NationStates Jolt Archive

Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi had not (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/30/world/asia/30ship.html?_r=1&ref=world&oref=slogin) told President Bush in a meeting Wednesday that the decisions to deny the ship visits were a “misunderstanding,” as the White House had reported after the talks.

“Reports that Foreign Minister Yang said in the United States that it was a misunderstanding do not accord with the facts.”
Sources: Chinese Government/Yahoo/NYT/OccNEWS

The Chinese Empire strikes back.. :p

First the Submarine surprise, now this..
I guess they dont like us doing war games around Taiwan..

The carrier group? Maybe.

The 2 ships in the storm? Petty.

they must of read up on what happened to the natives last time thanksgiving was celebrated :p

maybe we should send them so "clean" blankets over?

Someone should give Hu Jintao a primer in how to conduct international diplomacy.

Bush gave him an out. Now, Bush is going to have to retaliate in some way.

Someone should give Hu Jintao a primer in how to conduct international diplomacy.

Bush gave him an out. Now, Bush is going to have to retaliate in some way.so... US gov lied. ?

Someone should give Hu Jintao a primer in how to conduct international diplomacy.

Bush gave him an out. Now, Bush is going to have to retaliate in some way.

Yeah, what kind of idiot basically spurns good relations with the most powerful nation in the world? This kinda irks me, I didn't read anything on it yet, but wtf? They stopped our ships?

Anyone wanna post a link? I'm lazy.

so... US gov lied. ?

You sound as if you're surprised.

Someone should give Hu Jintao a primer in how to conduct international diplomacy.

Bush gave him an out. Now, Bush is going to have to retaliate in some way.

Seems like the point of the whole exercise, make the point that they do not fear the US and any actions (what actions?) they migh take.

so... US gov lied. ?
Possibly, but just to give the PRC a chance to come out of this looking okay, to show the PRC that the US was prepared in this case to overlook their childish pettiness in order to continue the up-coming talks in a cordial and fruitful manner.

Instead, the PRC have shown they want the world to know just how petty and vindictive they are and have forced the US into either publicly ignoring their childishness (in which case losing face, letting the PRC to trump on to it's people about how the US has 'given in' to the mighty PRC) or to officially register a protest which will give the PRC a chance to opt out of the up-coming talks (and again letting the PRC propagandise about how the nasty US is letting this stop the talks).

Personally, I see this as a prime example of how the PRC really works. They're akin to a spoilt rotten brat who, upon seeing you playing with someone they hate throw their toys out of the sandpit and whine that you can't come round to play with them anymore.

If it wasn't the US that met the Dalai Lama or sold weapons to Taiwan, the PRC would have made threatening noises about economic sanctions and started 'accidental' loitering on various issues (like they did with Germany when they 'forgot' to attend various talks). Because they can't do this with the US, they resort to this sort pettifogging. Real mature international relationship-building there.
Get used to it, we'll be seeing a whole lot more in the coming years as the US enters a recession and loses more sway over World affairs at the time where the PRC grows in strength and, due to it's massive chip on it's shoulder over how the world views China, looks to impose itself forcefully upon the rest of the world.

Yeah, what kind of idiot basically spurns good relations with the most powerful nation in the world? This kinda irks me, I didn't read anything on it yet, but wtf? They stopped our ships?

Anyone wanna post a link? I'm lazy.
Can't be arsed looking for a link, but the gist is that two minesweepers asked for permission to enter a Chinese harbour due to a massive storm approaching and were denied with no reason given.
The other one was the carrier Kitty Hawk was due to dock in Hong Kong over Thanksgiving weekend for it's last time as it's being decommissioned next year. It had to apply for diplomatic clearance, which is usually a rubber-stamped formality. This time, however, the application was delayed several days (again with no reason given) until the Kitty Hawk + support boats were 300NM past HK and heading towards their base in Japan. It was too late by then to turn around, leaving several families who had flown out to HK especially to spend Thanksgiving with their sons and/or daughters stranded there.
All this 'coincidently' came just after Bush met with the Dalai Lama.

as I said, it's just petty. These ships had nothing to do with the Dalai Lama visit and not only inconvenienced thousands (and lost HK millions$) it actually endangered two navy boats.

Can't be arsed looking for a link, but the gist is that two minesweepers asked for permission to enter a Chinese harbour due to a massive storm approaching and were denied with no reason given.
The other one was the carrier Kitty Hawk was due to dock in Hong Kong over Thanksgiving weekend for it's last time as it's being decommissioned next year. It had to apply for diplomatic clearance, which is usually a rubber-stamped formality. This time, however, the application was delayed several days (again with no reason given) until the Kitty Hawk + support boats were 300NM past HK and heading towards their base in Japan. It was too late by then to turn around, leaving several families who had flown out to HK especially to spend Thanksgiving with their sons and/or daughters stranded there.
All this 'coincidently' came just after Bush met with the Dalai Lama.

as I said, it's just petty. These ships had nothing to do with the Dalai Lama visit and not only inconvenienced thousands (and lost HK millions$) it actually endangered two navy boats.

Hmm... Yeah the Chinese are dicks. I don't like them on alot of fronts I have to say. One of those being Taiwan and other former colonies they're obsessed with regaining control of regardless of how the inhabitants feel. Of course they also usually come off as bigger ethnocentrists than we do (USA number one, god damn it!)... I should stop before I get out of hand, I just don't like them at all.

Personally, I see this as a prime example of how the PRC really works. They're akin to a spoilt rotten brat who, upon seeing you playing with someone they hate throw their toys out of the sandpit and whine that you can't come round to play with them anymore.
.

You just described a common occurrence in how the Chinese operate. I have had business dealings with companies in the PRC. They seem to pull the same crap at that level too. Even in personal relations they are sketchy. This is why I think a war is very possible due to a epidemic of social immaturity

That's rather rude of them. At least give them a little warning.

You just described a common occurrence in how the Chinese operate. I have had business dealings with companies in the PRC. They seem to pull the same crap at that level too. Even in personal relations they are sketchy. This is why I think a war is very possible due to a epidemic of social immaturity

We received a shipment of equipment from the PRC. The quality was shoddy at best. Cases had holes in them, powder coating was irregular, and we found loose components (extra screws and such) in over half-a-dozen units. They tried to deny that happened due to the fact that we didn't videotape the inspection of each unit.

Maybe the PRC should block all US naval ships until they pay back the trillions in debt.

$50 says that the reason China is doing is that Bush hosted the Dalai Llama.

$50 says that the reason China is doing is that Bush hosted the Dalai Llama.

Or maybe because the US wouldn't let them buy Unical.

Maybe this will force some of the companies to move their factories back to stateside. Doubtful, but one can hope.

Maybe this will force some of the companies to move their factories back to stateside. Doubtful, but one can hope.
No trade unions in China friend.

This is the first time I have ever said this, but I admire the American administration for not taking shit from the CCP (on this occasion). When the Dalai Lama visited Australia, the Chinese seemingly ordered our jolly ex-PM not to give him an audience. The complicit fag that he was, Howard acquiesced. I'm no Buddhist, but words cannot express how utterly deplored I was at the fact that WE were taking orders about who we could and could not meet with from a narcissistic, corrupt and anti-democratic government in the interests of some big trade deals that were in the air at the time, especially considering the atrocities committed against various Buddhist groups and Himalayan peoples. But then I guess it's hard to say which is worse: the CCP for demanding or Howard for conceeding.

Incidentally, Germany was similarly punished for Merkel's visiting the Lama. I can't remember how exactly, but it was economic in nature.

This is the first time I have ever said this, but I admire the American administration for not taking shit from the CCP (on this occasion). When the Dalai Lama visited Australia, the Chinese seemingly ordered our jolly ex-PM not to give him an audience. The complicit fag that he was, Howard acquiesced. I'm no Buddhist, but words cannot express how utterly deplored I was at the fact that WE were taking orders about who we could and could not meet with from a narcissistic, corrupt and anti-democratic government in the interests of some big trade deals that were in the air at the time, especially considering the atrocities committed against various Buddhist groups and Himalayan peoples. But then I guess it's hard to say which is worse: the CCP for demanding or Howard for conceeding.

Incidentally, Germany was similarly punished for Merkel's visiting the Lama. I can't remember how exactly, but it was economic in nature.

The Dalai Lama is a wanna-be dictator who wants his serfs and feudal lands back, he is a threat to the sovereign territorial integrity of China and as such should be treated as a traitor, in all honesty China should just kill him and get it over with. Yes China did annex Tibet, but that's ancient history, if that's the argument of some bleeding-hearts around here in Hawaii shouldn't be part of the US, along with many other nations etc.

It could be that I simply do not know enough about the situation, but as far as I'm aware the Lama is no more dictatorial than the pope. However, even the pope would get a bit pissed if some group took over Vatican City and tried to destroy their religion. As for threatening China's soverignty, I'm sure there are many in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Tibet who would use precisely the same argument in reverse. Similarly, if those peoples (supposed traitors) were also killed, the problem would disappear. Killing someone for peacetime political gain is so far removed from normality that I won't consider it further. But, I guess fascism must be appealing somehow, otherwise there would never have been facists to begin with.

Yeah, what kind of idiot basically spurns good relations with the most powerful nation in the world? This kinda irks me, I didn't read anything on it yet, but wtf? They stopped our ships?

Anyone wanna post a link? I'm lazy.link:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_china;_ylt=AtiwXXXdNccMVNRa9TyN0IdPzWQA

The Dalai Lama is a wanna-be dictator who wants his serfs and feudal lands back, he is a threat to the sovereign territorial integrity of China and as such should be treated as a traitor, in all honesty China should just kill him and get it over with. Yes China did annex Tibet, but that's ancient history, if that's the argument of some bleeding-hearts around here in Hawaii shouldn't be part of the US, along with many other nations etc.

Tibet was forcibly annexed as opposed to the peaceful(I think...) annexation of Hawai'i. Furthermore, while you're probably right about the Dalai Lama, he's still the legitimate ruler of a country that should still exist, and should be listened to accordingly.

Tibet was forcibly annexed as opposed to the peaceful(I think...) annexation of Hawai'i. Furthermore, while you're probably right about the Dalai Lama, he's still the legitimate ruler of a country that should still exist, and should be listened to accordingly.
lol

lol

What a stunning riposte. I am amazed and in awe of your abilities as a debater.

The Dalai Lama is a wanna-be dictator who wants his serfs and feudal lands back, he is a threat to the sovereign territorial integrity of China and as such should be treated as a traitor, in all honesty China should just kill him and get it over with. Yes China did annex Tibet, but that's ancient history, if that's the argument of some bleeding-hearts around here in Hawaii shouldn't be part of the US, along with many other nations etc.

You know capitalsim? It just doesn't work anymore since you blew your identity. You probably should scuddle this id and start over.

What a stunning riposte. I am amazed and in awe of your abilities as a debater.

However, some research is making me eat my words about Hawai'i being a peaceful annexation...while the actual annexation itself was peaceful, the period before it was rife with strife.

Still, there is a difference. The Hawaiian culture isn't being oppressed in any fashion(as far as I am aware) and they have the same freedoms as any other U.S. citizens, whereas the Tibetans were screwed over, big time. That makes the Hawaiian Annexation better overall.

You know capitalsim? It just doesn't work anymore since you blew your identity. You probably should scuddle this id and start over.
Everyone has been laughing at him non stop since figuring out he is AP. He needs to realize that his game is getting him nowhere and hurting our perception towards every position he holds.

The court jester title granted to AP really seems to fit too well.

The Dalai Lama is a wanna-be dictator who wants his serfs and feudal lands back, he is a threat to the sovereign territorial integrity of China and as such should be treated as a traitor, in all honesty China should just kill him and get it over with. Yes China did annex Tibet, but that's ancient history, if that's the argument of some bleeding-hearts around here in Hawaii shouldn't be part of the US, along with many other nations etc.

So the 1950s are anceint history?

The good news is that if the Chinese are too much of a brat we can always threaten to not repay our debt. If they threaten back war, we can point out that in between our Navy and our Air Force, they have no way of getting here. And if they threaten nuclear war, we can always point out that at that point they will have neither a country nor a planet. Just a thought.

If we wanted too, I suppose we could arm-twist a neighboring country to block a port call for a Chinese ship.

But that would be very rude of us.

*snip*

I think there's another aspect.

Hong Kong is having its Legco by-election on the 4th, of which the most notable battle is bettern Anson Chan and Regina Ip - one of which is for universal suffrage in 2012.

Here's a summary of the debate - Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Island_by-election,_2007)

I'd say that, along with your points, that it's also a warning to Hong Kong to think about who it elects in this matter, that Beijing ultimately has the power to make decisions that affect Hong Kong.

The Chinese government don't usually act over one specific thing, they prefer multiple results to one action - there's a phrase I don't remember that sums this up.

As for Marrakech II - working in China makes you understand that a deal isn't done until money is paid over, contracts mean nothing. The idea is to not go into a bargain unless you have the upper hand and then you squeeze to death.

Dealing with China is going to one of the greater challenges of this century.

They're not clever, or sneaky - although in Western terms we might see it like that - they're simply focused on the end result over the process - British business people had a similar problem with the US on a sliding scale in this.

The Chinese government don't usually act over one specific thing, they prefer multiple results to one action - there's a phrase I don't remember that sums this up.

Two birds, one stone.

The good news is that if the Chinese are too much of a brat we can always threaten to not repay our debt. I tried that with MasterCard the other day...

They told me that they were going to waterboard my "Equifax".. I told them to go fuck themselves cos "I got no stinking Ekifax and I dont knows wat an Ekifax iz aniwais.. " :D

Maybe the PRC should block all US naval ships until they pay back the trillions in debt.
Then the US would simply launch a trade embargo on, say, Chinese toys, with the blockade and their shoddy quality to blame. Would hurt them a lot this close to Christmas.

Sources: Chinese Government/Yahoo/NYT/OccNEWS

The Chinese Empire strikes back.. :p

First the Submarine surprise, now this..
I guess they dont like us doing war games around Taiwan..

Well, they can suck our balls, 'cause their naval dicks ain't big enough to get into a pissing contest with ours.

Well, they can suck our balls...

12 33.33%
12 33.33%
12 33.33%

aww... looka that poll...

its a 3 way dead heat :D

Screw China. Don't they know that if they mess up too much, the US can find another third world country to exploit. I mean, the US could decide to NOT repay its debt.

Screw China. Don't they know that if they mess up too much, the US can find another third world country to exploit. I mean, the US could decide to NOT repay its debt.

If the USA did just unilaterally decide not to pay back its debt, then all they'd be doing is storing up trouble for the future when no-one will lend them any money when they need to borrow. Cutting nose off to spite face. China and USA's economies are too tightly linked for one to try and muck around with the other.

I think there's another aspect.

Hong Kong is having its Legco by-election on the 4th, of which the most notable battle is bettern Anson Chan and Regina Ip - one of which is for universal suffrage in 2012.

Here's a summary of the debate - Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Island_by-election,_2007)

I'd say that, along with your points, that it's also a warning to Hong Kong to think about who it elects in this matter, that Beijing ultimately has the power to make decisions that affect Hong Kong.

The Chinese government don't usually act over one specific thing, they prefer multiple results to one action - there's a phrase I don't remember that sums this up.

As for Marrakech II - working in China makes you understand that a deal isn't done until money is paid over, contracts mean nothing. The idea is to not go into a bargain unless you have the upper hand and then you squeeze to death.

Dealing with China is going to one of the greater challenges of this century.

They're not clever, or sneaky - although in Western terms we might see it like that - they're simply focused on the end result over the process - British business people had a similar problem with the US on a sliding scale in this.

Very interesting post. Are you working in China now?

they admitted that it's because of the Dalai Lama visit (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-china30nov30,1,1960666.story?track=rss).
China explains snub of ships
From the Associated Press
November 30, 2007


BEIJING -- A Chinese government official said Thursday that his country's last-minute cancellation of a U.S. Navy visit to Hong Kong was not the result of a misunderstanding, as Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi reportedly told President Bush on Wednesday.

Instead, said Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao, it was because Sino-U.S. ties had been "disturbed and harmed" by the U.S. Congress' tribute to the Dalai Lama and by American arms sales to Taiwan.

Congress awarded its highest civilian honor to the Dalai Lama last month. Though the Tibetan spiritual leader is lauded in much of the world as a figure of moral authority, Beijing claims he seeks to destroy China's sovereignty by pushing for Tibet's independence.

Then, the Global Times, a tabloid published by the official party publication People's Daily, cited an unidentified senior colonel in the People's Liberation Army as criticizing Washington's decision to sell Taiwan an antimissile defense system.

That "obviously sent the wrong signals" to Chen Shui- bian, Taiwan's pro-independence leader, the colonel was quoted as saying. China considers Taiwan a renegade province.

"At a time when the U.S. side is seriously harming China's interests, there is no logic under heaven by which China should then be expected to open its heart and embrace it," the paper said in its Thursday edition.

they admitted that it's because of the Dalai Lama visit (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-china30nov30,1,1960666.story?track=rss).

Those crazy Chinese and their "Communism" and their Taiwans and their llamas.

Here are the posts I liked best.

they must of read up on what happened to the natives last time thanksgiving was celebrated :p

maybe we should send them so "clean" blankets over?

===============

Possibly, but just to give the PRC a chance to come out of this looking okay, to show the PRC that the US was prepared in this case to overlook their childish pettiness in order to continue the up-coming talks in a cordial and fruitful manner.

Instead, the PRC have shown they want the world to know just how petty and vindictive they are and have forced the US into either publicly ignoring their childishness (in which case losing face, letting the PRC to trump on to it's people about how the US has 'given in' to the mighty PRC) or to officially register a protest which will give the PRC a chance to opt out of the up-coming talks (and again letting the PRC propagandise about how the nasty US is letting this stop the talks).

Personally, I see this as a prime example of how the PRC really works. They're akin to a spoilt rotten brat who, upon seeing you playing with someone they hate throw their toys out of the sandpit and whine that you can't come round to play with them anymore.

If it wasn't the US that met the Dalai Lama or sold weapons to Taiwan, the PRC would have made threatening noises about economic sanctions and started 'accidental' loitering on various issues (like they did with Germany when they 'forgot' to attend various talks). Because they can't do this with the US, they resort to this sort pettifogging. Real mature international relationship-building there.
Get used to it, we'll be seeing a whole lot more in the coming years as the US enters a recession and loses more sway over World affairs at the time where the PRC grows in strength and, due to it's massive chip on it's shoulder over how the world views China, looks to impose itself forcefully upon the rest of the world.

===============

Can't be arsed looking for a link, but the gist is that two minesweepers asked for permission to enter a Chinese harbour due to a massive storm approaching and were denied with no reason given.
The other one was the carrier Kitty Hawk was due to dock in Hong Kong over Thanksgiving weekend for it's last time as it's being decommissioned next year. It had to apply for diplomatic clearance, which is usually a rubber-stamped formality. This time, however, the application was delayed several days (again with no reason given) until the Kitty Hawk + support boats were 300NM past HK and heading towards their base in Japan. It was too late by then to turn around, leaving several families who had flown out to HK especially to spend Thanksgiving with their sons and/or daughters stranded there.
All this 'coincidently' came just after Bush met with the Dalai Lama.

as I said, it's just petty. These ships had nothing to do with the Dalai Lama visit and not only inconvenienced thousands (and lost HK millions$) it actually endangered two navy boats.

===============

Maybe the PRC should block all US naval ships until they pay back the trillions in debt.

===============

$50 says that the reason China is doing is that Bush hosted the Dalai Llama.

===============

This is the first time I have ever said this, but I admire the American administration for not taking shit from the CCP (on this occasion). When the Dalai Lama visited Australia, the Chinese seemingly ordered our jolly ex-PM not to give him an audience. The complicit fag that he was, Howard acquiesced. I'm no Buddhist, but words cannot express how utterly deplored I was at the fact that WE were taking orders about who we could and could not meet with from a narcissistic, corrupt and anti-democratic government in the interests of some big trade deals that were in the air at the time, especially considering the atrocities committed against various Buddhist groups and Himalayan peoples. But then I guess it's hard to say which is worse: the CCP for demanding or Howard for conceeding.

Incidentally, Germany was similarly punished for Merkel's visiting the Lama. I can't remember how exactly, but it was economic in nature.

===============


The Dalai Lama is a wanna-be dictator who wants his serfs and feudal lands back, he is a threat to the sovereign territorial integrity of China and as such should be treated as a traitor, in all honesty China should just kill him and get it over with. Yes China did annex Tibet, but that's ancient history, if that's the argument of some bleeding-hearts around here in Hawaii shouldn't be part of the US, along with many other nations etc.

It could be that I simply do not know enough about the situation, but as far as I'm aware the Lama is no more dictatorial than the pope. However, even the pope would get a bit pissed if some group took over Vatican City and tried to destroy their religion. As for threatening China's soverignty, I'm sure there are many in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Tibet who would use precisely the same argument in reverse. Similarly, if those peoples (supposed traitors) were also killed, the problem would disappear. Killing someone for peacetime political gain is so far removed from normality that I won't consider it further. But, I guess fascism must be appealing somehow, otherwise there would never have been facists to begin with.

===============

If we wanted too, I suppose we could arm-twist a neighboring country to block a port call for a Chinese ship.

But that would be very rude of us.

===============

Screw China. Don't they know that if they mess up too much, the US can find another third world country to exploit. I mean, the US could decide to NOT repay its debt.

===============

If the USA did just unilaterally decide not to pay back its debt, then all they'd be doing is storing up trouble for the future when no-one will lend them any money when they need to borrow. Cutting nose off to spite face. China and USA's economies are too tightly linked for one to try and muck around with the other.

===============

they admitted that it's because of the Dalai Lama visit (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-china30nov30,1,1960666.story?track=rss).

I mean, the US could decide to NOT repay its debt.

They could. But do you know what happens when an internationally known person with a $50,000,000 debt says he won't pay and runs away? And then tries to get another loan?

They toss him out on his ass.

They could. But do you know what happens when an internationally known person with a $50,000,000 debt says he won't pay and runs away? And then tries to get another loan?

They toss him out on his ass.

Plus the only real real that props up the US these days is printing lots of money, the previous success of the US dollar was that everyone knew it had good value and was stable for trade. Defaulting on loans would effectively render the US dollar useless.

Those crazy Chinese and their "Communism" and their Taiwans and their llamas.
Mind you... Llama bites can be nasty.

they admitted that it's because of the Dalai Lama visit (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-china30nov30,1,1960666.story?track=rss).

If someone took me up on the bet, I would be owed $50 right now.

If someone took me up on the bet, I would be owed $50 right now.

We can bet for money on here? :eek:

If someone took me up on the bet, I would be owed $50 right now.

Well, you can pay me with bandages. stupid, sharp toothed Llamas...

I still don't see why we can't focus on South America instead of China. It would knock China back, make us less dependent on them, and depending on how we go about investing in South America, we can make friends with our souther neighbours, and by making them better, cut back on illegal immigration.

Instead, we deal with this shit.