NationStates Jolt Archive

If these kids spent as much time and effort looking for a job as they do striking and trying to kill policemen, they wouldnt need to strike. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/28/world/europe/28riot.html?_r=1&ex=1353906000&en=50e83e100d64ca1e&ei=5089&partner=rssyahoo&emc=rss&oref=slogin

wait... so the cause of the riots were two teens who died when their motorbike crashed into a police car... were the teens being chased by the police for some reason?

Isn't France one of those "Severe Gun Control" nations?
Of the six in serious condition, four were hurt as a result of gunfire, said Francis Debuire, a representative of the General Union of Police Officers in the district where the fighting took place. One of the four lost an eye and another officer’s shoulder was shattered by a bullet after some of the youths used shotguns as well as firebombs and rocks.

If these kids spent as much time and effort looking for a job as they do striking and trying to kill policemen, they wouldnt need to strike. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/28/world/europe/28riot.html?_r=1&ex=1353906000&en=50e83e100d64ca1e&ei=5089&partner=rssyahoo&emc=rss&oref=slogin

France's unemployment rate nationally is nearly 9%, that's 1 out of every 11 people actively looking for work. Which leads me to believe you're either ignorant or being willfully obtuse.

Damn son.

Post some vids.

Sounds like they need a martial law declaration. If they're taking that many hits to the police and Gendarmerie, the situation is way past half measures.

Reason #27 of why I will NOT go to France.

Can't the French go a few measly years without killing eachother? Damn, how long before they start guillotineing people again? The people want severed heads.

Reason #27 of why I will NOT go to France.
Well, I've survived going to France every year (or more) for 18 years.

Yay! Wait, that's the wrong (right) answer isn't it?

France's unemployment rate nationally is nearly 9%, that's 1 out of every 11 people actively looking for work. Which leads me to believe you're either ignorant or being willfully obtuse.

Probably the latter. Note how he tries to link this to strikes when it's got nothing the fuck to do with it? Either he's extremely ignorant, or he's deliberately trying to spread falsehoods.

Can't the French go a few measly years without killing eachother? Damn, how long before they start guillotineing people again? The people want severed heads.

Huh? When do we go around killing one another?

Here's an article on the situation (http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/news/world/20071127-banlieue-suburbs-violence-riot-villiers-le-bel-cars-burnt-police-teenagers-8-police-dead.html), with video.

Any sane, reasonable person would react to this with simply two comments:

1) The violence is appalling, ridiculous and criminal. Early accounts suggest the cops were not at fault in the deaths of the two young men. Who, incidentally (and before anyone starts spewing nonsense) were reportedly hard-working and well-integrated youths.

2) The two deaths are a tragedy. There will hopefully be a full report on the circumstances, to determine whether or not the police officers were responsible in any way. The investigation should be allowed to proceed calmly, rather than used as a pretext to riot.

If these kids spent as much time and effort looking for a job as they do striking and trying to kill policemen, they wouldnt need to strike

now why would they do that? If you had the choice, would you spend your day chained to a desk somewhere, stuck in cube farm with little hope of promotion or would you rather spend it out on the street, throwing molotav's, (sp?), burning cars, chanting slogans and chucking teargas canisters back?

The French don't even riot well... After the Rodney King trial, it took six days to stop the violence. And there were plenty of beatings, shootings, and burning buildings after the first couple nights.

The instigators have sure set low standards for themselves.

Here's an article on the situation (http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/news/world/20071127-banlieue-suburbs-violence-riot-villiers-le-bel-cars-burnt-police-teenagers-8-police-dead.html), with video.

thanks for the link.

so the two boys and the officer was just an accident.

now this is a WTF moment...

The latest clashes broke out after two youths, Moushin, 15, and Larami, 16, were killed in a collision with a police car Sunday afternoon.

According to the police, the teenagers were riding their motorcycles at top speed and the bikes were not registered for street use.

But friends and relatives of the boys have refuted the reports and they angrily deny suggestions that the two boys were irresponsible.

“Mouhsin and his friend were well integrated; they weren’t young thugs,” Mouhsin’s neighbour told FRANCE 24. Thugs are not the only people that can be irrisponsible. if they were riding bikes at unsafe speeds, then they were Irrisponsible, not thugs, but still irrisponsible. Who cares if they were intergrated or not. does being intergrated mean they can never be irrisponsible in France?

Amid conflicting reports about Sunday’s incident, state prosecutor Marie-Therese Givry on Monday ordered an internal police investigation for "involuntary manslaughter and failure to assist persons in danger." Speaking to reporters, she later said witnesses had confirmed the police officers' version that the bike smashed into the side of their car during a routine patrol.

“We want to know the truth; everything about the deaths of these teens should be open, clear and transparent,” said Zohra Bitan, president of ma6tvachanger, a group that helps young people express themselves on the internet. er... so it was an accident. a tragic accident and people are rioting over that?

Thugs are not the only people that can be irrisponsible. if they were riding bikes at unsafe speeds, then they were Irrisponsible, not thugs, but still irrisponsible. Who cares if they were intergrated or not. does being intergrated mean they can never be irrisponsible in France?


I think the comment was intended as an advanced refutation of idiots who might claim that they were thugs and/or not-integrated.

You have to recall also that, in 2005, when two kids electrocuted themselves while trying to hide from the police, Sarkozy immediately labeled them as thieves and criminals. An investigation revealed that they were not. They had done nothing wrong at all. That may well be what Mouhsin’s neighbour had in mind.

er... so it was an accident. a tragic accident and people are rioting over that?

Yes, because they are alienated urban lads treated like shite by the cops, therefore it doesnt appear like an accident to them. It happens in most countries at some stage. Eventually the cops get the level of policing right, things calm down, and life goes on, somewhat less tense than before.

Looking for a job? France has a very high unemployment rate (even higher for the kids in question...we're talking 20-30% there) and an economy that has been tepid at best and generally stagnant for easily the past 20 years. At least 10% of them couldn't get a job if they wanted to regardless of education and ability simply because the jobs aren't there and the system is skewered to keep the people already employed at their jobs.

Looking for a job? France has a very high unemployment rate (even higher for the kids in question...we're talking 20-30% there) and an economy that has been tepid at best and generally stagnant for easily the past 20 years. At least 10% of them couldn't get a job if they wanted to regardless of education and ability simply because the jobs aren't there and the system is skewered to keep the people already employed at their jobs.

I read if you lived in one of the slums in France they'll just throw away your resume when they see where you live without looking at it.

That'll cause some unhapiness

I think the comment was intended as an advanced refutation of idiots who might claim that they were thugs and/or not-integrated.except the article never mentioned that the police were after those two kids. thus irrisponsible |= thugs. now if some non-police person called them thugs... then it's not the police's fault.

You have to recall also that, in 2005, when two kids electrocuted themselves while trying to hide from the police, Sarkozy immediately labeled them as thieves and criminals. An investigation revealed that they were not. They had done nothing wrong at all. That may well be what Mouhsin’s neighbour had in mind. either way, rioting over an accident?

There are much more important things to riot about.

Yes, because they are alienated urban lads treated like shite by the cops, therefore it doesnt appear like an accident to them. It happens in most countries at some stage. Eventually the cops get the level of policing right, things calm down, and life goes on, somewhat less tense than before.except no one said they were not intergrated. and there was an investigation.

except the article never mentioned that the police were after those two kids. thus irrisponsible |= thugs. now if some non-police person called them thugs... then it's not the police's fault.


So... What's your point?


either way, rioting over an accident?

There are much more important things to riot about.


Why quote me if you're agreeing with me? ;)

So... What's your point? that either way, it doesn't look like it's the police's fault.

Why quote me if you're agreeing with me? ;) emphasis on your point. :p

I read if you lived in one of the slums in France they'll just throw away your resume when they see where you live without looking at it.

That'll cause some unhapiness

Oh, yeah. Xenophobia and racism are big problems, especially when the immigrants in question come from Muslim countries, and especially when those Muslims come from North Africa. And, to make matters worse, that's exactly from where the bulk of the rioters in the banlieues originate. They're really the most underprivileged and economically disadvantaged group in France, and it's showing more and more as the problem worsens.

I think the comment was intended as an advanced refutation of idiots who might claim that they were thugs and/or not-integrated.

You have to recall also that, in 2005, when two kids electrocuted themselves while trying to hide from the police, Sarkozy immediately labeled them as thieves and criminals. An investigation revealed that they were not. They had done nothing wrong at all. That may well be what Mouhsin’s neighbour had in mind.

I'm guessing you're not a Sarko-fan.

Oh, yeah. Xenophobia and racism are big problems, especially when the immigrants in question come from Muslim countries, and especially when those Muslims come from North Africa. And, to make matters worse, that's exactly from where the bulk of the rioters in the banlieues originate. They're really the most underprivileged and economically disadvantaged group in France, and it's showing more and more as the problem worsens.

Indeed.

There have been occasional experiments where people have sent in job applications with identical qualifications but different names and addresses, and employers have rejected qualifications from people living in poor suburbs and/or with Arabic or other foreign-looking names. Discrimination in the job market is a genuine problem, and I can understand people feeling angry and frustrated about it.

that either way, it doesn't look like it's the police's fault.


hmmmm

seemingly what sparked the riot was the cops who rammed the motorbike attempting to flee the scene and the firemen refusing to treat the injured who later died of their wounds because the aggressive police presence was making the situation 'too tense'.

there is a lot more to come from this story yet.

also the 2005 riots were a reaction to the deaths of two (innocent) youths who were chased by the cops

either way, rioting over an accident?

There are much more important things to riot about.

From what I hear the rioters believe that either the police deliberately rammed the bike or that the police did not call for medical aid and fled the scene of the accident.

I don't know whether evidence exists either way but you must appreciate that its not hard to stir up trouble when you already have a large number of unemployed angry youths who already feel that the police are victimising them.

If these kids spent as much time and effort looking for a job as they do striking and trying to kill policemen, they wouldnt need to strike. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/28/world/europe/28riot.html?_r=1&ex=1353906000&en=50e83e100d64ca1e&ei=5089&partner=rssyahoo&emc=rss&oref=slogin

good you should've seen the video I saw it they just pulled out in front of the teens who were racing and you can guess what would've happened. I think pigs in general (there are exceptions) are just criminals with badges and a salary.

*storms the Bastille*

*storms the Bastille*

*rigs up a guillotine*

hmmmm

seemingly what sparked the riot was the cops who rammed the motorbike attempting to flee the scene and the firemen refusing to treat the injured who later died of their wounds because the aggressive police presence was making the situation 'too tense'.

there is a lot more to come from this story yet.

also the 2005 riots were a reaction to the deaths of two (innocent) youths who were chased by the cops

From what I hear the rioters believe that either the police deliberately rammed the bike or that the police did not call for medical aid and fled the scene of the accident.can you link to any article that reports that the cops tried to flee the scene?

and any witnesses that reports that it was the cops who rammed the bikes and not the bikes ramming the cops?
witnesses had confirmed the police officers' version that the bike smashed into the side of their car during a routine patrol.

and why were not firemen attacked for not wanting to render aid?

and the 2005 riots were in 2005. As far as I was told, those officers were punished.

and really, is there any reason for this quote?
“That’s just the beginning,” Cem said. “This is a war. There is no mercy. We want two cops dead.”
not the officers involved, no due process, just execution of any two cops.



I don't know whether evidence exists either way but you must appreciate that its not hard to stir up trouble when you already have a large number of unemployed angry youths who already feel that the police are victimising them.
that may be so, but being easy to get riled up does not make it right.

can you link to any article that reports that the cops tried to flee the scene?



how good is your French?

Here it is in English...

The riots were sparked on Sunday when two teenagers died in a motorcycle accident involving a police car. The rioters seem to be directing their anger at the police after residents claimed that the two officers involved in the crash fled the scene without helping the boys.

"I was there yesterday, and I'm going to be there tonight," said Marc, a 19-year-old who lives on the estate where the accident happened and who would not give his real name. "We don't think it's a good thing to destroy the shops, but we're in this all together. And we won't stop until justice is made."

At about 5pm on Sunday, a mini-motorcycle and a police car on patrol collided, killing 15-year-old Moushin and his friend Larami, 16. Police said the teenagers were driving an unregistered vehicle and were not wearing helmets.

An investigation on suspicion of possible manslaughter and leaving the scene of an accident has been opened by the police oversight agency.

Link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,,2218138,00.html)

Here it is in English...
Link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,,2218138,00.html)

"We don't think it's a good thing to destroy the shops, but we're in this all together. And we won't stop until justice is made."

"We know it is bad to destroy uninvolved bystander's property, but since everyone is doing it, why not. And we won't stop until we set some people on fire too."

Here it is in English...



Link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,,2218138,00.html)
thanks.
hmmm... "claimed", "Possible", "Suspicion" so it's ok for the people to jump to conclusions but not the police?

I see any continuance of the riot will end up badly... since Guns have already been used against the police.

This sort of riot needs to be crushed. Hard.

This sort of riot needs to be crushed. Hard.

bullshit. the cops need to stop killing working class teenagers or face the consequences.

oh and those sniping the OP about his/her mention of unemployement...
"The violence is not acceptable. But we understand the anger," said Didier Vaillant during a press conference with other local mayors. "There's too much unemployment in these estates, not enough affordable housing, not enough education for the young here. I am calling to the authorities to do everything they can to make sure this doesn't happen again."

The government said it would reveal in January a plan to offer 250,000 youngsters in the 750 most deprived areas paid training and work experience.

This sort of riot needs to be crushed. Hard.

bullshit. the cops need to stop killing working class teenagers or face the consequences.

Nice :)

I would indeed say that real measures need to be taken by the French government to help these areas - people have posted unemployment figures of 9% but I'd say, in these areas, it's closer to double that figure.

bullshit. the cops need to stop killing working class teenagers or face the consequences.

and how many teens did the cops kill in the riot so far?

or are you referring to the teens that rammed into the cop's car on their bike.

perhaps the two teens who CHOSE to hide in the power plant while running from cops who only asked to see their ID's?

Nice :)

I would indeed say that real measures need to be taken by the French government to help these areas - people have posted unemployment figures of 9% but I'd say, in these areas, it's closer to double that figure.

all the major riots in France in recent times have been directly as a consequence of the deaths of young people as a result of dubious actions from the hated Police.

reform them and their relationship with the French youth and these outbursts of vengence wont happen.

Is it just me, or does it seem that at any given point in time, about 20% of France is either on strike or rioting? And is the only way to tell the difference between a French strike and riot by whether the participants are employed? I'm not judging, just sayin...

all the major riots in France in recent times have been directly as a consequence of the deaths of young people as a result of dubious actions from the hated Police.

reform them and their relationship with the French youth and these outbursts of vengence wont happen.

and how many teens did the cops kill in the riot so far?

or are you referring to the teens that rammed into the cop's car on their bike.

perhaps the two teens who CHOSE to hide in the power plant while running from cops who only asked to see their ID's?

I don't think it's as cut-and-dried as either of you imply.

Nice :)

I would indeed say that real measures need to be taken by the French government to help these areas - people have posted unemployment figures of 9% but I'd say, in these areas, it's closer to double that figure.

Yes, they do. But this kind of civil unrest helps no one and harms many - and SR, if you have any magical way to stop car crashes, I'm all ears.

Yes, they do. But this kind of civil unrest helps no one and harms many - and SR, if you have any magical way to stop car crashes, I'm all ears.

when you ram a motorbike, dont reverse away and not call for help. when help does arrive, dont send your buddies around to crack a few heads and stop the paramedics doing their jobs.

Sounds like its time to start removing the diapers off the French economy. Its time to remove all the beloved French perks and get to serious work on the economy. Siesta time is over, play time and cig break time is over. Cut the state welfare, reduce taxes by 20% and watch the country quiet right down cause everyone will be too busy working in the booming economy and too tired at the end of the day to riot. I mean christ this is Europe we are talking about here not the Congo.There is NO good reason Frances economy should be in this shape. The problem with the economy is thier own doing. French scence of entitlement MUST be done away with. They can simply no longer afford that luxury.

Sounds like its time to start removing the diapers off the French economy. Its time to remove all the beloved French perks and get to serious work on the economy. Siesta time is over, play time and cig break time is over. Cut the state welfare, reduce taxes by 20% and watch the country quiet right down cause everyone will be too busy working in the booming economy and too tired at the end of the day to riot. I mean christ this is EWurope we are talking about here not the Congo. The problem with the economy is thier own doing. French scence of entitlement MUST be done away with. They can simply no longer afford that luxury.

despite the fact they are rioting because they believe the cops murdered two of their own?

despite the fact they are rioting because they believe the cops murdered two of their own?

'Of their own'?
What are the cops then, some sort of invading force?

'Of their own'?
What are the cops then, some sort of invading force?

thats how they are seen in the North Parisian suberbs, yes.

Maybe there is something wrong with the society there then, not the cops nor even the economic situation can be entirely blamed for that.

No, having lived in North Paris for about 6 months, I blame the cops.

thats how they are seen in the North Parisian suberbs, yes.

Maybe there is something wrong with the society there then, not the cops nor even the economic situation can be entirely blamed for that.

Here's the problem in a nutshell:

The riots of 2005 were followed by a spate of promises by politicians, and by debates and publications about what caused the violence and what must be done to prevent it in the future. For months, the plight of the poor minority youths living in France's suburban ghettoes was everyone's concern.

Sarkozy, then interior minister and already thinking of the presidency, called for a programme of affirmative action - that is, giving preference to disadvantaged minority youths in education and employment.

Such a programme, Sarkozy said, would 'create a hierarchy of priorities' and funnel more aid to poor neighbourhoods and families.

'And if by this we will touch many children or grandchildren of immigrants, that is only normal,' he said.

Two years on, and the 'children and grandchildren of immigrants' are in the streets again, attacking police with paving stones, Molotov cocktails and, in one case, a high-calibre rifle.

In fact, nothing has changed, despite the promises of millions of euros of aid to the dead-end neighbourhoods where the unemployment rate is three to five times that of the national average, and even higher among the young.

Link (http://news.monstersandcritics.com/europe/features/article_1376717.php/Ghetto_rioting_Frances_recurring_nightmare)

To say it's merely a case of police violence is not without basis but it's not the underlying cause of all these troubles, which is a general frustration due to little hope for the present and this future, which creates a disaffected and unemployed youth that then becomes a problem for the police.

Maybe there is something wrong with the society there then, not the cops nor even the economic situation can be entirely blamed for that.

That's what happens when you get a large, unassimilated group of Muslim immigrants.

No, having lived in North Paris for about 6 months, I blame the cops.

Lolz..
People no longer take responsibility for their own actions.
It's okay.

We have the occasional child that gets shot by police in the US too. Shockingly we write letters to the paper, form peaceful support groups and talk to our Congressmen and local leaders and we dont run around rioting every third day and we certianly dont injure almost 100 policemen over it.

Lolz..
People no longer take responsibility for their own actions.
It's okay.

but they are taling responsibility. they are avenging the deaths of two of their neighbours. right or wrong, this is a reaction to a specific event.

We have the occasional child that gets shot by police in the US too. Shockingly we write letters to the paper, form peaceful support groups and talk to our Congressmen and local leaders and we dont run around rioting every third day and we certianly dont injure almost 100 policemen over it.

Yes. Thats exactly what you Yanks did when Rodney King's arresting officers were acquitted. :rolleyes:

Yes. Thats exactly what you Yanks did when Rodney King's arresting officers were acquitted. :rolleyes:

We have one or two events every 20 or 30 years hardly a trend wouldnt you agree? I dont even have to go back 2 years for France. And even in the RK incident there were few if any police hurt on any significant scale.

The event is just an excuse to break sh!t, while blaming it on the 'cops'.


QFT

but they are taling responsibility. they are avenging the deaths of two of their neighbours. right or wrong, this is a reaction to a specific event.


The event is just an excuse to break sh!t, while blaming it on the 'cops'.

Unless every single person in those riots has gone stark raving mad, because clearly rioting is the best way to approach a situation that might have been a complete accident and entirely the fault of the 'victims'.

We have the occasional child that gets shot by police in the US too. Shockingly we write letters to the paper, form peaceful support groups and talk to our Congressmen and local leaders and we dont run around rioting every third day and we certianly dont injure almost 100 policemen over it.

That's why the police always seem to get away with it and keep their jobs here.

The event is just an excuse to break sh!t, while blaming it on the 'cops'.

Unless every single person in those riots has gone stark raving mad, because clearly rioting is the best way to approach a situation that might have been a complete accident and entirely the fault of the 'victims'.

so why did the cops leave the scene and interfere with the medical help?

the urban youth of france are far more politicised than their american counterparts and your over simplified view of the relationship they have with the state will get you nowhere trying to analyse this violence.

s
the urban youth of france are far more politicised than their american counterparts and your over simplified view of the relationship they have with the state will get you nowhere trying to analyse this violence.

Is politicised a fancy way of saying Barbarians and thugs that im unaware of?

so why did the cops leave the scene and interfere with the medical help?

the urban youth of france are far more politicised than their american counterparts and your over simplified view of the relationship they have with the state will get you nowhere trying to analyse this violence.

From what I've heard, it was the mob that scared off the medical help.

so why did the cops leave the scene and interfere with the medical help?

I must have missed something.
the urban youth of france are far more politicised than their american counterparts and your over simplified view of the relationship they have with the state will get you nowhere trying to analyse this violence.
Hehe...ahhh...classic.
Violence in the name of 'politics' or by 'politically informed counterparts' is most definitely justified.

I must have missed something.

read the linked newspaper stories.

Hehe...ahhh...classic.
Violence in the name of 'politics' or by 'politically informed counterparts' is most definitely justified.

all im saying its more complicated than this sort of inane opinion:
Is politicised a fancy way of saying Barbarians and thugs that im unaware of?



From what I've heard, it was the mob that scared off the medical help.

who were attracted to the coppers who were already cracking skulls. chickens and eggs.

when you ram a motorbike


witnesses had confirmed the police officers' version that the bike smashed into the side of their car during a routine patrol.

Because police cruisers drive sideways...

Because police cruisers drive sideways...

At an intersection maybe?

But the fact that they hit the side makes me really think it was an accident.
No one tries to get hit in the side, ever.. if they wanted to hit the motorcyclists, they would have rammed them using the front of the car.

At an intersection maybe?

Ahh, but he said ramming, that means deliberately driving into the other person. Which means that French police cruisers are actually built with sideways drive mechanism. Must make for great parallel parking.

:p

Ahh, but he said ramming, that means deliberately driving into the other person. Which means that French police cruisers are actually built with sideways drive mechanism. Must make for great parallel parking.

:p

Dahm ze Freenche...
Und zeer sydeveyze Cahrz...

This reminds me of 1968, when students pretty much ended President du Galle's political life. This may do the same for Sarkozy. Of course, as this is France, any president of any political persuasion would be protested against.

Lets see what our French thugs errr youth are up to on night # 3 of Lets burn and break stuff for no reason week shall we? "Rioters burned a library, a nursery school and a car dealership and tried to set some buildings on fire by crashing burning cars into them." Yes im certain those librarians and toddlers were up to no good and deserved to be burned out. I always suspected that little Sally was an undercover cop. Whats on the menu to burn and destroy for tomorrow night i wonder? Churches, Hospitals, homeless shelters and old age homes? Scumbags.

What I don't understand is how is it possible for the cops to both flee the scene of the accident, and at the same time interfere with the medics.


That's why the police always seem to get away with it and keep their jobs here.

As for the police in the US. They have come a long long way since Rodney King, mostly due to peaceful means. There are still problems, but killing random cops who may even be completely sympathetic to these youths is ridiculous whether or not the police was at fault. In a Democratic country, destroying private property and murdering innocent police officers is not the way to solve abuses.

Hmm. These riots need to be put down, hard and fast.

We have the occasional child that gets shot by police in the US too. Shockingly we write letters to the paper, form peaceful support groups and talk to our Congressmen and local leaders and we dont run around rioting every third day and we certianly dont injure almost 100 policemen over it.


.....which is presumably why it still occurs on a regular basis.....

2005: Wrong reaction, reasonable argument.

2007: Wrong reaction, unreasonable argument.

What is it gonna be in 2009?

I have great hope for the poor immigrant parisan youths, they hold great promise if the socialist and communist movements would take the initiative of transforming them into an effective leftist militia. At the moment their frustration is undirected and has no chance of formulating change, but arming them effectively and organizing under a anti-establishment 'Paris Commune' type movement could work quite well and give Sarkozy and the other reactionaries a hard time. In time it could be used to launch a coup and kill all business figures. Their are in fact many such ghetto youth groups around the world who hold such potential.

I have great hope for the poor immigrant parisan youths, they hold great promise if the socialist and communist movements would take the initiative of transforming them into an effective leftist militia. At the moment their frustration is undirected and has no chance of formulating change, but arming them effectively and organizing under a anti-establishment 'Paris Commune' type movement could work quite well and give Sarkozy and the other reactionaries a hard time. In time it could be used to launch a coup and kill all business figures. Their are in fact many such ghetto youth groups around the world who hold such potential.

I always look forward to your posts.

Can't the French go a few measly years without killing eachother? Damn, how long before they start guillotineing people again? The people want severed heads.
How many countries can go over a year without a single citizen-on-citizen homicide?
Hmm. These riots need to be put down, hard and fast.

Trying to violently suppress the riots is only going to lend credence to the rioters' cause. If these people believe that their friends are being killed by the police for no good reason then sending the police after them is only going to make them angrier, and more violent, and swell their numbers. What the police need to do is take a defensive position in all this. Try to contain and limit the riots. If they can get public opinion on their side then maybe there won't be any more riots the next time they end up killing some teenager.

Its time to remove all the beloved French perks and get to serious work on the economy.


Sarko ain't going to achieve that by giving huge tax cuts to the rich, increasing his own salary by 206%, then saying that the State is short on funds and that everyone must work longer as a consequence (which is what he's been doing so far).


Cut the state welfare, reduce taxes by 20% and watch the country quiet right down cause everyone will be too busy working in the booming economy and too tired at the end of the day to riot.

You underestimate us. Hard work has never prevented us from finding the energy to go on peaceful protest marches. In the cold and rain for hours, if need be.


I mean christ this is Europe we are talking about here not the Congo.There is NO good reason Frances economy should be in this shape.

What, you mean sixth best in the world? Not too bad for a country that's ranked 48th in size and 19th in population size.


French scence of entitlement MUST be done away with. They can simply no longer afford that luxury.

To be blunt: Piss off and keep your regressive Anglo-Saxon neoliberal filth to yourself.

We'll keep our higher HDI, higher standard of living, higher life expectancy, and better health care, thank you.

That's what happens when you get a large, unassimilated group of Muslim immigrants.

Someone asked me earlier why I pointed out in advance that the two victims were not unassimilated. Now you have your answer. Islamophobic morons who know nothing about the situation but are keen to jump in and spew their hatred anyway.

"Rioters burned a library, a nursery school and a car dealership and tried to set some buildings on fire by crashing burning cars into them." Yes im certain those librarians and toddlers were up to no good and deserved to be burned out. I always suspected that little Sally was an undercover cop. Whats on the menu to burn and destroy for tomorrow night i wonder? Churches, Hospitals, homeless shelters and old age homes? Scumbags.

Indeed. Bloody disgraceful.

I can understand their anger at the discrimination (geographic and ethnic) that young people in poor suburbs are routinely subjected to. I can understand their anger at the way they're often treated by the police (racism and brutality by some members of the police is a sad reality). But this is just seizing on an opportunity to go around smashing and burning. What makes it even more unjustifiable is that the investigation into the tragedy of the two young men's deaths isn't finished.

How many countries can go over a year without a single citizen-on-citizen homicide?

Let's see. Tuvalu. Erm... Nauru? The Vatican? Pitcairn?


Trying to violently suppress the riots is only going to lend credence to the rioters' cause. If these people believe that their friends are being killed by the police for no good reason then sending the police after them is only going to make them angrier, and more violent, and swell their numbers. What the police need to do is take a defensive position in all this. Try to contain and limit the riots. If they can get public opinion on their side then maybe there won't be any more riots the next time they end up killing some teenager.

Indeed.

The French seem to have lost their nerve, moar rioting!

er... so it was an accident. a tragic accident and people are rioting over that?

Thats about the gist of it, yes.

The French seem to have lost their nerve, moar rioting!

Where's your rioting hmm? I don't see any Australians rioting to create a communist paradise. Or any figureheads shouting from rooftops to kill the proletariat. Only a windbag who risks nothing by posting anonymously. Who is without nerve hmm?

Thats about the gist of it, yes.

Well, that and the history of the lower class teens, especially the not white ones, and the police having something of a hate-hate relationship.

Well, that and the history of the lower class teens, especially the not white ones, and the police having something of a hate-hate relationship.

Perhaps, I do though admire the French for the ease in which they can slip into civil disobedience. I for one am awaiting the next lorry drivers strike/blockade with baited breath.

Perhaps, I do though admire the French for the ease in which they can slip into civil disobedience. I for one am awaiting the next lorry drivers strike/blockade with baited breath.

I don't know about you, but if the disillusion teens and the lorry drivers join forces, the riots will get a lot more exciting.

I don't know about you, but if the disillusion teens and the lorry drivers join forces, the riots will get a lot more exciting.

Heh Riot's exciting?

Well I guess, perhaps, at times. Or perhaps it is an age thing? I remeber the Brixton riots, I remember traveling to Brixton so that I could umm 'witness' first hand all of the excitment. Then the clock goes forward and I'm 10-15 years older, and the poll tax roits occour.

This time around they where more scarry than exciting, but yeah I get your drift.

Perhaps, I do though admire the French for the ease in which they can slip into civil disobedience. I for one am awaiting the next lorry drivers strike/blockade with baited breath.

Heh, yes, those are always fun.

There's a difference, though, between, on the one hand, strikes, peaceful protest marches and civil disobediance, and on the other hand pointless riots. The foreign media like to blur the two, and as a result it seems that many foreigners have difficulty distinguishing them.

France has a long and proud tradition of going on strike and taking part in protest marches, generally peaceful. Riots are (for the most part) a much rarer, newer and worrying phenomenon.

Heh Riot's exciting?

Well I guess, perhaps, at times. Or perhaps it is an age thing? I remeber the Brixton riots, I remember traveling to Brixton so that I could umm 'witness' first hand all of the excitment. Then the clock goes forward and I'm 10-15 years older, and the poll tax roits occour.

This time around they where more scarry than exciting, but yeah I get your drift.

Teens rioting is one thing. Lorry drivers barricading roads is one thing. But lorry driver barricading roads with their lorries full of rioting teens is a WHOLE other story.

Teens rioting is one thing. Lorry drivers barricading roads is one thing. But lorry driver barricading roads with their lorries full of rioting teens is a WHOLE other story.

Ummm keep it going I have a mental image forming....

Tell me though, would these rioting teens be locked in the back of these lorries?

Ummm keep it going I have a mental image forming....

Tell me though, would these rioting teens be locked in the back of these lorries?

At first, but when the lorry drivers make the barricade, they let them out. Sort of like a portable riot.
'Need a riot in Lyon? No worries, we're got a dozen lorries stuffed with the best Parisienne rioters money can buy.'

At first, but when the lorry drivers make the barricade, they let them out. Sort of like a portable riot.
'Need a riot in Lyon? No worries, we're got a dozen lorries stuffed with the best Parisienne rioters money can buy.'

Heh sweet, 'Rent a Riot':D

Could some people also remind that thoses riots are organised by a very little minority ?
We spoke of a few thousands deluded stupid teenagers who only saw burning things as a cool occupation...of course they have excuses, but I see no reason why we should be lenient with them, when the 3/4 of the others young "molested" doens't fall into criminality and violence, huh ?

About gun control, as severe as it is, no one could stop a handfull guys to have weapons smuggled into a country...the numbers of firearms used in crimes is still very, very low.

By the way, this has nothing to do with strikes.

The fact is that it's a tradition in this country, going on the streets.
It's "historic" but it's mainly because our governing body and economic leaders NEVER negociate anything if there's not the threat of a strike.
Without this you obtain nothing.

Something like the relationship between writers and film companies in USA, but at every step of the society.

A culture of the clash.

At least, about the economy.
France is still crippled with a great unemployment, and haven't been in a good economic growth for 30 years...except during the last Socialist government, under Prime Minister Lionel Jospin, from 1997 to 2002...
Don't think much people knew this.
Still, I absolutly don't think anglo-saxon model could be considered, it shows more and more of his fail nowadays, and it's only the beginning.
Plus, being still the sixth ecenomic power in the world with such awful conditions makes me wonder ^^

Oh, and I bet most of you are thinking that it's illegal to work more than 35 hours in France ? :D
Late me just said that the real worked time in France is in fact more than 37 hours, when it's under 34 hours in UK or Germany...