NationStates Jolt Archive

I mean everyone says they do because its potically correct and the like, but at the end of the day, do you really care? why or why not?

Yes.

Yes, and no. In my heart I care for the suffering of people world wide. But, in the same sense, of lot of what happens in Africa doesn't directly affect me.

I don't really care about Kentucky, Ohio, Illinois, or Michigan. So Africa is pretty much right out. I think it's interesting, but don't really care. Following the happenings there is always fascinating. Caring though? Eh, not really.

Such a beautiful continent going to waste upsets me, yes. Do I think that my tax money should go to helping Africans? No.

Eh, no.

No cultural, historical, geographical, political ties, miniscule economical ties... might as well be "do you care about Mars?".

Yes. Or at least I hope I do. I can't really tell whether I'm just being politically correct or sincere. But if I had the chance to do something on a large enough scale, I would do it (as long as I didn't have to go over there due to my extreme fear of insects)

I care about Africa in the same sense that a rich billionaire cares about his workers in China...only with the sexual temptation that only comes from national geographic

I man-care about Africa :cool:

Do I think that my tax money should go to helping Africans? No.

what tax money?! :p

They already receive foreign aid from everywhere, including my nation and it's not right. I'd rather see the money go to buildings things here.

They already receive foreign aid from everywhere, including my nation and it's not right. I'd rather see the money go to buildings things here.

so you admit you don't actually pay any taxes :p

I would also like to see where Africa has been finding all my money and how I can get me some

They already receive foreign aid from everywhere, including my nation and it's not right. I'd rather see the money go to buildings things here.

Where is here? In the developed world, I am assuming. I am sure we have enough buildings here, while they have huts, or makeshift shacks. Yep, not right to give money.

I care greatly about Africa.

But I also care about the nation I presently reside in, and there's plenty of sores to be healed here as there are in Africa, so i'm not active in any humanitarian aide for Africa or anything. Regardless, I care immensely about the comings and goings of Africa. I firmly believe that, Africa being the cradle of the genesis of humanity, as goes Africa, so goes us all.

Call to power, hell yes I pay taxes.

Zilam, I'm saying that I would rather see the money go towards providing services for the needy here instead of in Africa.

Call to power, hell yes I pay taxes.

you say that as though its a good thing?

:eek: I had a feeling you was a commie!!!1

Zilam, I'm saying that I would rather see the money go towards providing services for the needy here instead of in Africa.

the homeless "here" are suffering a brutal civil war :confused:

of course naturally like social programs foreign aid helps reduce things like terrorism and improves relations whilst making us all richer

the amount of money they pour into it, and nothing really seems to change.

we should just let nature take its course

Such a beautiful continent going to waste upsets me, yes. Do I think that my tax money should go to helping Africans? No.

But, in the same sense, of lot of what happens in Africa doesn't directly affect me.

Eh, no.

No cultural, historical, geographical, political ties, miniscule economical ties... might as well be "do you care about Mars?".

The following quotes pretty much sums up my feeling about Africa.

Call to power, hell yes I pay taxes.

Zilam, I'm saying that I would rather see the money go towards providing services for the needy here instead of in Africa.

Needy are needy. It doesn't matter if they are here or there or anywhere. They are needy, and we have the means to help both our needy and other needy around the world. Granted we have to give up nice big war machine spending, but it is possible.

I could care less about Africa. I am however amused by the various African government officials that run around claiming AIDS can be cured by garlic and lemon rinds.

The following quotes pretty much sums up my feeling about Africa.

Don't get me wrong. When I said a lot of what happens there doesn't affect me, I meant going along the lines of their politics. I should have clarified. But I stand by my original statement of how much my heart cares for those people.

the amount of money they pour into it, and nothing really seems to change.

we should just let nature take its course

the "amount" of money "poured" into Africa is irrelevant. You could throw millions of dollars at a kid, but if you don't teach them how to wisely invest/spend that money, they're going to blow it on nothing.

what we need to do is set up NGO's or even government services to properly channel the money to where it needs to go, and teach the African governments how to utilize those funds in order to obtain their full benefit.

I wasn't even thinking about it until I saw this thread.
So my answer is probably a "No".

A nation should take care of it's own is the whole point. I don't mind paying taxes to help others in my community. I don't expect Brazilians to send aid to needy Americans. I don't think it's our responsibility to send aid to anywhere until there is no needy here.

Take up the white man's burden,
the savage wars of peace,
Fill the mouths of famine,
And bid the sickness cease,
And when your goal is nearest,
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen folly,
Bring all your hope to naught.

The White Man's Burden by Rudyard Kipling.

No, not really, Africa is simply going through growing pains much in the same way Europe and the Americas did. Give the place twenty or so years, and things will sort themselves out, as either the population will run low enough that war becomes infeasible, or a winner from each war will be established.

Don't get me wrong. When I said a lot of what happens there doesn't affect me, I meant going along the lines of their politics. I should have clarified. But I stand by my original statement of how much my heart cares for those people.

Yea I agree, what's happening to the people is horrible, but honestly I don't lose sleep over it, and I don't exactly donate my money to every starving African child.

I do care.

Why? I don't know. However, I would do nearly anything to help Africa out of the depression its in because of the Europeans. Yes, the Europeans. The Europeans screwed up Africa and then left it leaderless.

India would've been the same if they didn't revolt when they did. In fact, the United States may have been the same, too.

I do care.

Why? I don't know. However, I would do nearly anything to help Africa out of the depression its in because of the Europeans. Yes, the Europeans. The Europeans screwed up Africa and then left it leaderless.

India would've been the same if they didn't revolt when they did. In fact, the United States may have been the same, too.

Hear hear! But the United States has its hands in the African quagmire too you know. Let's not forget about the Liberia mess.

I mean everyone says they do because its potically correct and the like, but at the end of the day, do you really care? why or why not?

Yes, I really do care. My conscience will not allow me to do anything less.

Where is here? In the developed world, I am assuming. I am sure we have enough buildings here, while they have huts, or makeshift shacks. Yep, not right to give money.

Maybe they should get off their asses and build their own buildings then. Nobody had to hold our hands and build ours for us.

Hear hear! But the United States has its hands in the African quagmire too you know. Let's not forget about the Liberia mess.

The USA has messed up a lot of regions/countries/races. Let's just be a little nice for now and...overlook their blame.

It's everyone else's fault. That's Western logic for third world problems in the modern era.

That's just excuses and they are working less and less all the time.

It's everyone else's fault. That's third world logic for third world problems in the modern era.Fixed.

Nope, it's always self-loathing Westerners who are the first to blame the West for all the problems in Africa. Not the people actually causing the problems. It's always something that happened in the past that's responsible, not the corrupt leaders of Africa.

The USA has messed up a lot of regions/countries/races. Let's just be a little nice for now and...overlook their blame.

You took that straight out of the Bush Manifesto, didn't you? :p

I saw a video once, about these young ladies in Africa basically walking around with their uterus falling out due to poor medical care and botched procedures, I felt really bad for them.....I don't remember exactly what the problem was, but I remember they said they were outcasts because of the bleeding and stuff and weren't allowed treatment. I saw another show about Africa and these women were beat badly by their husbands and nothing really happened, because the women "must have deserved it", so it really bothered me. I feel bad for them, I wish I could help more, I am not sure what to do (other than adopting some orphans or sending money somewhere)

I mean everyone says they do because its potically correct and the like, but at the end of the day, do you really care? why or why not?

No, because right now those finals are more significant in my life. And girls...hell, I'm trying too hard. Perhaps if I did care about Africa that part of my life would be easier.

You took that straight out of the Bush Manifesto, didn't you? :p

Of course I did. I wrote it.

Man this thread is depressing.

Hear hear! But the United States has its hands in the African quagmire too you know. Let's not forget about the Liberia mess.

Pre-1989 Liberia wasn't governed any better or any worse than any of the African countries under colonialism were.

I care, I care!

Actually, like most people, I think primarily of my own concerns. But, I'm aware that what affects others will, in some way, affect me. The results of colonialism in Africa are hideous and they do affect me and my country, so, if only for selfish reasons, I care what happens to the people and will do what is in my power to help. To that end, I try to support sustainable agriculture, I contribute to things like Heifer, International and Whole Planet, things that are geared towards making them self-sufficient and not geared towards interfering with their culture.

I care about African affairs in the sense that they are people and all people deserve a certain level of common human decency, but I honestly don't lose sleep over things that happen over there. On the list of regions I care about Africa probably ranks at the bottom.

Nothing that happens over there affects my life and I don't know anyone in the region, so I can't really connect emotionally. I really think the only way Africa is going to improve though is if the Africans are primarily solving their own problems with other regions only acting as mediators.

Pre-1989 Liberia wasn't governed any better or any worse than any of the African countries under colonialism were.

uhm, you do realize Liberia was created by an American company named the American Colonization Society that paid to ship freed slaves from America to Africa, to a nation that they named Liberia. They then failed to set up a properly working government to govern Liberia, because they pretty much didn't give a shit, so long as the blacks who couldn't pick cotton for free were out of America. So, uh, yeah, America has its hands pretty dirty with Africa, especially Liberia, and its consequent proceeding history.

I saw a video once, about these young ladies in Africa basically walking around with their uterus falling out due to poor medical care and botched procedures, I felt really bad for them.....
...
I feel bad for them, I wish I could help more, I am not sure what to do ...Email any executive/congress/Parliament candidates that you are aware of and ask them what do they think about a ban on farm subsidies -and other unfair trade practices- to help the very people you saw on that video.
Since its basically the same copy-pasted Email you are going to mass-mail them all.. Its should take 30-45 minutes once a year.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0416-06.htm
The experience of New Zealand and Australia demonstrates that farmers can survive and thrive without significant state subsidies...
6. A More Hospitable World
The collective effect of American farm policies is to depress the income of agricultural producers worldwide, exacerbating poverty in areas, such as sub-Saharan Africa and Central Asia, where people are heavily dependent on agriculture.

The frustration and despair caused by these policies undermine American security. Many people who depend on agriculture for their survival, both as a source of nourishment and a means of acquiring wealth, perceive U.S. farm policy as part of an anti-American narrative in which Washington wants to keep the rest of the world locked in poverty. Indeed, in a survey of anti-American sentiment around the world, the Pew Research Center found a majority of respondents in more than a dozen countries were convinced that U.S. farm and trade policies increased the "poverty gap" worldwide.
http://www.reason.com/news/show/36207.htmlUS blamed as trade talks end in acrimony
July 24 2006 23:13 The world trade talks that were supposed to relieve poverty and improve economic growth collapsed into indefinite suspension on Monday, after nearly five years of protracted wrangling.

A last-ditch meeting in Geneva of the six core “Doha round” negotiators – India, Brazil, the US, EU, Japan and Australia – broke up amid recriminations over irreconcilable differences about farm liberalisation. The US continued to argue for big cuts in farm import tariffs to open up markets for its farmers, a demand fiercely rejected by the European Union, Japan and India, which said America had first to go further in offering to cut agricultural subsidies.

The Doha round, which began in November 2001, will now enter indefinite suspension unless and until a consensus within the World Trade Organisation’s 149 member countries can be found to revive it.

The White House’s authority from the US Congress to negotiate trade deals expires next year. Most experts and officials think Congress unlikely to renew that authority, rendering any near-term agreement impossible.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dfa460d0-1afd-11db-b164-0000779e2340.html?nclick_check=1

okay I guess I'm going to have to try and be serious now

the amount of money they pour into it, and nothing really seems to change.

clap-trap only countries like Norway and Denmark are really putting money into Africa, the rest of the planet just seems to enjoy playing loan shark forcing Africa to privatize to an insane degree (otherwise no help from WTO)

the reason nothing changes (though it does) is because Africans have been labeled savages in the modern world thanks the twisted game of intercontinental monopoly that seems to be played

I don't think it's our responsibility to send aid to anywhere until there is no needy here.

yes because if other nations become wealthy that means nothing, after all its not like you can say fight terrorism or gain some rich trading partners :rolleyes:

though I will be noting that next time America is in the mud the African trade organization can give massive loans like candy with no intention of improving things because its only fair

Yes, the Europeans. The Europeans screwed up Africa and then left it leaderless.

yes because Africa hasn't been fucked over the past 50 odd years at all!

India would've been the same if they didn't revolt when they did.

look everyone I guy who knows what hes talking about!

oh wait a minuet there....isn't India that country that suffers from high levels of poverty, illiteracy, malnutrition, environmental degradation and the threat of nuclear war at any minuet

also: Canada, Australia, Hong Kong, Cyprus, Malta, Barbados, Antigua and Barbuda, Tanzania, South Africa, Maldives, Mauritius, Seychelles, United Arab Emirates, Oman, Brunei etc

That's just excuses and they are working less and less all the time.

source?

Nope, it's always self-loathing Westerners who are the first to blame the West for all the problems in Africa. Not the people actually causing the problems. It's always something that happened in the past that's responsible, not the corrupt leaders of Africa.

who we install like we did with Idi Amin

Nobody propped up Europe. The Africans need to do everything by themselves. Our constantly giving them money isn't solving anything. It's simply enabling them to do nothing.

The only way that Africa will become anything more than a shit infested cesspool is if we just pull out and isolate them completely. No money, no food, no nothing. The populations are overgrown and disease ridden, and only by allowing nature to take its course will the populations be in any shape to actually build nations. Sure, there will be blood baths and genocide, but the same thing happened during Europe's development.

Really, the only people responsible for Africa being a shit hole are the Africans and the whiny fucks that keep trying to play mommy to all the world's unfortunate.

I know that there are plenty of horrible things happening in Africa, such as the Darfur genocide, AIDS, drought, and poverty. But do I lose sleep over it? No. I am not emotional about tragedies of people I don't know, even if I realize they are tragedies and should be helped. (I do try to give to charities that help, and would support the US using its sway to get things done. But I'm not sad if these don't come to fruition.)

yes because Africa hasn't been fucked over the past 50 odd years at all!

Actually, it has. The Europeans and the Americans screwed it up, the Muslims screwed it up, and now there are dictators everywhere with no help from the powerful nations.

We can safely say that the people living in the continent known as Africa have been screwed over by a handful of powerful men and women.

oh wait a minuet there....isn't India that country that suffers from high levels of poverty, illiteracy, malnutrition, environmental degradation and the threat of nuclear war at any minuet

And how many African countries can be called a potential Superpower or at least a Nuclear Nation?

Nobody propped up Europe.

yeah all that Gold, labor, territory and knowledge was ours!

The Africans need to do everything by themselves. Our constantly giving them money isn't solving anything. It's simply enabling them to do nothing.

too bad we aren't "constantly giving them money" then, maybe for a change Africa should stop giving us money...

The only way that Africa will become anything more than a shit infested cesspool is if we just pull out and isolate them completely. No money, no food, no nothing. The populations are overgrown and disease ridden, and only by allowing nature to take its course will the populations be in any shape to actually build nations.

yeah that has always worked when dealing with poverty...ignoring problems so they go away FTW!

Sure, there will be blood baths and genocide, but the same thing happened during Europe's development.

yes South Korea's rapid recovery was built upon the bones of orphans!

Really, the only people responsible for Africa being a shit hole are the Africans

I bet they like paying debt!

and the whiny fucks that keep trying to play mommy to all the world's unfortunate.

yeah and when there kids start asking why they have it so bad compared to the west they will have those nice religious leaders tell them to blow up our buses and such

and then we get to stomp over them all over again!

Actually, it has. The Europeans and the Americans screwed it up, the Muslims screwed it up, and now there are dictators everywhere with no help from the powerful nations.

I was using sarcasm there but thanks for arguing with yourself :D

We can safely say that the people living in the continent known as Africa have been screwed over by a handful of powerful men and women.

what we should do is un-screw them :)

And how many African countries can be called a potential Superpower or at least a Nuclear Nation?

how many African countries have an area of 1,269,346 square miles or a population of 1.12 billion?

or more on point are you saying a country that decides to spend money on nuclear arms whilst its people live in poverty is a good thing?

what we should do is un-screw them :)


But screwing is fun..:(

Really, the only people responsible for Africa being a shit hole are the Africans and the whiny fucks that keep trying to play mommy to all the world's unfortunate.

You don't make any sense at all, you were just defending colonization which is the opposite of what your saying right now

So you do admit colonizatin screwed up Africa?

Yes, and no. In my heart I care for the suffering of people world wide. But, in the same sense, of lot of what happens in Africa doesn't directly affect me.

ditto. i empathise and would like to see things improve. i hate the idea of such inequality and suffering... but then, i have bills to pay, and a life to live, and i can't pay 'em if i'm worrying about Africa all the time.

And how many African countries can be called a potential Superpower or at least a Nuclear Nation?

What exactly was that supposed to prove? I don't consider nuclear weapons an accomplishment.

ditto. i empathise and would like to see things improve. i hate the idea of such inequality and suffering... but then, i have bills to pay, and a life to live, and i can't pay 'em if i'm worrying about Africa all the time.

ditto on your ditto. I can't express myself better then you just did. You must be telopathic:eek:

Basicly the white people tried pretty hard to make others dependant

In response to Call to Power's latest posts:

Yes, all of that gold, labor, territory and knowledge WAS ours... because we claimed it as ours. Fact: If you take it and no one knocks you to the ground and takes it back, its yours. Sounds childish, but such is international politics.

We are giving them money. Money in the form of aid packages and other projects that are supposed to be going towards building those countries up. Too bad its squandered due to corruption and mishandling.

It is also not ignoring the problem to let them figure things out on their own. If you have the nerve to declare yourself an independent nation, you had better start acting like it. Under the three principles of sovereignty, it is effectively stated that the only nation responsible for your nation is yours. If you can't stand up on your own, you will be absorbed into a nation that can manage it.

South Korea may not be directly built upon the bones of orphans, but its certainly built upon the bodies of dead Chinese volunteer soldiers and North Korean soldiers. Without that bloodbath, South Korea wouldn't exist... it'd be called Korea.

If Africa knew how to take care of its finances and figure out how to run their countries, they might not have so much debt. Hell, the mineral and manpower resources alone could be harnessed to get the economies of those nations moving at the pace where they could possibly pay off their debts. Fact of the matter is, they don't or can't figure it out.

Also, its hard to be angry at another country when you're too broke to afford TV or radio. It's also really hard to conduct suicide bombings when you can't scrape together the money for plane tickets.

Basicly the white people tried pretty hard to make others dependant

I guess thats the excuse used for people milking welfare programs until they're bone dry. "They made me dependent on those programs!" No, it's because you didn't get off your fat lazy arse and get your affairs in order that you can't support yourself on your own.

I guess thats the excuse used for people milking welfare programs until they're bone dry. "They made me dependent on those programs!" No, it's because you didn't get off your fat lazy arse and get your affairs in order that you can't support yourself on your own.

So you agree with me that African affaires should have been left alone

I like how this thread changed direction when I got serious *wakes up half naked in a ditch with no idea what happened*

Basicly the white people tried pretty hard to make others dependant

I would say more "have no idea what was doing or why" what with all the policy changes over the centuries, but hey at least Africa and India have large Christian populations now

weird how Imperialism is summed up by just making a general mess of things :p

I guess thats the excuse used for people milking welfare programs until they're bone dry. "They made me dependent on those programs!" No, it's because you didn't get off your fat lazy arse and get your affairs in order that you can't support yourself on your own.

See: Poor by choice? thread.

So you agree with me that African affaires should have been left alone

Yeah, I agree. I also think we should stay out of everyone else's affairs as well. Now, if someone wants to trade, we trade. If someone wants us to bail them out of their own mess, life sucks... get over it.

This is Mansa Musa, king of the legendary west African empire of Mali

A Spanish map of him holding an orb of gold
http://www.endingstereotypes.org/image001.jpg

He was so rich that when he passed through Cario on an epic trip he gave away so much gold Cario's ecomony experienced hyper inflation for 20 years

So colonization and destruction of these kingdoms a bad thing or is it a good thing Africa is dependant on us, it's one or the other

Yeah, I agree. I also think we should stay out of everyone else's affairs as well. Now, if someone wants to trade, we trade. If someone wants us to bail them out of their own mess, life sucks... get over it.

And then you and I agree :p

Yes, all of that gold, labor, territory and knowledge WAS ours... because we claimed it as ours. Fact: If you take it and no one knocks you to the ground and takes it back, its yours. Sounds childish, but such is international politics.

no I was talking more the colonial exploitation that made colonial Europe all that jazz (as a response to something or other which I forget)

We are giving them money. Money in the form of aid packages and other projects that are supposed to be going towards building those countries up. Too bad its squandered due to corruption and mishandling.

so tell me in your own words why do Norway and Iceland manage to trance the world so badly?

It is also not ignoring the problem to let them figure things out on their own. If you have the nerve to declare yourself an independent nation, you had better start acting like it. Under the three principles of sovereignty, it is effectively stated that the only nation responsible for your nation is yours. If you can't stand up on your own, you will be absorbed into a nation that can manage it.

oooh how imperialist, lets look at how ignoring problems has worked shall we...well there is Pakistan...and Zimbabwe stopped taking aid years ago

hmmm and you' know when we did large investment plans in Germany and Japan things improved

South Korea may not be directly built upon the bones of orphans, but its certainly built upon the bodies of dead Chinese volunteer soldiers and North Korean soldiers. Without that bloodbath, South Korea wouldn't exist... it'd be called Korea.

...erm we are talking development here not "how we saved the day" (which also ties in with massive help rebuilding)

If Africa knew how to take care of its finances and figure out how to run their countries, they might not have so much debt.

well:

1) to grow you need investment to bring...investors and generally help business with highways and such (hence why Hong Kong has done so well)

2) to get the loans the country must jump through some outrages hoops as the WTO and IMF demand privatization

Hell, the mineral and manpower resources alone could be harnessed to get the economies of those nations moving at the pace where they could possibly pay off their debts. Fact of the matter is, they don't or can't figure it out.

oooh so now your saying Africa has things like famine and debt because they are lazy...tell me what magical spell is it that casts money and manpower, you' know the one that stops foreign supplied rebels or the ones making a fortune on illegal enterprises (think diamond trade)

awfully easy isn't it to say that sitting in a chair

Also, its hard to be angry at another country when you're too broke to afford TV or radio. It's also really hard to conduct suicide bombings when you can't scrape together the money for plane tickets.

thats why you never hear any trouble from the middle east, oh wait Saudi oil tycoons seems to finance them, good thing places like Nigeria don't have oil then phew

I guess thats the excuse used for people milking welfare programs until they're bone dry.

who? source?

"They made me dependent on those programs!" No, it's because you didn't get off your fat lazy arse and get your affairs in order that you can't support yourself on your own.

let me guess you have never had to worry about money

I don't really care about Kentucky, Ohio, Illinois, or Michigan. So Africa is pretty much right out. I think it's interesting, but don't really care. Following the happenings there is always fascinating. Caring though? Eh, not really.

That's pretty much my feelings on it too. I may be intellectually interested in it, but emotionally I really don't care much about those beyond the borders of my state. I care a bit for France, but that's about it.

So you agree with me that African affaires should have been left alone

Yeah, I agree. I also think we should stay out of everyone else's affairs as well. Now, if someone wants to trade, we trade. If someone wants us to bail them out of their own mess, life sucks... get over it.

too bad the affairs of the world affect the world then

So you agree with me that African affaires should have been left aloneYes.. Africa should have always been left alone, no colonialism, no massive ens-slaving.

To answer the question whether I care enough to endorse my taxes being spent on Africa, the answer is no. Actually, the answer to whether I really care is pretty much no as well; provided they make me coffee and whatever else it is they do, I really couldn't care less.

To answer the question whether I care enough to endorse my taxes being spent on Africa, the answer is no. Actually, the answer to whether I really care is pretty much no as well; provided they make me coffee and whatever else it is they do, I really couldn't care less.

the knowledge of Africa speaks wonders of your opinion :p

the knowledge of Africa speaks wonders of your opinion :p

At least I'm honest. ;)

Yes.. Africa should have always been left alone, no colonialism, no massive ens-slaving.

Protip: The slaves were slaves before they were sold to Europeans. If you didn't notice, the tribes were constantly at war and always took people home as war spoils. Slavery isn't a problem caused or continued by the Europeans. It's a problem caused and continued by the same Africans that can't take the initiative to run their own countries, practice birth control, or try farming something other than dirt.

If you didn't notice,...No i didnt notice because I was not there.




BTW... by the time I was 13 years old I figured History is written by the Victors/Powerful.. not the Vanquished/en-slaved.

Protip: The slaves were slaves before they were sold to Europeans. If you didn't notice, the tribes were constantly at war and always took people home as war spoils.

no, it became profitable to launch Slave raids on other tribes for the profits that where made selling people

thus slavery became a way of life

It's a problem caused and continued by the same Africans that can't take the initiative to run their own countries

oddly when people do try to run their own affairs like lets say Valenzuela or Russia they are branded evil

practice birth control

complete the sentence "The Catholic church is..."

try farming something other than dirt.

source? oh and I detect some mouth foaming going on

To the extent of normal empathy. I don't lose sleep over it. And most of what happens there is unchangeable.

no, it became profitable to launch Slave raids on other tribes for the profits that where made selling people
Nevermind that they were doing it well before it was profitable.

thus slavery became a way of life
It already was.

oddly when people do try to run their own affairs like lets say Valenzuela or Russia they are branded evil
But yet Venezuela and Russia are perfectly functioning nations. Funny how that works out.

complete the sentence "The Catholic church is..."
The biggest stain on humanity since Judaism.

source? oh and I detect some mouth foaming going on
Tell me, where exactly are all the desert nations getting their food? Don't try to pin it on imports either, since the Arabs and North African nations like Egypt and Carthage were quite able to prosper in classical times just fine.

Foreign aid is an abhorrent use of taxpayer money. Charity is not a public institution.

Nevermind that they were doing it well before it was profitable.

go ahead show me this slave trade that was set up before European colonialism

It already was.

...well done I feel like a few braincells died then

profit and way of life go together like 'the farmers way of life' or 'the dentists way of life' now tell me how does one have an un-profitable way of life? stealing golden eggs from giants maybe?

But yet Venezuela and Russia are perfectly functioning nations. Funny how that works out.

wow...you just called Russia perfectly functioning

The biggest stain on humanity since Judaism.

I hope you mean that in an Atheist way

Tell me, where exactly are all the desert nations getting their food? Don't try to pin it on imports either, since the Arabs and North African nations like Egypt and Carthage were quite able to prosper in classical times just fine.

1) Egypt and Carthage did not consist of desert (Egyptian farming was based on flood plains of the Nile)

2) desert nations are not Africa but I will go ahead anyway: nobody lives in the dessert a few nomad traders but other than that no (hence why people die quickly when they got lost in the desert)

Foreign aid is an abhorrent use of taxpayer money. Charity is not a public institution.

why not when it benefits the whole public greatly (thus returning investment by lowering taxes à la national Health service)

"End Poverty, Eat an African?"

"End Poverty, Eat an African?"

wouldn't that mean you absorb all the debt though?

expensive eating I say

wouldn't that mean you absorb all the debt though?

expensive eating I say

Argh...blasted trickle-down economics.

I mean everyone says they do because its potically correct and the like, but at the end of the day, do you really care? why or why not?

AFrica is where humanity started and Africans were the first humans, so as respect to our ancestors, yes.

AFrica is where humanity started and Africans were the first humans, so as respect to our ancestors, yes.

Prove it. :p

wouldn't that mean you absorb all the debt though?

expensive eating I say

A disturbing thought. And here I was planning on eating someone's brain to gain their power. Little did I know I'd gain their debt as well.

Actually, I kinda do.

This poll should be public. :(

As for America poking its nose into the affairs of other countries, I tend to remember that we've had two well-defined instances of that occurring to our country and resulting in war (Revolutionary War and the War of 1812). Its pretty naive to believe that we can stick our nose into the business of other countries and expect different results (that would qualify as the definition of insanity).

As for world affairs affecting the world... in other news, the sky is blue and water is wet. Of course world affairs will affect the world, but we don't need to be interfering in the affairs of foreign nations in order for those foreign nations to survive. They made it clear upon declaring independence that they were ready to work without a net, I think it is a safe assumption that they don't need to be led around like a lost child. America is not the mother of the world, nor should we nurse those nations incapable of surviving on their own back to health. If you aren't ready to face the world, you shouldn't of refused to suckle on the breast that was colonial administration.

Now on to the points. I'm going to use an example you brought up in passing to solve most of the issues brought up, Call to power:

Japan, prior to modernization in the late 1800s, was a feudal society utilizing samurai soldiers outfitted with swords and wooden armor to conduct warfare. They had no industry... nothing! European and American powers came to Japan later in the 19th century and trade provided the means by which Japan could modernize... but that is only one piece of the pie. Japan also had a strong, competent administration that could handle the transition from the feudal society to industrial society within a matter of decades. That is not a small feat by any imagination! Because Japan had very little natural resources, they had to trade for such resources in order to produce their industry and military capabilities. Foreign powers had control of Japan's resources, yet Japan was a puppet of no one and was quite capable of handling its own affairs without screwing things up royally.

Japan became so powerful so quickly that by the Sino-Japanese War of 1905, the Japanese were industrialized and militarized enough to go toe-to-toe with a major European power and outright humiliate them! Sure, the Tsarist Russians were in decline, but try telling that to their navy... well, until it was tore asunder by the Japanese navy.

Japan isn't the only country that has produced remarkable growth in Asia. Singapore used to be a small colony town barely worth mentioning on a map (despite the fact it was a intermediate trade hub between Asian and European powers). Within almost a century's time, Singapore has grown into a major metropolis and city-state.

Argentina used to be a colony of Spain, FFS. Argentina has grown to the point of being a power in its own right in South America, despite the fact the Spaniards raped that country like most of their other possessions. If being exploited is a precondition to failure, Argentina should be a complete hole right now, but its thriving. Brazil used to be a colony of Portugal and they have their own aircraft carrier, their own space program AND they are totally energy independent. The Portuguese also treated that nation like a piece of meat, YET IT THRIVES.

The difference between these countries and Africa is plain and simple: Leadership. Japan, Singapore, Argentina, Brazil, etc... They all had good leadership in place that tackled corruption and made sure that things got done in a manner that would allow those countries to grow. A majority of African nations lack the leadership necessary to turn their lemons into lemonade, and despite the assistance they get, they are still incapable of making that leap towards modern capabilities.


As for colonization making colonial Europe, thats a load of crap. Sure, some nations wouldn't have ballooned the way they did without colonization, but Europe is a smart place, they had things figured out well before they started colonizing the world.

Read up for why Norway and Iceland trounce people: Its the leadership angle. Norway and Iceland can manage their affairs just fine. Also, Germany and Japan were modern nations prior to getting the piss beat out of them... its not hard to assume that they're going to return to modern standards given enough time, aid or not.

By the way, its imperialist to keep holding the hands of nations that have declared independence, not tell them that its time to nest and manage their own affairs. Pakistan is a bad example, they're a rather successful nation (political instability or not), given their ability to transcend being taken advantage of by Britain when it was just another part of India.

You bring up a good point about Zimbabwe. They stopped taking aid and they're failing, therefore they must need aid to survive. No, Zimbabwe used to be the breadbasket of Africa. Incompetent and corrupt leadership have basically raped that country worse than the colonial powers ever could of.

BTW, the Soviet Union did fairly well on its way to becoming a superpower without investment from foreign nations. Sure, it had to endure sacrifices and the brutality of Uncle Joe, but it became a power greater than that of the entire world sans the United States by the time Joesph Stalin died. That speaks wonders for being able to do things internally with strong leadership.

By the way, the IMF is just another way for the countries at the top to interfere in the affairs of nations smaller than themselves (namely America interfering with those below). If you don't want to privatize, get your money elsewhere... calling another country with money to loan isn't that hard.

Ahh, good thing you mentioned foreign-supplied rebels. Hey, maybe if we more successful nations butted out of their business, those foreign-supplied rebels would have no foreign supplies. That is something you can wrap your head around, it is going to be a whopper. Also, illegal trade is going to happen. Best way to take hold of that illegal diamond trade is to crush it with armed force... oh wait, the diamond traders have better equipment? Guess who is going to win control of that country. Hell, if the illegal diamond traders are capable of overthrowing a country, maybe they'll have the mindset and smarts to actually run the country better than the guys who allowed such illegal activity to thrive in the first place.

Famine and drought is a harsh reality, but Sam Kinison said it best: Move to where the food is! It is not that hard to grab what you can and start walking to somewhere that actually has food. If you aren't willing to move or are unable, I guess natural selection is going to do its job then. Of course, if you want to help them out on your dollar, be my guest. I won't stop you, but I will object to my tax dollars going out to help people who aren't going to make the attempt to find sustainability.

Nigeria has oil... not as much as Saudi Arabia, but they have some. Too bad the money is squandered and pocketed rather than going towards building the country... its that effective leadership again...

By the way, the last two points peaked my attention. Coming from Flint, MI, I see a lot of people on welfare programs. I also see a lot of people discussing how to get as much money as they can from the welfare system... and not because their welfare isn't enough, its because they want more than what the system tells them they can have, but they don't want to put forth the same kind of thought and energy towards... I don't know, finding some other way of providing more support than just that needed to survive (like a job).

By the way, I'm currently juggling my finances to try and stay one step ahead of not having enough cash to drive home from university this semester, and my future is one filled with student loan debt. Life sucks and I'm going to have to make a living to repay that debt, but I'm not going to sit around on my ass and ask for the charity of others to pay my debt off for me... I have to work for my future, and I don't see why African nations should be exempt from the same.

People still believe that old myth?

That's all based on the fact that one time the oldest skeleton was found in Africa and people just assumed that meant that humanity began there. Not the case anymore, not that it disproves it either, but it doesn't matter regardless.

Sociologically speaking, what happened to Africa is inevitable when you take a multicultural continent, use oppressive colonialism to denude it of its sociopolitical capital, ingrain only the negative attributes of Western civilization, and use capitalism to undermine pre-existing economic systems. Oh, then you dump a bunch of guns there.

If you want a selfish reason for other countries to have an interest in Africa, remember that globalization means that Africa issues are ultimately world issues that affect everybody.

If you want an argument from responsibility, remember that when you purchase certain commodities (not just diamonds) and invest in certain retirement funds, you are (indirectly) paying people in Africa to chop of the arms of other people in Africa.

Of course, neither of these should be necessary for any non-sociopathic human being who does a google image search for something like "Congo".

Sociologically speaking, what happened to Africa is inevitable when you take a multicultural continent, use oppressive colonialism to denude it of its sociopolitical capital, ingrain only the negative attributes of Western civilization, and use capitalism to undermine pre-existing economic systems. Oh, then you dump a bunch of guns there.

If you want a selfish reason for other countries to have an interest in Africa, remember that globalization means that Africa issues are ultimately world issues that affect everybody.

If you want an argument from responsibility, remember that when you purchase certain commodities (not just diamonds) and invest in certain retirement funds, you are (indirectly) paying people in Africa to chop of the arms of other people in Africa.

Of course, neither of these should be necessary for any non-sociopathic human being who does a google image search for something like "Congo".

The best solution IMO is to isolate Africa, allow them to figure their problems out in the way of their choosing without outside interference, then re-establish contact when they have figured their affairs out.

The best solution IMO is to isolate Africa, allow them to figure their problems out in the way of their choosing without outside interference, then re-establish contact when they have figured their affairs out.
If you can figure out a way to stop guns and corporate interests from getting in, then you might just have a solution.

Man, I got these mad sick blood diamonds the other day...

oh.. Africa..

Pfft. What do I get out of that hellhole?

Man, I got these mad sick blood diamonds the other day...

oh.. Africa..

Pfft. What do I get out of that hellhole?

AIDS.

Protip: The slaves were slaves before they were sold to Europeans. If you didn't notice, the tribes were constantly at war and always took people home as war spoils. Slavery isn't a problem caused or continued by the Europeans. It's a problem caused and continued by the same Africans that can't take the initiative to run their own countries, practice birth control, or try farming something other than dirt.

Yes but as you know, African slavery was allot less barbaric than American slavery, it was more like serfdom and they'd be absorbed into the culture

Here is a video that talks about it http://youtube.com/watch?v=onlRjeKHsOo

Tell me, where exactly are all the desert nations getting their food? Don't try to pin it on imports either, since the Arabs and North African nations like Egypt and Carthage were quite able to prosper in classical times just fine

So did Civilizations in the Sudan, Ethiopia, west Africa ect.

I just think it's sad people are insulting an entire continent with such a rich heritage

alright I'm done

Nobody propped up Europe. The Africans need to do everything by themselves. Our constantly giving them money isn't solving anything. It's simply enabling them to do nothing.

The only way that Africa will become anything more than a shit infested cesspool is if we just pull out and isolate them completely. No money, no food, no nothing. The populations are overgrown and disease ridden, and only by allowing nature to take its course will the populations be in any shape to actually build nations. Sure, there will be blood baths and genocide, but the same thing happened during Europe's development.

Really, the only people responsible for Africa being a shit hole are the Africans and the whiny fucks that keep trying to play mommy to all the world's unfortunate.

My, you're a pleasant little git. Actually, Europe bears significant responsibility, through it's exploitative colonialism, for the problems existing in Africa now.

It is naive to think that, in a world made as small as this with modern transportation and communication, that anyone can keep any country isolated. It's been tried. It doesn't work. People will try to escape and many will succeed - they'll bring their problems with them. In order to prevent their problems from becoming our problems, we must help them to address them. I agree that mindlessly throwing money at them is not a solution, but we must still work with them not just for their benefit, but for the benefit of the world as a whole. This requires actual thought and planning, not rank emotionalism. And your are showing as much pointless, useless and destructive emotion as the "whiny fucks that keep trying to play mommy."

In a previous post on this thread, I explained my support of programs designed to help these people become self-sufficient - I believe that is the most logical way to proceed - not by throwing money at them and not by callously ignoring the problems.

Oh noes, colonialism! Colonialism ruined those parts of the world and Europe is entirely to blame! Good job there, sparky... I almost choked to death on a piece of gum reading that and laughing.

Lets say that Colonialism is the Midas Touch of Shit you claim it is and that every country that has ever been afflicted with it is now a dump. I guess that means that South America is a dump on the scale that Africa is, along with Latin America, Singapore, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong, Vietnam, the Philippines, India, Pakistan, etc.

South America has a lot of nations that are much better off than any hole you can think of in Africa. Brazil has its own space program, aircraft carrier and is energy independent. Argentina was considered enough of a world power for the British to slap down during the Falklands War. Chile, Peru, Ecuador, Paraguay, Bolivia, Venezuela, Guyana... those countries are doing fantastic compared to their southern hemisphere counterparts in Africa. Columbia is probably the closest in situation to African nations, but its because of ineffectual leadership that is too corrupt or unable to eliminate the drug cartels (paralleling the blood diamond trade).

Singapore, Indonesia, Malaysia, Hong Kong, etc. were highly underdeveloped in the early 20th century. However, either after their independence or after World War II, these areas became major powers in their own right. Hong Kong is considered one of the most successful economic centers in the world, Singapore is a successful city-state of sorts, Malaysia and Indonesia are becoming major economic centers in Southeast Asia, Vietnam fought well during the Vietnam War and continues to thrive, the Philippines are doing well, India is becoming a huge contributor in the global economy, and Pakistan has enough industrial capability and knowledge base to create nuclear weapons.

So I ask you, Anti-Social Darwinism: Is Colonialism that Midas Touch of Shit you flaunt so proudly?

By the way, it is one thing to give them a small amount of money and shove them out into the street to fend for themselves. It is another entirely to put them out on the street, but tell them that if they need it they can walk back to the door and get money whenever they ask.

In the first example, that person will feel inclined to try and make that money count. They might even be smart enough to use that money to facilitate getting more money (like buying a suit to get a job). The same premise can be applied economically to countries using aid money to build industry and derive capital from it by putting its human resources to work.

In the second example, the person doesn't need to worry about making money because money will flow in at the drop of a hat as long as they don't get anywhere. I would sit on my ass all day and watch TV rather than get a job if I got a check at the end of the week just the same.

Its political ineptitude and economic laziness that are killing Africa, not the fact that Europeans came in and ran the place for a while, then left when those countries decided it was time to stand on their own two feet. They are working with a net and it is high time that the net was taken away... provides incentive for them to actually work out of their problems rather than whine for more money because its too hard to work.

Its political ineptitude and economic laziness that are killing Africa, not the fact that Europeans came in and ran the place for a while, then left when those countries decided it was time to stand on their own two feet.

This is a spectacular take on history.

[QUOTE=So I ask you, Anti-Social Darwinism: Is Colonialism that Midas Touch of Shit you flaunt so proudly?[/QUOTE]

Well considering the European colonies in the US that helped make it what it is i'd say yes, consider US governemt foreign policy, it has attacked numerous nations through the past century, (of course so have many European countries as well), it tends to act like a parasite in some respects(of course so do most humans i am no exception), but engaging deals with African nations by offering them aid in exchange for the country to buy as much US things as possible, allows cheap African materials of diamond, crops, oil, clothes to be transported to the US and many other western countries. While the amount of money sent to developing nations in Africa aims to reach 0.7% of the GDI (gross domestic income), of the country while many nations fail to manage even this (perhaps too busy sending their money to swiss banks). For a number of reasons namely lack of political will.

Of course i'm not saying you should give all your money to charity, it would be very utilitarian of you but not realistic, but of a government that can make so much money per year just spare a thought as to how western countries became rich in the first place.

You could dismiss this argument as a begging argument and asking too much of you but is it really? In truth human beings tend not to help others until it's too late or very obvious that they do (with the exceptions of a few individuals), it wouldn't be morally wrong to give aid to Africa, it would help Africa and help other nations etc.
Also it would help reduce the US from being the most hated country in the world (possibly because in recent wars it moves in stomps all over the enemy country and walks off again, by this time the said country invaded say Vietnam are eating their own dead just to survive).

I know it's not fair blaming your governments political decisions on you the public who vote for it, you the public who can choose (i think liberty and freedom are rated highly in the US if i'm not mistaken) what your government should do, all nations are free to do as they wish, but they are also free to accept the consequences of their actions.
So that's it then is it? send lots of money and the problem ends, well we haven't tried that yet the governments concerned have sent collectively less than enough aid.
I blame the media for using horrific images to scare the public into giving aid, as the effectiveness of this technique is not awe inspiring and does little to tell us what clever people we really are given the chance we wouldn't condone poverty.
To reduce poverty in a country in generally helps if that country doesn't go to war with another(this applies to most Western countries).
merry new year, happy fake christmas

Europe bears significant responsibility, through it's exploitative colonialism, for the problems existing in Africa now.
Only because they left. Queen Victoria was the best leader Africa ever had.

And no, I don't care about Africa.

Africa was, on the whole, much better run when Europe had an actual vested interest in it. Yeah, fine, we were taking it for our own good. So what?

We built roads, towns and ran the place pretty competently. Now it's basically an AIDS-ridden clusterfuck, and anyone who tries to blame that on Europe which has had a minimal influence on it for the last 50-odd years is trying far too hard to be polite about how the Africans are running their own continent.

Trying to make the governments there become less corrupt is pissing into the wind, mostly because I don't think that most of the leaders there actually care about such things. See also trying to get rebel groups to disarm. Waste of time and money that we could use ourselves.

Fine, cancel our debts to them. The countries are still going to be a complete mess.

Yes. Let us give thanks for the noble, noble Europeans, who sacrificed and gave all to help the poor dumb, ignorant Africans. They slaved away, and conquered those heathen savages for their own good. Gave 'em work for the glory of the Empire, and look how they repay us! They demand that we leave them alone, and stop buying blood diamonds.

Well hogwash! If weren't for us stealing your land, raping your resources and enslaving your people, you'd have nothing. Nothing at all. All you'd have is this silling bullshit like "freedom" and "self-determination". Bah, hogwash. Those are for civilized peoples.

Yes. Let us give thanks for the noble, noble Europeans, who sacrificed and gave all to help the poor dumb, ignorant Africans. They slaved away, and conquered those heathen savages for their own good. Gave 'em work for the glory of the Empire, and look how they repay us! They demand that we leave them alone, and stop buying blood diamonds.

Well hogwash! If weren't for us stealing your land, raping your resources and enslaving your people, you'd have nothing. Nothing at all. All you'd have is this silling bullshit like "freedom" and "self-determination". Bah, hogwash. Those are for civilized peoples.

your argument has no evidence, only has your opinion to it, and effectively says we are better than Africans, this is a similar point of view Hitler held with Jews and the final solution, i wonder why so many people die in so many wars and we end up with people like you who are as ignorant as the day they were born, clearly we are not better than Africans and we aren't worse than them, therefore we are equal as we are both human.
Of course we aren't born equal and this theory falls down within a few seconds and strives for an ideal that will never happen as long as people like "trotskylavania" still live.

I'l remind you that the civilised people's you're speaking of who invaded Africa first invaded each other and only stopped when there was new land, basically there are no "civilised peoples", i am quite shocked that people of such backward racist mind still exist, i wonder if you believe in Karma.
Europeans back then were as noble as someone raping you, (that is not at all noble in fact mass murderers and very nasty) so bear that in mind before reminding me of why humanity should cease to exist when people hold such narrow sad views as yourself.
I imagine you belive in the end justifies the means right? well look were you'l end up like everyone else, dead, like me, like everyone, is it really worth it to attack other people for "the mighty and noble empire"? i doubt it. not that there is an empire you loonatic, try a few less of the drugs you're taking before commenting again, and keep your fascist views to yourself please.
have a nice life

-snip-

Read up on sarcasm.

At least I thought it was sarcasm...

your argument has no evidence, only has your opinion to it, and effectively says we are better than Africans, this is a similar point of view Hitler held with Jews and the final solution, i wonder why so many people die in so many wars and we end up with people like you who are as ignorant as the day they were born, clearly we are not better than Africans and we aren't worse than them, therefore we are equal as we are both human.
Of course we aren't born equal and this theory falls down within a few seconds and strives for an ideal that will never happen as long as people like "trotskylavania" still live.

I'l remind you that the civilised people's you're speaking of who invaded Africa first invaded each other and only stopped when there was new land, basically there are no "civilised peoples", i am quite shocked that people of such backward racist mind still exist, i wonder if you believe in Karma.
Europeans back then were as noble as someone raping you, (that is not at all noble in fact mass murderers and very nasty) so bear that in mind before reminding me of why humanity should cease to exist when people hold such narrow sad views as yourself.
I imagine you belive in the end justifies the means right? well look were you'l end up like everyone else, dead, like me, like everyone, is it really worth it to attack other people for "the mighty and noble empire"? i doubt it. not that there is an empire you loonatic, try a few less of the drugs you're taking before commenting again, and keep your fascist views to yourself please.
have a nice life

Its called SARCASM you leftist tit....look it up in a dictionary.

And I only care about the European South Africans being harassed, murdered, and raped by the black majority in their nation.

Such a beautiful continent going to waste upsets me, yes. Do I think that my tax money should go to helping Africans? No. I DISAGREE HOW IS THE WORLD GOING TO FUNCTION IF EVERY NATION IS HEARTLESS AND WON'T HELP OUT THOSE LESS FOURNATE THEN OTHERS??????? THE WORLD WILL END A DARK COLD PLACE :( BECAUSE NO 1 CARES FOR ANYONE ELSE AND ITS REALLY TRULY SAD

I DISAGREE HOW IS THE WORLD GOING TO FUNCTION IF EVERY NATION IS HEARTLESS AND WON'T HELP OUT THOSE LESS FOURNATE THEN OTHERS??????? THE WORLD WILL END A DARK COLD PLACE :( BECAUSE NO 1 CARES FOR ANYONE ELSE AND ITS REALLY TRULY SAD
There are better causes in the world than helping out Sub-Saharan Africa.

I DISAGREE HOW IS THE WORLD GOING TO FUNCTION IF EVERY NATION IS HEARTLESS AND WON'T HELP OUT THOSE LESS FOURNATE THEN OTHERS??????? THE WORLD WILL END A DARK COLD PLACE :( BECAUSE NO 1 CARES FOR ANYONE ELSE AND ITS REALLY TRULY SAD

CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL1111

Also I would like the world to end in a dark cold place rather than a really bright hot one. I don't really like warm weather that much.

Its called SARCASM you leftist tit....look it up in a dictionary.

And I only care about the European South Africans being harassed, murdered, and raped by the black majority in their nation.

Probably didn't care about the "European" minority opressing the majority though did you?

After setting up this thread and poll and reading the responses I'm just going to throw in my 2cents if you like. 1st, I'm surprised that so many openly admit to not caring. I find it hard to understand how we as a society can largely just ignore such cries of human suffering. Things can be done. If enough people spoke up and told their elected officials they wanted something done, it would. Such willful apathy is costing human lives daily, and that must be on conscience of all who ignore.

As to what can be done; its foolish to bicker about the past and role of colonialism. As it is foolish to throw money and food aide into a place that requires so much more. Its like putting a bandage on problem that requires open heart surgery.
Governments around the world must condemn the corruption and the failed governments across Africa. The people must be enpowered take control of their resources and embrace innovation and free markets. If they can do that, with the help of the west, Africa would thrive.

your argument has no evidence, only has your opinion to it, and effectively says we are better than Africans, this is a similar point of view Hitler held with Jews and the final solution, i wonder why so many people die in so many wars and we end up with people like you who are as ignorant as the day they were born, clearly we are not better than Africans and we aren't worse than them, therefore we are equal as we are both human.
Of course we aren't born equal and this theory falls down within a few seconds and strives for an ideal that will never happen as long as people like "trotskylavania" still live.

I'l remind you that the civilised people's you're speaking of who invaded Africa first invaded each other and only stopped when there was new land, basically there are no "civilised peoples", i am quite shocked that people of such backward racist mind still exist, i wonder if you believe in Karma.
Europeans back then were as noble as someone raping you, (that is not at all noble in fact mass murderers and very nasty) so bear that in mind before reminding me of why humanity should cease to exist when people hold such narrow sad views as yourself.
I imagine you belive in the end justifies the means right? well look were you'l end up like everyone else, dead, like me, like everyone, is it really worth it to attack other people for "the mighty and noble empire"? i doubt it. not that there is an empire you loonatic, try a few less of the drugs you're taking before commenting again, and keep your fascist views to yourself please.
have a nice life

I thought that the whole part about "stealing their land and raping their resources for their own good" would give you a clue to it being sarcasm.

Sadly I was mistaken.

Its called SARCASM you leftist tit....look it up in a dictionary.

And I only care about the European South Africans being harassed, murdered, and raped by the black majority in their nation.

I also happen to be a "leftist tit". An extremely leftist tit, as a matter of fact.

I hope you're not being serious about only caring about European South Africans...

Well considering the European colonies in the US that helped make it what it is i'd say yes, consider US governemt foreign policy, it has attacked numerous nations through the past century, (of course so have many European countries as well), it tends to act like a parasite in some respects(of course so do most humans i am no exception), but engaging deals with African nations by offering them aid in exchange for the country to buy as much US things as possible, allows cheap African materials of diamond, crops, oil, clothes to be transported to the US and many other western countries.

Wait... I wasn't gonna jump into this one but this post gave me pause: Since when are diamonds cheap?

Crops??? We export food. The only foods the US imports are luxury type items like bananas.... and those come from Central and South America.

Oil??? I wish it were cheap. Even so, Africa is hardly a major supplier of crude. We get ours from the Middle East, South America and domestically.


While the amount of money sent to developing nations in Africa aims to reach 0.7% of the GDI (gross domestic income), of the country while many nations fail to manage even this (perhaps too busy sending their money to swiss banks). For a number of reasons namely lack of political will.


Africa has the resources for self-sufficiency. There's no reason to rely on anybody else.


Of course i'm not saying you should give all your money to charity, it would be very utilitarian of you but not realistic, but of a government that can make so much money per year just spare a thought as to how western countries became rich in the first place.


Are you implying that wealth all came as a result of exploiting Africa?


You could dismiss this argument as a begging argument and asking too much of you but is it really? In truth human beings tend not to help others until it's too late or very obvious that they do (with the exceptions of a few individuals), it wouldn't be morally wrong to give aid to Africa, it would help Africa and help other nations etc.

*ahem* The reason Africans are starving isn't because of insufficient aid. It's because local warlords are more interested in grabbing power than providing for the people they mean to rule. Constant warfare and unrest prevent the construction of infrastructure and national production industry, and what aid is sent is taken and hoarded by said warlords.


Also it would help reduce the US from being the most hated country in the world (possibly because in recent wars it moves in stomps all over the enemy country and walks off again, by this time the said country invaded say Vietnam are eating their own dead just to survive).


It wouldn't help the American image in the slightest if we sent more money to Africa. Nobody gives a damn about Africa. Genocide in Eurpoe? U.N. is all over it like a bad rash. War in the Middle East? Peacekeepers arrive faster than even the press. Human Rights trouble in Asia? We hear all about it. Meanwhile people are being killed by the tens of thousands in Africa in civil wars and religious clashes and for the most part, you hear nothing about it except the occasional blurb if it's a slow news day.

When things got hot in the Balkans, we sent in more troops. When they got hot in Somalia, we split.


I know it's not fair blaming your governments political decisions on you the public who vote for it, you the public who can choose (i think liberty and freedom are rated highly in the US if i'm not mistaken) what your government should do, all nations are free to do as they wish, but they are also free to accept the consequences of their actions.


Name one wrong committed by the US against Africa. (And don't say slavery. Slaves taken to the U.S. were sold to Eurpoean slave traders by African tribal warlords.


So that's it then is it? send lots of money and the problem ends, well we haven't tried that yet the governments concerned have sent collectively less than enough aid.


How much more can be sent? To what purpose? To make the warlords fatter? What needs to happen is military intervention, not more money.


I blame the media for using horrific images to scare the public into giving aid, as the effectiveness of this technique is not awe inspiring and does little to tell us what clever people we really are given the chance we wouldn't condone poverty.
To reduce poverty in a country in generally helps if that country doesn't go to war with another(this applies to most Western countries).
merry new year, happy fake christmas

buh?

As to what can be done; its foolish to bicker about the past and role of colonialism. As it is foolish to throw money and food aide into a place that requires so much more. Its like putting a bandage on problem that requires open heart surgery.
Governments around the world must condemn the corruption and the failed governments across Africa. The people must be enpowered take control of their resources and embrace innovation and free markets. If they can do that, with the help of the west, Africa would thrive.

QFT

I thought that the whole part about "stealing their land and raping their resources for their own good" would give you a clue to it being sarcasm.

Sadly I was mistaken.

Well yes it did but you didn't exactly say you were being sarcastic, even joking about things online can be easily viewed as something it's not, i was a bit confused considering you're trotsky.
even then your comment wasn't very well thought out.(hence me going on some kind of rant)

Wait... I wasn't gonna jump into this one but this post gave me pause:
Are you implying that wealth all came as a result of exploiting Africa?
*ahem* The reason Africans are starving isn't because of insufficient aid. It's because local warlords are more interested in grabbing power than providing for the people they mean to rule. Constant warfare and unrest prevent the construction of infrastructure and national production industry, and what aid is sent is taken and hoarded by said warlords.

Name one wrong committed by the US against Africa. (And don't say slavery. Slaves taken to the U.S. were sold to Eurpoean slave traders by African tribal warlords.

How much more can be sent? To what purpose? To make the warlords fatter? What needs to happen is military intervention, not more money.

buh?

A condisiderable amount of wealth of the west came from other nations, many of which are now third world.
The old British empire is a good example of this, see Boer war, Britain had vast areas of colonies all over the globe, then it lost it's territories, but keeping most of the wealth.

Well one wrong committed by the US could be selling weapons to the East and Africa for profit, thus arming warlords in africa. It's true that alot of aid sent is horded by warlords or autocratic rulers, but that doesn't mean western countries can just sit back, there are other ways of sending aid, not just money either.
Also any global warming that does occur will affect Africa more than most other nations, as the desert in the North destroys farmland, i'm not saying the US use up too much oil, it's Saudi arabia that's guilty of that.

Military intervention? what just re-invade Africa? that would be a bit expensive, i suppose, what would help is if the African nations used the wealth given to them properly, so they'd require more democratic governments, this war on terror isn't helping either as it serves to drive a divide between Muslims and Christians.

It's true many European slave traders did take many African slaves, but many stayed in the US, thus creating social divisions in the country which can be seen today, even the pointless gun-laws in some of the southern states are a testement to this.
The problem with Africa is that the only way it can be mended is to have the correct sort of aid sent, and reduce chances of military weapons being sold to African nations.
Trouble with starting wars is if you invade you don't have to sort out the mess made later. unless you count Iraq(urg i don't want to start on that today).
Merry Hannukah

Being an African myself... what the hell do you think?

YES.
I dunt however believe in foreign aid in terms of "lets throw money at them and pretend they don't really exist"
I dunt want your money. I dunt want more influence from western cultures.
I want to see us as individuals in Africa each take responsibility for what we can and start simply on building our own reality, making things work according to our ways, culture and needs. I want an Africa that doesn't need the Western world, but stands beside them as equals (and maybe even one day betters... I can dream can't I?), an Africa that is self-sufficient, self-driven, and self-made.
For Africans.

I'm a caring person who loves to help everyone no matter the cost to myself. So yeah of ocurse I care for them.

A condisiderable amount of wealth of the west came from other nations, many of which are now third world.
The old British empire is a good example of this, see Boer war, Britain had vast areas of colonies all over the globe, then it lost it's territories, but keeping most of the wealth.
... We kept SA after the Boer wars...
What would help is if the African nations used the wealth given to them properly, so they'd require more democratic governments.
Erm, no. Democracy doesn't mean that the people at the top are better at using money, it means that they're more charismatic and cutthroat, or they wouldn't have risen to the top...

I DISAGREE HOW IS THE WORLD GOING TO FUNCTION IF EVERY NATION IS HEARTLESS AND WON'T HELP OUT THOSE LESS FOURNATE THEN OTHERS??????? THE WORLD WILL END A DARK COLD PLACE :( BECAUSE NO 1 CARES FOR ANYONE ELSE AND ITS REALLY TRULY SAD
HammerTime :D
http://www.famine-online.co.uk/capslock.jpg

and
Merry*• ´¨¨)) -:¦:- ((
¸.•´ .•´¨¨))
((¸¸.•´ .•´ -:¦:-
-:¦:-•´¨¨))
((¸¸.•´*Christmas

There are better causes in the world than helping out Sub-Saharan Africa.like what?

the "amount" of money "poured" into Africa is irrelevant. You could throw millions of dollars at a kid, but if you don't teach them how to wisely invest/spend that money, they're going to blow it on nothing.

what we need to do is set up NGO's or even government services to properly channel the money to where it needs to go, and teach the African governments how to utilize those funds in order to obtain their full benefit.

The problem isn't just how the money is spent by the African nations or individuals within it.

Frankly, we've created a welfare state out of the needy in Africa. In essence, western civilization has engendered the massive poverty in Africa through its actions.

Does that mean we should continue supporting the African nations? Nope. Perpetuating the situation won't solve it, it will just make it worse. Time to teach them to stand on their own.

And finally, charities for Africa have become a huge business in and of themselves. If you donate money to any of the large "charities", I guarantee you most of that money isn't being spent on the needy over there, it's going into the pockets of the organizations which are built around these charities.

In short, I regard the African problem in the same way I regard the people on the street corners with big signs saying "Vietnam Vet, please give me money".

Actually the 'bad leadership' and the terrible state the newly-formed African republics after independence was a direct result of colonialism and neocolonialism. Exploitation does not make a country better, it provides only the rudimentary infrastructure and other necessities which are needed to take the resources back to the patent country. It's like an investment the colonizer puts in to get much more back because slavery and direct exploitation means costs are much much lower than elsewhere, colonialism is capitalism at it's most direct level, for every 10$ they put in they get 100$ back. It's in the interests of the colonizer to keep the populace ignorant and uneducated, and largely divided along the old tribal system which is kept running to keep the people divided against each other instead of their common oppressor, the result of such tribalism clearly felt in Rwanda and the Sudan.

For example when Belgium gave independence to the Conga, their were only 30 university graduates in the entire country of 55 million or so, if colonialism was so beneficial then why was this the case? Of course the result was that the country couldn't govern itself in the modern style without Belgium assistance, which in reality meant a return to colonialism in all but name. Colonialism gives nothing to a country, it rapes every resource it has, keeps the people poor, ignorant, uneducated and tribal, and uses them as cheap or slave labor to send the money back to the patent country, it's the very embodiment of lootocracy. I am quite ashamed that some reactionaries and racists are defending it on this thread, without the great revolutionary leaders like Castro, Mandela Africa would still be far behind, this is of course not to say that the work is finished, the next obstacle to African independence is neoliberal capitalism, which must be crushed also.

The Africans need to do everything by themselves. Our constantly giving them money isn't solving anything. It's simply enabling them to do nothing.

The only way that Africa will become anything more than a shit infested cesspool is if we just pull out and isolate them completely. No money, no food, no nothing. The populations are overgrown and disease ridden, and only by allowing nature to take its course will the populations be in any shape to actually build nations. Sure, there will be blood baths and genocide, but the same thing happened during Europe's development.

Really, the only people responsible for Africa being a shit hole are the Africans and the whiny fucks that keep trying to play mommy to all the world's unfortunate.

seconded

well, most of it.

Africa will remain in poverty indefinitely until they overthrow capitalism.

Africa will remain in poverty indefinitely until they overthrow capitalism.

Maybe if they actually had capitalism, you might have an argument. But as it stands...you don't.

For example when Belgium gave independence to the Conga, their were only 30 university graduates in the entire country of 55 million or so

16 graduates.

And the population was only about 10 million at the time.

I DISAGREE HOW IS THE WORLD GOING TO FUNCTION IF EVERY NATION IS HEARTLESS AND WON'T HELP OUT THOSE LESS FOURNATE THEN OTHERS??????? THE WORLD WILL END A DARK COLD PLACE :( BECAUSE NO 1 CARES FOR ANYONE ELSE AND ITS REALLY TRULY SAD

This years "fuckwit" award has a winner. I'll send you a TG in the next few days to arrange the details for the trophy ceremony and the like, and can I just commend you again for posting something not only abominably written and typed, but also supremely risible. Quite an effort there I feel.

16 graduates.

And the population was only about 10 million at the time.

That's still hardly staggering is it?

That's still hardly staggering is it?

Not really, no.

Not really, no.

How surprising.

Nope, fuck 'em.

But I support giving them money...it helps our economy too after all.

I have to say that I don't really care about most of the world, Africa included.

Africa will remain in poverty indefinitely until they overthrow capitalism.
Maybe if they actually had capitalism, you might have an argument. But as it stands...you don't.

Actually, I have to inform you that we do.
Even in places that aren't capitalist there is a leaning towards the "western ways". As it is we may not have it to the same degree as the States - I'd consider that a good thing personally - and I hope we never do.

I have to say that I don't really care about most of the world, Africa included.

That is an opinion I can both understand and accept.