NationStates Jolt Archive

Seriously. A land with deep ethnic divisions, a history of world wars, a rather socialistic economy, an ungodly huge caretaker government, and taxes to kill Hillary Clinton is somehow becoming the world's largest superpower. So I set aside my conservative fiscal beliefs and ask: how? What makes Europe so great? What exactly are they doing that makes them so economically powerful, and if so, can we do it over here in the US? Take note, when I talk about Europe, I'm largely referring to Germany and Britain, and some of the other stronger economies (not France).

Having never been to Europe, what's good about them and what's bad? Poll coming.

Good: They are not America.

Bad: They are not America.

The Irish.

Ok, I'm sorry, I know my poll is lacking. But I just want to get a feel for the good and the bad in Europe.

The chocolate.

The food.

Seriously. A land with deep ethnic divisions,
And?

a history of world wars,
So, there have never been wars in America, nor has America ever involved itself in a European war?

a rather socialistic economy, an ungodly huge caretaker government, and taxes to kill Hillary Clinton is somehow becoming the world's largest superpower.
OH NOES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I mean, even if that were true. Believe it or not, not every country has the same tax policy, and there are very few that even get close to being 'socialist'. Eastern Europe, especially, has a liberal economic policy that only Ron Paul could wank over. To somehow say that all of Europe has big taxes and government is profoundly ignorant.

So I set aside my conservative fiscal beliefs and ask: how? What makes Europe so great? What exactly are they doing that makes them so economically powerful, and if so, can we do it over here in the US? Take note, when I talk about Europe, I'm largely referring to Germany and Britain, and some of the other stronger economies (not France).
France is still a major European economic power, whether you (and indeed we the UK) like it or not.

Having never been to Europe, what's good about them and what's bad? Poll coming.
Unity in Diversity sums it up. I enjoy the varied European cultures and languages, yet we have the advantages of a single market and integrated, diverse economy, which universal healthcare hasn't somehow destroyed. Funny, that.

I'm just wondering why you exclude france?

I'm just wondering why you exclude france?

Pfffffffft! Because nothing good ever comes out of France.:p

I'm just wondering why you exclude france?

Their stagnant economy and semi-annual riots exclude them. Unless there's something about them I don't know. Once again, I've never been to Europe, I don't really know how it is.

And?


So, there have never been wars in America, nor has America ever involved itself in a European war?


OH NOES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I mean, even if that were true. Believe it or not, not every country has the same tax policy, and there are very few that even get close to being 'socialist'. Eastern Europe, especially, has a liberal economic policy that only Ron Paul could wank over. To somehow say that all of Europe has big taxes and government is profoundly ignorant.


The only successful European countries have big taxes and government. Or to the best of my knowledge.

Grand Poll.

It's almost a joke. It isn't funny, but knowing someone is that clueless puts me in stitches.

Thanks, but no thanks.

First of all, France has a very strong economy. It's current performance could stand improving, but it's a large and wealthy economy nonetheless.

Secondly, you shouldn't overestimate the effects of high taxes and the welfare state. Do I think lower taxes would improve things? Certainly. But just because you pay 48% in top tax brackets doesn't mean everyone is doomed.

Thirdly, it's the usual reasons: they have a well-fed, skilled and healthy labour force which frees up entrepreneurial minds (even though they often get drowned again in red tape). They have the capital to fund new business operations, and their existing businesses have solid reputations and customer bases at home and abroad.

But don't forget:
GDP per Capita (PPP)

US - $43,223
UK - $35,486
France - $31,825
Germany - $31,390
EU - $29,900

I've never been to the States, so I don't know whether you can notice the difference in real life, but it's there.

Pfffffffft! Because nothing good ever comes out of France.:p

The French Revolution was badass

The only successful European countries have big taxes and government. Or to the best of my knowledge.
Successful in what, tells Julianus II next.

You are responding in a thread telling European countries are quite successful...

The French Revolution was badass

Nobody expects the French Revolution!!!

"Limited Economic Freedom"?

thats news to us Europeans.

i voted for all of the above :)



But don't forget:
GDP per Capita (PPP)

US - $43,223
UK - $35,486
France - $31,825
Germany - $31,390
EU - $29,900

I've never been to the States, so I don't know whether you can notice the difference in real life, but it's there.

that may be purchasing power parities, but bear in mind
a) the GINI index of the US compared to most EU nations is way up, meaning a higher GDP is less evenly distributed amongst the population. the US' numerous super-rich undoubtedly bump that figure up a bit.
b) most EU countries have some form of nationalised health care. i don't know how much health insurance and other medical expenses are for people in the US, on average, but if we assume those GDP figures to be actual (average) income, then those medical costs have to come out of that 43k, wheras for EU countries those costs are covered by taxes before net income.
of course, its been a number of years since i've studied economics so i may be very wrong (and it being 1am here doesn't help my thinking process :p)


the US does seem to be, from my own experiences there, more affluent in general. but then, living costs over there are way cheaper (more land, oil, resources, food, etc) so that probably helps boost average disposable income.

biased poll but anyway, progressive social policy would probably be the determining factor though I think a better question to ask would be whats wrong with America

Their stagnant economy and semi-annual riots exclude them. Unless there's something about them I don't know. Once again, I've never been to Europe, I don't really know how it is.

don't believe everything you hear, the French are an anomaly that is hard to understand but rest assured they have been like this for centuries and will go on doing so

edit: also Norway (http://bravenewfilms.org/blog/19529-michael-moore-cut-this-scene-from-sicko-because-no-one-would-believe-it)

Their attitudes. :)

Oh yeah, and their beliefs that a society is judged by its least fortunate members.

But personally my favourite would probably be the relative openness and friendliness to those who aren't necessarily natives. For example, where as in the southern part of the states, the government and society treats me as a minority MOST of the times, in England I felt right at home because of the way people interacted with me. :)

Then again I'm biased though. XD

Wait, Europe is great? when did this occur? Europes last war on its soil? 60 years. America's? Late 1800s.

Their attitudes. :)

Oh yeah, and their beliefs that a society is judged by its least fortunate members.

But personally my favourite would probably be the relative openness and friendliness to those who aren't necessarily natives. For example, where as in the southern part of the states, the government and society treats me as a minority MOST of the times, in England I felt right at home because of the way people interacted with me. :)

Then again I'm biased though. XD

This is why every living being in Europe hates the US of A. They play cute.

...And because they envy their freedom, of course...

I think the welfare state is the best thing about most European countries (part from the ones that don't really have it), and the slightly socialist economy is nice too, and I've always agreed with civil rights even at the small expense of political freedoms like freedom of speech (hugely overrated freedom). France is an odd country (beautiful language though, was one of my favourite subjects in high school), the rebellious nature of some of its inhabitants is something that has always been there and it makes France what it is, and it has quite a strong economy, sadly their new presidents an arse. The wealth divide is better in some countries than others but in some countries it's a wonderfully close gap, Britain and I think the really small countries are the exceptions. High taxes are not a bad thing, whether I use it or not I'd rather have a good welfare system than low taxes. My problem with Europe is that the EU as a collective force doesn't throw its weight around enough, it needs to get certain member states in line (Britain and Poland - How can you opt out of a FUNDAMENTAL Charter of Human Rights). But yea I like living in Europe it has a rich history (yes there has wars but that is what history is everywhere). The continent will start to decline probably, in economy later, but population very soon, France already has less people being born than are dying, but they are old countries that have had their time, they had their go at ruining other peoples countries it's America's turn now! If the Old European nations embrace the EU and band together they can remain a political force though.

Wait, Europe is great? when did this occur? Europes last war on its soil? 60 years. America's? Late 1800s.

since when has this been a measure of greatness?

and I love how we are comparing a country to a continent

Unity in Diversity sums it up. I enjoy the varied European cultures and languages, yet we have the advantages of a single market and integrated, diverse economy, which universal healthcare hasn't somehow destroyed. Funny, that.


That is because europe is a continent not a country, do you have the same in each country within europe?

Wait, Europe is great? when did this occur? Europes last war on its soil? 60 years. America's? Late 1800s.

Well it is statistically more probable that war will start in Europe than in North America there being more countries in Europe and all, and you're forgetting that war was also on Asian and African soil, and at the time the USA had to money to defend itself, Europe was still recovering from the first world war (also known as the most useless war ever), I think Europe came out of it quite well: a economically strong, secular, socially progressive collection of nations. Key phrase there by the way is COLLECTION of nations, that are difficult to generalise too much about.

SNIP

careful now, the E.U may start showing some solidarity against Russia in the Balkans

in which case I support the idea of towing the fucker to sub-Saharan Africa and leaving it at that

That is because europe is a continent not a country, do you have the same in each country within europe?

yes

That is because europe is a continent not a country, do you have the same in each country within europe?

European law supercedes national law and we have freedom of movement within europe but no things are not the same within europe. Every country has its own particular culture

Wait, Europe is great? when did this occur? Europes last war on its soil? 60 years. America's? Late 1800s.

Presumably excluding those in Yugoslavia. Plus, the US fights wars away from home, for example in Yugoslavia.

Last war on "Europe's soil"? Yugoslavia. Country that bombed television stations but believes in free speech? The United States.

Are we comparing like with like? Europe is not a country. It is composed of countries, including Switzerland, which if I recall correctly hasn't had a war on its soil since the mid-1800s.

If by "Europe" you mean the EU, then have there been any wars at all on "Europe's soil"? The EU didn't exist during the war which I presume you are referring to. Now if you are going to retort that doesn't matter and that the soil was still there, then you should take note of the bombing of Pearl Harbor. That was a good deal more recent than the late 1800s.

careful now, the E.U may start showing some solidarity against Russia in the Balkans

in which case I support the idea of towing the fucker to sub-Saharan Africa and leaving it at that



yes



Which "fucker"?

i voted for all of the above :)



that may be purchasing power parities, but bear in mind
a) the GINI index of the US compared to most EU nations is way up, meaning a higher GDP is less evenly distributed amongst the population. the US' numerous super-rich undoubtedly bump that figure up a bit.
b) most EU countries have some form of nationalised health care. i don't know how much health insurance and other medical expenses are for people in the US, on average, but if we assume those GDP figures to be actual (average) income, then those medical costs have to come out of that 43k, wheras for EU countries those costs are covered by taxes before net income.
of course, its been a number of years since i've studied economics so i may be very wrong (and it being 1am here doesn't help my thinking process :p)


the US does seem to be, from my own experiences there, more affluent in general. but then, living costs over there are way cheaper (more land, oil, resources, food, etc) so that probably helps boost average disposable income.

GDP does not work that way. Gross Domestic Product, the key word being product. It's not income, it's not income before taxes; it's everything. It's how much wealth each person, on average, creates in a year. GDP is a rather nebulous concept, but it's useful as a way to compare economies (to an extent) and that's why it's used.

Which "fucker"?

the Balkans ideally, though maybe if we jumble the place about a bit maybe we could tow Russia away and be done with it

The food, wine and art of France and Italy make Europe worth visiting. Other than that...Germany has good cars but I can buy them in America.

Why don't you go there and find out, Julianus II?

Europe is awesome. I would highly recommend going. I think it's more just a difference in attitudes that make it so cool than any of their government policies (which, oftentimes, are better than in the US).

The food, wine and art of France and Italy make Europe worth visiting.
Speaking of French art...

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1686532,00.html
The Death of French Culture

The days grow short. A cold wind stirs the fallen leaves, and some mornings the vineyards are daubed with frost. Yet all across France, life has begun anew: the 2007 harvest is in. And what a harvest it has been. At least 727 new novels, up from 683 for last autumn's literary rentrée. Hundreds of new music albums and dozens of new films. Blockbuster art exhibitions at all the big museums. Fresh programs of concerts, operas and plays in the elegant halls and salles that grace French cities. Autumn means many things in many countries, but in France it signals the dawn of a new cultural year.

And nobody takes culture more seriously than the French. They subsidize it generously; they cosset it with quotas and tax breaks. French media give it vast amounts of airtime and column inches. Even fashion magazines carry serious book reviews, and the Nov. 5 announcement of the Prix Goncourt — one of more than 900 French literary prizes — was front-page news across the country. (It went to Gilles Leroy's novel Alabama Song.) Every French town of any size has its annual opera or theater festival, nearly every church its weekend organ or chamber-music recital.

There is one problem. All of these mighty oaks being felled in France's cultural forest make barely a sound in the wider world. Once admired for the dominating excellence of its writers, artists and musicians, France today is a wilting power in the global cultural marketplace.

I hear this article is stirring up quite a storm over there. :D

GDP does not work that way. Gross Domestic Product, the key word being product. It's not income, it's not income before taxes; it's everything. It's how much wealth each person, on average, creates in a year. GDP is a rather nebulous concept, but it's useful as a way to compare economies (to an extent) and that's why it's used.

fair cop, but that's why i said "if we assume those GDP figures to be actual (average) income"... because they're not, but they are often used or understood as if they were.

GDP does not work that way. Gross Domestic Product, the key word being product. It's not income, it's not income before taxes; it's everything.
Though the two tend to be virtually equivalent. That's why one method of measuring GDP is about measuring income. Well, they all are on one level or another, but you know what I mean.

It's all about the idea that one man's spending is another's income. An open economy complicates things a little, but the idea stays the same.

Seriously. A land with deep ethnic divisions, a history of world wars, a rather socialistic economy, an ungodly huge caretaker government, and taxes to kill Hillary Clinton is somehow becoming the world's largest superpower. So I set aside my conservative fiscal beliefs and ask: how? What makes Europe so great? What exactly are they doing that makes them so economically powerful, and if so, can we do it over here in the US? Take note, when I talk about Europe, I'm largely referring to Germany and Britain, and some of the other stronger economies (not France).

Having never been to Europe, what's good about them and what's bad? Poll coming.

INCOMING TRANSMISSION

Transmission in American English, automatic translation enabled :

TRANSLATION :

Hi, my name is Julian and I am what you could call a standard american. I believe the market should be free and taxes inexistent but call myself a "fiscal conservative", showing my completely flawed understanding of the word conservative that I hear and say multiple times a day. I know a lot about Europe. I know that they are socialists, which is just another word for communist. They have lots of taxes and the government decides what they should do with their money. I also know about europe's history. They've had lots of wars. So how can Europe be so powerful ? It's not like they've ever been powerful at all, since we rule the world. I watch a lot of tv so I know about the different cultures in Europe and I think multiculturalism is a nice thing to think about while sitting on a bench in some European city, wearing a cap, shorts and sandals. TV also taught me that all the cultures in Europe are good, except for France. TV said the French where whimps and just live off of our money, being a pain in our ass all the time. They never did anything good.

So Europeans, please ridicule me right now.

END TRANSMISSION

My Dear Julian,

I think you don't understand much about Europe. First of all, we are not communists, and we enjoy freedom as much as you do. By the way, you might want to read about the Age of Enlightenment, the French Revolution, and writers such as John Stuart Mill, Hobbes, Montesquieu or Aristotle to understand what your political system, which you are so proud of, is and comes from. You also seem to have what we europeans call a very "americanocentrist" point of view. Maybe you should try getting more information about europe from a medium that is not american television ? Your opinion of France is what shows your ignorance and gullibility the most strikingly. You appreciate the benefits of vaccines and the pleasures of electronicmusic today because of French people. Oh and the US of A would not even exist if North America hadn't been handed on a golden platter by the French to the revolutionaries in order to fuck up the english.

With Love, from a French person who deeply despises you.

Their stagnant economy and semi-annual riots exclude them. Unless there's something about them I don't know. Once again, I've never been to Europe, I don't really know how it is.

Riots are fun!

Europe (minus Britain) is like Utopia. As an American, I feel as if I defile it with my unclean presence when I visit. I mean, driving a rented car into a random village in Wallonia and saying HAY GUYS WHERE CAN I GET A HAMBURGER just feels like walking into a stranger's parlor uninvited and pooping on the carpet.

INCOMING TRANSMISSION

Transmission in American English, automatic translation enabled :

TRANSLATION :

Hi, my name is Julian and I am what you could call a standard american. I believe the market should be free and taxes inexistent but call myself a "fiscal conservative", showing my completely flawed understanding of the word conservative that I hear and say multiple times a day. I know a lot about Europe. I know that they are socialists, which is just another word for communist. They have lots of taxes and the government decides what they should do with their money. I also know about europe's history. They've had lots of wars. So how can Europe be so powerful ? It's not like they've ever been powerful at all, since we rule the world. I watch a lot of tv so I know about the different cultures in Europe and I think multiculturalism is a nice thing to think about while sitting on a bench in some European city, wearing a cap, shorts and sandals. TV also taught me that all the cultures in Europe are good, except for France. TV said the French where whimps and just live off of our money, being a pain in our ass all the time. They never did anything good.

So Europeans, please ridicule me right now.

END TRANSMISSION

My Dear Julian,

I think you don't understand much about Europe. First of all, we are not communists, and we enjoy freedom as much as you do. By the way, you might want to read about the Age of Enlightenment, the French Revolution, and writers such as John Stuart Mill, Hobbes, Montesquieu or Aristotle to understand what your political system, which you are so proud of, is and comes from. You also seem to have what we europeans call a very "americanocentrist" point of view. Maybe you should try getting more information about europe from a medium that is not american television ? Your opinion of France is what shows your ignorance and gullibility the most strikingly. You appreciate the benefits of vaccines and the pleasures of electronicmusic today because of French people. Oh and the US of A would not even exist if North America hadn't been handed on a golden platter by the French to the revolutionaries in order to fuck up the english.

With Love, from a French person who deeply despises you.

Pure Pwnage!

Because Europe is just the best? Though its something like this:

The Irish hate the Scottish
The Scottish hate the English
The English hate the Germans
And everyone hates the French.

We're one big happy, dysfunctional family.

The French Revolution was badass

Well.. it was bad...and it was ass.. but I really don't think you can combine those two together in this case.

Food.

That's what makes Europe so great.

What the hell has the US offered to the world in term of culinary delight?

What the hell has the US offered to the world in term of culinary delight?

Everything Europe offers, but cheaper, shoddier, and greasier.
+ Apple pie.

Pwnt. Pwnt I say.

Food.

That's what makes Europe so great.

What the hell has the US offered to the world in term of culinary delight?

http://deadcityradio.org/noise/pancakes_and_sausage_on_a_stick.jpg

Europe (minus Britain) is like Utopia. As an American, I feel as if I defile it with my unclean presence when I visit. I mean, driving a rented car into a random village in Wallonia and saying HAY GUYS WHERE CAN I GET A HAMBURGER just feels like walking into a stranger's parlor uninvited and pooping on the carpet.

I had a similar experience at a McDonald's on a highway somewhere between Paris and Brussels. We stopped and pulled over, because there weren't any other places to stop for food and we had the munchies. We get in there, and it's actually subtly different from an American McDonald's in so many different ways that it was almost surreal.

Though I have since made my own what is presumably a French policy of mixing mayo and ketchup for fries.

Because Europe is just the best? Though its something like this:

The Irish hate the Scottish
The Scottish hate the English
The English hate the Germans
And everyone hates the French.

We're one big happy, dysfunctional family.

Serbia the disowned older brother I'm guessing? And Belarus is the convicted uncle?

Europe seems cool, America is cool, Japan and South Korea are way more awesome, though. Nuff said. *nod*

What makes Europe so great?
die deutsche frauleins. Enough said, baby! (I'm sure I misspelled the german words anyways.)

Their stagnant economy and semi-annual riots exclude them. Unless there's something about them I don't know. Once again, I've never been to Europe, I don't really know how it is.
Stagnant or not, the French economy is still the 7th largest in the world in absolute terms and 20th largest in per capita terms. It's not a bad place to stagnate.

European law supercedes national law and we have freedom of movement within europe but no things are not the same within europe. Every country has its own particular culture

Call to power gave me a different answer. I know EU law supercedes as you guys gave some amount to it. I was wondering if there are large parts of France that speak german, along those lines since I have never been to europe I wouldn't know.

Because Europe is just the best? Though its something like this:

The Irish hate the Scottish
The Scottish hate the English
The English hate the Germans
And everyone hates the French.

We're one big happy, dysfunctional family.

And only the british actually believe there is more than one type of people in the UK. Their all just badly dressed and fed british people to everyone else.

The British. :)

everything mentioned in the poll, plus trains and bicycles!

there's no such thing as civilization without railways.

add to that the preservation of mom and pop capitolism in an essentially socialist yet free context. one not quite as usurped as america by corporatocracy.

it's a matter of maturity perhapse. the problems america has yet to face up to, europe has long since been forced to and delt with more or less successfully. there's a lot of irony in that perhapse. the peace imposed at the end of world war two, and yet the america that contributed signifigantly to making that outcome possible has as yet failed to learn the same lessons, or so it would appear.

not that europe has found all the prefect answers either, nor has it completely resisted u.s. pressure to echo america's mistakes.

of course i'm only going by what i can see from where i am, over here in america, having never been their.

but as a fan of both railways and small scale ingenuity, i've more or less fallowed developments in transportation infrastructure and other things over the years, or attempted to, and such are my general impressions.

=^^=
.../\...

Because Europe is just the best? Though its something like this:

The Irish hate the Scottish
The Scottish hate the English
The English hate the Germans
And everyone hates the French.

We're one big happy, dysfunctional family.
And only the british actually believe there is more than one type of people in the UK. Their all just badly dressed and fed british people to everyone else.

A little bit too much of a generalisation, methinks.

Over the years I've lost count of the number of times that peoples' attitudes to me have changed once they realise that I am Scottish as opposed to English. I'm not saying that that's a nice thing for them to do, or that there's anything inherently wrong with the English, but it happens nonetheless - which would suggest that people are very much aware that there's "more than one type of people in the UK".

Also, badly fed? I'm very well fed, thank you. Badly dressed I'll give you, if by 'bad' you mean 'not conforming to any recognisable standards of fashion'. I've never really given a shit about following fashion, preferring as I do to simply wear clothes that I find comfortable, and I'm apparently (well, according to my wife) getting worse as I get older. :p

Seriously. A land with deep ethnic divisions, a history of world wars, a rather socialistic economy, an ungodly huge caretaker government, and taxes to kill Hillary Clinton is somehow becoming the world's largest superpower. So I set aside my conservative fiscal beliefs and ask: how? What makes Europe so great? What exactly are they doing that makes them so economically powerful, and if so, can we do it over here in the US? Take note, when I talk about Europe, I'm largely referring to Germany and Britain, and some of the other stronger economies (not France).

Having never been to Europe, what's good about them and what's bad? Poll coming.

Deep ethnic divisions is true, but also nice ethnic diversity. Who wants world where everybody is the same.
A history of wars and culture like every place. Just more of it.

Socialistic economy and large taxes are dependent on each country. My country (and it's in EU) has corporate income tax of 15%. What about you USA?

Seriously. A land with deep ethnic divisions,
We call that historical and cultural richness.


a history of world wars,

Which the USA and Japan gladly plunged themselves into...


a rather socialistic economy,
this opinion is k1|ignorance of european economy> + k2|ignorance of socialist economy>, with k1+k2=1, k1 and k2 both non-negative.


an ungodly huge caretaker government,

Ungodly? Laicitè = freedom of choosing between religions or non-religion. Centuries of religion wars have taught us that. ;)
Plus, it's 27 national governments + 1 supranational body. Not just one government. And every single state is free to make up its fiscal policies. Looks like high taxes to get better services for everyone is a good idea.

and taxes to kill Hillary Clinton is somehow becoming the world's largest superpower.
Largest? No: Russia, China, India are larger than us. Simply, the EU beats everyone at economy. We don't need to become a military superpower, altough we could debate that we already are: we're an economical superpower.


So I set aside my conservative fiscal beliefs and ask: how? What makes Europe so great? What exactly are they doing that makes them so economically powerful, and if so, can we do it over here in the US? Take note, when I talk about Europe, I'm largely referring to Germany and Britain, and some of the other stronger economies (not France).

LOL! What a reductive view...
(CIA factbook data follow)

GDP-purchasing power parity
1 World $ 65,960,000,000,000 2006 est.
2 European Union $ 13,080,000,000,000 2006 est.
3 United States $ 13,060,000,000,000 2006 est.
4 China $ 10,210,000,000,000 2006 est.
5 Japan $ 4,218,000,000,000 2006 est.
6 India $ 4,164,000,000,000 2006 est.
7 Germany $ 2,632,000,000,000 2006 est.
8 United Kingdom $ 1,928,000,000,000 2006 est.
9 France $ 1,902,000,000,000 2006 est.
10 Italy $ 1,756,000,000,000 2006 est.
11 Russia $ 1,746,000,000,000 2006 est.
12 Brazil $ 1,655,000,000,000 2006 est.
13 Korea, South $ 1,196,000,000,000 2006 est.
14 Canada $ 1,181,000,000,000 2006 est.
15 Mexico $ 1,149,000,000,000 2006 est.
16 Spain $ 1,109,000,000,000 2006 est.
17 Indonesia $ 948,300,000,000 2006 est.
18 Taiwan $ 681,800,000,000 2006 est.
19 Australia $ 674,600,000,000 2006 est.
20 Turkey $ 640,400,000,000 2006 est.

That is, France, with less than 60 M people, has 72% the GDP of Germany (about 90 M people). Italy, less than 60 M people again, has 67%. I wouldn't say that these are weak economies!

Exports:

1 World $ 12,030,000,000,000 2006 est.
2 European Union $ 1,330,000,000,000 2005
3 Germany $ 1,131,000,000,000 2006 est.
4 United States $ 1,023,000,000,000 2006 est.
5 China $ 969,700,000,000 2006 est.
6 Japan $ 615,800,000,000 2006 est.
7 France $ 483,100,000,000 2006 est.
8 United Kingdom $ 450,300,000,000 2006 est.
9 Italy $ 417,100,000,000 2006 est.
10 Canada $ 401,700,000,000 2006 est.
11 Netherlands $ 391,100,000,000 2006 est.
12 Korea, South $ 331,800,000,000 2006 est.
13 Hong Kong $ 317,600,000,000 2006 est.
14 Russia $ 303,900,000,000 2006 est.
15 Singapore $ 289,400,000,000 2006 est.
16 Belgium $ 283,800,000,000 2006 est.
17 Mexico $ 250,000,000,000 2006 est.
18 Taiwan $ 223,800,000,000 2006 est.
19 Spain $ 216,500,000,000 2006 est.
20 Saudi Arabia $ 207,800,000,000 2006 est.

Here, the EU data is about the extra-EU trade alone, inter-EU trade isn't considered for that feature. Look: Italy, less than 60 M people, exports little less than half of the USA (300 M people) and China (1,2 G people).

(Whoops, France exports more than the UK... again, talk about weak economies)

I think that the real key is density. Here in the EU we're crammed into a small space: this has heightened competition (including social conflicts and wars), research of new models of government, enterprise and labour. Face it, the USA haven't changed much their government system since 1776: what has happened in Europe in the last 2 centuries?

We could also talk about one of the strongest currencies of the world and its impact on the global market.

Europe is no better or worse than any other continent. It has its share of virtues and vices. However, having never been there, I don't know enough to have an overall opinion of it.

There's really not much. I mean, other than being able to do the whole multiparty thing a little better and maybe a few other things. The huge hard one some tend to get over it seems to have much more to do with certain, perceived ideological um...preconceptions people have about it. And you can never count out good old, grass is always greener type, utopianistic delusions.

European law supercedes national law and we have freedom of movement within europe but no things are not the same within europe. Every country has its own particular culture

European Union != Europe. Thus, there is no 'European law'. There are EU laws.

Europe is a continent, not a country. The EU is not analagous to the USA, and does not encompass all of Europe. European countries are not homogeneous. To say that 'Europe is great because.....' involves vast generalisations.

Seriously. A land with deep ethnic divisions, a history of world wars, a rather socialistic economy, an ungodly huge caretaker government, and taxes to kill Hillary Clinton is somehow becoming the world's largest superpower. So I set aside my conservative fiscal beliefs and ask: how? What makes Europe so great? What exactly are they doing that makes them so economically powerful, and if so, can we do it over here in the US? Take note, when I talk about Europe, I'm largely referring to Germany and Britain, and some of the other stronger economies (not France).

Having never been to Europe, what's good about them and what's bad? Poll coming.
Taxes that pay for our institutions and infrastructure that is amongst the finest in the world. The British Museum, The Louvre, Oxbridge, Turin, The NHS, The TGV, the chocolate. The worlds most professional militaries (British and French) and in France and Northern Europe the social model is something all Europeans can point too as one of our greatest successes in the late 20th century. Smaller wealth divides and greater social cohesion formed by a conesus between the political parties on some basic ideals, so that they wouldn't be constantly undoing each others work.

The integration of eastern Europe in the EU fold is an indication that we can work together, and preserve our own power and sovereignty when we try.

Also let us not forget the greatest examples of European achievement, the British railway system, the transparency and integrity of Italian parliament, the unity of the Balkan region, the health care system of Bulgaria and the caring and protective social welfare of New Labour. Yeah, we can screw up sometimes, but Europe, as a federation of sovereign powers with strong bonds between them, has every reason to be a major power.

Oh yeah, and we have nuclear warheads :D Be more politically correct OR ELSE!

The French Revolution was badass

Actually, I regard it as one of the darker episodes of European history, though I have every respect for modern France.

The way in which the European Commission manages to remain in business despite its accounts having been rejected as inadequate by the official auditors for the last thirteen years in succession? :(

Is it the cheese?

Is it the cheese?

Mmmmmm, 63 slices of American Cheese

.....

Homer, were you up all night eating cheese?
I think I'm blind.

Wait, Europe is great? when did this occur? Europes last war on its soil? 60 years. America's? Late 1800s.

I think you're forgetting the yugoslav conflicts of the 1990's. Being a genocide and all, it's something we have to try to remember

Wait, Europe is great? when did this occur? Europes last war on its soil? 60 years. America's? Late 1800s.

Actually, the last European war was - oh yes - 1999; Kosovo. It's Eastern Europe, but Europe nonetheless. :p

Actually, the last European war was - oh yes - 1999; Kosovo. It's Eastern Europe, but Europe nonetheless. :p

If we're dick measuring about wars, how many wars has Europe started? I'm gonna go right ahead and say none. Some European countries have, but Europe as a whole hasn't. Certainly can't say that about the USA.

Seriously. A land with deep ethnic divisions, a history of world wars, a rather socialistic economy, an ungodly huge caretaker government, and taxes to kill Hillary Clinton is somehow becoming the world's largest superpower. So I set aside my conservative fiscal beliefs and ask: how? What makes Europe so great? What exactly are they doing that makes them so economically powerful, and if so, can we do it over here in the US? Take note, when I talk about Europe, I'm largely referring to Germany and Britain, and some of the other stronger economies (not France).

Having never been to Europe, what's good about them and what's bad? Poll coming.

You, sir, are an idiot.

If we're dick measuring about wars, how many wars has Europe started? I'm gonna go right ahead and say none. Some European countries have, but Europe as a whole hasn't. Certainly can't say that about the USA.

Errr. World War One and Two? Both start in Europe. Or the Thirty Years War. Or the War of 1812. Or the Napoleonic War. Or, um, the Crusades?

Errr. World War One and Two? Both start in Europe. Or the Thirty Years War. Or the War of 1812. Or the Napoleonic War. Or, um, the Crusades?

Started in Europe. Not by Europe.

Started in Europe. Not by Europe.

*lol
C'mon, you knew there would be at least one who'd at least pretend not to understand ;)

*lol
C'mon, you knew there would be at least one who'd at least pretend not to understand ;)

I did. But the whole 'We haven't had a war in longer' stuff is just dick-waving pedantry. Naturally I felt like joining in.

I did. But the whole 'We haven't had a war in longer' stuff is just dick-waving pedantry. Naturally I felt like joining in.

To be fair, I'm a European, and am rather jealous of this whole US-as-warmonger thing.

I mean, come on, the US is practically Europe anyway given the first settlers. So their wars are our wars, damnit...! Besides, the US isn't the Americas, so why can't we use all the wars our old Great Powers have started? Hm? Hm?

Or are we going by Political Entity, in which case the USA waaaaay outstrips the EU which still hasn't even got it's own army sorted out. :rolleyes:

I think you're forgetting the yugoslav conflicts of the 1990's. Being a genocide and all, it's something we have to try to remember

Hah so that is the measure of a greatness is it war? Now then if thats is the case lets just get a list compiled about wars that America has been involved with not on their own soil umm!

Hah so that is the measure of a greatness is it war? Now then if thats is the case lets just get a list compiled about wars that America has been involved with not on their own soil umm!

* Mexican War
* Civil War
* War of Independence
* The many, many conflicts with the Indians....

All that in less than 300 years. You aren't so much more peaceful with one nation than Europe's many nations. People fight, that's just the way it is...

* Mexican War
* Civil War
* War of Independence
* The many, many conflicts with the Indians....

All that in less than 300 years. You aren't so much more peaceful with one nation than Europe's many nations. People fight, that's just the way it is...

Heh I see you didn't read what I said. Just what the first three words before the red mist come down?

* Mexican War
* Civil War
* War of Independence
* The many, many conflicts with the Indians....


You forgot:

Spanish-American War
Grenada 1980
Panama
Iraq 1990, Iraq 2003
American-Vietnam War
Korea
Boxer Rebellion
War of 1812
Afghanistan '01
Phillipine-American War
First and Second Barbary Wars
Bosnia, Kosovo, Somalia - technically peacekeeping ops
Utah, Mormon, Toledo, Honey, Brooks-Baxter, Red Neck and Seminole Wars

Then there's a few rebellions as well.

Mind you, you call that a list of wars? Pfft. Europe's had more wars than America's had executions.

Europe's had more wars than America's had executions.

Heh and lets not get started on Texas!

It's just a matter of the US being an upstart new nation. I mean, Europeans have been killing the fuck out of each other since, ooooh, at least the early classical period.

And the Africans, well, wow, they've been killing each other since humanity began. Ain't no-one got shit on the Africans. Best warmongers in the world, end of story.

Firstly, I couldn't care less about wars. People do fight, people have always fought, and frankly, I'd rather my country had come out as a victor than, like Colonial Africa, the loser. Secondly, I really don't know; personally, I find the history and tradition appealing, although God knows they'll be gone soon enough, and the diversity of food, culture and language.

I must confess I do prefer Europe to the USA. Better style of life, in a general sense, and far better wine.

It's just a matter of the US being an upstart new nation. I mean, Europeans have been killing the fuck out of each other since, ooooh, at least the early classical period.

And the Africans, well, wow, they've been killing each other since humanity began. Ain't no-one got shit on the Africans. Best warmongers in the world, end of story.

That's because humanity began in Africa.

I find the history and tradition appealing, although God knows they'll be gone soon enough.

History will be gone?

Very strange
(Couldn't resist)

Firstly, I couldn't care less about wars. People do fight, people have always fought, and frankly, I'd rather my country had come out as a victor than, like Colonial Africa, the loser. Secondly, I really don't know; personally, I find the history and tradition appealing, although God knows they'll be gone soon enough, and the diversity of food, culture and language.

I must confess I do prefer Europe to the USA. Better style of life, in a general sense, and far better wine.



And the cheese, don't forget the cheese.... Say I'm not coming off as a cheese freak am I?:p

History will be gone?

Very strange
(Couldn't resist)

Well one day yes, it will. The sun go boom!

History will be gone?

Very strange
(Couldn't resist)

It's the time warp. It's slowly seeping out of the jolt servers and into the real world. In a few years, the past will be the future, the future will be the present, and the present will be the past.

History will be gone?

Very strange
(Couldn't resist)

Any continuation of it, yes.

Incidentally, did anybody read Morrissey's NME interview. I knew there was a reason I love that man.:)

It's the time warp. It's slowly seeping out of the jolt servers and into the real world. In a few years, the past will be the future, the future will be the present, and the present will be the past.

I demand you turn this concept into a film

Any continuation of it, yes.

Incidentally, did anybody read Morrissey's NME interview. I knew there was a reason I love that man.:)

Good. Europe has some pretty shitty History. The Dark Ages, the Crusades, the World Wars, the French(;)).

It's just a matter of the US being an upstart new nation. I mean, Europeans have been killing the fuck out of each other since, ooooh, at least the early classical period.

Damn right. It's a long and noble tradition.

And the Africans, well, wow, they've been killing each other since humanity began. Ain't no-one got shit on the Africans. Best warmongers in the world, end of story.

They've been at it longer, but I think the Europeans took it to the peak of mass genocidal perfection, thank you very much ;)

Good. Europe has some pretty shitty History. The Dark Ages, the Crusades, the World Wars, the French(;)).

The Dark Ages are misunderstood, as are the Crusades. Without the latter, you can wave the Renaissance goodbye, and without the former, and the rise of Barbarian successor states in the west, I'd imagine Europe would have been Islamic.

Not, of course, that any knowledge of history is required to cast moral judgement upon it. Good lord no! Why bother doing any more than that which modern GCSE's do and cast anything with violence in it as a pantomime villain, and preclude any real understanding of it.

the French(;)).

Who make some rather fine cheese, damn them!

Heh I see you didn't read what I said. Just what the first three words before the red mist come down?

Hands up, yeah re-read, now understand. Too used to Americans saying how they don't have wars. Maybe Americans need more guns :p

Hands up, yeah re-read, now understand. Too used to Americans saying how they don't have wars. Maybe Americans need more guns :p

Quite understandable, and easily done.

I demand you turn this concept into a film

I demand you fund it.

Damn right. It's a long and noble tradition.



They've been at it longer, but I think the Europeans took it to the peak of mass genocidal perfection, thank you very much ;)

Pol Pot? Mao? Another poster with fuck all knowledge of world history...oh goody.

Good. Europe has some pretty shitty History. The Dark Ages, the Crusades, the World Wars, the French(;)).

Ah, it's got good times and bad times, just like any other place on the planet. Right now is a rather good time, 60 years ago was not so good, 60 years on might not be so good, but maybe 120 years on it'll be great again.
History is all about waiting until the present has turned into the past. :)

Pol Pot? Mao? Another poster with fuck all knowledge of world history...oh goody.

They've both been good at the actual job, but their PR just sucked. Which is why Hitler and his cronies are so well remembered. Can't beat good PR.

a history of world wars,

KEY word there WORLD

ok they both started in europe but it was the whole world:headbang:

Europe's peak in greatness ended with the decline of the ancient Greeks... from then on it was a roller coaster. Right now European civilisation is at its lowest point in a long long time as it is being replaced by business. Unless people get their act together soon civilisation will become a thing of the past, leaving behind only the business elite, consumers and barbarians. What a thing to live for.

Europe's peak in greatness ended with the decline of the ancient Greeks... from then on it was a roller coaster. Right now European civilisation is at its lowest point in a long long time as it is being replaced by business. Unless people get their act together soon civilisation will become a thing of the past, leaving behind only the business elite, consumers and barbarians. What a thing to live for.

Europe's peak in greatness ended with the decline of the ancient Greeks... from then on it was a roller coaster. Right now European civilisation is at its lowest point in a long long time as it is being replaced by business. Unless people get their act together soon civilisation will become a thing of the past, leaving behind only the business elite, consumers and barbarians. What a thing to live for.

*lol

Right. Because before now, Europeans never traded nor dirtied their hands in business, ever... :p

*lol

Right. Because before now, Europeans never traded nor dirtied their hands in business, ever... :p

In fact, the Greeks were well known for never EVER trading with anyone. And there's certainly no famous ancient marketplaces in Greece. Oooooooh no

In fact, the Greeks were well known for never EVER trading with anyone. And there's certainly no famous ancient marketplaces in Greece. Oooooooh no

And it certainly wasn't the trade in the Mediterranean that made the Renaissance financially possible... the Medicis in fact were paupers.

The Dark Ages are misunderstood, as are the Crusades. Without the latter, you can wave the Renaissance goodbye, and without the former, and the rise of Barbarian successor states in the west, I'd imagine Europe would have been Islamic.
I have the strangest feeling that you have former and latter mixed up, because I don't see how the Dark Ages prevented a Muslim Europe, nor how the Crusades led to the Renaissance.

Not, of course, that any knowledge of history is required to cast moral judgement upon it. Good lord no! Why bother doing any more than that which modern GCSE's do and cast anything with violence in it as a pantomime villain, and preclude any real understanding of it.

Ah, this explains how you, the masterful student of history, can predict what would have happened had certain events changed, despite that being just as impossible as predicting the future.

And it certainly wasn't the trade in the Mediterranean that made the Renaissance financially possible... the Medicis in fact were paupers.

And the Silk Road wasn't known as such because it was used by European and Asian silk traders. Nope. Just a silly name.

And the Silk Road wasn't known as such because it was used by European and Asian silk traders. Nope. Just a silly name.

Yeah I believe it was called so because of the superior building materials used on it, hence the smooth ride, hence the name!:D

If you're referring to the European Union as opposed to the European Continent then it's mainly bad.

We're becoming one Country and we're not being allowed to vote on it. We already have European laws that we didn't ask for or require. Our Federal Government is Socialist in the same way the USSR was, ie the people were all poor and had nothing and all the politicians have something at least :mad:

Pol Pot? Mao? Another poster with fuck all knowledge of world history...oh goody.

Oh FFS. It's called sarcasm. :rolleyes:

Actually, I think the Rwandans win on the Genocide front too. What was it? 800,000 in 30 days? That's killing 26,667 people a day, every day, with machetes and clubs. Now that's efficiency even the Third Reich can respect! :D

Actually, I think the Rwandans win on the Genocide front too. What was it? 800,000 in 30 days? That's killing 26,667 people a day, every day, with machetes and clubs. Now that's efficiency even the Third Reich can respect! :D

Indeed the bodycount per day is impressive, but we need to look at staffing levels... The Reich had a highly automated process, making bodycount per worker far higher than under the Rwandan system. I propose that this is a much better measure of genocidal efficiency :p

Indeed the bodycount per day is impressive, but we need to look at staffing levels... The Reich had a highly automated process, making bodycount per worker far higher than under the Rwandan system. I propose that this is a much better measure of genocidal efficiency :p

Ah, that may be so, but it also forced them to reduce their military presence in the combat zones, which in turn meant that they lost the war and a chance at an unopposed campaign of mass murder.

Possibly the best European genocidal campaign is the British one against a group of islanders in Australasia, all of whom were killed. Totally. Utterly. None left. All gone. Bye-bye. etc.

In comparison, everyone else is fail.

However!

The Africans, as in the very first modern human Africans, probably beat their direct competitors into non-existence so they not only committed the first genocide but in so doing allowed us to dominate the globe. Go Homo Sapiens! :D

Possibly the best European genocidal campaign is the British one against a group of islanders in Australasia, all of whom were killed. Totally. Utterly. None left. All gone. Bye-bye. etc.

In comparison, everyone else is fail.



Rule Brittania!

Actually, I think the Rwandans win on the Genocide front too. What was it? 800,000 in 30 days? That's killing 26,667 people a day, every day, with machetes and clubs. Now that's efficiency even the Third Reich can respect! :DToo many witnesses and/or people that know what happened.

France has a huge economy. And was a world superpower less 50 years ago. French is one of the offical languages in the U.N. They also have a good healthcare system. I think rioting is good. America needs more. Think about it. We have only had one civil war and that was mainly due to slavery. Not like most countries in the fact that they have a civil war over the class system and money. America is just declining. We have lost our golden years and now it is regressing.

France has a huge economy. And was a world superpower less 50 years ago. French is one of the offical languages in the U.N. They also have a good healthcare system. I think rioting is good. America needs more. Think about it. We have only had one civil war and that was mainly due to slavery. Not like most countries in the fact that they have a civil war over the class system and money. America is just declining. We have lost our golden years and now it is regressing.The rioting is decidedly one of the things that's NOT admirable about France.

Too many witnesses and/or people that know what happened.

Pfft, and the same goes for every genocide! I still maintain that the Original Genocide was African which gives the Africans 1st Place in the Continental Killing Tables, with Europe and and Asia in =3rd.

The rioting is decidedly one of the things that's NOT admirable about France.

Ahh but the cheese is!

Ahh but the cheese is!I'd disagree, but that's just me. Taste is subjective.

The rioting is decidedly one of the things that's NOT admirable about France.

Actually, if it was less directed at itself and more at the apparatus of the state...

The rioting is decidedly one of the things that's NOT admirable about France.

Dude, I do not mean to say this badly but if you have ever been to Plano, Texas, rioting needs to happen. Believe me. A war in the streets with the masses going insane. It would be at least fun to watch on T.V. almost happened with Katrina. Plus the U.S. gov. was trying to take away people's guns during the flooding.

Dude, I do not mean to say this badly but if you have ever been to Plano, Texas, rioting needs to happen. Believe me. A war in the streets with the masses going insane. It would be at least fun to watch on T.V. almost happened with Katrina. Plus the U.S. gov. was trying to take away people's guns during the flooding.I don't consider human suffering and wanton violence quality entertainment.

The rioting is decidedly one of the things that's NOT admirable about France.

Any time that violence starts to become accepted as a normal way to achieve political change (as opposed to a last resort), be worried about a loss of freedom. Cross-reference the Roman Republic in the second century BC.

I don't consider human suffering and wanton violence quality entertainment.

Oh, when it's done properly, it is.

Of course, you mustn't forget that the revolution will not be televised... it'll be webcast instead.

I have the strangest feeling that you have former and latter mixed up, because I don't see how the Dark Ages prevented a Muslim Europe, nor how the Crusades led to the Renaissance.

The Crusades did help spark the Renaissance. It was in the Middle East that the Europeans rediscovered most of the Ancients (Plato, Aristotle, etc.) which they had lost and the Muslims preserved.

As for the "barbarian states" in the Dark Ages (another misnomer, as we are slowing discovering), the argument could be made that they stopped Islam's advance at Tours in the 8th century and again at Vienna in the 14th. Although it seems just as possible that someone else could have done it without too much trouble.

Pfffffffft! Because nothing good ever comes out of France.:p

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/rschwart/hist255/kat_anna/napoleon1%20copy.jpg

http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/21/67/23456721.jpg

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http://images.barewalls.com/preview/e3/e3c9191p.jpg

http://dailydaily.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/risk.PNG

http://i.treehugger.com/files/th_images/2nd-Red-Balloon.jpg

http://www.3brothersbakery.com/prodimages/04lp.jpg

Possibly the best European genocidal campaign is the British one against a group of islanders in Australasia, all of whom were killed. Totally. Utterly. None left. All gone. Bye-bye. etc.

In comparison, everyone else is fail.

Just which islands' "islanders" are you talking about? And are you accusing the British government, or just [possibly uncontrolled] British colonists?

If we're talking about Australasia, what about one Maori group's almost complete destruction of their distant relatives the Moriori people in the Chatham Islands (http://www.newzealandnz.co.nz/chatham-islands/)? That was rather thorough (and, according to one account that I've read, included the "efficient" detail that the attackers used their victims as supplementary rations!) too...

What makes Europe so great?
the same thing that makes America so Great. the people!

Just which islands' "islanders" are you talking about? And are you accusing the British government, or just [possibly uncontrolled] British colonists?

The government and the colonists. There were hunting parties that looked for people to kill. As for the name of the people, I am ashamed to say that I cannot remember or find it (so far)... but that this is a true fact!

EDIT:

The Maori may have almost completely destroyed the Moriori, but they didn't destroy them to the last person the way the British did to this other lot. So they lose the Genocide Contest. Sorry!

The government and the colonists. There were hunting parties that looked for people to kill. As for the name of the people, I am ashamed to say that I cannot remember or find it (so far)... but that this is a true fact!

*Thinks*

I suppose it might have been Tasmania, which is the only island in that general region that I can remember seeing described as having basically lost its native population (although, due to interbreeding, some people of partly native blood do still live there...) during the Colonial period.
Did you know that, according to some archaeologists &/or anthropologists, those native Tasmanians weren't very closely related to the 'Aborigines' of mainland Australia? Or that there's evidence they'd formerly lived on the mainland too, but had vanished from there -- presumably due to pressure from those Aborigines -- quite a while before the first Europeans arrived in the region?

The Maori may have almost completely destroyed the Moriori, but they didn't destroy them to the last person the way the British did to this other lot. So they lose the Genocide Contest. Sorry!
But they ate at least some of their victims! Isn't that worth extra points?

KEY word there WORLD

ok they both started in europe but it was the whole world:headbang:

Or did the second one really start in Asia...hmmm

Snipped

Your conservatism made me cry :(

Because Europe is just the best? Though its something like this:

The Irish hate the Scottish
The Scottish hate the English
The English hate the Germans
And everyone hates the French.

We're one big happy, dysfunctional family.

"And everyone hates the French." I think not.

"And everyone hates the French." I think not.

It's a loving hate.

Because Europe is just the best? Though its something like this:

The Irish hate the Scottish
The Scottish hate the English
The English hate the Germans
And everyone hates the French.

We're one big happy, dysfunctional family.

Shouldn't that be :

The Irish hate the English,
The Scottish hate the English,
The French hate the English,
etc,
:p
I kid

Seriously.
That's a somewhat massive question, let's be honest.
A land with deep ethnic divisions
Not really... yeah, fine, we had a pretty nasty little war in the Balkans, but that was caused due to the break-up of Yugoslavia and the resultings problems, not due to to any real hatred between ethnicities - what happened was that each side blamed the other and proceeded to try and annihilate them completely.

So, yeah, like any other civil war.
a history of world wars
All both of them, yes.
a rather socialistic economy
Aye, we like to have everyone being able to live to a fairly decent degree. Don't see why that's a particularly large problem of any kind. More people with money to spend on consumer goods means that everyone contributes to the larger economy, and it keeps a lid on the concentration of wealth, to an extent, which isn't of any benefit to the economy at all. You don't want a few people being able to buy anything the like, because they're only going to want a couple of copies of a film, game etc.

What you want is pretty much the entirety of the general public being able to invest a bit in consumer goods, in addition to being able to buy the basic necessities of life.
an ungodly huge caretaker government
Not really.
and taxes to kill Hillary Clinton
In some of the states, not in others.
is somehow becoming the world's largest superpower.
What are you talking about "is somehow becoming"?

Europe has practically always and will pretty much always be the largest superpower in the world, due to the fact that basically all of it can be used for farming, it's very, very rich in many key resources such as coal, oil, gas and iron, has always, and will always pride itself on the quality of its wares, if not the quantity in which they are produced, and the wars which result in Europe usually end pretty quickly and decisively.
What exactly are they doing that makes them so economically powerful, and if so, can we do it over here in the US?
Somehow change your climate and landscape, entire belief system and culture. Best of luck with that one.

What the US has that Europe doesn't is basically that the US makes a few people very, very rich, and so long as those people keep working hard, the economy will usually grow pretty quickly. In Europe, it's more about the collective effort than those of a select few, although those at the top have their place, it must be said.
Take note, when I talk about Europe, I'm largely referring to Germany and Britain, and some of the other stronger economies (not France).
Err... France certainly is one of the stronger economies, and its triumphs and failings are pretty much the same as those of anywhere else in Europe. And trying to portray Germany as a particularly socialist nation fails at the moment, they don't even have a minimum wage. The advantage that Germany has is that we completely annihilated it in World War 2, and then pumped money into it from 1945 to 1989, so it's pretty Brand Spanking New, outside of some of East Germany, which isn't quite so nice yet.
Having never been to Europe, what's good about them and what's bad? Poll coming.
It has a great culture and fairly stable rule is the main thing. Our republicans might complain that the monarchy is doing this that and the other, but on the other hand, what a monarchy does do is to temper the government slightly.

"And everyone hates the French." I think not.
You think wrong ;)

That said, it's more in the form of casual anti-French comments at the pub rather than "let's bomb them, their baguettes infuriate and confuse us, and stripey tops are for losers".

Seriously. A land with deep ethnic divisions, a history of world wars, a rather socialistic economy, an ungodly huge caretaker government, and taxes to kill Hillary Clinton is somehow becoming the world's largest superpower. So I set aside my conservative fiscal beliefs and ask: how? What makes Europe so great? What exactly are they doing that makes them so economically powerful, and if so, can we do it over here in the US? Take note, when I talk about Europe, I'm largely referring to Germany and Britain, and some of the other stronger economies (not France).

Having never been to Europe, what's good about them and what's bad? Poll coming.

That several countries in Europe has existed at least 600 - 800 years before the US gained independence, including my own :cool: That we have historical buildings several hundreds even 1000 of years older than the USA, that our history is much richer and longer than that of the US and that we care more for the poor and unfortunate in our countries here in Europe than you americans do in the US :D

Also Europeans CREATED the US :D

Also Europeans CREATED the US :D
Yep... so it's all the Europeans FAULT! :p

I had a similar experience at a McDonald's on a highway somewhere between Paris and Brussels. We stopped and pulled over, because there weren't any other places to stop for food and we had the munchies. We get in there, and it's actually subtly different from an American McDonald's in so many different ways that it was almost surreal.

Though I have since made my own what is presumably a French policy of mixing mayo and ketchup for fries.

Wait till you visit Holland next time and ask at a local snackbar and ask for a patatje oorlog (http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/9306/loltu7.jpg). Yes, that's ketchup (or curry sauce depends a bit which snackbar you go to), mayonaise and onions on top of French Fries...

It tastes a lot better and it looks I can tell you :D

Yep... so it's all the Europeans FAULT! :p

Damn us! :(

The rioting is decidedly one of the things that's NOT admirable about France.

I would say otherwise; it's decidedly more admirable than, say, the British thing of not wanting to complain too much even when the government is fucking up left right and centre and screwing over people.

Rioting is a much better way of showing disaffection with a government than sitting and grumbling over a cup of tea.

You think wrong ;)

That said, it's more in the form of casual anti-French comments at the pub rather than "let's bomb them, their baguettes infuriate and confuse us, and stripey tops are for losers".

That's ok. Sure we do it with English comments. :)

The Dark Ages are misunderstood
Not really. There wasn't much to them, they were basically the stopgap between the downfall of Rome and the Norman conquest of England, which is what brought back 'real' civilisation.

There was still a fair bit of international trade going on, albeit between kings rather than normal merchants, the monks could still write, as could the Jews, and things generally punted along in their merry way.
as are the Crusades.
Err... Catholics go on a raiding spree on Orthodox and Muslim countries, fail horribly and pointlessly most of them time. Woo. Spiffing.
Without the latter, you can wave the Renaissance goodbye
Killing Muslims. The best way to bring over Islamic developments in art and science. Yes. Not like it was actually rich Turks going on boat trips to Italy to do business, oh no.
and without the former, and the rise of Barbarian successor states in the west, I'd imagine Europe would have been Islamic.
Err... are you sure about that?

Christianity was very well entrenched in the military and economic elite at that time, and since they were the only people actually doing anything much, I don't think that the Moors would have ever gotten past the Pyrenees, regardless of whether relatively small kingdoms were in control or some kind of European super-state was at the top.
Not, of course, that any knowledge of history is required to cast moral judgement upon it. Good lord no!
Yes, quite.
Why bother doing any more than that which modern GCSE's do and cast anything with violence in it as a pantomime villain, and preclude any real understanding of it.
... Yes, Chris. This is exactly what GCSEs are like...
Europe's peak in greatness ended with the decline of the ancient Greeks...
Because all of Europe was great in those days, and there was nothing wrong, ever, in ancient Greece??
from then on it was a roller coaster.
Err... yes, this is history for you.
Right now European civilisation is at its lowest point in a long long time as it is being replaced by business.
Not really. I'd say that things were worse in the 1980s than they are now. The reason that businesses are getting increasing in control is because we're in a period of financial stability. That's not going to last, and in the next few years we'll probably see a worldwide crash.
Unless people get their act together soon civilisation will become a thing of the past, leaving behind only the business elite, consumers and barbarians. What a thing to live for.
Err, no, don't be ridiculous.

That's ok. Sure we do it with English comments. :)
I'm sure you do, I quite like it myself, makes Europe seem more... lively, I suppose.

Easy, that's me :D

Yep... so it's all the Europeans FAULT! :p


Yep, life sucks don't it :D

Easy, that's me :D

says a person from the Netherlands :D that's a good joke :D

This whole website and forum is in English is it not?
What I mean is - America, Canada and all of the western world is stemmed from Europe - Without the UK, Spain, France, The Netherlands and Portugal most of the trade routes and the western and 1st world countries would not exist culturally or economically! (esp the UK and Spain). OK North America - British, Spanish and French. South America - Spanish, Portuguese. Trade Routes to Asia - Japan - Portugal and The Netherlands gave a lot of tech etc to Japan: India - British, some Portuguese.
Although Britain and USa have completely different cultures, They come from the EUROPEAN influences.


From a 16yr old Brit (Europe is the best btw)

:pBecause Europe is just the best? Though its something like this:

The Irish hate theEnglish
The Scottish hate the English
The English hate the Germans
And everyone hates the French.

We're one big happy, dysfunctional family.

I think the above is possible more accurate. We tend to get on o.k with the scottish, mostly cause of our dislike of the english :p

says a person from the Netherlands :D that's a good joke :D

Yup: As a finishing touch, God created the Dutch.

It rhymes, so it must be true :D

PS. Where are you from?

Take note, when I talk about Europe, I'm largely referring to Germany and Britain, and some of the other stronger economies (not France).
So you're not really asking about Europe then, only about two-three countries out of.. Well, there's 27 countries in the EU alone, and there's even more on the European continent.

So... You forgot Poland. ;)

I suppose it might have been Tasmania, which is the only island in that general region that I can remember seeing described as having basically lost its native population (although, due to interbreeding, some people of partly native blood do still live there...) during the Colonial period.
Did you know that, according to some archaeologists &/or anthropologists, those native Tasmanians weren't very closely related to the 'Aborigines' of mainland Australia? Or that there's evidence they'd formerly lived on the mainland too, but had vanished from there -- presumably due to pressure from those Aborigines -- quite a while before the first Europeans arrived in the region?


So-called "pure-blood" Tasmanian Aboriginals were indeed driven to extinction by settler violence. Tasmanians were Aboriginals who had evolved seperately from the mainland for thousands of years. They were not "driven off" the mainland by other Aboriginals, by the way: they settled Tasmania at the time when Aboriginals were spreading throughout the continent, and before Tasmania became an island.

And having just checked, the wiki of course has an article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasmanian_Aborigines) about Tasmanian Aboriginals.

None of the above: it's the food.

Brezen and weisswurst ftw

Yup: As a finishing touch, God created the Dutch.

It rhymes, so it must be true :D

PS. Where are you from?

Denmark :D

So-called "pure-blood" Tasmanian Aboriginals were indeed driven to extinction by settler violence.
Scholarly opinions differ about this. Some say violence was the main cause of the extinction, others blame disease (and point out that the main stories of massacres were originally written by a newspaperman who had a grudge against the island's governor due to an earlier court case).
Tasmanians were Aboriginals who had evolved seperately from the mainland for thousands of years. They were not "driven off" the mainland by other Aboriginals, by the way: they settled Tasmania at the time when Aboriginals were spreading throughout the continent, and before Tasmania became an island.
Scholarly opinions differ about this, too: Some say the the Tasmanians were just an isolated branch of the Australians, as you suggest, but others -- as I said -- believe that (on the basis of cultural & skeletal differences) they had already been a separate people while some of them were still living on the Australian mainland. As I haven't studied the arguments in great detail, and obviously wasn't around at the time, I won't argue for or against either theory now...

:p

I think the above is possible more accurate. We tend to get on o.k with the scottish, mostly cause of our dislike of the english :p

And he forgot the Welsh, who also hate the English, and the rest of the UK who all hate Londoners!

Yup: As a finishing touch, God created the Dutch.

It rhymes, so it must be true :D

PS. Where are you from?

Which God, and does it scan as well in old Norse?

None of the above: it's the food.

Brezen and weisswurst ftwYou misspelled "Brez'n und Weischwurscht"...

Denmark :D

Nice country, nice girls too there :)

Oh, and Gammel Dansk :D

Which God

Whatever you prefer, I'm not picky :p

and does it scan as well in old Norse?

Should I care about old Norse?

I have discovered another reason why Europe rocks.
TECHNOVIKING (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1nzEFMjkI4)

Nice country, nice girls too there :)

Oh, and Gammel Dansk :D

yes nice girls :D and Gammel Dansk in vast quantities :D

never been to the Netherlands though :p but I hear its a very nice place :D

yes nice girls :D and Gammel Dansk in vast quantities :D

never been to the Netherlands though :p but I hear its a very nice place :D

Communist propaganda!

You misspelled "Brez'n und Weischwurscht"...Oh please, don't correct people with wrong things, Mr. All Those Southern Dialects Turn Every "s" Into "sch". :rolleyes: :p

yes nice girls :D and Gammel Dansk in vast quantities :D

never been to the Netherlands though :p but I hear its a very nice place :D

It is, Sterling.dk has cheap flights to Amsterdam ;) So just pick a date and visit The Netherlands :p (preferably also go outside of Amsterdam to far away places like Maastricht or Groningen to really get a feel :))

I wonder if the US has a trouble achieving great things because it assumes that it is already great and needs no further improvement. It seems that people in the US are taught from birth that their country is the best; does this make them complacent?

EDIT:

I have discovered another reason why Europe rocks.
TECHNOVIKING (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1nzEFMjkI4)

THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8oppqBA3qI) is my preferred choice of viking music. :)