. This is the internet, bullcrap is thrown around about everything. Israel=/=Jews, but even so it's what happens to more or less every group out there.

They ought to just make Israel international territory that is owned by the UN that way nobody could fight over who controls Israel and Jerusalem

The UN resolution that the arabs violated called for Jerusalem to be an internationally runned, UN Controlled city.

Can someone quote something other than wikipedia for once?

Then explain how there are arabs in the cabinet, the Knesset, and the Supreme Court?

I was more referring to the nature of Israel as a 'jewish state' with preferential immigration practices for jews wishing to move there.

Can someone quote something other than wikipedia for once?
Quite.

someone should create a thread about how effective the UN is.

no this is not any anti semite thing, i just want to know what is your reason for supporting israel.


Because they deal with terrorists far more effectively than other nations.

Can someone quote something other than wikipedia for once?

I could but then that would take time and energy. Which I have plenty of both.

I support Israel out of many reasons.
One of them beeing that they are the only place in the middle east where I can say "Religion is a effin hoax!" and will not be killed on the spot.

Another one of them beeing that they were given the land, remember this was land that nobody wanted at the time.

Also, I find myself wondering, how old is the so called "Palestinians" as a peapole? 2007-???? As far as I know, there were no palestinians back in 1930.

At that time they called themselfs arabs, and they were normads.
What I find myself wondering about, is how the hell peapole from jordan and syria suddenly became "Palestinians"
Not to mention that Israel is worth the land it resides on, unlike all of its bordering states.

Because they deal with terrorists far more effectively than other nations.

Not really. Unless by dealing with you mean encouraging more.

Read below the map you provided, page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War#Camp_David_Accords

Court members these days, can't hardly read the details, nor has any other sources other than wiki, that should repair BOTH our mistakes.

Ah but you forget that the Sinai peninsula was not handed over till after the peace treaty was signed in 1978. That was 5 years after the Yom Kippur War. So no. The Egyptians did not take the Sinai during the war as previously stated.

So if you bothered to actually read the full statement...

The UN doesn't have the right to create a state in a place where the majority of the people don't want one. If the UN had that right, then it'd be the God of the World instead of the [impotent] government of the World.

Also, the Jews were being forced there by the British because too many were migrating to Britain during WWII.

The creation is Israel is similar to the creation of the USA. The people there were forced to give up their land, Britain eventually colonized the land, and eventually the people got their independence with the natives getting screwed over ultimately.



Palestinians.



so you blame ...Israel for the fact that the British were 'forcing' them there? I don't understand your logic.

Oh, and the many wars against Israel mean nothing? The couple times that the Arab world wanted to exterminate them? I'm sure that counts for something.

Not really. Unless by dealing with you mean encouraging more.

No, I mean they go about it more efficiently. The U.S. takes foerver, Israel just uses car-bombs.

Now Russia deals with them efficiently when bothered, but they generally encourage them. :(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League#Members is what I assume he's talking about.

maybe but I am looking at it now and it says suspended. Suspended is different than actually being kicked out.

What? Venezuela?... errr,... back to topic,... yeah, that link also mentioned Egypt's cause of suspension (and readmittance in 1989).

so you admit that they were not "thrown out" but suspended!

so you admit that they were not "thrown out" but suspended!

Geez,...

Many in the Arab community were outraged at Egypt's peace with Israel. Egypt was expelled from the Arab League. Until then, Egypt had been "at the helm of the Arab world."[60]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War#Camp_David_Accords

EJECTED!

Egypt's membership was suspended in 1979 after it signed a peace treaty with Israel.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League#Members

SUSPENDED!

Take your pick. I personally pick EJECTED, because it's kinda like Egypt's been cheating with Israel,... the "suspension" was a term later used to soften it up, because appearantly the Leaguers cannot live without Egypt.

Oh yeah by "BOTH our mistake",... isn't the "our" meant that I also err'ed?

I agree with the Utopian Republic.Israel should own its own land besides it plays a powerful nation in Christianity and Judaism.I for one am a Christian so I support it any way I can.

Radical judaism is slightly less offensive than radical islam.

Radical judaism is slightly less offensive than radical islam.

It appears so. Otherwise this topic would the other way around, no? :p

Geez,...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War#Camp_David_Accords

EJECTED!

And yet the Arab league page said they were suspended which is totally different than being ejected.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League#Members

SUSPENDED!

Take your pick. I personally pick EJECTED, because it's kinda like Egypt's been cheating with Israel,... the "suspension" was a term later used to soften it up, because appearantly the Leaguers cannot live without Egypt.

Suspension is actualy the right phrase in this case.

Thats easy. I don't. And its Palestine fyi

Thats easy. I don't. And its Palestine fyi

Silly boy. Everyone knows Palestine is a figment of the muslim imagination ;) :p


Anyways, I don't support the country known as Israel, but I support Israel in the sense of those being descendants of Abraham, through his son Isaac.

What? Venezuela?... errr,... back to topic,... yeah, that link also mentioned Egypt's cause of suspension (and readmittance in 1989).
Yea, thought that was odd, too. But, notice it says Venezuela is an "observer"...not sure what that even amounts to, but there ya go.
2, and 3,. It's people trying to be offensive. If you weren't Jewish then they'd say something else. They're not calling you that (though obviously I can't say this with 100% certainty under the circumstances) because they're anti-semitic, they're saying it because they are annoyed/hate/etc you and want to insult you in the most hurtful way they can think of.Actually, I've noticed this, too, but it might just be because Indiana is a backward ass state, imo. People use "Oh, I got Jewed" all the time and similar comments, as if that's somehow completely socially acceptable, and I've seen this used whether or not the person speaking knows I'm Jewish. It's actually really common and really fucking stupid and even more annoying.

Can someone quote something other than wikipedia for once?
Why would I spend time gathering information that half the people replying won't read anyway when I can just wiki something and a list of cited sources is right there to disputed if need be? Honestly, the wiki-hate is old. (not you specifically, just posters in general)
Take your pick. I personally pick EJECTED, because it's kinda like Egypt's been cheating with Israel,... the "suspension" was a term later used to soften it up, because appearantly the Leaguers cannot live without Egypt.

Oh yeah by "BOTH our mistake",... isn't the "our" meant that I also err'ed?
Not surprising they had to let Egypt back in. It's been a leader in the Arab world, in one way or another, for a long while now.
Thats easy. I don't. And its Palestine fyi

God, that shit is as annoying as this professor who is a rabid supporter of Israel. Apparently a woman introduced herself as Palestinian and he told her that that's impossible because "there is no Palestine." It's Israel and Palestine, fyi, deal with real life.

I support Israel for many reasons. I am a Jew and a Zionist, and I believe in Israel's right to exist - I've even considered making aliyah and moving there.

I don't think Israel is perfect - no nation is - but it is doing a decent job in my opinion.

I also support the rights of the Palestinians to have a state. They've made into a nation over the last several decades, and I think that giving them their own country is the best solution.

Though, now that I think about it, maybe the West Bank and Gaza Strip isn't the best place - not much there apart from sand and ancient ruins. Instead, they should take some territory from the people who have been screwing them over since day 1.

Give the Palestinians half of Syria.

I strongly support Israel and do not recognize any people called Palestinians. There were a few Arabs living in the area, but it was basically a swamp before Jewish immigrants fought back the land. Some crazed cleric decided to start the whole hatred thing by indoctrinating Arabs to think they were kicked out of their "historical" homeland, which is absolutely untrue.

A little off-topic but I fly to Israel in 12 days!

I don't think I need to answer the question as to why I support Israel. Everyone who has ever read my posts know that I'm a Jew and damn fucking proud of it.

A little off-topic but I fly to Israel in 12 days!

I don't think I need to answer the question as to why I support Israel. Everyone who has ever read my posts know that I'm a Jew and damn fucking proud of it.

I think we got that one, IDF...:p

Frankly, however, I doubt any of the nations involved are willing to share.

true i'm just waiting till the palestinans outnumber the israelis

This problem could have been avoided by dumping the Jews on Antarctica instead of in the Middle East. And it would have been funny watching them fight against the penguins. :p

lol

1. I support Israel because they have the right to have there own nation... 2. After all the persecution they have experienced for centuries its only fair... 3. And I don't give a crap about the arguement about that Israel has taken land from the palestinians... 4. making a new country always means that another country must give up some of its lands and it has always been like that..

5. And the palestinians, allthough I can see how annoying this is and unfair it most seem, should get on with their lives 6. and groups like Hamas and Fatah should stop harassing their neighbors and their own people and try to build stable and decent state..

i agree with parts 1&2 but i ask you is it fair to kick out people who have lived in their country since the muslims conquered it and then kick them out?
annoying is the biggest understatement of the year, they are pissed off at the West, Britain in particular and America, 2 fatah and hamas have very little strength to combat the IDF, while theyre attacks are mentally powerful, otherwise leave a lot to be desired, in comparison to israeli nukes and clusterbombs, and they cant build a stable and decent state because Israel has destablised it to a point that its basically a free for all, and hamas was orginally supported by israel against the PLO

I strongly support Israel and do not recognize any people called Palestinians. There were a few Arabs living in the area, but it was basically a swamp before Jewish immigrants fought back the land. Some crazed cleric decided to start the whole hatred thing by indoctrinating Arabs to think they were kicked out of their "historical" homeland, which is absolutely untrue.

Total Kahanist nonsense which has been pointed out to you in detail on this board before, and which you failed to even attempt to refute. I have to conclude that you are therefore willfully lying, possibly to troll.

People use "Oh, I got Jewed"

...what in all flying fuckery does that expression mean....

I put it like this, Israel belongs to the Jews. Muslims know this too. Abraham gave the land to the son from his wife, not the son from his concubine. It is wrong how Israel was created after WWII and how they treat Arabs that are there, but it is still their land.

the land belongs to all the followers of god, and children of abraham regardless of religion

Genocide my arse.

it was genocide please check number of dead

the land belongs to all the followers of god, and children of abraham regardless of religion
The land belongs to people who wish to live there and make their livelihoods there. Abraham or religion shouldn't even factor into it.
Total Kahanist nonsense which has been pointed out to you in detail on this board before, and which you failed to even attempt to refute. I have to conclude that you are therefore willfully lying, possibly to troll.To be fair, people also keep implying in this thread that Israel is completely dependent upon US assistance for its continued survival. This simply isn't true; there was even a thread a while back, if I recall, that had a bunch of links stating otherwise.
...what in all flying fuckery does that expression mean....

It's used to express a feeling that one's been cheated...because of, you know, the whole Jewish banker thing. Which, to be honest, I don't even get. I've actually never encountered a Jewish banker, does that stereotype really have any basis in reality that is more recent than 500 years ago?

it was genocide please check number of dead

Prove it was a genocide.

In my view, both sides have committed atrocities and are completely unreasonable. Israel should be forced to recognize the original borders of Palestine defined by the UN or they lose their foreign aid/ western support and the Palestinian state should be given foreign aid on the condition they do their best to deter terrorism. Of course, it isn't as easy as just saying "stop it you guys!" or the problem would be solved by now.

true

Finally, I look at who has striven to take lives, and who has sought to save them. Israel is not innocent, and nor am I - I fully acknowledge that Israel has done some very morally questionable and occasionally brutal acts. But when one side seeks security, and the other seeks murder, I know where I stand.

hmm which one is seeking murder and which one is seeking security?

it was genocide please check number of dead

Ah, genocide and a large death toll are not necessarily related.

Israel is surrounded by brutal, feudal societies that wish to see its demise, deny the existence of the holocaust and desire another, regularly attack it in groups on Yom Kippur none the less! ! feudal? you mean saudi arabia cus i condem them too, not all arabs deny the holocaust just the loony ones, nor do we desire it where do you get that info? FOX?, i also condem the yom kippur attack ya know.

In fact, if they weren't so anti-Semitic, there would be some great trade opportunities available with Israel.! semites include arabs genius

Hamas regularly fires rockets at random into southern Israel, at civilian targets, whereas the Israelis at least aim for military targets. They don't invade unless provoked by people attacking them en masse (like an army or three) or kidnapping their soldiers.
please check palestinan civilian casulites in comparison to israeli civilian!

And anyway- we've been oppressing the Jews for thousands of years. The desire a chance to absolutely woop and army the rest of the region can send at them! so we get the short end of the stick? under us they were protected as people of the book

hmm which one is seeking murder and which one is seeking security?

In truth, they are both seeking security but it is the extremist pricks who are seeking murder.

no this is not any anti semite thing, i just want to know what is your reason for supporting israel.
i support the palestinan cause and the people, not any one group or milita,
though i believe that hamas is the one with the biggest chance of making palestine a country, so come one every one dishup your reasons for supporting israel and how to solve the palestinan problem, who knows maybe dubya will take notice :):)

Dubya can read? :eek:

the UN proposed a two-state solution, half Jewish and half Palestinian, with Jerusalem as an international city. The Jews accepted it, but the Palestinians unanimously rejected it. ." that was passed by 2 votes
In spite of this, they went through with it anyway. As soon as the British left, the Jewish part was attacked by six Arab nations. The Jews fought off the Arabs and then conquered the part of Israel given to the Palestinians.
." also the arab nations were weaker than now and israel has always held the advantage
And what do you mean by "can you say genocide?" Your "genocide" is a sick machination of your imagination. Israelis never have and never will attempt a whole-sale slaughter of Palestinians. They have never killed Palestinians for the sake of killing, only for defense.." when palestinans kill its called terrorism when israelis kill its called defense?


Israel never invaded anywhere. They gained territory in wars started by the Arabs.." they declared a state and took palestinan land, starting the wars
On 14 May 1948, one day before the end of the British Mandate of Palestine, Israel declared its independence and sovereignty on the portion partitioned by UNSCOP for the Jewish state. The next day, the Arab League reiterated officially their opposition to the "two-state solution" in a letter to the UN [15]. That day, the armies of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq invaded the territory partitioned for the Arab state, thus starting the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. The nascent Israeli Defense Force repulsed the Arab nations from part of the occupied territories, thus extending its borders beyond the original UNSCOP partition [16]. By December of 1948, Israel controlled all of the mandate Palestine except the West Bank and the Gaza Strip which remained under the control of Jordan and Egypt respectively. Prior and during this conflict, 711,000 [17] Palestinians Arabs fled their original lands or were expelled by the Israeli army to become Palestinian refugees [18]. The War came to an end with the signing of the 1949 Armistice Agreements between Israel and each of its Arab neighbors. This 1949 armistice line, the so-called green line, is to this day the internationally-recognized border of the state of Israel. It is often referred to as the "pre-1967" border.

I've been to Israel. In fact, when I was in Jersualem, I walked through the Arab quarter multiple times, and I saw the Dome of the Rock when I was praying at the Western Wall. There are no Israeli soldiers opressing Arabs on the streets. I admit to tight security and racial profiling, but no cruelty whatsoever.." you saw one sector of a place how do you know there wasn't any cruelty?


The Israelis didn't "take" anything from the Palestinians. To put it in your terms, they won it "fair and square." they took a whole lot of land without invasion please pay attention to palestinan refugees

The behavior of the Palestinians has been despicable for 90 years. Until they root out the random murderers from their society, there is no way I can support statehood for them.

no this is not any anti semite thing, i just want to know what is your reason for supporting israel.
i support the palestinan cause and the people, not any one group or milita,
though i believe that hamas is the one with the biggest chance of making palestine a country, so come one every one dishup your reasons for supporting israel and how to solve the palestinan problem, who knows maybe dubya will take notice :):)

Because all the cool kids are support Israel. ;)

so you would rather support the people who call themselves "freedom fighters" and does this by blowing up school busses, bars, cafe's, and other public areas filled with civilians.... And muslims treats christians and jews any better than israel treats the arabs? when did you last visit the real world?

The Dome of the Rock mosque is build on the ruined foundation of the most holy jewish temple... and now the muslims get angry when jews visit this temple... oh they are soooo tolerant these muslims :rolleyes: (Not refering to all muslims, only the fanatics)

we actually treated them much better.
i do not support attacking civilians, only military people
did we ruin the temple? did we pull it down, also the christains did build a church there.

2) I personally support Israel because they've put up with so much shit over the years. On the other hand, a lot of their conduct has been utterly disgraceful, and I have sympathies with the Palestinians, too. And Lebanese, who're always the worst off.

How can you sympathise with a people who claim to have the right to a country cos its written in a book. What happened to their people in WWII was (beyond) horrible but to punish the Palestinians and Lebanese for no reason is a disgrace.

I am not a racist but I think there is a serious imbalance in the east, and I have to soloution but I wish someone did! In essence, it just all sucks! lol

I support Israel because all of the countries around them are pretty much trying to destroy them. If the US doesn't help them then nobody will. And if Israel is destroyed then the next Target will be the US. On the matter of questionable acts against Muslims in the area, look at what happened earlier in the year with the rocket attacks, not to mention all of the suicide bombings in the area. Israel has a right to defend it self by any means

actually we all have given up on destroying israel its just small groups,
"has a right to defend it self by any means" does that include a palestinan holocaust do tell

How can you sympathise with a people who claim to have the right to a country cos its written in a book. What happened to their people in WWII was (beyond) horrible but to punish the Palestinians and Lebanese for no reason is a disgrace.

Look at the original map of the states of Israel and Palestine! Yup. There was a two state solution that was rejected by the arabs. Guess what? They launched an unprovoked war of agression and lost. Egypt and Jordan made out as Egypt took the Gaza Strip and Jordan took the West Bank. It was not till the next war that Israel took the West Bank along with the Gaza Strip.

I am not a racist but I think there is a serious imbalance in the east, and I have to soloution but I wish someone did! In essence, it just all sucks! lol

I agree that the violence in the Middle East sucks.

I support Israel because there is no realistic alternative, and because the Jewish people have a claim to Jerusalem many centuries older than Muslims. Ideologically because Israel is surrounded by Islamists and they want to tighten the noose. I respect Israel because its willing to take a stand against terrorism. Also, because Israel is the underpuppy that fights like a German Shepherd.

Well said. Couldn't agree more.

Personally I support The Palestinians because it is the Zionist regime that has caused most of the problems in their area of the middle east, I say make Israel the size it was supposed to be in the begining, make a palestinian state, Democracy or not, what ever they decide to do is not my problem, make Jerusalem an international religious city so anybody Jewish, Muslim and Christian can go there and make Israel make its own money, quit supporting it when it is capable of supporting its self, but I don't think Israel should fall, since the Jews do have a right to a state and it does have civil rights even if the Jews only enjoy them, just my thoughts.

. they won by 2 votes,

others have been destablised due to constant US interference

the US gives more money to Israel in one year than ever to Palestine

The result? An entire group of people who are led by zealots who would rather use that money to smuggle in weapons than to build, corruption and autocracy doesnt cut it K
"People raise a fit whenever a single Israeli soldier picks up a weapon to defend his home. " really when?

The Jewish claim to the land is 2000 years old. The 2 generations old claim is the Palestinian claim. Regardless to claims to the land, Israel was given half of it by the UN and won the other half in a war of self-defense (as odd as that sounds).

the israeli claim while older is not backeed ip as strongly cus they had to keave to return no?, we just came in after they left

1. Israelis don't shoot Palestinians in their homes. .
2. Do you know when the Israelis shoot When the Palestinians hurl rocks at their heads! 3. Palestinians were NEVER beaten or harrassed by Israeli settlers. 4. They never had their homes razed

I don't know where you learned your history of Israel, but you didn't learn a correct one.
they did on 1,2 3 and 4 also they only have rocks, settlers have guns!!!!!!!!

What about the Jewish foundations dedicated to buying land their, and slowing moving back home? !

Yet by the expulsions of 1947 only 7% of what was then Palestine had been purchased...

Israel is surrounded by brutal, feudal societies that wish to see its demise,
!


....and what has that to with the brutal feudal way Israel treats the Palestinians in the OT?

Israel is a free state, and the alternative is very much undesirable. In the west, women have affairs when they get stoned. In Saudi Arabia, women get stoned when they have affairs.!

..which has what to do with the Palestinians....?


In fact, if they weren't so anti-Semitic, there would be some great trade opportunities available with Israel..!

Being subject to a brutal regime of martial law by Israel may well explain what feelings of resentment are there.


, whereas the Israelis at least aim for military targets. ...!

...but quite a lot of the time seem to hit civillians....with single shots, through the head.....

Also, the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israelis isn't abysmal....!

A two tier system of justice, water supply? Arbitrary eviction and destruction of property? "settler" only roads and areas? "arab only" curfews?

Israel's the only functioning Western democracy in the Middle East and it grants its people far more civil and personal freedoms than any other country in the region. It is a role model for the Arab states when it comes to moving towards democracy, economic development and personal freedom. ....!

So if Saudi sets up a province in Kuwait, treats the inhabitants like dirt and slowly drives them out over 40 years while inseting its own citizens, we can safely say they've just followed the sterliing example set for them....


I can assure you though that the ones that live in Israel, like the ones in Jerusalem, have full rights.

In theory they do. In fact, go ask the Bedouin in the Negev.


Peple raise a fit whenever a single Israeli soldier picks up a weapon to defend his home.

Gaza, Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank are not inside Israels borders.

Palestinians were NEVER beaten or harrassed by Israeli settlers. .

Settlers attack Palestinian farmers, some of them small children, February 2007
http://www.btselem.org/english/Testimonies/20070209_Neve_Daniel_Settlers_attack_farmers.asp



Israeli Settlers attack Palestinian School Girls in Hebron
http://www.eappi.org/eappiphotos.nsf/collectionslist/84.html

Settlers attack Ecumenical Accompaniers in Hebron
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/eed216406b50bf6485256ce10072f637/d72bb399dc59f2818525715e006b78d2!OpenDocument


Settlers attack UN personnel near southern Hebron Hills
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/889469.html

And another point which I forgot to bring up: if the Israelis are treating the Arabs so badly (which they're not), then the UN would condemn them. This hasn't happened as far as I know.

Thats what happens when the US vetos the motions....the assembly has condemned them many times, but the security council sees the US intervene.

It's used to express a feeling that one's been cheated...because of, you know, the whole Jewish banker thing. Which, to be honest, I don't even get. I've actually never encountered a Jewish banker, does that stereotype really have any basis in reality that is more recent than 500 years ago?

99 times out of 100, probably not. When the 1 time occurs, every bigot in the place jumps out and says "I told you so". Sad, but true.

"This is true. Hamas and its allied militant groups hate the US just as much as they hate Israel. They use the 'land-grab' excuse to carry out their attacks on the latter, and the fact that most of the rest of the world doesn't care about Israel. I am quite sure, that if they had the capability, they would just as easily have attacked the US."

wtf?!?!?!?!?!

"Well put. They lived in relative tranquility for a few years before the second intifada began, and yes, things did improve. Israel employed a large percent of Palestinian population within Israel, and economic conditions improved. Israel supplied Palestinian territories with electricity, water, and supplies. Then, some fanatic extremists decided that the economic improvement is not going fast enough, and that starting to kill innocent Israeli civilians would somehow help their situation." um do you know why the 2nd intifada started ?

I give up apparently all here support israel

I give up apparently all here support israel

No I don't,... well, mostly because I don't care. Ha!

I give up apparently all here support israel

Actually its the opposite. I suspect sock-puppetry

I give up apparently all here support israel

I support both a state for Israel and Palestine. I do not support the acts of violence by terror organizations.

actually we all have given up on destroying israel its just small groups,
"has a right to defend it self by any means" does that include a palestinan holocaust do tell
I'd be interested in more explanation of this Palestinian holocaust. As I've stated before, by no means is the treatment of Palestinians in Israel acceptable, but you seem to be enjoying hyperbole quite a bit in this thread. Also, your statement implicitly admits that for a while it was a primary goal to destroy Israel. Maybe you realize that, maybe you don't, I don't know, but it seems fairly important to highlight in this type of debate.
. they won by 2 votes,

others have been destablised due to constant US interference

the US gives more money to Israel in one year than ever to Palestine

The result? An entire group of people who are led by zealots who would rather use that money to smuggle in weapons than to build, corruption and autocracy doesnt cut it K
"People raise a fit whenever a single Israeli soldier picks up a weapon to defend his home. " really when?
Which is unfortunate. What the US should be doing is building up a Palestinian economic sector. Soon as a country has a large enough middle class, the type of idiocy that is associated with Palestine, justified or not, begins to decline.
....and what has that to with the brutal feudal way Israel treats the Palestinians in the OT?

...but quite a lot of the time seem to hit civillians....with single shots, through the head.....

A two tier system of justice, water supply? Arbitrary eviction and destruction of property? "settler" only roads and areas? "arab only" curfews?

In theory they do. In fact, go ask the Bedouin in the Negev.
Quoted the important bits. I think the "feudal system" the poster was talking about is the fact that both Egypt and Jordan have kings. I'm not sure the extent of their powers; if I recall correctly they're primarily figureheads with the equivalents powers of, say, the Queen of England, but don't quote me on that (or do and correct me if I'm wrong...like I said, I'm not sure). Oh, also Morocco has a prince (maybe a king, too?).

I'm interested in how often Israeli soldiers intentionally, or suspiciously, shoot civilians in the head. Do you have sources for this? I don't doubt that it doesn't happen but, honestly, you can't see the difference between poor military operations within civilian area and intentionally targeting civilians with bombs? Don't act like the Palestinians are these absolutely blameless victims, it does nothing but hinder a peaceful solution.

Oh, and seriously? You're going to bring up Bedouins? No one in the Middle East respects Bedouins, and it's a terrible unfortunate thing. It makes sense, though. Government, historically, do not appreciate nomadic tribes that move between countries and are fairly difficult to track. Hell, I remember talking to a Kuwaiti friend a while back who couldn't understand why I found Bedouins so fascinating because, in Kuwait, they are one of the few social groups that actually rank lower than Palestinians (this also goes to show you how much love Palestinians get from other Arab countries). But, honestly, don't even try to say that Bedouins would be treated better in a Palestinian country; unfortunately it's a dying culture that governments are actively encouraging to die out.

I give up apparently all here support israel

What....are you talking about? There is plenty of people who've posted in argument against Israel. And, regardless, you actively sought a debate or did you really just want some kind of intellectual masturbatory session where everyone agreed with you and told you how great you were? If you disagree with something, provide a valid argument and counter the inevitable counters to that argument, this is called debate.

Which is unfortunate. What the US should be doing is building up a Palestinian economic sector. Soon as a country has a large enough middle class, the type of idiocy that is associated with Palestine, justified or not, begins to decline..
.....highly unlikely under the occupation.


Quoted the important bits. I think the "feudal system" the poster was talking about is the fact that both Egypt and Jordan have kings...

Jordan is indeed a monarchy, the king having extensive powers. Egypt is a dictatorship which occassionally goes through the motion of democracy.

I'm interested in how often Israeli soldiers intentionally, or suspiciously, shoot civilians in the head. Do you have sources for this? ...

On 22 November, 2002, Mr Hook was shot and killed by an Israeli sniper who may have been as close as 30 metres from his target.

The marksman was part of special forces troops who had surrounded the nearby hideout of a wanted Islamic Jihad leader.

His death - described as an unlawful killing by an inquest in Ipswich - has prompted Suffolk coroner Peter Dean to write to Prime Minister Tony Blair expressing his concern that 13 UN workers have died at the Jenin camp.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/suffolk/4529200.stm

Two girls, two shots to the head
Palestinian 15-year-olds among growing number of children hit by Israeli snipers during 'Days of Penitence'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1320735,00.html


Oh, and seriously? You're going to bring up Bedouins? No one in the Middle East respects Bedouins, and it's a terrible unfortunate thing..

.....In which case the Israeli state has more in common with its oft-castigated neighbours than many in this thread would like to admit.

I'm forced to support Israel 3 billion of my tax dollars that could be used for schools, NEW ORLEANS!!!!! and other things in the infrastructure of the USA, I find it funny it's being called a Jewish State when the US sends a national Welfare check of money and weapons to that country

So I decree they either become our 51st state and start paying taxes or I shouldnt have to show my passport since I'm paying about 42,000 a year to keep that country in existence. hell I should have my own car and house in Israel.

If Israel truly wants to be the jewish state it dreams of being...THEN LET IT SUPPORT ITSELF!!! and stop the US funding to ISRAEL!

because from a biblical stand point I thought jews werent supposed to depend on gentiles?


Israel and the Islamic world needs to achieve peace on their own, they been at peace for the past melinnia if I do remember when Granada fell to the Christians that jews retreated with the muslims and its funny that the jewish people benifited greatly from the advances of the Islamic world at it's height.......so this leaves me to believe if these people can intermarry and co exist for nearly 1200 years then they must be both being used by external forces that do not have neither the jewish people and the muslim worlds interest, KEEP EM FIGHTING SELL MORE WEAPONS!

A little off-topic but I fly to Israel in 12 days!

I don't think I need to answer the question as to why I support Israel. Everyone who has ever read my posts know that I'm a Jew and damn fucking proud of it.

Well, with a name like IDF....

Actually its the opposite. I suspect sock-puppetry

There are an awful lot of people with very few posts in this thread saying little more than "I agree" to someone else.

There are an awful lot of people with very few posts in this thread saying little more than "I agree" to someone else.

..which is what I was getting at.

Define "support".

I don't wish to see the country wiped off the map, I hope the democracy survives etc.

But I will call them on their crimes and their heinous acts, and when they sink to the level of the monsters they claim to defend themselves from.

Mind you, I reserve the right to do the same with the Palestinians. Neither side has a clear conscience in this conflict.

I don't have to justify my own support for my beloved country (a country that as the only democracy in a region full of crazy dictators and darkness, has achieved in 60 years what no other state has achieved: Turning this place of nothing but swamps and desert to a flourishing place of high tech, modern agriculture, prosperity, science and freedom for its citizens).

But here's a good reason for you to support Israel:

This problem could have been avoided by dumping the Jews on Antarctica instead of in the Middle East. And it would have been funny watching them fight against the penguins. :p

As long as there are antisemites like this one - Israel needs to get stronger and stronger.

The fact is, that the enemies of human kind always went after the Jews first.

If you want a list of reasons to support Israel, here where you can find them:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/660883/posts

http://www.jhm.org/support-israel.asp

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1965


... and many more

I don't have to justify my own support for my beloved country (a country that as the only democracy in a region full of crazy dictators and darkness, has achieved in 60 years what no other state has achieved: Turning this place of nothing but swamps and desert to a flourishing place of high tech, modern agriculture, prosperity, science and freedom for its citizens).

But here's a good reason for you to support Israel:



As long as there are antisemites like this one - Israel needs to get stronger and stronger.

The fact is, that the enemies of human kind always went after the Jews first.

If you want a list of reasons to support Israel, here where you can find them:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/660883/posts

http://www.jhm.org/support-israel.asp

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1965


... and many more

Hey, are you an actual Israeli citizen living there right now and not just a jew(ish person)? If so, good for you.

Guess what?! It's time for The Secular Resistance's weekly update!

I think I won't be wrong to state that right now I'm the only one in this forum who is in fact directly related to the issue (I'm in the IDF). If it's a mistake, do tell.

So I guess I don't have to say why I support Israel.

Man, it really sucks visiting this place only once a week or two.

Personally I support The Palestinians because it is the Zionist regime that has caused most of the problems in their area of the middle east, I say make Israel the size it was supposed to be in the begining, make a palestinian state, Democracy or not, what ever they decide to do is not my problem, make Jerusalem an international religious city so anybody Jewish, Muslim and Christian can go there and make Israel make its own money, quit supporting it when it is capable of supporting its self, but I don't think Israel should fall, since the Jews do have a right to a state and it does have civil rights even if the Jews only enjoy them, just my thoughts.

I agree that much of the problems in the Levant come, not so much from Israel per se but from a mixture of bad colonial era decisions, blatant one sided support for Israel by the west and a generous helping of absolute, blatant hypocrisy and double standards (by everyone)

If we could go back in time, I'd say don't found the nation in the first place. A Jewish homeland, yeah, but not in that region, at that time. A safe haven was needed, and the middle east wasn't the place.

However in the current circumstances I don't think the 1947 boundaries are good. The 1967 ones are better and I think everyone could agree to them if the Israelis knew that the patience and unquestioning support of the west was well and truly over and that genocide and starvation tactics are no longer seen as perfectly OK as long as it's against dirty rag heads who we don't like 'cos they're all ebil terrorists.

The only solution is to listen to the Saudis. A two state solution that both sides will accept when treated equally. As for Jerusalem, a UN no-mans-land or perhaps even an independent city state are all possible solutions, perhaps better than partition.

The real problem is going to be "safe routes" between the West Bank and Gaza, and population pressures in Gaza, and, of course, water water water. No real solutions to offer I'm afraid, just a look at the problems.

I don't expect to see a settlement in my lifetime, unless the US and Europe can change a century of bad policy decisions in Palestine.

What do people on the forum think about the "land swaps" idea, of Israel retaining certain points in the west bank and trading other parts of Israel to the Palestinians (around the borders of the Gaza Strip and the likes)?

One thing I would like to see, if the west insists on nuclear disarmament of other nations, is pressure on Isreal to completely destroy it's own nuclear stockpile and shut down it's reactors. Any pressure on other nations by the west is absolutely hypocritical as long as Isreal is known to, and allowed to get away with, a nuclear weapons programme. Either that, or shut up about other nations developing them.

I wish Israel all the best but I disagree and disapprove of America's support of Israel.

Ancient biblical claims to the region are ludicrous. Such claims are only consistent within the context of one religion or another meaning that only the Jews (me and mine) agree with the Jewish claims; only the Muslims hold to the claims of Islam; etc. Within the modern international legal framework such claims have no merit.

My personal (biased) belief is that Israel will continue to be successful and that they will do so with or without the help of the US. The US does itself a disservice in so closely allying itself with Israel. We damage any hope of bettering our image throughout the Muslim world. We make it difficult for our few Arab allies to support us and we get relatively little in return.

The reciprocity from Israel is very unbalanced in relation to what we give them and what we give up for them. The little they give in return, they give for their own reasons and those reasons would remain even if our support were to wane.

Which is unfortunate. What the US should be doing is building up a Palestinian economic sector. Soon as a country has a large enough middle class, the type of idiocy that is associated with Palestine, justified or not, begins to decline.
What....are you talking about? There is plenty of people who've posted in argument against Israel. And, regardless, you actively sought a debate or did you really just want some kind of intellectual masturbatory session where everyone agreed with you and told you how great you were? If you disagree with something, provide a valid argument and counter the inevitable counters to that argument, this is called debate.

then please explain how bush was elected.

also the second part, at first there was some support for palestine but then....
all israel
also i dont masterbaute intellectually or bodily K
also heres something i remebered some rabbis condemn israel cus its was supposed to be created when the messiah came

then please explain how bush was elected.

He won the Electoral College. Duh!

also the second part, at first there was some support for palestine but then....
all israel

Then explain why people are trying to get a Palestinian State establish? Most notably, the United States!

As long as there are antisemites like this one - Israel needs to get stronger and stronger.

The fact is, that the enemies of human kind always went after the Jews first.

If you want a list of reasons to support Israel, here where you can find them:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/660883/posts

http://www.jhm.org/support-israel.asp

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1965


... and many more

Actually - and this is true - your post made me support Israel a little bit less. Looking at the links and the websites... All I can say is, with friends like those... *shudder*

a country that as the only democracy in a region full of crazy dictators and darkness, has achieved in 60 years what no other state has achieved:


So no other state has ever reclaimed land from anything. Or built cities from nothing.


Turning this place of nothing but swamps and desert


If it was "nothing but swamps and desert" how were the Arabs able to produce enough to export, before the foundation of the Israeli state? Magic?


prosperity, science and freedom for its citizens).

Well....freedom for its citizens in theory, but possibly not all of them in practice. Also, You'll find that running apartheid statelets just across your legal borders might keep things out of site, but its a petty legalism that doesnt fool the rest of the world.



The fact is, that the enemies of human kind always went after the Jews first.


...a fact not unconnected with their long association with forward thinking liberal values and their intellectual contributions. Rather ironic that you link that as a reason to protect a state that pisses on those values from a height.....

If it was "nothing but swamps and desert" how were the Arabs able to produce enough to export, before the foundation of the Israeli state? Magic?

What exportation are you talking about?

I'm not anti-Israel. They own the country now and we can't just take it away from them. However, America and other parts of the western world shouldn't send money to Israel unless Israel has something to offer us.

What exportation are you talking about?

Agricultural produce. The majority of all Agricultural land was Arab owned and worked, and the majority of produce came from those lands. Its in the 1946 Survey taken to go towards planning the UN partition proposal.

then please explain how bush was elected.

also the second part, at first there was some support for palestine but then....
all israel
also i dont masterbaute intellectually or bodily K
also heres something i remebered some rabbis condemn israel cus its was supposed to be created when the messiah came

I'm not sure how you're linking Bush's election to anything I said in what you quoted, but feel free to explain. Your magical logic intrigues me.

Also, have you actually been reading the most recent replies? There's a fair amount of representation of both sides, with many shades of gray between so...either you missed them by accident or you did want to "masturbate" intellectually.

The Rabbis that condemn Israel are a very select minority, but yes, they're belief is that as soon as meshiach marches through the...12th gate? (someone can correct), only then can Israel be allowed to become a state. But, honestly, I'm not sure where you were going with this as it has dick all to do with any of the remotely respectable arguments that have been made.

Actually, I've noticed this, too, but it might just be because Indiana is a backward ass state, imo. People use "Oh, I got Jewed" all the time and similar comments, as if that's somehow completely socially acceptable, and I've seen this used whether or not the person speaking knows I'm Jewish. It's actually really common and really fucking stupid and even more annoying.


I'd still question when it came down to it whether they'd actually discriminate or if they're just using an expression that they're used to. It's offensive and wrong yes, but not necessarily proof of anti-semitism. People say 'welched' on a deal, coming from when the welsh weren't trusted, even though most don't know the etymology of it.


I put it like this, Israel belongs to the Jews. Muslims know this too. Abraham gave the land to the son from his wife, not the son from his concubine. It is wrong how Israel was created after WWII and how they treat Arabs that are there, but it is still their land.
And he got hold of it by invading and throwing out the existing peoples there. Aside from anything else.

I give up apparently all here support israel:confused:

Do you know what "Forum puppetry" is?

I'd still question when it came down to it whether they'd actually discriminate or if they're just using an expression that they're used to. It's offensive and wrong yes, but not necessarily proof of anti-semitism. People say 'welched' on a deal, coming from when the welsh weren't trusted, even though most don't know the etymology of it.

Yea, but I'd still call it discrimination in the passive form. Using discriminatory language that you know the etymology of has an effect on the subconscious and it's a bad effect. I honestly didn't know that about "welched", but I think it's different in that you cannot honestly say, "Oh, you really Jewed that one up," and not be aware of the connotations inherent with that statement. But, no, I agree that many of these people wouldn't (at least, I don't think and sure hope not) discriminate against someone solely on the basis of a Jewish heritage.

But if I were to say to someone who was being belligerent that they should stop being Muslim, or something, it's a safe bet to say that that would be considered fairly discriminatory (and rightly so) language, even if it's a passive form of discrimination. Also, to be honest, it's just fucking annoying. Honestly, it's not as much that it offends as it's just straight up rude and discourteous. It's one thing if it's friendly joking between close friends, but I'll never understand why people think that such jokes are acceptable in any other circumstances.

I support Israel mainly because I don't want to die.

What do I mean?

"Samson Option"

If Israel goes, we all die with them. I think that's a BAD thing.


If the US publicly tells the world "Screw you Israel"
Arabs gang up on them again.
Israel dies.

Now do they do things wrong?

Of course, but neither side seems to want it to end. They bitch about Israel cutting power to Gaza but it seems perfectly okay for Hamas to fire Rockets into Israel?

I'm sick of the double standard on both sides.

Israel can do no wrong it's all Hamas's fault or
Hamas is innocent and fighting against the oppressors it's all Israel's fault.

It's both of theirs they are BOTH wrong and pardon me when Israel attempted to be the mature one the otherside kept at it.

It's both of theirs they are BOTH wrong and pardon me when Israel attempted to be the mature one the otherside kept at it.


......"mature" seems to include building more colonies, in your definition....Its hardly the act of a side sincere on an honest peace.

They own the country now and we can't just take it away from them.Why not? They took it away from Arabs. Doing to them what they did to others is the Golden Rule, is it not?

Why not? They took it away from Arabs. Doing to them what they did to others is the Golden Rule, is it not?

so when Kosovo gets its independence should we then allow serbia to invade and retake Kosovo? after all the albanians has taken it from the serbs
should Germany be allowed to attack and retake Kalingrad(Königsberg) in East Prussia? it was theirs before.
Should Denmark be allowed to take all of Slesvig? It was ours before the german took i from us
Should Greece be allowed to take back istanbul and the smyrna area from the turks? they were once greek areas...
Should Finland have the Karelian lands back from Russia? it was finnish land before the russians took it....

I'd rather the U.S. just stop sending money to both sides, and encourage all other nations to do the same.

I bet they'd come to an agreement pretty fucking quick if the money dried up.

Why not? They took it away from Arabs. Doing to them what they did to others is the Golden Rule, is it not?

And the arabs took it away from the Byzentine Empire which was part of the original Roman Empire who took the land away from the Greeks who took it away from the Persian/Mede Empire who took it away from the Babylonian Empire. Who took it away from the Israelites.

I support Israel, although I do not support the Ethnic Cleansing that occured on 1948 as the state was created and the neighbouring Arab nations invaded.

I do also recognise the fact that Jordan used tactics of Ethnic Cleansing against the Jews in the Jewish quarter of the Old City of East Jerusalem.

However, if you have been to Israel a lot of arabs, and East Jeruselmites do say that they would live in Israel if the two-state solution is adopted, because their work, money and life is there.

Israel should eventually pull out of the Westbank and completely free Gaza. Although I believe East Jerusalem should be in Arab hands and west Jerusalem in Secular/Israeli hands, middle Jerusalem or the old city (that has the famed Holy Sepulchre and infamous Haram-al-Sharif (temple mount) and al-aksa mosque, should be like a free zone run by a neutral body (UN).
Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad should burn.

I support Israel, although I do not support the Ethnic Cleansing that occured on 1948 as the state was created and the neighbouring Arab nations invaded.

I do also recognise the fact that Jordan used tactics of Ethnic Cleansing against the Jews in the Jewish quarter of the Old City of East Jerusalem.

However, if you have been to Israel a lot of arabs, and East Jeruselmites do say that they would live in Israel if the two-state solution is adopted, because their work, money and life is there.

Israel should eventually pull out of the Westbank and completely free Gaza. Although I believe East Jerusalem should be in Arab hands and west Jerusalem in Secular/Israeli hands, middle Jerusalem or the old city (that has the famed Holy Sepulchre and infamous Haram-al-Sharif (temple mount) and al-aksa mosque, should be like a free zone run by a neutral body (UN).
Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad should burn.


A relatively sane post and a solution with only a single burning required. We need more of your sort.

I support Israel mainly because I don't want to die.What do you mean?
.
What do I mean?What do you mean?
.
"Samson Option"What the fuck is a Sansom option?
.
If Israel goes, we all die with them. I think that's a BAD thing.If Israel goes I dont Die.

What do you mean?
.
What do you mean?
.
What the fuck is a Sansom option?
.
If Israel goes I dont Die.

Nuclear weapons + national destruction = OH NOES.

What do you mean?
.
What do you mean?
.
What the fuck is a Sansom option?
.
If Israel goes I dont Die.

Read Hersh "the Samson Option" :)

Nuclear weapons + national destruction = OH NOES.meh..

Whatever that means :rolleyes:

I support Israel mainly because I don't want to die.

What do I mean?

"Samson Option"

If Israel goes, we all die with them. I think that's a BAD thing.wiki says that your smason is some Biblical personage.. So I guess this is all about the idiotic End-Times stuff.

in short...

I support Israel because the people living currently in Israel deserve to live there and I support the idea of a “national home”. That said I think that the subsequent Israeli governments have made many mistakes, to the detriment of their democracy and liberal values. Israel has no right to withhold democratic representation for Arabs, or to cut the Arab territories of from the rest of the world. I think that there have been several chances for the Israeli government to achieve peace from a position of strength, but due to the (somewhat paranoia) perceived threat from the Arabs the Israeli people have failed to do so. Israel should talk with Hamas as well as with Fatah, mainly because Hamas is the legitimate representation of the majority of Palestinians. In the long term the only way out of this conflict is the improvement of Palestinian living conditions. Because Israel is the stronger party, it can afford tobear the costs needed for normalization

meh..

Whatever that means :rolleyes:

wiki says that your smason is some Biblical personage.. So I guess this is all about the idiotic End-Times stuff.

Oh, silly OceanDrive.

Israel has nuclear weapons.

Israel does not want to be destroyed.

Israel will use its nuclear weapons if they might prevent its destruction.

End result; oh noes.

Read Hersh "the Samson Option" :)Is he like a Jewish Biblical Writer?
I dont feel like wasting anymore time on Biblical research/speculation.
Just tell us why you think we all going to die if the Jews give back their land to the Palestinians.

OD, the "Samson Option" is the name given to a supposed plan by Israel to nuke not only their opponents but everyone within reach if they ever get overwhelmed by an Arab attack. The supposed reason is (depending on who you ask):

To use the "Option" as blackmail to force Europe and the US to act as the cavalry and save Israel's ass;

To prevent anyone from giving the Arabs military aid;

or to bring about the end of the world and let God sort it all out.

I've never heard of any actual evidence for this plan existing, though.

Is he like a Jewish Biblical Writer?
I dont feel like wasting anymore time on Biblical research/speculation.
Just tell us why you think we all going to die if the Jews give back their land to the Palestinians.

Simon Hersh is a well known journalist, his writing on the development of the Israeli nuclear weapon is well informed and somewhat of a classic.

I have never heard of a plan in which Israel fires its nukes at random though, and I do not believe such a plan (in the unlikely case it existed) would be carried out.

wiki says that your smason is some Biblical personage.. So I guess this is all about the idiotic End-Times stuff.

For that sort of silly end-times stuff you need to be with the evangelical christians, not with the Israelis. Though the Jews and Israel have an important role to play in the evangelical second comming strategies I would hardly think this is a role Israeli Jews are willing to play...

I support both Israël and Palestine.
And, I'm French.

I think that they have both the right to live their, with their own countries and an access to the sea.

I do this without any religious belief, and I don't think that any biblical ( in fact, every religious crap ) element could be used to give a land to someone, this creation was a big mistake, if everyone as to give up lands to the ones who once lived here, it would be such a mess...

But now they exist and they are here.

Plus, there was no Palestinian country when Israël was created.

I remember also that without France Israël would never have survived ( do you know that USA excluded the Israeli delegation from the Olimpic games that followed the WWII, at the demand of the Saoudis ? That the IDF won it's greatest victory, the Six Days War, with mainly French equipment ?), then, we have a moral obligation to keep up the good job.

But this won't happen in our lifetime.
To much blood as been spilled, and I have a great hate for the refusal of Arafat in 2000, the only time a good solution as been created...such a waste.

And the arabs took it away from the Byzentine Empire which was part of the original Roman Empire who took the land away from the Greeks who took it away from the Persian/Mede Empire who took it away from the Babylonian Empire. Who took it away from the Israelites.
Who took it away from the Hittites and others, who I'm sure took it from others there before them.

I support both Israël and Palestine.
And, I'm French.
I think that they have both the right to live their, with their own countries and an access to the sea.ok.

I don't think that any biblical ( in fact, every religious crap ) element could be used to give a land to someone...true.
.
if everyone as to give up lands to the ones who once lived here, it would be such a mess...a big mess it is.
.
this creation was a big mistake ...true.

A mistake of Biblical proportions :D

I have never heard of a plan in which Israel fires its nukes at random though...are they (Israel) Crazy?

To much blood as been spilled, and I have a great hate for the refusal of Arafat in 2000, the only time a good solution as been created...such a waste.

The refusal of Arafat is but a myth, there was no offer... it was to little too late. Both Arafat and Barak have made major mistakes.

are they (Israel) Crazy?

Aside from the understandable paranoia that is part of Israeli policy, no :)

What do people on the forum think about the "land swaps" idea, of Israel retaining certain points in the west bank and trading other parts of Israel to the Palestinians (around the borders of the Gaza Strip and the likes)?

This is the only way it's going to work. Arafat's walkaway from discussions of that option in 2000 was a tragic error. The idea may yet be revived, but Hamas has to be destroyed first.
The refusal of Arafat is but a myth, there was no offer...
It was all over the news, I don't know how you missed it. The particular border-proposal that was on the table when he walked away was unsatisfactory in important respects (sections of the West Bank were cut off from each other, unless new and circuitous roads were built; as things stand Palestinians would have had to go through Israeli checkpoints twice, once in and once out, to get from one side to the other-- and no matter how I feel about Palestinians I can certainly understand if they never ever ever want to go through an Israeli checkpoint again!) but this was no excuse for returning to the path of violence. That was not just evil, it was also stupid, since Palestinians will always lose that way.

This is the only way it's going to work. Arafat's walkaway from discussions of that option in 2000 was a tragic error. The idea may yet be revived, but Hamas has to be destroyed first.

It was all over the news, I don't know how you missed it. The particular border-proposal that was on the table when he walked away was unsatisfactory in important respects (sections of the West Bank were cut off from each other, unless new and circuitous roads were built; as things stand Palestinians would have had to go through Israeli checkpoints twice, once in and once out, to get from one side to the other-- and no matter how I feel about Palestinians I can certainly understand if they never ever ever want to go through an Israeli checkpoint again!) but this was no excuse for returning to the path of violence. That was not just evil, it was also stupid, since Palestinians will always lose that way.

The Arafat refusal that led to the 2nd intifada is a myth, for the second intifada had already started when Sharon (as a provocation) visited the Temple mount with a massive police force. In this context barck offered an all or nothing deal, that was not adequate.

barak and arafat have messed up in Camp david... First barak made the mistake that he first negotiated with the Syrians, following his electoral mandate of peace. In the meanwhile the palestinians where left in the cold. The housing ministry was given to shas as i recall corectly, which meant more settlements. Also the roadblocks continued unabated.

Only after the failure of the Syrian talk, did barak turn to the palestinians. However during the talks, barak made no offers of his own but he let the Americans make the offers instead. This so he would make concessions before the deal was closed. Also this way no concessions could go to the Israeli press, which would cost Barak his government, for he had lost his stable majority. Arafat on the other hand wanted to go with small steps and small concessions; he did not trust Barak. And there was no or little direct contact.

The lack of trust made the camp david talks a failure... Thereafter both parties became victims of the changed reality in the streets. Sadly Arafat got blamed for the failure... Both where equally to blame...

I support Israel because there is no realistic alternative, and because the Jewish people have a claim to Jerusalem many centuries older than Muslims. Ideologically because Israel is surrounded by Islamists and they want to tighten the noose. I respect Israel because its willing to take a stand against terrorism. Also, because Israel is the underpuppy that fights like a German Shepherd.

RIGHT ON. The Six day war. I know i wouldn't mess with them.

Utopia, Sharon's visit to Temple Mount was AFTER the Arafat walkaway.

Utopia, Sharon's visit to Temple Mount was AFTER the Arafat walkaway.

The alledged walkaway was during the all or nothing deal at Taba in december, right? whereas the visit of the temple mount was in september...

There was no walk away during the camp david talks...

I don't know much of Occidental countries who don't want seriously fight the terrorism ( about the " I support Israël because they want to stand against muslim fundamentalists " even UK as stopped to protect muslims terrorists, and accepted to hand over to France the instigator of the 1995 bombings in Paris )

One thing I have absolutly forget: Israël is a democracy, in opposite of all those arabic neighbours.
A very good reason to support them.

For the Hamas, I don't think we could ignore them: if they have won LEGAL and DEMOCRATIC elections, what rights do we have to ignore them ?
They are terrorists, or at least protect a lots of them, and they are muslim fundamentalists.
Don't answer me that we have not to negociate with terrorists, yes we have all to fight them, but every country as done this, at some time ( after all, the former-Gestapo agents were gladly used by CIA, we French departed from Algeria, English gave sovereignity to Ireland, the Haganah perpetrated terrorists acts against UK before the creation of Israël...) Hamas is not the same thing as Al-Qaeda.

And, yes, the question is open, about the rights a democratic country have to defend itself, it's an unclosed case.

As I come from Jewish blood (my grandfather is Jewish, which means I'm like 50% Spanish, 25% Irish/German and 25% Semitic) I know the secrets of Judaism. I support Israel because Jews always seem to have a lot of money. Here in Spain a large percentage of the banking system is controlled by 'Jews' (probably most don't believe in God anymore and Spaniards just call them Jews for hatred purposes). Given that fact, I think it would be far more profitable for me to support the Jews given that the Arabs have little to offer in the area of economic prosperity. Except maybe Dubai (I don't know about the rest of the United Arab Emirates, though), which is probably ran by pseudo-Jews anyways.

Speaking of Israel's WMDs...

So, did they ever resolve that whistleblower/traitor (depends) Mordechai Vanunu (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu) yet?

Speaking of Israel's WMDs...

So, did they ever resolve that whistleblower/traitor (depends)depends of what?

The alledged walkaway was during the all or nothing deal at Taba in december, right?
No, from Camp David the previous summer. There was no chance of getting anything done at Taba, since Clinton and Barak were both going out of office.

Israël is a democracy... A very good reason to support them.If I Must support The Gov of Israel they had democratic elections.. Then I must support Hamas, Chavez, Hitler... possibly Bush.. and that French President who loves -so much- to kiss American ass.

depends of what?

Depends on wheter you see him as a traitor or whistleblower.

It was all over the news, I don't know how you missed it. The particular border-proposal that was on the table when he walked away was unsatisfactory in important respects (sections of the West Bank were cut off from each other, unless new and circuitous roads were built; as things stand Palestinians would have had to go through Israeli checkpoints twice, once in and once out, to get from one side to the other-- and no matter how I feel about Palestinians I can certainly understand if they never ever ever want to go through an Israeli checkpoint again!) but this was no excuse for returning to the path of violence. That was not just evil, it was also stupid, since Palestinians will always lose that way.See, that was not a serious offer. It was an alibi offer that the Jews knew the Arabs could not accept. And what do you mean by "returning to the path of violence" ?? The people of Israel is very much on a path of violence by keeping Gaza under control and the West Bank under occupation and expanding Jewish settlements there. Palestinians have every right to strike back.

If I Must support The Gov of Israel they had democratic elections.. Then I must support Hamas, Chavez, Hitler... possibly Bush.. and that French President who loves -so much- to kiss American ass.

Oh yes I agree about this little Sarkozy, hope that after him my country would be cured of conservatives for some years...I have the right to dream...

That was what I said: the issue is an unclosed case, does democratic must accept non-democratic came to power with elections ?
Personnaly, I think not, but it's such a problem..and not the case here.

The Jews colonies are an untolerable action, this, I totaly agree, this is blatant provocation and military invasion.

Mordechai Vanunu is a very brave men, who have accepted to show the proofs that Israël was deliberetly breaking the international laws about nuclear programs...yes it could be seen as treason.

See, that was not a serious offer.
Of course it was. If the other side didn't like it, they needed to make a counteroffer.
And what do you mean by "returning to the path of violence" ??
Pointless random murders.
Palestinians have every right to strike back.
I will not dignify their murders as "striking back"; it is a random lashing out, indulging base instincts. It does not in any way contribute to protecting any Palestinians from violence at the hands of Israelis, so it cannot be classed as "self-defense". And you seem to be under the impression that it was a response to the occupation: on the contrary, the occupation was a response to their terrorism, which did not start in 1967 or in 1948, but had been going for decades earlier.

the two state solution doesnt seem to be working, what if the palestinians and israels lived and a democratic nation together where the parliament was made of lawmakers from both peoples. There would be no argument of Jerusalem since everyone would have and the would almost be a palestinian majority. The 1 state solution would allow both peoples to have a voice. There would be peace.

I'm not anti-semitic or anything(i'm part Jewish)but I think Israel is one of the most evil nations in existence!It goes around killing palestinians and claiming land that isn't theirs.Hell!,even the territory Israel is made from isn't theirs!And how dare they still pull that whole "we were the victims of the Holocaust" card when they're not far from doing the same thing to the palestinians!

I support Israel because it is the land of the LORD and his chosen people. Only heathens would support the infidel muslims. You will all have your place in the lake of fire, but I shall pray for your soul that God may reveal himself unto you.

the two state solution doesnt seem to be working, what if the palestinians and israels lived and a democratic nation together where the parliament was made of lawmakers from both peoples. There would be no argument of Jerusalem since everyone would have and the would almost be a palestinian majority. The 1 state solution would allow both peoples to have a voice. There would be peace.

How can the two state solution not be working when there aren't two states? Please don't tell me you consider Gaza to be a fully independent nation?

I support Israel because it is the land of the LORD and his chosen people. Only heathens would support the infidel muslims. You will all have your place in the lake of fire, but I shall pray for your soul that God may reveal himself unto you.

WTF?

WTF?

A thread on the middle east invariably acts much like soapy water poured onto earth.....

I'm not anti-semitic or anything(i'm part Jewish)but I think Israel is one of the most evil nations in existence!It goes around killing palestinians and claiming land that isn't theirs.Hell!,even the territory Israel is made from isn't theirs!And how dare they still pull that whole "we were the victims of the Holocaust" card when they're not far from doing the same thing to the palestinians!

Define "isn't theirs".

Seriously. They're living on land that has been in their possession for more than two generations. The people who took that land are either dead or too old for governance; and they've defended that land in three wars.

By any reasonable reading of history, they've done everything necessary to claim Israel as their own. Exactly the same as the Normans in England, the Franks in France, the Turks in Turkey or the British in Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

It's not a nice concept. But "nice" and "fair" aren't concepts that are worth considering in international politics.

3 wars.

...they've done everything necessary...

It's not a nice concept. But "nice" and "fair" aren't concepts that are worth considering in international politics.(you say Might is right) Hitler would agree with you I am sure

They're living on land that has been in their possession for more than two generations. The people who took that land are either dead or too old for governance; The families still exist and wait in refugee camps for their return while Israel continues its Colonization of Palestine. Injustice does not become justice with the passage of time. The Arabs' right to self determination was violated by the Jews, the British, and the UN. That's unacceptable. Israel must be dissolved.

israel are allowed to do whatever they want in the middle east. and its not fair i have sympathies with both causes but fatah are the only ones who can solve this problem

btw i meant negotiate im not an islamic fundamentalist

btw i meant negotiate im not an islamic fundamentalistthere is no-one to negotiate with. israel has never had any interest in giving the palestinians anything. hence the settlement continues.

actually what i support is peace, infrastructure, harmoney with nature, and not distroying each other's nor each other. more so then any soverign nation or even any concept of any such thing as the soverignty of any nation.

"glory not in this that you love your (or any) country, glory in this, that you love 'man'(sentient)kind!"

=^^=
.../\...

there is no-one to negotiate with. israel has never had any interest in giving the palestinians anything. hence the settlement continues.

I'd be inclined to agree. However, my belief that there at least some decent people in Israel was restored somewhat. On Al Jazeera English this morning there was a programme on Amira Hass, the Israeli journalist. If there people like her in power in Israel, then much could be achieved. As it is, too many people in the Knesset only want war, either for their own ends, or for ideology. Isreal is essentially a military state. It exists for the IDF, not vice versa.

Define "isn't theirs".

Seriously. They're living on land that has been in their possession for more than two generations. The people who took that land are either dead or too old for governance; and they've defended that land in three wars.

By any reasonable reading of history, they've done everything necessary to claim Israel as their own. Exactly the same as the Normans in England, the Franks in France, the Turks in Turkey or the British in Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

It's not a nice concept. But "nice" and "fair" aren't concepts that are worth considering in international politics.

I agree.