NationStates Jolt Archive

Rolling squid;13271294']link (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/12/07/germany.scientology.ap/index.html)

Is it just me, or is Germany steadly moving to another Facist government? Banning something becuse it contradicts with the constution seems a little harsh, isn't the constution suppose to be an outline for the gov't, not the people?

Huh? What the....?

'Banning something because it contradicts the constitution' is fascist?

Okay okay, lemme see if I have this right.

So in the States, if one tries to make laws restricting the amount of guns available to it's citersans. Then saying that no laws of this kind can be made as it contradicts the constitution, is in fact fascist? Is that what you are saying here?

Sophistry doesn't justify religious discrimination. You also didn't answer my question. What part of the definition of religion do they fail to fit?They consider their scripture a trade secret.

They consider their scripture a trade secret.

And this disqualifies them how? Pagans had secret dances at secret meeting places with secret ceremonies as well that only members knew about. Does this disqualify them as a religion as well?

And this disqualifies them how? Pagans had secret dances at secret meeting places with secret ceremonies as well that only members knew about. Does this disqualify them as a religion as well?Did they call them trade secrets in modern courts? Scientology is acting like a business, not a faith. People outside the organization that "follow" Scientology are sued for copyright infringement. Religions excommunicate or call people heretics. Businesses sue for copyright infringement.

And this disqualifies them how? Pagans had secret dances at secret meeting places with secret ceremonies as well that only members knew about. Does this disqualify them as a religion as well?

Ahhh but Pagans don't require you to pay them for the knowledge!

And this disqualifies them how? Pagans had secret dances at secret meeting places with secret ceremonies as well that only members knew about. Does this disqualify them as a religion as well?

Are those pagans currently recognised as a religion in Germany?

Are those pagans currently recognised as a religion in Germany?

Those with their history in anything Teutonic, I guess it would be weird if they were not.

Those with their history in anything Teutonic, I guess it would be weird if they were not.

I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case though.


Also, off the top of my head I cannot think of any Teutonic pagans that had "secret dances at secret meeting places with secret ceremonies."

But I'm not authority on the matter.

I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case though.


Also, off the top of my head I cannot think of any Teutonic pagans that had "secret dances at secret meeting places with secret ceremonies."

But I'm not authority on the matter.

Heh yeah that's more for the Wiccan's and their Thelemic cusions.

Those with their history in anything Teutonic, I guess it would be weird if they were not.They aren't. The only religions I know for sure are recognized are protestantism, catholocism, and judaism. I think islam is as well, and in Berlin, the Jehova's Witnesses. Other than that, there are no officially recognized churches. You still have freedom of religion, which would apply to pagan beliefs, they just don't have the right to have their own RE classes, receive tithes, or other such officially stuff.

I've never understood how Scientology manages to get any members at all, let alone how it has achieved such international prominence that it is the focus of issues like this.

Heh yeah that's more for the Wiccan's and their Thelemic cusions.

I also suppose that it is possible to argue that they aren't a religion due to their insistence that the stuff the believe is science and has little in the way of metaphysics AFAIK.

I've never understood how Scientology manages to get any members at all, let alone how it has achieved such international prominence that it is the focus of issues like this.

Underhanded tricks. They generally offer stress tests or the like, and tell you that you're terribly stressed, and in great need of their help. Scare you into joining sort of thing. And they're extremely nice to famous people.

I've never understood how Scientology manages to get any members at all, let alone how it has achieved such international prominence that it is the focus of issues like this.

I agree, it is soooo clearly a con.

Many years back I popped into a Scientology shop in my lunch hour to do some sort of 'mind test'(hey I'm a sucker for new things). It went all fine, but when I put my hand out for the results, ohhh no mate, we can't show you them, you have to buy this book to find out what it all means.


Naaa mate, you keep ya book and I'll keep my cash!

Underhanded tricks. They generally offer stress tests or the like, and tell you that you're terribly stressed, and in great need of their help. Scare you into joining sort of thing. And they're extremely nice to famous people.And to infamous people?

Underhanded tricks. They generally offer stress tests or the like, and tell you that you're terribly stressed, and in great need of their help. Scare you into joining sort of thing. And they're extremely nice to famous people.

Unlike any other religion of course. Hello ive just met you, but im here to tell you you are a sinner and unless you buy into my story you will suffer in in a place of burning agony and pain until the end of all days. Like thats SOOOO much different.

Unlike any other religion of course. Hello ive just met you, but im here to tell you you are a sinner and unless you buy into my story you will suffer in in a place of burning agony and pain until the end of all days. Like thats SOOOO much different.

"But they do it too!" has been a non-starter since I was about 5.

"But they do it too!" has been a non-starter since I was about 5.

Well to get you to acknowledge thier tactics are similar is at least a start :)

Underhanded tricks. They generally offer stress tests or the like, and tell you that you're terribly stressed, and in great need of their help. Scare you into joining sort of thing. And they're extremely nice to famous people.

Maybe what they offer is somehow appealing to desperate or otherwise ill-contented folks, but I still just don't see how anybody capable of rational thought could ever buy (literally, in this case) into that stuff, regardless of how many crazed celebrities support it! It's just mind boggling. I mean, one quick glance on the internet tells you all that you need to know about the whole thing! Invented by a science fiction writer, costs you more money than a car just to read their 'texts', implicated in god-knows how many nefarious schemes all over the place... madness.

Well to get you to acknowledge thier tactics are similar is at least a start :)

Sure, but it doesn't mean the investigation into them and a possible ban is wrong.

It is completely irrelevent to the topic at hand.

And to infamous people?
Hmmm, I'm not sure. One would assume that they'd have little to do with them, but then they themselves are rather infamous at this stage. It'd be confusing for all involved if the Church of Scientology tried to boycott the Church of Scientology.
Unlike any other religion of course. Hello ive just met you, but im here to tell you you are a sinner and unless you buy into my story you will suffer in in a place of burning agony and pain until the end of all days. Like thats SOOOO much different.

Except it is. Their scare tactics are far more tangible. Most non-believers of Religion X don't give a rat's ass about Religions X's Afterlife For Naughty People. But stress, any armchair physician will tell you that stress can cause real medical problems.

'Oh come along and take this stress test, we'll sort out everything in your life. Oh, no, you see, you have to go to some of these courses first, that'll help you. And you'll need to buy these books. And this equipment that doesn't really do what we claim it does. And some more courses. And once you get to a high enough rank within our little group we'll tell you the big secret, and you'll gain fantastic magical powers. Oh, and if you go against us at any point we'll ruin your life, possibly even kill you outright, so, why don't you come right along with me.'

Maybe what they offer is somehow appealing to desperate or otherwise ill-contented folks, but I still just don't see how anybody capable of rational thought could ever buy (literally, in this case) into that stuff, regardless of how many crazed celebrities support it! It's just mind boggling. I mean, one quick glance on the internet tells you all that you need to know about the whole thing! Invented by a science fiction writer, costs you more money than a car just to read their 'texts', implicated in god-knows how many nefarious schemes all over the place... madness.
Even if it was just a religion without the whole scam thing, and the evil thing, it's a fucking joke of a religion. We're all omnipotent beings called Thetans, but we were thrown into a volcano by an evil alien overlord called Xenu, who then dropped an H-bomb on us, somehow causing us to forget our superpowers and inhabit the bodies of humans. Seriously, the Jewish zombie who was his own father makes more sense than this.

Maybe what they offer is somehow appealing to desperate or otherwise ill-contented folks, but I still just don't see how anybody capable of rational thought could ever buy (literally, in this case) into that stuff, regardless of how many crazed celebrities support it! It's just mind boggling. I mean, one quick glance on the internet tells you all that you need to know about the whole thing! Invented by a science fiction writer, costs you more money than a car just to read their 'texts', implicated in god-knows how many nefarious schemes all over the place... madness.

They use psychological tricks to confuse people. They do things like make you stare into someones eyes for 60-90 min nonstop. This has the effect of making your mind wander and can even in some cases cause halusinations. This is a normal biological reaction because your mind is not used to being idle in that way so it can "hiccup" so to speak. But it is a very strong and intense feeling reaction. The Scientologists create a backstory reinforced by this natural reaction like "See its these body theatens on you causing this blahblah ". Suddenly people stop using rational thought because these Scientologists are actually making your body have real reactions so they make a common mistake and equate the reactions with thier story of explanation.

They have? In which instances?

The courts have also upheld the right of the Federal Office to investigate and monitor the CoS in Germany. But I suppose that is by the by.

I read that "the German administrative courts and appeals courts have consistently held that the Scientology is to be afforded protection under the German Constitution" in wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_as_a_state-recognized_religion

under Germany
They have three sources for that section I cited, but only one of them has a link online and its in German.

here:
http://fhh.hamburg.de/stadt/Aktuell/behoerden/inneres/arbeitsgruppe-scientology/rechtsprechung/start.html

So, hopefully I can trust wikipedia here.

And yes, the courts have also upheld the right to investigate SoC. But the investigation should be used to gather evidence, which will be used in court against SoC.

If the government simply gathers evidence, and then bans the SoC without presenting the evidence in court, what's the point of ever gathering it?

If there is evidence that would warrant a ban, then the government should do so through the courts. Otherwise, they would bypass the courts' decisions to allow SoC to practice.

The part where they are a religion.

On what grounds do you consider them to not be a religion? People making this claim have yet to answer the question.

Nice try at a straw man.


I'll check the links when I have time. Actually posting information in the forum with a citation showing it came from a reliable source is usually a better way of getting me to read it, I don't often have time to run down every link someone posts (FREX right now I have about 15 minutes left to do everything I wanted to do on the computer today). By the way, how exactly is it a "straw man" when I ask for proof of very serious accusations that I've seen made without accompaniment of proof?

They aren't. The only religions I know for sure are recognized are protestantism, catholocism, and judaism. I think islam is as well, and in Berlin, the Jehova's Witnesses. Other than that, there are no officially recognized churches. You still have freedom of religion, which would apply to pagan beliefs, they just don't have the right to have their own RE classes, receive tithes, or other such officially stuff.

If they aren't allowed to act as a religion (having RE classes, receiving tithes, or other officially stuff) then how exactly is that freedom of religion? A country with freedom of religion applies it's laws equally to all religions.

Did they call them trade secrets in modern courts? Scientology is acting like a business, not a faith. People outside the organization that "follow" Scientology are sued for copyright infringement. Religions excommunicate or call people heretics. Businesses sue for copyright infringement.

I fail to see what part of this contradicts with definition of the word religion. I repeat, sophistry does not permit bigotry.

And as for serious, how about subversive elements in order to undermine the government? Infiltration, espionage, and information theft inside government branches?

What about blowing up abortion clinics? Should we ban Christianity because of rogue elements within it?

Operation Snow White mean anything to you?

No, it doesn't. I think I've herd some vague references to it.

By the way, how exactly is it a "straw man" when I ask for proof of very serious accusations that I've seen made without accompaniment of proof?

When you throw in unrelated scenarios to try and distract from the issue at hand. Also known as the Chewbacca defense.

What about blowing up abortion clinics? Should we ban Christianity because of rogue elements within it?


The Army of God, the organization that is responsible for said acts, is designated a terrorist organization. And last I heard, terrorist organizations were outlawed. Scientology in itself is a rogue organization. It does not have any subsidiary organizations committing the acts attributed to it.


No, it doesn't. I think I've herd some vague references to it.

An operation directed by Scientology's leaders to infiltrate US government and intelligence services in order to steal all negative information regarding them and replace it with positives in the 1970s if I remember the date correctly. Also uncovered was evidence that they had directed death threats against US leaders while framing their detractors for it.

If it was a Russian or any other national who did that at the time, said Russian would have gotten the firing squad.

Scientology's leaders spent not even a single day in jail. Why should they get different treatment?

When you throw in unrelated scenarios to try and distract from the issue at hand. Also known as the Chewbacca defense.



The Army of God, the organization that is responsible for said acts, is designated a terrorist organization. And last I heard, terrorist organizations were outlawed. Scientology in itself is a rogue organization. It does not have any subsidiary organizations committing the acts attributed to it.



An operation directed by Scientology's leaders to infiltrate US government and intelligence services in order to steal all negative information regarding them and replace it with positives in the 1970s if I remember the date correctly. Also uncovered was evidence that they had directed death threats against US leaders while framing their detractors for it.

If it was a Russian or any other national who did that at the time, said Russian would have gotten the firing squad.

Scientology's leaders spent not even a single day in jail. Why should they get different treatment?

If all this is true, and I am not denying it, why not let the courts handle it?

When you throw in unrelated scenarios to try and distract from the issue at hand. Also known as the Chewbacca defense.

Except with no evidence posted (at the time I made that statement) I had no idea whether or not the three scenarios were equally spurious. My point was that people making the accusation would need to provide evidence that these crimes by Scientologists were any more real than the horror stories told by the ignorant about Jews and Pagans. I still have not had time to peruse that link so I while I will admit that the crimes did take place I still don't know if it was Scientology that was at fault or if it was a rogue faction of Scientologists instead.

An operation directed by Scientology's leaders to infiltrate US government and intelligence services in order to steal all negative information regarding them and replace it with positives in the 1970s if I remember the date correctly. Also uncovered was evidence that they had directed death threats against US leaders while framing their detractors for it.

Source me on this one. I want to know that this info is coming from a more reliable source than the one that told me about Majestic 12 and the aliens in Area 51.

If it was a Russian or any other national who did that at the time, said Russian would have gotten the firing squad.

Did the people actually involved get jail time? Did the people involved prove that they did this on the orders of whoever was in charge of Scientology at the time?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_controversy

Look up the links mentioned in the article. Not the article on wiki itself, but the links. BBC and a few other respected news sources cover this.

Ok, 63 links. I don't have time to go through every single one. Read through a small sampling.

I saw one case where the Church was found guilty of libel because they put out leaflets describing a woman as a hate campaigner - this after she stood outside of one of their bookstores and handed out a document described only as "very critical of the Church of Scientology".

In another the Church settled a wrongful death suit when someone died after receiving "medical" treatment from Scientolgist healers. The CoS was found not guilty in a criminal trial and wound up paying restitution in a civil trial where the burden of proof is much lower. I'm not saying that their medical treatment is in any way effective but just like with the Church of Christian Scientists and other churches that frown on doctors it is the right of an adult to make medical decisions, even bad ones.

Another mentions that they filed a libel suit over a Time Magazine story "Scientology: The Cult of Greed". A judge dropped the suit.

If you have articles from reputable sources about the CoS actually killing someone or framing them for a crime please let me know. None of the links I clicked on had anything on that subject.

If you have articles from reputable sources about the CoS actually killing someone or framing them for a crime please let me know. None of the links I clicked on had anything on that subject.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White but keep in mind most of the people that did this arnt even alive anymore. It was nearly 40 years ago.

( still have not had time to peruse that link so I while I will admit that the crimes did take place I still don't know if it was Scientology that was at fault or if it was a rogue faction of Scientologists instead.

If the head of Scientology gives the orders, and Scientologists carry it out, I think it's safe to say that Scientology is at fault.


Source me on this one. I want to know that this info is coming from a more reliable source than the one that told me about Majestic 12 and the aliens in Area 51.

First, for general reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_snow_white

Then for more detailed accounts, including legal documents.

http://www.lermanet.com/reference/77Granjurypart1.htm
http://www.lermanet.com/reference/stipulationUSvsMSH.txt

A look at the actual documents detailing the operation by Scientology

http://www.xenu.net/archive/go/ops/go732/go732.htm

Also, see Operation Freakout, more criminal acts done and planned by the organization.


Did the people actually involved get jail time? Did the people involved prove that they did this on the orders of whoever was in charge of Scientology at the time?

Further examination shows that my earlier statement of non-jail time for Operation Snow White were incorrect. Five years for this offense.

Operation Freakout however, did not produce any additional jailtime for the conspirators.

If the head of Scientology gives the orders, and Scientologists carry it out, I think it's safe to say that Scientology is at fault.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_snow_white

http://www.lermanet.com/reference/77Granjurypart1.htm
http://www.lermanet.com/reference/stipulationUSvsMSH.txt

http://www.xenu.net/archive/go/ops/go732/go732.htm

Also, see Operation Freakout, more criminal acts done and planned by the organization.



All well and said, except these are all charges from 30 years or more ago. Thats hardly a standard for banning an organization a full generation later.

All well and said, except these are all charges from 30 years or more ago. Thats hardly a standard for banning an organization a full generation later.

So? It's not like they've dropped the practices that were in use 30 years ago now have they? The use of their Fair Game policy is still active, and they still have a tendency to sue their detractors, as well as harass and commit libel against them, as proven by the incident with John Sweeney.

And oh look, bribing police officers.

http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/mostpopular.var.1035044.mostviewed.police_received_gifts_from_church_of_scientology.php

What's the penalty for being caught while giving bribes?

And what's this? Still arguing that its critics are fair game?

http://www.lermanet2.com/reference/wollersheim.htm