NationStates Jolt Archive

Who here agrees with me that moderates kick ass?! Hooray for compromise! Especially rightists....(Go Guiliani, even if he isn't all that moderate!)

What do you think of...
Abortion: Baby Killing.
Death Penalty: There are escape hazards out there.
Stem Cell Research: If you can do it without aborting fetuses, all for it!
Enviormentalism/Global Warming: Save the Polar Bears!
Imperialism: Teddy Roosevelt is my hero. 'Nuff said.
Surveillence: The NS issue "Police Consider Big Brother Security" says it best "When you're in public, people can SEE YOU!!"
Communism: Sucks
Fascism: Beats communism
Castro: Why havn't we had him killed yet?
Bush: There's worse.
Health Care: Government provided, within reason.
Taxes: Be honest about 'em.
Social Security: Need it.
Large Government/Small Government: Medium! Hooray for states rights with central power!
Gun Control: Have background checks for goodness sakes! (And ban machine guns in most places, but not semi-automatics and other stuff).
Partisanship: COMPROMISE, PEOPLE! IT'S A GOOD THING!!!!!!!!

Al Gore "strongly liberal"? Haha, you USA people can be so funny that way.

Liberalism is an economic philosophy emphasizing individual freedom from restraint and usually based on free competition, the self-regulating market, and the gold standard. It is right wing, and I gather you're not trying to claim that Al Gore is a rightist. For some reason, a lot of yanks don't know political history and seem to think liberalism is left-wing and somehow adjacent to communism, when in fact they're diametrically opposed.

In any case, I'll do the silly meme:

Abortion: It is an "issue" that was settled in the 50s and 60s in favour of women's rights to their own bodies. Thus, not an issue in this day and age.
Death Penalty: Been banned for close to a century, fortunately.
Stem Cell Research: Not an issue, see the abortion answer.
Environmentalism/Global Warming: Former good, latter bad.
Imperialism: It didn't work in the New World, it didn't work in Africa, it won't work in the Middle East.
Surveillance: We are supposed to live in a free society, so of course I oppose surveillance.
Communism: Awful.
Fascism: Even more awful.
Castro: He's a dictator half a world away and does not occupy a space in my sphere of consciousness.
Bush: As I said, the death penalty is a historic barbarism, but I wouldn't mind if he died in a fire or some other such painful accident.
Health Care: A human right.
Taxes: I don't mind them, as they pay for tonnes of stuff I use.
Social Security: Hope I won't ever need it, but should be there for those who do.
Large Government/Small Government: Not an issue.
Gun Control: Not an issue, guns are bad.
Partisanship: We've seven parties in the Riksdag and whips for a reason - we vote for their policies and programmes, nothing else, so they should stick to them and their core ideologies. A party without an ideology and principles is not a political party, it is an election machinery meant to make a mockery of political parties. Populism is for idiots.

Abortion position: Pro-choice, not pro-rape
Death Penalty: Only in EXCEPTIONAL circumstances (e.g. Osama).
Stem Cell research: A necessary good.
Global Warming: Priority 1.
Imperialism/interventionalism: Let the UN pick up some more slack.
Surveillance: Reduce (but don't reuse or recycle)
Communism: Doesn't work.
Fascism: Worse than communism.
Castro: Bad health, fortunately.
Dubya: 25-to-life.
Health Care: Increase.
Taxes: Repeal Bush's idiotic tax cuts.
Social Security: Keep!
Govenrment: Regulat the economy, not the bedroom.
Gun control: The fewer guns, the better.
Partisanship: Let's try to cut it down, 'k?

Al Gore "strongly liberal"? Haha, you USA people can be so funny that way.

Liberalism is an economic philosophy emphasizing individual freedom from restraint and usually based on free competition, the self-regulating market, and the gold standard. It is right wing, and I gather you're not trying to claim that Al Gore is a rightist. For some reason, a lot of yanks don't know political history and seem to think liberalism is left-wing and somehow adjacent to communism, when in fact they're diametrically opposed.

It's also quite humorous that he says that Gore is strongly leftist, when he's centre-right at best.


Abortion: No one should be able to tell a woman what medical procedures she can or can't have performed
Death Penalty: State sanctioned murder. Luckily, my state banned it 160 years ago
Stem Cell Research: I've yet to see a convincing argument against it
Environmentalism/Global Warming: I vote Green in most state elections
Imperialism: It's monstrous and barbarous.
Surveillance: Inconsistent with the idea of freedom
Communism: Bad
Fascism: Bad
Castro: Honestly, who cares?
Bush: One of the worst Presidents, and that's saying something.
Health Care: A fundamental human right.
Taxes: The price we pay for a civilized society.
Social Security: We have to have something there for the least fortunate.
Large Government/Small Government: I question the need for the federal government to even exist. However, I'm a social democrat and thus am for "big government" in this sense.
Gun Control: I'm very pro-gun with certain restrictions such as criminal records, mental health state, etc. I think if we addressed the root causes of crime, such as poverty, it wouldn't be so much of an issue.
Partisanship: The idea that two parties can represent the whole of political thought it ridiculous.

It's also quite humorous that he says that Gore is strongly leftist, when he's centre-right at best.

The closest thing to a leftist politician in the USA I've seen is Dennis Kucinich (the only USA politician I'd actually consider voting for had I not been fortunate not to have been born there, plus there's something awfully cute about his keebler-elfishness), and Al Gore is not Dennis Kucinich.

anyone who is against the pro-choice position is not a moderate. Sorry, but it's not. Anybody who would outlaw abortion can not be described as moderate.

Simply put, wanting to deny fundamental basic human liberties of bodily autonomy is not a moderate position. Sorry, but it's not.

The closest thing to a leftist politician in the USA I've seen is Dennis Kucinich (the only USA politician I'd actually consider voting for had I not been fortunate not to have been born there, plus there's something awfully cute about his keebler-elfishness), and Al Gore is not Dennis Kucinich.

Elections here are quite boring because of the extremely small scope of the American political spectrum. When I was in France I went to LCR, PS and UMP rallies during the presidential election, and happened upon an AL rally in Paris during the legislatives. I found the whole thing quite fascinating.

The closest thing to a leftist politician in the USA I've seen is Dennis Kucinich (the only USA politician I'd actually consider voting for had I not been fortunate not to have been born there, plus there's something awfully cute about his keebler-elfishness), and Al Gore is not Dennis Kucinich.

Indeed.

But still, you do have to take the country's point of view into account. Correct or no on an international level, in the scale of the United States Al Gore and many others ARE leftists. It's stupid, I know, but it's what 300 million people have grown up with, just like the population of Sweden has grown up with their spectrum and so on and so forth.

But still, you do have to take the country's point of view into account.

No, I don't, especially not on a non-USA forum.

Correct or no on an international level, in the scale of the United States Al Gore and many others ARE leftists.

You say it yourself, but that is stupid. Al Gore is centrist (you decide which side - see, I can give you that) at his most extreme.

It's stupid, I know, but it's what 300 million people have grown up with, just like the population of Sweden has grown up with their spectrum and so on and so forth.

The thing is, those 300 million people have not grown up with an actual political spectrum, while the other 9 million have.

Elections here are quite boring because of the extremely small scope of the American political spectrum.

Spectrum is stretching it... and, I'd wager your elections are boring since you don't actually even have proper viable political parties, just two huge election machineries. Do they even do anything in between elections?

When I was in France I went to LCR, PS and UMP rallies during the presidential election, and happened upon an AL rally in Paris during the legislatives. I found the whole thing quite fascinating.

I am glad you got the opportunity.

A moderate is simply an ashamed liberal

What do you think of...
Abortion: Infanticide
Death Penalty: Occasionally, one runs into an anachronism best left out of the gene pool.
Stem Cell Research: I'm in favor, provided no life is cut short by it
Enviormentalism/Global Warming: We haven't tracked this long enough to have a basis on which to judge-our last Ice Age, albeit a lesser one, was merely two hundred years ago-a drop in the bucket-we need to watch it longer, and establish a baseline, first
Imperialism: Rudyard Kipling was the bard of Imperialism, both pros and cons-read "Kim" then denounce him. It's something largely misunderstood and misrepresented, and inevitable as things progress. The best basis for a One World Government (which is Imperialism under a different name) is supplied by the United States Constitution.
Surveillence: If you're doing it, isn't it best not used for blackmail?
Communism: Sucks
Fascism: Beats communism
Castro: Is he still alive, even?
Bush: Sadly, the best option available.
Health Care: A family matter.
Taxes: Odious, but a flat tax is best, with user-fees for the amount of government one wishes to access.
Social Security:Needs heavy revamping or discontinuance.
Large Government/Small Government: Medium! Hooray for states rights with central power!
Gun Control: Total opposition-any government worth it's salt accepts the rights of dissidents to oppose it on all fronts
Partisanship: We are all members of opposing parties-so long as that is respected, there is no need to limit the number of parties.

No, I don't, especially not on a non-USA forum.

I meant for the sake of the discussion. After all, we're supposed to bend over backwards to accept and understand your point of view. Why can't you do the same for ours? (Not that I necessarily share it myself. I don't. But that's my personal decision. Nowhere near enough people are going to change their minds like me to make a significant difference.)


You say it yourself, but that is stupid. Al Gore is centrist (you decide which side - see, I can give you that) at his most extreme.

Yes yes yes, I know. 50 years of Cold War propaganda, however, makes us look at him as a leftist. See, Americans were filled every day with propaganda about how evil communism was(along with anything else left-leaning for some reason, probably done because right-leaning viewpoints are easier to manipulate) evil and that we couldn't dare allow anything like it. Of course communism is a failed system, but that's beside the point. Understand who you talk to, Fass. It helps with explaining your point of view and getting across your message. The better you understand the person you're speaking to, the more easily you can get through to them.


The thing is, those 300 million people have not grown up with an actual political spectrum, while the other 9 million have.
I beg to differ. Regardless of my personal opinions about the spectrum, it is just as valid as any other country's spectrum. Had we been talking about, say, Tuvalu, I might be tempted to agree with you, but we're talking about the most powerful country on the planet with a significant portion of the planet's population, and as such it has validity, whether you recognize it or not.

Validity, however, does not render it a truly CORRECT point of view, though. I want to make the distinction clear.

Al Gore is not Strong Liberal, he's Left of Center and an Über environmentalist.


Anyways..

Abortion: A womans right, though not acceptable for 'designer babies'.
Death Penalty: Completely immoral, useless state sanctioned murder.
Stem Cell Research: One of the greatest routes for modern medicine.
Environmentalism/Global Warming: One of the greatest threats and serious issues there is.
Imperialism: Acceptable when it brings Freedom & Democracy to places without it.
Surveillance: Should be tightly controlled and reserved only for real criminals.
Communism: A noble, but fundamentally flawed ideology.
Fascism: One of the most unacceptable forms of government.
Castro: I guess Moore was right about Cuban healthcare..
Bush: An idiot, possibly the worst president, but an OKish person.
Health Care: Universal Healthcare all the way, except for non-necessary cosmetic surgery.
Taxes: Progressive income tax, moderate corporate tax and 'program choice options' for other kinds of taxes.
Social Security: An idea created ahead of its time that will help future generations if it's properly taken care of.
Large Government/Small Government: Against small government as well as massive government, depends on the issue in the end.
Gun Control: Allow everything short of WMD's, but heavy regulation and licensing.
Partisanship: Generally a good idea for many things, though one should not betray there values in the name of compromise.

I've found that "Liberal" seems to have two meanings, depending upon whom you ask - there are center-left social moderates/social democrats who are often described as "Liberals", and then there are Libertarians. I don't know how Libertarians got the label of "Liberals" as well, or whether they had it first or not. But I support calling 'em "Libertarians" instead of "Liberals", in order to escape confusion.

Spectrum is stretching it... and, I'd wager your elections are boring since you don't actually even have proper viable political parties, just two huge election machineries. Do they even do anything in between elections?

Virtually nothing. Of course, elections start earlier and earlier every cycle so eventually we'll get to the point where there is no "between elections".

I forgot to answer this set of questions.


Abortion: Abortion, sadly, has not been so easily solved as it has in Sweden. We've had to deal with a huge amount of dipshittery from conservative idiots. Me, I personally think women have the right to decide for themselves and damn what someone else thinks.

Death Penalty: Absolutely should be banned immediately. It does absolutely no good whatsoever.

Stem Cell Research: I highly favor this and other scientific research. Propaganda from idiots should not stop scientists from investigating possibilities.

Enviormentalism/Global Warming: Let's face it: our ability to live is far more important than profit. We can easily deal with whatever economic pitfalls we might face from whatever measures are necessary, because without them our economy won't mean shit.

Imperialism: I am against imperialism. It's rather idiotic and I don't know why it's even a factor anymore.

Surveillence: Depends on what is meant here. I'm all for lawful, warranted surveillance on those who are genuinely suspicious enough for a court to issue a warrant, but I am wholly against any form of survaillence on the public without a warrant or probable cause. As demonstrated in Great Britain, such a system not only invades privacy, it's a huge freaking waste of money.

Communism: It is a failed political ideology and cannot work unless we eliminate scarcity and/or alter basic human nature.

Fascism: Similarly it is a failed ideology that is absolutely abhorrent.

Castro: Legitimate ruler of Cuba.

Bush: A fool, a moron, a failure as a leader and at any sort of management position. As a person, he could use some work, but he's not all bad.

Health Care: We need an NHS. Period.

Taxes: Taxes are fine with me. I do not object to paying them so much as I may object to how they are used. So long as they are used as they should be and sensibly, they're fine.

Social Security: Required.

Large Government/Small Government: Efficient government, whatever the shape or form. Furthermore, a focus on the federal government. We are a Union, not a Confederation.

Gun Control: Sensible control to keep firearms out of the hands of criminals and those not mentally, physically, or emotionally capable of handling them. Also, sensible restrictions on firing capability, ammo type, and so on and so forth. Beyond that, I'm all in favor of law-abiding citizens owning them. They're a check on the government.

Partisanship: Foolish, idiotic, especially since Fass hit it right: we've basically got two gigantic election machines.

I meant for the sake of the discussion.

In this meme thread where we are supposed to show stances, the meme is flawed. I am not going to participate unless I point out the flaws in the meme, and I did so.

After all, we're supposed to bend over backwards to accept and understand your point of view.

No, you're not. You're just supposed to be educated enough to be able to follow discussions on an international forum. If you're going to insist on using flawed USA terminology to label the politics of the members of said forum, I don't see how you can manage that.

Why can't you do the same for ours? (Not that I necessarily share it myself. I don't. But that's my personal decision. Nowhere near enough people are going to change their minds like me to make a significant difference.)

I can't do it because it's ridiculously and historically wrong.

Yes yes yes, I know. 50 years of Cold War propaganda, however, makes us look at him as a leftist. See, Americans were filled every day with propaganda about how evil communism was(along with anything else left-leaning for some reason, probably done because right-leaning viewpoints are easier to manipulate) evil and that we couldn't dare allow anything like it. Of course communism is a failed system, but that's beside the point. Understand who you talk to, Fass. It helps with explaining your point of view and getting across your message. The better you understand the person you're speaking to, the more easily you can get through to them.

I am not from the USA - I do not need to accept their misconceptions as somehow not that, when they are. What you're saying is "yeah, we got it wrong, but won't you indulge us in our wrongness?" No.

I beg to differ. Regardless of my personal opinions about the spectrum, it is just as valid as any other country's spectrum.

A spectrum requires more than two points. For instance, the rainbow is a spectrum of colour. Red and blue do not make a spectrum. "Rain, sleet, sunshine, cloudiness, snow and so on" are a weather spectrum. Hot and cold are not.

Had we been talking about, say, Tuvalu, I might be tempted to agree with you, but we're talking about the most powerful country on the planet with a significant portion of the planet's population, and as such it has validity, whether you recognize it or not.

Validity, schmalidity - it has no political spectrum to speak of, valid or otherwise.

Virtually nothing. Of course, elections start earlier and earlier every cycle so eventually we'll get to the point where there is no "between elections".

Ugh. I guess the only thing to state is that when those founding fathers of yours stole all those ideas from the French (among others), they did them wrong.

Okee, I'll bite.

Abortion: Meh. Don't really care. I'm a man, so it really doesn't matter for me.

Death Penalty: State sanctioned Murder. Far too much power to be put into the hands of government. I do support alternatives to lifetime incarceration, however.

Stem Cell Research: l33t, w00t

Enviormentalism/Global Warming: Personally, I'm an Environmentalist, but I don't like Federal government dictating how we (the people) should best use and preserve our natural resources.

Imperialism: Boo! Costs too much money.

Surveillance: Boo. Violation of rights.

Communism: Uberboo. Might work for ants, but not for beings that have thought.

Fascism: Track record kinda speaks for itself...

Castro: Meh. Another tin pot dictator of a nation that is completely irrelevant.

Bush: Can't wait for 2008.

Health Care: Skeptical of a British-style NHS. Would rather have the States insure those that cannot afford it.

Taxes: Cut out the waste. Also, shift the burden to the states. I'd rather have my taxes go to the state, where I can see my money in action, rather then the Washington Machine.

Social Security: Would like to see optional privatization. Also, it will not exist when I am ready to draw from it.

Large Government/Small Government: Small Federal government. Larger state government.

Gun Control: Few controls. Very few on who can get them, none on what one can posess.

Partisanship: 3rd party. Please. Oh God, please.

In this meme thread where we are supposed to show stances, the meme is flawed. I am not going to participate unless I point out the flaws in the meme, and I did so.

Alright. Fair enough.


No, you're not. You're just supposed to be educated enough to be able to follow discussions on an international forum. If you're going to insist on using flawed USA terminology to label the politics of the members of said forum, I don't see how you can manage that.

Now hang on. I don't necessarily disagree with you about the points of view being flawed, but why is it that we can't use our terms but you can use yours? What makes yours more valid when it comes to usage? Why can't we define things how we see it and you define things how you see it rather than everyone having to define things one way?


I can't do it because it's ridiculously and historically wrong.

Irrelevant. You're asking us to set aside definitions we've lived by our entire lives in favor of yours. You should be willing to do the same. If our positions were reversed, I would. (I have, in fact, on many occasions.)


I am not from the USA - I do not need to accept their misconceptions as somehow not that, when they are. What you're saying is "yeah, we got it wrong, but won't you indulge us in our wrongness?" No.

Here's the thing: I am a true rarity. I can recognize how wrong the definitions of the American political spectrum are. That's not the point.

The point is that if you want to convince every OTHER American, you have to be able to understand WHY they view things how they do. You don't have to justify it or leave them in their ignorance, since that would be missing the point as well. All you have to do is UNDERSTAND and then use that understanding to show why they are wrong. THAT'S how you get through to someone.


A spectrum requires more than two points. For instance, the rainbow is a spectrum of colour. Red and blue do not make a spectrum. "Rain, sleet, sunshine, cloudiness, snow and so on" are a weather spectrum. Hot and cold are not.

And if it WAS just red and blue, you might have a point. But there are still other points. Only a few, but they are there, and thus it qualifies as a spectrum under this definition.

But that's beside the point because I don't think this is an appropriate way to look at a political spectrum. A political spectrum should be the sum total of all political viewpoints expressed by the well-known(not major, but well-known) parties and independents of a political system.


Validity, schmalidity - it has no political spectrum to speak of, valid or otherwise.

But it does, again whether you recognize that or not.

The fact that Gore is ridiculously called "strongly liberal" tempted me to vote for "communist" - except for the minor detail that I'm not at all communist. It seems rather unfair not to have a category for the large numbers of people who are farther left than Gore. (I do like Gore, though - he's better than most mainstream candidates we've had in recent years, even if I wish he were less of a moderate than he is.)

Now hang on. I don't necessarily disagree with you about the points of view being flawed, but why is it that we can't use our terms but you can use yours?

I am not using "my terms". I am using international terms.

What makes yours more valid when it comes to usage?

International terms for an international forum.

Why can't we define things how we see it and you define things how you see it rather than everyone having to define things one way?

Because for a language to work as a conveyor of meaning, the words must have meanings that mean the same thing to the people speaking it. Sure, you could call a lift a "wallmagag" if you want, and by the word "lift" mean "titmouse", but those are not standard meanings and will not make sense to someone who adheres to a standard. Like it or not, on an international level the USA terms you use are not only not standard, but are in fact wrong in the sense that they label someone who is left-wing "liberal", when liberalism is a right-wing economic (and to a certain extent social) philosophy. Not to mention referring to people like Hillary Clinton or Al Gore as socialists! Hah! The latter is outright laughable.

Irrelevant. You're asking us to set aside definitions we've lived by our entire lives in favor of yours.

I don't care that you lived your whole lives with definitions that are wrong. It doesn't change their wrongness.

You should be willing to do the same. If our positions were reversed, I would. (I have, in fact, on many occasions.)

I am not willing to do the same, as this isn't a USA forum or venue. This is an international forum. International definitions for an international forum. Indulging you only solidifies your misconceptions and does nothing to educate you.

Here's the thing: I am a true rarity. I can recognize how wrong the definitions of the American political spectrum are. That's not the point.

That is the very point - if you are "rarity", then the time for indulging your countrymen's misconceptions is long since passed. You may have grown up calling a fork a shovel, but when you come to a dinner outside your family, you will be made aware of the proper names for the utensils.

The point is that if you want to convince every OTHER American, you have to be able to understand WHY they view things how they do. You don't have to justify it or leave them in their ignorance, since that would be missing the point as well. All you have to do is UNDERSTAND and then use that understanding to show why they are wrong. THAT'S how you get through to someone.

I understand that they got these things wrong, and I know why. That has no bearing on my will to indulge. Liberalism is not left-wing, just like red is not the colour of the right-wing. Sorry hon, but those notions were invented in Europe and most of the world manages to use them correctly on an international level. You can use whatever definitions you want in Hickville, Tennessee, but we aren't there.

And if it WAS just red and blue, you might have a point. But there are still other points. Only a few, but they are there, and thus it qualifies as a spectrum under this definition.

When was the last time you had more than two parties in your parliament? (Here, again, I don't care that you don't call your parliament a parliament - it is a parliament) Was that during the last 100 years?

But that's beside the point because I don't think this is an appropriate way to look at a political spectrum.

Obviously, since you don't understand the concept of a spectrum.

A political spectrum should be the sum total of all political viewpoints expressed by the well-known(not major, but well-known) parties and independents of a political system.

And when you have a two party state, those insignificants you mention are nothing but exceptions that confirm the rule. If you had had a political spectrum, you never would have been able to call left-wingers liberals, or have the notion that Al Gore could ever, ever be called a "far leftist". That that happens, and is considered not a plain old loony remark, speaks volumes on your lack of a spectrum.

But it does, again whether you recognize that or not.

It doesn't have to do with what I recognise or not, it has to do with reality.

Abortion: For
Death Penalty: Against
Stem Cell Research: For
Enviormentalism/Global Warming: Good/Bad
Imperialism: Against
Surveillence: Against
Communism: For
Fascism: Against
Castro: An idiot
Bush: An idiot
Health Care: Universal
Taxes: For, when used properly
Social Security: For
Large Government/Small Government: Enormous
Gun Control: For
Partisanship: Meh

Abortion: Should be allowed.
Death Penalty: Only for people who sexually abuse children
Stem Cell Research: For
Environmentalism/Global Warming: Important issue. Something MUST be done.
Imperialism: Has not really worked, so no.
Surveillance: In public spaces in the same way as London, is fine with me. It has proved to decrease the rate of crime and only people who brake the law has to be worried about being survied.
Communism: The most ineffecient system ever.
Fascism: Inefficient, but less then communism
Castro: His end is near.
Bush: Made bad choices. But can't really blame him as his Presidency has not been the easiest in American history.
Health Care: A human right.
Taxes: Needed. Our system can't function without them.
Social Security: For everybody in a society
Large Government/Small Government: Well, large enough to run the country in a good way. Large enough to take care all all social classes and their neeeds. Not however too big and all dominatng.
Gun Control: Strict regulations
Partisanship: Populism stinks. But having as many parties in Denmark as we have is, in my opinion, a couple too many.

Abortion: For all!
Death Penalty: For everyone else.
Stem Cell Research: No.
Enviormentalism/Global Warming: Everyone should just open their fridge at the same time.
Imperialism: Good Clean Fun. :)
Surveillence: In every TV.
Communism: Too fascist.
Fascism: Too communist.
Castro: Painful. :(
Bush: I prefer freshly shaven.
Health Care: Makes imitating Jackass less expensive.
Taxes: I should start collecting them.
Social Security: Weird name for what it is really.
Large Government/Small Government: Which side am I on?
Gun Control: Gets in the way of my pillaging.
Partisanship: Is that like the Jefferson Starship I've heard so much about?

Abortion: Not effective enough. I want more chainsaws and screaming.
Death Penalty: Yes, but only in the most extreme of cases.
Stem Cell Research: Absolutely.
Environmentalism/Global Warming: We're fucked, but we may as well put an effort into saving the environment as best we can.
Imperialism:Bad.
Surveillance: In public, fine. In private, hell no.
Communism: It's a decently shitty system.
Fascism: A system that actually works, yet still sucks for everyone.
Castro: Castro is obviously the Highlander. He will never die. (There can only be one!)
Bush: A shitty president, and doesn't seem to understand global affairs very well.
Health Care: Free, but with a private sector.
Taxes: Well, we need it.
Social Security: Needs to be fixed.
Large Government/Small Government: Large, but not too large.
Gun Control: Not for total bans, but very, very strict restrictions.
Partisanship: Thar be no partisanship upon this vessel, scallywags! *Swigs rum*

I actually admire the economic ideology of Teddy, even if he did borrow some of it from Mussolini.

Ugh. I guess the only thing to state is that when those founding fathers of yours stole all those ideas from the French (among others), they did them wrong.

US revolution: 1776
US constitution: 1787
French revolution: 1789
Random pop culture reference: priceless.

Oh, and for the record, opening your frtidge doesn't cool things down, as fridges don't simply make heat go away -- it transfers them out the back (or bottom) of the fridge. Since there's some ehat generated from the treansfering 9just as sound is created too), leaving your fridge open for a while will only make things HOTTER.

Abortion: A woman’s right.
Death Penalty: Been banned in the UK for forty-odd years. Good riddance.
Stem Cell Research: I’m all for it, but I am a bit wary about the designer baby thing.
Environmentalism/Global Warming: I’d rather not have to go around in a boat all day.
Imperialism: Load of crap. Essentially fucked up Africa and now is fucking up the Near East. Again.
Surveillance: We really don’t need the police watching us 24/7.
Communism: Much better than Fascism.
Fascism: Worse than Communism
Castro: Not too sure about him, really. There are nice people out there.
Bush: There's worse, but there also are a lot of people who are better.
Health Care: National Health Service.
Taxes: Tax the rich.
Social Security: Need it.
Large Government/Small Government: Big, probably.
Gun Control: I totally agree with it.
Partisanship: I do like having proper choices when I vote. A two-party system is a load of crap.

US revolution: 1776
US constitution: 1787
French revolution: 1789

You do know who Charles-Louis de Secondat, baron de La Brède et de Montesquieu is? Of course you don't - I doubt they teach you in your schools where your founders got "their" ideas from (you're probably under the false assumption they thought of them themselves). So, you seem to think that a year in which a backwater colony had an uprising somehow has any bearing on the fact that the insurrectionists got all their state-building ideas from other thinkers of the Age of Enlightenment.

Abortion: It should be legal, and it should be the woman's right to choose.

Death Penalty: Thankfully it's banned almost everywhere, except in some benighted backwaters that seem to have escaped enlightenment.

Stem Cell Research: Scientific progress should not be stifled for the sake of petty political point scoring. In any case, a nation that does legislate against it will fall behind those who don't.

Environmentalism/Global Warming: They're not the same thing. That some people think that they are is truly saddening.

Imperialism: Never lasts. Most of the world recognises this.

Surveillance: I live in the most-watched society on the planet. I have no objections to being observed whilst in public places, but it needs to stop there.

Communism: Nice idea in theory, impossible to implement.

Fascism: Tired old idea. These days most often used as a pejorative term that has nothing to do with the ideology.

Castro: Don't care.

Bush: He'll be gone soon. I'm not holding my breath in hope of his replacement being any better, though.

Health Care: Someone else labelled it as a "human right". I agree. The old saw about being able to judge a society by the way that they treat their elderly can be applied equally well to how they treat those who are sick.

Taxes: Essential. There is no other way to build and maintain a decent level of public services, and - to my mind - the efficacy of public services are a measure of the health of a society.

Social Security: Essential, see Taxes.

Large Government/Small Government: Relative terms, meaningless category.

Gun Control: Touchy subject for me. I'd like to believe that my fellow man can be trusted to own a gun, for the same reason that I like to believe that my neighbours are not likely to break into my house and rob me. I further like to believe that a gun is simply a tool, which can have legitimate uses. Some kind of stringent regulation might be the answer, but I've never finalised a position.

Partisanship: Party politics sickens me.

I actually admire the economic ideology of Teddy, even if he did borrow some of it from Mussolini.
Wasn't Theodore Roosevelt long before Mussolini?

What do you think of...
Abortion: The desruction of a few inert cells which can save a life.
Death Penalty: No. I call the Marquis de Sade's argument that the state becomes complicitly criminal in sentencing the accused to death.
Stem Cell Research: Worth it.
Enviormentalism/Global Warming: Of course. World's dying fast...:(
Imperialism: Workers of the world!
Surveillence: In private buildings, sure. Not in public.
Communism: Is the ultimate economic system, has never been implemented yet, and requires a Trotskyist approach, I feel, in order to be, nowadays.
Fascism: Is the scourge of the political scene.
Castro: A legend in his lifetime. Not without flaws, obviously, and not truly communist, considering his complicity with Stalin (Boo!), but better than many Western leaders.
Bush: The figurehead of a plutocracy running an illegal war and thwarting every move to save the planet.
Health Care: Government provided.
Taxes: As neccessary. Following the Swedish model.
Social Security: Yes.
Large Government/Small Government: As needed to administer state programs, healthcare, education, etc...
Gun Control: Yeah, pretty much. I see no good reason to allow guns into the poulace for "fun" or "sport", much less "home defence", given the statistics.
Partisanship: In what sense?

I'm on the extreme left.

Abortion: A woman's right to choose is a part of her fundamental liberty.
Death Penalty: Against. That's not a decision I want in the hands of the state, at least not this one.
Stem Cell Research: Pro.
Enviormentalism/Global Warming: It's time to stop destroying the planet, and it's time to stop thinking we can do whatever we want to all the non-human inhabitants of it.
Imperialism: Disgusting and unjustifiable. People should rule themselves.
Surveillence: I don't like being watched. No, thanks.
Communism: A worthy objective.
Fascism: No, thanks.
Castro: Murderous dictator.
Bush: His hands are soaked in blood.
Health Care: Universal public health care.
Taxes: Redistribute wealth.
Social Security: A good thing.
Large Government/Small Government: Government should be local and decentralized.
Gun Control: I can support moderate restrictions--background checks, etc.--but I think the right to self-defense is very important and should be broadly interpreted.
Partisanship: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Much as I hate quoting Barry Goldwater.

Abortion: Pro choice in all cases (except "designer babies").
Death penalty: Against in all cases.
Stem cell research: Support.
Environmentalism/Global Warming: Even if global warming isn't caused by humans (and that's a big if) there's still pollution that needs to be curtailed.
Imperialism: Ick. Though I suppose cultural imperialism is unavoidable.
Surveillance: Unacceptable without warrants. People can see you in public, but they can't legally stalk you.
Communism: The maximization of freedom.
Fascism: The absence of freedom.
Castro: Something of a turd.
Bush: A bigger turd.
Health Care: Should be socialized, as should the medicine industry (a large part of it is anyway), but even if the medicine industry isn't, health care should be. If they must, they can do the British system where people can buy out of it.
Taxes: Income taxes good, sales taxes bad.
Social Security: Need it; don't privatize it.
Large Government/Small Government: Both and neither. (Direct democracy).
Gun Control: Mostly against, though I recognize that gun control does not mean "ban all guns"
Partisanship: Is fine, though it would be better if most people didn't believe there were only two positions to be partisan about.

Partisanship: COMPROMISE, PEOPLE! IT'S A GOOD THING!!!!!!!!Ah, the false compromise/middle ground fallacy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_compromise
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_ground

I'm a moderate conservative with a liberal "tweek" on some issues.

Abortion: I view this the same way I view genocide. Banned, except for medical emergencies.

Death Penalty: States decide this one. I really don't care as long as we get the prison population down.

Stem Cell Research:I support this

Environmentalism/Global Warming: It's happening, but our (human) role in it is minimal, as well as our capablity to counter it. We should clean ourselves up, though.

Imperialism: ...yeah...

Surveillance: Inconsistent with the idea of freedom

Communism: Worst form of government/economy EVER

Fascism: Better than communism, but not by much

Castro: He's gonna croak soon anyway...

Bush: He's definately not a conservative/republican. Who lowers taxes and
RAISES SPENDING??!? Inconsistant with us financial conservatives.

Health Care: Privatized. With minimal government support for veterans, the
mentally disabled, and single parent moms.

Taxes: Annoying, but a necessity. Minimal taxes as feasibly possible.

Social Security: Only for vets, single moms, or mentally disabled.

Large Government/Small Government: Size of government should vary according to the situation. In times of peace, small government, dedicated to the upkeep of a judicial system, a police force, and a military. The government should have a hand in the market to ensure fairness, but otherwise, the market should remain as free as possible.

Gun Control: Pro-gun with background checks.

Partisanship: The ideological conflict between the right and left is the most counterproductive thing ever to hit the country. Dems and Reps don't try to compromise that much anymore, which makes our legislature ineffictive. People reject otherwise good ideas because its supported by those "jesus-crazed, ignorant, unsophisticated" conservatives or because its supported by those "godless, hedonist, immoral" liberals. Worst thing to happen to the country EVER.

Gay Marriage: Support it

Affirmative Action: Racist program. Don't support.

War in Iraq: We need to stay there as long as possible. It has the unique possibility of devolving into a failed state and a terrorist breeding ground. No time tables. We stay there until "victory", i.e. Iraq is politically and financially secure.

War in Iran: Support, but only if we have the full backing of our European allies and/or China.

Free Trade: I am a devout protectionalist.

Immigration: No amnesty, because amnesty will encourage more to come. Illegals go to prison until they decide to return to their mother country. The border should be fiercly patrolled.

Abortion: I view this the same way I view genocide.

Partisanship: The ideological conflict between the right and left is the most counterproductive thing ever to hit the country. Dems and Reps don't try to compromise that much anymore, which makes our legislature ineffictive.

Nice to know genocide doesn't bother you much....

anyone who is against the pro-choice position is not a moderate. Sorry, but it's not. Anybody who would outlaw abortion can not be described as moderate.

Simply put, wanting to deny fundamental basic human liberties of bodily autonomy is not a moderate position. Sorry, but it's not.

When I say moderate, I mean as a whole. Keep in mind lots of Republicans won't even admit that Global Warming exists (which is stupid), would not have any restrictions on guns, and would abolish social security as soon as look at it. And I don't support the death penalty much, its just that with some dangerous criminals, you can't afford to risk them escaping. As for abortion, you can't deny it's baby killing. Even if it is the whole right to choose and everything.

As for Castro, he's just an evil bastard. !CUBA LIBRE!
Bush is bad. I'll admit that.
But would you go so far as to compare him to say...Benito Mussolini? Bush might be bad, but not as bad as he could be. At least he's trying to do what he thinks is right. He's not trying to do everything for personal gain at least.

And I get it about the Al Gore thing. Sitting over here on the right, he sure looks like a liberal. And unfortunately I don't know how to mess with the poll option, so unless someone can tell me how, its going to stay like that. But I've heard you all about that.

Ah, the false compromise/middle ground fallacy:

The country has such a wide, diverse range of opinions that compromise is really the only option. Ideological warfare is what led up to the Civil War, as well as the general unwillingness to compromise. Of course, back then, compromise, when it did happen, didn't do much to help.

Abortion: Never unless the woman's life is threatened.
Death Penalty: Acceptable against terrorists.
Stem Cell Research: Sure.
Environmentalism/Global Warming: "The Great Lie"
Imperialism: Sure.
Surveillance: I dunno... only if absolutely neccessary.
Communism: THE HOLY ENEMY
Fascism: Not that bad if it allows a free market.
Castro: I don't care.
Bush: He's OK.
Health Care: NHS = good, but its not a human right
Taxes: They're a little bit high, but they're OK for the welfare state.
Social Security: Good.
Large Government/Small Government: The Government should be as large as the people need it to be.
Gun Control: Some people should be allowed guns, militias are good.
Partisanship: Well, its bound to happen...

Nice to know genocide doesn't bother you much....

It does. A lot. As does the polarization of the country. But I'm not going to surrender my views on abortion to stop that polarization.

The country has such a wide, diverse range of opinions that compromise is really the only option. Ideological warfare is what led up to the Civil War, as well as the general unwillingness to compromise. Of course, back then, compromise, when it did happen, didn't do much to help.While it is true that it is probably necessary to compromise in order to achieve things, it is not true that a compromise is necessarily better than either of the uncompromised positions.
Looking at the slavery issue, the positions were either free the slaves or don't free the slaves. Should there have been a compromise?

"Moderate" merely means "not extreme" and changes definition depending on where it's used. American moderates, for instance, are rightwingers.
(For a better understanding of political labels and categories, read this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=543369).)

Abortion: Up to the women.
Death Penalty: Disapprove. Killing is wrong, and killing killers doesn't make it better.
Stem Cell Research: Undecided.
Enviormentalism/Global Warming: On environmentalism: It's coo' if you can keep the mental out of it. On global warming: Why wait to find out who's fault it is until it's too late?
Imperialism: Benign Racism in some cases, malignant racism in the rest.
Surveillence: I like my privacy. It's a bit iffy in public.
Communism: The GDR was bad.
Fascism: The 3rd Reich was worse.
Castro: Meh. He's just one of many on the German national team.
Bush: There's worse, but that's no excuse.
Health Care: Fundamental, my dear Watson.
Taxes: Gotta pay for roads.
Social Security: Necessary.
Large Government/Small Government: Too much bureaucracy is bad, as is too little regulation.
Gun Control: Don't need em that bad.
Partisanship: Easy answer: More parties.

It does. A lot.

So even when one of the parties openly advocates something you see as equivalent to genocide, you nevertheless insist that compromise and non-partisanship is best?

But I'm not going to surrender my views on abortion to stop that polarization.

So why bother objecting to the polarization?

Instead, you should say, "In theory I would like a more united country, but the Democratic Party is so irredeemably evil that we must stand strong against its mass murder of unborn fetuses whatever the cost."

Gay Marriage: Support it

Affirmative Action: Racist program. Don't support.

War in Iraq: We need to stay there as long as possible. It has the unique possibility of devolving into a failed state and a terrorist breeding ground. No time tables. We stay there until "victory", i.e. Iraq is politically and financially secure.

War in Iran: Support, but only if we have the full backing of our European allies and/or China.

Free Trade: I am a devout protectionalist.

Immigration: No amnesty, because amnesty will encourage more to come. Illegals go to prison until they decide to return to their mother country. The border should be fiercly patrolled.

Gay Marriage: OK with it. Just don't force churches to perform the marriages if they object to it. Seperation of Church and State.

Affirmative Action: I'd say from a completely unbiased standpoint that it's reverse-racist. So in other words, racist despite the fact that it's supposed to counter racism.

Free Trade: Sure.

Immigration: Pardon those already here, but take better measures to keep more from coming. And chuck out those who come after a certain date.

Iraq War: It wasn't the best idea (but had it's upsides. Sadam is dead, is he not?) but we're there now anyway. It dosn't make sense to not see the whole thing through. If we leave the job half done, then Iraq will be even more of a mess than when we came, especially now that progress is starting to occur.

Iran: Tell that FUCKER IN CHARGE THERE TO STOP IT WITH THOSE DAMNED NUKES!!!!! If he really wants nuclear power, he should accept an international team to come in there to build it for him. Problem solved. As for war with 'em, if we have all of our allies' support (EVERY LAST SCRAP OF NATO, for a start).

Glad to see someone who sees reason.



Remember people, Guiliani loooooves puppies!
Vote Guiliani '08!

While it is true that it is probably necessary to compromise in order to achieve things, it is not true that a compromise is necessarily better than either of the uncompromised positions.
Looking at the slavery issue, the positions were either free the slaves or don't free the slaves. Should there have been a compromise?

Yeah, there are cases where compromise is a failure, when you have to fight for your beliefs and what is "right" (that being a very subjunctive opinion). I guess I'm not referring to serious issues, but on the trivial issues that people get divided on.

For some reason, a lot of yanks don't know political history

Nor do you, if you want to ignore the liberal roots of much of left-wing thought.

You would, of course, already know what "equivocation" means.

Yeah, there are cases where compromise is a failure, when you have to fight for your beliefs and what is "right" (that being a very subjunctive opinion). I guess I'm not referring to serious issues, but on the trivial issues that people get divided on.Indeed. Therefore, while compromise might be a good idea, it is silly to hold it up as something good in and of itself.

but on the trivial issues that people get divided on.

Which ones?

*****

Gay Marriage: It should be legal.

Affirmative Action: Strongly in favor.

Free Trade: The US should get rid of its tariffs and subsidies. Yesterday.

Immigration: Full, universal amnesty and more or less open borders.

Iraq War: A horrific atrocity. We've shown ourselves hopeless at actually fixing the catastrophe there, so we might as well leave now.

Iran: Isn't causing two disasters in the region enough?

Which ones?

Ones in day to day governance. Apparently (so I've been told) with the advent of camera phones (among other things), that republicans and democrats are unwilling to meet with each other for fear of having rumors circulating about them defecting or otherwise betraying their party. In the old days, this was necessary to hammer out important parts of a bill. Ronald Reagan used to meet with his political enemies and work problems out over dinner. I don't worship compromise when there is a real, serious, life changing issue at work, but in day to day governance, it's vital. Like hammering out a tax code or something.

Abortion: Should be allowed.
Death Penalty: :mad: Should not happen.
Stem Cell Research: Should be allowed.
Enviormentalism/Global Warming: :)/:(
Imperialism: :(
Surveillence: :(
Communism: :(
Fascism: :(
Castro: don't like him
Bush: don't like him
Health Care: everyone should have it
Taxes: good, I guess
Social Security: good
Large Government/Small Government: I don't know
Gun Control: I think guns are bad but I don't know how much they should be limited.

Wasn't Theodore Roosevelt long before Mussolini?

I'm pretty sure he was. And Teddy was better. Hooray for reform, with democracy and Republicans! And Hooray for Big Stick Diplomacy!!

But Mussolini had some good ideas and was good with politics. His military policy was...how to put this nicely...crap. Italy has only two higher alert levels: Ineffective military maneuvers and c

Remember kiddies, people will agree to do all sorts of things if they're looking down the barrel of a gun!:D

This poll would have actually been decent if not for the last option, which completely detracts from the otherwise balanced nature of the poll.

Abortion: Legal

Death Penalty: Illegal

Marriage: Legal for both straight and gay

Stem Cell Research: Legal and publicly finded

Enviormentalism/Global Warming: We need to employ green policies and provide incentives to companies who change and punish those who don't reform their practices.

Imperialism: Evil and unnecessary

Surveillence: Not necessary

Communism: its moderate cousin socialism would work

Fascism: unnecessary evil

Castro: indifferent

Bush: just a monkey in human clothing

Health Care: universal

Taxes: a necessary evil

Social Security: a good safety net

Large Government/Small Government: big government that provides a well balanced set of social programmes that help all people from different walks of life.

Gun Control: completely controlled; should be out of the hands of civilians, and rigorous screening processes should be in place to scan incoming packages to check for illegal firearms. Farmers and rural households would not be faced with the same strict requirements as people living in towns and cities.

I don't know about decent. Unactionable, perhaps, but certainly not decent. It's missing a big chunk of left.

I've seen way worse. If that one option was changed, it would be semi-decent because the person is attempting to reflect different views.

Abortion position: A non-issue in my mind, but I don't see huge reasons to restrict it overmuch.
Death Penalty: Never.
Stem Cell research: Works for me
Global Warming: There's a big reason for us to be concerned, and to actually do something.
Imperialism/interventionism: Sovereignty is overrated, and we ought to. consider the fact that knocking over an awful state is something tolerable.
Surveillance: In public, sure, never in private.
Communism: Busted-ass, degenerate system that really shouldn't even get a second thought.
Fascism: Sucks teh balls.
Castro: Can we even say for certain that he's alive?
Dubya: Sucks teh balls.
Health Care: Busted-ass, degenerate hybrid system currently in place. Nearly anything would be better (besides abolition of hospitals, that is).
Taxes: I'll pay 'em, but I reserve the right to bitch about them constantly.
Social Security: It's busted, I'm not going to get a dime when I retire, and I ought to figure out a way to scam it so I can get my oney now.
Govenrment: Political appointees dick over competent governance daily, thus it's a fatally flawed entity.
Gun control: People need to be responsible with their firearms. Every time they aren't, they risk the maintenance of their right to 'em.
Partisanship: KILLLLLL!!!!!!! KILLLLLLLLL!!!!! I KULL THE KONQUERER!!!!!!!!!!!! KILLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!

Ugh. I guess the only thing to state is that when those founding fathers of yours stole all those ideas from the French (among others), they did them wrong.

Umm...the French surrender-monkeys copied US.

Abortion: Baby Killing? So what? We kill all the time. Until we can guarantee a woman will never get pregnant unless she wants to, it's none of my business.
Death Penalty: Retroactive abortion.
Stem Cell Research: All for it!
Enviormentalism/Global Warming: Not enough baseline data to determine whether climate change is good or bad or even manmade. Nuke the Gay Baby Whales for Jesus!
Imperialism: No longer possible except on a corporate level.
Surveillence: "When you're in public, people can SEE YOU!!" Not if I see you first.
Communism: Often confused with authoritarianism.
Fascism: see communism
Castro: Great name for a mage.
Bush: I don't shave every day. Why should she?
Health Care: Tanstaafl.
Taxes: See Gov't answer below..
Social Security: Will be gone by the time I need it.
Large Government/Small Government: I'm an anarchist, so what we have now is fine. You're free to make up rules, I'm free to ignore them.
Gun Control: Used to be for it, until someone pointed out that if guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns.
Partisanship: Part of the "Bread and Circuses" sideshow.

BTW I find any linear political spectrum (Left v. Right, Liberal v. Conservative) laughably restrictive, to the point of considering it smokescreen to distract from real issues.

This poll would have actually been decent if not for the last option, which completely detracts from the otherwise balanced nature of the poll.I don't know about decent. Unactionable, perhaps, but certainly not decent. It's missing a big chunk of left.

Abortion: Legal and safe.
Death Penalty: Unjustifiably expensive relative to life imprisonment
Stem Cell Research: The future of medical research
Enviormentalism/Global Warming: A serious threat.
Imperialism: Military force does not justify rule
Surveillence: Only ever with a judicial warrant
Communism: Bad economics
Fascism: Too repressive and nationalistic
Castro: Has his good and bad points. Should be providing healthcare and education without authoritarianism, as so many other leaders do.
Bush: Incompetent.
Health Care: Don't care who provides it, so long as its free and available to all.
Taxes: A necessary part of society.
Social Security: Necessary.
Large Government/Small Government: So long as its large enough to provide necessary services.
Gun Control: Tight, Strict background checks and licensing, safety locks fitted as standard and no automatic weapons.
Partisanship: Don't mind political parties, but I'd prefer a PR voting system to encourage more parties.

I forgot to answer this set of questions.


Castro: Legitimate ruler of Cuba.


The fucker came in, chucked out the old leader (who admittedly was a douchebag), then declared himself the leader with the support of a crazed minority! He said "Elections? What elections? The people have already chosen!" Which was, of course, total bullshit. Given a choice, people would have elected someone else, especially if everyone knew the fucker was a commie. Cubans supported him because they thought he would bring democracy back to Cuba, not more dictatorship. He is NOT a legitimate leader. As a the son of a Cuban exile, I am disgusted by this assesment of Castro. Support for him is one thing, but don't make him out to be something he's not.

I've seen way worse. If that one option was changed, it would be semi-decent because the person is attempting to reflect different views."There's worse is no excuse".

Abortion: Cut it out at any time, there's too many of us anyways.

Death Penality: A very useful thing, keeps criminal population down, and a bit of rope is cheeper than feeding someone for life.

Stem Cell Research: One of the beat things since sliced bread.

Enviormentalism/Global Warming: A problem, start putting up solar pannels in nevada ASAP

Imperialism: Bad, very bad.

Surveillence: severe breach of human rights, only with judical warrant, and even then, use sparingly

Communism: "A system in which all receve an equal share of goods and have an equal share of the power" whats not to like?

Fascism: The worst idea ever conceived by humanity.

Castro: Nuts, in charge of a small island, why is he such a big deal?

Bush: gone in a year, thankfuly

Health Care: free, provided to all without question, (cosmetic surgery excluded.)

Taxes: Tax the rich, feed the poor, untill the rich are no more

Social Security: keep it
Large Government/Small Government: Heavily regulate buisness, keep out of our private lives.

Gun Control: You can have my guns when I run out of ammo.

Partisanship: killing this country, and a minor form of racism.

Abortion: Can/should be used in some cases(i.e. rape, if the mother's life is in danger), but I think there are far too many.

Death Penalty: Keep it, it deters crime.

Stem Cell Research: Not really a wedge issue since they figured out how to get stem cells without using embryos.

Enviormentalism/Global Warming: We should to our part to take care of the environment and eventually phase out the use of oil for the most part, but I believe global warming is overhyped.

Imperialism: Doesn't work, never will. But I think its wrong to compare the war in Iraq to the colonization of Africa.

Surveillence: Oppose it because it should not be a part of a free society.

Communism: A terrible form of government that abuses its people and leads to economic stagnation.

Fascism: Even worse then communism.

Castro: Whackjob. But the Castro dynasty probably doesn't have long left, and virtually the only ally left to Cuba is the Chavez regime in Venezuela, so I don't consider Castro a big threat.

Bush: An underrated president. He has made some mistakes, but he isn't the evil monster he is sometimes portrayed to be.

Health Care: A free market solution is the best answer.

Taxes: Tax cuts for all!

Social Security: Privatize it.

Large Government/Small Government: The less government, the better.

Gun Control: The 2nd Amendment gurantees the right of the citizenry to bear arms. Of course, some guns(AKs, other automatic weapons) need to have controls, but overall, I'm in opposition to gun control.

Partisanship: Bad for America, its gotten worse ever since Iraq.

What do you think of...
Abortion: Personally I believe it is wrong except in special cases, but I wouldn't stop someone from having one.
Death Penalty: Why not.
Stem Cell Research: Sure.
Enviormentalism/Global Warming: The pollution will affect us first and already is, so Global Warming is not the main issue here.
Imperialism: No thanks?
Surveillence: So long as there are no cameras in my house or chips in my body, I'm fine with it.
Communism: Didn't work in the past.
Fascism: Leaves a bad aftertaste.
Castro: Who cares?
Bush: His terms are pretty much over.
Health Care: Could come in handy.
Taxes: If everyone pays them.
Social Security: Meh..*hoards money under mattress*
Large Government/Small Government:Good Government. Lol..
Gun Control: Control yes, outlawing guns no.
Partisanship: As a member of the Anti-Partisan Party, I have no comment.

Umm...the French surrender-monkeys copied US.

I would love to see you back that up.

First, a little food for thought.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_de_Secondat%2C_baron_de_Montesquieu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment

That'll get you started.

Abortion: An individual decision between a woman and her conception of God. No uterus, no deciding opinion. Against abortion? Don't have one. As birth control, it's abhorrent. I don't know where that puts me, and frankly, I don't care.

Death Penalty: I find it ironic that those who call themselves "pro-life" are often in favor of this. Personally, I think someone who can be proved beyond any reasonable doubt that they've committed an offense deemed by society to be worthy of death should have some good come of them. Organ harvesting, experimentation, IEDs, anything that might help the rest of us in some small way (at the very least, they should be made to do "all those jobs Americans won't do for a wage nobody can reasonably live on" so that we may regulate immigration and eliminate illegals). Also, I think that the death penalty is useless against people who aren't afraid to die. Start using it on bankers who launder drug money and assist kingpins when those kingpins are brought down, and your stupid "war on drugs" would take a very different direction from the complete cluster-fuck it's in now.

Stem Cell Research: Since some folks believe that every menstruating fertile woman who's ever had unprotected intercourse with a fertile man (or used a contraceptive improperly or had one fail) and had a fertilized egg sloughed out of her uterus is a murderer or serial killer, I think "ridiculous" no longer applies to opposition to this research. If it's God's Will that you be sterile, who are you to go and get fertilization therapies and zygote implantations (leaving how many zygotes that don't implant in the uterus, or worse, how many quintuplet births to a couple who were only capable of supporting one child)? Mighty selective, these moral crusaders.

Environmentalism/Global Warming: Follow the money. Once a viable, exploitable alternative to fossil fuels is discovered, this problem will be seriously addressed. Until then, too many people making too much money for the US Congress to do anything but bluster ("here's your campaign contribution, Senator..."). I notice that campaign finance reform isn't on your list. Tell me: what gets in the way of more good ideas than money spent opposing them...spent by those for whom the status quo is too good to let go? How much money is enough?

Imperialism: What's left to conquer? Let's get our own houses in order, shall we?

Surveillance: Public places -- good idea. Trouble is, who watches and how is the footage used?

Communism: Never really been tried in any way recognizable to Marx. As it was tried, a decidedly abject failure. Unless you count Cuba, I suppose, but having never been to a genuinely communist nation, I suppose my opinion doesn't carry much weight. Now, if only the pundits and other talking heads who have ALSO not been to Cuba or Vietnam or anywhere else for that matter...if only they would think the same of their own opinions. A man can dream.

Fascism: Comes in many varieties on a range of scales from families to federations.

Castro: Love him or hate him, you can't deny he's done a good job pissing of a certain faction of the US...for far longer than anyone predicted. My question is, why couldn't we just leave him alone after the missile crisis, or at least until after the USSR collapsed? Oh, wait, apart from the trade restrictions, we have -- just like we have with North Korea. Now why didn't we just leave Saddam Hussein alone to suffer in anonymity? It couldn't be oil, could it?

Bush: Like his father, just doesn't get it.

Health Care: Either explain to me why a hospital charges so much for a pair of aspirin or give us single-payer health coverage. Someone's making obscene profits on the premise of denying coverage to those who paid for it, and that's the biggest load of bullshit ever sold. Insurance reform now, please.

Taxes: You like the roads? The armed forces? Power grid? Clean water? National Parks? Free K-12 education? Police force? Fire department & ambulances? Myriad other things you might take for granted? That said, however, there are good taxes and bad taxes. Government's job should be to figure out which is which and eliminate the ones that do more harm than good...instead of figuring out where to channel taxpayer dollars into their home districts to ensure re-election...remember campaign finance reform?

Social Security: Absolutely necessary, but needs re-thinking. In no way should it be allowed into the hands of stock traders and other hucksters, but welfare and other entitlements need streamlining.

Large Government/Small Government: An actual serious analysis of what government's role should be coupled with the initiative to take that analysis and tailor the size of government to fit it. We need the SEC to make sure regular people aren't scammed by unscrupulously greedy assholes (Tyco, Global Crossing, Enron, Adelphia, and so on) -- we DON'T need the FCC establishing censorship in a nation which prays so hard to the free market god. Guess what? For decades now, broadcast media receivers have had two very important features: one changes the channel, and the other turns it off. If "the market" is so precious to all you capitalists, why not let it decide what stays on the air? And this is where I'm a complete, admitted hypocrite: PBS/NPR keeps its funding. Why? Because "the market" is a lowest common denominator machine, and I want to watch Nova and hear Morning Edition. I'll pay for it, too, but if I'm in the minority, I'll cede some tax dollars to keep it going.

Gun Control: Give deer guns, and then you'll have yourself a sport. Okay, seriously. A gun is a tool. Tools aren't inherently good or evil, people are (in varying degrees depending upon mood and circumstance). That's why there needs to be regulation, but absolutely no bans except for military-grade firearms (grenades, fully automatic rifles, aircraft carriers, you know, the good stuff). We have a nationwide system that does a pretty good job of keeping track of who can drive legally. Why not one for guns? That way, if you use your gun in an armed robbery, you never get to legally own another. And if it's stolen and used in a crime, you'll be fine (if you didn't abet the theft), because nobody punishes the owner of a car that was stolen and used criminally. Why is this such a difficult thing? Sure, guns are smaller and easier to conceal than cars. So, lo-jack the lot of 'em. Like the pro-PATRIOT Act floggers always say: "if you're not doing anything illegal, you've got nothing to worry about."

Partisanship: Sells books and ad space. So long as that's the case, we'll have partisanship. I don't know the solution, other than urging people to seek out more than the one set of opinions they're getting. I'm a lifelong NPR listener who, when NPR is off, tunes to right-wing AM talk radio (Rush, Hannity, O'Reilly, Larson, and the like). And you know what? I agree with them on about one in every eight stances (example: defending the border with Mexico and not giving billions in advanced spy tech to corrupt Mexican border governments). Now, once they start drifting into nonsense like pointing out every time Hillary Clinton farts or burps, I roll my eyes and listen on, figuring I'll at least know how to poke holes in this tripe when someone who is a rabid listener to these two-bit demagogues engages me in public.

Who here agrees with me that moderates kick ass?! Hooray for compromise! Especially rightists....(Go Guiliani, even if he isn't all that moderate!)
You're just about the most pish 'moderate' ever.
What do you think of...
Abortion: I don't like it, but the choice neither is nor should be any of my business.

Death Penalty: High Treason, yes, everything else, no.

Stem Cell Research: Yeah, fine, whatever.

Enviormentalism/Global Warming: Keep the environment spiffing. However, Greenpeace are not to be tolerated.

Imperialism: HUZZAH! (if it's at least slightly to the benefit of the native population)

Surveillence: Tell the various surveillence services to send letters to dodgy people, telling them they're being watched. It's only polite, after all.

Communism: Nice idea, utterly unfeasible.

Fascism: Meh. Had a short stint of liking it. Then stopped.

Castro: Meh. More important things in the world, although I applaud him for the fact that he had the balls to stand up to the US.

Bush: Tragicomic.

Health Care: NHS style.

Taxes: Whatever's going to work best, be that low or high, to gain capital for the general populace. Leave that kind of thing to proper economists, I'm a bit of a layman in such things.

Social Security: Handy.

Large Government/Small Government: Large. Most people are a bit stupid and need telling what to do. Small governments don't exactly facilitate this.

Gun Control: No guns outside of dedicated police firearms units and the military. Unless you have a really good reason, in which case you can have a non-pump shotgun. With a tracking device, so the government knows where it is at all times.

Partisanship: In the words of Bush - 'If you don't stand for anything, then you don't stand for anything!'. If people aren't interested in your politics, then they won't vote for you. That's how things work...

Who here agrees with me that moderates kick ass?! Hooray for compromise! Especially rightists....(Go Guiliani, even if he isn't all that moderate!)

The opinions experesed by you are mostly hard right, not moderate.

What do you think of...
Abortion: Allow it, but don't promote it. Education and better info about famly planning would be better.
Death Penalty: Keep, but restict it. US applies it too often.
Stem Cell Research: Why not?
Enviormentalism/Global Warming: Middle road here
Imperialism: It's a "Very Bad thing". Fortunately, it's gone for the most part. The PRC's the only major imperial power today.
Surveillence: Shut it down!
Communism: Theft.
Fascism: Murder.
Castro: Functionally proped up by the US embargo.
Bush: War criminal, he shopuld be imperached along with Cheney and several of his cabinet members.
Health Care: Minimal safety net.
Taxes: Lower's better.
Social Security: Minimal safety net
Large Government/Small Government: Smaller
Gun Control: Means contoling what you hit.
Partisanship: Bad.

Iraq War: A horrific atrocity. We've shown ourselves hopeless at actually fixing the catastrophe there, so we might as well leave now.
That's a particularly foolish idea.

This is one of the very, very few things I agree with Bush on - we need to keep troops there. Not to "help this young democracy" or any of that shite, but simply to stop the Iraqis killing each other.

We completely messed that country up, trying to relieve our collective guilt by simply leaving it and calling it SEP is not only extremely cowardly, but is going to lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths at the very least.

Trying to wash our hands with Iraq by leaving is almost the exact thing that led to the Rwandan massacre.

"We've messed about enough in Africa, let's just leave them to it" was the US policy, and Clinton himself said that 5,000 American peacekeepers would have saved 500,000 lives.

You in favour of that kind of line?

And as for the poll...

What would you rate yourself as on a political spectrum/scale?
Fascist and proud of it!
Strongly Conservative
Moderate Conservative (that's me!)
So neutral it's really not even funny.
Moderate Liberal
Strongly Liberal (think Al Gore)
COMPLETELY FUCKING COMMUNIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You put in the authoritarian left-right scale (communists and fascists) and the moderate left-right scale (conservatives and liberals), but left out the left-right libertarians, ignoring a full third of the spectrum...

The fucker came in, chucked out the old leader (who admittedly was a douchebag), then declared himself the leader with the support of a crazed minority! He said "Elections? What elections? The people have already chosen!" Which was, of course, total bullshit. Given a choice, people would have elected someone else, especially if everyone knew the fucker was a commie. Cubans supported him because they thought he would bring democracy back to Cuba, not more dictatorship. He is NOT a legitimate leader. As a the son of a Cuban exile, I am disgusted by this assesment of Castro. Support for him is one thing, but don't make him out to be something he's not.

Kind of like the Revolutionaries of the Islamic Revolution did with the Shah, as the British and Americans did with earlier Iranian leaders. Musharraf is another who would fit that description, or what about Mugabe or any number of "democratically" elected world leaders. It's a sham. There places that are like that. They have "elections" but it doesn't reflect reality.

Umm...the French surrender-monkeys copied US.

Hardly. Just because the French Revolution has the word "revolution" in it doesn't mean it's comparable to ours. Our revolution was largely about economic/political rights of the colonies and the right of sovereignty (Is that spelled wrong?). The French Revolution was essentially a class war between a corrupt and wealthy elite and the oppressed, starving peasantry. I would hardly say they "copied" us. Us overthrowing the ruling power may have inspired them, but that's about it.

Of course, what Fass said too didn't represent the reality of the situation. Much, if not most of our philosophy came from Scottish Philosophy (like Locke) than French, though the French had a huge hand. And much of it was of our own designing, trying to get idealistic concepts to fit into reality.

What do you think of...
Abortion: Murder.
Death Penalty: Necessary.
Stem Cell Research: Good, as long as human life is not taken.
Environmentalism/Global Warming: Exaggerated.
Imperialism: Get rid of it.
Surveillance: Some is good, too much is bad.
Communism: A plague.
Fascism: Good, in the sense of economics. "Fascist" in the terms of totalitarianism is no better than Communist bullshit.
Castro: Still alive, unfortunately.
Bush: I can't wait for him to get out of office, that NeoCon bastard.
Health Care: Private.
Taxes: Low, to no income tax, low other taxes.
Social Security: Get rid of it.
Large Government/Small Government: Small.
Gun Control: Background checks, but do NOT limit a person's constitutional right to bear arms.
Partisanship: Multiple parties creates political diversity. One party states like the Communists want is ludicrous - even I, a conservative, welcome some liberal or varying "conservative" views to serve as a devil's advocate.

Abortion: Like using controceptives- allows women to decide whether they want to have a baby. But I would set the cut-off at the first trimester, becasue otherwise it would be skirting too close to six months later when it becomes infancticide. But what's the dirrerence anyways: our father's decision to use a condom or not could have murdered some of us.
Death Penalty: Why not? Mass murderers really need to try death and see how it feels.
Stem Cell Research: Sure, I support even embryonic stem cell rsserach but people are devleoping less ethically sticky ways to do it.
Environmentalism/Global Warming: A lot of my friends at school are members of the "environmental club" and I spend my Wedsnday lunch hour at poetry club, but what's the difference? Not that we need green parties to advance environmental causes, I think any liberal should do that. Global warming may not be caused by green house gasses emitted by The Man's factories (consider: Climatologists agree the little Ice Age ended in the early 19th century and it just so happened that industrialization was just begining and ever since then our climates have warmed up) but maybe the culprit is sunspots.
Imperialism: Makes maps a lot more fun to look at.
Surveillance: Sure, just not in public restrooms.
Communism: Kills the human spirit.
Fascism: Kills humans.
Castro: Why isn't he dead yet?
Bush: Why did he go sky-diving? Bush, Jr.: It seems awfully coincidental that he is our thrid President named George and the king we decalred our independence from was the thrid English/British King named George.
Health Care: High-school drop-outs don't deserve it but crippled poor kids and single-mothers need support.
Taxes: They've been paying for my education for twelve years now.
Social Security: Sure, but I like my employer's 401(k), too. (not that I have an employer)(Oh, and for you Americans and non-americans 401(k) is part of our tax code that allows us to to save money for retirement by deffering part of income into savings that we can write off from our income tax, or somethign like that... But of, course, all us intelligent pople who just happen to reside in the US already knew that)
Large Government/Small Government: Depends on how much we need to get done.
Gun Control: I'd like a few Uzis and AK-47's, but I personally prefer katanas and Zweihanders (German two-handed broadswords=total beasts) so I don't care too much. (I've been asking Santa for an RPG (not as in MMORPG) for a long time, though, maybe this'll be the year!)
Partisanship: Okay for organizing multi-party alliances to get some measure passed but as frustrating as h*ll for two-party systems.

Is this not what the Player Information (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=444888) thread is for?

Statement of position without debate is so boring...

Abortion: When medically or psychologically necessary (rape) but otherwise should not be casually resorted to.
Death Penalty: Hardly a deterrent given how crime still exists. Plus too many death row inmates are turning out to have been wrongly convicted in the first place.
Stem Cell Research: Pioneering a new field of science is seldom pretty.
Environmentalism/Global Warming: Go ahead and tell the Tuvaluans that it's all a hype. Please. I want to see what happens afterwards.
Imperialism: An obsolete concept that inevitably leads to conflict (see WW2 as an example).
Surveillance: Acceptable in likely target zones, but anywhere else is pushing it.
Communism: A concept born of idealism and as a reaction to unfettered libertarian capitalism. But impractical outside of small communes.
Fascism: A corporatist totalitarian regime? No thanks.
Castro: Only a big deal because he's still around despite U.S. attempts to depose him. America is a sore loser.
Bush: One year is too goddamn long. He'll top the crapsterpiece in the Middle East with something truly stupendous and incredulous before he leaves office.
Health Care: Preventative health care should be free and public. Keeping the ailments in check is a lot cheaper than treating them. Medical advances mean shit if you can't afford them.
Taxes: Get rid of Bush's tax cuts. And oil companies are making an awful amount of profit lately. Shake some more cash from them.
Social Security: In need of repair and overhaul, but still worth preserving.
Large Government/Small Government: Should be adjustable. Big or small as the political and economic climate requires. Restricting size always has limitations.
Gun Control: Background checking needs to be more well-developed, especially psychological checks.
Partisanship: Until the political system in the U.S. gains a serious overhaul, an unavoidable reality.

Umm...the French surrender-monkeys copied US.

I guess I was right in that they don't teach you history all that well in the USA. Read up on the Age of Enlightenment (you've already gotten links about it), and weep over your own personal lack of such.

When was the last time you had more than two parties in your parliament? (Here, again, I don't care that you don't call your parliament a parliament - it is a parliament) Was that during the last 100 years?



Alright, I'm going to let the rest of it go because we're getting nowhere and I don't disagree with you on principle so much as I was arguing for the idea of being nice to people when you try to convince them of an opinion contrary to what they hold, but I will not let THIS part go, because it's just plain wrong.

It's not a parliament. It's a Congress. It doesn't work the same way at all. We have two elected legislative bodies, not one(note the elected part before you bring up things like the House of Lords) and neither one of them works the way a parliamentary body does. They don't work via a seating arrangement that confers certain powers to major and minor holders. Neither elects a Prime Minister. Indeed, the President is an entirely separate part of government!

And you would know that if you bothered to actually research it. Now, please don't start arguing about whether it's a good system or not(frankly I don't think it is) because my point is that it is NOT the same, and trying to argue that it is the same when you're educated enough to know it's not means you're just trying to be a smartass as evident in your phrasing. I was trying to be reasonable and avoid insults and you just--as usual--tossed them everywhere.

trying to relieve our collective guilt

Who said anything about relieving our collective guilt?

We should leave because we haven't a hope of solving anything by staying... not because, in theory, we have no obligation to solve the problems we caused.

Abortion: fuck yeah!
Death Penalty: gtfo
Stem Cell Research: fuck yeah
Enviormentalism/Global Warming: Save the fucking Polar Bears!
Imperialism: gtfo
Surveillence: meh
Communism: gtfo
Fascism: gtfo
Castro: meh
Bush: gtfo
Health Care: Government provided, within mother fucking reason.
Taxes: boo, but fuck it we need them (to an extent)
Social Security: Fine
Large Government/Small Government: As small as pos, biyatch.
Gun Control: Have background checks for fucks sakes!
Partisanship: I don't tend to think about that issue, so meh.

Alright, I'm going to let the rest of it go because we're getting nowhere and I don't disagree with you on principle so much as I was arguing for the idea of being nice to people when you try to convince them of an opinion contrary to what they hold, but I will not let THIS part go, because it's just plain wrong.

Oh, why did I know that what was to follow would show a complete and utter failure to understand what a parliament is and would probably hinge on the British one's difference to USA one, while ignoring every other parliament out there, especially those of republics? Some would call it ESP, I call it low expectations due to prior experience.

It's not a parliament. It's a Congress.

"It's not a dog! It's a Labrador!"

It doesn't work the same way at all.

"It doesn't burrow for truffles, it helps in the hunt!"

We have two elected legislative bodies,

That's called a "bicameral" parliament. Lots of countries have one.

not one

That's called a "unicameral" parliament. Several countries have one.

(note the elected part before you bring up things like the House of Lords)

And many countries have two elected chambers. Nothing about them being elected or not has anything to do with them being chambers/houses of a parliament.

and neither one of them works the way a parliamentary body does.

They're the supreme legislative body and thus pass laws, hold the purse, have subcommittees, debates and yadda yadda yadda. They're a parliament. That their power is different from that of some other parliaments, but at the same time similar to that of other parliaments, is irrelevant because they do most of the things a parliament does.

They don't work via a seating arrangement that confers certain powers to major and minor holders.

Neither do several other parliaments, but yours does indeed confer certain powers to majorities.

Neither elects a Prime Minister.

That's because your system lacks a Prime Minister and confers his duties to the President. Doesn't have any bearing on your parliament's status as a parliament.

Indeed, the President is an entirely separate part of government!

You mean like he is in most other republics that have parliaments? Like, say, Finland? And France? And Germany? And Ireland? And Poland (can't forget them)! Imagine that... That you have a system that confers to him the powers in some other countries held by a Prime Minister has no bearing on the fact that your "Congress" (ours is called "Riksdag" - look how a different name doesn't change its nature and I can't just say without tautology that "it's not a parliament - it's a Riksdag!") is the supreme legislative body of your country and thus performs the duties a parliament does - it doesn't perform the exact same duties the British one does, but then neither do many country's parliaments (Sweden's included - it does several things the British one doesn't, and vice versa). Your separation of powers doesn't change its nature.

And you would know that if you bothered to actually research it.

Haha, after all your poppycock you talk about research? Cute.

Now, please don't start arguing about whether it's a good system or not(frankly I don't think it is) because my point is that it is NOT the same, and trying to argue that it is the same when you're educated enough to know it's not means you're just trying to be a smartass as evident in your phrasing.

Education? Bwahaha. After all that, seriously, you're gonna talk about education? Hilarious.

I was trying to be reasonable and avoid insults and you just--as usual--tossed them everywhere.

Oh, poor little you inventing insults in others while slapping on a veneer of sanctimoniousness on your posts. Grow some skin, already.

Who said anything about relieving our collective guilt?

We should leave because we haven't a hope of solving anything by staying... not because, in theory, we have no obligation to solve the problems we caused.
What soldiers on streets do is keep inter-factional violence down. That's why our troops should stay there. Don't really want to leave now, just on the cusp of the Iraqis being able to take their own country back. Would be a complete waste of the last 4 and a half years' effort.

Three things about me:

1. I am American
2. I am a "moderate conservative" or "conservative centerist"
3. I try to use reason to make up my mind

That being said, here is where I stand:

1. Abortion: It is full of problems. It gets rid of babies that are needed to replace our aging workforce, thus screwing our economy and sending ourselves back a good deal. It is immoral, and contradicts the Bible.

I got that far before I gave up.

What soldiers on streets do is keep inter-factional violence down.

Forever? And it isn't like there hasn't been lots of "inter-factional violence" as it is.

Don't really want to leave now, just on the cusp of the Iraqis being able to take their own country back.

So because the security situation has improved somewhat (not that the bloodbath has stopped), a change that even the US leadership agrees will be temporary and insufficient without political changes that seem unforthcoming, you think that success is just around the corner?

Well, maybe I might be inclined to believe you if I hadn't heard the same thing again and again for the past four years. I've stopped believing it.

Would be a complete waste of the last 4 and a half years' effort.

Right. Let's not waste five and a half, or ten.

Abortion: you shouldn't but should be able to if necessary
Death Penalty: sure
Stem Cell Research: yes
Enviormentalism/Global Warming:as long as it doesn't hurt the economy or impede civil liberties
Imperialism: I wouldn't be opposed to annexing Mexico
Surveillence: street corner cameras maybe, phone tapping NO
Communism: sucks
Fascism: see above
Castro: live and let live
Bush: could be better, could be worse
Health Care: limited government support, mostly privatized
Taxes: keep them low
Social Security: keep it to a minimum
Large Government/Small Government: smaller, within reason
Gun Control: should be virtually nonexistent
Partisanship: meh

Forever?
So long as they're there, aye.
And it isn't like there hasn't been lots of "inter-factional violence" as it is.
Caused by a lack of troops.
So because the security situation has improved somewhat (not that the bloodbath has stopped), a change that even the US leadership agrees will be temporary and insufficient without political changes that seem unforthcoming, you think that success is just around the corner?
No, not at all. The NI campaign for the British lasted bloody ages, and I can see a similar situation in Iraq. Yes, it's going to be a pretty costly endeavour, but is it not worth it to have a fuctioning, somewhat Westernised state in that area?
Well, maybe I might be inclined to believe you if I hadn't heard the same thing again and again for the past four years. I've stopped believing it.
That's probably because your politicians say it's just around the corner, which it quite obviously isn't.

No point in just pretending, after all.
Right. Let's not waste five and a half, or ten.
It'll take thirty years to do it properly, same with Afghanistan. Such is the way of things.

So long as they're there, aye.

But they won't be there forever... among other things, it's politically impossible.

Caused by a lack of troops.

The kind of troop presence to end the sectarian violence would not be sustainable in the long run... and implementing any such policy would involve a bloodbath anyway. The Iraqis don't particularly like foreign forces in their country.

No, not at all. The NI campaign for the British lasted bloody ages, and I can see a similar situation in Iraq.

I can't... any basis for unity between the sectarian groups will either be imposed through extreme quantities of force or would constitute something the US wouldn't particularly like (say, nationalism.)

but is it not worth it to have a fuctioning, somewhat Westernised state in that area?

Perhaps theoretically. If that seemed likely, I might agree with you.

It'll take thirty years to do it properly, same with Afghanistan.

And where's the guarantee that it will succeed in the end?

Meh, why not?

What do you think of...
Abortion: Pro-life, pro-choice, anti-abortion, and anti-ban
Death Penalty: Allowable only if 100% certainty of guilt of a heinous crime can be established. Since that is impossible, not allowable.
Stem Cell Research: Strongly in favor of the various avenues of research here.
Enviormentalism/Global Warming: good/bad
Imperialism: If not always a bad idea, damn near always a bad idea.
Surveillence: By individuals on their private property? As long as it isn't in bathrooms or the like. By the government? Only with a clear compelling interest.
Communism: Depends on people to be better than they've ever been. (thus, a bad idea)
Fascism: Nyet.
Castro: Why is Castro my business? Maybe, if the US would stop trying to control the governments of other countries, the people we put in power wouldn't keep coming to bite us in the ass?
Bush: Worst president in my lifetime (assuming we're talking about Dubya here) and possibly worst overall.
Health Care: Should be guaranteed to all people.
Taxes: No problem with them, as long as the money gets spent properly
Social Security: Stop taking money out of it for other things and put the taxes even on income over the set amount and this won't even be a discussion.
Large Government/Small Government: As small as possible to still provide necessary services.
Gun Control: Background checks and gun safety classes should be required. Levels of licensing for different types of weapons would be good.
Partisanship: I see no reason to join a political party and partisan patsies who always follow the party position on something are not worthy of a vote

I got that far before I gave up.I didn't even get that far. Bravo to you.

Abortion: good
Death Penalty: good
Stem Cell Research: good
Enviormentalism/Global Warming: good
Imperialism: good
Surveillence: good
Communism: good
Fascism: good
Castro: good
Bush: good
Health Care: good
Taxes: good
Social Security: good
Large Government/Small Government: good
Gun Control: good
Partisanship: good

Abortion:

A symptom of two diseases: 1) A broken economic system that leaves individuals without the means necessary to support themselves and their offspring, 2) religious superstition that considers sexual knowledge/education and birth control "sinful."

Cure the diseases and the symptom goes away automatically.

Death Penalty:

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. So it goes. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction.... The chain reaction of evil — hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars — must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation."

Martin Luther King, Jr. (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King_Jr.)

Surveillence:

Local and decentralized (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_Watch).

Communism:

"All that we want to do away with is the miserable character of this appropriation, under which the labourer lives merely to increase capital, and allowed to live only so far as the interest to the ruling class requires it."

Karl Marx (Das Manifest der Kommunistischen Partei) (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Karl_Marx#Das_Manifest_der_Kommunistischen_Partei)

Fascism:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Naciones_Unidas_3.jpg

Health Care, Taxes, Social Security:

Local and decentralized. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative)

Partisanship:

Parties are necessary to ensure equal power and effectiveness where interests are competitive or otherwise not held in common. Multiparty proportional representation is most able to achieve such.

What do you think of...
Abortion: Pro-choice.

Death Penalty: In the end, aren't we as bad as murderers if we murder them?

Stem Cell Research: Is acceptable to me at the moment for the purposes of healing the sick, but not for cloning entire entities (i.e. an entire animal or human being).

Environmentalism/Global Warming: Sign Kyoto.

Surveillance: I believe in the right to privacy, especially in one's own home.

Communism: Is understandable in some senses and somewhat intriguing in theory only.

Bush: Is obviously a right-wing, pro-war, unintelligent a**hole.

Health Care: Should be universal, government funded, affordable and held accountable for negligence.

Taxes: Are necessary and can be somewhat higher for those who can afford it.

Social Security: Finance should be provided for the sick, the elderly, students, those with disabilities, the mentally ill, those encountering hardship, those on a low income and those requiring help. I feel a bit iffy about the 'dole', because if you are physically and mentally able, you should support yourself and leave the money to those who really need it.

Gun Control: Guns are bad, mmmkay?

But they won't be there forever... among other things, it's politically impossible.
It's not politically impossible unless you make it so, let's be honest. The democrats are only asking for troops to be pulled out because they know it'll score points with the American left wing, not for any particularly good reason.
The kind of troop presence to end the sectarian violence would not be sustainable in the long run... and implementing any such policy would involve a bloodbath anyway. The Iraqis don't particularly like foreign forces in their country.
We managed it for about 40 years in Northern Ireland. Don't see why the far better funded, if poorer trained, US forces can't do so.
I can't... any basis for unity between the sectarian groups will either be imposed through extreme quantities of force
We did it without that. Not actually that hard.
or would constitute something the US wouldn't particularly like (say, nationalism.)
Then the US needs to listen to external as well as internal forces, and let the Iraqis have their own way on this matter.
Perhaps theoretically. If that seemed likely, I might agree with you.
It's nothing like implausible.
And where's the guarantee that it will succeed in the end?
Previous experiences by the British in NI and Malaysia show that it's quite possible, really, all that really needs to happen is for the US to send over its best and brightest, as we tried to do in NI. No point in having substandard peacekeepers, that doesn't help anything.

i love the US-centric poll. and i'm way left of al gore, i think


Abortion: its a bunch of cells before it becomes concious; after 19 weeks its "alive" - pro choice before 20 weeks, pro life after
Death Penalty: inhumane
Stem Cell Research: Very pro. curing diseases = good
Enviormentalism/Global Warming: We're pretty much fucked
Imperialism: SO last century
Surveillence: meh. frankly i want CCTV all over my house and looking over my car to catch the chavs who keep scratching it
Communism: lovely but impractical in the near future.
Fascism: yucky
Castro: cuddly
Bush: corrupt moron
Health Care: NHS FTW!
Taxes: i pay them. they are neccessary.
Social Security: ie welfare state? ethically necessary.
Large Government/Small Government: it seems i am in favour of what a large government can provide
Gun Control: guns kill. ban em
Partisanship: ?

Abortion: The fetus doesn't seem to care much.
Death Penalty: Probably more humane than making them rot in jail.
Stem Cell Research: Have yet to find any plausible argument against.
Marriage: Two consenting individuals... of intelligent nature.... are deeply in love with each other. Excellent. Perhaps they should be married.
Enviormentalism/Global Warming: I want my glaciers back, you dirty bastards!
Imperialism: Share the love, but don't force it on 'em.
Surveillence: People being able to see you while you're in public... hmmm.... is society ready for this?
Communism: That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. Go live in China.
Fascism: Phase 2; Genocide.
Castro: When I think of him, my head starts shaking, and I my every other breath becomes a sigh.
Bush: Any way you look at it, he's a chimpanzee.
Health Care: Shouldn't be exclusive to the rich.
Taxes: As long as we have a say in it.
Social Security: Yes.
Large Government/Small Government: It really depends on the kind of people you're governing... for the wee simple folk, a wee simple government, y'know?
Gun Control: *sings* People get shot by people... people with guns!!!
Partisanship: Kind of hard to think strait when you've got your knickers in a twist.

Who here agrees with me that moderates kick ass?!

Meh.

Hooray for compromise! Especially rightists....(Go Guiliani, even if he isn't all that moderate!)

You're pretty conservative for liking moderates so much.

What do you think of...
Abortion: Baby Killing.

Banning abortion is not even conceivable unless it can be enforced. Supposing it can, I'd probably still be mostly pro-choice. I don't think people should be forced to care for parasites if they don't want to; that's why I'm anti-welfare. Still, I would recommend giving birth and just putting the child-up for adoption if possible.

Death Penalty: There are escape hazards out there.

If there is a good chance the criminal can become a productive member of society, then why kill it? If it can't, then I don't want to support it, and I am for exterminating it (not as a penalty, or punishment, though)...provided it's cheaper then the alternative.

Stem Cell Research: If you can do it without aborting fetuses, all for it!

Such enthusiasm.

Enviormentalism/Global Warming: Save the Polar Bears!

A somewhat fatiguing subject.

Imperialism: Teddy Roosevelt is my hero. 'Nuff said.

Provided the conquerer can improve the lifestyle of his subjects tremendously without killing many of the people living there. Not likely, but semi-possible.

Surveillence: The NS issue "Police Consider Big Brother Security" says it best "When you're in public, people can SEE YOU!!"

But they had better not take a of video of me with their cell-phone. Now if you want to suggest patrol men on the street corners, that's another matter.

Communism: Sucks.
Agreed.

Fascism: Beats communism
A government that is based-off ideas that you'd find in the KKK? Not really.

Castro: Why havn't we had him killed yet?
Because there's nothing in it for us.
Bush: There's worse.
Not many presidents are responsible for over half the nation's total debt.
Health Care: Government provided, within reason.
I suppose....

Taxes: Be honest about 'em.
What in Gilfig's name does that mean?
Social Security: Need it.
Mmmmhmm.
Large Government/Small Government: Medium! Hooray for states rights with central power!
States rights, yes. I believe we'd had enough of that when they refused to ban slavery.
Gun Control: Have background checks for goodness sakes! (And ban machine guns in most places, but not semi-automatics and other stuff).
Sounds fine.
Partisanship: COMPROMISE, PEOPLE! IT'S A GOOD THING!!!!!!!!
If we had a decent party among the major two, which we don't.

Insert Monavia's entire post here. I'm too lazy to screw around with quote thingies.

” 1. Abortion: It is full of problems. It gets rid of babies that are needed to replace our aging workforce thus screwing our economy and sending ourselves back a good deal.”

Yes, yes, because there aren’t millions of people all over the world who would do anything for the opportunity to become a part of the American workforce…
Maybe the babies could find a nice job as malnourished subsistence farmers, after the old ones find a reliable career with American businesses.

“It is immoral, and contradicts the Bible.’
“3. I try to use reason to make up my mind”

Also, “Seperation of Church and State”
Or there’s Iraq. Iraq is nice, too.

“By definition, a fetus is made of living cells, it has functions, and so on. It may as well be alive, at least by the 20th week in scientific circles, because it has all eight characteristics of living things by then.

Just the other day, I was talking to my pregger-friend’s unborn child about how he was probably going to be sexy when he grew up.
I’ve had more stimulating conversations with my daffodils.

2. Death Penalty: I don't like it, but legalize public dueling in extreme cases of disagreement and of course, locking up people in a prison that resembles a dungeon can be tortureous. Even with no guilty conscience, living for a few decades knowing that you will never be free and getting stuck brooding on this will torment even the most shameless prisoner. It is also unnecessary and impractical.

“I don’t like [killing people], but I think people should be allowed to shoot each other over arguments. Also, I want to torture criminals.”
Also, there are plenty of studies showing that guilt over a crime tends to fade during extended jail time as the inmate becomes more removed from regular society- an effect which is generally only counteracted by costly rehabilitation.

“But no fetuses or embryos can be used for this.

Why?

“4. Enviormentalism/Global Warming: Work to save the envioronment, but not at excessive expense.”

What’s the excessive expense?

"5. Imperialism: It is costly and does not always work. Enough said."

“Enough said.”
Anything that’s costly and doesn’t always work, like surgery, is bad. Enough said.

"He cannot hurt America so we should spare the expense of killing him."

O Ye Who So Mightily Loves All Human Life, I Ask Of Thee; What about the Cubans?

"10. Bush: I can go on for hours about how good the man is. I have spent the last three or four years standing up for the man against left wing nutcases and traitor conservatives who do not support the man. Yes, I listen to all sides of the story before I come to a conclusion like this."

Okay so you like him… That’s nice. Do you have any reasons, after listening to all sides of the story, or do you just like to stand up against left wing nutcases and traitor conservatives?

"11. Health Care: We need it, so the government should provide at least partial coverage."

Yes, yes, I need partial assistance so that I will partially be able to afford a partial treatment for my cancer, so that I can partially not die.

"14. Large Government/Small Government: Small number of oficials, large amount of power.

Surely it's cleverer to have just a couple of government leaders, so, you know... if one decides to become a corrupt bastard and/or raving lunatic, it can scandalize the entire government, and, thanks to their vast quantities of power, drag the entire nation down with it.

"16. Partisanship: Good for a democracy, if they cooperate or work together to achieve progress. Otherwise, don't think about it."

Define “cooperate and work together to achieve progress”. Please.

It's not politically impossible unless you make it so, let's be honest.

Nonsense, it isn't like they listen to people like me anyway.

The democrats are only asking for troops to be pulled out because they know it'll score points with the American left wing

Not at all... they know it'll score points with most Americans, who as a whole are quite understandably tired of the war. The "left wing" will vote for the Democrats regardless.

Long-term, costly involvement in Iraq on the decades scale is simply not anything the US population or the US leadership is interested in. Even if success were possible with such a commitment, it isn't happening. Better to break it off now.

We managed it for about 40 years in Northern Ireland.

Yeah, Northern Ireland was never really the mess Iraq is today.

We did it without that. Not actually that hard.

The record in Iraq is otherwise... not that the bloodshed actually brought much results.

Then the US needs to listen to external as well as internal forces, and let the Iraqis have their own way on this matter.

And why would it do that?

It's nothing like implausible.

What, a foreign power imposing a workable Western-style secular government on sectarian groups who don't want it? Yeah, it's pretty implausible.

I disagree. Moderation in politics is no virtue, especially when it is nothing more than a cloak to avoid taking definite stand on issues of morality.

That said, I voted "Completely Fucking Communist" because I am one. An extremely anti-authoritarian anarchist-communist, that is.

Abortion: womans choice
Death Penalty: good, but too complicated/expensive
Stem Cell Research: fine
Environmentalism/Global Warming: like someone said before me on this thread, number one priority
Imperialism: an ancient and not a good practice
Surveillence: bad, as the Constitution (U.S.A.) says, people are supposed to look out for their own safety and then that of others, this should be enough
Communism: can work, but it usually will not, democracy has better results but like Communism, it only works for a short period of time before people began getting unsentimental/less passionet (I'm not sure if that is the best word for what I am trying to say, message me if you have a better one i.e. a word that is real) and disinterested about politics.
Fascism: nationalism or anything similar is bad, world citizenship should be held in high regard and goes hand in hand with environmentalism.
Castro: He isn't terrible, but he also has not really affected my life too much.
Bush: Stupid, evil, and represents a lot that is bad with the USA.
Health Care: I don't have an opinion on this yet.
Taxes: In a society where having a government is important, then this is necessary.
Social Security: see 'taxes' above
Large Government/Small Government: none at all would be better in order to achieve a utopian nation, which is what everybody in real life wants isn't it?
Gun Control: Not necessary, guns are required for the maintaining of ones liberty. It is all in the USA constitution about how everyone has the right to bear arms, which is used to protect liberty (in the constitution), and rebel against the government if necessary (also in the constitution).
Partisanship: Not good. Each candidate should be judged based on their individual actions that they will take as a leader (not their opinions, personality, etc.). Also, if an election is based on who has the most money like in the USA then something is definitely wrong.

*snip insults and all other stuff*
You know, Fass, you could have just educated me without the biting sarcasm. I was trying to honestly debate this with you.

And after looking up everything you talked about, I have discovered that you're right and that technically, under the definition, Congress is most certainly a parliament. It's not a word typically associated with Congress, but it does fit.

That said, I would have posted this a lot sooner but I was too busy becoming really frustrated by your ire, your "wit" and your unnecessary antics. I really wish you would stop using them. I know you won't and you'll probably insult me again because I said this, but I felt like saying it anyway.

In any case, I bow to your superior education on the subject.

Communism:

"All that we want to do away with is the miserable character of this appropriation, under which the labourer lives merely to increase capital, and allowed to live only so far as the interest to the ruling class requires it."


Bozo. Th ruling class doesn't determine how long a worker lives. But what do you expect from a system written by an unemployed drunken bum?

But seriously, the system is beautiful in theory. It's where it meets reality that it fails. Like the system where a guy can get nailed to a cross, and that small punishment acquits everyone on earth (including those who crucify people.)

I take it that no one cares to respond to my post.... :mad:

At least two people responded to your post, both of which mocked it as tripe. Frankly, I agree with them that it is tripe, but I won't mock you.

Al Gore "strongly liberal"? Haha, you USA people can be so funny that way.

Liberalism is an economic philosophy emphasizing individual freedom from restraint and usually based on free competition, the self-regulating market, and the gold standard. It is right wing, and I gather you're not trying to claim that Al Gore is a rightist. For some reason, a lot of yanks don't know political history and seem to think liberalism is left-wing and somehow adjacent to communism, when in fact they're diametrically opposed.

Spot on, comrade. This use of the term 'liberal' to denote a leftist POV has perplexed me for some time, until the realisation that the US democratic party is indeed a liberal one - corresponding to our moderates or liberals on a simple red/blue scale. The republicans would then be what we call the "Sweden democrats", a purely fascist party in a fluffy pink sheep's clothing.

I guess I was right in that they don't teach you history all that well in the USA. Read up on the Age of Enlightenment (you've already gotten links about it), and weep over your own personal lack of such.

I was actually referring to the French Revolution, fyi. And not all the Enlightenment scholars were French. Some were Brits.

But the Germans were best, because they had Frederick the Great (hooray for the Tour de Baton!) and earlier they had the Holy Roman Empire (of which it is a tragedy that it does not still exist), and they got Otto Von Bismark later and Erwin Rommel MUCH later. :)
(Hooray for complete irrelevancy!)(Is irrelevancy even a word? Must check).

Spot on, comrade. This use of the term 'liberal' to denote a leftist POV has perplexed me for some time, until the realisation that the US democratic party is indeed a liberal one - corresponding to our moderates or liberals on a simple red/blue scale. The republicans would then be what we call the "Sweden democrats", a purely fascist party in a fluffy pink sheep's clothing.

Exactly. I'm going from the American perspective. Because that's where I'm from. America. Get over it. Americans aren't any worse than anyone else.
You say fascist like its a bad thing!
Trumps Communism anyday.
Fascists at least have realistic views on human nature. They endorse a system that actually works :)!

You're pretty conservative for liking moderates so much.

Thats the thing. I'm conservative by liberal standards(or lots of moderates standards), but lots of conservatives/Republicans consider me a liberal. That's basically what I'm going on here. Right leaning moderate. Romney is too stupid. McCain is...don't know enough 'bout him, Hillary Clinton is an f'n commie. There's worse than Obama. Shoot me if Kerry (or Clinton for that matter) gets elected. Al Gore I really wouldn't mind that much(I made a mistake on the poll option). Nader should give up already. Ron Paul is too libertarian. Guilani is really the only one left.

Banning abortion is not even conceivable unless it can be enforced. Supposing it can, I'd probably still be mostly pro-choice. I don't think people should be forced to care for parasites if they don't want to; that's why I'm anti-welfare. Still, I would recommend giving birth and just putting the child-up for adoption if possible.

It's really just the principal of the thing. That's also my point. You could stop people from having testtube babies if you put unwanted children up for adoption. People who will have trouble having children normally can give the otherwise unwanted children a good home, and they can have children.

If there is a good chance the criminal can become a productive member of society, then why kill it? If it can't, then I don't want to support it, and I am for exterminating it (not as a penalty, or punishment, though)...provided it's cheaper then the alternative.

Again, point exactly. Rehabilitate or imprison those who aren't escape hazards. In many cases, life sentences in prison are actually probably worse punishment than execution, for the bastards who really deserve bad punishment. I don't know about you guys, but I'd probably go insane sitting in a prison cell for the rest of my life. Kill the people who are clearly threats to society who might be escape hazards.

Such enthusiasm.

That's the main bit I object to. Get stem cells some other way, and I'll support it!

A somewhat fatiguing subject.

What was that again? I forgot. :)

Provided the conquerer can improve the lifestyle of his subjects tremendously without killing many of the people living there. Not likely, but semi-possible.

Teddy Roosevelt FTW!

But they had better not take a of video of me with their cell-phone. Now if you want to suggest patrol men on the street corners, that's another matter.

I meant security cameras in public. No private stuff.
Also, in all honesty, I feel about as safe having private citizens taking pictures of me with their cellphone cameras as police officers.

Agreed.

I do believe you're one of the few people who has actually agreed with me on this.

A government that is based-off ideas that you'd find in the KKK? Not really.

That's only Nazism. Spanish Falangism/Fascists aren't like that. They're against communism yes, but no particular race.

States rights, yes. I believe we'd had enough of that when they refused to ban slavery.

We still have states for a reason. And it's not to look decorative.

If we had a decent party among the major two, which we don't.[/QUOTE]

That's why we should have a one party system!;)
PS: for all you nuts who are going to take me seriously on that last one, I was kidding 100%. Just in advance.

I apologize in advance for speaking ill of the dead.

The Cuban people would have had a leader they actually chose if JKF hadn't decided to be a pussy and to back out of the Bay of Pigs Invasion at the last second. He caused thousands of deaths like that. And he missed his chance to bring democracy back to a nation that has been friendly with the US apart from the Pinko leader thing.

Here's the thing, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

People will only accept change when change is inevitable. When change is forced upon them they will resist. There is plenty of proof of this in the world when you look at the attempt to create equality yet people are still subject to discrimination.

Abortion: For it, and maybe if people would drop the stupid abstinence-only crap, we'd have less.
Death Penalty: Revenge-based prison systems are foolish (and expensive). Let's focus on reforming those who can be reformed and keeping those that can't locked away from the public.
Stem Cell Research: Yes. Even if you're against abortion, why not use the aborted fetuses we have now?
Enviormentalism/Global Warming: I'm planning on sticking around for another half-century. I'd like to see the planet do the same.
Imperialism: War is war. It doesn't matter if they're dirty savages who apparently need to be Christianized.
Surveillence: I don't mind government officials watching me pick my butt. It's the potential for abuse that worries me.
Communism: Based on false premises and so often misapplied.
Fascism: Concerned for the welfare of the state rather than the people. Basically the worst possible set of goals for a country to have.
Castro: We should have lifted the trade sanctions on Cuba years ago. As far as communists regimes go, Castro's one of the better ones.
Bush: I'd like to see him impeached, but that seems unlikely. At least it's almost over, and he's partially lame-ducked.
Health Care: Universal would be nice, but not essential.
Taxes: Something has to give if we're ever going to fix the debt.
Social Security: Needs to be scrapped, reformed, or reduced. There's no way it can continue the way it has been.
Large Government/Small Government: Not a simple dichotomy. Some things should be cut, and others given increased funding. The budget debt is a hindrance to the economy and a time bomb in respect to the increasing foreign ownership of the debt.
Gun Control: I don't believe the Second Amendment is necessary anymore. Peaceful revolutions are always preferable, and anyone who manages to take dictatorial power would probably have managed to gain public support first. However, the only reason I see for banning firearms outright would be the decrease gun crimes, and the market is so saturated with guns that doing so would be of little effect.
Partisanship: People cry about this when they want something to happen and it isn't happening. A sign of a healthy government is that it debates with itself. Even if that means things are put to a deadlock every so often.

Kind of like the Revolutionaries of the Islamic Revolution did with the Shah, as the British and Americans did with earlier Iranian leaders. Musharraf is another who would fit that description, or what about Mugabe or any number of "democratically" elected world leaders. It's a sham. There places that are like that. They have "elections" but it doesn't reflect reality.

I apologize in advance for speaking ill of the dead.

The Cuban people would have had a leader they actually chose if JKF hadn't decided to be a pussy and to back out of the Bay of Pigs Invasion at the last second. He caused thousands of deaths like that. And he missed his chance to bring democracy back to a nation that has been friendly with the US apart from the Pinko leader thing.

Well, that poll says it all. Communism is a trend in America, and it's all because of Bush, making all moderates look like cruel, perverse gold-digging bigoted warmongers, regardless of where they live (due to the custom of generalizing a person's ideals). Btw, liberals aren't left everywhere else in the world, only in America. Down with these silly political stereotypes!

Abortion: A woman's right. Not a problem if it's still an embryo or fetus, but after a certain point it shouldn't be allowed. Steven Lewitt also said that its legalization lowered criminality in America; a polemic saying, but in the end it's true..
Death Penalty: Not very helpful to inhibit criminality.
Stem Cell Research:All for it!
Environmentalism/Global Warming:People only started to pay attention on it when they realized that it would hurt everyone's pockets in the long run. Even so, it must be done. Let's save the world, folks!
Imperialism:People should bring some good substantial reasons before going into war.Some wars are necessary.Most, however, aren't.
Surveillance: Put cameras on crime-known areas. Like those dark, shadowy alleys.How come they never put cameras there?.
Communism(don't mistake it for Social Democracy): Hmm lets see... A bunch of people get a taste of power and use it, unchecked. Then they promise that when society is ready they're going to give up the power and step down. Nah, I'm not buying it.
Fascism(fascism!=christianism, unless in some cases): Same as communism, only that they're honest about staying in power (not that it's any merit). Both systems have failed through history's test, however.Let's bury them, people.
Castro: Cuba's problem. If it becomes anyone else's, pound him! Also a very bad influence, remainder of our latin american history of being deceived by populism.
Bush: A fool with a mission. A big political mistake, that made many other big political mistakes.
Health Care: Sure, but don't complain of tax raises later!
Taxes: Low taxes, bad services; high taxes, good services. That said, I'd rather have a balance between both.
Social Security: As long as it doesn't stimulate the lazy bums out there to live out of state money forever, sure.
Gun Control: It should be necessary to have an, say, Sanity Certificate, to own one. And the bigger the gun is, the harder to own it should be.

A few suggestions:
Religion: Stay away from the government. A choice in someone's life, and that's it. Personal stuff, don't shove it on other people's faces.
Immigration: If they produce and contribute to society, you have no right to kick them away!
Globalization:It's a good thing, but it should go both ways on all aspects.

I'm a centrist. Enough said.

Abortion: Its a womans body...deal with it.
Death Penalty: Some people just need to die. Painfully......
Stem Cell Research: Its medical science that shows some promise. Of course I'm for it.
Enviormentalism/Global Warming: Global warming is bullshit but we need to take care of our planet all the same.
Imperialism: DIE IMPERIALIST DOGS!
Surveillence: Invasion of privacy. Just because people can see you doesn't mean you want them to.
Fascism: Contrary to popular belief fascism is actually centrist economics with authortarian tendencies in the government. In other words I agree with their economic polices.
Communism: Imperialism that not only controls your life but your bank book also. See my views on imperialism.
Castro: Why do we even bother with this idiot? He's Cubas problem.
Bush: DIE THEOCRATIC DOGS!
Health Care: We need a government insurance plan. It would enhance the free market and screw over insurance companies at the same time, a win-win.
Taxes: Fair Tax.
Social Security: The fair tax would fund it properly. Until then its screwed.
Large Government/Small Government: More power to the states. Less to the federal. And more protection of the rights of the individual. Up to and including how we choose to destroy ourselves. In other words more weed please! :p
Gun Control: The ability to shoot an illegal immigrant, burglar, terrorist, murderer or rapist at 60 paces, with any range of incredibly deadly firearms.
Partisanship: Needs to die.

But what do you expect from a system written by an unemployed drunken bum?


Actually, I think that Marxism is mostly nonsense. However, that one particular sentence strikes me as being spot on. Especially considering the fact that what it calls for is perfectly compatible with free enterprise. What it calls for is free enterprise.

Really, the problem with Marxism is the obsession with communes and revolution to the apparent exclusion of that single sentence.

Exactly. I'm going from the American perspective. Because that's where I'm from. America. Get over it. Americans aren't any worse than anyone else.
You say fascist like its a bad thing!
Trumps Communism anyday.
Fascists at least have realistic views on human nature. They endorse a system that actually works :)!

I take pity on you for expressing your support for fascism. All totalitarian forms of governing are wrong - as an american I would've hoped you'd emphasised on this rather than showing your true colours ("going from the American perspective", and all that..). I have also observed the use of the term "Get over it" as filler, infantile as it is, is also closely associated with U.S. citizens.

Well done on your argumentation for fascism as an alternative to communism though. Persecution and violation of human rights left aside, I would've thought such prominent features of a communist state such as gender equality, free healthcare and schooling, and labour rights were valued higher than fascism's idea of weeding out the weaker members of society as the ultimate goal.

But you're perfectly free to voice your views. That is after all one of the legacies the socialist revolution left you. Enjoy, comrade! :cool:

I consider myself kind of a libertarian and or moderate conservative.
Abortion: Rape and Incest derived children I can see this being viable, but otherwise no.

Death Penalty: Generally, no. But for the most heinous of crimes (genocide) definitely a option.

Stem Cell Research: I support this, it's one of the biggest leads we have to fixing a myriad of medical problems... We HAVE to pursue this.

Enviormentalism/Global Warming: It exists.What annoys me is oil companies create propaganda saying it doesn't, and many of the people who say it does own HUGE automobiles and private jets.

Imperialism: I don't see why that's needed nowadays.

Surveillence: If a judge decrees it to be a valid wiretap or visual recording, then yes. Cameras on every street corner is, in my opinion, a violation of civil liberties.

Communism: As many in life have said, would work great if it wasn't for the human factor.

Fascism: Has caused more lives to end then it has protected, causing it to be a failed ideology.

Castro: Older then a Rolling Stones member? ;) Had more bite when the USSR still existed to back him up.

Bush: Horrible leadership and has contradictory politics. Had the unfortunate luck of going against someone with even more contradictory politics, securing his spot as President for a second term.

Health Care: I think it's clear that the American version of health care has utterly failed. I like the idea of privatized health care, but corporations are TOO greedy to trust with such a thing. They give bonuses to employees who get more customers bumped off their plans! This does bring up the fact that governments can be just as corrupt and greedy and all around inept as corporations though... A complex matter.

Taxes: I prefer a smaller government with less taxes. I doubt this will ever happen.

Social Security: Because it exists, it has to stay. One of those things that, if it gets taken away will cause more problems then good.

Large Government/Small Government: Smaller federal government, with states deciding on most issues.

Gun Control: Generally against gun control, besides background checks for criminals and the like. Also think that gun control does little to stop criminals from getting guns (as they do that as they do any other thing, illegally), but does stop citizens.

Partisanship: Destroying our political spectrums, and clouding good and sensible judgement.

What do you think of...
Abortion: Deplorable, but not something for the state to legislate for or against.
Death Penalty: Undecided
Stem Cell Research: Don't care, so long as it's privately funded.
Enviormentalism/Global Warming: See the link in my signature
Imperialism: Deplorable
Surveillence: I'll take liberty over security
Communism: Extremely deplorable
Fascism: Extremely deplorable
Castro: Deserves to burn in hell
Bush: Stupid, rather than evil. Cheney pulls his strings.
Health Care: Should be 100% privatized
Taxes: Absolutely not
Social Security: Get rid of it
Large Government/Small Government: "That government is best which governs least."
Gun Control: No
Partisanship: *shrug*

I take pity on you for expressing your support for fascism. All totalitarian forms of governing are wrong - as an american I would've hoped you'd emphasised on this rather than showing your true colours ("going from the American perspective", and all that..). I have also observed the use of the term "Get over it" as filler, infantile as it is, is also closely associated with U.S. citizens.

Well done on your argumentation for fascism as an alternative to communism though. Persecution and violation of human rights left aside, I would've thought such prominent features of a communist state such as gender equality, free healthcare and schooling, and labour rights were valued higher than fascism's idea of weeding out the weaker members of society as the ultimate goal.

But you're perfectly free to voice your views. That is after all one of the legacies the socialist revolution left you. Enjoy, comrade! :cool:

I don't support fascism, except in the face of a choice between that and communism. One need only look at Russia and Cuba, as well as the many former Soviet satelite states in North-East Europe to see what Communism does to a nation's economy. They're all economic wrecks. Spain was fascist, and it does not seem that any lasting damage to the nation itself was caused, apart from those killed.
In the context of the Spanish Civil War, the Communist-run republic was just as bad as the Francoists. And the Fascists kept Spain out of World War II. If the Republic had stood, they would have entered to help their Soviet masters, and they would have gotten raped by Germany and Italy.
And it may be pointed out that Joseph Stalin actually is directly responsable for even more deaths than Hitler, terrible as Hitler was.
And Cuba has been ruined by Castro's actions. At one point, the Cuban currency was actually stronger and as stable as the American dollar. That was pre-Castro. The same cannot be said about after Castro's coup.
Coming from a family where lives have been derailed by Communism, I cannot rightly support commies in any way, shape or form.

I was also pointing out the fact that fascism actually works the way it's supposed to to a degree, while communism fails and anyone who actually thinks humans can ever stop being assholes enough for it to work are delusional.

As for the "get over it" thing...I finally found a good use for this...:upyours:

And I do support democracy more than anything else. Thought you would recognize that the fascism support is only in a case where you must choose the lesser of two evils.

Long live the King of Spain, or
!Vive el Rey Juan Carlos, rey de Espana!
And support the policies of Theodore Roosevelt!
Robert E. Lee was brilliant!
Infantry trump cavalry!
The U.S. should have helped the Central Powers in WWI and prevented WWII!

In other news, and completely irrelevant to anything else, Bloodhounds and Beagles are awesome!

Would you tell me why you think it is “tripe”? I spent half an hour writing this for people just so that they would know what my thoughts were and you people do not even give me a polite response. Frankly, I find everyone’s lack of courtesy to be alarming.
No-one has to reply to your posts; it’s not a matter of courtesy whatsoever.

Especially when the post in question is a long list of your positions on politically sensitive issues in a nine-page thread of positions on politically sensitive issues.

No need to get (smiley) angry over it, anyways.

You know, Fass, you could have just educated me without the biting sarcasm. I was trying to honestly debate this with you.

I have very little patience for ignorance, especially such that should have been remedied through compulsory schooling. I am not your teacher and if you don't have an education by now, that's no concern of mine.

That said, I would have posted this a lot sooner but I was too busy becoming really frustrated by your ire, your "wit" and your unnecessary antics. I really wish you would stop using them. I know you won't and you'll probably insult me again because I said this, but I felt like saying it anyway.

Your exercise in futility is noted and dismissed.

In any case, I bow to your superior education on the subject.

Primary school is pretty decent here.

I have very little patience for ignorance, especially such that should have been remedied through compulsory schooling. I am not your teacher and if you don't have an education by now, that's no concern of mine.


Now that's certainly true.

Your exercise in futility is noted and dismissed.

Damn.


Primary school is pretty decent here.
Yeah...I really wish I could say the same about our schools. Ah well. Look at it this way: at least when you use your greater education as a defense mechanism, you really are more educated.

The State of Monavia: It's tripe because your opinions are ridiculous and based not on logic but on reliance upon, among other things, a fictional book full of tales mostly stolen from other religions.

Yeah...I really wish I could say the same about our schools. Ah well. Look at it this way: at least when you use your greater education as a defense mechanism, you really are more educated.

Oh, rest assured I use it most offensively.

Oh, rest assured I use it most offensively.

Indeed.

Abortion: I don't like it and I would advocate adoption, but it should be legal
Death Penalty: Only for traitors and people who's death can send a message.(death to english teachers to advocate literacy, just joking, to gang leaders)
Stem Cell Research: Do it!
Enviormentalism/Global Warming: I'm sitting on the fence here I have seen a lot of evidense for both sides.
Imperialism: Don't think it excists anymore, sorry but America isn't an empire.
Surveillence: Copy the English
Communism: Making people poor for the sake of the poor
Fascism: Taking nationalism just a little bit to far
Castro: Evil dictator
Bush: I'm mostly pissed about his spending.
Health Care: Large, military provided (cause how else are they gonna train medics) and focusing on being best in the world, not cheapest.
Taxes: Consumption Based.
Social Security: minimal.
Large Government/Small Government: Small, have a parliment not a congress.
Gun Control: Have background checks and nothing for anyone who has ever been arrested otherwise, go crazy.
Partisanship: pff, get a life

Some of my points of view:
Abortion: Yes.
Death Penalty: No.
Stem Cell Research: Yes.
Enviormentalism/Global Warming: Save the Polar Bears!
Imperialism: Never.
Surveillence: No way. Let people have their privacy.
Communism: Sucks.
Fascism: Sucks just as much as communism.
Castro: None of anyone's business but the Cubans.
Bush: Load of shit.
Health Care: Private.
Taxes: As little as possible, with same tax rate for everyone
Social Security: Don't need it.
Large Government/Small Government: Small or no government at all.
Gun Control: Nope.

Would you tell me why you think it is "tripe"? I spent half an hour writing this for people just so that they would know what my thoughts were and you people do not even give me a polite response. Frankly, I find everyone's lack of courtesy to be alarming.

Honestly, not I nor anybody else in the world would care if you spent your entire lifetime writing your opinions out for people, if they aren't intelligent opinions. Half of those opinions you didn't even present a reason for, despite all your babbling about using logic.

And then, of course, after two of us were so kind as to type out a couple of rather long replies explaining to you why your views were either very debatable or very invalid, you decided to complain about how nobody replied, which does your intellect (and the opinions it spawned) very little compliment.
I think you should feel rather grateful that anybody responded to you at all.

meh, since I have nothing better to do:

Abortion: Should be legal (except maybe in the later stages of the pregnancy, unless the woman's health is in danger)
Death Penalty: barbaric
Stem Cell Research: I can see nothing wrong with it.
Enviormentalism/Global Warming: Environmentalism is very important especially in a crowded place like where I live. Global warming is one of the most important environmentalist concerns (but we shouldn't forget the others)
Imperialism: against
Surveillence: No real need for it in public spaces, except maybe at banks and stuff like that
Communism: I'm ok with most of the libertarian and democratic forms, leninism and stuff like it generally suck
Fascism: one of the worse ideologies ever (in all it's reincarnations)
Castro: I don't see why he's an issue for me, he certainly isn't my favorite leader, but there could be worse I guess
Bush: Really bad leader, doing anything he can to enrich himself and his friends
Health Care: basic human right, should be free for all
Taxes: necessary, but yeah, as low as possible of course.
Social Security: important
Large Government/Small Government: Good government
Gun Control: very strict
Partisanship: I don't really get what you mean with this point, but if you mean "organized in political parties" than I think it's a somewhat good idea, because it's practical, and because you can't really stop people to form groups.

Primary school is pretty decent here.

You learnt about congress to an extremely pedantic level in primary school? How odd.

Who here agrees with me that moderates kick ass?!I don't.


Abortion: I'm not pregnat. Even if I had an opinion, it wouldn't matter.
Death Penalty: The only worse crime than the death penalty, is slavery.
Stem Cell Research: Harms none, benefits some. It'd be sadistic to oppose, even if it was something that affected me in any way, and thus an issue in which I should have a say.
Enviormentalism/Global Warming: I agree with you here. Fuck capitalism, we need a sustainable economic model, not one that rewards fucking up ourselves and the rest of the biosphere.
Imperialism: All beings capable of exercising autonomy, without harming themselves unintentionally, or harming others, has a right to it. Imperialists, obviously, need care and supervision by responsible guardians - just like other retarded children.
Surveillence: Is incompatible with autonomy, and thus must be eliminated.
Communism: Sucks.
Fascism: Like communism, only without even the pretense of a worthwhile goal.
Castro: A petty dictator, though one far better than some alleged democracies.
Bush: A retarded PNAC puppy, and thus, an enemy of complex organic life.
Health Care: A right for all sapient beings.
Taxes: A principle used mostly to make me pay murderers their wages and the maintenance of their tools, but fortunately also a few worthwhile things, like infrastructure, from the education of children to research of nanotech.
Social Security:One of the reasons I pay taxes.
Large Government/Small Government: Government is a monopoly on force, and thus incompatible with autonomy. All such criminal industries must be eliminated.
Gun Control: Only becomes my business when the ownership affects me. For example, it is not acceptable for my next door neighbour to keep a loaded gun in his flat. Bullets might come flying through our walls here. But what he does in a forest where people already know gun nuts are running loose, is none of my business. He can shoot deer with howitzers for all I care.
Partisanship: An outdated principle for freedom-hating people.

Abortion: Don't agree but if one wishes to reduce the number, implement a good sex education programme and free contraceptives as a prevention of unwanted pregnancies. For rape/life at risk/etc. abortion is ok

Death Penalty: If we don't have the right to take life at conception, we don't have the right to take it from those whom we dislike.

Stem Cell Research: Too early to tell, needs more research so that things aren't over promised.

Enviormentalism/Global Warming: Government, business and individuals work together rather than legislation being imposed.

Imperialism: How do you define 'imperialism'?

Surveillence: Restricted, just because we are at war with terrorism, doesn't mean that we should lose out privacy - doing so would make us no better than the terrorists

Communism: Misguided utopian view - effort to bring heaven to earth whilst ignoring human frailties.

Fascism: Nothing more than alpha male chest beating

Castro: Who cares? pry open the economy, get things moving in terms of reform and suddenly the government starts to lose its influence and power.

Bush: He was voted in by the US citizens two times, there must be something to him that I don't see. Personally, I think he is an miss guided fool who has a naive view of the world.

Health Care: Mixed system, because neither purely private or public works well.

Taxes: When there is reform, lets reform rather than tinker around the edges

Social Security: Stop expecting employers to pay for it - no wonder the US is increasingly become less and less competitive.

Large Government/Small Government: Small to Medium

Gun Control: Have background checks but face realities, idiots are always going to find some way of getting them - even with all the safe guards in place.

Partisanship: Stop stopping legislation because you want your piece of pork in the legislation. Realise that the whole of the country doesn't revolve around YOU and your pissy little electorate.

Infantry trump cavalry!

Those silly 11 bang-bangs only wish that were true.

Rolling squid;13241945']
Communism: "A system in which all receve an equal share of goods and have an equal share of the power" whats not to like?


Well, for one thing you don't have to work. What's to prevent 2/3rds of the population from just not working, and yet getting equal money and food? Where's my incentive to work?

Second, the fact that not everyone is just as capable with power.

It's really just the principal of the thing. That's also my point. You could stop people from having testtube babies if you put unwanted children up for adoption. People who will have trouble having children normally can give the otherwise unwanted children a good home, and they can have children.

Once the baby is conscious, then the abortion should be illegal. I'm pretty soft about living things (of the non-asshatter variety). After all, I am a vegetarian.

Again, point exactly. Rehabilitate or imprison those who aren't escape hazards. In many cases, life sentences in prison are actually probably worse punishment than execution, for the bastards who really deserve bad punishment. I don't know about you guys, but I'd probably go insane sitting in a prison cell for the rest of my life. Kill the people who are clearly threats to society who might be escape hazards.


Escape isn't the only issue. I just think that if a criminal can't be shown to be able to at least put-out equal to what's invested in it, then it should be "put to sleep".

That's the main bit I object to. Get stem cells some other way, and I'll support it!

Science is good.

What was that again? I forgot. :)

Global warming.

Teddy Roosevelt FTW!

A singularly unique individual.

I meant security cameras in public. No private stuff.
Also, in all honesty, I feel about as safe having private citizens taking pictures of me with their cellphone cameras as police officers.

I don't really appreciate it. If the area is high in crime maybe.

I do believe you're one of the few people who has actually agreed with me on this.


Yeah. The system is very cute, very beautiful but ultimately poorly made. A good government system can't be that cute. Practical exists. Ideal doesn't.

That's only Nazism. Spanish Falangism/Fascists aren't like that. They're against communism yes, but no particular race.

According to my dictionary, fascism assumes certain races are superior to others.

We still have states for a reason. And it's not to look decorative.

That's about all it does, though.

If we had a decent party among the major two, which we don't.

Nope.

That's why we should have a one party system!;)
PS: for all you nuts who are going to take me seriously on that last one, I was kidding 100%. Just in advance.

A three-party system would be practical.

Well, for one thing you don't have to work.Says who?

What's to prevent 2/3rds of the population from just not working, and yet getting equal money and food? Where's my incentive to work?Where's your incentive to post here?

Second, the fact that not everyone is just as capable with power.All the more reason to decentralize it as much as possible.

It's actually rather sad that Teddy Roosevelt was talking about nationalized universal health nearly a hundred years ago and you still haven't got it....

I'm a moderate liberal myself. I say moderate liberal because while I tend to take a more liberal approach on most issues there are some times when I have a conservative viewpoint.

What do you think of...
Abortion: Depends on the reasoning. If the mother's life is in danger than I agree entirely that abortion is justified. But if the parents are just too lazy or think having a child would "inconvenience" them then they should've thought about that before they got all happy with each other and should be forced to have the baby.

Death Penalty: I believe life in prison is better because it's harsher. Either way you're going to die eventually, only difference is how long you spend your time suffering on earth and if someone does something truly horrible I want them to spend just as long suffering as their victims do.

Stem Cell Research: I'm not too thrilled with the way they get the stem cells, but at the same time it seems like a waste to have a way to save or improve so many lives and not take advantage of it.

Enviormentalism/Global Warming: Not the top of my agenda, but certainly something I want to do everything I can to stop.

Imperialism: Not cool

Surveillence: With a search warrant and just cause, okay. Otherwise, not okay.

Communism: Sucks

Fascism: Also sucks

Castro: Won't be around much longer.

Bush: I could go on forever about how much I hate him, but I'll just leave it with let's exile him to Iraq. He gets to be the country he obviously prefers anyway, and we get to be rid of the jackass.

Health Care: There should be both government-funded and privatized health care. That way people who can't afford health care are covered but people who can afford better can get better, and it will improve competition in the system.

Taxes: Based on income

Social Security: For the love of god don't privatize it, but don't let the government ruin it either.

Large Government/Small Government: In the end it's still the government. I don't care which one it is so long as it does what it should and none of what it shouldn't.

Gun Control: Enforce registrations and background checks and keep records of the fingerprints that guns tend to leave on bullets. If you ban guns only criminals will have 'em.

Partisanship: To hell with it, this country is so divided between democrats and republicans it's sick. They need just to learn to get along and compromise.