NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7128172.stm
One-fifth of Canadians immigrants

Twenty percent of people living in Canada are foreign-born, a proportion second in the world only to Australia, new census data reveal.

So, when I now ask why Canada and Australia aren't falling apart in civil war, and why European countries can't let in many more immigrants, I'd presumably get the answer that there is somehow a difference between 21st century Europe and 21st century Canada or Australia.

What is that difference? Both Canada and Australia started off as European colonies. Who got in was heavily regulated. In Australia's case that continued for decades after independence - so it is not that these countries are "historically multicultural" or something esoteric like that. So why is it that Canadians and Australians can apparently be quite happy with lots of immigrants, but in Germany less than half the percentage is considered some sort of crisis by many people?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7128172.stm


but in Germany less than half the percentage is considered some sort of crisis by many people?

It is tough keeping the master race pure I am sure.

In Germany's case, at least, I'll cut them a bit of slack taking note that they are still recovering from the re-unification where the Western side had to basically pick up the Eastern portion and economically rebuild the shambles that the Soviets had left of it. A country wrestling with it's own severe internal economic issues is rarely interested in importing more.

Indeed, much of Western Europe really stepped up to the plate to try and help the former Soviet block countries drag themselves up into the 21st century. They recognized that there was security to be had bringing those countries into the western fold lest they remain ripe for further Russian influence - which would likely have been very possible as Russia also recovers it's strength these days too.

Beyond that, they just don't have quite the same mindset as countries of immigrants that the New World represents. Canada and the US are made up predominantly of waves of various immigrants - each of whom had their periods of trials and tribulations. But the countries have the cultural experience in absorbing large influxes with eventual success, and so perhaps don't view it as quite the novel risk that some European countries do.

There is a civil war. Just nobody knows about it, not even the participants. We is like Nazis and CUP, yo.

Filthy-blooded Canadians. *spits into the harsh canadian wind*

Canada is clearly hugging too many trees to spend time patrolling their borders like U.S. self-proclaimed "Minutemen." (That's a yea! for hugging trees, f.y.i.)

Another fifth of Canadians actually speak a language different from the one of the majority.

I daresay having had to deal with the reality of a significant francophone minority got the rest of English Canada used to the idea that a country's population doesn't have to be homogeneous at all costs.

And of course, us French Canadians, being a minority, really aren't hypocritical enough to go all bonkers over a couple of dark or yellow-skinned citizens. No matter what the Ontario press seems intent on saying on the matter.

They're all immigrants. Damn land-bridgers..

Ppopulation density maybe?

Canada (the US can be included too) ca deal with immigration because it has a history of immigration. European nations don't have a history of immigration near what Canada has.

oh, and lulz canada.

You know all those Americans who keep going, 'fuck this, I'm moving to Canada!'?

Yep.

It is tough keeping the master race pure I am sure.

I do hope that was in jest.

As for the OP, it's bascially rooted in, well... what Marrakech was perhaps alluding to. European countries have a long history of national identity, spanning hundreds of years. They have a culture attatched to that identity that makes them part of their country. A Frenchman is a Frenchman, and an Arab is not Frenchmen, or something to that effect (I picked France at random, probably because of the riots). These national identities have clashed quite frequently and as a result are highly xenophobic. That's perhaps a too harsh a word, but you get the idea.

That's my take on it, at least.

I do hope that was in jest.

As for the OP, it's bascially rooted in, well... what Marrakech was perhaps alluding to. European countries have a long history of national identity, spanning hundreds of years. They have a culture attatched to that identity that makes them part of their country. A Frenchman is a Frenchman, and an Arab is not Frenchmen, or something to that effect (I picked France at random, probably because of the riots). These national identities have clashed quite frequently and as a result are highly xenophobic. That's perhaps a too harsh a word, but you get the idea.

That's my take on it, at least.

That sounds correct. I have difficulties envisioning my Chinese friend as an Englishman ('cause he was born in London)

The Canadians aren't exactly thrilled, though. I've heard talk they want to limit their immigration. Mainly because not enough people speak the language(s)

Maybe, just maybe it has something to do with the fact that most of the population in those countries are descended from colonials?
Which means that the very history and people of these countries come from other places than the land they now live on, whereas most of the cultures of Europe have been there for hundreds and thousands of years, they didn't come from anywhere else.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7128172.stm


So, when I now ask why Canada and Australia aren't falling apart in civil war, and why European countries can't let in many more immigrants, I'd presumably get the answer that there is somehow a difference between 21st century Europe and 21st century Canada or Australia.

What is that difference? Both Canada and Australia started off as European colonies. Who got in was heavily regulated. In Australia's case that continued for decades after independence - so it is not that these countries are "historically multicultural" or something esoteric like that. So why is it that Canadians and Australians can apparently be quite happy with lots of immigrants, but in Germany less than half the percentage is considered some sort of crisis by many people?

Europeans have a rich history of a cultural identity, one that would be severely and irreversibly altered if they allowed mass immigration. Canada and Australia, though great nations, do not have a rich history, or at least, not as rich as Europe. Also, Europe has to be worried about over-crowding, whereas Canada is mostly unpopulated, like Australia too.

Bah, Canada isn't a real country.

Population density:

EU: 114/km².
Canada: 3.2/km².

I doubt the UK could cope with another 12,000,000 people, although I don't think we suddenly need to put an electric fence in the English Channel either.

I think the psychological root is much the same as that of extreme right-wing youths in Eastern Germany. Eastern Germany has, especially in rural areas and small towns, next to no foreign nationals. And yet those are the areas with the most severe problems with extreme-right youth. It may have to do with the fact that the fear of abstracts in humans can be much greater than the fear of a real person living next door.
And politicians in Europe like to use this fear to promote themselves, adding oil to the flames.

Population density:

EU: 114/km².
Canada: 3.2/km².

I doubt the UK could cope with another 12,000,000 people, although I don't think we suddenly need to put an electric fence in the English Channel either.

I agree to some extend, but please keep in mind that most of Canadas landmass is simply uninhabitable. Well, until global warming kicks in seriously, anyway.

Economics definitely plays a role. Canada and Australia simply have higher-growth economies that offer plenty of jobs at all levels of the spectrum, allowing these immigrants to better establish themselves and pursue real opportunities. Contrast this to, say, France, where unemployment for new immigrants is cripplingly high and the system doesn't really provide opportunity for these new arrivals to really start the process of adapting to their new culture.

The end result is that rather than assimilating, the immigrants and natives clash and fail to produce the kind of mixed-culture(not multicultural...there's a bit of a difference) society necessary for this kind of growth.

I agree to some extend, but please keep in mind that most of Canadas landmass is simply uninhabitable.
That argument doesn't quite hold:
Sweden: 20/km²
Finland: 15.5/km²
Russia: 8.4/km²
Canada: 3.2/km²

So, while we can't expect 100/km² in Canada, we can certainly assume, that a lot more than now would be possible - ergo: Canada still has a very weak population density.

That argument doesn't quite hold:
Sweden: 20/km²
Finland: 15.5/km²
Russia: 8.4/km²
Canada: 3.2/km²

So, while we can't expect 100/km² in Canada, we can certainly assume, that a lot more than now would be possible - ergo: Canada still has a very weak population density.

Not saying it doesn't, all I'm saying is you can't really compare the population density taken over the entire landmass and compare it with that of a European country. Canada would still have less population density if you only compared the -what? - 10% of inhabitable area with any European country, but I assume it would be a less crass difference.

A Frenchman is a Frenchman, and an Arab is not Frenchmen

Eh, no. Well, some people react that way, but it's far from being the common viewpoint. I know French people of Morrocan, Vietnamese, Tunisian, Italian and other backgrounds. They're French. I -and everyone else I know, themselves included- have always thought of them as such.

So, while we can't expect 100/km² in Canada, we can certainly assume, that a lot more than now would be possible - ergo: Canada still has a very weak population density.
Most of Canada's population lives in the big cities. The same is true even more so in Australia.

Population density in those cities isn't that much lower than it would be in cities anywhere else (although Europeans are more likely to live in apartment buildings than suburbia, but I wouldn't think that makes a difference).

I agree to some extend, but please keep in mind that most of Canadas landmass is simply uninhabitable. Well, until global warming kicks in seriously, anyway.
Of course, I know its not that simple.

Oh well... bang goes any smidgen of hope that some sort of anschluss of Canada and Australia into the UK would ever happen. Actually in the next 50 years or so, there is a good chance that bang will go the UK itself, with all these Briton's bloody running around pretending to be Celts... You don't see northerners running round pretending to be Danes just because of the Dane law do you?

The fact is a proud history is not enough to keep a nation together, pride needs to be rooted in the present or it cause's nothing but resentment and a longing for greater days. Ether that or the population will move on to something else like for example, in the so called Celtic nations their identity is now being based on hating the English! And correct me if I’m wrong, but I hear the Australian’s and New Zealander’s (especially with the Maury section of the population and all that) currently hold disliking towards us as well. I'm not so sure about Canadian Brits but it appears they are either forgetting or loosing pride in their roots, as well… And the South African Brits well, they're a minority (2.6 percent are white, even less than this will be of British origin). So in terms of regaining landmass and population as a root to regaining some status I would say the UK was definitely buggerd (and has been, for quite some time).

Maybe a Max Barry marketing world would shut us up and put us all out of our misery, eh?

(although Europeans are more likely to live in apartment buildings than suburbia, but I wouldn't think that makes a difference).

For most of what I've seen of it, Europeans generally live in houses rather than apartments. I'm not sure about Germany, though.

A Frenchman is a Frenchman, and an Arab is not Frenchmen

And a No True Scotsman is a No True Scotsman ;)

For most of what I've seen of it, Europeans generally live in houses rather than apartments. I'm not sure about Germany, though.

In England and Ireland, it's mostly houses. In Germany, Austria, Switzerland, France, Italy and Spain it's more apartments. I'm not sure about the rest, though.

Oh well... the only nation in in old yerp, I pictured to have mostly apartments was Germany especially with its big population and all that. Thats what I get for correcting, based on an assumption...

Oh well... the only nation in in old yerp, I pictured to have mostly apartments was Germany especially with its big population and all that. Thats what I get for correcting, based on an assumption...

Haught where are you from?

I got the feeling from a couple of posts ago that you were British but the 'old yerp' thing is very confusing :)

Oh well... the only nation in in old yerp, I pictured to have mostly apartments was Germany especially with its big population and all that. Thats what I get for correcting, based on an assumption...

Heh, mine's just an assumption based on observation as well. I don't have actual numbers to back me up, mostly cause right now I don't have the time to go looking for them

*spits into the harsh canadian wind*

Get any on ya? *hoping*

:D

European countries have a long history of national identity, spanning hundreds of years.Not to be nitpicky, but the US has a longer history of national identity than Germany. Nearly a hundred years, in fact.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7128172.stm


So, when I now ask why Canada and Australia aren't falling apart in civil war, and why European countries can't let in many more immigrants, I'd presumably get the answer that there is somehow a difference between 21st century Europe and 21st century Canada or Australia.

What is that difference? Both Canada and Australia started off as European colonies. Who got in was heavily regulated. In Australia's case that continued for decades after independence - so it is not that these countries are "historically multicultural" or something esoteric like that. So why is it that Canadians and Australians can apparently be quite happy with lots of immigrants, but in Germany less than half the percentage is considered some sort of crisis by many people?
because without the immigrants, Canada's population would collapse on itself until there's only 1 person left.

Canada can has immigrants? OHNOES! don't tell N.M.G...

Haught where are you from?

I got the feeling from a couple of posts ago that you were British but the 'old yerp' thing is very confusing :)

I'm a Brit, from England, Have you ever heard an English toff say Europe? It sounds like they're saying yerp. Hence, old yerp.

Not to be nitpicky, but the US has a longer history of national identity than Germany. Nearly a hundred years, in fact.

Yeah, the German Empire was unified in 1870 somthing but German, culture and the German people strach waaaay back before America. So the German identity started well before the American war of independace and the colonisation of the Americas by europian's. A lot of the American Identity e.g. Hamburgers, wieners kindergarten etc came from Germany anyway... not to be nit picky. :p

well we are talking about Canada here, 1/5 of their population is...what? 70, 80 people?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7128172.stm


So, when I now ask why Canada and Australia aren't falling apart in civil war, and why European countries can't let in many more immigrants, I'd presumably get the answer that there is somehow a difference between 21st century Europe and 21st century Canada or Australia.

What is that difference? Both Canada and Australia started off as European colonies. Who got in was heavily regulated. In Australia's case that continued for decades after independence - so it is not that these countries are "historically multicultural" or something esoteric like that. So why is it that Canadians and Australians can apparently be quite happy with lots of immigrants, but in Germany less than half the percentage is considered some sort of crisis by many people?

Because Canada is awesome :D...Australia too I guess

That sounds correct. I have difficulties envisioning my Chinese friend as an Englishman ('cause he was born in London)

The Canadians aren't exactly thrilled, though. I've heard talk they want to limit their immigration. Mainly because not enough people speak the language(s)

Not really...It's just some of the rural French people in Quebec who feel that their culture is being threatened by immigrants...and from a couple of news stories I saw, they didn't want to restrict immigration but just make immigrants conform to their society more...

well we are talking about Canada here, 1/5 of their population is...what? 70, 80 people?

There are 33,390,141 people who are Canadian citizens (google). It's about 3 million less than califaunia. (also google)

Someone good at maths can work out what 1/5 of that is, but I'm sure its quite a lot.

Eh, no. Well, some people react that way, but it's far from being the common viewpoint. I know French people of Morrocan, Vietnamese, Tunisian, Italian and other backgrounds. They're French. I -and everyone else I know, themselves included- have always thought of them as such.

Right. But those are established ethnic groups in France (right?) and don't have the same 'immigrant' label that more recent groups have gained.

Not to be nitpicky, but the US has a longer history of national identity than Germany. Nearly a hundred years, in fact.

Before there were 'Germans', there were Teutons. Before there was Germany, there was a Germanic culture. The US as a country is older than Germany as a country, true. But the culture is what I was trying to make a point of.

European countries today, facing clashes between their traditional culture and the new ones being introduced due to immigration, are trying to 'defend' their long-standing cultures. That's why the immigration is causing so much trouble for them; it's a conflict of cultures.

(Just in case: I'm trying to be objective here and not say whether or not any of this is right or wrong, just commenting on what I think of the subject.)

Yeah, the German Empire was unified in 1870 somthing but German, culture and the German people strach waaaay back before America. So the German identity started well before the American war of independace and the colonisation of the Americas by europian's. A lot of the American Identity e.g. Hamburgers, wieners kindergarten etc came from Germany anyway... not to be nit picky. :p

An argument could also be made that the United States didn't become anything resembling a unified culture until the Civil War at the earliest.

because without the immigrants, Canada's population would collapse on itself until there's only 1 person left.

You're in Southern Ontario now?

http://www.seomoz.org/images/upload/simpsons_nelson_haha2.jpg

There are 33,390,141 people who are Canadian citizens (google). It's about 3 million less than califaunia. (also google)

Someone good at maths can work out what 1/5 of that is, but I'm sure its quite a lot.

or someone who knows how to use Google's calculator feature :p ...

6 678 028 out of Canada's population of 33,390,141 are immigrants

What is that difference? Both Canada and Australia started off as European colonies. Who got in was heavily regulated. In Australia's case that continued for decades after independence - so it is not that these countries are "historically multicultural" or something esoteric like that. So why is it that Canadians and Australians can apparently be quite happy with lots of immigrants, but in Germany less than half the percentage is considered some sort of crisis by many people?

But surely, multicultural societies like Canada, Australia, Iran, Belgium, the UK or the US doesn't exist? :eek:

That sounds correct. I have difficulties envisioning my Chinese friend as an Englishman ('cause he was born in London)

The Canadians aren't exactly thrilled, though. I've heard talk they want to limit their immigration. Mainly because not enough people speak the language(s)That depends on where in Canada you are. Some places want more immigration, others less.

I agree to some extend, but please keep in mind that most of Canadas landmass is simply uninhabitable. Well, until global warming kicks in seriously, anyway.
Actually, global warming would make Canada colder overall...

That argument doesn't quite hold:
Sweden: 20/km²
Finland: 15.5/km²
Russia: 8.4/km²
Canada: 3.2/km²

So, while we can't expect 100/km² in Canada, we can certainly assume, that a lot more than now would be possible - ergo: Canada still has a very weak population density.But the immigrants don't evenly disperse themselves. Over two thirds end up in Toronto (3,972/km²) or Vancouver (5,252/km²) which have similar densities to European cities.

Because Canada is a big country. We can take immigrants and not be packed up tightly with them. Not that we don't like or welcome multiculturalism, but it just seems to me that you start getting problems when you start having many different ethnic groups tightly squeezed together with no breathing room. Or something like that. *shrug* Maybe Canada and Australia are just nicer than the rest of the world XP

My only irritation is when they come to Canada to live here not knowing a word of English. Then there are problems, for example, the tasering of the Polish man at Vancouver Airport. Tell me that couldn't have been avoided if he spoke some English ¬¬

Because Canada is a big country. We can take immigrants and not be packed up tightly with them. Not that we don't like or welcome multiculturalism, but it just seems to me that you start getting problems when you start having many different ethnic groups tightly squeezed together with no breathing room. Or something like that. *shrug* Maybe Canada and Australia are just nicer than the rest of the world XP

My only irritation is when they come to Canada to live here not knowing a word of English. Then there are problems, for example, the tasering of the Polish man at Vancouver Airport. Tell me that couldn't have been avoided if he spoke some English ¬¬Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a Polish-English translator at the site?

Filthy-blooded Canadians. *spits into the harsh canadian wind*
That's a poor idea, the spittle is liable to come back and get on your jacket.

But the immigrants don't evenly disperse themselves. Over two thirds end up in Toronto (3,972/km²) or Vancouver (5,252/km²) which have similar densities to European cities.
I did not expect Vancouver to be more crowded than Toronto.

I did not expect Vancouver to be more crowded than Toronto.Toronto has allot more land than Vancouver.

One-fifth of Canadians immigrants

And what do Canadia do? Close the borders?

Nope.

They ease the process.

According to Richard Fadden, deputy minister in the Ministry of Citizenship and Immigration Canada, Canada is in the middle of a process to create an electronic solution for visa applications, to speed things up. Also, they've launched a web portal (http://workingincanada.gc.ca/) to help the flow of information to applicants.

No wonder, since Canada got about two million applications regarding immigration in 2006. (140 000 economic migrants were accepted that year, as was 70 000 immigrants based on family reunification and 30 000 refugees.)

Not to be nitpicky, but the US has a longer history of national identity than Germany. Nearly a hundred years, in fact.

Not to mention that a good chunk of Germany's national identity is, well, there's really no way to tactfully say this, but basically "Germany" and "national identity" don't really go together. Hell, one could argue that, due to the split, Germany's only what, a bit less than 20 years old?

Unlike most European countries, the United States is inhabited primarily by the descendants of relatively recent immigrants. In particular, we have the massive wave of immigration in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, where millions of immigrants came over from Europe. Immigration is part of the American national identity. As is having a hodgepodge of nationalities in your family tree.

I'm assuming that the situation in Canada and Australia is similar to that of the US.

European countries, by contrast, are mostly inhabited by natives who have been there for a long time. They have their own cultural traditions that go back centuries, which they feel are threatened by immigration. I also imagine that since, as far as I know, Europe has only recently experienced this wave of immigration, they don't have as effective a system for dealing with it. And many European countries are seeing an influx from one or two countries, so the immigrants share a common cultural background.

I think I might be able to illustrate this with a little experiment. How about we each name our country of origin, and how many generations their family has been in their country (go with the bulk of your family). I predict that the Americans, Canadians, and Aussies will be mostly recent immigrants, while the Europeans will be mostly natives.

To kick it off, I'm an American, and my family has only been in America for a couple generations.

I would just like to remind all you flag waving Canada bashing Americans that you started off as a BRITISH colony just as we did so really there is no difference between us. I don't mean to be offensive by this or to start a thread war :0 or anything but really give us a break we've fought in nearly every war you have. Also I would just like to add a quote from the war of 1812 that further proves the point that Canada is not inferior to America. "The offensive actions of the United States failed in every attempt to capture Canada." -http://www.historycentral.com/1812/Index.html

Considering the aboriginal population of Canada is about 3.4%, waaaaay more than 1/5 of Canadians are immigrants :P

They're all immigrants. Damn land-bridgers..

Screw you. We populated Asia. You guys got things all backwards.

Meh, it's just tribalism at work. Forty years ago, Canada regarded itself as a thoroughly British colony with a stubborn french province. We adopted this whole 'multi-cultural' policy, and now the only thing we can agree on is that we aren't 'american'.

No wonder immigrants fit in so well. Unlike most European nations, we aren't obsessing over what constitutes being a member of our nation. There's no such thing as Canadian ethnic pride, unless it's some sort of reactionary british colonial thing, which gets increasingly marginalized every year.

Screw you. We populated Asia. You guys got things all backwards.

I don't think you guys count as Asian anymore...

I don't think you guys count as Asian anymore...

When the Asians say, 'Who's our daddy', we say, 'Us, biznatches!'.