NationStates Jolt Archive

Really - should people be allowed to do stupid stuff?

For example;

Should people be allowed to smoke even though we know it will lead to serious health troubles one day?

Should people be allowed to piss away their income without saving for their inevitable retirement even though we know that they will end up impovershed one day?

Should people be allowed to run up huge credit card debt even though we know that they will be unable to pay it back?

Should people be allowed to drop out of school even though we know that without an education they are unlikely to reach much success in life?

Should people be allowed to willingly overeat on poor mealls which will eventually kill them?

Etc. etc etc. should people be given the freedom to be stupid or not?

edit - most impotant - should people have to live with the results of their stupid decisions or does society (people who did not make stupid decisions) have a responsiblity to provide help for them to recover from their stupid decisions? (thereby meaning that there is little or no concenquence for making stupid decisions)


please share your opinion and rationalization.

Uh, fuck yes.

Define "mistake". If by mistake, you mean your examples, then yes. If by mistake, you mean wrongful wars and "accidentally" murdering someone, then no.

I think the more important question is "Can anyone ever have the right to stop people making mistakes?" To which, after quite a lot of debating and thinking, I think the answer would probably be "Certainly no human or human organisation, anyway."

Yeah, as long as they pay for the negative externalities caused by their behavior. You can fuck up and harm yourself all you want, because quite honestly I don't care about them or what they do with their lives (not to mention it might do us all a favor if they kill themselves quicker), but that stops when I have to foot the bill for their behavior.

People have to be able to make mistakes, or else we wouldn't learn lessons as a civilisation. If people did not break rules, then they would slowly start to lose their independent thinking, and then we would all lose innovation, new ideas (however flawed) and diversity.

In exchange for this freedom, however, people should be expected to pay for their mistakes.

Do you think then, that society has a responsibility to assist people in recovering from their stupid mistakes?

(general question - not directed to anyone)

Really - should people be allowed to do stupid stuff?
How exactly do you propose stopping everybody from doing stupid stuff?
For example;

Should people be allowed to smoke even though we know it will lead to serious health troubles one day?
Yes
Should people be allowed to piss away their income without saving for their inevitable retirement even though we know that they will end up impovershed one day?
Yep, how would you stop it anyways?
Should people be allowed to run up huge credit card debt even though we know that they will be unable to pay it back?
And again how would you stop it?
Should people be allowed to drop out of school even though we know that without an education they are unlikely to reach much success in life?
Ron Popeil
Should people be allowed to willingly overeat on poor mealls which will eventually kill them?
Why not?
Etc. etc etc. should people be given the freedom to be stupid or not? please share your opinion and rationalization.

Yes

Do you think then, that society has a responsibility to assist people in recovering from their stupid mistakes?

(general question - not directed to anyone)

Nope

Define 'allow,' really. If the consequence of all these actions are as fatal-death in the case of smoking, irrevocable poverty or the modern equivalent of being owned by the 'company store,' then are we really 'allowing' it? People can do them in all of those instances, but they are terminal ends-if we are to truly 'allow' them then there would be some sort of safety net that would allow for recovery from them, that your mistakes would not necessarily be fixed ends. Without it we are not so much 'allowing' it because the consequences trap those who make them.

It's not an absolute lock in either direction in all cases, (for instance, smoking and debt or even obesity are not the same kind of 'mistake,' as the causes of obesity despite how much people would like to simplify it are not just 'Papa want a milkshake') but if we only 'allow' for the terminal end to these mistakes we aren't really 'allowing' them at all.

who has the authority to label what is and isn't a mistake? :p

Do you think then, that society has a responsibility to assist people in recovering from their stupid mistakes?

yes, I would hope for the same treatment should I ever suffer a drug addiction for example

Really - should people be allowed to do stupid stuff?

For example;

Should people be allowed to smoke even though we know it will lead to serious health troubles one day?

Should people be allowed to piss away their income without saving for their inevitable retirement even though we know that they will end up impovershed one day?

Should people be allowed to run up huge credit card debt even though we know that they will be unable to pay it back?

Should people be allowed to drop out of school even though we know that without an education they are unlikely to reach much success in life?

Should people be allowed to willingly overeat on poor mealls which will eventually kill them?

Etc. etc etc. should people be given the freedom to be stupid or not? please share your opinion and rationalization.

Yes. As a libertarian I see personal freedom as the most paramount aspect of life. Whether that freedom be religious or any other. The role of government is not to interfere with this freedom. The only time you should be stopped is when your exercise of freedom interferes with another doing the same. As long as your behavior is not immediately hurtful to another's ability to live their life the way they see fit then smoke em if you got em.

Yeah, as long as they pay for the negative externalities caused by their behavior. You can fuck up and harm yourself all you want, because quite honestly I don't care about them or what they do with their lives (not to mention it might do us all a favor if they kill themselves quicker), but that stops when I have to foot the bill for their behavior.

Damn it, you have been living in my head!

As a libertarian I see personal freedom as the most paramount aspect of life.
Surely that should be "I see personal freedom as the paramount aspect of life, which is why I am a libertarian"? Presumably you have reasons other than your choice in political labelling for what you think about personal freedom.

Right? for some of us, it's an artform. :cool:

Right? for some of us, it's an artform. :cool:

Yeah, but when you do it it's not so much a 'mistake' as it is a 'diabolical plan'...

Yeah, but when you do it it's not so much a 'mistake' as it is a 'diabolical plan'...

You can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs. :)

You can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs. :)

Reason #308 why if there is even a chance of meeting LG I'm wearing a cup...

Should people be allowed to smoke even though we know it will lead to serious health troubles one day?

Personally I'd like to see smoking banned, but I don't see how it could be done without a huge public outcry. Restrictive age limits and heavy taxation are a good idea, but outright banning would probably be impossible democratically.

Should people be allowed to piss away their income without saving for their inevitable retirement even though we know that they will end up impovershed one day?

I support a mandatory, automatic payment of a certain percentage of salary into a pension fund. However, seeing as it is the person's own money, he should be able to make a withdrawal for a good reason. "I got fired and can't feed my family" is a good reason, whereas "I want to buy a Porsche" is not.

Should people be allowed to run up huge credit card debt even though we know that they will be unable to pay it back?

This is not really an issue for legislation. People can't run up huge debts, unless banks give them too high credit limits. Then, if credit limits are set individually based on what people can be expected to be able to pay back, I don't think it even can be legislated.

Should people be allowed to drop out of school even though we know that without an education they are unlikely to reach much success in life?

Depends. Are we talking about letting people drop out before completing first class, putting them through mandatory college, or something in between? Some amount of school education should be mandatory to keep the population from being complete morons; however, people have different interests, and if someone has an interest in manual work, giving him more education than he wants/needs is just a waste of resources. I recommend ten years, give or take a few.

Should people be allowed to willingly overeat on poor mealls which will eventually kill them?

The problem with this is that everybody needs to eat something, and although banning bad food would be beneficial, it just couldn't be done. Shutting down McDonald's wouldn't be enough; people could still cook unhealthy food. Instead, I would support laws to control the quality of the products of food producers to make available food as healthy as possible.

Etc. etc etc. should people be given the freedom to be stupid or not? please share your opinion and rationalization.

Overall, preventing stupid behavior with legislation is mostly beneficial to the people in question, the people around them, and the society and nation as a whole. It will keep people more healthy, often richer, and consequently happier.

However, things are usually more complicated than that, so simply banning anything that is potentially harmful can have unexpected and bad results. Any such law should be carefully planned.

Reason #308 why if there is even a chance of meeting LG I'm wearing a cup...

:D

Everyone makes mistakes. It's an inseparable part of intelligence.

... It's an inseparable part of intelligence.

or lack thereof

or lack thereof

I would argue that a person who thinks s/he doesn't make mistakes is too stupid to recognize when they do.

I would argue that a person who thinks s/he doesn't make mistakes is too stupid to recognize when they do.

And I'd agree with that



































































except for in the case of myself :rolleyes:;)

or lack thereof

Intelligence requires adaptation - learning. But that means you have to attempt to infer principles from your experience. This allows for mistakes.

A mechanical system that is created to follow certain principles, however, will do just that without error, but cannot be considered intelligent.

Everyone makes mistakes. It's an inseparable part of intelligence.or lack thereof
Intelligence requires adaptation - learning. But that means you have to attempt to infer principles from your experience. This allows for mistakes.

A mechanical system that is created to follow certain principles, however, will do just that without error, but cannot be considered intelligent.

Oh come on, my post was a joke

Oh come on, my post was a joke

*claps politely* :p

*claps politely* :p

Thank you
*bows deeply and backs off stage... misses stairs because wasn't looking*

It's a good question (I say yes, but I would take the time to inform someone if I thought they were about to make a decision that I consider a mistake without all the facts, like crossing a dangerous bridge)

The bigger question is whether we should help people out of their mistakes - I don't have a good solution, yet. NZ has a form of national insurance/assistance called Accident Compensation, given by the govt to all citizens. It means, when we hurt ourselves (or others hurt us), we don't have to sue anyone to get our medical and other costs paid for, including lump-sum payments if your injury changes your life significantly. It's given even if you were D.I.C and run into a lamp-post and bust your own stupid head. One never has to suffer costs as well as injuries, and it's brilliant.

But it doesn't cover illness (govt health and medical insurance for that), or the effects of non-injury mistakes, and I wonder about the latter - it's so much harder to judge the costs, for one thing. One gets married to the wrong guy, then divorced with two kids, and has one's career future destroyed whilst one looks after them. Another gets a criminal record or a drug habit when they're is young and stupid and can no longer travel or get jobs etc etc

I wonder if a compassionate society WOULD find a way to alleviate the costs of mistakes, on the grounds that we all make them no matter how well informed we are (can't predict everything), and some can truely suffer. But I don't know how it would be done. I guess there's a bit of a question about whether we SHOULD, or whether we believe people should face the consequences of their mistakes in toto, regardless of their suffering, as an object lesson to all, but I don't like the idea of using people as object lessons: I can't help but wonder if I'd want to be one. Accident Compensation doesn't make NZers more willing to experience pain. It just gives us a safety net to get out and live.

AC

People are going to make mistakes whether or not it's legal to. Unless you want to see everyone on the planet in jail, I think the answer is perhaps "yes".

However I'd like to make a special case for those mistakes that clearly could be avoided and are clearly a danger to other persons: for example, smoke all you like, but don't breathe in my face, please; drive as fast as you like on an empty motorway, but try not to endanger the lives of other drivers (or your passengers, I guess).

Of course, because you can't know that they're mistakes. They could be intentionally self-destrictive behaviour.

To prohibit them would be to prohibit individual freedom.

Really - should people be allowed to do stupid stuff?

For example;

Should people be allowed to smoke even though we know it will lead to serious health troubles one day?

Should people be allowed to piss away their income without saving for their inevitable retirement even though we know that they will end up impovershed one day?

Should people be allowed to run up huge credit card debt even though we know that they will be unable to pay it back?

Should people be allowed to drop out of school even though we know that without an education they are unlikely to reach much success in life?

Should people be allowed to willingly overeat on poor mealls which will eventually kill them?

Etc. etc etc. should people be given the freedom to be stupid or not? please share your opinion and rationalization.

There's this little thing called life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness... or free will, if you like. People should be able to do any bonehead thing they want as long as they understand the consequences and accept them.

Incidentally, I don't think anyone here's so perfect that they can afford to be deciding what some other person does with his or her life...

Really - should people be allowed to do stupid stuff?

For example;

Should people be allowed to smoke even though we know it will lead to serious health troubles one day?

In so far as it doesn't lead to me having serious health troubles, sure. (I don't smoke).

Should people be allowed to piss away their income without saving for their inevitable retirement even though we know that they will end up impovershed one day?

Impoverished. Anyway, most people have something they can sell (a car, a house, a collection). They might not live the good life, but they certainly won't starve.

Should people be allowed to run up huge credit card debt even though we know that they will be unable to pay it back?

There is a reason why banks do not give out loans that people can't pay back.

There is a reason why loansharks use more literal than metaphorical terms of "breaking your leg".

Essentially, you're stupid if you do it, but you're dumber if you're the one giving them money.

Should people be allowed to drop out of school even though we know that without an education they are unlikely to reach much success in life?

Primary education is a must in our society, seeing as how it's needed to function.

Secondary education should be heavily encouraged, however, some people already know what they want to do by then and might actually end up being succesful.

Tertiary education should also be heavily encouraged.

There is no need to make anything beyond primary education mandatory... yet.

Should people be allowed to willingly overeat on poor mealls which will eventually kill them?

They will die and stupid people will be outbred by smart people. This is natural selection in action.

Etc. etc etc. should people be given the freedom to be stupid or not? please share your opinion and rationalization.

Depends entirely on the type of stupid. I do not, for example, want anyone stupid enough to point a gun at me.

Point a gun at themselves though...

Anybody has the right to commit whatever "mistake" they want, so long as nobody else, or nobody else's property, is damaged in the process.

As long as their mistakes do not affect me negatively. Sure.

Do you think then, that society has a responsibility to assist people in recovering from their stupid mistakes?

(general question - not directed to anyone)

Society has a responsibility to see that society continues to function.

Should society provide for the education of children of people who don't invest in their kids education? Yes. Because of charity? Maybe, but certainly because educating each generation of kids costs less than incarcerating each generation of criminals.

Should we provide social security for people who lacked the means or foresight to invest sufficiently for their retirement? The alternative is swarms of elderly people begging on the streets or taking menial jobs depressing wages for the rest of the labor force simply because they were counting on their organs expiring before their bank accounts. Society has an interest in seeing that this doesn't happen.

For similar reasons a wealthy post-industrial society should provide food for the poor, medical care for the moderately wealthy (or lower), and tertiary education for all who want it. Because even those of us who don't get it benefit from sharing a society with people who don't become a burden on the rest of us for want of those things.

People should be able to do any bonehead thing they want as long as they understand the consequences and accept them.

Utterly wrong.

We shouldn't be able to do any bonehead thing we want and we don't always appreciate the consequences.

All we can accept is that we might have to take responsibility for our actions, and that responsibility might result in punishment.

In terms of stopping people from doing boneheaded things, it's my responsibility to point out consequences when I can see them - don't eat that berry, it's poisonous - but if my advice is not taken in this example, there's not much I can do.

Don't hit that child, there's a case for physical action in terms of my responsibility but then, really, we need a state to determine what the boundaries are as opposed to my own individual viewpoint in order to have some form of social harmony.

There is a strong case for stopping stupid behavior, it's the boundaries that are up for debate.

Do you think then, that Furries have a responsibility to assist vanillas in recovering from their banal sexuality?

(general question - not directed to anyone)

Skeptic, you were so right.

Once you change what other people say, everything that they stand for becomes so clear.

Should people be allowed to drop out of school even though we know that without an education they are unlikely to reach much success in life?as a high school drop out going to college on a full ride, with my school's honors program about to pay for me to spend a semester in europe, and a high likelihood of a fellowship making postgraduate education free for me as well, I have to say that I'm not feeling this point very strongly.

Anybody has the right to commit whatever "mistake" they want, so long as nobody else, or nobody else's property, is damaged in the process.
I agree with you. As long as their mistakes do not directly affect anyone else, I am fine with it.

Really - should people be allowed to do stupid stuff?

For example;

Should people be allowed to smoke even though we know it will lead to serious health troubles one day?

Should people be allowed to piss away their income without saving for their inevitable retirement even though we know that they will end up impovershed one day?

Should people be allowed to run up huge credit card debt even though we know that they will be unable to pay it back?

Should people be allowed to drop out of school even though we know that without an education they are unlikely to reach much success in life?

Should people be allowed to willingly overeat on poor mealls which will eventually kill them?

Etc. etc etc. should people be given the freedom to be stupid or not? please share your opinion and rationalization.

Yes, absolutely. People should be allowed to gamble away their life savings, not wear a seatbelt, or even commit suicide (provided they are of age) if they want to.

Yes, absolutely. People should be allowed to gamble away their life savings, not wear a seatbelt, or even commit suicide (provided they are of age) if they want to.

Eh?
If they aren't "of age", what would you have done to them after they commit suicide? Arrest them?
If my assumption that most people who commit suicide aren't exactly in their right mind is correct, then why should they "be allowed" to make the decision anymore than say, a child?

Eh?
If they aren't "of age", what would you have done to them after they commit suicide? Arrest them?
If my assumption that most people who commit suicide aren't exactly in their right mind is correct, then why should they "be allowed" to make the decision anymore than say, a child?

If someone isn't in their right mind then they shouldn't be allowed to gamble or drive either. That's another situation.

I'm saying that the law should not intervene to stop "of-age" suicide. As a matter of fact I believe suicide pills should be available in drug stores.

If someone isn't in their right mind then they shouldn't be allowed to gamble or drive either. That's another situation.

I'm saying that the law should not intervene to stop "of-age" suicide. As a matter of fact I believe suicide pills should be available in drug stores.

Ah.

How exactly would the law "intervene"?
Unless the suicidal individual attempts and fails to commit suicide (which is sad in more ways than one), there is nothing the law can do anyway.

I agree that people should have the right to do so, but it won't stop me from thinking they are cowardly and weak individuals.

Ah.

How exactly would the law "intervene"?
Unless the suicidal individual attempts and fails to commit suicide (which is sad in more ways than one), there is nothing the law can do anyway.

Intervene by having someone who fully intends to commit suicide (they may say) by somehow restraining the person.

I agree that people should have the right to do so, but it won't stop me from thinking they are cowardly and weak individuals.

Cowardly and weak? It seems more like impatience to me. If it is weak, Darwin is at work. I personally think that if you want to die, why not just give yourself over to the government for a suicide mission? Make yourself useful for Pete's sake!

Intervene by having someone who fully intends to commit suicide (they may say) by somehow restraining the person.

That might work. I always thought that announcing one's plan to commit suicide was rather inane. As if not a single person would try to stop you...well, if that is the case then the suicidal tendency is understandable..

Cowardly and weak? It seems more like impatience to me. If it is weak, Darwin is at work. I personally think that if you want to die, why not just give yourself over to the government for a suicide mission? Make yourself useful for Pete's sake!
I'm pretty impatient, but not about living.
I agree with the usefulness factor though.

That might work. I always thought that announcing one's plan to commit suicide was rather inane. As if not a single person would try to stop you...well, if that is the case then the suicidal tendency is understandable..

True. Most people who "announce" their suicide plans are just attention whores.

I'm pretty impatient, but not about living.

I'm looking forward to dying, but I'm in no rush. That's why I'm not technically suicidal. Life going to end anyway, is the suffering so intense that you can't take a few lousy decades?

I agree with the usefulness factor though.

Just so. I figured that if I ever wanted to commit suicide I'd just sign-up with the armed forces and make for the most dangerous area of the war, then go out with bullets flying. With suicide everyone remembers you as a wussy, but if you die in battle you're remembered as a hero. More importantly the life you don't want is actually put to the benefit of society.

True. Most people who "announce" their suicide plans are just attention whores.
Most probably.
I'm looking forward to dying, but I'm in no rush. That's why I'm not technically suicidal. Life going to end anyway, is the suffering so intense that you can't take a few lousy decades?
Well, I must admit I am quite interested to find out what happens once the body fails. But I can wait a good century or so being as there is so much more to figure out/experience about life.

Just so. I figured that if I ever wanted to commit suicide I'd just sign-up with the armed forces and make for the most dangerous area of the war, then go out with bullets flying. With suicide everyone remembers you as a wussy, but if you die in battle you're remembered as a hero.
Exactly.
More importantly the life you don't want is actually put to the benefit of society.
Well, theoretically.

Well, I must admit I am quite interested to find out what happens once the body fails. But I can wait a good century or so being as there is so much more to figure out/experience about life.

The way I figure it is that death can't possibly be "bad"...unless Dante's Inferno actually exists....

Well, theoretically.

At least useful to fellow soldiers. Throw your self on a grenade, or go-out taking down the enemy when the group is pinned-down.

yes

Really - should people be allowed to do stupid stuff?

For example;

Should people be allowed to smoke even though we know it will lead to serious health troubles one day?

Should people be allowed to piss away their income without saving for their inevitable retirement even though we know that they will end up impovershed one day?

Should people be allowed to run up huge credit card debt even though we know that they will be unable to pay it back?

Should people be allowed to drop out of school even though we know that without an education they are unlikely to reach much success in life?

Should people be allowed to willingly overeat on poor mealls which will eventually kill them?

Etc. etc etc. should people be given the freedom to be stupid or not? please share your opinion and rationalization.

Yes, they should. At least in the United States and any other country that purports to be free. The more you try to protect people from themselves, the more you feed into and support their incompetence. They will either learn to stop making mistakes or die.

Really - should people be allowed to do stupid stuff?

Basically, yes. It's all keyed on being non-harmful to others.

Should people be allowed to smoke even though we know it will lead to serious health troubles one day?

This is the one example I'd restrict. Smoking directly damages the health and well being of those around you and should be allowed only with the express consent of those around you. To do otherwise, is in my view, a physical assault, and should be treated as such.

Should people be allowed to piss away their income without saving for their inevitable retirement even though we know that they will end up impovershed one day?

Yep, no problem.

Should people be allowed to run up huge credit card debt even though we know that they will be unable to pay it back?

If the creditor extends that level of credit, they share the responsibility. If the credit was extended with full knowledge, tough on both of you. If financial circumstances were concealed it's fraud.

Should people be allowed to drop out of school even though we know that without an education they are unlikely to reach much success in life?

Depends on the age level. There should be a couple of intermediate levels of consent between today's minor/adult divide that extend beyond the few rights we give older minors.

Should people be allowed to willingly overeat on poor mealls (sic) which will eventually kill them?

Yep. feeding children poorly is a different story.

Etc. etc etc. should people be given the freedom to be stupid or not? please share your opinion and rationalization.

As long as they hurt nobody, sure.

Yeah, as long as they pay for the negative externalities caused by their behavior. You can fuck up and harm yourself all you want, because quite honestly I don't care about them or what they do with their lives (not to mention it might do us all a favor if they kill themselves quicker), but that stops when I have to foot the bill for their behavior.

Pretty much right on.

rights stop where wrongs begin.

shure everyone has a 'right' to do whatever they damd well please, as long as the're not causing someone else's suffering by doing so, or creating incentives for creating the conditions that cause suffering. the same suffering those who so loudly decry the lack of right to "make mistakes" that injure others, so often blindly whine of, while refusing to even admit to themselves their own contribution to causing it!

the universe has a right too, which is beyond anything tangably living to alienate, to kick the assess of everyone who adamantly chooses to ignore the reality of cause and effect. while it is often more a matter of probability then certainty, it freequently does.

=^^=
.../\...

Uh, fuck yes.
QFT.

Sounds like a recipe from the Orwell cookbook to me.

Sounds like a recipe from the Orwell cookbook to me.

Letting people make mistakes is Orwellian? Wuh?

Really - should people be allowed to do stupid stuff?

For example;

Should people be allowed to smoke even though we know it will lead to serious health troubles one day?

Should people be allowed to piss away their income without saving for their inevitable retirement even though we know that they will end up impovershed one day?

Should people be allowed to run up huge credit card debt even though we know that they will be unable to pay it back?

Should people be allowed to drop out of school even though we know that without an education they are unlikely to reach much success in life?

Should people be allowed to willingly overeat on poor mealls which will eventually kill them?

Etc. etc etc. should people be given the freedom to be stupid or not? please share your opinion and rationalization.

I'm going to respond to this from a slightly different tack:

It find it disturbing that a question like this woul deven come up. When you say "allow" the inevitable conclusion is that it would be up to the State to allow/disallow these activities. That invites an unprecedented level of control over individuals. By giving the State the authority to make these judgement calls you're curtailing liberty to a point that would make even the most severely tyrannical regimes in history cringe.

You're also assuming the State would limit your freedoms with your best interests at heart. It won't. Just look at us today. Do you really think mandatory car airbags are for YOUR best interest? Do you think speed limits are set arbitrarily low for YOU best interest?

No. Let's look at the airbag. Here's an active restraint system that's deployed by an explosive charge that's roughly equivalent to a shotgun shell. This explosive is aimed right at your face. To maximize safety, you're supposed to sit as far back from it as you can. (Does anyone else find it unnerving that you have to take steps to protect yourself from a system t hat's suposed to make you safe?) People have been killed by airbags, especially people who are very short and have to sit right on top of the steering wheel in order to reach the pedals. (How do I know this? I used to be a Master-certified mechanic.)

Who benefits from this?

Well your airbag system has to be completely replaced after an accident. An airbag module (The part that contains the bag and the explosive charge) costs anywhere from $1,500 to $3,000 EACH. (All new cars are Federally mandated to have 2 of them.) You also have to replace the control unit (The computer that decides when it's time to fire the airbag.) which can easily run from $600 to $1,200. So if your car is in an accident that causes the airbags to deploy, you're looking at anywhere from $3,600 to $7,200 JUST IN AIRBAG SYSTEM PARTS to repair. That jacks the odds of having it totaled considerably, doesn't it?

Ever wonder why only the more expensive cars have side curtain airbags? Because it adds 2 to 4 more airbag modules to add into that cost. Have a more expensive vehicle that isn't a luxury car, like a 4x4 pickup truck? They don't have the side airbags to boost the price they have something called active seatbelts. They have a one-time-use charge in the seatbelt unit that forces them to contract tightly in an accident, and it's deployed with the airbags.

Who benefits?

As Mr. Limbaugh would say, follow the money. Who gets all of the money for the cost of those repairs or new cars? Dealerships... and where do they get the parts and cars from? Auto Manufacturers. And do the big Auto makers have influence in Congress? Hell yeah.

And that's why airbags are Federally mandated.

So, given the above example, even if you don't care about your own freedom, can you still trust your Government to look out for YOU?

Letting people make mistakes is Orwellian? Wuh?
Are we from the same planet? Big Brother? Nanny state? 1984?

Are we from the same planet? Big Brother? Nanny state? 1984?

Which would be more like not letting people make mistakes.

Exactly right. Now, with that in mind: Could you please tell me where I said : "Letting people make mistakes is Orwellian"? Because I think that you said that, not me.

Exactly right. Now, with that in mind: Could you please tell me where I said : "Letting people make mistakes is Orwellian"? Because I think that you said that, not me.

You said:
Sounds like a recipe from the Orwell cookbook to me.

Since you didn't seem to be replying to anyone, thus it's safe to assume that you were replying to the thread in general itself.

Should people have the right to make mistakes?
Sounds like a recipe from the Orwell cookbook to me.

Reads like you're saying that allowing people to make mistakes is Orwellian.

who has the authority to label what is and isn't a mistake? :p

you mean like you do below?

yes, I would hope for the same treatment should I ever suffer a drug addiction for example

If you already know it is a mistake then why do it? If you are the one who sought drugs then shouldn't you also be the one to seek treatment?

snip--, can you still trust your Government to look out for YOU?

we pretty much agree - but I'm most interested in reading posts like this one; http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13236314&postcount=19

This is a person who is either grossly undecided or actually favors authoritarianism and is trying to soften it - either for our benefit or their own - with arbitrary exceptions.

I think this question is the most important one a person must decide when selecting their political affiliations. I only wish politicans from BOTH us parties weren't so selective about what side of this issue they want to stand on at any given moment.

It's a good question (I say yes, but I would take the time to inform someone if I thought they were about to make a decision that I consider a mistake without all the facts, like crossing a dangerous bridge)

The bigger question is whether we should help people out of their mistakes - I don't have a good solution, yet. NZ has a form of national insurance/assistance called Accident Compensation, given by the govt to all citizens. It means, when we hurt ourselves (or others hurt us), we don't have to sue anyone to get our medical and other costs paid for, including lump-sum payments if your injury changes your life significantly. It's given even if you were D.I.C and run into a lamp-post and bust your own stupid head. One never has to suffer costs as well as injuries, and it's brilliant.

But it doesn't cover illness (govt health and medical insurance for that), or the effects of non-injury mistakes, and I wonder about the latter - it's so much harder to judge the costs, for one thing. One gets married to the wrong guy, then divorced with two kids, and has one's career future destroyed whilst one looks after them. Another gets a criminal record or a drug habit when they're is young and stupid and can no longer travel or get jobs etc etc

I wonder if a compassionate society WOULD find a way to alleviate the costs of mistakes, on the grounds that we all make them no matter how well informed we are (can't predict everything), and some can truely suffer. But I don't know how it would be done. I guess there's a bit of a question about whether we SHOULD, or whether we believe people should face the consequences of their mistakes in toto, regardless of their suffering, as an object lesson to all, but I don't like the idea of using people as object lessons: I can't help but wonder if I'd want to be one. Accident Compensation doesn't make NZers more willing to experience pain. It just gives us a safety net to get out and live.

AC

I would break it down to a simpler situation. 'Bob" runs up his credit card debt to crazy levels while working as a pizza delivery person. Then Bob goes out and has three beers after work. On the way home Bob gets arrested for DUI at a checkpoint. He loses his license and his job. Now he cannot pay his massive credit cards. Does society have a responsibility to bail him out or should he cope with his concenquences?

Next - step up to a more complex one. Mary, who is 17, likes to piss off her mom. She meets a boy with serious substance abuse problems who her parents forbid her to see. Mary sneaks off and elopes with him. She gets pregnant by him. He cannot keep a job because he constantly shows up late and/or stoned. He soon gets arrested for dealing drugs. Mary works two part time jobs to pay the rent. When he gets out of jail he disappears... Does society have a responsibility to help Mary recover from her stupid decisions or should she have to cope with her concenquences?

finally - consider a more complex one; Gary loves food - and it shows. He works for a modest wage. He foregoes employer sponsored healthcare so he can have more money to spend on gourmet foods. He has a heart attack at age 45 and gets hit with medical bills over $20,000. he also finds out he has diabeties. Gary is now unable to get medical coverage due to his poor health and the liklihood that he will need continued expensive care and treatment. It was his decision to refuse coverage when he was eligible and his decision to pursue a poor health lifestyle - should he now have to deal with the concequences himself or should society bail him out?

If people shouldn't be allowed to make stupid mistakes, especially when those might affect other people too, then I can think several political parties for which they shouldn't be allowed to vote... ;)

we pretty much agree - but I'm most interested in reading posts like this one; http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13236314&postcount=19

This is a person who is either grossly undecided or actually favors authoritarianism and is trying to soften it - either for our benefit or their own - with arbitrary exceptions.

I am, for the most part, centrist. I don't know whether you'd consider that to be the same as undecided, but I just want to find the best possible balance between health/happiness/productivity and freedom. I agree with Neo Bretonnia on that the American government is far too corrupt for common good, but that doesn't mean that it should be so, that it couldn't be anything else, or that all governments in the World are the same.

When it comes to personal freedom, I'm all for it... to a certain point. If some freedom is such that practicing it can only cause harm, and no reasonable person would ever do it, that freedom is worthless. There is no reason why the only options when it comes to freedom should be all and nothing.

Really - should people be allowed to do stupid stuff?

For example; it depends. Some mistakes don't JUST affect the one making the mistakes.

Should people be allowed to smoke even though we know it will lead to serious health troubles one day? grey area. after all, person A smokes, but the second hand smoke can cause health problems for those around him/her like family. do we allow those around smoker A to suffer from his/her choice?

also should we pay for their mistakes. health insurance can rise as more people end up seeking payment for health problems as a result of smoking. thus causing premiums to rise accross the board.

Should people be allowed to piss away their income without saving for their inevitable retirement even though we know that they will end up impovershed one day? another Grey area. what of Welfare? that can be seen as the Government's attempt to correct lack of savings during hard times? what of the person's family? should they suffer also?

Should people be allowed to run up huge credit card debt even though we know that they will be unable to pay it back? this I say is a personal problem. there are companies out there that can help them. they just gotta ask.

Should people be allowed to drop out of school even though we know that without an education they are unlikely to reach much success in life? yes. I know alot of people who only have a HS degree that do quite well for themselves. also with adult education and HS Equivlancy Diplomas... that is a mistake that can be corrected.

Should people be allowed to willingly overeat on poor mealls which will eventually kill them? Yes, personal choice and all.

Etc. etc etc. should people be given the freedom to be stupid or not? only when it doesn't affect alot of others or if they were NOT mislead (Enron).

you can drink yourself to inebreation, but you make the choice to drive home...

Do you think then, that society has a responsibility to assist people in recovering from their stupid mistakes?

(general question - not directed to anyone)Yes. That is after all ultimately the purpose of society.

That might work. I always thought that announcing one's plan to commit suicide was rather inane. As if not a single person would try to stop youThe purpose of doing so is to get someone to stop you.

True. Most people who "announce" their suicide plans are just attention whores.Wrong.

Making mistakes is not a right, its a duty. To yourself, firstly, because if you never make mistakes, or take the risk to, you will never learn. And then to society, to contribute to the pool of life experiences and participate to the betterment of humanity.
Or so the argument goes...

I am, for the most part, centrist. I don't know whether you'd consider that to be the same as undecided, but I just want to find the best possible balance between health/happiness/productivity and freedom. I agree with Neo Bretonnia on that the American government is far too corrupt for common good, but that doesn't mean that it should be so, that it couldn't be anything else, or that all governments in the World are the same.

When it comes to personal freedom, I'm all for it... to a certain point. If some freedom is such that practicing it can only cause harm, and no reasonable person would ever do it, that freedom is worthless. There is no reason why the only options when it comes to freedom should be all and nothing.

ALL government is corrupt - therefore the more limited it's power the better.

Yes. That is after all ultimately the purpose of society.
.

Wow - talk about a large unjustified presumption...

Wow - talk about a large unjustified presumption...It's not unjustified. I didn't substantiate it, so it's unsubstantiated, but not unjustified.

It's not unjustified. I didn't substantiate it, so it's unsubstantiated, but not unjustified.

I dunno why - but your reply made me laugh.. the good kind, not at you...

I dunno why - but your reply made me laugh.. the good kind, not at you...Heh. If you want, I could substantiate the statement.
Why do you live amongst people?

Anybody has the right to commit whatever "mistake" they want, so long as nobody else, or nobody else's property, is damaged in the process.

As a seemingly 'all-encompassing' answer that is meant to garner universal support, your response fails to answer the question. The OP is not asking what the current state of affairs is, but rather the hypothetical. Also, many people do not have the right to do what they choose so long as they don't harm anyone else, or anyone else's property. Drug use is illegal even though there is no garauntee that it would negatively effect others. Owning military grade weaponry (in most cases) is illegal even though it may not harm other people/property. Not only is your answer in itself incorrect, but you also did not give a stisfactory answer to the OP.

Just saying.

There's this little thing called life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...

Umm, actually, in America there is no right to the pursuit of happiness. That line is from the Declaration of Independance, and not from the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, any Amendment thereto, or any state law (as far as I know).

Basically it was a way to make more complaints against the British, but the pursuit of happiness is never garaunteed to any American citizen based on law... it just sounded nice.

ALL government is corrupt - therefore the more limited it's power the better.

I don't know what to say in response to this. You define corruptness by it's worth in power. One could argue that if the gov't has no power (say to collect taxes, or distribute education, or make roads), neither can it use that power to benefit people. The gov't has the power to assign people to jury duty, this is for the benefit of society, that the accused can have a fair trial by unbiased peers. The gov't collects taxes to pay for, say, your literacy, or your ability to know anything about politics (in which it seems to have failed, you clearly are bereft of such knowledge). The gov't has the power to distribute welfare, so that single mothers, who are caring for the children of negligent fathers need not do everything alone. The gov't has the power to attempt to protect us from external threats, so that if another naiton wants to take us over, hopefully we can fend them off, so that we can continue to recieve the benefits of the gov'ts power, which need not always be corrupt.

Way to think about it all though....

Really - should people be allowed to do stupid stuff?

For example;

Should people be allowed to smoke even though we know it will lead to serious health troubles one day?

Should people be allowed to piss away their income without saving for their inevitable retirement even though we know that they will end up impovershed one day?

Should people be allowed to run up huge credit card debt even though we know that they will be unable to pay it back?

Should people be allowed to drop out of school even though we know that without an education they are unlikely to reach much success in life?

Should people be allowed to willingly overeat on poor mealls which will eventually kill them?

Etc. etc etc. should people be given the freedom to be stupid or not?

edit - most impotant - should people have to live with the results of their stupid decisions or does society (people who did not make stupid decisions) have a responsiblity to provide help for them to recover from their stupid decisions? (thereby meaning that there is little or no concenquence for making stupid decisions)


please share your opinion and rationalization.

People DO have the right to make mistakes. It's whether or not the state ought to acknowledge this 'right' that I think you're aiming for. And if that means supporting the people who made the mistake, no. If it means punishing people who have made mistakes, then yes, they should be given the freedom to make mistakes. In ALL CIRCUMSTANCES.

One could argue that if the gov't has no power (say to collect taxes, or distribute education, or make roads), neither can it use that power to benefit people. The gov't has the power to assign people to jury duty, this is for the benefit of society, that the accused can have a fair trial by unbiased peers. The gov't collects taxes to pay for, say, your literacy, or your ability to know anything about politics (in which it seems to have failed, you clearly are bereft of such knowledge). The gov't has the power to distribute welfare, so that single mothers, who are caring for the children of negligent fathers need not do everything alone. The gov't has the power to attempt to protect us from external threats, so that if another naiton wants to take us over, hopefully we can fend them off, so that we can continue to recieve the benefits of the gov'ts power, which need not always be corrupt.

Way to think about it all though....

There's no such thing as an "unbiased peer." Everyone has a bias. If they didn't, they couldn't come to a decision on whether or not the defendent is guilty.

There's no such thing as an "unbiased peer." Everyone has a bias. If they didn't, they couldn't come to a decision on whether or not the defendent is guilty.

Umm, evidence is usually not considered bias. However, I will grant you a little exception. They attempt to find people without many relevant biases regarding the issue at hand.

Only as long as their stupid mistakes don't negatively impact others...yes.

Making mistakes is not a right, its a duty. To yourself, firstly, because if you never make mistakes, or take the risk to, you will never learn. And then to society, to contribute to the pool of life experiences and participate to the betterment of humanity.
Or so the argument goes...

And this has been the feeling of the American people right up until the Bush administration.

Bankruptcy for example. Yes being smart and hard working and ambitious are plusses when you're trying to start a business. But the single biggest factor, bigger than all the others put together I would argue, is luck. Businesses that succeed do so by accident. Sometimes people will try to show you that when they succeed that it is no accident. They will then show you the long string of failures that a particular tycoon encountered before finally getting lucky.

Bankruptcy was the way that such stories were possible. You contact some people and ask them to invest in your business. Convince them that you've got a plan and that they might make money off of your hard work and they lend you money. If the business fails and you can still pay back your creditors, fine. They'll be happy to lend you money next time. If not, file bankruptcy and try again somewhere else, better luck next time.

Society lifts the burdens of your mistakes when you can't do it yourself. As a result, society helps you become a success one day and benefits from the byproducts of your success. And if you don't, then lenders have to be more wary of lending to you.

Now the individual has to bear the burden of the lenders mistakes. And to make it worse, the lenders deliberately lend to the worst credit risks because on paper that person is a bad risk, but in reality it's a sure thing because ordinary people can't file bankruptcy anymore.

Really - should people be allowed to do stupid stuff?

For example;

Should people be allowed to smoke even though we know it will lead to serious health troubles one day?

Should people be allowed to piss away their income without saving for their inevitable retirement even though we know that they will end up impovershed one day?

Should people be allowed to run up huge credit card debt even though we know that they will be unable to pay it back?

Should people be allowed to drop out of school even though we know that without an education they are unlikely to reach much success in life?

Should people be allowed to willingly overeat on poor mealls which will eventually kill them?

Etc. etc etc. should people be given the freedom to be stupid or not?

edit - most impotant - should people have to live with the results of their stupid decisions or does society (people who did not make stupid decisions) have a responsiblity to provide help for them to recover from their stupid decisions? (thereby meaning that there is little or no concenquence for making stupid decisions)


please share your opinion and rationalization.

It's not my responsibility to protect the stupid. Fuck them.

Sounds like a recipe from the Orwell cookbook to me.

Letting people make mistakes is Orwellian? Wuh?

No, not in the 1984 sense. He wrote a cookbook in which, in lieu of standard imperial units, all the measurements are given in relative terms.
a pinch
a dash
a splash
a dallop
a handful
a heft

The cook is then left to learn how to custom tailor the recipes to suit his own tastes, and eventually outgrow the cookbook altogether.

Why do you live amongst people?

Sex is more fun when you're not alone...

Sex is more fun when you're not alone...Heh. Well, why didn't you learn how to make sex more fun alone than with another person?

I don't know what to say in response to this. You define corruptness by it's worth in power. One could argue that if the gov't has no power (say to collect taxes, or distribute education, or make roads), neither can it use that power to benefit people. The gov't has the power to assign people to jury duty, this is for the benefit of society, that the accused can have a fair trial by unbiased peers. The gov't collects taxes to pay for, say, your literacy, or your ability to know anything about politics (in which it seems to have failed, you clearly are bereft of such knowledge). The gov't has the power to distribute welfare, so that single mothers, who are caring for the children of negligent fathers need not do everything alone. The gov't has the power to attempt to protect us from external threats, so that if another naiton wants to take us over, hopefully we can fend them off, so that we can continue to recieve the benefits of the gov'ts power, which need not always be corrupt.

Way to think about it all though....

That is the universal seduction of big government - that they will only use their power to help people - so just give it a little more....

You ignore the fact that most of these benefits can come from sources other than government. -- the seduction begins...

Always beware someone who says this;
We're from the Government and we're here to help you. (http://cannablog.wordpress.com/2007/11/10/were-from-the-government-and-were-here-to-help-you/)

Only as long as their stupid mistakes don't negatively impact others...yes.

It is an unavoidable fact of live that ALL of your decisions affect other people for better or for worse.

Drug addicts parents are affected. Compulsive gamblers families are afected. Pregnant teens parents are affected. Crack babies are affected. Lottery winners families are afected. Hard working buninessmen children are affected. Ties that bind...

Every decision you may will affect someone in one way or another.

Heh. Well, why didn't you learn how to make sex more fun alone than with another person?

what's your point?

And this has been the feeling of the American people right up until the Bush administration.

LOL! Are you capable of having a conversation which does not relate to the Bush administration? FFS.



Bankruptcy for example. Yes being smart and hard working and ambitious are plusses when you're trying to start a business. But the single biggest factor, bigger than all the others put together I would argue, is luck.

That's not entirely true. Don't confuse luck with opportunity. Perfect example - the first person who IBM went to for an OS was not Bill Gates - it was actually Gary Kildall. Gary very foolishly squandered this opportunity. Bill was able to fully actualize this opportunity. Go back to Xerox for more lost opportunities. They seem stupid now, but at the time...
The primary factor is not luck - or even opportunity (opportunity abounds if yo uknow where to look) it is simply not being stupid. Take a hard look at new businesses as they open near you and it does not take long to see stupid mistakes. Poor location, poor hiring, poor bookeeping, poor advertizing, just a plain poor concept, poor planning. etc. etc. etc. It is sad to me how many people think that running a business is like field of dreams Build it and they still won't come.



Businesses that succeed do so by accident. Sometimes people will try to show you that when they succeed that it is no accident. They will then show you the long string of failures that a particular tycoon encountered before finally getting lucky.

Not so. Business that fail do so for very good reaons - same for businesses which succeed. Luck and accidents are very minor roles compared to the effort, intelligence and sacrafice of the entrepreneur.

Bankruptcy was the way that such stories were possible. You contact some people and ask them to invest in your business. Convince them that you've got a plan and that they might make money off of your hard work and they lend you money. If the business fails and you can still pay back your creditors, fine.
ummm - by definition a business failure means that you cannot pay your creditors and suppliers.
[QUOTE=Domici;13238694]
They'll be happy to lend you money next time. If not, file bankruptcy and try again somewhere else, better luck next time.
apparently you have very little experience with bankruptcy, credit or business.

Society lifts the burdens of your mistakes when you can't do it yourself. As a result, society helps you become a success one day and benefits from the byproducts of your success. And if you don't, then lenders have to be more wary of lending to you.
This reads like a fairytale.

Now the individual has to bear the burden of the lenders mistakes. And to make it worse, the lenders deliberately lend to the worst credit risks because on paper that person is a bad risk, but in reality it's a sure thing because ordinary people can't file bankruptcy anymore.


ROFLMAO! This is so disconnected fro the real world I don[t know where to begin...

LOL! Are you capable of having a conversation which does not relate to the potatoes? FFS.



That's not entirely true. Don't confuse luck with soil ph level. Perfect recipe - the first state who McDonalds went to for french fries was not Idaho - it was actually Colorado. Colorado very foolishly squandered this opportunity. Idaho was able to fully actualize this opportunity. Go back to Colorado for more lost opportunities. They seem stupid now, but at the time...
The primary factor is not luck - or even soil ph. (acidity abounds if yo uknow where to look) it is simply not being stupid. Take a hard look at new businesses as they open near you and it does not take long to see stupid mistakes. Poor location, poor hiring, poor bookeeping, poor advertizing, just a plain poor concept, poor planning. etc. etc. etc. It is sad to me how many people think that running a business is like field of dreams Build it and they still won't come.

Once again you show your anti-Irish bigotry with words I made up and replaced your own with. Will you never outgrow your ignorance Skeptic?

People should be allowed to make mistakes as long as the only person they are hurting is themselves. Sometimes that's the only way people learn.

Should people be allowed to drop out of school even though we know that without an education they are unlikely to reach much success in life?


There are so many examples proving that wrong, hopefully me soon being one of them.

I have a shitload of plans, not a single one of them involving me needing credentials from school. And I'm sure not a dumbass. I meet MENSA qualifications. I have had so many people, even my own family, recognize my intelligence. And I plan on living without school.

School is, generally, a prison. Especially in America, I swear it makes you dumber. It's obediance traning. It's training to go where you're told even if you don't want to be there. It's training to do something you're ordered to do just because, without even wondering if it has a purpose. It's training to compromise your individuality and creativity for obediance and service. It's training to make you believe that you have to spend your entire life working your ass off to be worth anything. It's training to believe you have an obligation to obey laws you didn't create, and serve a society that doesn't serve you. It's training to do what you're taught and not to explore your personal talents Fuck school.

More people should drop out, this nation would gain in intelligence. I will make my life meaningful without it. My only regret is that there are so many universities out there with so much learning potential that still accept students based on money, and an absolutely worthless 12 years of de-education.

what's your point?That it was a mistake that you didn't learn how to make sex better alone...

Should people be allowed to drop out of school even though we know that without an education they are unlikely to reach much success in life?


There are so many examples proving that wrong, hopefully me soon being one of them.

I have a shitload of plans, not a single one of them involving me needing credentials from school. And I'm sure not a dumbass. I meet MENSA qualifications. I have had so many people, even my own family, recognize my intelligence. And I plan on living without school.

School is, generally, a prison. Especially in America, I swear it makes you dumber. It's obediance traning. It's training to go where you're told even if you don't want to be there. It's training to do something you're ordered to do just because, without even wondering if it has a purpose. It's training to compromise your individuality and creativity for obediance and service. It's training to make you believe that you have to spend your entire life working your ass off to be worth anything. It's training to believe you have an obligation to obey laws you didn't create, and serve a society that doesn't serve you. It's training to do what you're taught and not to explore your personal talents Fuck school.

More people should drop out, this nation would gain in intelligence. I will make my life meaningful without it. My only regret is that there are so many universities out there with so much learning potential that still accept students based on money, and an absolutely worthless 12 years of de-education.

Once you believe that school is training to do this or that why don't you just jump through the hoops in the knowledge that it'll work out best for you?

Once again you show your anti-Irish bigotry with words I made up and replaced your own with. Will you never outgrow your ignorance Skeptic?

Potatoes? Who said anything about potatoes? Me thinks you've got too many potatoes on your mind... or is it mushrooms???

The best part of all is I am Irish - and I love potatoes... w cabbage, carrots and corned beef... mmmmm.

That it was a mistake that you didn't learn how to make sex better alone...

Whatever floats your boat...

Should people be allowed to drop out of school even though we know that without an education they are unlikely to reach much success in life?


There are so many examples proving that wrong, hopefully me soon being one of them.

I have a shitload of plans, not a single one of them involving me needing credentials from school. And I'm sure not a dumbass. I meet MENSA qualifications. I have had so many people, even my own family, recognize my intelligence. And I plan on living without school.

School is, generally, a prison. Especially in America, I swear it makes you dumber. It's obediance traning. It's training to go where you're told even if you don't want to be there. It's training to do something you're ordered to do just because, without even wondering if it has a purpose. It's training to compromise your individuality and creativity for obediance and service. It's training to make you believe that you have to spend your entire life working your ass off to be worth anything. It's training to believe you have an obligation to obey laws you didn't create, and serve a society that doesn't serve you. It's training to do what you're taught and not to explore your personal talents Fuck school.

More people should drop out, this nation would gain in intelligence. I will make my life meaningful without it. My only regret is that there are so many universities out there with so much learning potential that still accept students based on money, and an absolutely worthless 12 years of de-education.

There you have it kids - the secret to success.... drop out of school, pursue ambiguous 'plans' and disregard the society you live in.... :rolleyes: Intelligent =/= successful nor any entitlement to it. Surely you don't need to be a member of MENSA to figure that out.

People should be allowed to make mistakes as long as the only person they are hurting is themselves. Sometimes that's the only way people learn.

please see post 88;

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13240342&postcount=88

Your position is a fallacy.

Should people be allowed to drop out of school even though we know that without an education they are unlikely to reach much success in life?

Yes, we don't need to waste our tax dollars on kids who don't want to be in school becasue they f*ck it up for the rest of us. Also, I personally would not like higher competition for getting into colleges and high paying jobs that would result if more people were forced to stay in school. I know that would-be drop-outs don't seem like much competition but I'm sure if we forced education down people's throats at least a few more kids would take school seriously. In total, I like high drop-out rates becasue it means more money for my secondary education and smaller class sizes for my post-secondary education. (except, I suppose truant officers are soaking up a lot of money, we really need to stop caring about drop-outs becasue they don't care for themselves)

:fluffle:

Really - should people be allowed to do stupid stuff?

For example;

Should people be allowed to smoke even though we know it will lead to serious health troubles one day?

Should people be allowed to piss away their income without saving for their inevitable retirement even though we know that they will end up impovershed one day?

Should people be allowed to run up huge credit card debt even though we know that they will be unable to pay it back?

Should people be allowed to drop out of school even though we know that without an education they are unlikely to reach much success in life?

Should people be allowed to willingly overeat on poor mealls which will eventually kill them?

Etc. etc etc. should people be given the freedom to be stupid or not?

edit - most impotant - should people have to live with the results of their stupid decisions or does society (people who did not make stupid decisions) have a responsiblity to provide help for them to recover from their stupid decisions? (thereby meaning that there is little or no concenquence for making stupid decisions)


please share your opinion and rationalization.

No, many mistakes infringe on the freedoms of others.

Example: Mr. Dumbass works at a nuclear powerplant, he presses the wrong button in hopes of getting a magical carpet but instead blows up the plant and exposes the once beautiful tourist attraction he lives in to a nuclear waste dump, now people don't have the freedom to enjoy the once beautiful landscape.

Another example that applies to us more, because unhealthy and destructive habits are allowed the general populace becomes less healthy because more people are doing self destructive things, as a result the living standard goes down which lowers the rights we have because the law would have to crack down on them because if they don't people would be dying left and right, which would not coincide with the democratic value of life. Secondly due to cause and effect most of the mistakes and bad choices we make negatively effect others, especially the youth. That does not agree with the democractic ideal of posterity. Also the most ironic of all hurting oneself in pursuit of happiness *gasp* doesn't even agree with that because self destructive actions make one unhealthy ergo unhappy. There will also be a lack of welfare because with everyone being self destructive the services won't be able to keep up.

:fluffle They're gonna do it anyway!

Really - should people be allowed to do stupid stuff?

For example;

Should people be allowed to smoke even though we know it will lead to serious health troubles one day?

Should people be allowed to piss away their income without saving for their inevitable retirement even though we know that they will end up impovershed one day?

Should people be allowed to run up huge credit card debt even though we know that they will be unable to pay it back?

Should people be allowed to drop out of school even though we know that without an education they are unlikely to reach much success in life?

Should people be allowed to willingly overeat on poor mealls which will eventually kill them?

Etc. etc etc. should people be given the freedom to be stupid or not?

edit - most impotant - should people have to live with the results of their stupid decisions or does society (people who did not make stupid decisions) have a responsiblity to provide help for them to recover from their stupid decisions? (thereby meaning that there is little or no concenquence for making stupid decisions)


please share your opinion and rationalization.

No, many mistakes infringe on the freedoms of others.

Example: Mr. Dumbass works at a nuclear powerplant, he presses the wrong button in hopes of getting a magical carpet but instead blows up the plant and exposes the once beautiful tourist attraction he lives in to a nuclear waste dump, now people don't have the freedom to enjoy the once beautiful landscape.

Another example that applies to us more, because unhealthy and destructive habits are allowed the general populace becomes less healthy because more people are doing self destructive things, as a result the living standard goes down which lowers the rights we have because the law would have to crack down on them because if they don't people would be dying left and right, which would not coincide with the democratic value of life. Secondly due to cause and effect most of the mistakes and bad choices we make negatively effect others, especially the youth. That does not agree with the democractic ideal of posterity. Also the most ironic of all hurting oneself in pursuit of happiness *gasp* doesn't even agree with that because self destructive actions make one unhealthy ergo unhappy. There will also be a lack of welfare because with everyone being self destructive the services won't be able to keep up.

No. In fact, I think we should imprison everyone, so they can't make mistakes. Damn non-perfect people.

No. In fact, I think we should imprison everyone, so they can't make mistakes. Damn non-perfect people.

Non-perfect people = people not on NSG?

Potatoes? Who said anything about potatoes? Me thinks you've got too many potatoes on your mind... or is it mushrooms???

The best part of all is I am Irish - and I love potatoes... w cabbage, carrots and corned beef... mmmmm.

A self-hating Irishman. How sad.

Should people have the right to make mistakes?Only if those mistakes have no consequences for other people or their environment.