NationStates Jolt Archive


US Jaguar dealers oppose Indian bidders

Aryavartha
07-12-2007, 15:54
http://www.rediff.com/money/2007/dec/07tata.htm


US Jaguar dealers oppose Indian bidders

PTI | December 07, 2007 | 18:23 IST

An Indian ownership of Jaguar, one of the two luxury cars that the US car maker Ford is selling off, is not acceptable to the American dealers of the brand.

Tata group and Mahindra & Mahindra are two of the front-runners for acquisition of Jaguar and Land Rover, along with a private equity bidder,� One Equity that is led by a former Ford CEO.

While Tatas and M&M are believed to have an upper hand in the race, according to a media report in New York, the Jaguar dealers of the US are in favour of the One Equity bid.

The Wall Street Journal quoted Ken Gorin, chairman of the Jaguar Business Operations Council, as saying that the two brands should not be sold to the Indian bidders.

"I don't believe the US public is ready for ownership out of India for a luxury-car brand such as Jaguar... I believe it would severely throw a tremendous cast of doubt over the viability of the brand," Gorin told the business daily.

Gorin warned against selling the premium Jaguar brand to either Tata Group or Mahindra and Mahindra citing "unique image issues," the report said.

According to Gorin, the US dealers also prefer One Equity Partners because the man leading its pursuit of Jaguar and Land Rover is Jacques Nasser, a managing director at the firm.

However, the Jaguar Land Rover (JLR) union is reportedly favouring the bid from Indian conglomerate Tata Group, mainly due to the group's manufacturing expertise.

Further, the union is believed to be apprehensive about the bid by a private equity firm, according to various British media reports over the past few weeks.

All the three bidders had made presentations to union representatives on November 20, while they are understood to have submitted their revised and binding bids on Wednesday.

The WSJ report quoted Gorin as saying he was not judging the management capabilities of Tatas or Mahindras.

"My concern is perception (in the marketplace), and perception is reality... It's about saying there are unique image issues with two of the bidders that the other one doesn't have," the paper quoted him as saying.

Gorin pointed out that his concerns would not be relevant if Jaguar was a mass-market brand. "We are a luxury brand. There are a number of subjective items that create the lustre of a brand ...I do not mean to be negative towards anyone. I don't think we could have a Chinese-owned Jaguar either," he said.

The report said that Gorin's comments illustrate how groups with a stake in the future of Jaguar and Land Rover are choosing sides as Ford approaches a decision on selling them.

"Last month, about 60 senior shop stewards representing workers at Jaguar and Land Rover voted in favour of a resolution supporting Tata's bid," the paper added.


LOL @ "unique image issues" -> "how dare dem 3rd world countries" :p

Having worked for TATA's vehicle manufacturing company (TATA Motors) for a few years, I can see why the unions support their bid. They are a very benevolent company for workers. They are also flush with funds from booming revenues from many other companies under the TATA brand...so money won't be a problem. TATA recently acquired Corus for $12 billion.

I am amused by the western opposition to such proposals from companies in India and China. There was a big ruckus in France when Mittal offered to buy Arcelor. Mittal was even based out of UK, although owned by Lakshmi Mittal - an Indian.

Times are changing. It is better if we get on with it rather than trying to oppose it.
Nipeng
07-12-2007, 16:08
It's almost as bad as if IBM was bought out by a Chinese company. Oh, wait...
I understand the issues the Jaguar folks are having, but everyone who thinks that we can return to the times when Made in West meant High Quality and Made in East quite the opposite should wake up and notice the reality.
Marrakech II
07-12-2007, 16:09
I wonder if somehow the Chinese acquired ownership of the Mercedes brand would work out. I am the first to admit that I would not buy a new Mercedes under a Chinese ownership. I can also say that as a die hard Mercedes guy. Call it racism if you like but unfortunately they are equated with crap products. I think it would be the same with the perception of India right or wrong.

Edit:

Also the image of quality of a nations products is earned not demanded or bought. Japan when I was growing up was viewed the same as Korea or China of today. It took many years for the Japanese to turn the corner. The Koreans are starting to turn it today however the Chinese and India have a ways before they earn the consumer respect for quality.
Aryavartha
07-12-2007, 16:27
Also the image of quality of a nations products is earned not demanded or bought. Japan when I was growing up was viewed the same as Korea or China of today. It took many years for the Japanese to turn the corner. The Koreans are starting to turn it today however the Chinese and India have a ways before they earn the consumer respect for quality.

I don't think it is a "image of quality" issue. TATA motors is not in the league of Hondas and Toyotas but they are an evolving company which is improving in quality. When I worked at their manufacturing plant, I did see a lot of push into quality initiatives like CPM, TQM, 6 sigma, Lean , Kaizen etc. And it's not like Ford is known for its quality either. :p

It is like the dealer euphemistically says "unique image problem" -> namely "3rd world". I bet that if it was from an European company he wouldn't be saying that...regardless of the quality and manufacturing expertise of the European company.
Peepelonia
07-12-2007, 16:33
I am amused by the western opposition to such proposals from companies in India and China. There was a big ruckus in France when Mittal offered to buy Arcelor. Mittal was even based out of UK, although owned by Lakshmi Mittal - an Indian.

Times are changing. It is better if we get on with it rather than trying to oppose it.

well I don't know about the whole of the Western World. Our lovly mayor has just gone to India to increase trade to London.
Marrakech II
07-12-2007, 16:34
I don't think it is a "image of quality" issue. TATA motors is not in the league of Hondas and Toyotas but they are an evolving company which is improving in quality. When I worked at their manufacturing plant, I did see a lot of push into quality initiatives like CPM, TQM, 6 sigma, Lean , Kaizen etc. And it's not like Ford is known for its quality either. :p

It is like the dealer euphemistically says "unique image problem" -> namely "3rd world". I bet that if it was from an European company he wouldn't be saying that...regardless of the quality and manufacturing expertise of the European company.


How many Europeans and Americans know who TATA is? I would gather not very many outside the Indian communities. They need to work on their image. First off people need to know they exist first. As we stand all is going to be known is that an Indian company owns the Jag brand. People will ask what company is that? Someone will say I think TATA. That will be followed by puzzled looks and dismissal. TATA in my opinion needs to hire a good PR firm.

As far as Ford is concerned the image of quality can be earned or lost. Ford has had a bit of a image problem themselves however they can turn it around with better quality vehicles.
Andaluciae
07-12-2007, 16:38
Sounds like we might be looking at the "Made in Germany" phenomenon all over again.

Although, I don't see how it will break this time.
Balderdash71964
07-12-2007, 18:30
I don't think it's an issue with 3rd world countries per se, I think it's a racism issue, pure and simple.
Aryavartha
07-12-2007, 19:06
How many Europeans and Americans know who TATA is? I would gather not very many outside the Indian communities. They need to work on their image. First off people need to know they exist first. As we stand all is going to be known is that an Indian company owns the Jag brand. People will ask what company is that? Someone will say I think TATA. That will be followed by puzzled looks and dismissal. TATA in my opinion needs to hire a good PR firm.

As far as Ford is concerned the image of quality can be earned or lost. Ford has had a bit of a image problem themselves however they can turn it around with better quality vehicles.

Well, how many Americans know "One Equity" (the other company in the mix) ?

Brand is not the issue here, Jaguar and Land Rover are their own brands. Only the ownership is changing hands. This will not dilute the brand equity by itself. When you are buying a Jaguar, you are buying a Jaguar...it is of little relevance to you if it is owned by One Equity or TATA.
Marrakech II
07-12-2007, 19:55
Well, how many Americans know "One Equity" (the other company in the mix) ?

Brand is not the issue here, Jaguar and Land Rover are their own brands. Only the ownership is changing hands. This will not dilute the brand equity by itself. When you are buying a Jaguar, you are buying a Jaguar...it is of little relevance to you if it is owned by One Equity or TATA.

TATA could change their name to "American Made" however they are still going to be known as an Indian company.
Marrakech II
07-12-2007, 19:57
I don't think it's an issue with 3rd world countries per se, I think it's a racism issue, pure and simple.

It may be national product racism per se but it is not direct people vs people racism. It is far from pure and simple.
Plotadonia
07-12-2007, 20:02
http://www.rediff.com/money/2007/dec/07tata.htm

LOL @ "unique image issues" -> "how dare dem 3rd world countries" :p

Having worked for TATA's vehicle manufacturing company (TATA Motors) for a few years, I can see why the unions support their bid. They are a very benevolent company for workers. They are also flush with funds from booming revenues from many other companies under the TATA brand...so money won't be a problem. TATA recently acquired Corus for $12 billion.

I am amused by the western opposition to such proposals from companies in India and China. There was a big ruckus in France when Mittal offered to buy Arcelor. Mittal was even based out of UK, although owned by Lakshmi Mittal - an Indian.

Times are changing. It is better if we get on with it rather than trying to oppose it.

Not just that, but India is often associated with Luxury. You could bring to mind images of Rajas living luxuriously in Hindustan palaces being served by a hundred servants, or you could bring to mind images of the Taj Mahal or Bollywood. Just because most of the people live in squalor doesn't mean it can't have a very decadent upper class and the luxury associated with it. You could even have beautiful Indian women in the commercials.
Marrakech II
07-12-2007, 20:07
Not just that, but India is often associated with Luxury. You could bring to mind images of Rajas living luxuriously in Hindustan palaces being served by a hundred servants, or you could bring to mind images of the Taj Mahal or Bollywood. Just because most of the people live in squalor doesn't mean it can't have a very decadent upper class and the luxury associated with it. You could even have beautiful Indian women in the commercials.

This isn't a condemnation of the nation of India. It is a great nation for all that you just said and many more. It is an image issue of product quality. Perception is not always an indication of the facts.
Aryavartha
07-12-2007, 21:45
TATA could change their name to "American Made" however they are still going to be known as an Indian company.

That is why a Toyota Car made here with more made in USA parts is a "Japanese car" but a GM car made with lesser made in USA parts is still American. :p

I think the deal will come through despite opposition from certain quarters. TATA as a group is looking to expand and has made big ticket acquisitions in the past including Tetley, Corus, Daewoo commercial divisions etc.

Btw, off topic, I am in Seattle now. Do you know when Snoqualmie opens for skiing ? Their website is not helpful.
Vandal-Unknown
07-12-2007, 21:50
It'd look bad for the colonial lord and ladies if they now answer the natives.
Marrakech II
08-12-2007, 01:41
It'd look bad for the colonial lord and ladies if they now answer the natives.

This also is part of the issue at hand.
Rubiconic Crossings
08-12-2007, 01:44
I admit I was still getting used to Jaguar being owned by the yanks...

MG ended up in China...so there is ...precedent...
Marrakech II
08-12-2007, 01:45
Btw, off topic, I am in Seattle now. Do you know when Snoqualmie opens for skiing ? Their website is not helpful.

They typically open when there is enough snow to cover everything and a bit more. So maybe 30 or so inches at base. It is currently 28" so I bet it is very soon. I would suggest Crystal Mountain as a good ski area. This is where I ski at when I do. Don't know your skill level but can say Crystal is intermediate and up. It is a bit out of the way but worth the trip. I also have enjoyed Mt Baker as they are typically open first. The area Mt Baker is in is one of the heaviest snow fall areas on the planet.


http://www.skicrystal.com/

http://www.mtbaker.us/
Balderdash71964
08-12-2007, 05:30
It may be national product racism per se but it is not direct people vs people racism. It is far from pure and simple.

I entirely disagree. If the purchaser was a billionaire caucasian man in charge of a conglomerate corporation who happen to live in a palace in India, there would be no problem here.
The Black Forrest
08-12-2007, 06:07
I entirely disagree. If the purchaser was a billionaire caucasian man in charge of a conglomerate corporation who happen to live in a palace in India, there would be no problem here.

No not really. Lenovo still sells here just fine.

I would say it's a mix of not knowing TATA and a thought that too much is going to India....
Marrakech II
08-12-2007, 06:17
I entirely disagree. If the purchaser was a billionaire caucasian man in charge of a conglomerate corporation who happen to live in a palace in India, there would be no problem here.

Well if his company was based in India for example it would likely they will source services and parts from India to save money. Thus changing the product and perception of the product.

I wish we could take a scientific poll of Japanese if they think a Toyota built in America and built with American parts is as good as one built in Japan with Japanese parts. I think it would be obvious how the poll would go.
New Manvir
08-12-2007, 06:20
Lenny: Wow! Homer must have got one of those robot cars!
(Car crashes in background)
Carl: Yeah, one of those AMERICAN robot cars.

Simpsons = epic lulz :p
Balderdash71964
08-12-2007, 07:05
Well if his company was based in India for example it would likely they will source services and parts from India to save money. Thus changing the product and perception of the product.

I wish we could take a scientific poll of Japanese if they think a Toyota built in America and built with American parts is as good as one built in Japan with Japanese parts. I think it would be obvious how the poll would go.


You made a false example there. That's a home-built favoritism bias example there vs the third party ownership situation we are talking about with this issue. Your example would be more comparable to this situation if you said something like: what would the Japanese think of Buicks if they found out they were owned by Russians...

The story is about what American dealers think of Jaguar image in American showrooms, so there is no home-field patriotism at stake here.

Additionally, your example is shortsighted because Toyota makes their larger vehicles in America already, and many others:

Toyota USA Manufacturing…
Alabama:
The first Toyota V8 engine outside Japan came off the line at our Alabama plant in 2003. Toyota's investment at TMMAL has doubled to nearly half a billion dollars, increasing the plant's annual capacity to 400,000 engines per year, which means more jobs, more growth and a stronger local economy.

Indiana:
Here, the time-tested Toyota Production System (TPS) meets the hands of skilled Hoosiers to create some of today's most reliable vehicles: Tundra, Sequoia and Sienna.

TMMI produces the Tundra full-size pickup, the Sequoia full-size sport utility vehicle and the Sienna minivan, with a total annual capacity of 350,000 units.

Kentucky:
This $4 billion automotive complex embodies the winning spirit and innovative thinking that creates Toyota Avalon, Camry/Camry Hybrid and Camry Solara coupe and convertible. This technically advanced 7.92 million sq. ft. manufacturing complex has infused new life into the commonwealth of Kentucky by creating over 20,000 jobs, including those at TMMK and throughout our growing community of suppliers. The result has been success and growth beyond our most ambitious expectations.

TMMK, Toyota's largest manufacturing facility outside of Japan, builds the Avalon, Camry/Camry Hybrid and Camry Solara coupe and convertible, as well as 4-cylinder and V6 engines and powertrain parts. The plant has an annual capacity of 500,000 vehicles and 500,000 engines.

Texas:
Toyota is proud of its new $1.3 billion vehicle assembly plant in San Antonio—our sixth in North America. Along with its 21 onsite suppliers, TMMTX will be among Toyota’s cleanest vehicle manufacturing plants in the world.

MMTX manufactures the Tundra full-size pickup with an annual capacity of 200,000 units.

West Virginia:
and for the first time outside Japan, the West Virginia plant is producing automatic transmissions for plants in Kentucky, Indiana and Canada.

TMMWV manufactures 4-cylinder and V6 engines, five-speed automatic transmissions and automatic transmission gears. TMMWV has an annual capacity of more than 550,000 engines and 600,000 automatic transmissions.

Subaru of Indiana (until recently, controlled by General Motors) but a controlling share was purchased by Toyota.
This is a collaborative agreement between SIA parent Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. and Toyota Motor Corporation to invest approximately $230 million to produce 100,000 Toyota Camrys annually. Camry production at SIA began in April 2007.

Mississippi plant being built now:
Our eighth vehicle assembly plant, to be located in Blue Springs near Tupelo, will produce the Highlander SUV by 2010 and employ nearly 2,000 team members.
Toyota Link (http://www.toyota.com/about/our_business/operations/manufacturing/index.html)

I show all of that to remind us that Automobile Manufacturers are already international conglomerates, national origin means next to nothing. The only reason anyone would be afraid that Jaguar will suffer more under India ownership vs. another country is racist stereotyping and thus, racism...
Marrakech II
08-12-2007, 07:26
national origin means next to nothing. The only reason anyone would be afraid that Jaguar will suffer more under India ownership vs. another country is racist stereotyping and thus, racism...


I spoke of two different thoughts in that post you quoted. They were not related to each other. The second comment was just me pondering.

National origin means a lot. Look at the recent problems that China is experiencing. Doesn't matter if Mattel is on the box what matters is that it was "Made in China." As you know if a product has a certain amount of parts that are not native to the country it is manufactured in then the label needs to reflect that. You get the hybrid tag of made in USA assembled in Mexico or some other configuration.

Let me throw this one out and want you to answer honestly. Would you dine at a Italian restuarant if you wanted authentic Italian and you found out that the owner was from Ukraine and the wait staff and cooks had not an ounce of Italian in them? Would you eat at a Japanese restuarant if it was owned by a man from the Congo and the wait staff/cooks were his cousins? You catch my theme on what people expect when buying a product? They are buying the image as well as the product. Is that racism or people just wanting something that they percieve authentic?

Those dealerships are selling a product and they do realize how people shop. There sales will drop if it is percieved that a company owns it is not authentic in their buyers minds. I think Ford buying Jag hurt the brand however being a legendary auto company softened that blow. A not so well known group out of India is going to have a tough time I believe.
Balderdash71964
08-12-2007, 07:37
I spoke of two different thoughts in that post you quoted. They were not related to each other. The second comment was just me pondering.

National origin means a lot. Look at the recent problems that China is experiencing. Doesn't matter if Mattel is on the box what matters is that it was "Made in China." As you know if a product has a certain amount of parts that are not native to the country it is manufactured in then the label needs to reflect that. You get the hybrid tag of made in USA assembled in Mexico or some other configuration.

National origin means squat. Hasbro, different toy company with China connections, just put a full page add in several US newspapers this week pointing out that NONE of their China toys has been tested positive for lead or any other bad substance. They claim this is because they have strict standards and good quality control. Seems that china can make perfectly good toys with proper oversight... Racism makes a person think all Chinese factories suck at making quality toys.

EDIT: Link (http://redding.com/news/2007/dec/07/hasbro-distances/)

Let me throw this one out and want you to answer honestly. Would you dine at a Italian restuarant if you wanted authentic Italian and you found out that the owner was from Ukraine and the wait staff and cooks had not an ounce of Italian in them? Would you eat at a Japanese restuarant if it was owned by a man from the Congo and the wait staff/cooks were his cousins? You catch my theme on what people expect when buying a product? They are buying the image as well as the product. Is that racism or people just wanting something that they percieve authentic?

Are you saying that all the students going to a culinary arts program or already with a culinary arts degree have to be from the origin of their specialty or else they can’t cook ‘authentic’ foods? Stir fry cooks have to be Asian? Pasta with tomato cooks have to be Italian? Burritos can only come from Hispanics? I think not. You can LEARN how to cook anything anyone else can cook, your ethnicity is irrelevant.

Those dealerships are selling a product and they do realize how people shop. There sales will drop if it is percieved that a company owns it that is not authentic in their buyers minds. I think Ford buying Jag hurt the brand however being a legendary auto company softened that blow. A not so well known group out of India is going to have a tough time I believe.
It's about the same thing they said when Ford bought it in the first place, they were wrong then, they are wrong now.
Marrakech II
08-12-2007, 07:49
snip....


What I will answer to that is perception of the consumer. Can any human on the planet learn how to make a good product? Of course they can. However I don't want some white guy making me Thai food. That is not racism but the want for authentic food. Could he make it just as good as someone from Thailand? Of course he can but that isn't what I want. If I want a good TV I probably will look at a Japanese brand. If I want a good car that is known for luxury I buy European (Mercedes). If I want an authentic dish from (you name it) country I will buy it only from a place I know is cooked by a owner/cook from (you name it). If I want gold I buy it in the middle east because of their quality. It is relative to peoples decisions in buying products when they have a choice.

As far as the dealerships they have a very large investment in the Jaguar product line. Not just a bit but a lot. They should have a say in how the brand goes and generally they probably do.

As far as the racism aspect I do not know if that is entirely true in this case. Money is what the issue is here. Those dealers are looking at their long term financial stakes. If they think the public is going to react negatively then it will cost them. Therefore they are bringing up this concern before the deal is done. If you want to call it racism that is your right however I don't think it is as easy as that.
Marrakech II
08-12-2007, 07:54
It's about the same thing they said when Ford bought it in the first place, they were wrong then, they are wrong now.


Really?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6744063.stm

Brand stretched

In other words, the anticipated disintegration of Ford Motor's luxury subsidiary, Premier Automotive Group (PAG) - which also includes Volvo Cars - is not a fund-raising exercise.

Rather, the sale of Jaguar and Land Rover would contribute to Ford's bottom line only in the sense that getting rid of the Big Cat would insulate Ford from its continuing losses.


Land Rover's current line-up is proving a success

Ford is believed to have invested about $10bn in Jaguar since it bought the marque in 1989 for $2.5bn.

But to no avail. Jaguar has never really brought home the bacon for Ford. Analysts predict that this year's losses could reach $550m, followed by a further $300m loss in 2008.

Moreover, rather than boosting the brand, much of Ford's investment has paid for brand-stretching exercises that have damaged the brand's upmarket image without delivering a corresponding mass-market sales boost.

Jaguar's sales in the US, its key market, have fallen from 60,000 in 2002 to 20,000 in 2006, a drop that analysts say has come about because of an excessive reliance on parts-sharing with Ford - in particular with the launch of the Jaguar X-type.

"It became obvious very quickly that it was based on a Mondeo," observes Mr Boettcher.

"People in the US were not fooled,"

Closely-linked marques
Balderdash71964
08-12-2007, 07:57
snip.

Seems to me that you should judge a chef by the quality of the food on the plate in front of you, not on the color of the skin of the cook in the kitchen. But whatever floats your boat...
Marrakech II
08-12-2007, 07:59
Seems to me that you should judge a chef by the quality of the food on the plate in front of you, not on the color of the skin of the cook in the kitchen. But whatever floats your boat...

I am a stickler for something being authentic. Has nothing to do with racism. I think many people are like that from my time of observing others behavior.
Balderdash71964
08-12-2007, 08:00
Really?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6744063.stm

Are you going to try and pretend that Jaguar wasn't already in the hole when Ford bought it? Jaguar quality and customer satisfaction has gone UP since Ford bought it, not down. Ford isn't making the big bucks they hoped they would make, like a BMW or AUDI brand, but Jaguar hasn't been doing that kind of business for decades. IF Jaguar was a quality car and good 'active' high demand brand name before Ford, then it wouldn't have been for sale when Ford bought it...
Balderdash71964
08-12-2007, 08:02
I am a stickler for something being authentic. Has nothing to do with racism. I think many people are like that from my time of observing others behavior.

'Authentic' food comes from the ingredients and cooking method used to prepare it, not the color of the skin on the hand that holds the utensils.
Vandal-Unknown
08-12-2007, 08:12
'Authentic' food comes from the ingredients and cooking method used to prepare it, not the color of the skin on the hand that holds the utensils.

All this food talk is making me hungry,... I think I'm craving Indian food prepared by a caucasian chef,... wait,... it doesn't taste quite the same.

This has nothing to do with racism, but yes, somehow, the mystique of the hands of the people who made the car... or is it now food,... does give more value to said product.

While this is highly illogical,... then again, it's human nature.
Marrakech II
08-12-2007, 08:13
'Authentic' food comes from the ingredients and cooking method used to prepare it, not the color of the skin on the hand that holds the utensils.

Lol, you are going to continue to argue the point. I am not arguing the fact that anyone can make anything if properly trained. However it is perception more then anything. The reason I am bringing up the restaurant analogy is because I have owned a few over the years. Both of them are authentic restaurants. I know from interacting with people in them what perception of a product is all about.

Jaguar is perceived as a high quality European auto. The fact that Ford now owns it has changed the perception of the brand. If you were to read the article that I have linked you will see that Ford is selling the brand because they screwed up with it. People pay a premium for quality in food and cars. If they perceive that quality diminished they will not pay the premium cost for the food or vehicle. We are not talking the KIA brand here where it doesn't really matter where the car is built. That particular vehicle is only viewed as low cost average quality. Jaguar is known for quality that is why they cost much more then a KIA or Hyundai.
Balderdash71964
08-12-2007, 08:24
Lol, you are going to continue to argue the point. I am not arguing the fact that anyone can make anything if properly trained. However it is perception more then anything. The reason I am bringing up the restaurant analogy is because I have owned a few over the years. Both of them are authentic restaurants. I know from interacting with people in them what perception of a product is all about.

As You keep with the race and food analogies, I had to keep rebutting them.

Jaguar is perceived as a high quality European auto. The fact that Ford now owns it has changed the perception of the brand. If you were to read the article that I have linked you will see that Ford is selling the brand because they screwed up with it. People pay a premium for quality in food and cars. If they perceive that quality diminished they will not pay the premium cost for the food or vehicle. We are not talking the KIA brand here where it doesn't really matter where the car is built. That particular vehicle is only viewed as low cost average quality. Jaguar is known for quality that is why they cost much more then a KIA or Hyundai.

I did read the article. I submit that Jaguar has NEVER been known as a 'quality' car, it has always been known as an expensive, fast, and prestigious car.... not the same thing as 'quality.' There has always been a question of electronics, durability, and expensive maintenance problems which have plagued the Jaguar brand name.

Jaguar was dying a slow death long before Ford bought them. Fords plan for rejuvenating the brand name is itself a new type of failure, but the 'quality' of the car has increased during the last ten years, not decreased. According to the article (and I have no reason to doubt it's accuracy and correctness) the prestige of the brand name Jaguar has decreased in the luxury market because of the types of new models Ford brought out of Jaguar.
Marrakech II
08-12-2007, 08:26
As You keep with the race and food analogies, I had to keep rebutting them.



I did read the article. I submit that Jaguar has NEVER been known as a 'quality' car, it has always been known as an expensive, fast, and prestigious car.... not the same thing as 'quality.' There has always been a question of electronics, durability, and expensive maintenance problems which have plagued the Jaguar brand name.

Jaguar was dying a slow death long before Ford bought them. Fords plan for rejuvenating the plan is itself a failure, but the 'quality' of the car has increased during the last ten years, not decreased. According to the article (and I have no reason to doubt it's accuracy and correctness) the prestige of the brand name Jaguar has decreased in the luxury market because of the types of new models Ford brought out of Jaguar.

Jaguar did have an issue with quality back in the 80's that I can remember but overall they are still a coveted brand.

As for quality increasing the past 10 years you could say that about nearly everything. Manufacturing in almost all fields is getting better.
Kyronea
08-12-2007, 10:22
Oh, come on. Just sell it to TATA already. They want it, they can afford it, and it'll help India's economy. It sounds all good to me.

(I also think luxury cars might fall from favor if we don't figure something out to prevent overly expensive fuel prices within the next few years, but that's just my opinion.)
Forsakia
08-12-2007, 12:50
'Authentic' food comes from the ingredients and cooking method used to prepare it, not the color of the skin on the hand that holds the utensils.

People want to believe that the method is the native country's own method of preparing it that the chef learnt there preferably at home or in a local restaurant. Not a method that's being taught at the local cooking college by a local who got it however many persons on with alterations to it. People like that image.