NationStates Jolt Archive

Authorities in Brazil are investigating reports that a young woman was left in a police cell with some 20 men for a month and repeatedly sexually abused.

The governor of the state of Para, where the reported case took place, has promised a full inquiry.

Governor Ana Julia Carepa said the age of the woman, put variously at 15 and 20, was irrelevant as she should not have been jailed with male prisoners.

Women's rights groups in Brazil say it is not an isolated case.

According to reports in the Brazilian media, the number of men in the cell with the young woman varied from between 20 to more than 30.

Media reports suggested that the girl was placed in a police cell in the town of Abaetetuba on suspicion of theft.

But human-rights groups say there is uncertainty about what offence the girl was accused of and she was not formally charged.

They say that she was raped relentlessly and forced to have sex in order to obtain food.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7108676.stm

:eek:

I... I lack words. It's horrific!

It's outrageous that it is allowed to happen. This was no mistake - this was for a month!

Gah! It's just terrible... This system is overdue for reform!

More about Brazilian jails and this case:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7109933.stm
The girl does not appear to have been helped by the involvement in the case of women officials at various levels.

According to Brazilian media reports the officer in charge of the station where the case was processed was a woman, who has since been suspended, while a woman judge who dealt with the case did not authorise a transfer.

They gave her a place to live and food to eat, what's the problem?

so Brazil is a shit hole where is the news?

its kind of worrying how the BRIC nations treat prisoners really

Brazil is bad, but it's no Congo (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/world/africa/07congo.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin).

I saw a movie about this guy who was an executioner, and he had sex with a woman on the male death row (she was the only one in the state).


It was a comedy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7108676.stm

:eek:

I... I lack words. It's horrific!

It's outrageous that it is allowed to happen. This was no mistake - this was for a month!

Gah! It's just terrible... This system is overdue for reform!

Oy...

Brazil is bad, but it's no Congo (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/world/africa/07congo.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin).

That makes me even more sad and horrified. :(

I guess she won't be stealing anytime soon...

I guess she won't be stealing anytime soon...

Not that it's certain that she ever did either! Grrr... :mad:

I... I lack words. It's horrific!
I'm sure I could probably come up with a stream of expletives that would give a reasonable indication of how I feel, but it wouldn't quite do it justice.

Emoticons were made for moments like these.
:(

I'm sure I could probably come up with a stream of expletives that would give a reasonable indication of how I feel, but it wouldn't quite do it justice.

Emoticons were made for moments like these.
:(

:( and :mad:

They gave her a place to live and food to eat, what's the problem?

She even got some free loving. I mean, some people pay for that! The government should charge her for everything that they provided her.:rolleyes:

No one deserves that, no matter the crime. We live in dark times. The causes of freedom and justice are waning, to be replaced with slavery, vengeance, and, worse yet, utter apathy.

At least this young woman and her cause is getting some attention out of this. Just as the true character of an individual is best judged by how he treats those in need and those who have slighted him, the true moral character of a society is best illustrated by how it treats its prisoners and its worst-off citizens. I hope the Brazilians, like all of us, take this opportunity to look at our collective selves in the mirror and ask if the society we're building is the one we want.

Not. Funny. At all.

i have no words :'(:'( :'(

I saw a movie about this guy who was an executioner, and he had sex with a woman on the male death row (she was the only one in the state).


It was a comedy.

No. It wasn't. Google "Strom Thurmond" "Sue Logue"

Brazil is made of phail :( :mad:

She even got some free loving. I mean, some people pay for that! The government should charge her for everything that they provided her.:rolleyes:

Hope someone gives you some "love". And why not your whole family? Wouldn't that be nice? retard

Brazil is made of phail :( :mad:

Pará is made of phail :mad::mad::mad:
You shouldn't judge a country for a part of it, as everyone elsewhere in Brazil is blaming Pará and its stupid people! :sniper::sniper:

Neither that state or the country are entirely made of phail.
Just... Mostly.

She even got some free loving. I mean, some people pay for that! The government should charge her for everything that they provided her.:rolleyes:

If she wasn't being so seductive, this would have never happened. There are more than just sex offenders in jail, and I'm sure the guy convicted of tax evasion isn't happy that some consenting slut is accusing him of rape. She knew what she was doing, and I'm not about to let this loose criminal play the gender card.

If she wasn't being so seductive, this would have never happened. There are more than just sex offenders in jail, and I'm sure the guy convicted of tax evasion isn't happy that some consenting slut is accusing him of rape. She knew what she was doing, and I'm not about to let this loose criminal play the gender card.

And how the hell should YOU know?? She was just a 15 year old girl!! Tax evasion? That was a common jail, man, only local muggers and shitheads go to those things. Pará is a poor state, and couldn't rebuild the women's hall, but put a girl in a cell with 20 men for a month? That is inhuman! :mad:

And such crap you say! You even look like one of those saudi judges blaming the gangrape on the woman ! We can only thank that the brazilian ones aren't doing that..

Hope someone gives you some "love". And why not your whole family? Wouldn't that be nice? retard
And how the hell should YOU know?? She was just a 15 year old girl!! Tax evasion? That was a common jail, man, only local muggers and shitheads go to those things. Pará is a poor state, and couldn't rebuild the women's hall, but put a girl in a cell with 20 men for a month? That is inhuman! :mad:

And such crap you say! You even look like one of those saudi judges blaming the gangrape on the woman ! We can only thank that the brazilian ones aren't doing that..

Some peoples sarcasm meters need some fixing.

Well, that's terrible. The superintendent of the jail (watch-house?) should face charges for either (a) being negligent of what was happening in the cell, or (b) permitting it to continue for so long.

Twenty prisoners should not be in the same cell. Prisoners on remand (not brought before a magistrate yet) should have the option of being individually housed. I don't have a problem with men and women being jailed in the same cell if they both agree.

Hell, jails are barbaric by default. It takes a lot of money to make them anything less than torture.

Some peoples sarcasm meters need some fixing.


Some people should know when (and how) to use sarcasm. That was not funny, or even appropriate. You have a very weird sense of humor.

Well, that's terrible. The superintendent of the jail (watch-house?) should face charges for either (a) being negligent of what was happening in the cell, or (b) permitting it to continue for so long.

Twenty prisoners should not be in the same cell. Prisoners on remand (not brought before a magistrate yet) should have the option of being individually housed. I don't have a problem with men and women being jailed in the same cell if they both agree.

Hell, jails are barbaric by default. It takes a lot of money to make them anything less than torture.

How can you be sure of lack of influence over the decision of the woman to "house" herself with a male?

Seems to me that environment is not necessarily a recipe for that sort of thing

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7108676.stm

:eek:

I... I lack words. It's horrific!

It's outrageous that it is allowed to happen. This was no mistake - this was for a month!

Gah! It's just terrible... This system is overdue for reform!

What's bad is that this could happen here in the US too, with our expanding prison population and our complete lack of prisons. I've heard of juveniles accused of underaged drinking or something ridiculous like that getting placed in with rape and murder inmates and getting raped. Simply due to sheer lack of space.

Some of these responses -- even if deliberately 'ironic' -- are completely lacking in reason and integrity.

Even if this were mock news (it's not), this is referencing rape. I believe that there is humor in most things, but there is no humor in this.

Deliberately placing any human being in a situation in which they will be sexually violated and needlessly terrorized is criminal. The fact that this individual is a minor just puts it over the top. Female, male, minor, adult: this is bleak; degrading; bankrupt; and par for the course.

Here's the part where I could make a passionate plea for common sense when responding to such posts: Statistically speaking, isn't it likely that someone who was raped and/or molested has had to endure some of the 'snarkier' (I'm being kind here) comments, so why post such things?

But then again, I suppose that is the point of these 'edgier' comments: to offend, to upset, to terrorize, maybe even to 'fish' for like minds. Because, of course, it's equally true that numerous rapists are viewing this thread, too.

So, I guess it all balances out. Kudos!

How can you be sure of lack of influence over the decision of the woman to "house" herself with a male?

I suppose you are referring to threats of violence, which are common in jails. They shouldn't be. There is no rehabilitative value in letting criminals define society within jail.

Seems to me that environment is not necessarily a recipe for that sort of thing

Seems to me it should be. But it would cost more.

I do see reduced access to sex as an inappropriate punishment for (for instance) housebreaking or gun crimes. It might make sense for rapists.

They gave her a place to live and food to eat, what's the problem?

If you are seriously asking that question, I doubt you'd understand the answer, and if you weren't your comment was tasteless and totally inappropriate.

Enjoy. Twenty guys should be enough to satisfy you!

I don't think he thought it through too well. :p

If you are seriously asking that question, I doubt you'd understand the answer, and if you weren't your comment was tasteless and totally inappropriate.

So what you're saying is "Have the same point of view as me or go away."

This is a discussion on a debate forum, I don't see why those you don't agree with are to be viewed as tasteless and/or inappropriate.

So what you're saying is "Have the same point of view as me or go away."

This is a discussion on a debate forum, I don't see why those you don't agree with are to be viewed as tasteless and/or inappropriate.

You said it.
This is a discussion on a debate forum

"It" was obviously misunderstood by you.

You know what?
That post is incredibly tasteless and vulgar.
Much like barbequed spam.

This is a very badly chosen topic for debate.

NSG can't solve relatively simple problems like "not taking offense at jokes."

To say we don't have the answers to prison overcrowding or a broken justice system in Brazil is an understatement.

So I'll repeat my first statement: what a terrible story! I'm very sorry for the girl, and I have faith that at least some of those male prisoners tried to stand up for her and see she had her human rights, in a situation where all of them were having theirs shat on.

It isn't right to assume that what happened was a month of gang-rape.

You said it.

"It" was obviously misunderstood by you.

I guess she won't be stealing anytime soon......but odds are she'll be an Hero pretty quickly.

You know what?
That post is incredibly tasteless and vulgar.
Much like barbequed spam.

Sure, be a hard-headed ass. It's not as if the little person can ever get equal air time around here. Funny how it's your way or no way at all.

Sure, be a hard-headed ass. It's not as if the little person can ever get equal air time around here. Funny how it's your way or no way at all.

Now you understand.
It's not "My way or the highway."
It's just "My way."

Now you understand.
It's not "My way or the highway."
It's just "My way."

Quality.

They gave her a place to live and food to eat, what's the problem?

No one should have to pay for their room and board (even in jail) with sex unless they want to. I'm getting the feeling that the young lady in question didn't really want to pay for her food by having sex with lots of men. That's my problem.

Now you understand.
It's not "My way or the highway."
It's just "My way."

Nope, I prefer Bob Dylan to Frank Sinatra.

*gets out on Highway 61*

No one should have to pay for their room and board (even in jail) with sex unless they want to. I'm getting the feeling that the young lady in question didn't really want to pay for her food by having sex with lots of men. That's my problem.

What do you mean?
Isn't that how women move up in the ranks of society today?
Or even manage to survive in society?

No one should have to pay for their room and board (even in jail) with sex unless they want to. I'm getting the feeling that the young lady in question didn't really want to pay for her food by having sex with lots of men. That's my problem.

The thing is, though, what if she consented only to raise hell later? I'm sure pervy prisoners are more myth than truth.

Let me refer to that lady in the Duke incident. She lied and everyone believed her because she was female. Making the "rapist" out of a convict would be a lot easier to sell, no?

What do you mean?
Isn't that how women move up in the ranks of society today?
Or even manage to survive in society?

I mean what I said. No one should have to pay for room and board with sex, unless they want to! Are there words in there that you don't understand?

I mean what I said. No one should have to pay for room and board with sex, unless they want to! Are there words in there that you don't understand?

Yea.
No one should have to pay for room and board with sex, unless they want to!
Those.

The thing is, though, what if she consented only to raise hell later? I'm sure pervy prisoners are more myth than truth.

Let me refer to that lady in the Duke incident. She lied and everyone believed her because she was female. Making the "rapist" out of a convict would be a lot easier to sell, no?

So some women lie about rape, we all do, all the time? That's why this is being investigated. All I said that she shouldn't have had to pay for food with sex if she didn't want to. If she did consent, then that's fine. Not my particular kink, but IDIC and all that.

So some women lie about rape, we all do, all the time? That's why this is being investigated. All I said that she shouldn't have had to pay for food with sex if she didn't want to. If she did consent, then that's fine. Not my particular kink, but IDIC and all that.

So it's actually unfair to be empathetic toward either side this early on.

Yea.

Those.

I'm not sure how much simpler I can make this. If a woman (or man) wants to get paid for sex, I have no problem with that. The story would appear to indicate that this young lady did not consent to sex in exchange for food - thus the problem.

I'm not sure how much simpler I can make this. If a woman (or man) wants to get paid for sex, I have no problem with that. The story would appear to indicate that this young lady did not consent to sex in exchange for food - thus the problem.

Maybe I should note that I am not playing Devil's Advocate..
more like Devil, or at least minor demon fiend.

So it's actually unfair to be empathetic toward either side this early on.

Since I'm human, and a feminist (and I know that the overwhelming number of rape accusations are not lies), my sympathies tend to lie with the woman. If it turns out she lied, which does happen, my sympathies would be with the accused.

Since I'm human, and a feminist (and I know that the overwhelming number of rape accusations are not lies), my sympathies tend to lie with the woman. If it turns out she lied, which does happen, my sympathies would be with the accused.

But to make a decision on who you side with at this time is simply wrong.

But to make a decision on who you side with at this time is simply wrong.

Did you actually read my post, or just decide on your own wht it said? I haven't made any decision to side with anyone. I said that my sympathies tend to lie with the woman, assuming the story is true. If not, and the woman pressed charges (I assume that one makes some sort of sworn statement when pressing charges in Brazil...), she should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Lying about rape makes it that much harder for the next person to press charges.

That is absolutely disgusting, how could that be a mistake if she was in there for a month? Ugh...

They gave her a place to live and food to eat, what's the problem?

Right. I assume that this is some sort of (very) tasteless joke. Because if not...

You are justifying rape. Good work.

And yes, I am well aware that it is entirely possible that she is lying about repetitive gang rape. It is also entirely possible that she is actually just a construct of your imagination. Neither are very likely.

South American prison administrations (and most prison administrations everywhere) are hives of scum and villainy run by power-hungry sadists who were probably bullied at school, or didn't get to bully enough. News at 11. The worst part about this story is I'm not at all shocked.

She probably spat in a cop's face or something, and they felt this was the way to get back at her. People are bastards, and lots of people will take any oppertunity to exploit any power they can get to make people suffer, and those people are naturally drawn to working in positions where they can abuse people, such as working in prisons. That's why most modern countries have checks and balances, while countries like Brazil that are riddled with corruption and a general administrative apathy towards suffering allow things like this to happen.

Excuse my lack of faith in humanity after reading something like this.

I've never once justified rape. Please do not put words in my mouth.

*grabs nearest thesaurus*

*lunges and shoves it down your throat*

Ha! Take that!

Right. I assume that this is some sort of (very) tasteless joke. Because if not...

You are justifying rape. Good work.

And yes, I am well aware that it is entirely possible that she is lying about repetitive gang rape. It is also entirely possible that she is actually just a construct of your imagination. Neither are very likely.

I've never once justified rape. Please do not put words in my mouth.

Did you actually read my post, or just decide on your own wht it said? I haven't made any decision to side with anyone. I said that my sympathies tend to lie with the woman, assuming the story is true. If not, and the woman pressed charges (I assume that one makes some sort of sworn statement when pressing charges in Brazil...), she should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Lying about rape makes it that much harder for the next person to press charges.
Being a feminist doesn't justify any sympathies you may, or may not have.
*grabs nearest thesaurus*

*lunges and shoves it down your throat*

Ha! Take that!

*chokes*

Yes, because saying that rape is OK as long as the person who is raped gets food and shelter is not justifying rape.

Am I missing the definition of justify here? Cause what I've got is "apologize: defend, explain, clear away, or make excuses for by reasoning." Maybe I have forgotten the meaning of these words or maybe you justified rape.

Yes, because saying that rape is OK as long as the person who is raped gets food and shelter is not justifying rape.

Am I missing the definition of justify here? Cause what I've got is "apologize: defend, explain, clear away, or make excuses for by reasoning." Maybe I have forgotten the meaning of these words or maybe you justified rape.

Where have I said it was "Okay"?

How you interpret my words is wrong. Do not put words in my mouth.

They gave her a place to live and food to eat, what's the problem?

This is the first post you made in this thread. Please explain to me how this is not saying that rape is OK as long as you get shelter and food.

Oookay, as the Brazilian here that likely posts the most, let me explain a few things:

1- Brazil isn't "made of phail" for this one event any more than the US is for the whole Terry Schiavo shenanigans.

2- Our PRISONS are very, VERY bad. Yes. That's a big problem and it pains me that there is no easy or foreseeable solution in the near future. That, however, doesn't make the country as a whole bad or corrupt.

3- The very fact that the media here is giving the news about this woman shows we do CARE about that.

4- Pará is one of Brazil's least developed states.

5- The moron that did this is being investigated by our DAs.

How does it not imply this? We are talking about a woman who was raped in prison. You say that it is no big deal, because she got food and shelter. This would imply that rape is OK as long as one gets food and shelter. Please explain to me any flaws in my logic.

This is the first post you made in this thread. Please explain to me how this is not saying that rape is OK as long as you get shelter and food.

It implies nothing of the sort.

How does it not imply this? We are talking about a woman who was raped in prison. You say that it is no big deal, because she got food and shelter. This would imply that rape is OK as long as one gets food and shelter. Please explain to me any flaws in my logic.

Your logic is flawed because you're putting word into my mouth. You have no proof that she didn't consent, or that it even happened. I in no way stated that rape was justifiable or okay. Do not attack me because you're incapable of interpreting simple US English.

If you're going to sympathize with someone based on their gender alone, expect me to disagree with you. Stop it with the accusations.

You are correct, I have no proof. Except that this was reported in a number of reputable news outlets. Except that fake claims of rape are rare compared to the number of convicted rapists.

Even if it was not true, your comment still implies that you believe rape is all right if the raped person receives shelter and food. We are discussing an (alleged) rape. You make a comment about how this (alleged) rape should not be complained about because the person who was (allegedly) raped also got food and shelter. This seems like justification of rape.

You are correct, I have no proof. Except that this was reported in a number of reputable news outlets. Except that fake claims of rape are rare compared to the number of convicted rapists.

Even if it was not true, your comment still implies that you believe rape is all right if the raped person receives shelter and food. We are discussing an (alleged) rape. You make a comment about how this (alleged) rape should not be complained about because the person who was (allegedly) raped also got food and shelter. This seems like justification of rape.

Sorry, no.

"Sorry, no," is not an answer to that. Please explain to me how your statement, which I will quote below again for clarity, does not imply that the (alleged) rape of this person is OK.

They gave her a place to live and food to eat, what's the problem?

If you wish, you can use short words to explain. Perhaps I will understand your argument better?

No. It wasn't. Google "Strom Thurmond" "Sue Logue"

No, it was. I laughed multiple times. The main characters mother was a porn star, who also had sex with people on death row, of which he was the lovechild of. It was a humorous movie.

"Sorry, no," is not an answer to that. Please explain to me how your statement, which I will quote below again for clarity, does not imply that the (alleged) rape of this person is OK.



If you wish, you can use short words to explain. Perhaps I will understand your argument better?
Sorry, no.

I'm not going to talk to a wall any longer.

That is not even a good cop-out. You still have to explain how this does not condone rape.

That is not even a good cop-out. You still have to explain how this does not condone rape.

Because I never fucking implied it, nor do I intend to. There. How's that?

*knocks on brick wall*

Hello?

What do you mean?
Isn't that how women move up in the ranks of society today?
Or even manage to survive in society?

That is a rhetorical question of such offensiveness, that it is irony by default. If you mean it, you will have to say it again, again without smilies.

Maybe I should note that I am not playing Devil's Advocate..
more like Devil, or at least minor demon fiend.

You want this stupid thread locked, perhaps?

===============

Since I'm human, and a feminist (and I know that the overwhelming number of rape accusations are not lies), my sympathies tend to lie with the woman. If it turns out she lied, which does happen, my sympathies would be with the accused.

Absolutely.

===============

But to make a decision on who you side with at this time is simply wrong.

Or to post on the subject at all. Like I said, dumb OP. Inflammatory, due to convergence of hot-button issues (crime, justice, rape, poverty vs. haha I-saw-this-porno.)

===============

Oookay, as the Brazilian here that likely posts the most, let me explain a few things:

1- Brazil isn't "made of phail" for this one event any more than the US is for the whole Terry Schiavo shenanigans.

2- Our PRISONS are very, VERY bad. Yes. That's a big problem and it pains me that there is no easy or foreseeable solution in the near future. That, however, doesn't make the country as a whole bad or corrupt.

3- The very fact that the media here is giving the news about this woman shows we do CARE about that.

4- Pará is one of Brazil's least developed states.

5- The moron that did this is being investigated by our DAs.

Good sense there. I'm glad something matters to you, and I'm glad I wasn't one of those who said "this shows how Brazil sucks."

No.

The first post in this thread was about an (alleged) rape. You then proceed to say: They gave her a place to live and food to eat, what's the problem?

This implies that there is no problem with rape if those conditions are met.

I'm not going to talk to a wall any longer.

Then read it.

If what you say is so easily construed to mean what I got from it, then perhaps you need to consider what you say more carefully.

No.

The first post in this thread was about an (alleged) rape. You then proceed to say:

This implies that there is no problem with rape if those conditions are met.

I know what I wrote and meant. You need to stop.

I know what I wrote and meant. Please don't hurt me.

Is this what you meant? Or was it a polite threat?

Being a feminist doesn't justify any sympathies you may, or may not have.

I'm not trying to justify shit. I'm saying that I haven't made any decisions yet!!!! I am HUMAN, and thus I have baises. Not being a journalist, nor a spokesperson for anything, I have no need to be impartial. Also, I fucking admitted that the lady in question may have lied, and that my sympathies would then shift to her hypothetical victims! Jesus God, could you please remove your head from your arse for a second and actually read what I've written?

No. It wasn't. Google "Strom Thurmond" "Sue Logue"

I did .. http://www.counterpunch.org/strom.html

Just a horn dog.. who sexed up his lover on her way to the chair..


oh and They gave her a place to live and food to eat, what's the problem?

I hope you are kidding

2- Our PRISONS are very, VERY bad. Yes. That's a big problem and it pains me that there is no easy or foreseeable solution in the near future. That, however, doesn't make the country as a whole bad or corrupt.

That's true.

The problem of corruption is huge in Brazil though...

*Recently saw the documentary Mander Bala, a kind of portrait of Brazilian corruption and a portrait of Jáder Barbalho (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jader_Barbalho)*

This problem *alone* doesn't show that the whole country is corrupt.

However, the sum of all problems, not just the ones in the media, but experiences in everybody's lives, shows that most brazillians are. It's that old vestibular dissertation: "Is corruption endemic?"

Yes, it is.

This problem *alone* doesn't show that the whole country is corrupt.

No, of course not.

However, the sum of all problems, not just the ones in the media, but experiences in everybody's lives, shows that most brazillians are. It's that old vestibular dissertation: "Is corruption endemic?"

Yes, it is.

Er, what? Brazilians are corrupt because ... wtf?

Sorry if I used terms you are not familiar with.

I did not state a cause for the problem. "Vestibular" is how we call the admission test for college. Part of it is writing an essay, and "Is corruption endemic?" is a commonplace subject.

Well, the brazillian people is corrupt since the country was colonized. What keeps corruption so widespread nowadays is a cycle: the people is corrupt and lazy, so most just don't want to work to reach a better standard of living. This corrupt, lazy people elects a government that keeps then in this condition, and so on.

For example, not only teachers in public schools are underpaid, but they must try to teach a class that simply does not want to learn. Either those children are influenced by their parents, or are just so hopeless they don't even want to try to study and enter a college, or anything like that.

The current brazillian government is just stupid and populist. Rather than elect a government that would really aim for education, they prefer to elect a government that gives them some money directly (the Bolsa Família*), not even paying attention to the fact that 50% of their income goes to this government already.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolsa_Fam%C3%ADlia#Benefit

That's true.

The problem of corruption is huge in Brazil though...

*Recently saw the documentary Mander Bala, a kind of portrait of Brazilian corruption and a portrait of Jáder Barbalho (http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jader_Barbalho)*

Isn't it "Mandar Bala"?

Also, yes, Jáder Barbalho is one of our most corrupt politicians. And corruption is a problem here, I don't deny it. But not enough to make Brazil a dystopia.

Even if I'd rather live in some other countries, like Canada. But not in the US.

This problem *alone* doesn't show that the whole country is corrupt.

However, the sum of all problems, not just the ones in the media, but experiences in everybody's lives, shows that most brazillians are. It's that old vestibular dissertation: "Is corruption endemic?"

Yes, it is.

Trust me, we here are more pissed off at our corrupt politicians than you are. =-p

This problem *alone* doesn't show that the whole country is corrupt.

However, the sum of all problems, not just the ones in the media, but experiences in everybody's lives, shows that most brazillians are. It's that old vestibular dissertation: "Is corruption endemic?"

Yes, it is.

You can't say for sure that it is. The fact that such corruption get this wide media coverage, however, is positive, because it shows that people are on the hunt for the corrupts. For years the coverage of corruption was scarce in Brazil, but recently after a few huge scandals such issues are getting much more attention, discouraging an entire generation of corrupts. It is a sign that things will get better eventually, and you can be sure, if corruption was really really terrible in Brazil, you wouldn't be hearing about this or any other government mistake on the news.

Even if I'd rather live in some other countries, like Canada. But not in the US.

Consider Australia. We're tolerant as anything, and if you get outta line we'll let you know.

Er, if you aren't too fussy about the odd correctional punch in the head, do please consider Australia.

And yeah, I wouldn't live in the US, for all the bucks in China.

Isn't it "Mandar Bala"?

Also, yes, Jáder Barbalho is one of our most corrupt politicians. And corruption is a problem here, I don't deny it. But not enough to make Brazil a dystopia.

Even if I'd rather live in some other countries, like Canada. But not in the US.

"Manda Bala (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0912590/)", actually - typos all around it seems ;)

It didn't portray Brazil as a a dystopia, but it left Sao Paulo with little honour. And it showed the Attorney General, I think it was, in a very positive light - as he was seen as someone who tried as best as he could to fight the problems.

I think there is a will to fight the corruption problem - but unfortunately, there's many who profits too much from it that stands in the way. So poor regions like this one ends up with the short end of the stick, having few resources and not enough political will to take action against corruption.

Of course, the entire debate about prison reform is a huge issue, and it should be taken seriously in the country. Especially when multiple levels of the judicial system, including the police, allows something like this to happen to an innocent-until-proven-guilty 15 year old girl.

Er, what? Brazilians are corrupt because ... wtf?

Sorry, I used words unfamiliar to non-brazillians.

"Vestibular" is how we call the admission tests to enter college. Part of these tests is to write an essay, and themes like "Is corruption endemic?" are commonplace.

So, I didn't state a "cause", but I can say some things about that (what follows now is my opinion, but I'm sure most informed brazillians would agree):

Corruption in Brazil comes from it's colonization. It's never been exclusive to the dominant classes. Today, it continues mostly due to the lack of education, and a general lack of will to evolve, which results in a cycle. "Lack of will to evolve" means most people are simply lazy. They just don't want to work properly and want all the money they can get without work (which means they often resort to small-scale corruption, and this is what I mean with corruption being endemic).

Now, instead of voting for a government that really aims for a quality education, this lazy, corrupt people prefer to vote for a populist government that gives them money directly (The Bolsa Família*). This government, in turn, keeps the education system the useless mess it is today, so that the population stays the same, and the government can keep it's power.

But what is the cause of all this lazyness? Well, let's have a look at the public education system. It's schools lack resources, funds, and it's teachers are very underpaid. Public colleges are very good, but are attended mostly by those who paid for private basic education and could pass the admission tests. That leaves most students at public schools completely hopeless, so we have underpaid teachers trying to teach students who don't want to learn. Basically, children only go to school for the food and the Bolsa Familia.

There's also the influence from their parents, who already are what their children will probably become, etc.

That's not all. The media does a wonderful job of keeping the population ignorant. South Norfair, you might really think people are "on the hunt" for corrupt politicians, but fact is, just after the news concerning corrupt politicians, come the news of the latest soccer matches, and everybody forgets about it.There have been many cases of corruption reported in the last three or four years, but as far as I know, none of those politicians are in jail. People never do anything besides complaining about the government, and everybody refuses to see it's also their own fault.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolsa_familia
P.S. A research from UNICAMP shows that about 50% of the lower classes' income goes to the government as a tax. So, the government actually takes more than it gives back with this Bolsa Familia. The irony...

Thanks for your reply (replies!) ... I'm a bit obsessed with our national election results just now, but this was interesting anyway.

Sorry, I used words unfamiliar to non-brazillians.

"Vestibular" is how we call the admission tests to enter college. Part of these tests is to write an essay, and themes like "Is corruption endemic?" are commonplace.

OK. "Vestibular" was the word which I couldn't follow.

So, I didn't state a "cause", but I can say some things about that (what follows now is my opinion, but I'm sure most informed brazillians would agree):

Corruption in Brazil comes from it's colonization. It's never been exclusive to the dominant classes. Today, it continues mostly due to the lack of education, and a general lack of will to evolve, which results in a cycle. "Lack of will to evolve" means most people are simply lazy. They just don't want to work properly and want all the money they can get without work (which means they often resort to small-scale corruption, and this is what I mean with corruption being endemic).

Now, instead of voting for a government that really aims for a quality education, this lazy, corrupt people prefer to vote for a populist government that gives them money directly (The Bolsa Família*). This government, in turn, keeps the education system the useless mess it is today, so that the population stays the same, and the government can keep it's power.

The WikiP article is written in rather strange English, but the Bolsa Família doesn't seem too extraordinary. Many countries have welfare payments to parents, and making it contingent on sending the kids to school and having them vaccinated makes the payment serve a purpose beyond that.

I can see how the two hard cutoffs (120 reais/month and 60 reais/month) would encourage poor people to misrepresent their income (ie corrupting) and there is a disincentive for people near the cutoffs to earn a little more legitimate income for fear of losing the benefit (in Australia and probably elsewhere, this is known as a poverty-trap. The fix is to have a sliding scale not hard cutoffs.)

But what is the cause of all this lazyness? Well, let's have a look at the public education system. It's schools lack resources, funds, and it's teachers are very underpaid.

Right. So making more parents send their kids to school would make public schooling worse.

Public colleges are very good, but are attended mostly by those who paid for private basic education and could pass the admission tests. That leaves most students at public schools completely hopeless, so we have underpaid teachers trying to teach students who don't want to learn. Basically, children only go to school for the food and the Bolsa Familia.

There's also the influence from their parents, who already are what their children will probably become, etc.

Is child homelessness still a big issue in Brazil? I'm wondering if the Bolsa Família helps with that at all.

That's not all. The media does a wonderful job of keeping the population ignorant. South Norfair, you might really think people are "on the hunt" for corrupt politicians, but fact is, just after the news concerning corrupt politicians, come the news of the latest soccer matches, and everybody forgets about it.There have been many cases of corruption reported in the last three or four years, but as far as I know, none of those politicians are in jail. People never do anything besides complaining about the government, and everybody refuses to see it's also their own fault.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolsa_familia
P.S. A research from UNICAMP shows that about 50% of the lower classes' income goes to the government as a tax. So, the government actually takes more than it gives back with this Bolsa Familia. The irony...

That's a crushing tax burden, if it's true. You need a more progressive tax system ... as something of a socialist, I think people who are too poor to feed their kids properly shouldn't pay any tax.

That is a rhetorical question of such offensiveness, that it is irony by default. If you mean it, you will have to say it again, again without smilies.

I didn't mean it.
;)
You want this stupid thread locked, perhaps?
Meh.

I didn't mean it.
OK. It looked like a joke, but maybe others don't read you as easily as I do.
;)
You fiend! I've never seen a more twisted and subversive use of the winkie. You're an evil genius ...

OK. It looked like a joke, but maybe others don't read you as easily as I do.

I'm glad someone can see through my outward appearance of a radical wife-beating racist homophobic Nazi-supporting KKK member bigot and into my inner Moderate. :)
You fiend! I've never seen a more twisted and subversive use of the winkie. You're an evil genius ...
*quickly drinks potion*
Don't encourage him!

*quickly drinks potion*
Don't encourage him!

Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Right?

For anyone reading our little chat, that really is a lovely story. No more than two hours reading, and up there with "the Portrait of Dorian Grey" as a punchy little morality tale for adults. Out of copyright, too.

Especially when multiple levels of the judicial system, including the police, allows something like this to happen to an innocent-until-proven-guilty 15 year old girl.

Aren't the accused generally the ones that are assumed innocent?

so Brazil is a shit hole where is the news?

its kind of worrying how the BRIC nations treat prisoners really

Proving you know nothing about Brasil.

The prison system seriously needs overhauling, as does the whole judicial system, but if you stay on the right side of the law, the country can be one of the best places in the world to live. (Avoid Rio de Janeiro, São Paulo and Brasília however - Big cities with lots of social problems, like anywhere else in the world)

Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Right?

Quite so.
For anyone reading our little chat, that really is a lovely story. No more than two hours reading, and up there with "the Portrait of Dorian Grey" as a punchy little morality tale for adults. Out of copyright, too.
Quite so.

*nodding*

Ah, Gravlen's trawling has netted a big fish!

AB Again, is it fair to say Brasil cannot afford to fix the public schools or to invest in sufficient jail-houses and courts to treat detainees decently?

Is Para the worst province? And is there any federal impetus to redress regional deficiencies?

Rio de Janeiro, São Paulo and Brasília are indeed huge cities which have grown fast. I don't know much about Brasil, but big cities which grow fast are always rife with social problems.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7108676.stm


I... I lack words. It's horrific!



So what was she wearing?? Come on, that orange jump suit and prison issue slippers/shoes....it's like you wanted it....

(I am sooooooooooooo kidding on this)

Aren't the accused generally the ones that are assumed innocent?

She was accused of stealing...

She was accused of stealing...

But a month in jail without charges laid is wrong, regardless of her age or how she was treated in jail.

Eh, I'm not sure what DL was getting at there. Perhaps "the jailers are entitled to a presumption of innocence" ...?

But a month in jail without charges laid is wrong, regardless of her age or how she was treated in jail.

Eh, I'm not sure what DL was getting at there. Perhaps "the jailers are entitled to a presumption of innocence" ...?

Yes, I agree with you. I wasn't sure what he was getting at either, which is why I said that.

Aren't the accused generally the ones that are assumed innocent?
Yes. I just wanted to highlight that she wasn't convicted of anything - she wasn't serving time, she was just left in the holding cell for a month. Not that it means anything, because that fact doesn't change the horrific nature of the story - and neither does her age, which seems to be a focal point for some of the debate (Did they know she was underage or not? Who cares?? It doesn't make it better if it was an adult that was subjected to such treatment!)

Ah, Gravlen's trawling has netted a big fish!

http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/char136.gifhttp://www.freesmileys.org/emo/char096.gif

The WikiP article is written in rather strange English, but the Bolsa Família doesn't seem too extraordinary. Many countries have welfare payments to parents, and making it contingent on sending the kids to school and having them vaccinated makes the payment serve a purpose beyond that.

I can see how the two hard cutoffs (120 reais/month and 60 reais/month) would encourage poor people to misrepresent their income (ie corrupting) and there is a disincentive for people near the cutoffs to earn a little more legitimate income for fear of losing the benefit (in Australia and probably elsewhere, this is known as a poverty-trap. The fix is to have a sliding scale not hard cutoffs.)

Sorry, but it's hard to find much more about this in any language other than portuguese. But I think you got the picture (though it's a pretty biased article). My own english isn't very good anyway.

I'm not against welfare, but in Brazil people are so poor that the political (electoral) effects are much bigger than the intended effects. It was supposed to be a temporary solution while the government worked on solving the country's problems, but it ended up being a good excuse for those in power to do nothing about them (and still get more votes).

It has it's good side, specially the vaccination condition, but I don't think it's enough to compensate for it's problems.


Right. So making more parents send their kids to school would make public schooling worse.

Not really, the problem is that the education their kids will receive in school just doesn't make much difference. It may reduce absolute illiteracy (right now at about 7%), but researches show that about 75% of the population can't read more than simple texts, and 40% can't even do that. 31% can't calculate a change (in commerce).

Besides, in some states or cities, they make laws so that you can' make a student repeat an year, cutting failure rates in order to make the education look better. Other just put so much bureaucracy that nobody tries to make anyone repeat. My gf's mother teaches portuguese language in a public school. Not only are her students utterly disinterested, but she has to make easy tests for them, or else they will just refuse to do them. Her state falls in the "lots of bureaucracy" category.

Also, in urban areas with more violence, it's not uncommon for teachers to be threated by students connected to drug traffic, if they give them bad grades.

Is child homelessness still a big issue in Brazil? I'm wondering if the Bolsa Família helps with that at all.


It's hard to tell. You do see many children in the streets, but most of them do have homes, and may or may not be going to school at another time of the day.


That's a crushing tax burden, if it's true. You need a more progressive tax system ... as something of a socialist, I think people who are too poor to feed their kids properly shouldn't pay any tax.

Most of these taxes are actually "hidden" in the prices of consumer goods, making this problem a little harder to solve (as if the government wanted to solve it in the first place).


AB Again, is it fair to say Brasil cannot afford to fix the public schools or to invest in sufficient jail-houses and courts to treat detainees decently?

Is Para the worst province? And is there any federal impetus to redress regional deficiencies?

Although not directed to me, let me answer these questions. AB can tell later if he agrees or not.

The taxes in Brazil are amongst the highest in the world. I think the government has enough funds to solve most of the country's problems, But most of it is wasted in useless public works or stolen by large-scale corruption.

About Para, it's hard to tell. Most of the country's agrarian expansion is currently happening there, which leads to much violence due to land possession conflicts, and it's a poor region overall. However, it's hard to get a good figure of states deeper within the amazon forest, and there are very poor states in the northeast, specially because of the drought in much of that region. I can say Piauí is the poorest state.

*snip reply to D'sL*

http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/char136.gifhttp://www.freesmileys.org/emo/char096.gif


Cute! But I suspect that ABA is too wary to really get hooked like that.

There's things that happen in my own country which just fill me with despair. Anyone who ignorantly says "Australia sucks because you treat the Aborigines so bad" is pretty much asking for a punch in the nose ... but the reason it makes me angry is that there's a grain of truth in it. It just doesn't seem fair when an ignorant guess strikes too close for comfort. :(

Because I never fucking implied it, nor do I intend to. There. How's that?

*knocks on brick wall*

Hello?

Other than insinuating that as long as she was sheltered and fed she had no real reason to complain about being raped, but hey, maybe you were misquoted.

Ah, Gravlen's trawling has netted a big fish!

AB Again, is it fair to say Brasil cannot afford to fix the public schools or to invest in sufficient jail-houses and courts to treat detainees decently?

Is Para the worst province? And is there any federal impetus to redress regional deficiencies?

Rio de Janeiro, São Paulo and Brasília are indeed huge cities which have grown fast. I don't know much about Brasil, but big cities which grow fast are always rife with social problems.

As with any government, what can be afforded is a matter of political will. There is very little will here to improve conditions in the penitentiary system, given that there are much more deserving cases for government spending (Basic infrastructure such as water, electricity, transport and sewerage in the North and North East.)

Is Para the worst state? I cannot say for certain that it is worse than Acre or Rondonia, but it is certainly in the group of the least developed states. I think that about 95% of Para is covered by Amazon rain forest, and is mostly uncivilized land. (By this I mean land that is still undeveloped and in its natural stste. No roads, no cities, no police, no law, nothing at all really - just jungle)

The education system is being fixed, but is constantly battling against increasing population in the poorest rural areas and in inner city regions. We now have something in the region of 95% of all children being enrolled in school. One of the big problems here though is that there has not yet been established, amongst the rural classes in particular, a culture of valuing education. Many subsistence farmers do not understand why education for their child will be of benefit, particularly when compared to the loss of the pair of hands to help working in the field. So there is a tendency for children to be removed from school to help the family produce enough food to survive.

While the educated middle classes can see that this is counter productive in the long term, what they often fail to see is that if the short term needs are not met then the long term is completely irrelevant. Thus schemes such as the bolsa familia which provide an escape path from this cycle are of much more importance to the society as a whole than a reform of the prison system.

That being said, there is an overall reform underway of the entire police and penitentiary services, but this is a slow process that has to root out some seriously endemic corruption.

As with any government, what can be afforded is a matter of political will. There is very little will here to improve conditions in the penitentiary system, given that there are much more deserving cases for government spending (Basic infrastructure such as water, electricity, transport and sewerage in the North and North East.)I was about to post in the same lines.. so now I just need to say ditto.

Emoticons were made for stuff like this. My suggestion for dealing with these men:
:mp5:

Or, we can let my sick side have a go. I can come up with some really agonizing ways to kill someone. For instance, throw shards of dry ice at them, or dunk them in a vat of liquid nitrogen. Or we could do a science experiment - put all the men in a watertight room, then fill it with liquid nitrogen.

Also throw in the corrections officer and the judge.

Emoticons were made for stuff like this. My suggestion for dealing with these men:
:mp5:

Or, we can let my sick side have a go. I can come up with some really agonizing ways to kill someone. For instance, throw shards of dry ice at them, or dunk them in a vat of liquid nitrogen. Or we could do a science experiment - put all the men in a watertight room, then fill it with liquid nitrogen.

Also throw in the corrections officer and the judge.

You aren't doing anyone any good, least of all yourself, with sadistic fantasies.

If it disturbs you that much, don't read it.

Let me put a hypothetical to you. Suppose you were mooching home one day, and suddenly there's cops all around you saying you robbed a house. They take you to the watch-house and throw you in a cell with twenty other guys. You can't afford a lawyer, so you just try to get along with the guys and wait to see if one of your family can raise a sufficient bribe to get you out.

Then one day, the jailers throw this young woman into the cell. She reminds you of your sister and you feel very protective, but you're shouldered out of the way by the bigger guys insisting on being the one to talk to her. There's two or three nice guys like yourself who don't like the look of what's happening, but the guards just laugh at you. The other guys start molesting the girl and you do what a decent fella does, regardless of the odds.

So you get the shit beat out of you. You won't give up, so they tie you to something solid with sheets, and you can't do a damn thing but watch as the bad guys fight with each other over the girl, and sexually assault her.

Well, that's a pretty horrible scenario, isn't it? But wait ...

The guards want to cover their asses. They have all the guys who did the wrong thing under their thumb, and their word is worth more in court than yours. You are going to get punished for something you did your utmost to stop.

But that's not all ...

because there's this guy from another country who's really pissed off about something he saw on the internet. He wants to mess you up, well let's call it like it is ... he wants to torture you ... to death.

Yep, that's really going to restore your faith in justice, isn't it? Where would the poor people of the world be without the 101st Keyboard to stand up for them?

Eh, I'm not sure what DL was getting at there. Perhaps "the jailers are entitled to a presumption of innocence" ...?

Yeah, that's what I was getting at. She's also entitled to her presumption of innocence for stealing, and odds are she's telling the truth... it's just odd how whenever something like this happens you get reactions like "kill the bastards!", even though though she's probably telling the truth, it's annoying.

Also I misread your post :p

Yeah, that's what I was getting at. She's also entitled to her presumption of innocence for stealing, and odds are she's telling the truth... it's just odd how whenever something like this happens you get reactions like "kill the bastards!", even though though she's probably telling the truth, it's annoying.


Yeah, it's a sticky one. I want more facts before saying anything much, but the testimony of prisoners against each other is never worth much. Prisoners talk to each other about their lives, without necessarily being friends but just to kill time, and that provides a very sound base for fabricated stories. There's compulsion and deals done in prison. Toss in a corrupt prisoner admin which wants to cover-up it's own complicity and can offer prisoners deals ... it's not worth much.

Every police-station in our country has video surveillance all over (it should be in the toilets too though) ... it just means the cops rough you up in the bullwagon if they're going to. There are places in Australia you really don't want to be needing a cop. EDIT: I lost the point a bit there. Video or even just audio would make it a lot plainer what part the jailers played in this.

As with any government, what can be afforded is a matter of political will. There is very little will here to improve conditions in the penitentiary system, given that there are much more deserving cases for government spending (Basic infrastructure such as water, electricity, transport and sewerage in the North and North East.)

Indeed. Fresh water and sewers save lives, and particularly the lives of children. I was going to criticize Brazil's military spending, but at about 4% of the budget it's not so bad, you get a lot of soldiers for not so much money. If they're used for construction or policing, all the better.

Is Para the worst state? I cannot say for certain that it is worse than Acre or Rondonia, but it is certainly in the group of the least developed states. I think that about 95% of Para is covered by Amazon rain forest, and is mostly uncivilized land. (By this I mean land that is still undeveloped and in its natural stste. No roads, no cities, no police, no law, nothing at all really - just jungle)

... and that gives me very conflicting feelings. I should have realized just from the thumbnail map in the article, that we're talking about the mouth of the Amazon here. The rainforest which greenies bewail the destruction of by these same modern facilities which would save lives and deliver law-enforcement.

I'm also wondering if there are intact communities of jungle-dwellers. Of course, their traditional social heirarchy (which must of course include some method of laws and punishments) would already be quite damaged by 'progress' ... it's an almost unavoidable tragedy of progress that old stable social systems break so badly as the Western spell of progress-as-entertainment starts to take hold. It's a bit like what happens when you take an old, sedate person and rush them, badger them to give quick answers or run around a virtual maze being shot at. They simply can't cope, might just drop dead of a coronary.

The education system is being fixed, but is constantly battling against increasing population in the poorest rural areas and in inner city regions.

And there'd be a lot of Catholic bunkum involved there, I'm guessing.

We now have something in the region of 95% of all children being enrolled in school.

That's excellent, subject only to my caveat below. Certainly if I must choose between a good universal education system, and a good universal justice system, I'd choose the schools. Adults can adapt to corrupt law-enforcement, but a kid can't learn on a farm what their carers don't know themselves.

One of the big problems here though is that there has not yet been established, amongst the rural classes in particular, a culture of valuing education. Many subsistence farmers do not understand why education for their child will be of benefit, particularly when compared to the loss of the pair of hands to help working in the field. So there is a tendency for children to be removed from school to help the family produce enough food to survive.

I have mixed feeling about child labor. Of course, it is easy to see any productive work done by children as Slavery: there's an economic incentive in that they don't need to be paid, and that rather drowns out consideration of the child's interests. "They're learning to work" the parent will say, or even "we'd both starve if my child didn't work" ... but I rather think in the West we carry the principle a bit too far, and insist that children are essentially useless. They must "work" in the sense of school-work, but we scrupulously avoid any external value flowing from that until they are in their mid-teens. No wonder so many kids treat school as a joke.

Farm work is socially cohesive, in the case of family farms, or every available pair of hands taking in the harvest before the rain. By being "useful" to their community, children value the cultural traditions that their parents or grandparents may be the last surviving remnants of. Of course I don't want them trying to live in the 19th century, and I'm only suggesting real work as a component of an education which stands on its own merits.

I guess I'm going off on a tangent here, into the thorny question of whether children live in the public sphere or the private sphere. Of whether they are citizens or property.

But I might add that teaching kids some stuff which would make them useful to their parents (well, reading and writing might be, at that) could justify those hours at school somewhat to the parents. For instance, carpentry or needlework might allow them to be useful to their parents in things the parents can't already do for themselves. We don't value manual skills much any more in Western education, but it certainly does no harm to learn some practical stuff.

While the educated middle classes can see that this is counter productive in the long term, what they often fail to see is that if the short term needs are not met then the long term is completely irrelevant. Thus schemes such as the bolsa familia which provide an escape path from this cycle are of much more importance to the society as a whole than a reform of the prison system.

Yes. I am seeing nothing to object to in the bolsa familia. I suggested a 'sliding scale' but I can see problems there with administration, assessing the income of people who no doubt deal a lot in cash and barter.

A simpler idea might be simply to pay it to every parent regardless of their income, for vaccinating their kid and sending them to school.

That being said, there is an overall reform underway of the entire police and penitentiary services, but this is a slow process that has to root out some seriously endemic corruption.

I will stress again that I don't know much about Brazil. But in Australia, some success has been had in these kind of problems by involving the oppressed people the government is trying to help. Traditional law is recognized in small matters, out in the Aboriginal communities, and things like video evidence adapted for cultural sensitivities. Affirmative action in the appointment of local officials, police etc does nothing to stop corruption, but it's kind of nicer corruption like nepotism or leniency, and less the sort of exploitative corruption of those who feel no bond with the community they are supposedly administering. The government throws money into the outback and it disappears, but that's a better result than these remnants of a culture which once was Australia, feeling ruled-over and kept down by another culture.

I guess Australia is rich enough to throw money away just so we can feel we did something. But I'm probably wrong in thinking that money is going to solve any problem. It's probably not the spacious jails and the video surveillance which makes the difference, but the time of the people who are employed to find a solution, it's paying them for the time they spend studying, and paying them for their demonstrations of goodwill and the time it takes them to experiment with different approaches to the problems.

That goes for corruption and for education and for reconciliation between provinces. But corruption is the hardest: money without goodwill just fattens the pockets of the corrupt.