NationStates Jolt Archive

I looked around and couldn't find anything, so I don't know if this is old or not. But I saw this in the newspaper the other day and was horrified.

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,22813376-5012777,00.html

NEO-Nazis carved a swastika into a 17-year-old girl's hip in eastern Germany after she came to the aid of an immigrant girl they were pushing around.

The girl told police three young skinheads held her down while a fourth cut the Nazi emblem into her flesh with a long thin piece of metal, leaving a 5cm-long scar, police spokeswoman Heidi Hennig said.

The gang then tried to slash her face, threatening to cut the letters SS into her cheek, but she managed to run away.

The teenager was attacked in the town of Mittweida after she tried to stop the group of neo-Nazis shoving around the six-year-old from an immigrant family.

The prosecutor said the attack happened on November 3, but the victim waited several days to tell her mother.

"A medical examination showed she could not have inflicted the scars herself," Ms Hennig said.

The police had found the little girl who was harrassed by the group and she confirmed the events, she said.

According to the victim, several people watched the attack from the balconies of their apartments.

The interior minister of the state of Saxony, Albrecht Buttolo, has called on witnesses to come forward, describing the attack as "very bad news".

Germany has in recent years watched in alarm as violent crimes linked to the far-right have increased, along with political support for the neo-Nazi National Democratic Party.

The NPD is now represented in two regional state parliaments, including Saxony. A former lawyer for the party was today sentenced to six months in jail for making the Nazi salute.

If you were in her situation would you have tried to intervene? I know I would have.

Why can't neo-nazis just play nice :(

Cause they have shit for brains, and are generally violent losers?

Well then couldn't they at least live in some kind of commune where they're only violent to each other?

gods...these neo-nazis deserve a good kick in the crotch for this. preferably administered by the girl they carved up, while shes wearing sharply pointed shoes (or she could use stilleto heels)

Why can't neo-nazis just play nice :(

Cause they have shit for brains, and are generally violent losers?

Yeah, that is the requirement for being a Nazi. The IQ of a duck, a desparate need to take a refreshing dip in the gene pool and an overwhelming build up of hatred, fear and jealousy anyone who looks or thinks differently. I'm pretty liberal on most issues but I've got no patience whatsoever for fascists and nazis, governments should get tougher on them. Imprisoning a chap for 6 months for a nazi salute is a good start, but its only a start.
P.S. I'd like to issue an apology to all ducks across the world for that demeaning comparison.

If you were in her situation would you have tried to intervene? I know I would have.
I probably would have acted before thinking. This sort of thing just ticks me off the worst way.

It's not as big a problem here, but if it was, I'd consider carrying pepper spray or something of the sort around with me just for these sorts of situations.

The real problem in places like Saxony is however the complicitness of local governments. The mayor of Mittweida probably goes to the same pub as these neo-nazis and knows all their fathers (committed nazis themselves, of course) on a first name, drinking buddy basis.

Here's a thought, if a neo-Nazi attacks a person unprovoked, they should have their reproductive rights taken away. ie: forced sterilisation.

Here's a thought, if a neo-Nazi attacks a person unprovoked, they should have their reproductive rights taken away. ie: forced sterilisation.

Ah yes, but what about other people attacking a person unprovoked? And then you have the whole deal of how to see if something is really "unprovoked"? I wish life and law were simple :p

Ah yes, but what about other people attacking a person unprovoked? And then you have the whole deal of how to see if something is really "unprovoked"? I wish life and law were simple :p

We need to hurry up and invent magic so we can sort these things out.

One way or the other these scum present a threat to all the world, Europe especially, we need to take action against them, use the lessons we learnt at the price of fifty million casulties. We've got to hold together and stop them from corrupting our continent like they did seventy years ago. If we don't? Well just look at what happens when you don't stand up to Nazis in any WWII book.

One way or the other these scum present a threat to all the world, Europe especially, we need to take action against them, use the lessons we learnt at the price of fifty million casulties. We've got to hold together and stop them from corrupting our continent like they did seventy years ago. If we don't? Well just look at what happens when you don't stand up to Nazis in any WWII book.

For some reason I doubt that the Nazis will rise to power again. They are kind of not cool anymore. You should keep an eye on the Norwegians instead, they are really evil. :p

Ah yes, but what about other people attacking a person unprovoked? And then you have the whole deal of how to see if something is really "unprovoked"? I wish life and law were simple :p

Non-racial and non-discriminatory attacks are exempt. *nods* No purchase necessary. Standard restrictions apply. Not valid in Hawaii or Alaska.

1- Yes, they should have their spines punctured so they couldn't move ever again.

2- And yet I don't see anyone here going "Germans are teh evil" as they go "Moslems are teh evil" when this kind of shit has people who CALL THEMSELVES Muslim as the perpetrators.

That's because there IS a group... neo-Nazis. We have our group to label as 'teh ebil', therefore the lynch mob is placated. :)

1- Yes, they should have their spines punctured so they couldn't move ever again.

2- And yet I don't see anyone here going "Germans are teh evil" as they go "Moslems are teh evil" when this kind of shit has people who CALL THEMSELVES Muslim as the perpetrators.

One way or the other these scum present a threat to all the world, Europe especially, we need to take action against them, use the lessons we learnt at the price of fifty million casulties. We've got to hold together and stop them from corrupting our continent like they did seventy years ago. If we don't? Well just look at what happens when you don't stand up to Nazis in any WWII book.

Heheh the racist threat to the world? Come on theres not enough of them, and besides they have very low sperm counts you know!

I looked around and couldn't find anything, so I don't know if this is old or not. But I saw this in the newspaper the other day and was horrified.

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,22813376-5012777,00.html



If you were in her situation would you have tried to intervene? I know I would have.

Yes, I would have. And I'm not a 17 year old girl. Win or lose, they would all have very identifiable marks. *nod* :mad:

Yes, I would have. And I'm not a 17 year old girl. Win or lose, they would all have very identifiable marks. *nod* :mad:

You're like Zorro in many ways. You leave very identifiable marks, and you're hated by the rulers of California.

You're like Zorro in many ways. You leave very identifiable marks, and you're hated by the rulers of California.

You leave one cow with intestinal discomfort in one government office, and you're marked for life. :rolleyes:

If you were in her situation would you have tried to intervene?

It is better to die for the others, than live for yourself.

If you were in her situation would you have tried to intervene? I know I would have.

I would have, too. I mean, they were picking on a little kid! As for the people who just stood on their balconies and watched -- what kind of scum are they?

It reminds me of 2 things (sorry for the long stories, but they explain what my mindset is):

1) The Kitty Genovese murder in NYC back in the 1970s. Kitty Genovese was attacked, beaten, and ultimately stabbed to death by a stranger on the street in a residential neighbhorhood in Queens. The attack, which took more than 45 minutes, happened in the middle of a block of apartment buildings. The investigation quickly revealed that numerous people in the apartments had witnessed the attack -- from start to finish -- and not one of them had called the police. When questioned, they all said, "I didn't want to get involved." Aside from the horror of what had happened to Ms. Genovese, that (lack of) response and that attitude from the surrounding people shocked NYC and the US so badly that, out of all of NYC's annual murders, it put the Kitty Genovese killing into the history books. It also led to a several-year slew of books, movies, tv dramas and studies about a society coming apart at the seams and devolving into an "every man for himself" attitude. To this day, the people who remember Kitty Genovese -- even us who had nothing at all to do with it -- feel kind of sick in our stomaches whenever we think about it. It's a feeling of shame.

2) A personal experience of my own: Evening rush hour commute on the E train from Manhattan to Queens, early 1990s. The train crowded to the point of unwanted intimacy. August. No air conditioning. Everyone suffering. One guy making jokes to try to lighten the mood -- kind of funny, kind of annoying. Suddenly, an obviously drunk guy, more than twice the size of the joker, attacks the joker. Without any warning, just launches himself at the joker, clamps his hands around his throat and starts strangling him. The crowd parts as far as it can, and I find myself standing right there, watching this guy strangle this other guy -- whose face is turning purple now -- and seeing that nobody is doing anything, and nobody looks like they're going to.

And I kind of just snapped. I remember pointing at three guys and shouting at them to break this up, to pull the attacker off. They were in shock -- they stared at me, wide-eyed, for half a second, and then did as I said. They got the attacker off and pushed him into a seat, and the joker was left in another seat, gasping for breath. For a minute or two, it seemed to be over. Then the drunk decided otherwise, and lunged at the joker again, and that's when I did the craziest thing I've ever done -- but I was really pissed off.

I stepped in front of the lunging drunk (and I was even smaller than the guy he'd been choking, plus I'm a girl) and yelled, "Sit your ass back down! You've caused enough trouble. If you want to kill this guy, you wait till the next station, take him off the train, and kill him on the platform -- but you are not going to kill him on this train because I'm not in the mood for it!" (I remember the words I said, because it was almost like an out of body experience.) And that seemed to confuse him a bit, because he just blinked at me a couple of times and then sat back down. And that was the end until I got off the train myself.

But for years -- to this day -- the part that stands out the most for me, the part that still bothers me the most, is that I had to be the leader in that episode. That no one else had the presence of mind to step up and do the right thing. I can't shake the certainty that if I had not been there to get those three guys to break up the attack, that drunk would have strangled that joker to death while all those people just stood there and watched.

I don't care if they're afraid or they're shocked or what the excuse is. People who would just stand there and watch and do nothing -- not shout, not throw things, not call the police -- while another person is brutalized -- while a little child is bullied by a gang and a young woman is attacked and cut up -- they're not real people in my eyes. They're somehow less than human. That thing with the drunk on the subway was one of the things that made me leave NYC in the end. I couldn't stand to be surrounded by these cowards, these sheep. I knew when I saw them standing and staring, that I really was all alone on the streets, that I would have no one to turn to, no place to find help, if I ever got into trouble. Being surrounded by these losers increased my distrust factor so much, I finally gave up and left.

These neo-nazis deserve aggravated assault convictions with sentences upward of 20 years without parole for what they did to that girl. The neighbors who did nothing, the authorities that are complicit in tolerating this violence, deserve even worse. They deserve to be pilloried 100 times worse than NYC and New Yorkers were for their shameful failure to stand up for Kitty Genovese. The German media should be raking them over the coals, daily, forever. They should marked as the pop culture face of everything that is wrong in Germany, everything that threatens German society, everything that hints of the crimes, atrocities and failures of Germany's past, everything Germany never wants to be again. They should be made to feel the shame of what they did, or didn't do, and that shame should be so deep that even Germans who weren't there should feel ashamed that any Germans were involved at all.

If everyone really is on their own, if there is no "us," no sense that the person being hurt is one of ours (even if "ours" just means "fellow living being") and we have do something about it, then there can be no society.

You can always trust neo-nazis to be neo-nazis. You can always rely on them to be violent, hateful, vicious bastards and criminals, and you can adjust your behavior around them accordingly. But these so-called law-abiding citizens who won't even call the police when they see a woman being attacked, who will stand there and watch instead -- what can you trust them for? Eh? They terrify -- and disgust -- me more than a whole Nazi Party would.

I would have intervened. Despite being a scrawny Jew with little chance against them, I would have intervened. I think I would have pointed out the fact that I was Jewish, gotten them to focus on me, then ran like hell.

Personally I've always wanted to show a true bonified nazi a picture that says "Follow Your Leader" with a gun in Hitler's mouth.....

Oh and I would have intervened... I've always stood up against people getting picked on, even though I've gotten suspended twice back in my high school days as a result. Sad how the school tries to teach you NOT to intervene when a smaller, nerdy friend is being beaten up by three jocks.

By the way, the kid was six years old?! Why the hell were people just standing there watching?! Then they obviously pulled the young woman's pants down to cut her, and they were just still watching?! What the fuck is wrong with those people?! >:[

2) A personal experience of my own:*snip*
Way to kick ass without kicking ass!
While I'm still raging from this story, I'd like to point out that all the dismissive responses of "They're not a threat," "There's not enough of them to matter," "Feh, they're not cool, no one will join up with them," (which I hear in lots of threads, btw), sound an awful lot like the dismissals of the early Nazi movement back in the 1920s -- and look how that turned out, 20 years later.

It's not the few violent jackbooters we have to worry about. It's the number of "ordinary" people like those who watched this attack and did nothing, and the number of apologists who tolerate neo-nazis because they know their parents, that should concern us.

I don't think there's much threat of another big Nazi movement, but that's no reason not to prosecute neo-nazis to the full extent of every law they're foolish enough to break. That way, hopefully, there won't ever be a threat.

While I'm still raging from this story, I'd like to point out that all the dismissive responses of "They're not a threat," "There's not enough of them to matter," "Feh, they're not cool, no one will join up with them," (which I hear in lots of threads, btw), sound an awful lot like the dismissals of the early Nazi movement back in the 1920s -- and look how that turned out, 20 years later.

It's not the few violent jackbooters we have to worry about. It's the number of "ordinary" people like those who watched this attack and did nothing, and the number of apologists who tolerate neo-nazis because they know their parents, that should concern us.

I agree with Muravyets, I could never be in a situation like that and not do something. I think this way because of an experience I had on a bus. I was living in NYC at the time, and these two younger guys (I was a wee lil' lad back then) were bothering me, making fun of the fact that I was in a wheelchair, and poking the back of my head (which happens to be a tender area because I've had multiple brain surgeries).

Being little, I just ignored them, but it was excruciatingly humiliating and painful, and the bus was packed, so I know someone had to see these two numb skulls messing with the only cripple on the bus. It was then I told myself I could never allow something like that happen to others, because of how I know it feels.

I can't fathom how anyone could just watch and ignore something like that.

"well built young men",......yes dream on with your fantasies of beating them to pieces or achieving something in intervening. I mean they are only extremely violent, aggressive and strongly built.

This of course means that the girl should be even more lauded for mustering the courage to intervene. It takes a sort of selfless courage to do that.


As for those who lament neo-nazism will never find a home in europe again, I suppose this small clip will come as a shocker to you;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1_r7fCMZMk

&

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWZ8hBWNHKs&feature=related


Also the fact that neo-nazi's are carving out fiefs in eastern Germany where their presence in daily society is not questioned. As said, villages where all outsiders are frowned upon and everyone knows eachother, and so would not betray acts of of neo-nazi's out of a sense of loyalty to the community.

And I kind of just snapped. I remember pointing at three guys and shouting at them to break this up, to pull the attacker off. They were in shock -- they stared at me, wide-eyed, for half a second, and then did as I said. They got the attacker off and pushed him into a seat, and the joker was left in another seat, gasping for breath. For a minute or two, it seemed to be over. Then the drunk decided otherwise, and lunged at the joker again, and that's when I did the craziest thing I've ever done -- but I was really pissed off...snip..

Your experience isnt so unusual actually.
Once upon a time, I used to work at an all night restaruant.
We usually served the local bar rush. The bars would empty out, and the horde of drunken rednecks would pile into the booths, and get some slop into thier guts before heading home.

So, take one room of drunken rednecks, who are sobering up, and yet, still obnoxious, and add other rednecks, and quite often, you get a recipe for drunken violence and bravado.

Fights were fairly common.

Heres the thing:

As a guy, and a fairly big one, it was always a bad idea for me to intervene.
If I confront another guy who is becoming violent, it provokes an instant "dominant male monkey" response. In other words, theres a new male "challenging his territory".

Usually, it was much better for one of the little blonde waitresses to do it.
Using a voice that could have been thier grandmother, or thier third grade teacher, insisting they shut up and sit down immediately.

They would quite often back the huge drunken redneck down, and back into his seat, to eat his eggs, in shamed silence.
Men tend to obey women much better in a tense situation, especially when a certain tone of voice is used.

As for the nazi's...
It goes to show what incredible cowards they all are.
Wow, you can beat up and cut a small girl......now whos a tough guy?

While I'm still raging from this story, I'd like to point out that all the dismissive responses of "They're not a threat," "There's not enough of them to matter," "Feh, they're not cool, no one will join up with them," (which I hear in lots of threads, btw), sound an awful lot like the dismissals of the early Nazi movement back in the 1920s -- and look how that turned out, 20 years later.

It's not the few violent jackbooters we have to worry about. It's the number of "ordinary" people like those who watched this attack and did nothing, and the number of apologists who tolerate neo-nazis because they know their parents, that should concern us.

If the world focus on the Nazis, then the Norwegians will rise up and hit us in the back. And if we focus on the Norwegians, then the Nazis will kill us all. We´re doomed! :(

It is better to die for the others, than live for yourself.

No need to be so dramatic about it. :p

But I agree with the basic sentiment; As someone who is neither helpless nor innocent, I have an obligation to help people who are. *nod*

In my opinion, this situation has two problems that need to be looked at seperatly.

1. The neo-nazi street thugs that did this and commit other violent crimes like this. They should be arrested in an effort to help clean the streets of violence. These kind of people, whether "nigga" gangs, "Holmes" gangs, "Nazi' gangs ect ect ect have always and will always be a problem in our streets and should be dealt with harshly in order to create a safer community.

2. The national-socialist politicians in East-Germany who are not violent but are simply preaching an idealogy that I find is terrible to apply. But, let's look at the reasons why these people are gaining power. These guys get mostly into power in East-Germany, where there was a massive brain-drain and now has massive unemployment and low-skilled labor...thus, people tend to be bored, uneducated and looking for someone to blame for their problems, existant or non-existant. But there is also another reason. There are problems with immigration that ordinary (non-nazi people) see. The problem comes when the government or the mainstream parties don't want to deal with taboos of adressing multicultural problems and immigration problems, so they just kick it under the rug because it's too ugly to be dealt with. This leaves the ordinary man feeling like the government won't adress the issues he faces and his country faces, so he may find sympathy in the nation-socialists, who are the only ones who dare to admit that there are problems with multiculturalism and immigration.

THIS IS A PROBLEM. If non-extremist parties, the mainstream media and governments don't adress these issues, extremist ideas and extremist nazi-parties will continue to grow because it's the only place people will find debate on these issues and (incorrect) solutions.

That's my take on it.

In my opinion, this situation has two problems that need to be looked at seperatly.

1. The neo-nazi street thugs that did this and commit other violent crimes like this. They should be arrested in an effort to help clean the streets of violence. These kind of people, whether "nigga" gangs, "Holmes" gangs, "Nazi' gangs ect ect ect have always and will always be a problem in our streets and should be dealt with harshly in order to create a safer community.

2. The national-socialist politicians in East-Germany who are not violent but are simply preaching an idealogy that I find is terrible to apply. But, let's look at the reasons why these people are gaining power. These guys get mostly into power in East-Germany, where there was a massive brain-drain and now has massive unemployment and low-skilled labor...thus, people tend to be bored, uneducated and looking for someone to blame for their problems, existant or non-existant. But there is also another reason. There are problems with immigration that ordinary (non-nazi people) see. The problem comes when the government or the mainstream parties don't want to deal with taboos of adressing multicultural problems and immigration problems, so they just kick it under the rug because it's too ugly to be dealt with. This leaves the ordinary man feeling like the government won't adress the issues he faces and his country faces, so he may find sympathy in the nation-socialists, who are the only ones who dare to admit that there are problems with multiculturalism and immigration.

THIS IS A PROBLEM. If non-extremist parties, the mainstream media and governments don't adress these issues, extremist ideas and extremist nazi-parties will continue to grow because it's the only place people will find debate on these issues and (incorrect) solutions.

That's my take on it.

So... would you have intervened?

In my opinion, this situation has two problems that need to be looked at seperatly.

1. The neo-nazi street thugs that did this and commit other violent crimes like this. They should be arrested in an effort to help clean the streets of violence. These kind of people, whether "nigga" gangs, "Holmes" gangs, "Nazi' gangs ect ect ect have always and will always be a problem in our streets and should be dealt with harshly in order to create a safer community.

2. The national-socialist politicians in East-Germany who are not violent but are simply preaching an idealogy that I find is terrible to apply. But, let's look at the reasons why these people are gaining power. These guys get mostly into power in East-Germany, where there was a massive brain-drain and now has massive unemployment and low-skilled labor...thus, people tend to be bored, uneducated and looking for someone to blame for their problems, existant or non-existant. But there is also another reason. There are problems with immigration that ordinary (non-nazi people) see. The problem comes when the government or the mainstream parties don't want to deal with taboos of adressing multicultural problems and immigration problems, so they just kick it under the rug because it's too ugly to be dealt with. This leaves the ordinary man feeling like the government won't adress the issues he faces and his country faces, so he may find sympathy in the nation-socialists, who are the only ones who dare to admit that there are problems with multiculturalism and immigration.

THIS IS A PROBLEM. If non-extremist parties, the mainstream media and governments don't adress these issues, extremist ideas and extremist nazi-parties will continue to grow because it's the only place people will find debate on these issues and (incorrect) solutions.

That's my take on it.

The main focus of the thread is more that people just watched a girl get beaten up. That she was being beaten up by neo-nazis is really a side issue.

It's actually a very common phenomenon that people don't intervene. Everyone is afraid to get into trouble and hopes for someone else to take initative and intervene.

A personal experience of my own: Evening rush hour commute on the E train from Manhattan to Queens, early 1990s. The train crowded to the point of unwanted intimacy. August. No air conditioning. Everyone suffering. One guy making jokes to try to lighten the mood -- kind of funny, kind of annoying. Suddenly, an obviously drunk guy, more than twice the size of the joker, attacks the joker. Without any warning, just launches himself at the joker, clamps his hands around his throat and starts strangling him. The crowd parts as far as it can, and I find myself standing right there, watching this guy strangle this other guy -- whose face is turning purple now -- and seeing that nobody is doing anything, and nobody looks like they're going to.

And I kind of just snapped. I remember pointing at three guys and shouting at them to break this up, to pull the attacker off. They were in shock -- they stared at me, wide-eyed, for half a second, and then did as I said. They got the attacker off and pushed him into a seat, and the joker was left in another seat, gasping for breath. For a minute or two, it seemed to be over. Then the drunk decided otherwise, and lunged at the joker again, and that's when I did the craziest thing I've ever done -- but I was really pissed off.

I stepped in front of the lunging drunk (and I was even smaller than the guy he'd been choking, plus I'm a girl) and yelled, "Sit your ass back down! You've caused enough trouble. If you want to kill this guy, you wait till the next station, take him off the train, and kill him on the platform -- but you are not going to kill him on this train because I'm not in the mood for it!" (I remember the words I said, because it was almost like an out of body experience.) And that seemed to confuse him a bit, because he just blinked at me a couple of times and then sat back down. And that was the end until I got off the train myself.

Marry me! You're the Chun Li of the NSG! I tell you, you give Chuck Norris a run for his money! :D

So... would you have intervened?
First, I would have called the police. Sitting in my armchair safe with no knife wounds, I will say that I wouldn't have inervened because I value my life more than that of strangers. If it was in the heat of the moment, I don't know. I'd feel so much hate for people attacking children that it's possible the adreneline would cause me to rush in....but I can't say for certain.
The main focus of the thread is more that people just watched a girl get beaten up. That she was being beaten up by neo-nazis is really a side issue.
Well I disagree...this part of a much larger two part issue, which I outlined the post above.

Why attack the the many arms of the beast when you can focus on it's head?

I can't say if I would of done anything, I realize that I'm human and so the same brain stuff is in all our heads

I can't stand the type who say they would of done this and that because their usually full of shit when push come to shove (if only life was a video game)

But I agree with the basic sentiment; As someone who is neither helpless nor innocent, I have an obligation to help people who are. *nod*

:eek:

I know it's unrealistic but why don't we round them up and send them all to prison for being brainless nazis...

:eek:

I've instigated a fight or two. I'm no saint.

Here's an odd statistic; I've won every fight that involved me against multiple foes, and lost every one-on-one fight except one. :p

I'm talking real fights, not schoolboy roughhousing.

I know it's unrealistic but why don't we round them up and send them all to prison for being brainless nazis...
You can't send someone to prison for believing in Nation-Socialism.....and should you do that, you yourself would then became closer to their idealogy than you think....

Why attack the the many arms of the beast when you can focus on it's head?

Because if the locals are too apathetic to do anything about the arms, why should the leaders bother?

I know it's unrealistic but why don't we round them up and send them all to prison for being brainless nazis...

You can't send someone to prison for believing in Nation-Socialism.....and should you do that, you yourself would then became closer to their idealogy than you think....

I so rarely agree with you, but it's true. You can't round up and imprison the nazis, because that's what nazis do. :p

I've instigated a fight or two. I'm no saint.

Here's an odd statistic; I've won every fight that involved me against multiple foes, and lost every one-on-one fight except one. :p

I'm talking real fights, not schoolboy roughhousing.

Multiples against singles tend to pick immobilization and pummeling. One on ones have the cheap shot appearing more often. I suspect that is where you have picked up your iron testicles training. :p

I've instigated a fight or two. I'm no saint.

Neo-Nazi Goofballs?

Here's an odd statistic; I've won every fight that involved me against multiple foes, and lost every one-on-one fight except one. :p

ducking whilst being charged at from all sides?

Way to kick ass without kicking ass!


I don't think there's much threat of another big Nazi movement, but that's no reason not to prosecute neo-nazis to the full extent of every law they're foolish enough to break. That way, hopefully, there won't ever be a threat.
They're like termites or cockroaches. If you see one, that means there are already thousands hidden in your house. Root them out at every sign of them, no matter how small.

Your experience isnt so unusual actually.
Once upon a time, I used to work at an all night restaruant.
We usually served the local bar rush. The bars would empty out, and the horde of drunken rednecks would pile into the booths, and get some slop into thier guts before heading home.

So, take one room of drunken rednecks, who are sobering up, and yet, still obnoxious, and add other rednecks, and quite often, you get a recipe for drunken violence and bravado.

Fights were fairly common.

Heres the thing:

As a guy, and a fairly big one, it was always a bad idea for me to intervene.
If I confront another guy who is becoming violent, it provokes an instant "dominant male monkey" response. In other words, theres a new male "challenging his territory".

Usually, it was much better for one of the little blonde waitresses to do it.
Using a voice that could have been thier grandmother, or thier third grade teacher, insisting they shut up and sit down immediately.

They would quite often back the huge drunken redneck down, and back into his seat, to eat his eggs, in shamed silence.
Men tend to obey women much better in a tense situation, especially when a certain tone of voice is used.
Yes, I'm sure this was the case in my story. I suspect that in his drunken raging haze, his addled sloshy brain was thinking, "Mommy, is that you?"


As for the nazi's...
It goes to show what incredible cowards they all are.
Wow, you can beat up and cut a small girl......now whos a tough guy?
Exactly. Ball-less scum, everyone of them. Maybe that's why I have so little respect for those who kowtow to them out of fear. To be afraid of cowards -- how low is that?

They're like termites or cockroaches. If you see one, that means there are already thousands hidden in your house. Root them out at every sign of them, no matter how small.

a Hutu supporter I presume?

It's actually a very common phenomenon that people don't intervene. Everyone is afraid to get into trouble and hopes for someone else to take initative and intervene.

And that's how totalitarianism happens. It's also how total lawlessness and public corruption happen. If we won't clean up our own house, who do we think will do it for us? Sure, not everyone can be a superhero -- and not everyone has to be -- but it doesn't take much initiative to call the cops.

I so rarely agree with you, but it's true. You can't round up and imprison the nazis, because that's what nazis do. :p

I know I know :p but the violent ones they deserve it :D

Marry me! You're the Chun Li of the NSG! I tell you, you give Chuck Norris a run for his money! :D
Haha! Thanks, sweetie. :fluffle:

But seriously, I could have gotten so horribly mangled so easily. It's just when I get really pissed off, I tend to see only the thing that is pissing me off and not the peripheral considerations including the risks to myself, like a kind of tunnel vision of my judgment. As a hospital employee who was trying to sort out a clerical mistake that really pissed me off just yesterday said, "I can see you're a proactive person." Which I guess is one way to put it. ;)

1- Yes, they should have their spines punctured so they couldn't move ever again.

2- And yet I don't see anyone here going "Germans are teh evil" as they go "Moslems are teh evil" when this kind of shit has people who CALL THEMSELVES Muslim as the perpetrators.

Must you bring Islam into every thread? I mean I am getting tired of being reminded of what it was like 100 years ago, when this sort of argument was actually original in some respects.

a Hutu supporter I presume?

And that's kind of a ridiculous and needlessly provocative thing to say.

Did I suggest rounding up neo-nazis and killing them? My entire argument has been that people need to stand up to them and that the media should be outing them and exposing them, their activities and their agendas, and that the law should be treating them seriously, not standing by complicitly. And that the public should not tolerate public officials being complicit in letting neo-nazis escape prosecution for their crimes because of personal considerations, which counts as political corruption considering German law about nazi activities. I also remind you that I specifically stated that I think these neo-nazis deserve jail sentences of at least 20 years for the specific crime of assault they committed. That is a far cry from the African tribal genocides your remark refers to.

I fail to see how advocating that these groups not be allowed to spread in secrecy through a society is in anyway analogous to calling for slaughtering them. In other words, I fail to see how demanding that people recognize the presence of these groups in society and guard against them gaining influence and power can be likened to the kind of crime that they themselves would commit.

Actually, the more I think about your little off-hand remark, the more insulted I am by it, so I'm going to stop thinking about it.

I looked around and couldn't find anything, so I don't know if this is old or not. But I saw this in the newspaper the other day and was horrified.

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,22813376-5012777,00.html



If you were in her situation would you have tried to intervene? I know I would have.

I'd certainly like to think I would have done. I can't say I would simply because I've never been a situation like that, but I'd like to think so. There's a difference between bullying an adult and a kid; both a failry abhorrent, but a six year old girl is beyond the pale.

I hope to god I would have been able to intervene in a situation like that, but I can't know for sure because I've never been in a situation like that. Honestly, I hope I never have to be in a situation like that.

Although if you count calling the police as intervening, then I know I could intervene.

There were 4 of them and the girl got away? Must have some incompetent fools.

There were 4 of them and the girl got away? Must have some incompetent fools.

They're Neo-Nazis...given that they subscribe to one of the most losing ideologies ever (hell, they couldn't even get it to work in Germany for more than 11 years), you're not bound to be the most competent around. Nazism is the haven for the ignorant and inept...of course, that's obviously a good thing, especially for a situation like this.

Must you bring Islam into every thread? I mean I am getting tired of being reminded of what it was like 100 years ago, when this sort of argument was actually original in some respects.

Not in EVERY thread, but that's essentially a way to point out to Myrmi et al. that "look, we white people screw up too".

Not in EVERY thread, but that's essentially a way to point out to Myrmi et al. that "look, we white people screw up too".

Well I don't think that he believes all Muslims are terrorists, I reckon you just think he does.

Pushing around a six year old who doesn't know any better, or about any of the ideologies of neo-nazis in the first place? That's just sad...

There were 4 of them and the girl got away? Must have some incompetent fools.

When you're in danger, it's amazing what the human body is capable of.

Want to see how cool Neo-Nazi skin heads are?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2INN51z-Slg

The nazis are evil just like the communists. They are both so bad I cannot compare them, those people deserve a long timer in "man rape central" or as some call it prison.

I thought the Nazi party was illegal in Germany?

Do you know who else implemented forced sterilization? That's right. Hitler.

That's nothing short of fighting fire with fire. :D

Here's a thought, if a neo-Nazi attacks a person unprovoked, they should have their reproductive rights taken away. ie: forced sterilisation.

Do you know who else implemented forced sterilization? That's right. Hitler.

Let it be known that Hitler was not all bad. :D

Can't stand these skinheads they give nazi's a bad name all peope know about them these days is negative(true,false or exaggerated)...this is unfortunate because the negative is what the teenagers learn. Then the morons play it out.

uhm, i think the Nazis give the Nazis a bad name, these teenagers don't really have to do much to accomplish that. The real oldschool Nazis kinda set the bar pretty high..........

Do you know who else implemented forced sterilization? That's right. Hitler.

Let it be known that Hitler was not all bad. :D

Can't stand these skinheads they give nazi's a bad name all peope know about them these days is negative(true,false or exaggerated)...this is unfortunate because the negative is what the teenagers learn. Then the morons play it out.

I thought the Nazi party was illegal in Germany?
It is. This is a National Democratic Party, that has national-socialist tendancies...it is not the NSDAP, but just shares some of it's views. Therefore it's legal. Anyway, if you want to fight the rise of nazi parties, deal with the immigration issue! That's what makes alot of people vote for these parties. Making them illegal or saying how bad they are will not change a damn thing.
Because if the locals are too apathetic to do anything about the arms, why should the leaders bother?
Not talking about locals...talking about government. Deal with the problems that are giving rise to the popularity of nazi parties, instead of ignoring them because discussing the failings of multiculturalism is taboo.

I so rarely agree with you, but it's true.
How unfortunate for you, because everything I say happens to always be true. :p
You can't round up and imprison the nazis, because that's what nazis do. :p
True that.

Do you know who else implemented forced sterilization? That's right. Hitler.

Precisely. They idolise what he stood for, so why not give them the full experience? ;)

Muryavets, I urge caution. Be careful you don't let paranoia grab you in its trap. That's not to say I disagree with you or with what you suggest...merely that I want you to remember to be sensible about it. You're a great person, so I know you will be so long as someone reminds you when you need it. We all need a reminder once in a while.

I've got a question: is the scar permanent? Is she going to be stuck with the Nazi swastika on her hip for the rest of her life? And if so, would she be prosecuted under German law for having it if she ever somehow showed it in public? (If so, that'd be pretty fucking sick.)

Also, non-intervention happens almost every time. You guys think it's bad enough to be the one having to rally people to intervene? TRY BEING THE PERSON BEING ATTACKED. I have TWICE when I lived in California. I believe I've mentioned being jumped by gangs before? (They were racist gangs...I believe one was Hispanic and the other black. Both gangs all carried knives, thankfully, rather than firearms, but I think that's only because they were just a little older than I was.) What I don't normally mention--and I now realize I should--is that there were bystanders both times who didn't do a damned thing.

I was lucky to escape both times with my body intact. The first time I was able to just run away, but the second time I had to fight them off and THEN run away...I was VERY lucky to only receive a nasty laceration on my left arm(the scar of which is still there today.)

But would I have intervened? Absolutely. I'm not letting any fucker attack ANYONE. I don't care who you are, what your purpose is, if you attack someone you're answering to ME. (That's one of the smaller reasons to go into the Navy I've never mentioned before...to net the skills I can use in such instances.) Sure, I might have a bit of a Don Quixote complex, but I'd much rather have that than be a coward who doesn't intervene when they should.

Really, we should start fining people when they don't intervene in instances like this. And I do mean literally fine them...probably a hundred bucks a person per instance. That sound reasonable?

All that said, the attackers ought to go into a rehabilitation program to help them rather than just being thrown in jail. I know people will probably disagree with me but I'd rather see them change, grow, and become productive members of society rather than just rotting in jail becoming even angrier. I seem to recall one Adolf Hitler writing Mein Kampf while in jail allowing his anger issues to stew and push him beyond the brink, and that's just one amongst probably hundreds of thousands of examples across the world of how bad plain old imprisonment really is.

Muryavets, I urge caution. Be careful you don't let paranoia grab you in its trap. That's not to say I disagree with you or with what you suggest...merely that I want you to remember to be sensible about it. You're a great person, so I know you will be so long as someone reminds you when you need it. We all need a reminder once in a while.

I've got a question: is the scar permanent? Is she going to be stuck with the Nazi swastika on her hip for the rest of her life? And if so, would she be prosecuted under German law for having it if she ever somehow showed it in public? (If so, that'd be pretty fucking sick.)

Also, non-intervention happens almost every time. You guys think it's bad enough to be the one having to rally people to intervene? TRY BEING THE PERSON BEING ATTACKED. I have TWICE when I lived in California. I believe I've mentioned being jumped by gangs before? (They were racist gangs...I believe one was Hispanic and the other black. Both gangs all carried knives, thankfully, rather than firearms, but I think that's only because they were just a little older than I was.) What I don't normally mention--and I now realize I should--is that there were bystanders both times who didn't do a damned thing.

I was lucky to escape both times with my body intact. The first time I was able to just run away, but the second time I had to fight them off and THEN run away...I was VERY lucky to only receive a nasty laceration on my left arm(the scar of which is still there today.)

But would I have intervened? Absolutely. I'm not letting any fucker attack ANYONE. I don't care who you are, what your purpose is, if you attack someone you're answering to ME. (That's one of the smaller reasons to go into the Navy I've never mentioned before...to net the skills I can use in such instances.) Sure, I might have a bit of a Don Quixote complex, but I'd much rather have that than be a coward who doesn't intervene when they should.

Really, we should start fining people when they don't intervene in instances like this. And I do mean literally fine them...probably a hundred bucks a person per instance. That sound reasonable?

All that said, the attackers ought to go into a rehabilitation program to help them rather than just being thrown in jail. I know people will probably disagree with me but I'd rather see them change, grow, and become productive members of society rather than just rotting in jail becoming even angrier. I seem to recall one Adolf Hitler writing Mein Kampf while in jail allowing his anger issues to stew and push him beyond the brink, and that's just one amongst probably hundreds of thousands of examples across the world of how bad plain old imprisonment really is.


There's many fallacies that are created in fining people who do not "jump" into action and intervene in situations such as this.

For example, sometimes in an attack, it's hard to distinguish who is the assailant, and who is the victim, because sometimes the victim gets the upper hand. So, in theory, you could end up having people jump in a fight and end up beating up on the person who is really the victim.

Also, people are within their right to sue people who do intervene in a situation, but unintentionally make the matter worse. So now what you're saying is that people are damned if they do, and damned if they don't. If they don't intervene, they will be fined by the government, but if they do intervene, then they run the risk of being sued by the person that they were originally intervening on their behalf.

And if you take away the right of the victim to sue a helping vigilente who ended up making things worse for the victim, then you give bystanders a get out of jail free card to do however and whatever they please when jumping into a situation that calls for careful intuition and prudent activity.

It is simply a flawed, however noble, concept.

Multiples against singles tend to pick immobilization and pummeling. One on ones have the cheap shot appearing more often. I suspect that is where you have picked up your iron testicles training. :p

Let's just say that I can take a direct hit or two and keep fighting. :p

Neo-Nazi Goofballs?

Yep, I'm the world's only neo-nazi hispanic. :p



ducking whilst being charged at from all sides?

That doesn't work nearly as often as cartoons have led me to believe. :(

There's many fallacies that are created in fining people who do not "jump" into action and intervene in situations such as this.

For example, sometimes in an attack, it's hard to distinguish who is the assailant, and who is the victim, because sometimes the victim gets the upper hand. So, in theory, you could end up having people jump in a fight and end up beating up on the person who is really the victim.

Also, people are within their right to sue people who do intervene in a situation, but unintentionally make the matter worse. So now what you're saying is that people are damned if they do, and damned if they don't. If they don't intervene, they will be fined by the government, but if they do intervene, then they run the risk of being sued by the person that they were originally intervening on their behalf.

And if you take away the right of the victim to sue a helping vigilente who ended up making things worse for the victim, then you give bystanders a get out of jail free card to do however and whatever they please when jumping into a situation that calls for careful intuition and prudent activity.

It is simply a flawed, however noble, concept.

Thank you. I knew it couldn't possibly be that simple, hence why I threw it out hoping someone would do exactly what you just did.

So how would we go about getting people to intervene more? Perhaps education? Use the schools to teach kids that intervention to stop attacks/what have you(please note I am saying stop, not help one side or the other, just in case something like exactly what you describe happens) is the right thing to do? Would that work?

I've got a question: is the scar permanent? Is she going to be stuck with the Nazi swastika on her hip for the rest of her life? And if so, would she be prosecuted under German law for having it if she ever somehow showed it in public? (If so, that'd be pretty fucking sick.)
There is a simple way of getting rid of it and it would be to remove the patch of skin and make it look like a segment of scar tissue with no discernible appearance.

There is a simple way of getting rid of it and it would be to remove the patch of skin and make it look like a segment of scar tissue with no discernible appearance.

Good. I'm glad. She shouldn't have to live with a symbol like that carved upon her.

I hope she'll be okay after all of this, and that she doesn't allow herself to succumb to feelings of revenge and/or depression.

Thank you. I knew it couldn't possibly be that simple, hence why I threw it out hoping someone would do exactly what you just did.

So how would we go about getting people to intervene more? Perhaps education? Use the schools to teach kids that intervention to stop attacks/what have you(please note I am saying stop, not help one side or the other, just in case something like exactly what you describe happens) is the right thing to do? Would that work?

I think that would be a wonderful step in the right direction.

But I think the real issue at heart here, where all the non-active bystanders come into play, is a direct result of fear. We must alleviate the fear that grips us on a daily basis, and learn somehow that the risk of being a bystander is greater than the risk of being a singular hero.

I thought the Nazi party was illegal in Germany?There are NeoNazi parties that are not (yet) forbidden and that even have some seats in state parliaments in eastern Germany. In recent years the far right parties and groups have tried to concert their efforts. In hindsight the reunification of Germany might not have been such a brilliant idea after all. The failure of the governments since the unification to address certain issues has its consequences now.

Good. I'm glad. She shouldn't have to live with a symbol like that carved upon her.

I hope she'll be okay after all of this, and that she doesn't allow herself to succumb to feelings of revenge and/or depression.

I only know because I had a birthmark the size of a quarter on my left temple that I got remove. There's just a bit of scar tissue now. No one ever notices unless they look closely. :) So it would be possible for the girl to get the mark remove from her body.

I only know because I had a birthmark the size of a quarter on my left temple that I got remove. There's just a bit of scar tissue now. No one ever notices unless they look closely. :) So it would be possible for the girl to get the mark remove from her body.

they might be able to partially remove the physical mark left behind, but not the mental one.

Well, I'm a bug guy, so I could have kicked the Nazi's @$$ back to the Stone age (where their political ideals come from).

Yep, I'm the world's only neo-nazi hispanic. :p

Not the only one.
I have a friend who is hispanic, who makes the same joke all the time.
I think when it comes from him, its so very funny.
See folks?
Theres nothing wrong with good, clean racial humor, when its in the proper context.





That doesn't work nearly as often as cartoons have led me to believe.

Sheesh, tell that to me and the Acme company.....

I looked around and couldn't find anything, so I don't know if this is old or not. But I saw this in the newspaper the other day and was horrified.

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,22813376-5012777,00.html



If you were in her situation would you have tried to intervene? I know I would have.

Vereinigheit war gut für Ost-Deutschland.

But there is also another reason. There are problems with immigration that ordinary (non-nazi people) see. The problem comes when the government or the mainstream parties don't want to deal with taboos of adressing multicultural problems and immigration problems, so they just kick it under the rug because it's too ugly to be dealt with. This leaves the ordinary man feeling like the government won't adress the issues he faces and his country faces, so he may find sympathy in the nation-socialists, who are the only ones who dare to admit that there are problems with multiculturalism and immigration.
Care to tell me how many immigrants live in East German villages? Or indeed the state of Saxony?

It's a nice idea and all, but it just doesn't hold. There are no immigrants in these places, these skinheads have probably never seen a black man, or an Indian or whatever. They're being told there are problems with coexisting (just like you're trying to tell us right now) and they act on it. Afterall, it's not like anyone can actually see "multiculturalism" or its failure by themselves.

But as soon as they do see someone foreign, you know what happens.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,502187,00.html

Not talking about locals...talking about government. Deal with the problems that are giving rise to the popularity of nazi parties, instead of ignoring them because discussing the failings of multiculturalism is taboo.


Look. What the locals want, if its a strong enough groundswell, the government does, assuming of course a representative government. Maybe in some screwball way, but it does.

If the locals don't care, neither will the government.

Let's just say that I can take a direct hit or two and keep fighting. :p

Shall I put that to the test I wonder? If blunt trauma will not work, I wonder how effective piercing damage will be. :p

Muryavets, I urge caution. Be careful you don't let paranoia grab you in its trap. That's not to say I disagree with you or with what you suggest...merely that I want you to remember to be sensible about it. You're a great person, so I know you will be so long as someone reminds you when you need it. We all need a reminder once in a while.
Huh? Which part of my rants and stories are you referring to?

I've got a question: is the scar permanent? Is she going to be stuck with the Nazi swastika on her hip for the rest of her life? And if so, would she be prosecuted under German law for having it if she ever somehow showed it in public? (If so, that'd be pretty fucking sick.)
It can be fixed, but either way, I'm going to hope Germany is more enlightened than Saudi Arabia and not punish the victim.

Also, non-intervention happens almost every time. You guys think it's bad enough to be the one having to rally people to intervene? TRY BEING THE PERSON BEING ATTACKED. I have TWICE when I lived in California. I believe I've mentioned being jumped by gangs before? (They were racist gangs...I believe one was Hispanic and the other black. Both gangs all carried knives, thankfully, rather than firearms, but I think that's only because they were just a little older than I was.) What I don't normally mention--and I now realize I should--is that there were bystanders both times who didn't do a damned thing.

I was lucky to escape both times with my body intact. The first time I was able to just run away, but the second time I had to fight them off and THEN run away...I was VERY lucky to only receive a nasty laceration on my left arm(the scar of which is still there today.)
I'm sorry you had to face such violence, and I'm glad you were able to escape, but yes, I've seen it many times -- this unwillingness of other people to intervene. A lot of times, like in my subway story, it can be shock -- people's responses are kind of frozen by what they see happening -- but I confess I don't have much sympathy for that, even though I understand it. A lot of other times, however, it's either apathy or fear -- and that I have even less patience for.

But would I have intervened? Absolutely. I'm not letting any fucker attack ANYONE. I don't care who you are, what your purpose is, if you attack someone you're answering to ME. (That's one of the smaller reasons to go into the Navy I've never mentioned before...to net the skills I can use in such instances.) Sure, I might have a bit of a Don Quixote complex, but I'd much rather have that than be a coward who doesn't intervene when they should.
One of my favorite quotes:

"It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it's better still to be a live lion, and usually easier."

Meaning that if we want to be a certain kind of person, who lives a certain kind of way, we have to think about it and realize that the obvious approach is not the only one. People wonder what they would do in certain situation, and it's true, we can't know until it happens, but we can prepare by planning, such as by being ready to call the police anywhere, if needed, etc.

Really, we should start fining people when they don't intervene in instances like this. And I do mean literally fine them...probably a hundred bucks a person per instance. That sound reasonable?
I don't know how I feel about that. I'm kind of against "Good Samaritan" laws which would punish people for not being brave. On the other hand, even though I might think the law shouldn't punish them, I have no problem with society punishing them -- by ridiculing or shunning them or otherwise expressing their disapproval.

All that said, the attackers ought to go into a rehabilitation program to help them rather than just being thrown in jail. I know people will probably disagree with me but I'd rather see them change, grow, and become productive members of society rather than just rotting in jail becoming even angrier. I seem to recall one Adolf Hitler writing Mein Kampf while in jail allowing his anger issues to stew and push him beyond the brink, and that's just one amongst probably hundreds of thousands of examples across the world of how bad plain old imprisonment really is.
This is a good point. On the other hand, I personally don't believe such people want to be rehabilitated. You can't change a person's mind by force. Just as you can't make a brave person out of a coward, so you can't make a progressive out of a nazi. It has to do with the way they think, the way their minds are wired. Whether or not they are actual members of a nazi group, they will always be what they are, under the surface.

(Just like I'll always be a person who gets really pissed off and then gets really "proactive" about it. ;) )

How could you not come to the aid of a 6 year old?

I'm glad the 17 year old was not hurt worse than that...it was a definite possibility, and a horrible thing to face as it was.

The fact that people were watching from their balconies, doing nothing while these children were victimised is extremely disturbing.

Had it been an adult facing this group...I might have hesitated, I'll admit it. But I could not, under any circumstances, not intervene with a child involved.

Huh? Which part of my rants and stories are you referring to?
Mainly the way you kept talking about "ferreting out Neo-Nazis" and the like.


It can be fixed, but either way, I'm going to hope Germany is more enlightened than Saudi Arabia and not punish the victim.

Indeed.

I'm sorry you had to face such violence, and I'm glad you were able to escape, but yes, I've seen it many times -- this unwillingness of other people to intervene. A lot of times, like in my subway story, it can be shock -- people's responses are kind of frozen by what they see happening -- but I confess I don't have much sympathy for that, even though I understand it. A lot of other times, however, it's either apathy or fear -- and that I have even less patience for.
I don't have much sympathy or patience for it either, but I don't think it's fair to blame them directly so much as blame society for creating the fear that keeps them from intervening. Furthermore, we should work to change their behavior rather than just condemn them for it and toss them away.

I know you weren't advocating that, but it needed to be said nonetheless for those that might.


One of my favorite quotes:

"It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it's better still to be a live lion, and usually easier."

Meaning that if we want to be a certain kind of person, who lives a certain kind of way, we have to think about it and realize that the obvious approach is not the only one. People wonder what they would do in certain situation, and it's true, we can't know until it happens, but we can prepare by planning, such as by being ready to call the police anywhere, if needed, etc.

I know. By saying they'll have to answer to me, I don't mean I'll be trying to fight them all the time despite how I made it sound. I mean that I'll be doing something to stop them, no matter what that something is. Sometimes it might be direct intervention, other times calling the police and an ambulance, and so on and so forth.

I don't know how I feel about that. I'm kind of against "Good Samaritan" laws which would punish people for not being brave. On the other hand, even though I might think the law shouldn't punish them, I have no problem with society punishing them -- by ridiculing or shunning them or otherwise expressing their disapproval.

True, and as covered earlier the fining itself would be extremely difficult to implement.

But in order for society to shame them, it must first come to a point where such an action is truly seen as shameful, and sadly I don't think it is yet.

This is a good point. On the other hand, I personally don't believe such people want to be rehabilitated. You can't change a person's mind by force. Just as you can't make a brave person out of a coward, so you can't make a progressive out of a nazi. It has to do with the way they think, the way their minds are wired. Whether or not they are actual members of a nazi group, they will always be what they are, under the surface.

(Just like I'll always be a person who gets really pissed off and then gets really "proactive" about it. ;) )

I disagree entirely. Human beings have a great capacity for learning, changing, and so on and so forth. Now, the kind of rehabilitation I'm talking about is not forced on them, because that doesn't work as you said. It should work with them, to show them why they are wrong in a way they will admit to, and so on and so forth. The idea is to make them willing to change.

Thing is, most people lump willingness to change and ability to change together. They see a lot of people who REFUSE to change and then make the incorrect leap of logic that they CANNOT change, when in fact they COULD. It's just that they CHOOSE not to. Thus, rehabilitation should focus on ways of getting people to choose to change, and then helping them from there.

People aren't hardwired, after all. We all have hopes and dreams, thoughts and fantasies and we love life in our own way. We're all human, and it's something a lot of people tend to forget. People look at others as though they were two-dimensional cardboard cutouts rather than truly being human like themselves, and that needs to change.

Shall I put that to the test I wonder? If blunt trauma will not work, I wonder how effective piercing damage will be. :p

:eek:

:(

I looked around and couldn't find anything, so I don't know if this is old or not. But I saw this in the newspaper the other day and was horrified.

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,22813376-5012777,00.html



If you were in her situation would you have tried to intervene? I know I would have.It's relatively recent. I find it despicable that people were watching from their windows, not doing anything, according to the girl.

Vereinigheit war gut für Ost-Deutschland.

Echt? Also, die meisten Ostdeutschen sind da anderer Meinung... :rolleyes:

Care to tell me how many immigrants live in East German villages? Or indeed the state of Saxony?

It's a nice idea and all, but it just doesn't hold. There are no immigrants in these places, these skinheads have probably never seen a black man, or an Indian or whatever. They're being told there are problems with coexisting (just like you're trying to tell us right now) and they act on it. Afterall, it's not like anyone can actually see "multiculturalism" or its failure by themselves.

But as soon as they do see someone foreign, you know what happens.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,502187,00.html
BTU Cottbus has a 40% foreign student body, and the largest groups that comprise that are Chinese, Indian, and the Africans (currently, Cameroonians are the largest group of those). Cottbus still has a teeming Neo Nazi community; they have no qualms walking out in the open with their Thor Steinar brand clothing.

BTU Cottbus has a 40% foreign student body, and the largest groups that comprise that are Chinese, Indian, and the Africans (currently, Cameroonians are the largest group of those). Cottbus still has a teeming Neo Nazi community; they have no qualms walking out in the open with their Thor Steinar brand clothing.

If I think back to my days at the HTWK Leipzig, that was mostly because East Germans prefer going to universities in the West, and West Germans rarely even consider going to Eastern universities in the first place...

Has that changed at all by now?

If I think back to my days at the HTWK Leipzig, that was mostly because East Germans prefer going to universities in the West, and West Germans rarely even consider going to Eastern universities in the first place...

Has that changed at all by now?I doubt it. Cottbus might be a bit of an exception because West Berliners are technically West Germans and there's not enough space in Berlin for all the aspiring Architects, so many go to Cottbus.

Thing is, stories like this really should just be ignored, it only got in the news because its a pretty young girl, stuff like this happens all the time and never gets reported. I kind of feel bad for replying to this, and giving this type of story any attention, but hey. I can't see myself reacting to this, I wouldnt put my own life on the line for one of a stranger, I would have called the police though.

Thing is, stories like this really should just be ignored, it only got in the news because its a pretty young girl, stuff like this happens all the time and never gets reported. I kind of feel bad for replying to this, and giving this type of story any attention, but hey. I can't see myself reacting to this, I wouldnt put my own life on the line for one of a stranger, I would have called the police though.

What will ignoring it achieve?

Mainly the way you kept talking about "ferreting out Neo-Nazis" and the like.
I didn't say "ferret" out. I said "root" out, as in where they have set down roots. Just like, if you see some slight evidence of termite activity in your house, you would be a fool not to look to see how badly you've been infested and to take steps to stop the infestation from spreading, so too if people see neo-nazi gangs attacking people in their streets, if they see neo-nazi parties angling for political power in their government, etc., they would be fools not to look to see how badly their society has become infested with this ideology and take the appropriate steps to stop them from gaining power. This is because, like termites who will eventually destroy your house, neo-nazis (and similar extremists) will eventually tear their society apart.

Against ideologies, the most effective weapon is exposure. Such outlawed groups attempting to regain access to power depend on secrecy in things like their intergroup networks and their financing sources. They depend on being able to control the flow of information about themselves, so they can control their public image. They must not be allowed to do so. They must not be allowed to spread their propaganda and their intimidation tactics unchallenged.

Indeed.

I don't have much sympathy or patience for it either, but I don't think it's fair to blame them directly so much as blame society for creating the fear that keeps them from intervening. Furthermore, we should work to change their behavior rather than just condemn them for it and toss them away.

I know you weren't advocating that, but it needed to be said nonetheless for those that might.
That's your opinion, and it's not a bad one. My own way of thinking tends to be more demanding.

<snip>But in order for society to shame them, it must first come to a point where such an action is truly seen as shameful, and sadly I don't think it is yet.
Then it is up to people like us to try to educate our fellow citizens. I try to do it by setting an example, and to that end, I am strict with myself -- there are things I would be ashamed to do, and those things I will never allow myself to do. Remaining still or silent when the situation demands intervention is one of those things. I take as one of my mantras a slogan of my fluffly-liberal-hippy high school civics teacher, who told us over and over again, "Silence is consent." She was kind of nutty, but in this, she was dead right.

I disagree entirely. Human beings have a great capacity for learning, changing, and so on and so forth. Now, the kind of rehabilitation I'm talking about is not forced on them, because that doesn't work as you said. It should work with them, to show them why they are wrong in a way they will admit to, and so on and so forth. The idea is to make them willing to change.

Thing is, most people lump willingness to change and ability to change together. They see a lot of people who REFUSE to change and then make the incorrect leap of logic that they CANNOT change, when in fact they COULD. It's just that they CHOOSE not to. Thus, rehabilitation should focus on ways of getting people to choose to change, and then helping them from there.

People aren't hardwired, after all. We all have hopes and dreams, thoughts and fantasies and we love life in our own way. We're all human, and it's something a lot of people tend to forget. People look at others as though they were two-dimensional cardboard cutouts rather than truly being human like themselves, and that needs to change.
Well, disagreement is fine.

I happen to believe that human nature is partially hardwired and partially shaped by experience. And it goes against my nature to try to force people to act against their hardwired natures. I believe that people have certain inherent responses to the outside world, which are hardwired. How those responses get expressed is down to experience. People who attach themselves to extremist groups like neo-nazis usually have an inherent way of thinking that is compatible with that group's structure or views, even if it is not inevitable that every single person with that inherent way of thinking will always join that particular kind of group -- that part of how they express their thinking comes from life experience. Just like not every psychopathic personality becomes a serial killer; it takes life experience to make the killers.

Because I believe in inherent human nature AND because I believe in the right of self-determination, if a neo-nazi CHOOSES not to change himself, I will not try to make him do it -- either by force or by getting him to change his choice. If that is what he is, then it is not up to me to remake him in my image.

BUT that does not mean that he is not dangerous to society. It does not mean that his views are right. It does not mean that I will tolerate him having any controlling power in my government or my community. Termites cannot help destroying wood -- it is their nature to do so -- but I will not let them tear my house apart. Neo-nazis cannot help being a threat to me and everything I value -- it is the inevitable effect of their nature -- but I will not let myself live under threat from them.

To me, it is pointless to try to change people from their inherent natures. The better reform would be to shape society so that it is less likely to create the kinds of life experiences that would steer these kinds of people towards these kinds of groups.

I looked around and couldn't find anything, so I don't know if this is old or not. But I saw this in the newspaper the other day and was horrified.

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,22813376-5012777,00.html



If you were in her situation would you have tried to intervene? I know I would have.

then have them raped by big gay russian jews lol

Here's a thought, if a neo-Nazi attacks a person unprovoked, they should have their reproductive rights taken away. ie: forced sterilisation.

make it castration

make it castration

Mmm...

*Pictures a guy shouting "Death to all Jews!" in a high-pitched voice.*

*Giggles*

P.S. I'd like to issue an apology to all ducks across the world for that demeaning comparison.

We forgive you, however we would like to point out that these inbred maggots known as neo-nazis are part of your species

What will ignoring it achieve?
The media stopping supplying such meaningless garbage to us. If people took interest in proper stories rather than stories focusing on sparking an emotional response, they'd start reporting things that matter and stories like this would be pushed out of the limelight.

BTU Cottbus has a 40% foreign student body, and the largest groups that comprise that are Chinese, Indian, and the Africans (currently, Cameroonians are the largest group of those). Cottbus still has a teeming Neo Nazi community; they have no qualms walking out in the open with their Thor Steinar brand clothing.
I was making a more general point, I think. Occasionally a Neo-Nazi will meet an immigrant, and the result is usually bad.

But when AI says that this is connected to what he perceives to be the failure of multiculturalism, I've got to disagree. Multiculturalism is not something we can actually do or see, all we see on a personal basis is whether or not we get along with people from other countries or cultures. Of course a skinhead won't, not least because he's been told all his life that he can't get along with them, but that's his problem and has nothing to do with the more abstract notions of a multicultural society.

I didn't say "ferret" out. I said "root" out, as in where they have set down roots. Just like, if you see some slight evidence of termite activity in your house, you would be a fool not to look to see how badly you've been infested and to take steps to stop the infestation from spreading, so too if people see neo-nazi gangs attacking people in their streets, if they see neo-nazi parties angling for political power in their government, etc., they would be fools not to look to see how badly their society has become infested with this ideology and take the appropriate steps to stop them from gaining power. This is because, like termites who will eventually destroy your house, neo-nazis (and similar extremists) will eventually tear their society apart.

I don't disagree with you in principle. But, take a brief look at what you're saying from a different perspective. It has an air of "I could start becoming paranoid about this" around it. Essentially, it's something to be careful with, that's all.

Against ideologies, the most effective weapon is exposure. Such outlawed groups attempting to regain access to power depend on secrecy in things like their intergroup networks and their financing sources. They depend on being able to control the flow of information about themselves, so they can control their public image. They must not be allowed to do so. They must not be allowed to spread their propaganda and their intimidation tactics unchallenged.

Now that I agree with entirely.

That's your opinion, and it's not a bad one. My own way of thinking tends to be more demanding.

Fair enough.

Then it is up to people like us to try to educate our fellow citizens. I try to do it by setting an example, and to that end, I am strict with myself -- there are things I would be ashamed to do, and those things I will never allow myself to do. Remaining still or silent when the situation demands intervention is one of those things. I take as one of my mantras a slogan of my fluffly-liberal-hippy high school civics teacher, who told us over and over again, "Silence is consent." She was kind of nutty, but in this, she was dead right.

You're right. I just wish there was a way that people would listen to more...it's all well and good to set examples, but how often will people listen to examples? How often will people actually take notice and pay attention.

I'm not saying we shouldn't do it, mind. I'm saying that, while doing it, we figure out a better way.

Well, disagreement is fine.

Oh goodie. Far too often on here people will act all shocked and horrified when someone disagrees with them and then overreact in response.

I happen to believe that human nature is partially hardwired and partially shaped by experience. And it goes against my nature to try to force people to act against their hardwired natures. I believe that people have certain inherent responses to the outside world, which are hardwired. How those responses get expressed is down to experience. People who attach themselves to extremist groups like neo-nazis usually have an inherent way of thinking that is compatible with that group's structure or views, even if it is not inevitable that every single person with that inherent way of thinking will always join that particular kind of group -- that part of how they express their thinking comes from life experience. Just like not every psychopathic personality becomes a serial killer; it takes life experience to make the killers.

Whereas I believe that xenophobia and such tendencies originate from natural instincts we have that are not countered in youth. We have to be raised to be tolerant or else we won't be, because that it is part of our survival instincts. We're tribalists. We find a group, stick with it, and start despising any other group. As such, we need education against allowing those instincts to take control. (Please note that what I speak of here is not the same as the human nature I speak of elsewhere. I am speaking here of basic instincts we are all born with, instincts that can be countered due to our ability to think and conceive abstractly.)

And it's true that the more one goes through life without such correction, the harder it is to change. But I don't believe it ever becomes impossible. Again, it's all about the dynamic between ability and willingness.

Because I believe in inherent human nature AND because I believe in the right of self-determination, if a neo-nazi CHOOSES not to change himself, I will not try to make him do it -- either by force or by getting him to change his choice. If that is what he is, then it is not up to me to remake him in my image.
I'm not saying it is. What I'm saying is that we try to demonstrate in some way they would listen to that society would work better if they become more tolerant or what have you, in a way that is not forceful. Then, when they are convinced and approach us for help to change, we help them.

And because I do not believe in a hard-wired human nature, I don't see why we couldn't help everyone. The key is to figure out the right way to make them WANT to change. After all, they're not going to change if we try to force them. They have to be willing to.

BUT that does not mean that he is not dangerous to society. It does not mean that his views are right. It does not mean that I will tolerate him having any controlling power in my government or my community. Termites cannot help destroying wood -- it is their nature to do so -- but I will not let them tear my house apart. Neo-nazis cannot help being a threat to me and everything I value -- it is the inevitable effect of their nature -- but I will not let myself live under threat from them.

To me, it is pointless to try to change people from their inherent natures. The better reform would be to shape society so that it is less likely to create the kinds of life experiences that would steer these kinds of people towards these kinds of groups.

I can understand and respect this viewpoint, but as I've said, I cannot agree with it nor would I support it being implemented in policies. It just goes against my beliefs to think this way. So long as people are willing to change, they will. I'm not saying it would be easy or without a lot of stress or what have you, but they can so long as we show them that it would be good and they choose to.

As for those that choose not too...I certainly wouldn't try to make their life miserable, but on that same token I have to agree that I wouldn't allow them to try to implement their own views into policies and legislation and the like.

The media stopping supplying such meaningless garbage to us. If people took interest in proper stories rather than stories focusing on sparking an emotional response, they'd start reporting things that matter and stories like this would be pushed out of the limelight.

I fail to see why this is meaningless garbage. I mean, why is the only reason to dislike what happened an emotional one? Am I not allowed to use logic to explain disdain for Nazism now?

I don't disagree with you in principle. But, take a brief look at what you're saying from a different perspective. It has an air of "I could start becoming paranoid about this" around it. Essentially, it's something to be careful with, that's all.
Well, maybe for you. I'm pretty much on top of my shit in this regard. :p

Now that I agree with entirely.

Fair enough.
:)

You're right. I just wish there was a way that people would listen to more...it's all well and good to set examples, but how often will people listen to examples? How often will people actually take notice and pay attention.

I'm not saying we shouldn't do it, mind. I'm saying that, while doing it, we figure out a better way.
We look for new opportunities. In the meantime, we work with what we have.

Oh goodie. Far too often on here people will act all shocked and horrified when someone disagrees with them and then overreact in response.

Whereas I believe that xenophobia and such tendencies originate from natural instincts we have that are not countered in youth. We have to be raised to be tolerant or else we won't be, because that it is part of our survival instincts. We're tribalists. We find a group, stick with it, and start despising any other group. As such, we need education against allowing those instincts to take control. (Please note that what I speak of here is not the same as the human nature I speak of elsewhere. I am speaking here of basic instincts we are all born with, instincts that can be countered due to our ability to think and conceive abstractly.)

And it's true that the more one goes through life without such correction, the harder it is to change. But I don't believe it ever becomes impossible. Again, it's all about the dynamic between ability and willingness.

I'm not saying it is. What I'm saying is that we try to demonstrate in some way they would listen to that society would work better if they become more tolerant or what have you, in a way that is not forceful. Then, when they are convinced and approach us for help to change, we help them.

And because I do not believe in a hard-wired human nature, I don't see why we couldn't help everyone. The key is to figure out the right way to make them WANT to change. After all, they're not going to change if we try to force them. They have to be willing to.
This being the case, I will gladly leave the convicted neo-nazis in your hands to do with what you will and what you can. I don't envy you the task, but good luck with it. Just don't let them run around loose until you've gotten them properly trained.

I can understand and respect this viewpoint, but as I've said, I cannot agree with it nor would I support it being implemented in policies. It just goes against my beliefs to think this way. So long as people are willing to change, they will. I'm not saying it would be easy or without a lot of stress or what have you, but they can so long as we show them that it would be good and they choose to.

As for those that choose not too...I certainly wouldn't try to make their life miserable, but on that same token I have to agree that I wouldn't allow them to try to implement their own views into policies and legislation and the like.
This is why we can disagree without fighting. We agree on the desired outcome. We only disagree on what we think is the most appropriate approach to reaching it. But since we are coming at it from completely different directions, we can both go at it without tripping each other up.

The idiots who did this to her are scum, but the EU should guarantee all the freedoms the US has in the First Amendment, among others. A guy was jailed for six months for giving a salute? That's an infringement on his inalienable rights.

Well, maybe for you. I'm pretty much on top of my shit in this regard. :p

Oh, okay then. :)

We look for new opportunities. In the meantime, we work with what we have.

Again, fair enough.

This being the case, I will gladly leave the convicted neo-nazis in your hands to do with what you will and what you can. I don't envy you the task, but good luck with it. Just don't let them run around loose until you've gotten them properly trained.

I don't exactly envy myself the task either, but I would gladly fulfill it to the best of my ability if I were actually given the task. I'm not just talk, you see.

This is why we can disagree without fighting. We agree on the desired outcome. We only disagree on what we think is the most appropriate approach to reaching it. But since we are coming at it from completely different directions, we can both go at it without tripping each other up.

Indeed.

It's so good to come to this sort of conclusion for a debate. It happens all of one percent of the time and I really enjoy that one percent.

I looked around and couldn't find anything, so I don't know if this is old or not. But I saw this in the newspaper the other day and was horrified.

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,22813376-5012777,00.html



If you were in her situation would you have tried to intervene? I know I would have.
Yes I would have

I have done it in the past and the month or so in and out of the hospital was worth every moment to protect someone else

I was making a more general point, I think. Occasionally a Neo-Nazi will meet an immigrant, and the result is usually bad.

But when AI says that this is connected to what he perceives to be the failure of multiculturalism, I've got to disagree. Multiculturalism is not something we can actually do or see, all we see on a personal basis is whether or not we get along with people from other countries or cultures. Of course a skinhead won't, not least because he's been told all his life that he can't get along with them, but that's his problem and has nothing to do with the more abstract notions of a multicultural society.

Yeah, it's very much a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you think immigrants are a problem, then you're likely to treat them as if they're a problem, causing them to react to you in problematic ways. Then you get to feel all warm and fuzzy because you were so right about them being a problem.

People so often create unfortunate realities because they believe in unfortunate fantasies.

The idiots who did this to her are scum, but the EU should guarantee all the freedoms the US has in the First Amendment, among others. A guy was jailed for six months for giving a salute? That's an infringement on his inalienable rights.

The EU doesn't have authority to make laws like this. All laws the EU makes have to be in relation to the economy, anything else is up to the countries.

And some countries are understandably careful about their political right, namely Germany and Austria. Those would be the two countries that have outlawed the Swastika and any form of Nazi memorabilia outside academic context.
I'd like to see a source on that claim about jailing someone for a salute, though. That would be taking things rather far, even for Germany.

Oh, okay then. :)

Again, fair enough.

I don't exactly envy myself the task either, but I would gladly fulfill it to the best of my ability if I were actually given the task. I'm not just talk, you see.


Indeed.

It's so good to come to this sort of conclusion for a debate. It happens all of one percent of the time and I really enjoy that one percent.
I wish we had a shaking hands smilie. :)

People so often create unfortunate realities because they believe in unfortunate fantasies.
Sigged, if you don't mind. :)

Nazism is the haven for the ignorant and inept...of course, that's obviously a good thing, especially for a situation like this.
also impotent and closet gays and incestous couples, plus bestiality

Yep, I'm the world's only neo-nazi hispanic. :p

:(

thought you were canadian

also impotent and closet gays and incestous couples, plus bestiality

I know I shouldn't ask, but... just what on earth are you trying to say?

The idiots who did this to her are scum, but the EU should guarantee all the freedoms the US has in the First Amendment, among others. A guy was jailed for six months for giving a salute? That's an infringement on his inalienable rights.Funny, there I was thinking nude bathing and drinking alcohol at age 18, inalienable rights, were denied in the US... Certainly there's less reason to prohibit those than the glorification of genocide?

The EU doesn't have authority to make laws like this. All laws the EU makes have to be in relation to the economy, anything else is up to the countries.Actually, it does.

Sigged, if you don't mind. :)

Not at all. It's flattering, I'll admit. Sig away. :)

thought you were canadian

I'm crazy enough, but I don't like hockey. :p

Yeah, real example of the moral and physical superiority of the master race here, shoving around a SIX YEAR OLD and carving a Swastika into a good samaritan.

*is disgusted*

Yeah, real example of the moral and physical superiority of the master race here, shoving around a SIX YEAR OLD and carving a Swastika into a good samaritan.

*is disgusted*Samaritan??

Samaritan??

A "good Samaritan" is an expression that comes from the Parable of the Good Samaritan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan). It basically means that the person in question helped a stranger out of the kindness of their heart.

A "good Samaritan" is an expression that comes from the Parable of the Good Samaritan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan). It basically means that the person in question helped a stranger out of the kindness of their heart.
o rly?

o rly?

Ya...rly...srlsy...

Dost thou object to my choice of words?

Funny, there I was thinking nude bathing and drinking alcohol at age 18, inalienable rights, were denied in the US... Certainly there's less reason to prohibit those than the glorification of genocide?

I'm not saying I agree with the drinking age, and indecent exposure laws are good, in the sense that I don't have to go out and see some fat, old nudist walking down the street. No one is stopping anyone from nude bathing on their own private property.

So what if Nazi symbols offend you? The symbols themselves don't hurt anybody, so they should be legal. In the United States, every word and symbol is legal. The only feasible way I can see someone go to jail for saying something is if they reveal government secrets or insider trading, something expressly forbidden.

Ya...rly...srlsy...

Dost thou object to my choice of words?Yes. Although biblical stuff may have correlations with Nazi stuff, you shouldn't mix those.

I'm not saying I agree with the drinking age, and indecent exposure laws are good, in the sense that I don't have to go out and see some fat, old nudist walking down the street. No one is stopping anyone from nude bathing on their own private property.

So what if Nazi symbols offend you? The symbols themselves don't hurt anybody, so they should be legal. In the United States, every word and symbol is legal. The only feasible way I can see someone go to jail for saying something is if they reveal government secrets or insider trading, something expressly forbidden.

Hm. Tried reading any `terrorist' documents lately? That can get you into quite a bit of trouble, from what I understand.

...
So what if Nazi symbols offend you? The symbols themselves don't hurt anybody, so they should be legal. In the United States, every word and symbol is legal. The only feasible way I can see someone go to jail for saying something is if they reveal government secrets or insider trading, something expressly forbidden.Germany is not the US. And Europe is not the US. Here the use of Nazi symbols is restricted mainly to educational purposes. And those symbols might hurt those who suffered under what those symbols represent.

Yes. Although biblical stuff may have correlations with Nazi stuff, you shouldn't mix those.

Oh for the love of...just because the term had its origins in the Bible does not mean it isn't used in many places nowadays just to mean someone who is kind-hearted. That's what happens with languages, after all...meanings change.

Of course, don't let that stop your utter hatred of anything to do with religion...I might despise many of its facets but I wouldn't go anywhere near as far as you do...

Germany is not the US. And Europe is not the US. Here the use of Nazi symbols is restricted mainly to educational purposes. And those symbols might hurt those who suffered under what those symbols represent.

The freedoms guaranteed by the United States Constitution should be a benchmark for all other constitutions written after it. It expressly forbids the government from passing any laws abridging the freedoms of speech, press, religion, peaceful assembly, and petition of the government. There is no good reason that people should be denied these freedoms.

So what if someone's feelings are hurt? We have holocoust survivors here, too, and Nazi symbols are legal. I won't go to jail for calling Mr. Cohen a kike, and I shouldn't. It's a violation of someone's inalienable right to liberty if you take away their freedom of speech.

The freedoms guaranteed by the United States Constitution should be a benchmark for all other constitutions written after it. It expressly forbids the government from passing any laws abridging the freedoms of speech, press, religion, peaceful assembly, and petition of the government. There is no good reason that people should be denied these freedoms.

So what if someone's feelings are hurt? We have holocoust survivors here, too, and Nazi symbols are legal. I won't go to jail for calling Mr. Cohen a kike, and I shouldn't. It's a violation of someone's inalienable right to liberty if you take away their freedom of speech.

QFT

The freedoms guaranteed by the United States Constitution should be a benchmark for all other constitutions written after it. It expressly forbids the government from passing any laws abridging the freedoms of speech, press, religion, peaceful assembly, and petition of the government. There is no good reason that people should be denied these freedoms.

So what if someone's feelings are hurt? We have holocoust survivors here, too, and Nazi symbols are legal. I won't go to jail for calling Mr. Cohen a kike, and I shouldn't. It's a violation of someone's inalienable right to liberty if you take away their freedom of speech.

I'm afraid that you don't have half of those freedoms in the US anymore either. Mostly due to this lovely little thing called the 'War on Terror'. I'm not exactly keen on the banning of various Nazi related stuff in Germany, but I can see where they're coming from, and I think there are other battles which are more important to fight at the moment. Mostly the direct infringement of civil liberties in the US, your 'bastion of freedom' or whatever.

I fail to see why this is meaningless garbage. I mean, why is the only reason to dislike what happened an emotional one? Am I not allowed to use logic to explain disdain for Nazism now?
No, I'm just saying, what makes this story more newsworthy than all the people that get maimed or killed every day, even on our front doorstep? I'll tell you, shes white, young, and female.
I'm not saying nazism is right, I'm just saying giving this story attention is morally objectable (outside of the area where it happens, this is a local story, national at best)

Oh for the love of...just because the term had its origins in the Bible does not mean it isn't used in many places nowadays just to mean someone who is kind-hearted. That's what happens with languages, after all...meanings change.

You took the words right out of my mouth Kyronea. Prevented me from having to address him myself...would have left a bad taste in my mouth. Thankee kindly.

This is how (East) German local governments respond to the problem:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,520244,00.html
The chief of police in an eastern German state has resigned following criticism of his decision to change how the state's notoriously high far-right crime statistics are calculated. The new method miraculously halved far-right crimes recorded in the state this year.

I'm afraid that you don't have half of those freedoms in the US anymore either. Mostly due to this lovely little thing called the 'War on Terror'. I'm not exactly keen on the banning of various Nazi related stuff in Germany, but I can see where they're coming from, and I think there are other battles which are more important to fight at the moment. Mostly the direct infringement of civil liberties in the US, your 'bastion of freedom' or whatever.

I'm not gonna argue with you about the infringement on the First Amendment by the government. But really, they haven't been affected that badly.

It doesn't matter what the Nazis did. The government has no right to ban their symbols.

If you were in her situation would you have tried to intervene? I know I would have.

I would have, and then broke the idiots necks. I myself am a Authoritarian, but I do not believe in racial superiority of any sort. Plus, a 6 year old girl? cmon, at least attack a police officer or an olympic wrestler or perhaps a Bundsweher soldier THEN if you got away you could brag...

The freedoms guaranteed by the United States Constitution should be a benchmark for all other constitutions written after it.What a complete nationalistic bullshit. E.g. the German constitution is far better than that, and yet Germany does limit certain freedoms and that's a good thing.

I'm not gonna argue with you about the infringement on the First Amendment by the government. But really, they haven't been affected that badly.

It doesn't matter what the Nazis did. The government has no right to ban their symbols.

Well, if you subscribe to the idea of a government with any power, they definitely have the ability to do so.

And what do you mean your rights haven't been that badly affected? Try 'glorifying terrorism' or anything of the sort, which strikes me as political speech. Try talking in the wrong language in an airport. Try actually standing up to the right to privacy, the right not to have the government read every bit of your communications. In comparison to that, banning Nazi symbols is nothing.

The freedoms guaranteed by the United States Constitution should be a benchmark for all other constitutions written after it. It expressly forbids the government from passing any laws abridging the freedoms of speech, press, religion, peaceful assembly, and petition of the government. There is no good reason that people should be denied these freedoms.
Oh, please. I'm an American, and I yield to no one in my admiration for the US Constitution, but I don't pretend that my nation stands as a beacon and an example for all others to emulate. Geez. I do accept that other people may be just as capable of arranging their affairs to suit their tastes as we Americans are.

As for whether there is a good reason to limit liberties such as free speech: Personally, I don't like the blanket criminalization of all Nazi-related speech and symbols. Partially, it's because I agree with Tom Paine that in order to secure our own liberties we must protect liberty for all, even our worst enemies. And partially, it is because I take a Machiavellian attitude that an enemy forced underground is an enemy I might lose sight of, which hurts my ability to fight against him. You know, "keep your friends close, and your enemies closer."

That said, however, I will not second-guess Germany's policy in regards to Nazism. We Americans, after all, were never under Nazi domination. We never suffered the oppression and atrocities, and we have (so far) never gotten sucked into that particular kind of madness. I may think there was a better approach, but I will not presume to criticize how other people cope with their own memories of hell, especially when I can't even imagine what it was like.

So what if someone's feelings are hurt? We have holocoust survivors here, too, and Nazi symbols are legal. I won't go to jail for calling Mr. Cohen a kike, and I shouldn't. It's a violation of someone's inalienable right to liberty if you take away their freedom of speech.
To everyone who wants to argue about whether the neo-nazis rights are being infringed: Are we forgetting that these particular neo-nazis assaulted both a small child and a woman, that they beat the woman and used weapons to carve up her skin? I don't care what anyone thinks about free speech, no one has a right to commit aggravated assault. For that alone, these particular neo-nazis should be arrested, charged, tried, and convicted to heavy prison sentences. It has nothing at all to do with their beliefs. Their violence should not be tolerated. Further, those local officials who are reluctant to take action against them should also be held to account and punished in some appropriate way -- at least by removal from office -- because they are refusing to fulfill their duties to enforce the law and protect the public from violent crime. Further, the neighbors who stood by and watched the assault and did nothing about it at all deserve to be shamed by their fellow Germans for their cowardice, just like in the NYC Kitty Genovese murder case that I mentioned pages ago.

It would be the exact same situation if the gang that committed the crime were just, say, drug dealers with no ideology, and the officials didn't want to punish them just because they knew them personally, and the neighbors did nothing not because the criminals were nazis but just because the neighbors were cowards.

Would I entervine... I have never been one to stand back and let an innocent person be harmed. Regardless I would have responded with action because I would have honestly been inspired by the actions of the young woman, and if I was in any condition too afterward I would help her and the kid any way I could have.

What I said about the US Constitution only refers to the freedoms guaranteed. Not to the current state of affairs or any other part of the Constitution. Limiting freedoms guaranteed to you by your inalienable rights is never a good thing.

If you're detained in an airport for speaking the 'wrong' language, you could sue and probably win. Besides, I'm no fan of the Patriot Act. I know that it's a violation of our freedoms. But if you glorify terrorism, you won't be arrested. There is no law against the glorification of anything. They might question you or get a search warrant to get inside your house, but you will never be arrested just for speaking out about it.

I'm not defending the people who attacked this girl. What I'm saying is that they, like everybody else, should have the right to total free speech. Let them say what they want to anyone. Who cares if their 'feelings are hurt'? As long as it doesn't get violent. This is why I'm also against hate crime laws and the whole 'well he called me a ******/fag/insert slur here' defense. Anyone who reacts violently to words cannot live in a civilized society.

I'm not saying I agree with the drinking age, and indecent exposure laws are good, in the sense that I don't have to go out and see some fat, old nudist walking down the street. No one is stopping anyone from nude bathing on their own private property.Down the street is not the issue. And not everyone owns a pool or lake.

So what if Nazi symbols offend you? The symbols themselves don't hurt anybody, so they should be legal. In the United States, every word and symbol is legal. The only feasible way I can see someone go to jail for saying something is if they reveal government secrets or insider trading, something expressly forbidden.So what if fat, old nudists offend you? The nudity itself doesn't hurt anybody, so it should be legal.

What I said about the US Constitution only refers to the freedoms guaranteed. Not to the current state of affairs or any other part of the Constitution. Limiting freedoms guaranteed to you by your inalienable rights is never a good thing.

If you're detained in an airport for speaking the 'wrong' language, you could sue and probably win. Besides, I'm no fan of the Patriot Act. I know that it's a violation of our freedoms. But if you glorify terrorism, you won't be arrested. There is no law against the glorification of anything. They might question you or get a search warrant to get inside your house, but you will never be arrested just for speaking out about it.

I'm not defending the people who attacked this girl. What I'm saying is that they, like everybody else, should have the right to total free speech. Let them say what they want to anyone. Who cares if their 'feelings are hurt'? As long as it doesn't get violent. This is why I'm also against hate crime laws and the whole 'well he called me a ******/fag/insert slur here' defense. Anyone who reacts violently to words cannot live in a civilized society.

This incident happened in Germany. Whatever rights the US constitution may grant, it's irrelevant and of no interest in this matter. In Europe we don't do things like the US does, we don't have to and we don't want to. Because we don't want to end up like the US. There is absolutely no reason to allow neo nazis to spread their dirt by whatever means. And Germans, and Europeans in general, know where to draw the line.

So what if fat, old nudists offend you? The nudity itself doesn't hurt anybody, so it should be legal.

sanitary purposes.

Click Stand;13257956']sanitary purposes.On a beach?

That's what hate crime laws are for.

Update on this story - new information.*

After some investigating, the police seem to think that the attack never really happened:

German police investigating a 17-year-old girl's claim that neo-Nazis cut a swastika symbol into her hip now have doubts about her story after two medical reports concluded she could have inflicted the injury on herself.
But two separate examinations since then have cast doubt on her version of events and the girl is being investigated on suspicion of falsely claiming that a crime occurred, the spokesman for the Chemnitz public prosecutor's office, Bernd Vogel, told SPIEGEL ONLINE. "There are sufficient indications to support that," he said.

Vogel stressed, however, that police were also still pursuing the original line of investigation and looking for the attackers, even though no witnesses had come forward to corroborate the story and one possible suspect had an alibi.

He said the probe so far had also found that the six-year-old girl in question hadn't been present, and could therefore not have been harassed.


http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,524303,00.htmlhttp://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,524303,00.html

I don't know, I kinda hope that she isn't making it up, because what kind of person would do something like that?


Were her claim to be proven wrong, it wouldn't be the first false account of a neo-Nazi attack. In December 2002 the 14-year-old daughter of a Cuban man walked into a police station in the town of Guben on Germany's border with Poland and claimed that neo-Nazis had cut a swastika into her cheek. She later admitted that she made up the attack.

In 1994, a wheelchair-bound girl in the eastern town of Halle made the same claim, prompting a demonstration by 10,000 people against far-right violence the next day. But she later admitted that she had lied.

Oh...
:(



*hence, not a grave-dig! ;)

cant we just get rid of them, put them all in jail where they all like to have sex with each other, nazis are gay

This incident happened in Germany. Whatever rights the US constitution may grant, it's irrelevant and of no interest in this matter. In Europe we don't do things like the US does, we don't have to and we don't want to. Because we don't want to end up like the US. There is absolutely no reason to allow neo nazis to spread their dirt by whatever means. And Germans, and Europeans in general, know where to draw the line.

Now, now, the constitution isn't why the US is in such a bad state(pardon the pun). The reason is because of the politions twisting the constitution to get more votes.

I can't belive this! Neo-Nazis pushing around a little girl and carving a swatzika into a young ladys hip. If the Nazis would just all start using some small part of the partially formed brain they have, they would realize their flawed arguments about their "Master race". Idiots.

Oh...
I don't mean to seem like a conspiracy theorist, but how do you know they weren't threatned? Or of course, they never belived that anyone would belive their stories. Or maybe it didn't happen or it was all a publicity stunt. You gotta look at ALL side of a story to find the truth.

I can't belive this! Neo-Nazis pushing around a little girl and carving a swatzika into a young ladys hip.
Well, right now they're not sure it actually happened. It's under investigation, but the little girl might have answered suggestive questions, and there was a misunderstanding when the police said the girl couldn't have done it herself.

Apparently at least one of the accused skinheads has an alibi and the little girl might never have been at the place it happened.

Young children are easily influenced.
http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume1/j1_1_3.htm
For those of you too lazy to read it all, here is a quote

We have seen again and again, in sexual abuse cases throughout this country and in other countries the massive imposition of adult social influence on suggestible children. Children are questioned and interrogated repeatedly by adults who believe that the abuse is real. The adult behaviors toward the children are frequently coercive, leading, suggestive, and punitive. Under such pressure children may produce statements which adults then believe prove sexual abuse happened. Through this environment of powerful adult influence the child may be taught an account of sexual abuse that is false.


This wouldn't jsut be sexual abuse, it would include all forms of assualt, or ANYTHING really.

They're like termites or cockroaches. If you see one, that means there are already thousands hidden in your house. Root them out at every sign of them, no matter how small.

Agreed, racists are scum, and as facist and Nazi-esque as it sounds, they should be rounded up and put in prison where they belong, let them rot for their retarded hate.

She was coming form East Germany, indeed she should have been educated in forms of socialism and social equality. But Merkel's foreigner hating political system has only worked for the re-birth of HASS in all Germany (not only germany as well austria and switzerland).
It is always the same damned, stupid, cheap policy working in German speaking countries for the last 3 decades. For example also in Austria we have so called FPOE (die Freiheitliche) talking nothing about but hate of foreigners, other nations and bla bla... It is possible to see old ladies carrying buttons at the street against the membership of Austria to European Union.
Did someone recently (or ever ever before) heard of Merkels Plan of Economics, or Government Budget, Health Reformation, Social Security Suspension? Did FPOE in Austria ever mentioned about one of them, or their Party Plans?
NO! Because there is NO!
And when you can not realize any social reforms, than you make this cheap, stupid politics of hate... It didn't surprize me at all...
As an Austrian, I hate mostly the HATING People... But unfortunately, they are not only counted as Austrian but also human (what I find such a waste of paper!)
:upyours:

The nazis are evil just like the communists. They are both so bad I cannot compare them, those people deserve a long timer in "man rape central" or as some call it prison.

I hate it when we Commies are compared to the Nazis... :(

They want to kill everyone in the world who's not White and German, and we just want to get rid of Capital/Capitalism and live in socialist societies with total equity. Hardly the same.

Sorry; I know this is really off topic but it really bothers me.

PS: Oh, and if your going to play the Stalin card: STALIN WAS NOT A COMMUNIST! He killed all the communist leaders and took advantage of the Communist system/state of mind to play god with the proletariats of Russia.

cant we just get rid of them, put them all in jail where they all like to have sex with each other, nazis are gay

you mean homosexual I guess (or hope!)

I hate it when we Commies are compared to the Nazis... :(

They want to kill everyone in the world who's not White and German, and we just want to get rid of Capital/Capitalism and live in socialist societies with total equity. Hardly the same.

Sorry; I know this is really off topic but it really bothers me.

PS: Oh, and if your going to play the Stalin card: STALIN WAS NOT A COMMUNIST! He killed all the communist leaders and took advantage of the Communist system/state of mind to play god with the proletariats of Russia.

So one side wants to kill all the successful, smart and intelligent people in a society vs eradicate all foreign elements from society.

Tell me where you see the big difference? Both wish to form a uniform utopian society. One by the belief that classes separate. The other in the belief differing religion/race/culture is what separates. And both stoop to collective murder and genocide to achieve their goals.

In short. Communists and National Socialists are two sides of the same coin. They're both evil bastards of an ideology that mean a for a greater good, but are best not to risk implementing lest one suffer from it's consequences and failures.

<snip>
I don't know, I kinda hope that she isn't making it up, because what kind of person would do something like that?
<snip>
Well...Tawana Brawley comes to mind. Gave Al Sharpton a career.

You know, people making up stories like this bothers me almost as much as when such stories are true. It's "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" -- false accusations destroy the importance of true ones. We shall see how this pans out, but if it is false, it is very unfortunate.

Agreed, racists are scum, and as facist and Nazi-esque as it sounds, they should be rounded up and put in prison where they belong, let them rot for their retarded hate.
OK, but you apparently missed all the rest of the content of that post and all my other posts.

For the record, I do not support jailing people for their beliefs, even if those beliefs are against everything I believe is right and might even pose a threat to me if acted upon.

I do see such people as racists and neo-nazis as a kind of social infestation, but I strongly believe the best way to get rid of them is by exposure, by not letting them control their own press to make themselves look good, by exposing all their lies, every time they repeat them.

Also, I do not equate action with speech, and while I might fight for the right of neo-nazis to speak and publish their filth, I will not tolerate any nazi-like actions in my society -- no violence, no gangs, no vandalism, no slanders/libels, no public provocations or confrontations, etc.

I looked around and couldn't find anything, so I don't know if this is old or not. But I saw this in the newspaper the other day and was horrified.

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,22813376-5012777,00.html
That's f***** up, at least she got away and that's all they did to the girl.

If you were in her situation would you have tried to intervene? I know I would have.
Hell yeah I would.

I would have, too. I mean, they were picking on a little kid! As for the people who just stood on their balconies and watched -- what kind of scum are they?

It reminds me of 2 things (sorry for the long stories, but they explain what my mindset is):

1) The Kitty Genovese murder in NYC back in the 1970s. Kitty Genovese was attacked, beaten, and ultimately stabbed to death by a stranger on the street in a residential neighbhorhood in Queens. The attack, which took more than 45 minutes, happened in the middle of a block of apartment buildings. The investigation quickly revealed that numerous people in the apartments had witnessed the attack -- from start to finish -- and not one of them had called the police. When questioned, they all said, "I didn't want to get involved." Aside from the horror of what had happened to Ms. Genovese, that (lack of) response and that attitude from the surrounding people shocked NYC and the US so badly that, out of all of NYC's annual murders, it put the Kitty Genovese killing into the history books. It also led to a several-year slew of books, movies, tv dramas and studies about a society coming apart at the seams and devolving into an "every man for himself" attitude. To this day, the people who remember Kitty Genovese -- even us who had nothing at all to do with it -- feel kind of sick in our stomaches whenever we think about it. It's a feeling of shame.

2) A personal experience of my own: Evening rush hour commute on the E train from Manhattan to Queens, early 1990s. The train crowded to the point of unwanted intimacy. August. No air conditioning. Everyone suffering. One guy making jokes to try to lighten the mood -- kind of funny, kind of annoying. Suddenly, an obviously drunk guy, more than twice the size of the joker, attacks the joker. Without any warning, just launches himself at the joker, clamps his hands around his throat and starts strangling him. The crowd parts as far as it can, and I find myself standing right there, watching this guy strangle this other guy -- whose face is turning purple now -- and seeing that nobody is doing anything, and nobody looks like they're going to.

And I kind of just snapped. I remember pointing at three guys and shouting at them to break this up, to pull the attacker off. They were in shock -- they stared at me, wide-eyed, for half a second, and then did as I said. They got the attacker off and pushed him into a seat, and the joker was left in another seat, gasping for breath. For a minute or two, it seemed to be over. Then the drunk decided otherwise, and lunged at the joker again, and that's when I did the craziest thing I've ever done -- but I was really pissed off.

I stepped in front of the lunging drunk (and I was even smaller than the guy he'd been choking, plus I'm a girl) and yelled, "Sit your ass back down! You've caused enough trouble. If you want to kill this guy, you wait till the next station, take him off the train, and kill him on the platform -- but you are not going to kill him on this train because I'm not in the mood for it!" (I remember the words I said, because it was almost like an out of body experience.) And that seemed to confuse him a bit, because he just blinked at me a couple of times and then sat back down. And that was the end until I got off the train myself.

But for years -- to this day -- the part that stands out the most for me, the part that still bothers me the most, is that I had to be the leader in that episode. That no one else had the presence of mind to step up and do the right thing. I can't shake the certainty that if I had not been there to get those three guys to break up the attack, that drunk would have strangled that joker to death while all those people just stood there and watched.

I don't care if they're afraid or they're shocked or what the excuse is. People who would just stand there and watch and do nothing -- not shout, not throw things, not call the police -- while another person is brutalized -- while a little child is bullied by a gang and a young woman is attacked and cut up -- they're not real people in my eyes. They're somehow less than human. That thing with the drunk on the subway was one of the things that made me leave NYC in the end. I couldn't stand to be surrounded by these cowards, these sheep. I knew when I saw them standing and staring, that I really was all alone on the streets, that I would have no one to turn to, no place to find help, if I ever got into trouble. Being surrounded by these losers increased my distrust factor so much, I finally gave up and left.

These neo-nazis deserve aggravated assault convictions with sentences upward of 20 years without parole for what they did to that girl. The neighbors who did nothing, the authorities that are complicit in tolerating this violence, deserve even worse. They deserve to be pilloried 100 times worse than NYC and New Yorkers were for their shameful failure to stand up for Kitty Genovese. The German media should be raking them over the coals, daily, forever. They should marked as the pop culture face of everything that is wrong in Germany, everything that threatens German society, everything that hints of the crimes, atrocities and failures of Germany's past, everything Germany never wants to be again. They should be made to feel the shame of what they did, or didn't do, and that shame should be so deep that even Germans who weren't there should feel ashamed that any Germans were involved at all.

If everyone really is on their own, if there is no "us," no sense that the person being hurt is one of ours (even if "ours" just means "fellow living being") and we have do something about it, then there can be no society.

You can always trust neo-nazis to be neo-nazis. You can always rely on them to be violent, hateful, vicious bastards and criminals, and you can adjust your behavior around them accordingly. But these so-called law-abiding citizens who won't even call the police when they see a woman being attacked, who will stand there and watch instead -- what can you trust them for? Eh? They terrify -- and disgust -- me more than a whole Nazi Party would.

They mentioned Kitty at the begging of the movie Boondock Saints. Talking about how there is a greater evil than the actions of evil men, the inaction of good men.

It almost makes me wish e had a couple of guys like that in KC, Detroit, Philly, anyplace with Murder over 100 people a year.

Either that or I wish Light Yagami existed.

So one side wants to kill all the successful, smart and intelligent people in a society vs eradicate all foreign elements from society.

Tell me where you see the big difference? Both wish to form a uniform utopian society. One by the belief that classes separate. The other in the belief differing religion/race/culture is what separates. And both stoop to collective murder and genocide to achieve their goals.

In short. Communists and National Socialists are two sides of the same coin. They're both evil bastards of an ideology that mean a for a greater good, but are best not to risk implementing lest one suffer from it's consequences and failures.

Smart and intelligent people? We only want to get rid of the class structures and allow Bourgeois and Proletariats to be equal. You can't stop being a Jew but to stop being a Bourgeois all you have to do is stop hoarding food while people starve and the like. BIG difference. Also Every political government/system has 'stooped' to murder. Before you judge the 'crimes' of Communism take at look at Democracy and Capitalism's track records. Colonization, Imperialism, mass wars, genocides, etc.

Nazis want to build a society based on one race owning all others and gGod knows what; Communists want to, again, get rid of class structures so all can be equal and strive for a better civilization. Think of the Federation in Star Trek: Thats basically what we're aiming for.

You seem to have Communism confused with some kind of twisted McCarthyist nightmare.