NationStates Jolt Archive

Since we all love fighting about Chávez, this is even bigger news than the farce that his brother-in-spirit delivered in Russia.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7123365.stm
Voting ends on Venezuela reforms

Polls have closed in Venezuela after a referendum on a series of far-reaching constitutional changes sought by President Hugo Chavez.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7119371.stm
Q&A: Venezuela's referendum

On 2 December, Venezuelans will decide whether or not to approve a package of constitutional reforms, which include ending the limits on presidential terms.

Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSN0235721220071202) says sources in the Chávez camp claimed victory based on exit polls. Seems unlikely to me though, given how close it's predicted to be.

So let's try and keep track of what's going on, and the implications thereof.

Since we all love fighting about Chávez, this is even bigger news than the farce that his brother-in-spirit delivered in Russia.
Which is a farce I'm more concerned with. Chavez is a git who thinks he's a world superpower when he isn't. Putin is a git who thinks he's a world superpower when he's pretty damn close.

Which is a farce I'm more concerned with. Chavez is a git who thinks he's a world superpower when he isn't. Putin is a git who thinks he's a world superpower when he's pretty damn close.

That's pretty much it.

It's not clear Putin's victory was a farce--the evidence does suggest that he's pretty popular in Russia.

His party in all likelihood cheated, but also in all likelihood didn't have to.

It's not clear Putin's victory was a farce--the evidence does suggest that he's pretty popular in Russia.

His party in all likelihood cheated, but also in all likelihood didn't have to.
Popular perhaps, but with the state media telling everybody how good he is.

I bet the People of Venezuela will Win.

;)

I bet the People of Venezuela will Win.

;)
Except the >50% of them who won't. ;)

Except the >50% of them who won't. ;)the People of Venezuela has won the last 5 elections.. They are on a roll ;)

I knew about the ridiculous removal of term limits, and the ridiculous proposal that the central bank be put into the hands of the Presidency, but I didn't know about the provision allowing the central government to replace democratically elected local leaders, as well as the gerrymandering bit to create new provinces. Wow. These "reforms" are uniquely totalitarian.

... I didn't know about the provision allowing the central government to replace democratically elected local leaders, as well as the gerrymandering bit to create new provinces. Wow. These "reforms" are uniquely totalitarian.and did you know he is going to make it a presidential privilege to declare anyone he wants to be an enemy combatant.. take away this poor bastard's civil rights and send him to a gulag in Guatanamo.. he is even going to have the right to kidnap the poor bastards in other countries.. :D :D ;) :D

I knew about the ridiculous removal of term limits

Why is that ridiculous?

and did you know he is going to make it a presidential privilege to declare anyone he wants to be an enemy combatant.. take away this poor bastard's civil rights and send him to a gulag in Guatanamo.. he is even going to have the right to kidnap the poor bastards in other countries.. :D :D ;) :D

At least Bush isn't trying to push to stay in government like Putin. Also don't see Bush trying to push for unlimited terms either. Chavez and Putin are a couple of punks. Chavez is harmless Chihuahua but Putin is the one that people should worry about

Why is that ridiculous?

You think dropping term limits is a good idea?

At least Bush isn't trying to push to stay in government like Putin. Also don't see Bush trying to push for unlimited terms either.

he doesn't really need to seeing as how both him and Putin have there nice little corporate oligarchy set up

Chavez and Putin are a couple of punks. Chavez is harmless Chihuahua but Putin is the one that people should worry about

I bet they spend hours hanging about on good peoples lawns smoking!!!

also why should I fear Putin when I'm not in his little circle of nations he wants to control in an US-ish way

According to a news update from MSNBC, the vote is apparently too close to call, but that isn't stopping his cabinet from saying that he won the vote.

You think dropping term limits is a good idea?
Yes,
I think that many civilised countries survive perfectly well without them, and that the fundamental tenet of democracy is people can vote for who they want and that should be restricted as little as reasonably possible.

Umm guys plenty of countries have no term limits, I fail to see how it means anything significant. This is just an attempt by the Right to distract attention from the real heart of the reforms, cooperatives, economic and social justice, grassroots socialism and democracy, helping the poor etc.

Umm guys plenty of countries have no term limits, I fail to see how it means anything significant. This is just an attempt by the Right to distract attention from the real heart of the reforms, cooperatives, economic and social justice, grassroots socialism and democracy, helping the poor etc.

I am sure this will turn out just fine in Venezuela. :rolleyes:

I am sure this will turn out just fine in Venezuela. :rolleyes:

If people keep voting for Chavez, then they should be able to keep him as president, that's democracy. If they don't and he either seizes power or stages unfair elections then he shows he doesn't care about the laws of the land and would have broken them to stay in power whether there were term limits or not.

I am sure this will turn out just fine in Venezuela. :rolleyes:

My country of Australia has no term limits for PM, do you count us a dictatorship?

If people keep voting for Chavez, then they should be able to keep him as president, that's democracy. If they don't and he either seizes power or stages unfair elections then he shows he doesn't care about the laws of the land and would have broken them to stay in power whether there were term limits or not.
Well so far the only people who have staged rigged elections and used the military to take over are the political Right: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Venezuelan_coup_d'%C3%A9tat_attempt

My country of Australia has no term limits for PM, do you count us a dictatorship?

Are you deaf on all the BS that Chavez spouts? You can't take one part and ignore the rest of the story. People like Chavez are dangerous with no term limits. Especially his views on communist/extreme socialism ideology doesn't mesh well with true democracy.

If people keep voting for Chavez, then they should be able to keep him as president, that's democracy. If they don't and he either seizes power or stages unfair elections then he shows he doesn't care about the laws of the land and would have broken them to stay in power whether there were term limits or not.

Then I guess they get what they deserve don't they.

also why should I fear Putin when I'm not in his little circle of nations he wants to control in an US-ish way


You like myself live in a nation that has had to get involved in international affairs gone terribly wrong. So quick answer is that it does concern the UK and other nations.

Are you deaf on all the BS that Chavez spouts? You can't take one part and ignore the rest of the story. People like Chavez are dangerous with no term limits. Especially his views on communist/extreme socialism ideology doesn't mesh well with true democracy.
True democracy is communism, 'liberal democracy' places the means of mode of production in the hands of an elite rich minority, so because this elite controls the economy they also control the political process. Communism is true majoritarian democracy because it puts it establishs common equal ownership over the means of production. Socialism as economic equality is the natural extension of universal suffrage (democracy) as political equality, communism is thus total equality. Liberal capitalism is thus incompatible with democracy.

Sure, why not.

You like myself live in a nation that has had to get involved in international affairs gone terribly wrong.

are you suggesting there has been a point in British history where we haven't had are fingers in all the pies?!

same goes for America, pie fingering FTW!

True democracy is communism, 'liberal democracy' places the means of mode of production in the hands of an elite rich minority, so because this elite controls the economy they also control the political process. Communism is true majoritarian democracy because it puts it establishs common equal ownership over the means of production. Socialism as economic equality is the natural extension of universal suffrage (democracy) as political equality, communism is thus total equality. Liberal capitalism is thus incompatible with democracy.

since when was democracy ever not about voting rich landowners though?

Why is that ridiculous?

Because it's generally a good idea to have them, in order to keep power from being concentrated in the hands of too few...

and did you know he is going to make it a presidential privilege to declare anyone he wants to be an enemy combatant.. take away this poor bastard's civil rights and send him to a gulag in Guatanamo.. he is even going to have the right to kidnap the poor bastards in other countries.. :D :D ;) :D

First off, that's a type of tu quoque fallacy, and it doesn't make my point any less true.

And as for Bush, he is going to be gone in a year, federalism remains strong and much of the government is independent of his control.

None of those can be said for Hugo.

Because it's generally a good idea to have them, in order to keep power from being concentrated in the hands of too few...

good politicians are hard to come by these days, I say we use them as long as we can

Umm guys plenty of countries have no term limits, I fail to see how it means anything significant. This is just an attempt by the Right to distract attention from the real heart of the reforms, cooperatives, economic and social justice, grassroots socialism and democracy, helping the poor etc.

And the startlingly far reaching emergency powers that he can wield? Or the total control over Venezuela's foreign reserves? Interesting to see that no other political position has gained unrestricted term limits. In Chavez's own words, unlimited terms for state governors and mayors would encourage them to become Caudillos. IRONY!

Popular perhaps, but with the state media telling everybody how good he is.

thoughtcrime doubleplus ungood.

And the startlingly far reaching emergency powers that he can wield? Or the total control over Venezuela's foreign reserves? Interesting to see that no other political position has gained unrestricted term limits. In Chavez's own words, unlimited terms for state governors and mayors would encourage them to become Caudillos. IRONY!
Actually I do see some irony, although not exactly the way you do. It's a symbiotic relationship, Chavez through the Presidential council finances all the local communes and cooperatives directly, in this way it allows Chavez to build his socialism by completely bypassing the state governors, the mayor and bureaucrats, and thus decrease the power of the ruling elites.

In the past communal development programs were impossible because somewhere through the elite bureaucratic chain of delegation they were thwarted by the political Right. So because of this Chavez had no real option other than to directly finance the socialist community missions via the Presidential council via state oil revenues, so this move is both pragmatic and ideological. Yes it's a big contradiction because at the same time as the bureaucratic elites and loosing power and relevance - and local grass roots power is growing, the centralized power of the Presidential council (Chavez) is growing.

But also let me get to the symbiotic part, it's a symbiotic relationship because it gives the President more power, but that power is contingent on the efficient and growing communal power missions in Caracas and elsewhere. So it's a contract between Chavez and the people (particularly his poor class backers), as long as the money keeps coming for the missions his support will continue, if he dumps the communes he will loose his support base and be thrown out of office. So Chavez and the building of socialism are mutual things, not so much because Chavez wishes it to be that way but more because practically he can't trust the old guard bureaucracies to build socialism.

good politicians are hard to come by these days, I say we use them as long as we can

And the bad 'uns? you'd like them to be in with no end in sight?

Term limits are good.

thoughtcrime doubleplus ungood.

Resorting to 1984 references is an automatic failure I am afraid, they don't constitute an argument, especially so if you bother to actually find out how many private tv channels exist which are all pretty much anti-Chavez. Please sit back down, all this over-excited talk of 'authoritarianism' smacks to me of the desperation and failure of the right-wing movement in Venezuela. It wasn't Chavez who destroyed it, they destroyed themselves and are now nothing but a laughing stock in the nation, the only opposition to the USPV broad-base movement is fringe at best.

According to a news update from MSNBC, the vote is apparently too close to call, but that isn't stopping his cabinet from saying that he won the vote.

Fuck, the Bolsheviks took power during the Revolution claiming a mandate on what, 20% of the vote?

Actually I do see some irony, although not exactly the way you do. It's a symbiotic relationship, Chavez through the Presidential council finances all the local communes and cooperatives directly, in this way it allows Chavez to build his socialism by completely bypassing the state governors, the mayor and bureaucrats, and thus decrease the power of the ruling elites.

But as you've so kindly pointed out, the opposition is (by your reckoning) powerless in Venezuela. So if the mayors and governors are all socialists too, why does Chavez need to restrict their powers in favour of his own? If everyone is a Chavista, then the local bureacracy are no more a 'ruling elite' than Chaves himself. Surely if the socialist revolution is to be properly implemented then power needs to be close to the people with the local governors and mayors, not centred on one man in Caracas.

Heck, I hope the vote passes. Us Commies need all the help we can get in this world and the man is doing the best he can to protect his country from the Bourgeois and US.

Term limits don't really matter when the whole darn country is in love with em.

But as you've so kindly pointed out, the opposition is (by your reckoning) powerless in Venezuela. So if the mayors and governors are all socialists too, why does Chavez need to restrict their powers in favour of his own? If everyone is a Chavista, then the local bureaucracy are no more a 'ruling elite' than Chaves himself. Surely if the socialist revolution is to be properly implemented then power needs to be close to the people with the local governors and mayors, not centered on one man in Caracas.
The whole Socialist vs Capitalist argument for Venezuelan politics is in itself a false dichotomy, and the 'socialist' movement is extremely broad-based, thus the overwhelming emphasis on unity under Chavez because of the fear of fractionalization and the right-wing opportunism that would create in an atmosphere of confrontation (see Carmona coup attempt on Chavez). The opposition is powerless because of their own stupid mistakes, not because Chavez is repressing them with an iron fist or anything, notions like go contrary to the fact. For example after the coup attempt briefly ousted him, none of those involved were jailed, most fled to the US (the Generals involved) but some are in fact still opposition leaders, the tv is not censored at all, in fact over 10 private channels are all on air and anti-Chavez. The fact is, the failure of the opposition is not due to Chavez, it's due to them being US and ruling class puppets for the rich minorities, and now they are incredibly hated.

good politicians are hard to come by these days, I say we use them as long as we canAnd the bad 'uns? how'bout: If you dont like a politician, do NOT vote for him.

I bet the People of Venezuela will Win.

;)The results are in..
Like I predicted.. The People of Venezuela won.

Venezuela aprueba reforma Constitución Chávez:Gobierno -
45 minutos

CARACAS (Reuters) - Los venezolanos aprobaron el domingo en un reñido referendo con una baja participación una reforma constitucional que amplía los poderes del presidente Hugo Chávez y le permite postularse indefinidamente a la reelección, según datos que maneja el Gobierno.
...
Poco antes, tres ministros explicaron a Reuters bajo condición de anonimato que los datos preliminares que maneja el Gobierno dan al "Sí" a la reforma una ventaja de por lo menos menos seis puntos porcentuales.
http://espanol.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/071203/latinoamerica/latinoamerica_venezuela_referendo_sol

translation: reform approved by democratic referendum. Game over :)

how'bout: If you dont like a politician, do NOT vote for him.
No but that doesn't conform to the right-wing elitist mentality, in their view only the educated rich 'intelligent' elite should be able to vote and choose a leader because everyone else are ignorant poor dregs. If the right can't trust the common people then they don't trust democracy, which is of course why the right-wing 'democracy' is merely a facade for violence.

I don't read Spanish OD.

The results are in..
No, they're not. Your source says exactly the same thing as my link in the OP - that the government claims victory based on exit polls. Let's wait a little while longer, shall we?

Like I predicted.. The People of Venezuela won.
Oooh, you shouldn't let your guard down like that. You're getting perilously close to actually explicitly taking a side here by equating Chávez with the Venezuelan people. But if you do that, someone could actually attack an argument, and you wouldn't want that now, would you.

I don't read Spanish OD.Ill post it as soon as there is an English link.

Oooh, you shouldn't let your guard down like that. Am I? if I am letting my guard down..why dont you take advantage and give me your best shot...

if you do that, someone could actually attack an argument, and you wouldn't want that now, would you.Someone like you perhaps? ;)
If I am such a sitting duck, why do you try and take a good shot? Common..

... and you wouldn't want that now, would you.you know I always welcome some action... receiving and giving.. a couple of well placed left hits on your chin.. and my right ready to strike a thundering blow.. I love it.. I love this place. :D

You're getting perilously close to actually explicitly taking a side...taking sides? thats what I do. Why should I ever stop?

The results are in..
Like I predicted.. The People of Venezuela won.


That, is yet to be seen.

That, is yet to be seen.

My guess is all of Venezuela looses in the end.

The whole Socialist vs Capitalist argument for Venezuelan politics is in itself a false dichotomy,

That's right.

It's more like oligarchs versus fascists.

The results are in..
Like I predicted.. The People of Venezuela won.
http://espanol.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/071203/latinoamerica/latinoamerica_venezuela_referendo_sol
translation: reform approved by democratic referendum. Game over :)
that link was from Reuters, this one is from EFE

2 de diciembre de 2007, 06:15 PM
Caracas, 2 dic (EFE).- El "sí" a la reforma constitucional aventaja al "no", según las primeras proyecciones de los votos de tres encuestadoras venezolanas, mientras en los colegios electorales ya comenzó el escrutinio de los sufragios emitidos hoy por los venezolanos.

PLM Consultores da un 54% "sí" y 46% "no"; Datanálisis un 56% "sí" y 44% "no", y el Instituto Venezolano de Análisis de Datos un 53% "sí" y 47% "no" a los cambios a la Carta Magna promovidos por el presidente Hugo Chávez.
http://espanol.news.yahoo.com/s/02122007/54/latinoamerica-sondeos-dan-victoria-s-centros-cuentan-votos.html

taking sides? thats what I do. Why should I ever stop?
Well, the thing is that if you were to out yourself as a Chávez supporter, you'd have to tell me how he's going to solve the shortages caused by price controls, the ongoing division throughout Venezuela that he is causing (and which isn't getting any better with this referendum, regardless of who wins), the inflation problem (which based on past experiences you'd now expect to get even worse if he takes control of the central bank) and the resulting potential for a currency crisis (which increases exponentially if he is allowed to take charge of foreign reserves himself).

None of these questions could be answered by referring to George Bush even once. You'd have to switch from taking shots at arguments to actually creating one yourself. So have a go: you voted that you're in favour of the referendum. Why? Are there parts that you don't support?

Well, the thing is that if you were to out yourself as a Chávez supporter, you'd have to tell me how he's going to ...
Nope.. I dont have to tell you anything..

Because I don have to.
...





BTW In 2 years I am going to vote in the US elections.. and I dont have a clue how any of the candidates are going to go about solving Iraq.. or any other issue..

But thats is not going to stop me from voting. and No you cant stop me from giving my support to any of the US candidates.. regardless of the fact that I dont have a clue of what they are going to do in the future.

Lol, my google translation is so lame, somehow 'Constitution' became 'Magna Carta'.

So it looks like the referendum failed by a slim margin. Its going get even more interesting come next election in Venezuela.

So it looks like the referendum failed by a slim margin. Its going get even more interesting come next election in Venezuela.6%















what was the margin for Bush again? ;)

Nope.. I dont have to tell you anything..

Because I don have to.
You call that taking sides?

Anyways, I asked you a question, you answer it with "I don't have to answer it". Fine, and factually correct. But on a debating forum, it's still not exactly a convincing option. Nor is hiding behind ignorance.

Right now I'm torn between two options: either you're really more about stirring trouble than anything else and there is no "brain" behind OD, or there is and you're trying to make a monstrous, deeper point about voting without thinking being a good thing, or in a wider sense about the exercise of rights. Neither is particularly appealing.

You call that taking sides?No, I call that "Free Speech". ;)

You call that taking sides?

Anyways, I asked you a question, you answer it with "I don't have to answer it". Fine, and factually correct. But on a debating forum, it's still not exactly a convincing option. Nor is hiding behind ignorance.

Right now I'm torn between two options: either you're really more about stirring trouble than anything else and there is no "brain" behind OD, or there is and you're trying to make a monstrous, deeper point about voting without thinking being a good thing, or in a wider sense about the exercise of rights. Neither is particularly appealing.
OceanDrive------->http://www.geocities.com/hereditarybitch/pwned.jpg<-------Neu Leonstein

Anyways, I asked you a question, you answer it with "I don't have to answer it". Fine, and factually correct. But on a debating forum, it's still not exactly a convincing option. Nor is hiding behind ignorance.

Right now I'm torn between two options: either you're really more about stirring trouble than anything else and there is no "brain" behind OD, or there is and you're trying to make a monstrous, deeper point about voting without thinking being a good thing, or in a wider sense about the exercise of rights. Neither is particularly appealing.I am not in the business of being appealing.. unless you are a sexy+intelligent female.. and are looking for some :fluffle:

Well, I'm happy that the NO has won.

Surprised, eh? I'll explain:

1.While I like Chavez's economy policies, I hate seeing a potential social democracy, or a potential socialist democracy, turning into a populist, personalist state. No presidential mandate limits is too dangerous for democracy.

2.Venezuela IS a democracy, not a dictatorship, and the NO victory proves it. In non-democracies (see Putin's Russia) the president-in-charge always wins the elections (see OSCE allegations about Russia's latest elections). In Venezuela, the opposition has freedom and possibilities enough to sink a constitutional reform proposed by the ruling party.

3.The proposed constitutional reform was meh. What has to do the regulation of working hours/day with a constitution? Absolutely nothing. A constitution is about general principles: it's not a law about specific problems.

2.Venezuela IS a democracy, not a dictatorship, and the NO victory proves it. In non-democracies (see Putin's Russia) the president-in-charge always wins the elections (see OSCE allegations about Russia's latest elections). In Venezuela, the opposition has freedom and possibilities enough to sink a constitutional reform proposed by the ruling party.

Gosh darn right. Gosh darn.

The proposed constitutional reform was meh.
And that is precisely why it was defeated. While some of the reforms were good and socialist and all that, others were downright odd for a constitution (e.g. working hours), unnecessary (e.g. lowering the voting age by two years, redesigning administrative districts) or potentially dangerous (e.g. no term limits, emergency powers).

I really don't see how changing administrative districts, lowering the voting age, fiddling with the working week or playing around with the central bank would have pushed Venezuela further along the road to socialism. Now, if the constitution redefined property rights or greatly increased the government's power to nationalize without compensation, then I could see it going towards socialism.

I really don't see how changing administrative districts, lowering the voting age, fiddling with the working week or playing around with the central bank would have pushed Venezuela further along the road to socialism. Now, if the constitution redefined property rights or greatly increased the government's power to nationalize without compensation, then I could see it going towards socialism.

Qft, old chap. Qft.

6%















what was the margin for Bush again? ;)
One day we'll have a thread without Bush. One day.

Besides, as much as I dislike the idea of liberal economists being anywhere within a one-mile radius of a country's central bank, the solution is to replace them with socialist economists, not to hand over control of the bank to a president who is well-meaning but has no economic training whatsoever.

I hope that Chavez will go ahead and introduce many of these same reforms (for example the reduced working week and expanded pension system) through normal legislation rather than full-blown constitutional amendments, and that he'll come back in a couple of years with something actually socialist on the table.

translation: reform approved by democratic referendum. Game over :)

Uh oh. Might want to get your crystal ball repaired, its telling lies.

This is a good day for Venezuela.

Nope.. I dont have to tell you anything..

Because I don have to.
...


"Your honor, this man is a terrorist. We have reams of evidence of his crimes. But you don't need to see him because we don't have to show you. Our word is enough. He's a terrorist. Give him the death penalty."

Interesting parities no?

Well, I'm happy that the NO has won.

Surprised, eh? I'll explain:

1.While I like Chavez's economy policies, I hate seeing a potential social democracy, or a potential socialist democracy, turning into a populist, personalist state. No presidential mandate limits is too dangerous for democracy.

2.Venezuela IS a democracy, not a dictatorship, and the NO victory proves it. In non-democracies (see Putin's Russia) the president-in-charge always wins the elections (see OSCE allegations about Russia's latest elections). In Venezuela, the opposition has freedom and possibilities enough to sink a constitutional reform proposed by the ruling party.

3.The proposed constitutional reform was meh. What has to do the regulation of working hours/day with a constitution? Absolutely nothing. A constitution is about general principles: it's not a law about specific problems.

Thanks, Risottia, for providing the forums with a viewpoint from a true socialist, being also democratic.

For definitive information, the "NO" option won. That means the constitutional reform was rejected. And even although Chávez pointed out that he was going to try again, the legislation forbids him to so, no matter what he pulls out.

Of course, that means us the venezuelan people won in every way we could win. Chávez "habilitante", (enabling law), allows him to pass laws regarding the good points of the reforms, (like working hours and social security), but forbids him to introduce the political changes, (like endless terms, or lowering the legal age to vote).

Chávez cannot present himself to the next elections, in 2012, and no further attempts to change the constitution can be made until a new president reaches office. So, Chávez can enjoy his last four of rule. I hope he manages to improve more the country in said years.

Uh oh. Might want to get your crystal ball repaired, its telling lies.

This is a good day for Venezuela.aww...

Venezuelans reject constitutional change, Chavez accepts

4 minutes ago
CARACAS (AFP) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez acknowledged Monday his first-ever defeat at the polls after voters rejected reforms in a weekend referendum that would have strengthened his grip on power and turned his oil-rich country into a socialist state.

"Don't feel sad," a chastened-looking Chavez told his supporters via a media conference. He stressed that he had lost by only a "minimal" margin and was encouraged by the support he did get.

The National Electoral Council said "no" votes against the reforms had outweighed "yes" votes by a very narrow 51 to 49 percent. More than 44 percent of registered voters did not show up to the polls.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071203/ts_afp/venezuelareferendum_071203115345

the people has spoken.

"Your honor, this man is a terrorist. We have reams of evidence of his crimes. But you don't need to see him because we don't have to show you. Our word is enough. He's a terrorist. Give him the death penalty."I will not give him the death penalty.. because your word is NOT enough.

So, the referendum failed. Yay!

I'm also pleased to see that Chavez is being a good sport about the whole thing. My opinion of him has increased significantly.

aww...


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071203/ts_afp/venezuelareferendum_071203115345

the people has spoken.

HALLELEUGHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


One strongman "democracy" (read: russia) was more than enough. :):D:p:cool:


although at least the man has balls and didn't basically rewrite the laws so that he would win. He scores points for that in my book. Not that this makes me like him, mind. But my opinion of him has increased a bit

I will not give him the death penalty.. because your word is NOT enough.

But your word is? Idk about that

Mirkana, he doesn't have much of a choice. Four years is a long time.

I'd lay odds that this isn't the last we hear of this.

I'm happy that the referendum failed. No man can survive that much power without succumbing to corruption or doing "well intended" instead of "good."

And the startlingly far reaching emergency powers that he can wield? Or the total control over Venezuela's foreign reserves? Interesting to see that no other political position has gained unrestricted term limits. In Chavez's own words, unlimited terms for state governors and mayors would encourage them to become Caudillos. IRONY!

If this was simply a matter of changing the Venezuelan constitution to fix something that wasn't working, that would be one thing. But there is no indication that there is anything wrong with Venezuela's system. Has the existence of term limits been a negative in Venezuela? Not at all.

If this was an honest effort on Chavez's part to fix Venezuela's constitution, then he would have arranged the change so that the term limits would go away after he left power. That is, if this wasn't a naked power grab, he would have made it so that he couldn't benefit from the change.

Seems like Chavez has accepted his loss in a far more democratic manner than the US backed opposition ever did....

Seems like Chavez has accepted his loss in a far more democratic manner than the US backed opposition ever did....

Yes, give the man the credit he deserves, noone ever said he was inept at political maneouvering. The ones calling him a dictator can shut up now for good.

I have always said that he is just inept at one thing, designing and choosing underlings and collaborators. Sadly, that is the main work of a president to my eyes.

Seems like Chavez has accepted his loss in a far more democratic manner than the US backed opposition ever did....

We'll see about that when his term is up.

I love how every single reference to the large opposition in Venezuela has to include words to the effect that it's the US behind them. Yeah, because we didn't have a problem with the clown being thrown out in 2002, it's all on us. We may have been one of a hundred nations that supported the Afghans against the Soviets, Saddam against Iran or accepted Pinochet, yet it's always our responsibility and our fault for the problems.

Since most foreigners back the democrats and donate to their campaigns, I guess Republicans should just start talking about the foreign backed opposition, looking to influence and control our nations. Like there is anything wrong with us opposing Chavez. Since Chavez and others like him are opposed to Bush, I guess it would be fair for him to say that all his opponents are simply the Venezuelan/Cuban/North Korean/Iranian backed opposition party. I'd love to see the reaction to a campaign around that.

What? No one is claiming that this election was rigged? How...odd.

But your word is? Idk about thatWTF? of course my word is not enough to send someone to the Gas chamber.

I can still support President Chavez, my word belongs to me.

WTF? of course my word is not enough to send someone to the Gas chamber.

I can still support President Chavez, my word belongs to me.
but you'll look like an idiot when asked to defend your support for him and you reply: "Cuz I can".

I suppose I should be thanking you. Your wit (or lack thereof) is a good presentation to the rest of NSG (and anyone who happens to glance our way) about the brightness of Chavez supporters. "Cuz I can". :D

Thanks, dude.:p
What? No one is claiming that this election was rigged? How...odd.
Don't be foolish. Obviously a power-hungry politician nationalizing things to gain power and shutting down freedom of speech of news agencies that oppose him will be more likely to be critized of election fraud than people who simply don't like the way things were (yeah, I can say 'were' now!) spiraling into a totalitarian state.....you know..those people NOT in power and NOT in control of the government..

but you'll look like an idiot when asked to defend your support for him and you reply: "Cuz I can".

I suppose I should be thanking you. Your wit (or lack thereof) is a good presentation to the rest of NSG (and anyone who happens to glance our way) about the brightness of Chavez supporters. "Cuz I can". -any time I want- I can (Cuz I can) support President Chavez -or anyother candidate- without having to justify my choice of candidate.

Just who do you think you are? You really think I am looking for your "approval" .. my political preferences belong to me.
You dont like it that way? >>> So-Sue-Me!© ... or ... Go-Cry-Me-a-River© ;)

It is a triumph both for Venezuela and for progressive humanity that the pink cucaracha's bid for dictatorship failed.

Lets hope this signals a decline for aforementioned cucaracha, and that his epitaph reads:

"por que no te callas?"

What? No one is claiming that this election was rigged? How...odd.

Its possible the pink cucaracha tried to rig it, but failed.

If he tries anything more distasteful, I submit that I know a way he can have a short tenure in office and at the same time be president for life.

*SNIP SHIT THAT CAUSED MY EYES TO BLEED*
Yes that's fantastic and totally not what we're talking about. This is a DEBATE forum and your encouraged and expected to debate and defend your viewpoints, less this place serves zero, count it, zero, purpose.
How old are you even?

This is a DEBATE forum and your encouraged and expected to debate and defend your viewpoints, less this place serves zero, count it, zero, purpose.


I've got a bridge for sale buddy, you interested?

Well so far the only people who have staged rigged elections and used the military to take over are the political Right: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Venezuelan_coup_d'%C3%A9tat_attempt
Interesting that you'd forget the 1992 coup d'état attempts.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f7/Chavezcoup.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6f/Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez_%281992_Coup_Surrender%29.jpg



Anyway, much as I used to like Chavez, and I did, one a scale of one to 'fuck yeah', I'd say that the result of the referrendum is 'woohoo'. At least it shows that the Venezuelan people are only going to get pushed so far.

Chávez "habilitante", (enabling law), allows him to pass laws regarding the good points of the reforms, (like working hours and social security), but forbids him to introduce the political changes, (like endless terms, or lowering the legal age to vote).

Chávez cannot present himself to the next elections, in 2012, and no further attempts to change the constitution can be made until a new president reaches office. So, Chávez can enjoy his last four of rule. I hope he manages to improve more the country in said years.

Indeed. Good luck to him. Let's hope he focuses on making as many positive changes as possible while he has time.

The ones calling him a dictator can shut up now for good.


Hopefully. But you and I both know this isn't going to stop them. They're not interested in truth; they're only interested in pushing their own partisan bias. As a remarkable number of morons here will continue to demonstrate:

Its possible the pink cucaracha tried to rig it, but failed.

If he tries anything more distasteful, I submit that I know a way he can have a short tenure in office and at the same time be president for life.

I love how every single reference to the large opposition in Venezuela has to include words to the effect that it's the US behind them. Yeah, because we didn't have a problem with the clown being thrown out in 2002, it's all on us. We may have been one of a hundred nations that supported the Afghans against the Soviets, Saddam against Iran or accepted Pinochet, yet it's always our responsibility and our fault for the problems.

Since most foreigners back the democrats and donate to their campaigns, I guess Republicans should just start talking about the foreign backed opposition, looking to influence and control our nations. Like there is anything wrong with us opposing Chavez. Since Chavez and others like him are opposed to Bush, I guess it would be fair for him to say that all his opponents are simply the Venezuelan/Cuban/North Korean/Iranian backed opposition party. I'd love to see the reaction to a campaign around that.

Bit of a difference to a CIA led coup of a twice democratically elected leader.

How many foriegners donate to US political parties? I'm sure you have figures for that.

I've got a bridge for sale buddy, you interested?
Can I test it out first?

Indeed. Good luck to him. Let's hope he focuses on making as many positive changes as possible while he has time.



Hopefully. But you and I both know this isn't going to stop them. They're not interested in truth; they're only interested in pushing their own partisan bias. As a remarkable number of morons here will continue to demonstrate:

And which party is that, sweetheart?.

Please, enlighten us with your acumen before you run your mouth...

I think that such results are big moral victory of Chavez, at least outside of Venezuela. Now it will be much harder to call him a dictator. The fact that he is not became a dictator before now shows that he has at least some commitment to democracy.

Bit of a difference to a CIA led coup of a twice democratically elected leader.


Outside of the fact that the coup d'etat was borne of domestic opposition, planned domestically and funded domestically, I don't see how it can be "CIA led". In fact, the only "evidence" that there was any US involvement was that the Venezuelan government claims a plane was flying in the general direction of Venezuela from the general direction of the US, which is generally everywhere north of Venezuela.

Good news. I hope he won't sit a day past his current term. Mind you, I don't see a pressing need for him to leave yet, but the power-gathering trip he's on is unhealthy for the nation.

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

The CIA led coup? I guess it was the same invisibility squad that put Pinochet into power. I really wish we employed them in a better capacity as assassins.

Making outrageous claims is the bread and butter I guess.

Well, I guess there will be plenty of money to be made by shorting the Bolivar (if anybody's willing to buy it...).

So, the referendum failed. Yay!

I'm also pleased to see that Chavez is being a good sport about the whole thing. My opinion of him has increased significantly.

Seconded. This was the test of Chavez's honesty, which he passed (with a good mark). I may not approve his policies, particularly international, but now I see he's decent enough not to meddle with votes.

Seconded. This was the test of Chavez's honesty, which he passed (with a good mark). I may not approve his policies, particularly international, but now I see he's decent enough not to meddle with votes.

I think that such results are big moral victory of Chavez, at least outside of Venezuela. Now it will be much harder to call him a dictator. The fact that he is not became a dictator before now shows that he has at least some commitment to democracy.

Seems it is working already :p

He still has a couple of years to change the constitution, perhaps he will try it again in a few years.

*SNIP SHIT THAT CAUSED MY EYES TO BLEED*here.. have a Kleenex :D :D

Outside of the fact that the coup d'etat was borne of domestic opposition, planned domestically and funded domestically, I don't see how it can be "CIA led". In fact, the only "evidence" that there was any US involvement was that the Venezuelan government claims a plane was flying in the general direction of Venezuela from the general direction of the US, which is generally everywhere north of Venezuela.If some US peps were involved, here is hoping whoever in the US Gov was involved in the coup may die in a horrible way.

If I ever find out who they are.. I will take a plane just to piss on their graves. :D

Seems it is working already :p

He still has a couple of years to change the constitution, perhaps he will try it again in a few years.sure why not, I would give a shot in a few years.

And which party is that

http://www.google.fr/search?hl=fr&q=define%3A+partisan&meta=

It would help if you understood English.

Seems it is working already :p

He still has a couple of years to change the constitution, perhaps he will try it again in a few years.

There's no guarantee that he'll give up power no matter what referendums are passed or defeated.

What? No one is claiming that this election was rigged? How...odd.
Generally it's very difficult for the powerless opposition to rig an election. It's pretty much always the encumbent who does it.

I'm obviously happy with the outcome. Term limits was one thing, but the idea to give central bank- and foreign reserve control to Chávez was really the thing that would break Venezuela's back.

here.. have a Kleenex :D :D
Deciding to just concede to me the fact that I'm right and you're just trolling is fantastic and makes my day. Less work for me.

Deciding to just concede to me the fact that I'm right and you're...sweet dreams (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIKCoUQ7fW8) are made of these.. :D ;) :D :D

sweet dreams are made of these.. :D ;) :D :D
Yeah thanks. I now know not to take your shit seriously, troll.

Well, I guess there will be plenty of money to be made by shorting the Bolivar (if anybody's willing to buy it...).

Unless you happen to have a black market connection you are unlikely to make any money. The official exchange rate of the Bolivar is tightly controlled by the Venezuelan government (hence the black market in dollars in Venezuela).

Yeah thanks. I now know not to take your shit seriously, troll.dont cry.. I hate to see peps cry. :p

Unless you happen to have a black market connection you are unlikely to make any money. The official exchange rate of the Bolivar is tightly controlled by the Venezuelan government (hence the black market in dollars in Venezuela).
His point is when that peg collapses. The exchange rate can only be controlled by the government buying and selling other currencies for Bolivars at the official rate.

When there's a run on the Bolivar and the government runs out of reserves, the peg collapses and you can make a lot of money. Hence our scepticism at the idea that Chávez (who's been spending every dollar he could get his hands on on buying popularity at home and abroad) should control the foreign reserve supply.

I'm actually quite happy about this result too. It shows that on one hand the people can and still do express their democratic rights and on the other, those rights are being respected.

It's a win for democracy, it's a win for the people, it's a win win. He's managed to politicise the population more than any other leader before him... and ironically it's bit him in the arse.

I'm happy for democracy in this case. :)

His point is when that peg collapses. The exchange rate can only be controlled by the government buying and selling other currencies for Bolivars at the official rate.

When there's a run on the Bolivar and the government runs out of reserves, the peg collapses and you can make a lot of money. Hence our scepticism at the idea that Chávez (who's been spending every dollar he could get his hands on on buying popularity at home and abroad) should control the foreign reserve supply.

Is the peg likely to collapse as a result of the referndum though? I'd have thought that preventing Chavez from gaining full control of the central bank and foreign reserves is likely to save the Bolivar, not finish it off.

Uh oh. Might want to get your crystal ball repaired, its telling lies.

This is a good day for Venezuela.
That it is. Good thing MY crystal ball was working :D

Seconded. This was the test of Chavez's honesty, which he passed (with a good mark). I may not approve his policies, particularly international, but now I see he's decent enough not to meddle with votes.
I think it's still too early to give him the benefit of the doubt. The real test of honesty will happen when nobody's looking. If he wanted he could've arranged that percentage, I'm sure, but he'd be very stupid if he did it now, with everybody looking.

If someone was tested here, it was the Venezuelan people.Now we know that the Venezuelan people is divided, a doing of Chavez himself, as he puts in his rhetoric everyone that disagrees with him as an enemy of the nation (Chavez=nation?Yuck).

Whatever happens there, must be a product of that own people's actions. Still I will grieve should the worse become reality. Too many times us south americans have been deceived this way,and it's sad to see Venezuela going down the same ol' road of populism.I hope today is a turning day for this trend.

Generally it's very difficult for the powerless opposition to rig an election. It's pretty much always the encumbent who does it. My point is that people have been claiming all along that every referundum was rigged. I guess this was the ONLY one that wasn't. You know...cuz he lost.

My point is that people have been claiming all along that every referundum was rigged. I guess this was the ONLY one that wasn't. You know...cuz he lost.

Ever play the game Tropico? As the leader during elections you can buy a certain amount of votes but if you really suck you still loose. Maybe that is what went on in Venezuela?

Ever play the game Tropico? As the leader during elections you can buy a certain amount of votes but if you really suck you still loose. Maybe that is what went on in Venezuela?

I forgot all about that game!

*looks for old CD*

Ever play the game Tropico? As the leader during elections you can buy a certain amount of votes but if you really suck you still loose. Maybe that is what went on in Venezuela?

Considering that he's been winning elections 60-40, that seems implausible.

Considering that he's been winning elections 60-40, that seems implausible.

I think the ones that were not bought off woke up. Maybe this is a new dawn for Venezuela.

I think the ones that were not bought off woke up. Maybe this is a new dawn for Venezuela.

What I suspect is that you suddenly believe that NOW there is democracy in Venezuela, because things went the way you'd like them to. Whereas before, it was quite clear that, things being contrary to your expectations, what we were witnessing was a dictatorship pretending to be a democracy. Does this accurately sum up your position?

What I suspect is that you suddenly believe that NOW there is democracy in Venezuela, because things went the way you'd like them to. Whereas before, it was quite clear that, things being contrary to your expectations, what we were witnessing was a dictatorship pretending to be a democracy. Does this accurately sum up your position?

So Chavez doesn't want to be a dictator? What I believe is that there is a fight for democracy in Venezuela. Seems the people have won this round. However that still remains to be seen.

So Chavez doesn't want to be a dictator? What I believe is that there is a fight for democracy in Venezuela. Seems the people have won this round. However that still remains to be seen.

So the 'people' only win when they vote against someone you dislike? Is that your position? That the previous referendums were not democratic processes because they validated Chavez? Will democracy in Venezuela, in your eyes, only be the people voting Chavez down? How does that even remotely begin to be consistent?

Is the peg likely to collapse as a result of the referndum though? I'd have thought that preventing Chavez from gaining full control of the central bank and foreign reserves is likely to save the Bolivar, not finish it off.
Right now the peg is relatively stable because Chávez has access to stable currencies like the Euro through his oil exports. Against that pushes the extremely high inflation rate, which increases the potential pay-offs to those who speculate on the peg collapsing and making a run on the currency more attractive.

As with everything about Chávez, it depends on how much oil PDVSA can produce. If there is any serious disruption, you will see a collapse of the social programs, a collapse of his foreign relations, a collapse of his government-run businesses and a collapse of the currency peg. Bolivarianism is based purely on petro-dollars, but unlike Aramco for example, which the Al Saud clan always knew was the heart of their power and kept at the top of the game, PDVSA is not being appreciated by Chávez - he fired huge numbers of its most skilled people for disagreeing with his policies and going on strike a few years ago.

Anyways, him gaining control of the central bank would mean higher inflation. The central bank's potential to control interest rates is the most powerful weapon against it, and him owning it (and no doubt then using it to improve the lives of the poor/buy support) would deprive it of the little freedom of movement it has. At the same time, if I can speculate, Chávez would have seen the foreign reserves as a big pool of cash that could be used to improve the lives of the poor/buy support and do stuff overseas (he loves spending money on foreigners to get them to like him). Counting on reserves not running out, he would have been more likely to spend that cash, further fuelling inflation and limiting Venezuela's ability to deal with a speculative attack on the peg.

And the collapse of a peg is of course what is known as a financial crisis, which happened in Asia and devastated several countries, as well as Argentina and other Latin American countries a few years before.

So the fact that for now his hands are kept away from the central bank and the reserves is a good thing. I'm not sure whether he won't try for them again later, simply not coupled together with the term limit question. Putin is demonstrating right now that term limits are hardly a barrier for someone who is popular and ruthless in equal measures, and Bolivarianism won't end if he steps down now. So unless the inflation gets out of hand and ongoing and proposed land reforms turn the place into a Zimbabwe-clone in the near future, a currency collapse can be expected in the medium term unless he institutes capital controls which would be right up his alley. But if it comes to that, PDVSA will be in deep shit already, meaning that a stop of foreign capital inflows will turn the place very poor very quickly.

As with everything about Chávez, it depends on how much oil PDVSA can produce. If there is any serious disruption, you will see a collapse of the social programs, a collapse of his foreign relations, a collapse of his government-run businesses and a collapse of the currency peg. Bolivarianism is based purely on petro-dollars, but unlike Aramco for example, which the Al Saud clan always knew was the heart of their power and kept at the top of the game, PDVSA is not being appreciated by Chávez - he fired huge numbers of its most skilled people for disagreeing with his policies and going on strike a few years ago.

They're living on borrowed time; fact is, Venezuelan conventional oil production peaked a while ago and the only way they can hope to maintain or increase that output (which is already well below its official quota and the amount used for the government's budget projections...which means the printing presses are making up the difference) is through increased foreign investment. Hugo's chased almost all of that away, and without the technical know-how or funds, production will continue its decline and that decline will accelerate.

What I suspect is that they suddenly believe that NOW there is democracy in Venezuela, because things went the way they'd like them to. Whereas before, it was quite clear that, things being contrary to their expectations, what we were witnessing was a dictatorship pretending to be a democracy.its the "neocon" Democracy. "If a candidate US-dont-like is elected then probably someone is cheating" :D

If I could draw, I would make a political cartoon of Putin hauling a coffin out of a grave that says "Soviet Union" on it behind a screen of people voting in Venezuela.

"Omg, Chavez is a dictator trying to end democracy in Venezuela! Every time he wins, it's a farce!... wait he lost? Democracy works! No one mind the man resurrecting the Soviet Union behind the curtain"

[QUOTE=The_pantless_hero;13262434]If I could draw, I would make a political cartoon of Putin hauling a coffin out of a grave that says "Soviet Union" on it behind a screen of people voting in Venezuela.

"Omg, Chavez is a dictator trying to end democracy in Venezuela! Every time he wins, it's a farce!So Dictator President Hugo Chavez who controls the election process allowed a democratic vote and lost thinking he would win anyways, notice how Hugo always refers to the government as a Revolution as in permanent and not the government as an administration, notice how he makes the statement lost for now.

Posted by La Habana Cuba :
Make no mistake about it, it is a dictatorship pretending to be a democracy.

So Dictator President Hugo Chavez who controls the election process allowed a democratic vote and lost thinking he would win anyways, notice how Hugo always refers to the government as a Revolution as in permanent and not the government as an administration, notice how he makes the statement lost for now.

No one cares about the Fidel, Raul dictatorship elections, 98 to 99 % of elegible voters referendum petition to declare Cuba's economic, political and social system irrevocable for life in one political party state elections.

What I suspect is that you suddenly believe that NOW there is democracy in Venezuela, because things went the way you'd like them to. Whereas before, it was quite clear that, things being contrary to your expectations, what we were witnessing was a dictatorship pretending to be a democracy. Does this accurately sum up your position?

I wonder what the real result of the vote was, if you factor in Chavez's almost certain cheating? I'm guessing the refendum failed by a margin that was 3-5% higher than the official one.

Actually, I doubt there is very much actual vote-stealing by the Chavez government. They have the state media and tons of oil money on their side, so they have a heavy advantage when it comes to any vote. They don't have to be too blatant in their cheating (and probably don't want to look too bad in the eyes of their useful idiots in the West).

No one cares about the Fidel, Raul dictatorship elections, 98 to 99 % of elegible voters referendum petition to declare Cuba's economic, political and social system irrevocable for life in one political party state elections.It looks to me like.. you have significantly modified the quote by The_pantless_hero.. be advised that the mods have told us to never modify the quotes if it changes the meaning of the original statement.

It looks to me like.. you have significantly modified the quote by The_pantless_hero.. be advised that the mods have told us to never modify the quotes if it changes the meaning of the original statement.

Thanks OceanDrive2, I think I fixed it.

I repeat :

So Dictator President Hugo Chavez who controls the election process allowed a democratic vote and lost thinking he would win anyways, notice how Hugo always refers to the government as a Revolution as in permanent and not the government as an administration, notice how he makes the statement lost for now.

And Add:

Dont any of you be fooled into thinking Hugo is not a dictator or trying to be a dictator because he allowed a democratic vote this time.

Remember Hitler won through democratic elections and became a dictator for life.

Thanks OceanDrive2, I think I fixed it.You are welcome.

and Merry Christmas :)

You are welcome.

and Merry Christmas :)

Don't forget my birthday.

You should be wishing people to "Have a happy Andrew's birthday!" everywhere and all the time.

Don't forget my birthday.

You should be wishing people to "Have a happy Andrew's birthday!" everywhere and all the time.LOL

Feliz cumpleanhos a todos los Andresitos de este mundo :fluffle:
Feliz navidad y prospero anho nuevo.

LOL

Feliz cumpleanhos a todos los Andresitos de este mundo :fluffle:
Feliz navidad y prospero anho nuevo.

Doch perfekt, Schaetzlein! :D

Thanks OceanDrive2, I think I fixed it.

I repeat :

So Dictator President Hugo Chavez who controls the election process allowed a democratic vote and lost thinking he would win anyways, notice how Hugo always refers to the government as a Revolution as in permanent and not the government as an administration, notice how he makes the statement lost for now.

Most governments refer to losses as temporary in one way or others. See how the UK gov is dealing with detention limits etc.

And Add:

Dont any of you be fooled into thinking Hugo is not a dictator or trying to be a dictator because he allowed a democratic vote this time.

So we say 'we think you want to be a dictator so you're not allowed to hold democratic votes'?


Remember Hitler won through democratic elections and became a dictator for life.
Godwin, but what are you saying? Hitler came to power via partially legitimate means, therefore we should condemn it when Chavez loses a democratic referendum?

So the 'people' only win when they vote against someone you dislike? Is that your position? That the previous referendums were not democratic processes because they validated Chavez? Will democracy in Venezuela, in your eyes, only be the people voting Chavez down? How does that even remotely begin to be consistent?

Calm down and wipe your mouth.

This is good for democracy because the Venezuelans were faced with a choice where they could undermine their own democratic institutions and move away from democracy toward autocracy, and they voted it down, democratically.

The Pink Cucaracha, as distasteful of a person as he is, is perfectly capable of being elected, as he has been in the past. That isn't the really all that relevent to the discussion of the vote on the referendum though.

The biggest threat to Venezuelan democracy, the one which couldn't just be shot or blown up if things got out of hand, was the proposed change in the law. Venezuelans chose explicitly whether they wanted to erode their own democratic institutions, and they chose not to.

Ergo, a victory for democracy.

La cucaracha's referendum's happy epitaph: "Por que no te callas?"

Calm down and wipe your mouth.

This is good for democracy because the ..yes, fair and free referendums are ultimate expression of Democracy.

I'm surprised that so many just accept that there was nothing wrong in these elections. There would have been mass voter fraud, but simply not enough.

I'm surprised that so many just accept that there was nothing wrong in these elections. There would have been mass voter fraud, but simply not enough.what country are you from Eric?

what country are you from Eric?

Ready to play the ad hominem card?

Ready to play the ad hominem card?you are from Venezuela aren't you? ;)

you are from Venezuela aren't you? ;)

Of course. We are already getting a degree on arguments, retorts and manipulation. Seven years of being caught in a media war affect us all.