NationStates Jolt Archive

Is the United States an empire? (http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=11966)

Discuss.

Edit: And let's keep things civil, please. Obviously this is a very contentious issue (what on NSG isn't? :p), but even, let's at least try to have an intelligent discussion, and refrain from ad hominem attacks, non sequiturs, and the like.

Oh, and a poll is coming.

There isn't a concrete definition on what constitutes and empire, so it's not really possible to say for sure.

There isn't a concrete definition on what constitutes and empire, so it's not really possible to say for sure.

Nice spin!

I want to see a UN supervized referendum in every nation that currently has US troops stationed in it. We should leave where we're not wanted, and we can feel free to stay where we are wanted.

Not that it'll ever happen, but I'm betting it would likely solve a hell of a lot of problems with our foreign and military policies.

Not in name, but the status of Puerto Rico, Iraq, and the various military bases around the world suggest imperialist tendencies.

Although to be fair, Puerto Rico overwhelmingly supports remaining part of the U.S. Iraq (aside from the puppet government) does not.

I am not sure that how the people feel is relevant in whether it is an empire or not. There have been many countries that have been part of an empire both willing and unwilling.

Not in name, but the status of Puerto Rico, Iraq, and the various military bases around the world suggest imperialist tendencies.

Although to be fair, Puerto Rico overwhelmingly supports remaining part of the U.S. Iraq (aside from the puppet government) does not.

Nice spin!

Spin? It's the truth.
An empire (from the Latin "imperium", denoting military command within the ancient Roman government) is a state that extends dominion over populations distinct culturally and ethnically from the culture/ethnicity at the center of power. Scholars still debate about what exactly constitutes an empire, and other definitions may emphasize economic or political factors.

I am not sure that how the people feel is relevant in whether it is an empire or not. There have been many countries that have been part of an empire both willing and unwilling.

Fair enough, but usually they're pretty unwilling.

Spin? It's the truth.

Military...economic...political...

...how does the U.S. fail to meet any of these criteria for "Empire"?

Military...economic...political...

...how does the U.S. fail to meet any of these criteria for "Empire"?

'Scholars still debate about what exactly constitutes an empire'

Is the United States an empire? (http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=11966)


Oh, I dunno. I've thought of it as the Evil Empire ever since Reagan gave us that tasty think-bite.

Or am I thinking of that silly movie with the airplanes in space and most of the cast in a garbage compactor?

Serious discussion can now resume, I'm done.

I don’t know if it would constitute an ‘empire’ as in the old sense of the word, à la the Roman Empire. Though as people have pointed out, ‘empire’ can have many definitions.

It’s certainly true, however, that the US has incredible fiscal power (Bretton Woods system, leading to the dollar as the standard reserve currency and major control over the WTO, IMF, World Bank, etc.), military clout(bases all over the world, massive ‘defence’ budget) and political currency (virtual control over the UNSC, strong position due to fiscal and military power) on the world stage.

Without the proper forms of domination and occupation a country cannot be considered an empire, regardless of how broad its potential reach.

Military...economic...political...

...how does the U.S. fail to meet any of these criteria for "Empire"?

By having very little direct domination of other nations. Are there hundreds of military bases in Germany? Why, yes, yes there are. Do the military commanders dictate policy to the German government? No.

Does the US have a lot of military, economic and political power? Certainly, but quantity is not the defining feature of an empire.

Hmm... Superpower, most definitly, Empire, not yet. As has been mentioned, it may have huge economic influence and a number of military bases abroad, but these do not mean it has direct control over said governments. Furthermore, AFAIK, the US military bases abroad, certainly in Europe, are not sovereign territory, ie the country of origin still owns the land which it is leasing to the US.

This said, I could see the current level of influence could becoming far more towards direct control in a very short space of time if the US so wishes. Maybe not in strong 1st world countries (Europe, Korea, Japan), which have strong (albeit smaller) militaries of their own and more independant economies but certainly in the developing countries where the US holds excessive influence.

To be honest, I doubt the US government would go that far. Predominantly because it is far more beneficial to maintain background influence over these states, most of the perks, none of the responsibility.

According to one classical definition, yes, because it fits the 'metropole and peripheries' model: The government of the USA itself makes policy regarding defence & foreign afairs (i.e. is the 'metropole') and the governments of several other political entites (which are its 'peripheries') have to go along with this.
However I wouldn't consider temporary client-states such as (by some people's reckoning) Iraq to be "true" parts of that empire, which I would take to include just the USA proper and its various formally-acknowledged dependencies in the Caribbean & the Pacific i.e. (currently) Puerto Rico, the American Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Guam, the Northern Marianas (which now enjoy the same status as Puerto Rico does, as a 'Commonwealth'), and -- with more freedom, as they are technically independent now, but still "in free association with the USA" -- Micronesia, the Marshall Islands, and Palau.
Of course, considering the extreme disparity in both population and land-area between the USA proper and all of those other polities combined, that's not really much of an 'imperial' role...

I wouldn't call the USA an empire, but I would accuse it of trying to police the world.

Empires are built. The USA seems keener to destroy whilst abroad.

However I wouldn't consider temporary client-states such as (by some people's reckoning) Iraq to be "true" parts of that empire, which I would take to include just the USA proper and its various formally-acknowledged dependencies in the Caribbean & the Pacific i.e. (currently) Puerto Rico, the American Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Guam, the Northern Marianas (which now enjoy the same status as Puerto Rico does, as a 'Commonwealth'), and -- with more freedom, as they are technically independent now, but still "in free association with the USA" -- Micronesia, the Marshall Islands, and Palau.
Of course, considering the extreme disparity in both population and land-area between the USA proper and all of those other polities combined, that's not really much of an 'imperial' role...
A very good point. The actual territories the US holds are insignificant compared to it’s own size. It’s like saying the United Kingdom is still an empire level power because we hold the Falklands and Gibraltar, plus our handful of other islets.

I think the US would like to be an empire but is unwilling to invest the resources and long term commitment necessary to that aim. “Empire Lite” is, ultimately, impossible.

I do think the cultural and economic domination of the US classes it as a superpower, but that is not an empire, though it’s a hazy boundary sometimes, given the real, but very nebulous, power the US holds over it’s puppet rulers.

In some ways yes the US is an Empire... but to be an empire isn't in itself meaning that you are evil or something like that.. The US have influence on world politis that no one has seen since the British Empire or Rome even surpassing these in many ways.. But I would rather have the US than say China or Russia...

Of course the United States is an empire; with bases all over the world and meddling in everyone's affairs, how could it not be? Now granted, it is a unique empire in that it is lobbied to perform on the part of a variety of other nations all over the world, but it is still an empire nonetheless. The only way it could cease to be an empire would be if it repudiated interventionism and began to close down its presence around the world, starting with Iraq and Kosovo.

Political or military empire, no.

Economic empire, possibly.

Cultural empire, absolutely.

Yes. We have control over Hawai'i, Guam, and Samoa, all independent nations at one point, with significantly different cultures from the ruling one.

Well I think the idea of 'Empire' has changed alot this century, although invasions occasionally happen, the kind of naked imperialism is just untenable these days in the era of international borders and self-determination. These days I would say 'Empire' is not so much about directly controlling a country with you're troops and controlling it's economy and politics directly as a colony, but it's instead about making the country 'act in your interest', so while technically autonomous the country is acting in the interests of the 'Empire'.

I would say the Free Market has supplanted colonialism as the method of imperialism these days, no country has direct independence because if they act out against the USA they will be sanctioned, this is a kinda 'sanctions and rewards' regime employed by the US to create a world economy dependent on them. In the old days your borders were decided by how many troops you had, these day's by an international law borders regime, so direct imperialism is untenable.

More or less, yeah.

Yes. We have control over Hawai'i, Guam, and Samoa, all independent nations at one point, with significantly different cultures from the ruling one.

None of those places wish to become independent from the US, though. I'm not sure if that means it's not an empire, but if it does, than many countries are. The UK, for example, controls part of the Virgin Islands, and Denmark controls Greenland. Does that mean they are empires?

As others have said, the United States exerts an enormous influence on the rest of the world, culturally, politically, and especially economically. However, the US has no real political colonies, which I believe an empire needs to be considered one.

The US is no more an empire than Britain or Spain have ever been.

-snip-

Out of curiousity, EA, I know you like Pol Pot and Stalin, and have borrowed Mussolini's ideas, but what do you think of Adolf Hitler?

Well I think the idea of 'Empire' has changed alot this century, although invasions occasionally happen, the kind of naked imperialism is just untenable these days in the era of international borders and self-determination. These days I would say 'Empire' is not so much about directly controlling a country with you're troops and controlling it's economy and politics directly as a colony, but it's instead about making the country 'act in your interest', so while technically autonomous the country is acting in the interests of the 'Empire'.

I would say the Free Market has supplanted colonialism as the method of imperialism these days, no country has direct independence because if they act out against the USA they will be sanctioned, this is a kinda 'sanctions and rewards' regime employed by the US to create a world economy dependent on them. In the old days your borders were decided by how many troops you had, these day's by an international law borders regime, so direct imperialism is untenable.

Amongst other things, you're ascribing far too much power and capability to the ability of the United States to enforce its will abroad through economics. States easily shrug off sanctions, as is evidenced by North Korea, Burma/Myanmar, Iran and others.

Also, you're also describing the mechanisms by which empires function incorrectly. Inherent in Empire is that policies are actively dictated, with limited local choice, from abroad. Economic integration cannot alone be considered a sign of empire. There must be more.

The US is no more an empire than Britain or Spain have ever been.

A compelling argument against.