NationStates Jolt Archive

Some of you may have seen this picture before.

http://alerio.freehostia.com/oppressed.PNG

There are several problems with this model because it assumes that minorities cannot oppress majorities. I mean, don't communists say that the minority ruling class oppresses the majority working class? So in any case, I decided to do some research on the topic.

I made a pie chart illustrating how many seats in Congress each group holds and got vastly different results:

http://alerio.freehostia.com/oppressed2.PNG

I think the people who cry out anti-christian bigotry may be on to something.

There are a disproportionate number of Jews in Congress.

COINCIDENCE???

There are several problems with this model because it assumes that minorities cannot oppress majorities. I mean, don't communists say that the minority ruling class oppresses the majority working class?

The idea of a minority oppressing the majority only works when the minority has the ability to control the majority, and power over them, the rich minority over the poor majority, for example. However, when we turn to your own examples:

I made a pie chart illustrating how many seats in Congress each group holds and got vastly different results:

http://alerio.freehostia.com/oppressed2.PNG


We see that those "in power", those capable of making the laws governing society, are not only still majority christian, but in fact, in proportion, make up more of those "in power" than they do the general population.

I think the people who cry out anti-christian bigotry may be on to something.

Crack, perhaps...

Fail.

Are you even paying attention to the difference in the two pie charts?

Both the Jewish and Christian congressmen are shown to be overrepresented in comparison to their populations. Nonreligious and all of the other religions are underrepresented.

Your own evidence is saying your conclusion is wrong.

Christian oppression? Hardly.

Followers of Christ being persecuted and oppressed? Not so much here in the west, but most definitely world wide. In fact, 70 million estimated have been persecuted since the death of Christ, 65% of which have been in the 20th century.

But thats not to say that it doesn't happen here. For example, I have had several cases of persecution. No, I have not been imprisoned or beaten to death. However, I have had people punch and spit on me, mock me etc. So it does happen. The bad thing is that most of the mockery of believers doesnt come from non-Christians, but from other Christians.

Wow, a pie chart to illustrate the OP's anti-semitism. How novel. What will they think of next?:rolleyes:

Christian oppression? Hardly.

Followers of Christ being persecuted and oppressed? Not so much here in the west, but most definitely world wide. In fact, 70 million estimated have been persecuted since the death of Christ, 65% of which have been in the 20th century.

But thats not to say that it doesn't happen here. For example, I have had several cases of persecution. No, I have not been imprisoned or beaten to death. However, I have had people punch and spit on me, mock me etc. So it does happen. The bad thing is that most of the mockery of believers doesnt come from non-Christians, but from other Christians.

Then Christians aren't being oppressed, they're fighting among themselves.

Wow, a pie chart to illustrate the OP's anti-semitism. How novel. What will they think of next?:rolleyes:

Exactly how is it reflecting the OP's anti-semitism? Prove it. There is NO proof in the OP of your baseless conjecture.

Wow, a pie chart to illustrate the OP's anti-semitism. How novel. What will they think of next?:rolleyes:

maybe they'll forge documents that hint at a secret jewish conspiracy to overthrow the world through infiltration of its financial institutions and political systems!

Oh...wait... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion)

Then Christians aren't being oppressed, they're fighting among themselves.

Well, I make a difference between believers and Christians. Any one can claim to be Christian, but it doesn't make them a believer. However, if you go into most any denominational Church and you tell them where they are wrong(with accordance to the Gospels), they will attack you relentlessly. So essentially you have a group of people claiming to be something they aren't, attacking and oppressing people who are genuine in their faith.

Exactly how is it reflecting the OP's anti-semitism? Prove it or shut up.

The OP posted a thread talking about possible validity of oppression against christians. To support this he posted only a pie chart, showing the makeup of congress. This pie chart showed that christians were in fact disprortionatly over represented in congress, having a larger than proportional share. This obviously does not reflect any bias against christians as they are, in fact, more proportionate in congress than in the general public.

Therefore, if we must examine this pie chart as evidence for anti-christian oppression as the OP suggests, the only thing that might possibly indicate this is that jews are also dispropotionatly highly represented (though still in the vast minority).

So if the OP posts a graph that shows that jews are proportionatly over represented in congress (despite the same for christians) as evidence of anti-christian bias...what conclusion can you draw?

Well, I make a difference between believers and Christians. Any one can claim to be Christian, but it doesn't make them a believer. However, if you go into most any denominational Church and you tell them where they are wrong(with accordance to the Gospels), they will attack you relentlessly. So essentially you have a group of people claiming to be something they aren't, attacking and oppressing people who are genuine in their faith.

oh my god, so people who have a belief in a subjective interpretation of documents don't like it when you tell them that they are wrong, and your selective interpretation is right?

you're shitting me!

God what a laugh.

So if the OP posts a graph that shows that jews are proportionatly over represented in congress (despite the same for christians) as evidence of anti-christian bias...what conclusion can you draw?

That the OP is incredibly obviously sarcastic?

Exactly how is it reflecting the OP's anti-semitism? Prove it or shut up.

Did you not read the OP? "proving" that Jews have a disproportionate number of seats in Congress, and saying "I think the people who cry out anti-christian bigotry may be on to something."? Fundamentalist Christians are the ones attempting to force their agenda on the entire country, not Jews, not Muslims, and not the non-religious. Show me how his comment was innocent. Put up or shut up.

That the OP is incredibly obviously sarcastic?

One or the other, however as the OP has not returned to clarify his position, I will presume his seriousness.

I can't believe you people didn't get the obvious sarcasm.

I think I may need to go shoot myself.

brb.

I can't believe you people didn't get the obvious sarcasm.

I think I may need to go shoot myself.

brb.

For satire to work, it has to be obvious that the poster doesn't actually believe what he's saying. There are a great many on here who would.

That the OP is incredibly obviously sarcastic?

He must be really good at it, then. If it truly was meant tongue-in-cheek, there were ways he could have indicated that.

For satire to work, it has to be obvious that the poster doesn't actually believe what he's saying. There are a great many on here who would.

I guess accurately representing the number Jews actually in congress really hurt me. Thats really wasn't my intention.

I thought the fact that Christians still held a huge majority and the fact that I said "vastly different" would give it away.

I guess accurately representing the number Jews actually in congress really hurt me. Thats really wasn't my intention.

I thought the fact that Christians still held a huge majority and the fact that I said "vastly different" would give it away.

Unfortunately, it didn't. I apologize, but there are quite a few racists around here that are dead serious about it.

oh my god, so people who have a belief in a subjective interpretation of documents don't like it when you tell them that they are wrong, and your selective interpretation is right?

you're shitting me!

God what a laugh.

What is subjective about "loving thy neighbor" or "Go to all the nations and make them disciples of the Lord" or "freely heal the sick, feed the poor, etc" There is nothing subjective about that at all.

Another case of Christians persecuting believers would be like when white churches of the south, didn't do what the gospel clearly states, which is to take care of the oppressed, and instead fought against believers such as Dr. King.

One or the other, however as the OP has not returned to clarify his position, I will presume his seriousness.

either that, or the op is currently rolling on the floor laughing so hard that (s)he can't type. :p

I guess accurately representing the number Jews actually in congress really hurt me. Thats really wasn't my intention.

I thought the fact that Christians still held a huge majority and the fact that I said "vastly different" would give it away.
The :D in the title is what told me you weren't serious, but I guess the forum has been so long without sarcasm the others didn't see any significance in either that or your intentionally obtuse OP.

To be fair to the others, though, there is somebody out there that would post the exact same thing as a serious point. It's one of the laws of the Internet: No matter how stupid, obtuse, or absolutely wrong a viewpoint is, there is at least one person ready to defend it as the truth.

The :D in the title is what told me you weren't serious, but I guess the forum has been so long without sarcasm the others didn't see any significance in either that or your intentionally obtuse OP.

To be fair to the others, though, there is somebody out there that would post the exact same thing as a serious point. It's one of the laws of the Internet: No matter how stupid, obtuse, or absolutely wrong a viewpoint is, there is at least one person ready to defend it as the truth.

I didn't notice the :D until you pointed it out.

On a side note, the Christian majority should actually be a little bigger. I divided by 435 (number in the House) instead of 535. Just something to think about.

So if the OP posts a graph that shows that jews are proportionatly over represented in congress (despite the same for christians) as evidence of anti-christian bias...what conclusion can you draw?

That the rest of us are woefully under represented and Jews actually got decent representation, and well, Christians no doubt are in control. I really do not see the evidence of anti-Christian bias. When you've got a nation that's a melting pot of cultures like America, yet you've got a two groups seemingly over represented, I don't see the anti-Christian or anti-Jew bias. What this looks like to be is an anti-everyone else bias because we're not good enough to be represented because we ain't Christians or Jews. That graph shows a bias against other groups.

Did you not read the OP? "proving" that Jews have a disproportionate number of seats in Congress, and saying "I think the people who cry out anti-christian bigotry may be on to something."? Fundamentalist Christians are the ones attempting to force their agenda on the entire country, not Jews, not Muslims, and not the non-religious. Show me how his comment was innocent. Put up or shut up.

When you consider the general population of Jews, it's possible to reach the conclusion that they are over-represented, hence disproportionate. This can be applied to the Christian portion as well. As there are many of us left out in the cold to fight over rats like a pack of bloody scavengers.

He must be really good at it, then. If it truly was meant tongue-in-cheek, there were ways he could have indicated that.

Like the :D next to the title? Or the over four years of posting history he has?

When you consider the general population of Jews, it's possible to reach the conclusion that they are over-represented, hence disproportionate. This can be applied to the Christian portion as well. As there are many of us left out in the cold to fight over rats like a pack of bloody scavengers.

True, but how much does a Congressman's religion affect his voting, anyway? Maybe in a campaign it becomes an issue, but religious representation never seems to mean much over the long run in terms of legislative action.

Like the :D next to the title? Or the over four years of posting history he has?

I already explained that I missed the smiley, and despite being here for two and a half years myself, I really don't know him that well. I made a mistake. Feel free to get off my back about it now.

Like the :D next to the title? Or the over four years of posting history he has?

Someone's been paying attention to me! *gasp*

I already explained that I missed the smiley, and despite being here for two and a half years myself, I really don't know him that well. I made a mistake. Feel free to get off my back about it now.

Okay.

Keep in mind that if too many groups get a senate seat even lesss will get done than now. What with everyone arguing and fighting with each other and all.

Do you have any pie charts for asia and europe? Are all groups evenly represented, or are there just atheists and muslims in charge?

Keep in mind that if too many groups get a senate seat even lesss will get done than now. What with everyone arguing and fighting with each other and all.

Do you have any pie charts for asia and europe? Are all groups evenly represented, or are there just atheists and muslims in charge?

No one country in Europe has more atheists and muslims than they do Christians. Get a grip.

For example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_government#Federal_parliament

Note that two Christian parties have a combined total of 40% of the vote...and that doesn't exclude Christians from other parties.

The largest party in Belgium is a Christian party:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Belgium#Political_parties

Or the demographics of Europe?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Western_Europe

The highest muslim population is 7.5% -- most are below 5%. I haven't seen any "Muslim" parties with any power in Europe.

No matter how stupid, obtuse, or absolutely wrong a viewpoint is, there is at least one person ready to defend it as the truth.And then it's called "religion"... :p

No one country in Europe has more atheists and muslims than they do Christians. Get a grip.

For example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_government#Federal_parliament

Note that two Christian parties have a combined total of 40% of the vote...and that doesn't exclude Christians from other parties.

The largest party in Belgium is a Christian party:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Belgium#Political_parties

Or the demographics of Europe?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Western_Europe

The highest muslim population is 7.5% -- most are below 5%. I haven't seen any "Muslim" parties with any power in Europe.

Christian? Let me tell you that the "Christian" tag in the party names don't mean anything really.

I can't believe you people didn't get the obvious sarcasm.

I think I may need to go shoot myself.

brb.

This is one topic where the sarcasm is most likely to be taken for genuine sentiment because it has happened before. Sorry, NG, but I didn't get it either, and though I know you've been here forever, I couldn't instantly remember what your posting M.O. is.

I didn't notice the :D until you pointed it out.

I didn't catch it either.

True, but how much does a Congressman's religion affect his voting, anyway? Maybe in a campaign it becomes an issue, but religious representation never seems to mean much over the long run in terms of legislative action.

It never seems like it does until it does, and that's the way those who wish to impose a theocracy like it.

I'd like to brag that I got the sarcasm immediately, but that's only because I can imagine myself making almost the exact same post. :D

Keep in mind that if too many groups get a senate seat even lesss will get done than now. What with everyone arguing and fighting with each other and all.

Do you have any pie charts for asia and europe? Are all groups evenly represented, or are there just atheists and muslims in charge?

Wait. So you're arguing that we should oppress certain groups so we can avoid debate in a political organization that is largely founded upon the premise that the members should debate different courses of action before making a law? :confused:

I can't believe you people didn't get the obvious sarcasm.


Yea, quite strange.

Once I looked at the two nearly identical pie charts.
I lol'd.

Then Christians aren't being oppressed, they're fighting among themselves.

Your statement is not exactly true. He said MOST, not all, of the persecution was from other Christians.

And THAT is true, at least in America. Outside of America, however, it's another story.

Your statement is not exactly true. He said MOST, not all, of the persecution was from other Christians.

And THAT is true, at least in America. Outside of America, however, it's another story.

Well, considering that I was saying that what he was citing -- Christians fighting with other Christians -- is not oppression, but rather factional fighting, then yes, what I said is true. Are Christians being oppressed in other parts of the world? Yes, in China and in many Muslim countries, for instance. Is the Protestant majority, which holds most of the power, most of the wealth, and sets much of the agenda for this country being oppressed here? Absolutely not. So you haven't been able to force your beliefs and agenda completely on everyone else. Boo-friggin'-hoo. Freedom of religion doesn't mean that you should be free to force your religion on others, and that we just have to live with it. It means that you can believe what you want, and I can believe what I want. If that is not acceptable to you, I suggest you leave and go live in Iran. They already have a theocracy.

And FYI, I'm not even an atheist. I'm just not a Fundie bent on enforcing my will on others in order to stroke my own ego.

Christian oppression? Hardly.

Followers of Christ being persecuted and oppressed? Not so much here in the west, but most definitely world wide. In fact, 70 million estimated have been persecuted since the death of Christ, 65% of which have been in the 20th century.

But thats not to say that it doesn't happen here. For example, I have had several cases of persecution. No, I have not been imprisoned or beaten to death. However, I have had people punch and spit on me, mock me etc. So it does happen. The bad thing is that most of the mockery of believers doesnt come from non-Christians, but from other Christians.


Then may I humbly suggest that you get your house in order?

Keep in mind that if too many groups get a senate seat even lesss will get done than now. What with everyone arguing and fighting with each other and all.

Do you have any pie charts for asia and europe? Are all groups evenly represented, or are there just atheists and muslims in charge?

Speaking for Germany, it would probably be next to impossible to get a chart like this for the simple reason that it's not generally known what religion a member of the Bundestag belongs to. Nobody cares.
Religion isn't used to make politics as it seems to be the way in the US...

No one country in Europe has more atheists and muslims than they do Christians. Get a grip.

For example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_government#Federal_parliament

Note that two Christian parties have a combined total of 40% of the vote...and that doesn't exclude Christians from other parties.



I feel I have to point out that to become a member of the CDU/CSU you don't have to be Christian. I think that used to be a requirement during their times in the Weimar Republic, but it isn't any more.

True, but how much does a Congressman's religion affect his voting, anyway? Maybe in a campaign it becomes an issue, but religious representation never seems to mean much over the long run in terms of legislative action.

This becomes an issue if the legislative issue being voted on has supposedly moral implications, ie: gay marriage. In this case, the rep's religion and morality may play a part, contrary to what his/her constituents may want. Or perhaps on any other hot button issue with moral baggage.

I'd like to brag that I got the sarcasm immediately, but that's only because I can imagine myself making almost the exact same post. :D



Wait. So you're arguing that we should oppress certain groups so we can avoid debate in a political organization that is largely founded upon the premise that the members should debate different courses of action before making a law? :confused:It actually makes sense. The Weimar Republic was brought down in part because the oodles of parties that had seats prevented a stable majority. That's why modern Germany has a 5% hurdle that a party has to meet before being allowed into parliament (ignoring the concept of direct mandates).

Speaking for Germany, it would probably be next to impossible to get a chart like this for the simple reason that it's not generally known what religion a member of the Bundestag belongs to. Nobody cares.
Religion isn't used to make politics as it seems to be the way in the US...

Are you sure about that ? When looking at the Netherlands for instance (where two of the three coalition government parties are Christian and the smaller of those two actually requires members to be Christian) one observes that a majority of the farmers votes is for a Christian party.
Those people seem to definitely take religion into account.

And the madness finally reaches the UK.... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7125521.stm)

The price of breakfast cereal has gone up over the past few years from an average of about $2.69 to over $4.19. This is a sure sign that the foreign workers who mine the wheat, corn, and oats and make them into cereals are oppressing us good Christian folk here in the United States! I think I'm going to go picket the Mexican border.

It actually makes sense. The Weimar Republic was brought down in part because the oodles of parties that had seats prevented a stable majority. That's why modern Germany has a 5% hurdle that a party has to meet before being allowed into parliament (ignoring the concept of direct mandates).

But he wasn't even talking about political parties. He was talking about minority groups. In context, he essentially said that it's a good thing that nonreligious people don't have representation, because they might slow down debates by standing up for their rights.

Are you sure about that ? When looking at the Netherlands for instance (where two of the three coalition government parties are Christian and the smaller of those two actually requires members to be Christian) one observes that a majority of the farmers votes is for a Christian party.
Those people seem to definitely take religion into account.

Sorry, I don't know a lot about politics in the Netherlands.
But I know that bringing his religion up during election campaign was by most regarded as the reason why Stoiber lost to Schroeder a few years back. It's a political faux pas that the German public tends not to forgive. Religion is a private matter, and should be kept out of politics.

Sorry, I don't know a lot about politics in the Netherlands.
But I know that bringing his religion up during election campaign was by most regarded as the reason why Stoiber lost to Schroeder a few years back. It's a political faux pas that the German public tends not to forgive. Religion is a private matter, and should be kept out of politics.

So in Germany there are no clear "voting habits" ? As in certain regions definately favouring certain types of parties more than others ?
Intruiging :)

So in Germany there are no clear "voting habits" ? As in certain regions definately favouring certain types of parties more than others ?
Intruiging :)

Oh, there are. Definitely. Not sure how this would relate to a candidates religion, though ;)
Stoiber back then actually lost support mostly in the Northern and Eastern countries, the Bavarians were going to vote for him no matter what.

And the madness finally reaches the UK.... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7125521.stm)

Damn it, I blame that idiot Blair.

Some of you may have seen this picture before.

http://alerio.freehostia.com/oppressed.PNG

There are several problems with this model because it assumes that minorities cannot oppress majorities. I mean, don't communists say that the minority ruling class oppresses the majority working class? So in any case, I decided to do some research on the topic.

I made a pie chart illustrating how many seats in Congress each group holds and got vastly different results:

http://alerio.freehostia.com/oppressed2.PNG

I think the people who cry out anti-christian bigotry may be on to something.
I agree. After all, America is a Christian Nation, right? Which means that 100% of our elected officials should be Christian! I know that there's something in the Constitution about not requiring religious tests for office or something, but let's get real! America is Christian, so our government should be Christian. The fact that there are non-Christians in office clearly shows that True Americans(tm) are being oppressed.

I agree. After all, America is a Christian Nation, right? Which means that 100% of our elected officials should be Christian! I know that there's something in the Constitution about not requiring religious tests for office or something, but let's get real! America is Christian, so our government should be Christian. The fact that there are non-Christians in office clearly shows that True Americans(tm) are being oppressed.

Yeah! The constitution or something says "unalienable rights from our creator!" And do you know who created us? The Christian GOD, cause all the other Gods are false. So by saying creator when he wrote that, George Washington--the father of this country-- meant Jesus. We're a Christian Nation, and atheism doesn't exist here. It's a purely European phenomenon, you godless communists!
The sad thing is, some people in this country would think I'm serious. They'd probably say something like "Damn right! Praize JEEEZUS!"

Yeah! The constitution or something says "unalienable rights from our creator!" And do you know who created us? The Christian GOD, cause all the other Gods are false. So by saying creator when he wrote that, George Washington--the father of this country-- meant Jesus. We're a Christian Nation, and atheism doesn't exist here. It's a purely European phenomenon, you godless communists!

Damn right! Praize JEEEZUS!