NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, not really. Just wanted to ask a question. I was debating with my dad the various pitfalls and benefits of a bit of socialism. I used Canada as an example of a country with well-working national healthcare. He says that Canadians have to come over here to get operations done. Is this true?

Well, not really. Just wanted to ask a question. I was debating with my dad the various pitfalls and benefits of a bit of socialism. I used Canada as an example of a country with well-working national healthcare. He says that Canadians have to come over here to get operations done. Is this true?Some people do that. They are a small minority, but it happens.

Well, not really. Just wanted to ask a question. I was debating with my dad the various pitfalls and benefits of a bit of socialism. I used Canada as an example of a country with well-working national healthcare. He says that Canadians have to come over here to get operations done. Is this true?

Maybe have a look at this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism). Or tell him that the US spends more per capita (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States) on health care than other western countries.

Some people do that. They are a small minority, but it happens.

How small? Very small, or closer to 40%?

The problem with socialized healthcare is that you're essentially trusting a national government... a body well known for inefficiency and marginal competence, to run healthcare better than private industry would do it.

If there's a small minority of Canadians coming across to the US to get surgeries, it's probably due to the costs involved. Ask yourself, if healthcare were cheaper, would more people do it? Yeah they would.

Even though they'd get it at home for free. This speaks volumes.

How small? Very small, or closer to 40%?
I assume it would be the the wealthiest who can pay to get quicker treatment in the American system. I'd be very surprised if working and middle class Canadians decide to go south for treatment.

How small? Very small, or closer to 40%?Very small. You need almost $10,000 on hand. Not many Canadians have $10,000 dollars just sitting around.

The problem with socialized healthcare is that you're essentially trusting a national government... a body well known for inefficiency and marginal competence, to run healthcare better than private industry would do it.

If there's a small minority of Canadians coming across to the US to get surgeries, it's probably due to the costs involved. Ask yourself, if healthcare were cheaper, would more people do it? Yeah they would.

Even though they'd get it at home for free. This speaks volumes.
As I said, I doubt it's about costs. It's more likely to be waiting times for elective nor nonessential surgery.

As I said, I doubt it's about costs. It's more likely to be waiting times for elective nor nonessential surgery.

Yeah, my dad said that too, and I'd believe him.

Of course, on the other side I know several people who have gone to Canada to get elective procedures, such as laser eye surgery, done because it's cheaper.

The problem with socialized healthcare is that you're essentially trusting a national government... a body well known for inefficiency and marginal competence, to run healthcare better than private industry would do it.

If there's a small minority of Canadians coming across to the US to get surgeries, it's probably due to the costs involved. Ask yourself, if healthcare were cheaper, would more people do it? Yeah they would.

Even though they'd get it at home for free. This speaks volumes.We pay less in taxes than you do for healthcare, and you still get charged when you show up. If you average the sum of what the government pays and what the individual pays, Americans pay double what Canadians do. I think that is the main source of waiting line differences, not ideology.

We pay less in taxes than you do for healthcare, and you still get charged when you show up. If you average the sum of what the government pays and what the individual pays, Americans pay double what Canadians do. I think that is the main source of waiting line differences, not ideology.

Nice! I have arguments. Thank you.

You have to remember, Canada is HUGE country and most of the population lives along the US border sort like a long line This is a good example (http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/site/english/maps/peopleandsociety/population/population2001/distribution2001)...so in some areas of the country if someone needs quick medical treatment it's faster for said person to get treatment in the US than to go to the nearest Canadian city which may be much farther away

Hope this helps

It makes sense. If you want your non-essential surgery NOW, then you have to go south. Since people like being healthy, they will probably want it done faster.

I live in Vancouver, B.C.

And it's already pretty much been nailed - people here go south to the US for non-essential surgery (plastic surgery, for instance) and because of the wait times. There are some private clinics set up here for money (i.e. not funded by the system) for people who want an MRI this week, instead of in a couple of months' time.

Also, if you've got the money, you can't beat US doctors and equipment. With cash in hand, you can get the best possible treatment there. We know this.

On the other hand, nobody dies or gets turned away because they don't have medical insurance here. Poor? Homeless? It doesn't matter, you still get treated the same as anybody else.

Mind you... since the US economy is doing so badly lately, so much so that our dollar surpassed it for a while there, it's much more attractive to get that nose job we've been putting off. ;)

As it's already been said, it's more about wait times than cost. We get it for free, yeah, but we get it when we get it. Some people don't have time to wait. They need procedures done ASAP and there just aren't any hospital beds to take them. I know a lot of pregnancies with complications get transferred over the boarder. I believe sometimes the government pays for these (not entirely sure) but for the most part, those with cash and impatience in high supply chose to get it done cross boarder, which I think is great. I don't think either system works well alone. It nice that at least those people on the boarder can pop back and forth if they need to.

On the other hand, nobody dies or gets turned away because they don't have medical insurance here. Poor? Homeless? It doesn't matter, you still get treated the same as anybody else.


You can be treated in the US in a public hospital for free if you are poor. Please stop spreading the myth that the homeless and poor are left to die because of being turned away at hospitals.

My friend's dad had two wait an hour after suffering a heart attack.

He says that Canadians have to come over here to get operations done. Is this true?
They don't have to. Some do, but they would have gotten service anyway.

How small? Very small, or closer to 40%?

I'd say well under 1%.

You have to remember, Canada is HUGE country and most of the population lives along the US border sort like a long line This is a good example (http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/site/english/maps/peopleandsociety/population/population2001/distribution2001)...so in some areas of the country if someone needs quick medical treatment it's faster for said person to get treatment in the US than to go to the nearest Canadian city which may be much farther away

Hope this helps

The US border is where are cities are. When people go to the USA for medical reasons it is not an emergancy, (usually, although there are some cities just beside the border where Canadians will go to the US's hopsital and vice versa) they go because of the waiting list.
Our waiting list just means that rich people don't get to jump ahead. So pretty much, our healthcare system is as good as yours if we're rich. For middleclass and down ours is better.

Johnny, generally speaking it's much better. You don't worry about how much it's going to cost. I'm the type of person who only goes to the doctor if I've broken a leg or think that I have gonhorrea or something, and I've never broken a leg.

The trouble comes with the whole 'waiting time' issue. It's true that we have issues to fix, when it comes to how long people have to wait for medical treatment. That comes with having to wait your turn in an underfunded system that treats everyone equally, regardless of financial status.

The people who can pay to get treatment faster in the US, are the same sort of people who can pay for faster treatment in Canada... the only difference being that you can't pay for faster treatment in Canada, because we find it fundamentally unfair. Of course, there's nothing stopping someone from spending their own money on private healthcare in the US.

They don't have to. Some do, but they would have gotten service anyway.



I'd say well under 1%.



The US border is where are cities are. When people go to the USA for medical reasons it is not an emergancy, (usually, although there are some cities just beside the border where Canadians will go to the US's hopsital and vice versa) they go because of the waiting list.
Our waiting list just means that rich people don't get to jump ahead. So pretty much, our healthcare system is as good as yours if we're rich. For middleclass and down ours is better.

Thank you.

Johnny, generally speaking it's much better. You don't worry about how much it's going to cost. I'm the type of person who only goes to the doctor if I've broken a leg or think that I have gonhorrea or something, and I've never broken a leg.

The trouble comes with the whole 'waiting time' issue. It's true that we have issues to fix, when it comes to how long people have to wait for medical treatment. That comes with having to wait your turn in an underfunded system that treats everyone equally, regardless of financial status.

The people who can pay to get treatment faster in the US, are the same sort of people who can pay for faster treatment in Canada... the only difference being that you can't pay for faster treatment in Canada, because we find it fundamentally unfair. Of course, there's nothing stopping someone from spending their own money on private healthcare in the US.
QFT.

I'd rather have it so everyone gets a fair medical treatment.

Of course, our healthcare system has been showing signs of strain ever since Paul Martin cut the funding by billions of dollars back in the mid 90s, when he was finance minister. So any waiting time problems stem essentially from underfunding of hospitals. The moment the Canadian population grows half a brain, they'll figure out that we're better spending the 15 or so billion surpluses we get each year on hiring doctors, nurses, and buying hospital equipment than buying tanks, helicopters, and other assorted death arsenal. But now I've slipped into the editorial side, sorry.

It should be noted, however, that the places where wait times are generally unacceptable are always in cases of non life-threatening procedures. As long as nobody's left out to die in the street for lack of proper care, I still say it's superior. I'd also be very interested to hear if the public hospital in the US where you can get treated for free have any wait times, and/or if they have the capacity to treat everyone who would need it.

You can be treated in the US in a public hospital for free if you are poor. Please stop spreading the myth that the homeless and poor are left to die because of being turned away at hospitals.

Except when they leave you to die in the emergency room in a pool of your own vomit.

If there's a small minority of Canadians coming across to the US to get surgeries, it's probably due to the costs involved.
In other words you don't have any facts and you are just guessing. We await your proof. :p

Johnny, generally speaking it's much better. You don't worry about how much it's going to cost. I'm the type of person who only goes to the doctor if I've broken a leg or think that I have gonhorrea or something, and I've never broken a leg.

The trouble comes with the whole 'waiting time' issue. It's true that we have issues to fix, when it comes to how long people have to wait for medical treatment. That comes with having to wait your turn in an underfunded system that treats everyone equally, regardless of financial status.

The people who can pay to get treatment faster in the US, are the same sort of people who can pay for faster treatment in Canada... the only difference being that you can't pay for faster treatment in Canada, because we find it fundamentally unfair. Of course, there's nothing stopping someone from spending their own money on private healthcare in the US.
I think you are suggesting that the Canadian system is somehow inferior to the US model? On the whole, I believe that our system is superior due to the universality. Wait times for some non-life threatening surgeries may be longer, but emergency services are comparable if not better.

You can be treated in the US in a public hospital for free if you are poor.
However, they often end up with a bill that they will never be able to pay, so many poor people don't get the quality/preventative care that they desperately need. In other words, they die much sooner then they should.

Please stop spreading the myth that the homeless and poor are left to die because of being turned away at hospitals.
Myth?

Charges possible in skid-row patient drop-offs in Los Angeles (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-10-26-homeless_x.htm)

LOS ANGELES — A hospital here is under criminal investigation for possibly dumping of homeless patients on skid row — a practice that the Bush administration says is widespread in the USA and "inhumane."

Los Angeles Police Capt. Andrew Smith says "there's a strong likelihood criminal charges could be filed" against Los Angeles Metropolitan Medical Center after five patients were brought by ambulance Sunday to the city's drug and crime-infested skid row section.

You can be treated in the US in a public hospital for free if you are poor. Please stop spreading the myth that the homeless and poor are left to die because of being turned away at hospitals.

Terribly sorry if I was in error.

Mind you, of the various friends and schoolmates who've gone down to the US to work, two of them in the medical field (California and Virginia, if the specific states matter), they all note that you seem to get billed or assessed for what you have done in a hospital. This is different here, and that's what I was saying. If your poor or homeless can get the costs dropped or deferred, then that's fantastic and I applaud it.

However, they often end up with a bill that they will never be able to pay, so many poor people don't get the quality/preventative care that they desperately need. In other words, they die much sooner then they should.

Yes, this was the impression I had when I posted earlier.

Yes, this was the impression I had when I posted earlier.
Well it does happen:

18,000 deaths blamed on lack of insurance (http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/healthcare/2002-05-22-insurance-deaths.htm)

WASHINGTON — More than 18,000 adults in the USA die each year because they are uninsured and can't get proper health care, researchers report in a landmark study released Tuesday.

The 193-page report, "Care Without Coverage: Too Little, Too Late," examines the plight of 30 million — one in seven — working-age Americans whose employers don't provide insurance and who don't qualify for government medical care.

About 10 million children lack insurance; elderly Americans are covered by Medicare.

It is the second in a planned series of six reports by the Institute of Medicine (IOM) examining the impact of the nation's fragmented health system. The IOM is a non-profit organization of experts that advises Congress on health issues.

Overall, the researchers say, 18,314 people die in the USA each year because they lack preventive services, a timely diagnosis or appropriate care.

However, they often end up with a bill that they will never be able to pay, so many poor people don't get the quality/preventative care that they desperately need. In other words, they die much sooner then they should.

I deal with the insurance industry on a daily basis. One of my business deals directly with health-care. I can say that those bills do not have to be paid back for the most part. There are ways to get them even taken off your "credit". There is a reason regular people pay so much outside of the greed factor. It is because we also subsidize the poor through our payments. The preventive issue I can somewhat agree however many people with insurance die because of lack of preventive care. People simply don't go to the doctor every time they need to.

Myth?

Charges possible in skid-row patient drop-offs in Los Angeles (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-10-26-homeless_x.htm)

The United States is a massive nation. Examples of bad apples are abound. On any subject you can find someone doing something wrong in this country. Does not take away from the 99% that are good examples.

The preventive issue I can somewhat agree however many people with insurance die because of lack of preventive care. People simply don't go to the doctor every time they need to. In some cases because they can't afford the co-pay.

In some cases because they can't afford the co-pay.

The average co-pay is $10-$20 or $30 for a specialist. People do not realize that the co-pays are not mandatory they are negotiable with the doctors. If someone cannot afford the co-pay for a simple office visit lets say, they can successfully in many cases ask the doctor if he will accept only the payment from the health company they are with. I understand there are exceptions to everything but there are ways to do things to soften the blow of medical expenses. It is upon the individual to seek out alternatives if they find themselves in a situation where they are lacking of financial means.

Well, not really. Just wanted to ask a question. I was debating with my dad the various pitfalls and benefits of a bit of socialism. I used Canada as an example of a country with well-working national healthcare. He says that Canadians have to come over here to get operations done. Is this true?

People who can pay alot of money sometimes go to the US to get surgeries done faster, istead of waiting in line for the public system. The Canadian system is very good at dealing with essential and time-sensetive issues fast, but elective surgeries often have pretty long waiting times. Also, Canadian hospitals will rarely send patients to the US if treatment is for some reason unavailable at that time nearby - alot of big cities are near the border so it's faster or better to send them ot the US than across the country. The patients don't pay for that, of course.

I'm no big fan of Michael Moore, but his latest movie is a pretty good argument for public healthcare. The canadian system works pretty well. Nobody dies or loses their home because they can't pay. Nobody has to defer to the opinion of a for-profit industry for decisions about their health. There aren't two sets of doctors: the ones that treat people in hospitals, and the ones that deny treatment in insurance company offices. I'm so happy I live in Canada. I trully can't imagine the stress involved in handing my healthcare decisions over to a concience-less private industry.

I deal with the insurance industry on a daily basis. One of my business deals directly with health-care. I can say that those bills do not have to be paid back for the most part. There are ways to get them even taken off your "credit". There is a reason regular people pay so much outside of the greed factor. It is because we also subsidize the poor through our payments. So insurance companies are actually running a progressive socialist policy to subsidize poor people's healthcare? I'm pretty surprised. Even if that's true, healthcare will always be more expensive when there are profits being siphoned off. No matter how progressive companies are, their bottom line is what matters. It isn't in their nature or purpose to supply healthcare money to people that can't afford premiums - or to waive fees for people that need treatment that isn't covered. A private system leaves poeple out. period.

I deal with the insurance industry on a daily basis. One of my business deals directly with health-care.
Then it would appear that you/your "business" is part of the problem. I honestly believe that as long as the US stays riveted on the for profit aspect of healthcare, then more and more Americans will be marginalized by the skyrocketing costs.

The Impact of Rising Health Care Costs (http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml)

National surveys show that the primary reason people are uninsured is the high cost of health insurance coverage (9).

Economists have found that rising health care costs correlate to drops in health insurance coverage (10).

Nearly one-quarter (23 percent) of the uninsured reported changing their way of life significantly in order to pay medical bills (10).

Almost 50 percent of the American public say they are very worried about having to pay more for their health care or health insurance, while 42 percent report they are very worried about not being able to afford health care services (11).

In a poll conducted by the Harvard School of Public Health, 43 percent of respondents named high costs as one of the two most important health care issues for government to address (12).

In a USA Today/ABC News survey, 80 percent of Americans said that they were dissatisfied (60 percent were very dissatisfied) with high national health care spending (13).

One in four Americans say their family has had a problem paying for medical care during the past year, up 7 percentage points over the past nine years. Nearly 30 percent say someone in their family has delayed medical care in the past year, a new high based on recent polling. Most say the medical condition was at least somewhat serious (13).

A recent study by Harvard University researchers found that the average out-of-pocket medical debt for those who filed for bankruptcy was $12,000. The study noted that 68 percent of those who filed for bankruptcy had health insurance. In addition, the study found that 50 percent of all bankruptcy filings were partly the result of medical expenses (14). Every 30 seconds in the United States someone files for bankruptcy in the aftermath of a serious health problem.

One half of workers in the lowest-compensation jobs and one-half of workers in mid-range-compensation jobs either had problems with medical bills in a 12-month period or were paying off accrued debt. One-quarter of workers in higher-compensated positions also reported problems with medical bills or were paying off accrued debt (15).

If one member of a family is uninsured and has an accident, a hospital stay, or a costly medical treatment, the resulting medical bills can affect the economic stability of the whole family (16).

A new survey shows that more than 25 percent said that housing problems resulted from medical debt, including the inability to make rent or mortgage payments and the development of bad credit ratings (17).

A survey of Iowa consumers found that in order to cope with rising health insurance costs, 86 percent said they had cut back on how much they could save, and 44 percent said that they have cut back on food and heating expenses (18).

Retiring elderly couples will need $200,000 in savings just to pay for the most basic medical coverage (19). Many experts believe that this figure is conservative and that $300,000 may be a more realistic number.

So insurance companies are actually running a progressive socialist policy to subsidize poor people's healthcare? I'm pretty surprised. Even if that's true, healthcare will always be more expensive when there are profits being siphoned off. No matter how progressive companies are, their bottom line is what matters. It isn't in their nature or purpose to supply healthcare money to people that can't afford premiums - or to waive fees for people that need treatment that isn't covered. A private system leaves poeple out. period.
Exactly. That is why I am very thankful for the Canadian healthcare system....despite it's warts. :)

I have family that lives in Canadia. When I got stabbed in the knee it took 3 hours and 2 different hospitals before a doc would see me (it was around 11pm when I got stabbed so maybe that had something to do with the wait). When my cousin (who lives in Canadia) got a nail through his left hand, he claims that it took 15 hours and 3 different hospitals before the nail was removed and he was sent home.

I think the problem is with people using insurance to cover everything that goes on at their local clinic. I used to be under the impression that insurance was for emergency situations that you wouldn't be able to cover yourself but now every visit is paid for through an insurance company. When people don't pay attention to what they're being charged (because they don't have to) then he who gets paid can get away with charging anything he wants with little objection. It's like people who pay for everything (even groceries and gas) with their credit card then wonder why they're 4 grand in debt to American Express.

I have family that lives in Canadia. When I got stabbed in the knee it took 3 hours and 2 different hospitals before a doc would see me (it was around 11pm when I got stabbed so maybe that had something to do with the wait). When my cousin (who lives in Canadia) got a nail through his left hand, he claims that it took 15 hours and 3 different hospitals before the nail was removed and he was sent home.
One offs don't count? Look at the whole picture.

I think the problem is with people using insurance to cover everything that goes on at their local clinic. I used to be under the impression that insurance was for emergency situations that you wouldn't be able to cover yourself but now every visit is paid for through an insurance company. When people don't pay attention to what they're being charged (because they don't have to) then he who gets paid can get away with charging anything he wants with little objection. It's like people who pay for everything (even groceries and gas) with their credit card then wonder why they're 4 grand in debt to American Express.
Under the Canada Health Act, Doctors fees are per a schedule. They don't get to "charge anything they want".

Then it would appear that you/your "business" is part of the problem. I honestly believe that as long as the US stays riveted on the for profit aspect of healthcare, then more and more Americans will be marginalized by the skyrocketing costs.

The Impact of Rising Health Care Costs (http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml)

Actually what we do is move the cost from the consumer to the government. The consumer and they are mostly retired save money by moving their plan types. Do we make a lot of money? Yes we do because of what healthcare companies pay us to get new clients. It is insane and I readily agree with you on the cost aspect. The skyrocketing costs are due to "for profit healthcare". There are plenty of other factors too but your a smart guy and can figure those ones out without me listing them.

So insurance companies are actually running a progressive socialist policy to subsidize poor people's healthcare? I'm pretty surprised. Even if that's true, healthcare will always be more expensive when there are profits being siphoned off. No matter how progressive companies are, their bottom line is what matters. It isn't in their nature or purpose to supply healthcare money to people that can't afford premiums - or to waive fees for people that need treatment that isn't covered. A private system leaves poeple out. period.


Basically what I mean is that public hospitals cannot turn away patients because of law. They are not doing this out of the kindness of their hearts. So the cost is divided among those that pay. It is the same with car insurance because not everyone has it. The money that pays under your un-insured portion of your policy doesn't magically come out of the air. It is paid by you in higher premiums and the rest of the people in your neighborhood since they rate cities and even neighborhoods.

One offs don't count? Look at the whole picture.
I understand it's just anecdotal, I'm just saying that there are cracks that people fall through.

Under the Canada Health Act, Doctors fees are per a schedule. They don't get to "charge anything they want".
A shame that people's need for treatment doesn't always mesh with that schedule. Honestly, who plans on getting sick?

Basically what I mean is that public hospitals cannot turn away patients because of law. They are not doing this out of the kindness of their hearts. So the cost is divided among those that pay. It is the same with car insurance because not everyone has it. The money that pays under your un-insured portion of your policy doesn't magically come out of the air. It is paid by you in higher premiums and the rest of the people in your neighborhood since they rate cities and even neighborhoods.My understanding was that people can't be turned away by law, but they can still be billed later. Obviously, the concept of universal medicine is based on those who have money paying more than people who don't - through a progressive tax system and publicly funded/administered healthcare delivery. The US has some publicly administered health services (for veterans, elderly people etc.) but not very many. Most of it is both privately delivered and privately funded. People with public health benefits can't even go to most hospitals, regardless of which ones are best or nearest for them because of the deals with various insurers or somehting of the sort. In germany on the other hand, healthcare is delivered by the private sector but it's all publicly funded (ie. free) and regulated federally to uniform standards.

I understand it's just anecdotal, I'm just saying that there are cracks that people fall through.I think more people fall through when they go bankrupt and die because of a ruthless profit-driven system.

A shame that people's need for treatment doesn't always mesh with that schedule. Honestly, who plans on getting sick?You misunderstand. They're paid on salary or by federally determined rates per time, or per patient. They can't just milk the system just because it's public. What a public system does mean is that people aren't given unnecessary treatments. Surgery isn't marketed like the latest model car.

You can be treated in the US in a public hospital for free if you are poor. Please stop spreading the myth that the homeless and poor are left to die because of being turned away at hospitals.

I've been turned away because I couldn't pay.

Maybe they'd have taken me if I was dying, but they'll turn you away for ill or in agonising pain.

Please stop spreading the myth that people aren't being turned away from hospitals.

Hell - the doctors refused to give my baby her immunisations because I couldn't pay cash.


The American medical system is a sick, shitty joke - unless you're one of the chosen people.

My understanding was that people can't be turned away by law, but they can still be billed later. Obviously, the concept of universal medicine is based on those who have money paying more than people who don't - through a progressive tax system and publicly funded/administered healthcare delivery. The US has some publicly administered health services (for veterans, elderly people etc.) but not very many. Most of it is both privately delivered and privately funded. People with public health benefits can't even go to most hospitals, regardless of which ones are best or nearest for them because of the deals with various insurers or somehting of the sort. In germany on the other hand, healthcare is delivered by the private sector but it's all publicly funded (ie. free) and regulated federally to uniform standards
.


Well if the person recieving the treatment cannot pay the bill in general the hospital really doesn't do to much other then send letters. You can also walk into a hospital a declare that you do not have a social security number when you tell them you have no insurance. They cannot deny you in a public hospital however the social security number is also your credit file number in the states. No social security number no damage to the credit file.

As far as choices of hospitals and doctors. The United States has by far more hospitals, clinics and probably doctors then other nations in our metro areas. When I lived in the UK and stationed in Germany I don't remember the amount of medical facilities that I have seen in the US.
If ones plan is not accepted at a particular hospital or doctors office odds are very good that there is one right down the street that will take you.

So insurance companies are actually running a progressive socialist policy to subsidize poor people's healthcare? I'm pretty surprised.

It's all lies.

I have medical bills ruining my credit score right now, that the insurance company was supposed to pay. This idea that insurance companies are, in any way, here to help - is probably what insurance reps tell themselves so they can sleep after a hard day fucking the average joe.

I've been turned away because I couldn't pay.

Maybe they'd have taken me if I was dying, but they'll turn you away for ill or in agonising pain.

Please stop spreading the myth that people aren't being turned away from hospitals.

Hell - the doctors refused to give my baby her immunisations because I couldn't pay cash.


The American medical system is a sick, shitty joke - unless you're one of the chosen people.

Did you go to an emergency room of a general hospital? Read carefully what I posted. Is the system screwed up? It needs an overhaul I will concede.

It's all lies.

I have medical bills ruining my credit score right now, that the insurance company was supposed to pay. This idea that insurance companies are, in any way, here to help - is probably what insurance reps tell themselves so they can sleep after a hard day fucking the average joe.


You have insurance to cover you and they didn't hold up their contractual obligations? Did you try and get help from the insurance commisioner of your state? It takes a bit of effort then just complaining about it if you have a problem.


I also stated in my response that hospitals were obligated to treat via the emergency room if it is a serious condition.

Edit:

Also, G n I where is it you are from?

Did you go to an emergency room of a general hospital? Read carefully what I posted. Is the system screwed up? It needs an overhaul I will concede.

I attended the ER, but, since I wasn't 'an emergency' I didn't count, apparently.

Also, G n I where is it you are from?

London, or Georgia, depending how you read the question.

My dad got some kind of food poisoning while in a New York restaurant. He passed out. When he came to, he was in a hospital. One of the nurses gave him his wallet and my father asked, "How did you get my wallet?" and she replied, "The paramedics checked if you had an insurance." I'm not kidding and this was a shocking news to us once he told us the story in Canada. Help me out here, is that the standard procedure over there or what?

The problem with socialized healthcare is that you're essentially trusting a national government... a body well known for inefficiency and marginal competence, to run healthcare better than private industry would do it.



But wouldn't a private industry be more interested in profit than the good of the patient?

But wouldn't a private industry be more interested in profit than the good of the patient?

Yes it would. The bottom line is that here in Canada, the idea is that everybody is entitled to medical care, regardless of their economic status. It is the responsibility of the government to provide this, even though the system hemorrhages money.

But that's okay, the purpose isn't to run a profit. Besides taxes, those of us who make money have to pay a monthly fee. I pay $54.00 per month because I'm one person (no dependants) and I make more than $28000.00 per year. Note that rates vary depending on which province or territory you're in.

http://www.health.gov.bc.ca/msp/infoben/premium.html

Some things shouldn't be turned over to private industry. I'm not a big fan of power or water systems going private, because while they're Crown corporations, they can run at a loss and we can still get what is really an essential service. Like medical care.

I'm from & in Britain where, as I expect most of you know, our healthcare system is also mostly tax-funded & government-run. Not having to worry about paying for each & every treatment indivdiually is nice, but the system does have the following problems _

Long waiting times are common for non-emergency treatments.
A high proportion of the funding is wasted on excessive bureacracy.
The current government has moved funds around to favour regions where their own supporters dominate, rather than purely according to need.
Politicians have been setting 'targets' for the sake of headlines, rather than on the basis of genuine clinical priorities.
There's a lack of accountability amongst management, because there are so many people involved that blame for problems (such as the poor standards of hygiene in some hospitals that have hit the news recently) can be shifted around & diluted.
There's a "bigger is better" mentality that (together with the funding distribution) means some local hospitals are threatened with closure even when though fully-equipped & up-to-date and getting patients to the locations of the proposed "super-hospitals" in emergencies would be difficult.
(The town in which I live is, by a significant factor, the largest one in this county... and is located close to the mid-point of the main belt of densely-settled population. It has a higher-than-average proportion of elderly people, with their higher-than-average medical needs, amongst its inhabitants. The authorities are seriously talking about closing its [recently re-built] hospital, very soon, and making all of the local patients go to ones much closer to the edges of the county -- or even in other counties -- instead, despite the facts that those haven't been given the levels of expansion necessary for coping with this increased load and that traffic levels on the roads involved would make getting emergency cases to them in time quite unlikely... :()

The average co-pay is $10-$20 or $30 for a specialist. People do not realize that the co-pays are not mandatory they are negotiable with the doctors. If someone cannot afford the co-pay for a simple office visit lets say, they can successfully in many cases ask the doctor if he will accept only the payment from the health company they are with. I understand there are exceptions to everything but there are ways to do things to soften the blow of medical expenses. It is upon the individual to seek out alternatives if they find themselves in a situation where they are lacking of financial means.This is news to me.
Why do insurance companies not tell people this?

I think the problem is with people using insurance to cover everything that goes on at their local clinic. I used to be under the impression that insurance was for emergency situations that you wouldn't be able to cover yourself but now every visit is paid for through an insurance company.What types of situations would someone be able to cover themselves?

My dad got some kind of food poisoning while in a New York restaurant. He passed out. When he came to, he was in a hospital. One of the nurses gave him his wallet and my father asked, "How did you get my wallet?" and she replied, "The paramedics checked if you had an insurance." I'm not kidding and this was a shocking news to us once he told us the story in Canada. Help me out here, is that the standard procedure over there or what?I'm not sure. I don't know anyone who carries their insurance card on them.
But they do ask if you have insurance when you go to the ER, yes.

London, or Georgia, depending how you read the question.

I thought you were a brit. So I can understand why your having problems adjusting to this system. The issue with vaccinations can be done at non-profit organizations out there. Try to contact your local county health dept. to find out where these can be done. When you are raised in this culture you learn where to do things for the most part. This is a difficult nation to adjust to for foreigners from anywhere. My biggest suggestion is to get a job that has benefits. With a child I am assuming there are two of you so you should be able to find a job with benefits somewhere.

This is news to me.
Why do insurance companies not tell people this?
.

They depend on the patient paying for a visit to complete the compensation to the doctor. It is not in their interest to tell patients that they have the power to negotiate with their doctors. I also want to add that any service is really negotiable from a mechanic, lawn service to a doctor you can always negotiate what you are paying.

I attended the ER, but, since I wasn't 'an emergency' I didn't count, apparently.

That honestly sounds odd. I know for a fact of instances where people go to the emergency with minor issues and get seen. Not only am I in the insurance industry my little brother is a doctor, wife was a nurse and both have hospital experience. So this doesn't sound right to me but I believe that you had this problem.

This is news to me.
Why do insurance companies not tell people this?


Because it isn't strictly true.

There are enough people needing medical care that doctors can choose who to see, effectively. I can't speak for everywhere, but here, co-pays are certainly treated as mandatory and non-negotiable.

They depend on the patient paying for a visit to complete the compensation to the doctor. It is not in their interest to tell patients that they have the power to negotiate with their doctors. I also want to add that any service is really negotiable from a mechanic, lawn service to a doctor you can always negotiate what you are paying.

In theory. In practise is a different matter. In theory, you can haggle your grocery bill in Wal-Mart, but good luck trying.

I thought you were a brit. So I can understand why your having problems adjusting to this system. The issue with vaccinations can be done at non-profit organizations out there. Try to contact your local county health dept. to find out where these can be done. When you are raised in this culture you learn where to do things for the most part. This is a difficult nation to adjust to for foreigners from anywhere. My biggest suggestion is to get a job that has benefits. With a child I am assuming there are two of you so you should be able to find a job with benefits somewhere.

She's a native, and we've three kids. I have a municipal job, so I've got some 'benefits'... but it's not that much help.

In theory. In practise is a different matter. In theory, you can haggle your grocery bill in Wal-Mart, but good luck trying.

I know people that do it all the time. I also don't pay co-pays to my regular doctors even though my plan calls for it. Wal-Mart again is different because you are talking about a large chain store that you are buying goods from. I am talking about services. Fairly large difference really.

Because it isn't strictly true.

There are enough people needing medical care that doctors can choose who to see, effectively. I can't speak for everywhere, but here, co-pays are certainly treated as mandatory and non-negotiable.

Not every doctor will do this. You have to obviously do some shopping.

He says that Canadians have to come over here to get operations done. Is this true?

Occasionally, someone will have a really rare condition that needs to be treated across the border for, say, $50,000. That's more of a population issue than a healthcare policy, however.

Not every doctor will do this. You have to obviously do some shopping.

Hee hee, doctor-shopping. :D