NationStates Jolt Archive

Hasnt it seem that Christmas is losing all religious ties. It is ever rarely mentioned that it is celebrated for the birth of Christmas. Now it is getting so bad to the point that Christmas trees are being called holiday trees. I feel that this is a discrimination against Christians. No one sees Ramadam or Hannkuka(forgive me if it is misspelled) losing religious value like Christmas. I'm not saying that non Christians cant celebrate the holiday, I am saying that it shouldnt lose the basis on which it is founded on.

Hasnt it seem that Christmas is losing all religious ties. It is ever rarely mentioned that it is celebrated for the birth of Christmas.

For the lolz.

The rest of your thread is less "funny haha" as it is "funny sad"

No shit. Every tie I have ever got as a Christmas gift has been one of those horrible secular ties with paisley patterns and such. I don't think I've ever once received a "jesus died for your sins" tie come to think of it.

Christmas is both a secular holiday and a religious one. Much like Easter. I don't think my family has attached religious significance to either of these for at 50 years.

Also, Ramadan and Hanukkah aren't secular holidays. And even if they were, celebrating them without religious reasons wouldn't amount to "discrimination" against the practitioners of those religions. What would amount to discrimination would be preventing said practitioners from doing so, which clearly isn't the case.

Hasnt it seem that Christmas is losing all religious ties. It is ever rarely mentioned that it is celebrated for the birth of Christmas. Now it is getting so bad to the point that Christmas trees are being called holiday trees. I feel that this is a discrimination against Christians. No one sees Ramadam or Hannkuka(forgive me if it is misspelled) losing religious value like Christmas. I'm not saying that non Christians cant celebrate the holiday, I am saying that it shouldnt lose the basis on which it is founded on.

I think politcal correctness to please non-Christians is stupid but (sorry if I'm a bit blunt) don't you know anything?

It's rarely mentioned that Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christmas? :confused:

Anyway, I know a few Jewish people. They say that Hannukah is also losing its religious value because it's now all about going through the motions and buying presents, like Christmas has become. Not knowing any Muslims, Icannot say the same about Ramadan.

And why can't I celebrate the holiday? I look at it as a family holiday, even if the rest of my family sees it as a mixture of that and a religious holiday.

Hasnt it seem that Christmas is losing all religious ties. It is ever rarely mentioned that it is celebrated for the birth of Christmas. Now it is getting so bad to the point that Christmas trees are being called holiday trees. I feel that this is a discrimination against Christians. No one sees Ramadam or Hannkuka(forgive me if it is misspelled) losing religious value like Christmas. I'm not saying that non Christians cant celebrate the holiday, I am saying that it shouldnt lose the basis on which it is founded on.

consider dicken's "a christmas carol" written 160+ years ago.

how religious was that?

I'd say American consumerism is a bigger threat to the religious part of Christmas rather than too much political correctness...

What would Jesus buy? (http://youtube.com/watch?v=sGi21YQFjMM)

Gotta have the Christmas spirit...with some brand new rims :p

No shit. Every tie I have ever got as a Christmas gift has been one of those horrible secular ties with paisley patterns and such. I don't think I've ever once received a "jesus died for your sins" tie come to think of it.

Best gift tag ever.
It would have to be written cheerful gothic script, of course.

Hasnt it seem that Christmas is losing all religious ties. It is ever rarely mentioned that it is celebrated for the birth of Christmas. Now it is getting so bad to the point that Christmas trees are being called holiday trees. I feel that this is a discrimination against Christians. No one sees Ramadam or Hannkuka(forgive me if it is misspelled) losing religious value like Christmas. I'm not saying that non Christians cant celebrate the holiday, I am saying that it shouldnt lose the basis on which it is founded on.

It's the same with funerals. People are increasingly using those as one more excuse to Party, rather than use the occasion to catch up with the family.

You're definitly right. Christmas is losing all of it's original religious ties. As such, we shood bring back those religious ties by celebrating Christmas for it's original purpose: A pagan holiday celebrating the Winter Solstice.

I feel that this is a discrimination against Christians. No one sees Ramadam or Hannkuka(forgive me if it is misspelled) losing religious value like Christmas.

Ramadan and Hanukkah are both pretty secularized. Ramadan is basically "let's wait 'til sundown, then stuff our faces with treats," unless you come from a traditionalist family. Same goes for Hanukkah: big dinner of brisket or something, then presents, eight times.

Hasnt it seem that Christmas is losing all religious ties.
Losing? I'd say it's already pretty fair gone.

I'll come clean: I am partly to blame for the secularization of Christmas. Maybe my confession will lower my sentence, when I and the rest are finally prosecuted. "The rest," you say? "Who are 'the rest,'" you may be thinking. Well, I, and 72 million other registered members of the Democratic Party are all together in:
THE WAR ON CHRISTMAS
I now regret my actions, but it is too late. Events have already been set in motion that will insure by 2015, at the latest, Christmas as we know it will cease to exist. December 25 will be replaced by a day of giving money to Wal-Mart, much like April 16.

So, have "a very merry Christmas." It may just be your last.

You're definitly right. Christmas is losing all of it's original religious ties. As such, we shood bring back those religious ties by celebrating Christmas for it's original purpose: A pagan holiday celebrating the Winter Solstice.

Praise Odin Allfather! The followers of this Christ-God are waging a war on the Winter Solstice!



You know, the freethinker group I'm a member of was thinking of doing a public "War on Christmas" just to make fun of the Christian Right, but then we realized that we all have final exams/papers to worry about.

Also, 1,000 posts. :)

Nobody knows when his birthday was and back in the day when the church was forming (I believe that would be Roman Catholic) they decided to overlay the pagan winter solstice revelries with a Christian holiday. The Yule log comes from the pagans. The eat, drink and be merry part comes from the pagans too.

As for 'War on Christmas' there really was a war on Christmas once. Back during the Protestant Reformation, the Puritans were not happy about all the feasting and merriment. They felt Christians should be pious and pray so they issued a proclamation that no Christian was to celebrate Christmas or any holiday of a similar nature.

Do you expect presents on Christmas? If you do, then you're responsible for it becoming a consumerist holiday. Add to that the fact that you live in a consumerist country, pair that with questions and its no surprise that the once religous festival became a consumer's orgy.

You can personally stop that by refusing to give or receive presents, or put someone's name on a prayer list (we do this at temple, I'm Jewish, and I'm not sure if you people do this)for a present. This would be a good, wholesome step towards your own crusade to same Christmas, and your similarly fundamentalist friends may even follow suit.

However, allow me to be perfectly blunt, "WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?" We have a war in the shitter, a national debt that looks like my telephone number (with long distance codes), the government crawling around in our phones and you're worried about CHRISTMAS? My Friend, you don't have values, you have issues.

You can cut yourself and all your beneficiaries off of presents, or you can shut the hell up. Be a consumer or a crusader, just put a tournequitte on your damn bleeding heart and spare us all!

Do you expect presents on Christmas?




I don't, I request 2-3 charities and my parents/grandparents/relatives/friends donate to them. :) I actually spefically request not to recieve presents.

Then again I'm not Christian and I absolutly loath Christmas.

Hasnt it seem that Christmas is losing all religious ties. It is ever rarely mentioned that it is celebrated for the birth of Christmas. Now it is getting so bad to the point that Christmas trees are being called holiday trees. I feel that this is a discrimination against Christians. No one sees Ramadam or Hannkuka(forgive me if it is misspelled) losing religious value like Christmas. I'm not saying that non Christians cant celebrate the holiday, I am saying that it shouldnt lose the basis on which it is founded on.

Sorry. That's the Devil's bargain your faith has made. Christmas sold it's spiritual soul for the sake of market share.

Ask any TV writer. However good your stuff is when you write it, once the execs put it in front of a focus group it's going to be shit.

That's what happened when Christmas started incorporating gift-giving from the Roman Saturnalia, decorated pine trees from Germany, and Yule logs from Scandinavia.

You want Christmas to be about Christ? Don't go shopping, don't hang up colorful decorations, don't get a tree, and take a long walk in the cold to get to church, listen to a boring speech about how you're not as good as some guy who got nailed to a couple of planks of wood two thousand years ago, and then go home, have dinner, feel bad about yourself and go to bed. If you really want to live it up, go to bed in a stable.

The lunatic who stands in the middle of Dudley Street at lunchtimes screaming at the top of his lungs about letting baby Jesus into our lives is religious enough for all of us, I think. You know, you really should reign in people like that, 'cause they don't do much for the image of Christians in general.

Anyway, Christmas as we know it was founded by corporations anyway. Do you think Jesus sat up every birthday underneath a pine tree, unwrapping his £400 32" HD-ready plasma TV that Joseph and Mary were shamed into buying for him?

Do you think Jesus sat up every birthday underneath a pine tree, unwrapping his £400 32" HD-ready plasma TV that Joseph and Mary were shamed into buying for him?

Absolutly.

Absolutly.

Well he's a lucky so-and-so then. All my parents used to get me was a few bars of chocolate and a cheap VHS!

Well he's a lucky so-and-so then. All my parents used to get me was a few bars of chocolate and a cheap VHS!

Chocolate is far superior to any TV. In fact, if Chritianity was based around chocolate this wouldn't be an issue, it's the religion's own fault, really.

Well he's a lucky so-and-so then. All my parents used to get me was a few bars of chocolate and a cheap VHS!

Depending on the VHS, that's not so bad a deal.

Chocolate is far superior to any TV. In fact, if Chritianity was based around chocolate this wouldn't be an issue, it's the religion's own fault, really.

Well, you keep telling yourself that when your TV shows you nothing but static, and the only thing you have to entertain yourself during the cold, lonely winter nights is a single bar of Dairy Milk!

It's the same with funerals. People are increasingly using those as one more excuse to Party, rather than use the occasion to catch up with the family.

My father passed away this spring, and in January, we are going on a cruise because he wanted us to do that instead of a funeral. As a matter of fact, when he was in the hospital, he called each of us and made us promise to do so.

You want Christmas to be about Christ? Don't go shopping, don't hang up colorful decorations, don't get a tree, and take a long walk in the cold to get to church, listen to a boring speech about how you're not as good as some guy who got nailed to a couple of planks of wood two thousand years ago, and then go home, have dinner, feel bad about yourself and go to bed. If you really want to live it up, go to bed in a stable.

That's the smartest thing I've heard all day, mind if I use it in my debate team?

Hasnt it seem that Christmas is losing all religious ties. It is ever rarely mentioned that it is celebrated for the birth of Christmas. Now it is getting so bad to the point that Christmas trees are being called holiday trees. I feel that this is a discrimination against Christians. No one sees Ramadam or Hannkuka(forgive me if it is misspelled) losing religious value like Christmas. I'm not saying that non Christians cant celebrate the holiday, I am saying that it shouldnt lose the basis on which it is founded on.

You do realize that most of Christmas celebration and decoration is based off of the Yule Holiday Celebration done by those who follows the Norse Religion (today known as Asatru), right? Actually, the Vatican ripped off the whole Yule celebration, the Norse people should sue for copyright infringement.

My father passed away this spring, and in January, we are going on a cruise because he wanted us to do that instead of a funeral. As a matter of fact, when he was in the hospital, he called each of us and made us promise to do so.

Condolences. Have you also contributed in some material way to the severance of religious ties with christmas?

As an atheist, I am thankful to have Christmas as an opportunity to exploit the generosity and consumerism of my friends and relatives to undermine their religion, and enrich my material wealth in the process.

mmMWAHAHAHAHA!!!!111

You're definitly right. Christmas is losing all of it's original religious ties. As such, we shood bring back those religious ties by celebrating Christmas for it's original purpose: A pagan holiday celebrating the Winter Solstice.

I like you. :)

I like you. :)

Join the fan club.

No shit. Every tie I have ever got as a Christmas gift has been one of those horrible secular ties with paisley patterns and such. I don't think I've ever once received a "jesus died for your sins" tie come to think of it.

I can hook you up!
Well, i can, at least, hook you up with some jesus-related sexual appendages.
<.<
>.>

Hasnt it seem that Christmas is losing all religious ties. It is ever rarely mentioned that it is celebrated for the birth of Christmas. Now it is getting so bad to the point that Christmas trees are being called holiday trees. I feel that this is a discrimination against Christians. No one sees Ramadam or Hannkuka(forgive me if it is misspelled) losing religious value like Christmas. I'm not saying that non Christians cant celebrate the holiday, I am saying that it shouldnt lose the basis on which it is founded on.

Like when Nicholaus of Myra absconded with Mithras' birthday?

Hasnt it seem that Christmas is losing all religious ties. It is ever rarely mentioned that it is celebrated for the birth of Christmas. Now it is getting so bad to the point that Christmas trees are being called holiday trees. I feel that this is a discrimination against Christians. No one sees Ramadam or Hannkuka(forgive me if it is misspelled) losing religious value like Christmas. I'm not saying that non Christians cant celebrate the holiday, I am saying that it shouldnt lose the basis on which it is founded on.

Most of the fun traditions of Christmas were pulled from various Pagan solstice celebrations anyway, including the date.

Join the fan club.

Mr. Grocer: [Marty and Grocer are shooting eachother] Comrade! Comrade!
Marty: What?
Mr. Grocer: Why don't you just join the fan club, we'll go upstairs together and cap daddy!
Marty: This fan club, there's gonna be meetings?
Mr. Grocer: Of course!
Marty: No meetings.
:)

Like when Nicholaus of Myra absconded with Mithras' birthday?

:fluffle:

Hasnt it seem that Christmas is losing all religious ties.

'Christmas' lost all religious ties when they stopped calling it Saturnalia.

:)

Dude. +1 Cool Points for GPB quotes.

You're definitly right. Christmas is losing all of it's original religious ties. As such, we shood bring back those religious ties by celebrating Christmas for it's original purpose: A pagan holiday celebrating the Winter Solstice.

Indeed

Dude. +1 Cool Points for GPB quotes.

*bows* :)
I'm working on the brain floss. Too much salt water in there, and 'sides, i started watching the new Die Hard flick (currently) after watching the new Futurama movie ... it's an uncomfortable transition.

Hasnt it seem that Christmas is losing all religious ties. It is ever rarely mentioned that it is celebrated for the birth of Christmas. Now it is getting so bad to the point that Christmas trees are being called holiday trees. I feel that this is a discrimination against Christians. No one sees Ramadam or Hannkuka(forgive me if it is misspelled) losing religious value like Christmas. I'm not saying that non Christians cant celebrate the holiday, I am saying that it shouldnt lose the basis on which it is founded on.

I'm glad Christmas is losing it's religious ties. CHristmas is a hybrid holiday that should be ceebrated by everyone as a day we honor generosity of spirit and peace between eachother. The fact that Christians celebrate Christ's birth on that day reinforces the purpose of CHristmas, not vice-versa.

I'm glad Christmas is losing it's religious ties. CHristmas is a hybrid holiday that should be ceebrated by everyone as a day we honor generosity of spirit and peace between eachother. The fact that Christians celebrate Christ's birth on that day reinforces the purpose of CHristmas, not vice-versa.

I figured, on my read through your post, that you first emphasis of the CH in Christmas was a mistake. But seeing a second CHristmas at the end of your post forces me to ask: Is there something you're driving at by adding emphasis there? I'm genuinely curious.

I figured, on my read through your post, that you first emphasis of the CH in Christmas was a mistake. But seeing a second CHristmas at the end of your post forces me to ask: Is there something you're driving at by adding emphasis there? I'm genuinely curious.

No, I use a wireless keyboard, and sometimes my shift button lags a bit. If you were to look at a bunch of my posts from the past, you'd probably notice. In fact, I'm surprised nobody has commented on them before now.

No, I use a wireless keyboard, and sometimes my shift button lags a bit. If you were to look at a bunch of my posts from the past, you'd probably notice. In fact, I'm nobody has commented on them before now.

You're LG. I imagine most of us just take that in stride.

Like when Nicholaus of Myra absconded with Mithras' birthday?What does Nicholaus of Myra (whose holiday is 6th of december) have to do with Mithra's birthday (25th of december) ?

You're LG. I imagine most of us just take that in stride.

It's far from my oddest feature. ;)

But as for Christ or Christmas, I'm not trying to emphasize the fact that Christ dominates the word Christmas any more than it already does. SOmetimes I wish it didn't, but it does. I see no reason to change it's name just to satisfy some angry non-christians that are under the false belief that it's a religious holiday even if it does have the perk of annoying angry fundamentalist christians who try to hold onto something that was never theirs to begin with.

Fuck em. :)

... I am saying that it shouldnt lose the basis on which it is founded on.Idolatry??

Hasnt it seem that Christmas is losing all religious ties. It is ever rarely mentioned that it is celebrated for the birth of Christmas. Now it is getting so bad to the point that Christmas trees are being called holiday trees. I feel that this is a discrimination against Christians. No one sees Ramadam or Hannkuka(forgive me if it is misspelled) losing religious value like Christmas. I'm not saying that non Christians cant celebrate the holiday, I am saying that it shouldnt lose the basis on which it is founded on.

Sometimes when you read stupid things that look like they were written by a thirteen year old you think "my god, this poster is a damned idiot!"

But then, on second thought, you remember that much of what ordinary adult people take for granted has to be learned at some point, and remember that every thirteen year old forum spammer has to learn and be shocked by everything at some point, before he can see how tired and obvious it is.

Christmas is losing religious ties? What religious ties?
You seriously think that a holiday revolving around a decorated tree and an old man who, despite the laws of physics, is on a mission to give presents to every single child in the world by means of magic reindeer has something to do with Jesus?

Christmas is losing religious ties? What religious ties?
You seriously think that a holiday revolving around a decorated tree and an old man who, despite the laws of physics, is on a mission to give presents to every single child in the world by means of magic reindeer has something to do with Jesus?

It made converting nonChristians to Christianity easier. Today's missionaries suck. They try to force people to join. You don't force them. You make them want to. Amateurs.

Christmas is losing religious ties? What religious ties?
You seriously think that a holiday revolving around a decorated tree and an old man who, despite the laws of physics, is on a mission to give presents to every single child in the world by means of magic reindeer has something to do with Jesus?well, the old-man thing is not a part of Christmas outside the US and a (very) few other countries.

well, the old-man thing is not a part of Christmas outside the US and a (very) few other countries.

The point stands.
Again, you seriously think that a holiday that revolves around a decorative tree has anything to do with Jesus?
(Same stands for Easter:
You think a holiday named after a pagan goddess and heavily involving a rabbit with a basket of, of all things, painted eggs has something to do with Jesus?)

The point stands.
Again, you seriously think that a holiday that revolves around a decorative tree has anything to do with Jesus?
(Same stands for Easter:
You think a holiday named after a pagan goddess and heavily involving a rabbit with a basket of, of all things, painted eggs has something to do with Jesus?)Who are you talking to??

Who are you talking to??

That's funny. The post you respond to is a general response to the thread and OP... you reply to THEM, and then get confused when there's a response?

That's funny. The post you respond to is a general response to the thread and OP... you reply to THEM, and then get confused when there's a response?I was just wondering why someone would try to explain to me what christmas "revolves around".

I was just wondering why someone would try to explain to me what christmas "revolves around".

I believe the other poster was explaining, in general - and that you chose to get yourself involved.

What does Nicholaus of Myra (whose holiday is 6th of december) have to do with Mithra's birthday (25th of december) ?

He started using the fact the men were performing the Mithraic rituals as an excuse to draw the women and children to his church to tell them of the birth of Christ-he's the man who invented Christmas.

personally if someone wants to give me stuff on a certain day every year hell i say bring it on atleast then i get to plan for it :p

He started using the fact the men were performing the Mithraic rituals as an excuse to draw the women and children to his church to tell them of the birth of Christ-he's the man who invented Christmas.
You should add that to the wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas)...

Christmas is losing religious ties? What religious ties?
You seriously think that a holiday revolving around a decorated tree and an old man who, despite the laws of physics, is on a mission to give presents to every single child in the world by means of magic reindeer has something to do with Jesus?

Not with Jesus, no.
But where do you get the silly idea that anything religious must be direcltly connected to Jesus or Christianity ?
Father Christmas is a religous figure. The tree is a religious symbol. The giving of presents is a religious ritual. None of them Christian, but still very much religious.

He started using the fact the men were performing the Mithraic rituals as an excuse to draw the women and children to his church to tell them of the birth of Christ-he's the man who invented Christmas.

I don't know that, but I know that in the Netherlands and parts of Belgium, Nicholas of Myra is celebrated on the 6h of december as Sinterklaas/Sint Nicolaas (Saint Nicholas), it's a children's holiday with presents. It's really folkore down here. Very funny. And the link with Santa Claus is that Dutch immigrants took the feast of Sinterklaas with them to America, where it changed into Santa Claus. That idea was picked up by Coca Cola, who turned the man in the fat, jolly guy we all know today. And also as such it was brought back to the Netherlands with the proces of americanization and to the rest of the western world.

Oh, and December the 25th was also the date on which the feast of the lightgod Mithras was celebrated in the time of the Roman Empire. So the christian church took this date to make the conversion of the mithraic people easier. The religion was quite popular back then. It was a smart move actually.

Oh, and December the 25th was also the date on which the feast of the lightgod Mithras was celebrated in the time of the Roman Empire. So the christian church took this date to make the conversion of the mithraic people easier. The religion was quite popular back then. It was a smart move actually.
what else is new?

Hasnt it seem that Christmas is losing all religious ties. It is ever rarely mentioned that it is celebrated for the birth of Christmas. Now it is getting so bad to the point that Christmas trees are being called holiday trees. I feel that this is a discrimination against Christians. No one sees Ramadam or Hannkuka(forgive me if it is misspelled) losing religious value like Christmas. I'm not saying that non Christians cant celebrate the holiday, I am saying that it shouldnt lose the basis on which it is founded on.

The US is a multi-religious secular nation. I don't see anyone celebrating the religious value of Chanekah (spelled wrong, I know) either. Christians celebrated Christmas religiously, Jews celebrate Chanekah religiously, the public celebrates them secularly. It makes sense.

After all, I don't see anyone bemoaning the loss of religion in Halloween or Easter, both of which are religious holidays.

They're only calling them "holiday trees" because Christmas has become commercialized; Christians, I assume, didn't want this to be happening (and the other religious folks didn't want christianity shoved down their throats every time they went shopping).
I'm thinking it's for the better that they're taking religion out of the market, and back into the churches (if you think that Christmas is all about stores and junk, just visit a church on Christmas-eve/day, and you'll see different).

However, these kinds of laws or whatever aren't taking place where I live; I walk into stores and they're playing jolly Christmas songs over the PA, and the Christmas decorations saturate windows and floors.

My religious faith is based on who gives away the best free stuff.

It made converting nonChristians to Christianity easier. Today's missionaries suck. They try to force people to join. You don't force them. You make them want to. Amateurs.

Yeah, Cortez was a great missionary

Yeah, Cortez was a great missionary

Well.. people did worship him like a god...

They're only calling them "holiday trees" because Christmas has become commercialized;

And because the trees had nothing to do with Christianity in the first place ;)
How to rename the very non-Christian Father Christmas however is a nice challenge. Confusing him with Saint Nicholas of Myra is simply silly...

You're definitly right. Christmas is losing all of it's original religious ties. As such, we shood bring back those religious ties by celebrating Christmas for it's original purpose: A pagan holiday celebrating the Winter Solstice.

Nah, we should use the Christmas period to once again celebrate the holiest day of the Mithras cult, once popular among Roman legionnaires.

Well.. people did worship him like a god...they should have killed him on the spot.

I think that yes, Christmas has lost most of its religious clout. So many symbols of Christmas that are used in secular culture had their roots in the religious celebration of the holiday (the Christmas wreath, for instance, is a modified Advent wreath, used by Christians as a sort of count-down to Christmas). I don't necessarily have a problem with non-practicing Christians celebrating the holiday. What bothers me is the almost secularization that has happened with Christian holidays that hasn't happened with celebrations such as Hanukkah and Ramadan (let's not even think about the mass protests in the streets of Tehran and Baghdad if they came out with a 'Ramadan Tree' for the low, low price of $19.99 at Target :p). I mean, many places call it X-Mas, effectively taking out of the name why we celebrate it in the first place.

Hasnt it seem that Christmas is losing all religious ties. It is ever rarely mentioned that it is celebrated for the birth of Christmas. Now it is getting so bad to the point that Christmas trees are being called holiday trees. I feel that this is a discrimination against Christians. No one sees Ramadam or Hannkuka(forgive me if it is misspelled) losing religious value like Christmas. I'm not saying that non Christians cant celebrate the holiday, I am saying that it shouldnt lose the basis on which it is founded on.

I say calling it christmas in the first place is discrimination against Mithras!!! :mad:

...I mean, many places call it X-Mas, effectively taking out of the name why we celebrate it in the first place.how so?

I think that yes, Christmas has lost most of its religious clout. So many symbols of Christmas that are used in secular culture had their roots in the religious celebration of the holiday (the Christmas wreath, for instance, is a modified Advent wreath, used by Christians as a sort of count-down to Christmas). I don't necessarily have a problem with non-practicing Christians celebrating the holiday. What bothers me is the almost secularization that has happened with Christian holidays that hasn't happened with celebrations such as Hanukkah and Ramadan (let's not even think about the mass protests in the streets of Tehran and Baghdad if they came out with a 'Ramadan Tree' for the low, low price of $19.99 at Target :p). I mean, many places call it X-Mas, effectively taking out of the name why we celebrate it in the first place.

taken from catholiceducation.org:

"The Advent wreath is part of our long-standing Catholic tradition. However, the actual origins are uncertain. There is evidence of pre-Christian Germanic peoples using wreathes with lit candles during the cold and dark December days as a sign of hope in the future warm and extended-sunlight days of Spring. In Scandinavia during Winter, lighted candles were placed around a wheel, and prayers were offered to the god of light to turn “the wheel of the earth” back toward the sun to lengthen the days and restore warmth."

not so christian after all eh?

And because the trees had nothing to do with Christianity in the first place ;)
How to rename the very non-Christian Father Christmas however is a nice challenge. Confusing him with Saint Nicholas of Myra is simply silly...

I'm not confusing Father Christmas with Saint Nicholas, I said that Santa Claus is derived from the Dutch Sinterklaas, which has also pre-christian origins. Nowadays they are two different characters. But the connection is well known, so it isn't silly at all. Before the Sinterklaas/Santa Claus thing, there were in Europe Father Christmas-like figures, who are being traced back to pre-christian origins. They merged with the commercialized Santa Claus, which is now the most well-known. Well, this is the short version. It is actually a lot more complicated of course.

No one sees Ramadam or Hannkuka(forgive me if it is misspelled) losing religious value like Christmas.

No one sees Ramadam or Hannkuka being mainstreamed and forced on the non-believers. Personally I think that after what Christianity has been duing in the name of "good" for the past 2000 years they deserve to be viewed as a dirty little cult.

No one sees Ramadam or Hannkuka being mainstreamed and forced on the non-believers. Personally I think that after what Christianity has been duing in the name of "good" for the past 2000 years they deserve to be viewed as a dirty little cult.

They're far from "little" but the line between religion and cult has always been fuzzy.

They're far from "little" but the line between religion and cult has always been fuzzy.
Little was more for an empahasis on how disliked and disgusted people should be with them. I'm also saying that their followers shold be the dreggs of society

Nah, we should use the Christmas period to once again celebrate the holiest day of the Mithras cult, once popular among Roman legionnaires.

Yep. Next time someone tells you Christmas has lost its true meaning, just reassure them that you have every intention of sacrificing a bull and showering in its fresh blood. That'll cheer them up.

what else is new?

Nothing under our beaming, burdensome sun, if scuttlebutt is to be trusted.

Yep. Next time someone tells you Christmas has lost its true meaning, just reassure them that you have every intention of sacrificing a bull and showering in its fresh blood. That'll cheer them up.Even cheerier when you include the yams and cranberry sauce.

For the lolz.

The rest of your thread is less "funny haha" as it is "funny sad"

Leave him alone you belligerent troll, can't you see he's new?!

Besides I agree with him, the liberals and atheists are openly fighting to eradicate Chrstianity. It may not seem like war but it is.

Therefore the skillful leader subdues the enemy's
troops without any fighting; he captures their cities
without laying siege to them; he overthrows their kingdom
without lengthy operations in the field.-Art of War by SunTzu

Eradicate Christmas's ties with religion, non of those religions are recognized and as they get less recognition they slowly begin to fade since less people are aware of them or get harrassed for political incorrectness if they dare mention Christmas's ties with religion.

I'm not Christian but replacing the word Christmas with "holiday" is just plain stupid, like the use of "freedom" instead of French.

Yep. Next time someone tells you Christmas has lost its true meaning, just reassure them that you have every intention of sacrificing a bull and showering in its fresh blood. That'll cheer them up.
The idea that Christmas is actually a pagan holiday is ridiculous. This seems to be the reasoning behind it:
Christmas falls on December 25.
Saturnalia/Mithras cult falls on December 25.
THUS
Christmas is really Saturnalia/Mithras cult.

Following this logic, we can come to some shocking conclusions:
I was born on December 21.
Joseph Stalin was born on December 21.
THUS
I am really Joseph Stalin.

Besides I agree with him, the liberals and atheists are openly fighting to eradicate Chrstianity. It may not seem like war but it is.We should fight every shadow that seems like it's more than it actually is. You never know what's lurking in there besides our imaginations.
:p


Eradicate Christmas's ties with religion, non of those religions are recognized and as they get less recognition they slowly begin to fade since less people are aware of them or get harrassed for political incorrectness if they dare mention Christmas's ties with religion.What happens if you have "christmas" without religion, exactly? What do you have?
I'm i gonna get harassed if i mention that there's quite clearly an obvious connection betwixt Christ - mass and religion?
This sounds like bullshit. That's okay, though, considering the nature of the subject.

I'm not Christian but replacing the word Christmas with "holiday" is just plain stupid, like the use of "freedom" instead of French.

I agree. Alas the war on Christmas continues (http://wocm.ytmnd.com/)

I agree. Alas the war on Christmas continues (http://wocm.ytmnd.com/)

And the word holiday = "Holy Day", so - it's still religious. :p

I agree. Alas the war on Christmas continues (http://wocm.ytmnd.com/)

Don't worry. It had its day in the sun. Now it's ... oh, how did Roger Waters put it?
I've got nicotine stains on my fingers,
Got a silver spoon on a chain ....
Got this Grand piano to prop up my mortal remains.

Don't worry. It had its day in the sun. Now it's ... oh, how did Roger Waters put it?

The ytmnd part was the comic relief, for those too ignorant whether it be willful or otherwise, to see. ;)

The ytmnd part was the comic relief, for those too ignorant whether it be willful or otherwise, to see. ;)

The rub here is that i didn't actually click on the link, since i've got "Gladiator" on the tele. :p

Is it worth it?

The idea that Christmas is actually a pagan holiday is ridiculous. This seems to be the reasoning behind it:
Christmas falls on December 25.
Saturnalia/Mithras cult falls on December 25.
THUS
Christmas is really Saturnalia/Mithras cult.

Following this logic, we can come to some shocking conclusions:
I was born on December 21.
Joseph Stalin was born on December 21.
THUS
I am really Joseph Stalin.

Not really. Back in the early days of Christianity, there are records of Christmas being celebrated in March/April. It was moved to accomodate the Romans

Not really. Back in the early days of Christianity, there are records of Christmas being celebrated in March/April. It was moved to accomodate the Romans

Acommodus Maximus?

The rub here is that i didn't actually click on the link, since i've got "Gladiator" on the tele. :p

Is it worth it?

If you want to laugh at this pointless crusades's irony and satire. :)

Not really. Back in the early days of Christianity, there are records of Christmas being celebrated in March/April. It was moved to accomodate the Romans
I'm not saying the date is not completely arbitrary. I doubt Jesus was actually born December 25, and I'm sure the Pope (I forget which) picked the date because there were already plenty of celebrations, it being so close the the Winter Solstice and all. But that doesn't mean the holiday was the product of Saturnalia, or whatever was being celebrated.

The idea that Christmas is actually a pagan holiday is ridiculous. This seems to be the reasoning behind it:
Christmas falls on December 25.
Saturnalia/Mithras cult falls on December 25.
THUS
Christmas is really Saturnalia/Mithras cult.

Following this logic, we can come to some shocking conclusions:
I was born on December 21.
Joseph Stalin was born on December 21.
THUS
I am really Joseph Stalin.


Only if your birthday used to be in May or August or something and you moved it.

The timing of Christmas and some of its traditions were set in order to woo believers from other faiths over to Christianity. What on earth does a tree with candles on it have to do with the biblical account of the Christmas story? Not a thing. Just like rabbits and decorated eggs have nothing to do with the biblical account of the crucifixion... ("Hey, Jesus... Peter down here. Listen, we can't get the Romans to let you down off that cross thingy, but we dressed Thomas up in this bunny suit to entertain you and brought you some chocolate and painted some eggs too... Oh damn, here come the Romans. Hide the eggs!")

The idea that Christmas is actually a pagan holiday is ridiculous. This seems to be the reasoning behind it:
Christmas falls on December 25.
Saturnalia/Mithras cult falls on December 25.
THUS
Christmas is really Saturnalia/Mithras cult.

Following this logic, we can come to some shocking conclusions:
I was born on December 21.
Joseph Stalin was born on December 21.
THUS
I am really Joseph Stalin.
:eek: we.have.the.same.birthday.

you are Smunkee. Live it, love it, be Smunkeeful!

I'm not saying the date is not completely arbitrary. I doubt Jesus was actually born December 25, and I'm sure the Pope (I forget which) picked the date because there were already plenty of celebrations, it being so close the the Winter Solstice and all. But that doesn't mean the holiday was the product of Saturnalia, or whatever was being celebrated.

Yes, but things like Christmas trees and the date show that Christmas already has quite a few non-christian traditions in it already.

Yes, but things like Christmas trees and the date show that Christmas already has quite a few non-christian traditions in it already.

Predictable, really, given the nature of mostly-filler it consisted of before usurping everyone elses' substance.
:p

The timing of Christmas and some of its traditions were set in order to woo believers from other faiths over to Christianity. What on earth does a tree with candles on it have to do with the biblical account of the Christmas story? Not a thing. Just like rabbits and decorated eggs have nothing to do with the biblical account of the crucifixion... ("Hey, Jesus... Peter down here. Listen, we can't get the Romans to let you down off that cross thingy, but we dressed Thomas up in this bunny suit to entertain you and brought you some chocolate and painted some eggs too... Oh damn, here come the Romans. Hide the eggs!")

It's funny you mention that, because those very events were described in the apocryphic Gospel of Gob Ilk Yon (chapter four, verse 2).

I understand what you're saying about Christmas traditions being pagan carryovers; that makes more sense. Easter is an even better example, it's very name comes from a pagan holiday. But the reason for the holiday itself (birth of Christ, death of Christ, etc.) is a product of Christianity. It's an interesting religion in that it can easily adapt to many different places, picking up different traditions from all of them while still remaining fundamentally the same. It's probably a reason for its longevity.

:eek: we.have.the.same.birthday.

you are Smunkee. Live it, love it, be Smunkeeful!

And Deus Malum, incidentally.

And Deus Malum, incidentally.

we knew that. (Smunkee has separated into two distinct Smunktastik beings)

And Deus Malum, incidentally.

Happy birthdays, y'all!
...where does one line up for the spankin's? *still recovering from LaDameSansMerci's b-day*

(Smunkee has separated into two distinct Smunktastik beings)
Particle and Wave? :p
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/evil/870.gif

Happy birthdays, y'all!
...where does one line up for the spankin's? *still recovering from LaDameSansMerci's b-day*

Heh. Turning 21 on the 21st, so it's going to be a wild weekend. Hitting the bars, throwing a huge party on Saturday, etc.

Besides I agree with him, the liberals and atheists are openly fighting to eradicate Chrstianity. It may not seem like war but it is.


By NS terms, I'm probably liberal. I'm definitely an Atheist... not on anyone's terms... but simply because I don't believe in any gods.

Since I figure that qualifies me to respond - you're full of it. I'm not fighting to aradicate Christmas - although each time someone walks up to me and hands me a stupid flyer about salvation because "He is the reason for the season", it does leap to mind that the average Christian (apparently) has no idea about ideas like syncretism, or the origin of the holidays they claim to hold dear.

:eek: we.have.the.same.birthday.

you are Smunkee. Live it, love it, be Smunkeeful!

And Deus Malum, incidentally.

Oh good, more Solsticians!
I'm looking forward to this year. I've heard that in 2012 the world will end on our birthday, so I'm trying to enjoy the five I have left. (If God is nice at all, he'll destroy the world around 8:00 p.m., so I still have time for cake.)

The idea that Christmas is actually a pagan holiday is ridiculous. This seems to be the reasoning behind it:
Christmas falls on December 25.
Saturnalia/Mithras cult falls on December 25.
THUS
Christmas is really Saturnalia/Mithras cult.

Following this logic, we can come to some shocking conclusions:
I was born on December 21.
Joseph Stalin was born on December 21.
THUS
I am really Joseph Stalin.

Christmas falls on December 25th... but Saturnalia already did. Saturnalia had the feasting and gift-giving traditions, the family and friend get-togethers. The birth of Jesus in December is totally non-scriptural - the festival was simply placed on top of an existing festival, bells and all.

It's not that they share a day - it's that one group simply tried to claim the festival of another. So all that 'reason for the season' crap? Jesus is about as much to do with the 25th December as Snoopy is.

By NS terms, I'm probably liberal. I'm definitely an Atheist... not on anyone's terms... but simply because I don't believe in any gods.

Since I figure that qualifies me to respond - you're full of it. I'm not fighting to aradicate Christmas - although each time someone walks up to me and hands me a stupid flyer about salvation because "He is the reason for the season", it does leap to mind that the average Christian (apparently) has no idea about ideas like syncretism, or the origin of the holidays they claim to hold dear.
My apologies to you, Grave, for a reply i gave on that other thread. Upon review, it appeared that i was harassing you instead of helping to supplement your point.
*humbles*

Christmas falls on December 25th... but Saturnalia already did. Saturnalia had the feasting and gift-giving traditions, the family and friend get-togethers. The birth of Jesus in December is totally non-scriptural - the festival was simply placed on top of an existing festival, bells and all.

It's not that they share a day - it's that one group simply tried to claim the festival of another. So all that 'reason for the season' crap? Jesus is about as much to do with the 25th December as Snoopy is.

But Jesus has everything to do with Christmas. The Church did not claim Saturnalia as its own, instead, it took advantage of a time that was already celebrated by replacing it with Christmas. I doubt that today we would still celebrate Saturnalia, even if Christmas were in April. At least for modern times, Christmas is the "reason for the season."

By NS terms, I'm probably liberal. I'm definitely an Atheist... not on anyone's terms... but simply because I don't believe in any gods.

Since I figure that qualifies me to respond - you're full of it. I'm not fighting to aradicate Christmas - although each time someone walks up to me and hands me a stupid flyer about salvation because "He is the reason for the season", it does leap to mind that the average Christian (apparently) has no idea about ideas like syncretism, or the origin of the holidays they claim to hold dear.

Well then sir you are a moderate atheist, however you can't deny that there are those who crusade for atheism.

you can't deny that there are those who crusade for atheism.
They have the catchiest lyrics. *shrug*

My apologies to you, Grave, for a reply i gave on that other thread. Upon review, it appeared that i was harassing you instead of helping to supplement your point.
*humbles*

No harm done. I'm big enough and ugly enough to take a little bit of heat. I figure if you're giving me a spanking, I probably deserve it. That's the spirit in which it was taken, and I attempted to moderate my efforts accordingly. :)

But Jesus has everything to do with Christmas. The Church did not claim Saturnalia as its own, instead, it took advantage of a time that was already celebrated by replacing it with Christmas. I doubt that today we would still celebrate Saturnalia, even if Christmas were in April. At least for modern times, Christmas is the "reason for the season."

You don't see it. The early church took a festival, keeping the trimmings, keeping the date, the manner of celebration... and simply changed it's name. Thus - what we pretend is the celebration of the birth (if he even existed) of Jesus, is just that - a pretense. It has nothing to do with the actual date he might have been born, it has nothing to do with any kind of birthday celebration, it has no scriptural basis at all (indeed, flip open your bible - birthday celebrations are always linked with tragedy in scripture... it's actually kind of anti-scriptural).

You are making like they had this 'birth of Jesus' festival that they urgently had to find a home for... but, in reality, it was entirely a matter of convenience to hide the Saturnalia festivities, by claiming the date for something else.

Well then sir you are a moderate atheist, however you can't deny that there are those who crusade for atheism.

Actually - mostly they crusade against the oppressive omnipresence of Christianity.

No harm done. I'm big enough and ugly enough to take a little bit of heat. I figure if you're giving me a spanking, I probably deserve it. That's the spirit in which it was taken, and I attempted to moderate my efforts accordingly. :)
That's the thing - i thought i was replying to the other guy!
I can't see a good reason to spank you about anything. Besides, i'd be sorely asking for it if i tried.
Again, i apologize.

That's the thing - i thought i was replying to the other guy!
I can't see a good reason to spank you about anything. Besides, i'd be sorely asking for it if i tried.
Again, i apologize.

Haha! That's extra funny, then! And I went all on my best behaviour and everything. :D

No apologies needed, my friend. (But, earnestly and instantly accepted if you feel they are).

Oh good, more Solsticians!
I'm looking forward to this year. I've heard that in 2012 the world will end on our birthday, so I'm trying to enjoy the five I have left. (If God is nice at all, he'll destroy the world around 8:00 p.m., so I still have time for cake.)

Happy Birthday to you as well. *bows*

Haha! That's extra funny, then! And I went all on my best behaviour and everything. :D

No apologies needed, my friend. (But, earnestly and instantly accepted if you feel they are).

I was doing what i often do - watching a flick at the same time ... and i apparently got distracted while reading. I'm actually doing the same thing now, but i'm paying better attention. :)

I was doing what i often do - watching a flick at the same time ... and i apparently got distracted while reading. I'm actually doing the same thing now, but i'm paying better attention. :)
to the movie?

to the movie?

Nah, the conversation.
At least, i was at the time. Now i'm distracted again.
Low battery and such.

But Jesus has everything to do with Christmas. The Church did not claim Saturnalia as its own, instead, it took advantage of a time that was already celebrated by replacing it with Christmas. I doubt that today we would still celebrate Saturnalia, even if Christmas were in April. At least for modern times, Christmas is the "reason for the season."

The only part of Christmas that has anything to do with Jesus Christ is the going to church part.

All the rest comes from various Pagan celebrations.

The early church put Christmas on the same day as Saturnalia on purpose. Partly to be like "oh, you can still celebrate on this day in our religion," maybe partly so no one would notice their celebrations and think it odd.

Nah, the conversation.
At least, i was at the time. Now i'm distracted again.
Low battery and such.the conversation runs on low battery??

It's funny you mention that, because those very events were described in the apocryphic Gospel of Gob Ilk Yon (chapter four, verse 2).

I understand what you're saying about Christmas traditions being pagan carryovers; that makes more sense. Easter is an even better example, it's very name comes from a pagan holiday. But the reason for the holiday itself (birth of Christ, death of Christ, etc.) is a product of Christianity. It's an interesting religion in that it can easily adapt to many different places, picking up different traditions from all of them while still remaining fundamentally the same. It's probably a reason for its longevity.

Well..... probably not. For instance, virgin birth was a very popular thing in those days... anybody who was anybody had one. Just about every piece of the Jesus myth can be pieced together with bits from older religions. Roman and Greek gods had sons who were human, many various gods performed miracles of all sorts, most pagan religions have their sacrificed gods as well (and the timing for sacrificing a god in the spring to insure good crops, which seems a fair metaphor for saving the faithful, is pretty darned coincidental to Easter), and so on. If you go through the bible in its entirety, you will find that most of it is plagiarized from somewhere else, but that is not uncommon, most religions have similarly based myths, since what they spoke to at the time were similar concerns "where did we come from, who put us here, what should we do next, what happens after we die?"

the conversation runs on low battery??

Soooooooooooooo sigworthy. The whole "speaking in tongues" thing works here.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6997888-0-large.jpg