NationStates Jolt Archive

Inspired by the discussion on the "Boys 8, 9 Charged With Rape of 11-Year Old Girl" thread.


I recently learned that most countries and states have different laws regarding rape. The law where in Queensland, Australia is:

133A. Rape s 349
(Offences occurring after 27 October 20001)
The prosecution must prove the defendant:

Had carnal knowledge2 of or with (the complainant).
Without her consent3
OR
Penetrated the vulva, vagina or anus of the other person.
To any extent
With a thing or part of the defendant’s body that is not a penis
Without the consent of the other person
OR
Penetrated the mouth of the other person
To any extent
With the defendant’s penis
Without the consent of the other person"

http://www.courts.qld.gov.au/practice/qsdcbb/main_chap133a.htm


I continued to research differing definitions and explanations of rape, and I came across a website that reflected views that are close to my own:

"Rape is sexual intercourse without consent or with indifference to consent. Indifference to consent is a legal term that means, for example, if a man has sex with a woman who is drunk or drugged and who does not protest, because she is not in a condition to give consent, it is rape. This means that the man does not care whether she gives consent or not (indifference). The legal definition of rape differs between countries, and from state to state. (For information on Australian State laws, see the section on references and further reading).

The difference between healthy sexual contact and rape is not the sexual act, but the lack of consent. Examples of lack of consent include physical force such as hitting, shoving, pushing, slapping, grabbing arms or wrists, and holding down. If pressure is put on you or you are bullied into having sex when you don't want to, or you show by your behaviour that you are not consenting it is still rape, even if you have not actually said 'No'.

Often rapists make excuses in an attempt to justify rape. They often use excuses to try to shift responsibility for rape away from them. It is important to remember that nobody has the right to force someone else into an unwanted sexual activity.

Note: Sexual intercourse in the definition of rape means penetration of the vagina or anus by any part of another person or any object. It also includes mouth to genitals contact."

http://www.cyh.com/HealthTopics/HealthTopicDetails.aspx?p=240&np=300&id=2063#top

How does your home state/country define rape?
How do YOU define rape?


I realise that this thread will be controversial and probably upset some people, so please try to be polite.

Been there, done that.

...

I'm obviously referring to the fact that this article has already appeared in the OP of a thread.

Me and Mr. Bann-ed.

:fluffle: (forcefully)

Been there, done that.

...

I'm obviously referring to the fact that this article has already appeared in the OP of a thread.

If you can READ, you'll be able to see that I wrote that this thread was inspired by the dicussion on that thread.

Me and Mr. Bann-ed.

:fluffle: (forcefully)

I forget..was it the first, second, or third definition?

Our university tells us that sex after drinking alcohol (or smoking pot) is rape...so don't do it.


:rolleyes:

If you can READ, you'll be able to see that I wrote that this thread was inspired by the dicussion on that thread.

Oh! Whoa..well, if you have put that in bold like the vicious attack on my vision that you just skewered me with, I would have seen it.

Our university tells us that sex after drinking alcohol (or smoking pot) is rape...so don't do it.


:rolleyes:

I think it could be bad situation if one person was drunk/high/off-their-face and the other person wasn't....

Our university tells us that sex after drinking alcohol (or smoking pot) is rape...so don't do it.

:rolleyes:

Really? I doubt they actually say all sex after any consumption is rape.

But feel free to post a link showing otherwise.

EDIT: My guess is your university advises people to be careful about when and with whom they have sex. In particular, I bet they warn about having sex when the judgment of one or more party may be impaired.

I forget..was it the first, second, or third definition?

All of them...yet none of them.

*ponders universe*

Oh! Whoa..well, if you have put that in bold like the vicious attack on my vision that you just skewered me with, I would have seen it.

Perhaps you should just take the time to read threads before you post about them.

[/end threadjack.]

Really? I doubt they actually say all sex after any consumption is rape.

But feel free to post a link showing otherwise.
1. I told you what they tell us...it wasn't a news article. Don't be so link crazy.
2. I'm not telling you where I go to college.

3. They say that after we consume anything that alters your state of mind, you lose your perception to totally say no, thus if reported the person who you report having sex with you would be charged for rape. I don't beleive it and I think it's their scare tactic they use against us.

1. I told you what they tell us...it wasn't a news article. Don't be so link crazy.
2. I'm not telling you where I go to college.

3. They say that after we consume anything that alters your state of mind, you lose your perception to totally say no, thus if reported the person who you report having sex with you would be charged for rape. I don't beleive it and I think it's their scare tactic they use against us.

It depends on where you live, but like I said, if one person was too intoxicated to give consent, it could be considered rape.

1. I told you what they tell us...it wasn't a news article. Don't be so link crazy.
2. I'm not telling you where I go to college.

3. They say that after we consume anything that alters your state of mind, you lose your perception to totally say no, thus if reported the person who you report having sex with you would be charged for rape. I don't beleive it and I think it's their scare tactic they use against us.

I don't believe that is exactly what "they" told you. I think you have misunderstood or are misrepresenting what you were actually told.

EDIT: On second thought, I have no idea what kind of strange institution you may be attending. Perhaps they told you something nutball. I doubt any major institution would say such a thing, however.

It depends on where you live, but like I said, if one person was too intoxicated to give consent, it could be considered rape.

Of course. And I don't think anyone would argue with that. At least I hope not.

TAI appears to be claiming that the students at his/her university are told any sex after any consumption of alcohol or drugs is rape. That obviously isn't true and I doubt that is what the university literally said.

Perhaps you should just take the time to read threads before you post about them.

[/end threadjack.]

I did in fact, read the thread. I missed the miniscule font right below the border is all.
Anyways...

I can't find the specific legal system's definition of rape for the United States because I am apparently incompetent at using Google. I'm sure someone else will find it.

I think my definition of rape is pretty much covered by the second set of 'guidelines' you quoted.
I don't agree with the Queensland, Australia definition because(if that is the entire definition) it implies only men can rape. While the vast majority of rapes are committed by men, that definition makes it impossible for a woman to be accused of rape, or found guilty of it. Wait, ignore that, the second definition technically allows for women to rape.

Of course. And I don't think anyone would argue with that. At least I hope not.

TAI appears to be claiming that the students at his/her university are told any sex after any consumption of alcohol or drugs is rape. That obviously isn't true and I doubt that is what the university literally said.
I doubt it, too, but on the other hand, we can't be too certain. I am shocked daily about the depth of idiocy in positions of authority these days. It is unlikely but not entirely impossible that a college administrator might approve a message that was *that* stupid and *that* wrong.

If TAI could post some quotes from some kind of leaflet or handout from the college/university, or link to a student support/affairs/whatever web page, that would be helpful.

rape is a dead word used by tabloids "sexual assault" usually has a more accurate connection and can also include masturbation

so I say no to rape and this thread because there are happy things still in the world

Of course. And I don't think anyone would argue with that. At least I hope not.

TAI appears to be claiming that the students at his/her university are told any sex after any consumption of alcohol or drugs is rape. That obviously isn't true and I doubt that is what the university literally said.

After person A consumes alcohol or drugs and person B has sex with person A, Person A should they deem it necessary, can report it as rape because person A was not in full control of their body to give consent.

What they told us at freshman orientation, not what I beleive. Again, I think it was scare tactics to use against us. There is no article or anything because it was just what they told us during orientation. If people here choose not to beleive me, then fine...go debate something else. :) I just said it because I felt it had to do with the subject....it's not like I made a thread on it.

rape is a dead word used by tabloids "sexual assault" usually has a more accurate connection and can also include masturbation

so I say no to rape and this thread because there are happy things still in the world

The term 'rape', by some definitions, can also include mutual masturbation. I think 'sexual assault' seems like a weaker word.

&& Ignorance is not bliss...

The term 'rape', by some definitions, can also include mutual masturbation. I think 'sexual assault' seems like a weaker word.

&& Ignorance is not bliss...

I just want to point out that if the masturbation is mutual, it probably isn't rape. Forced mutual masturbation would be.

Non consensual penetration

Non consensual penetration

If I were to run you through with a sword, you would consider that rape? :p

I just want to point out that if the masturbation is mutual, it probably isn't rape. Forced mutual masturbation would be.

Mutual masturbation means fingering/hand-jobs.

And obviously I meant forced.

In the UK, at least, rape is defined in s1 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 as follows:
(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a) He intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
(b) B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

(2) Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.

Most Acts of Parliament use "he" to refer to both male and female (as per the Interpretation Act 1973), but the inclusion of "his penis" means that a female cannot legally rape anyone.

However, they can be guilty of assault by penetration under s2 of the Sexual offences Act;

(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina or anus of another person (B) with a part of his body or anything else,
(b) the penetration is sexual,
(c) B does not consent to the penetration, and
(d) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

(2) Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.

They can also be guilty of causing a person to engage in sexual activity without consent under s4 of the Sexual Offences Act;

(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a) he intentionally causes another person (B) to engage in an activity,
(b) the activity is sexual,
(c) B does not consent to engaging in the activity, and
(d) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

(2) Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.

(In the last two offences "he" may also mean "she" under the previously mentioned Interpretation Act 1973)

So, essentially, a woman can be guilty of a crime of similar definition to rape, but not rape itself.

I know the following is lengthy, but I think it is interesting and relevant to the topic.

All Rape Is 'Real' Rape
By Alice Vachss
Originally published in The New York Times, August 11, 1993

This summer, when "whirlpooling" replaced "wilding" as the latest media-designated sex crime, the peer group that spawned such gang assaults rallied to their defense. It blamed the victims ("girls have to know how to take care of themselves!") and excused the offenders ("this was just innocent horseplay!"). I toured this country recently and learned again that such prejudices pollute far more than New York City's public swimming pools.

Only one in 100 victims of forcible rape sees her attacker sent to prison, according to a report released in June by the Senate Judiciary Committee—hardly a group notable for a feminist stance. Our criminal justice system has sent a near-universal message. For victims, the message signifies betrayal, and for rapists the message is one of endorsement.

With mounting evidence and urgency, it is becoming apparent that we need to go to war against sexual assault. And just as at the brink of World War II, the more evident the need for conflict, the more strident the calls for appeasement.

It is no longer socially acceptable to openly condone sexual assault, so many (while facilely characterizing rape as "the worst thing that could happen to a woman") distinguish between "real" rape and what they insist are "gray areas" such as "date rape."

Those who make the distinction are, in effect, collaborators. To them, "real" rape can happen only between strangers. Their prototypical rapist is virtually an alien life form whose acts bear no resemblance to "normal" human behavior. The victim is always readily identifiable by her conduct, demeanor and life history as someone we would welcome into our own family. The "real" rapist strikes only at night, armed with weapons that would put Rambo to shame; nonetheless, the victim fights him to near-death and suffers multiple visible injuries. "Real" rapes take place in full view of upstanding eyewitnesses so that it is never simply "her word against his" and even then the eyewitness testimony must be buttressed by ample forensic evidence of trauma, semen, blood typing and DNA analysis. "Real" victims report the crime immediately. "Real" rapists, the products of excess testosterone, eventually confess.

It is hardly a surprise that few criminal assaults meet these criteria. It is a fact (and a disgrace) that, with rare exceptions, only those crimes that do are prosecuted successfully, from investigation to conviction to significant imprisonment.

Those who cling most tenaciously to the myth of "real" rape dismiss the overwhelming statistics to the contrary as the ravings of lunatic feminists. It may well be that feminists have their own agenda, but rape is not a feminist issue—it is a women's issue, and a human one.

When sexually violent young men prey on those closest and most vulnerable to them, collaborators say that "boys will be boys." They proclaim that "date rape" is synonymous with ungentlemanly conduct. Collaborators demand that we look primarily at the victim's conduct: What was she wearing? Did she lead him on? Was she asking for it? Rape seems to be the only crime that establishes performance criteria for victims.

We need to start looking at criminality, not victimology. Anyone who finds sexual gratification in the degradation, humiliation and pain of another human being is a predatory sadist. Whether or not he knew the victim, whether or not he used a weapon, if he used force (including extortion) to achieve sex, he crossed a line—a line collaborators would have us believe is blurred to the point of invisibility.

In the absence of significant consequences, such behavior will escalate. The incidence of stranger-to-stranger rape is directly proportional to the tolerance with which society treats acquaintance rape. And the incidence of all rape is directly proportional to our response to rapists.

Pollsters can argue about the number of unreported rapes. But no one can argue about their existence. "Date rape" is an unfortunate term in that it implies an inaccurate scenario of how rape occurs between people who know each other. "Sexual harassment" has been applied indiscriminately to describe acts ranging from coarse language to gunpoint sodomy.

All of this is true, but it does not change the basic truth: The deeper rape collaboration penetrates societal consciousness, the more the climate promotes sexual violence. Given the extraordinarily high rate of recidivism among rapists, the only thing "inevitable" about rape is its recurrence.

We know we have unacceptable levels of sexual violence. We ratify that truth every time we lock our doors at night, every time we worry about a loved one who doesn't arrive home when expected. Every woman who steps into an elevator alone or who must retrieve her car from a desolate parking lot knows the fear of sexual assault.

What we must also understand is that our fears are legitimate, and that the situation is one of our own making. We aid and abet rapists every time we settle for "treatment" (instead of prison) for the priest or the basketball coach who molests our children; every time we applaud a college football star even though we know he routinely beats up his girlfriend; every time we euphemize incest as "family dysfunction"; every time we acquit a rapist because his victim had too much to drink or asked him to use a condom.

We have allowed prosecutors to hide behind conviction rates instead of evaluating their performance in all cases of sexual assault, not just those they choose to prosecute. The myth of "real" rape permits them to decline to prosecute most rapists and offer probation or minimal sentences to more than half of those who are prosecuted.

We have a choice. We can believe the people who insist that things are not so bad—that "real" rape is the only form of sexual assault and that there is really not so much of that. Or we can start demanding change.

Sexual assaults flourish in a climate of "gray areas." So long as the myth of "real" rape survives, rapists will thrive. And we will all pay for their evil entertainment.

Alice Vachss is the author of "Sex Crimes: Ten Years on the Front Lines Prosecuting Rapists and Confronting Their Collaborators", a book about her experience as the former chief of the Special Victims Bureau of the Queens District Attorney's office

Link to other articles by Alice Vachss. (http://www.alicevachss.com/articles.html) (And for those who are familiar, yes, she is the wife of Andrew Vachss, the author and child-advocate).

After person A consumes alcohol or drugs and person B has sex with person A, Person A should they deem it necessary, can report it as rape because person A was not in full control of their body to give consent.

What they told us at freshman orientation, not what I beleive. Again, I think it was scare tactics to use against us. There is no article or anything because it was just what they told us during orientation. If people here choose not to beleive me, then fine...go debate something else. :) I just said it because I felt it had to do with the subject....it's not like I made a thread on it.

I think I admitted that I cannot know for sure that you are not accurately conveying the message you were told. It is so obviously untrue that I found it unlikely. I leaped to the unbased conclusion that you were like many I have encountered who exaggerate things like this to make rape or sexual harassment seminars sound stupid. I hope that is not your intent.

I am also not sure what you mean by "scare tactics." What do you think they were trying to scare you away from?

If someone says no. That's a blanket. Rape occurs if there is a no and whatever still takes place. It doesn't matter what exactly the assault was. If someone is a child and an adult does something, it's rape. Not two teenagers, and adult and a child. If someone is incapacitated, under the influence of the date rape drug for example, and someone does something to them then it is rape. I'm not talking about two drunken freshmen in the back of a car. I'm talking about if someone is laying on the floor completely passed out.


I think the problem is alot of people assume that rape means the penetration of a woman by a man. This isn't so. The majority of children that are hurt are not technically raped but it comes down to the same thing. For me rape means if you say no, are completely incapacitated, or a child.

1. I told you what they tell us...it wasn't a news article. Don't be so link crazy.
2. I'm not telling you where I go to college.

3. They say that after we consume anything that alters your state of mind, you lose your perception to totally say no, thus if reported the person who you report having sex with you would be charged for rape. I don't beleive it and I think it's their scare tactic they use against us.

So if you and someone else have a few drinks and the other reports you, you could just report them too, right?

What is rape?

Baby don't hurt me;
Don't hurt me;
No more;

Oops, too late. You raped me. :(

What is rape?

Baby don't hurt me;
Don't hurt me;
No more;

Oops, too late. You raped me. :(

NSG has been taken over by idiots.

Collaborators demand that we look primarily at the victim's conduct: What was she wearing? Did she lead him on? Was she asking for it? Rape seems to be the only crime that establishes performance criteria for victims.

This news had currently really disturbed me. A 19 years old Saudi girl got lashed 200 times and sent to jail after being gang raped. :(
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/16/world/main3511560.shtml?source=mostpop_story
I agree with the article posted by The Cat Tribe, stating that we really need to look far beyond the victimology in dealing with the case of rape, in whatever definition it might come with.

I don’t know… I think there are a whole hell of a lot more ways to rape a person than your law suggests- Any sort of forced sexual activity (“sexual assault”) can have the same psychological effect, and implies the same kind of malevolence from the perpetrator, as forced intercourse, so to act as though it’s not rape just because nothing was shoved up a hole seems negligent.

Anyways, I do believe there isn’t a certain point where alcohol can be a tool for rape; if you know a person wouldn’t do you sober, then you shouldn’t do them drunk. If you’re not sure, then the considerate thing to do would be to make sure. It’s just something you need to figure out between the two of you before you start pulling out the hard alcohol. To me, taking advantage of them while they can’t think any clearer is little different in concept from molesting young children.

If you can READ, you'll be able to see that I wrote that this thread was inspired by the dicussion on that thread.I am the owner of that other thread.. and I hereby go on the record with a friendly "I dont mind, carry on"

It depends on where you live, but like I said, if one person was too intoxicated to give consent, it could be considered rape.Anything can be considered to be rape by this -or that- State legislation.

Your thread was about opinion.
My opinion is that the Administrators of that University are advising their students.. based on the crazy/stupid laws they have in the Atlantian state

Our university tells us that sex after drinking alcohol (or smoking pot) is rape...so don't do it.
What they told us at freshman orientation, not what I beleive.
I'd consider leaving that university immediately. This "freshman orientation" doesn't sound like something an institution meant to train you to think independently would be doing, but rather like some requirement manufactured by overzealous anti-sex activists.

I'm proud to say that my university has an orientation week, but covers things like "how the library works" and "how to write a good assignment", not how we are to use our bodies.

I'd consider leaving that university immediately. This "freshman orientation" doesn't sound like something an institution meant to train you to think independently would be doing, but rather like some requirement manufactured by overzealous anti-sex activists.seconded.

Rape is any sexual contact between two people that is forced in anyway. Be it nagging a girl until she finally says yes even if she keeps saying no, or be it grabbing someone and ripping there clothes off, etc.
In plain terms, Rape can also happen to a man as well as a woman.

I know the following is lengthy, but I think it is interesting and relevant to the topic.

<snip for length>
Excellent article, CT. I agree with every word of it. The idea that a violent crime such as rape can be fuzzied up with such qualifications, hedging, and excuses is one of the most disheartening things facing advocates for equal rights.

NSG has been taken over by idiots.

Yes, taken over.. Though I was here long, long before you.

Really? I doubt they actually say all sex after any consumption is rape.

But feel free to post a link showing otherwise.

EDIT: My guess is your university advises people to be careful about when and with whom they have sex. In particular, I bet they warn about having sex when the judgment of one or more party may be impaired.

Actually I belive you can charge rape even under impairment. At least that could be in this state.

NSG has been taken over by idiots.

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/aetsch/cheeky-smiley-005.gif

Actually I belive you can charge rape even under impairment. At least that could be in this state.

You are being a bit too vague for me to respond intelligently, but I'll give it a try anyway.

Rape can definitely occur if one party is too intoxicated to be able to consent (or refuse). But that is a far cry from saying that rape occurs anytime one party has had a drink of alcohol. The latter isn't the law in any state in the United States.

Anything can be considered to be rape by this -or that- State legislation.

Theoretically, perhaps. In reality, not so much so.

Your thread was about opinion.
My opinion is that the Administrators of that University are advising their students.. based on the crazy/stupid laws they have in the Atlantian state

What TAI says he was told doesn't match the laws of any state in the United States.

A non-consensual sex act.

[SIZE="1"]
How does your home state/country define rape?
How do YOU define rape?


I realise that this thread will be controversial and probably upset some people, so please try to be polite.

1. My state (Virginia, USA) defines rape under 18.2-61 as


If any person has sexual intercourse with a complaining witness, whether or not his or her spouse, or causes a complaining witness, whether or not his or her spouse, to engage in sexual intercourse with any other person and such act is accomplished (i) against the complaining witness's will, by force, threat or intimidation of or against the complaining witness or another person; or (ii) through the use of the complaining witness's mental incapacity or physical helplessness; or (iii) with a child under age 13 as the victim, he or she shall be guilty of rape.

In addition, There is "Carnal Knowledge" laws under 18.2-64.1 and 64.2 which defined a system similar to rape to persons 15 or older when they are considered "wards of the state" either within adult or juvenile corrections...

2. I personally define rape as the engaging in of any sexual activity, including anal and oral, including with foreign objects where the victim never supplied consent (which would include in scenarios where the victim is not capable of providing legal consent, such as with a minor or with someone of mental handicap)... my one point of contention, however, is I do not believe it is proper to punish ONE party for rape in cases where it is two juveniles below the age of consent, merely because of this. If a 12 year old boy engages a sexual act with 12 year old girl... Either charge BOTH with rape, or neither... I detest situations where ONE party is charged merely because the other party is "below the age of consent".... Anything other than charging BOTH or NEITHER is by default unjust.

Rape is just another word for "surprise sex"

Excellent article, CT. I agree with every word of it. The idea that a violent crime such as rape can be fuzzied up with such qualifications, hedging, and excuses is one of the most disheartening things facing advocates for equal rights.

I agree with most of it. I disagree with the contention that rape is a "women's issue". It is a human issue - and is a problem for women and men.

TAI appears to be claiming that the students at his/her university are told any sex after any consumption of alcohol or drugs is rape. That obviously isn't true and I doubt that is what the university literally said.

If it were the case then the nearly all of the adult population of the US are rapist.

Rape is just another word for "surprise sex"

I wonder if the definition is submittable in court. Some reason this reminds me of that song "date rape".

"Oh baby, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me no more..."

:eek:

*hides*

"Oh baby, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me no more..."

:eek:

*hides*


You should be shot on the sight for this. :p

This news had currently really disturbed me. A 19 years old Saudi girl got lashed 200 times and sent to jail after being gang raped. :(
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/16/world/main3511560.shtml?source=mostpop_story
I agree with the article posted by The Cat Tribe, stating that we really need to look far beyond the victimology in dealing with the case of rape, in whatever definition it might come with.

That's so horrible.
I can't believe that some people justify rape by saying "she was asking for it" or "she was dressed like she wanted it" etc.

I am the owner of that other thread.. and I hereby go on the record with a friendly "I dont mind, carry on"

Thank you.

seconded.

Thirded.

It is pretty weird that a uni would say that.
Private girls' schools get involved in personal stuff like that too.

Rape is any sexual contact between two people that is forced in anyway. Be it nagging a girl until she finally says yes even if she keeps saying no, or be it grabbing someone and ripping there clothes off, etc.
In plain terms, Rape can also happen to a man as well as a woman.

Agreed.

Yes, taken over.. Though I was here long, long before you.

I had another username before this one... but I'm assuming you're implying that I'm an idiot. Is that correct?

I agree with most of it. I disagree with the contention that rape is a "women's issue". It is a human issue - and is a problem for women and men.

Good point. I agree.

A sexual activity whereby one of the engaging parties has not given consent or does not have the capacity to do so.