NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, taking a look at all the hot-button political issues in the US like abortion, Alaskan Drilling, Stem Cell, Iraq, etc., I was wondering: What are important issues for Europeans? What are your guys' hot button issues and what ideological stance determines whether you support a candidate/party or not?

They have an illegal immigration problem that may surpass the US problem in scale.

They have an illegal immigration problem that may surpass the US problem in scale.

Really? To match our 500,000-700,000 a year?

Really? To match our 500,000-700,000 a year?

aye, lots more borders.

speaking a British person are hot button issues are erm...well not even the E.U really mostly the weather I guess

I didn't the issue you listed where hot button either, aren't there supposed to be disagreement or something?

They have an illegal immigration problem that may surpass the US problem in scale.

no are batshit insane have a problem with migrant workers from eastern Europe which have become Muslims as the mirror would have you read

edit: though a hot button issue for me is why I just got out of bed to post on NS

edit2: what decides are candidates is a battle between rich conservatives (to my south) and working class new labour-for-lack-of-an-option (to my north)

What are important issues for Europeans?
Tea.

Tea.

And the bigger problem, what do serve with tea... scones or crumpets?

Tea.

two sugars, any less and the Irish win

And the bigger problem, what do serve with tea... scones or crumpets?

I usually go for biscuits because I'm not a southern pansy :p

Europe? Good question. I haven't heard much from there lately. They solved that 30 Years' War thing, right? That looked messy. :(

two sugars, any less and the Irish win
:D

*applauds*

One of the few times I literally lol’d.

I usually go for biscuits because I’m not a southern pansy :p
Quite partial to a potato scone myself.

Or just good ol’ toast.


Europe? Good question. I haven't heard much from there lately. They solved that 30 Years' War thing, right? That looked messy. :(
Just... don't go there man.

*stares off into middle-distance*

I can't speak for Europe in general, but if you regularly check Spiegel's international pages, or DW's website, you'll see what keeps Germans interested.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/0,2142,1432,00.html
http://www.spiegel.de/international/

It's usually questions about economic reforms, how the major parties are getting along in their grand coalition, the odd school- and education scandal and a bit of climate change. At the moment you can add questions about the strong Euro and a massive train conductor strike (similar to the one in France actually but about even more of a non-issue).

I also like this article, even though it has little if anything to do with the topic: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,498578,00.html

It's usually questions about economic reforms, how the major parties are getting along in their grand coalition, the odd school- and education scandal and a bit of climate change. At the moment you can add questions about the strong Euro and a massive train conductor strike (similar to the one in France actually but about even more of a non-issue).

be honest though, do you really think any of our issue are "hot button" like America is with its abortion

be honest though, do you really think any of our issue are “hot button” like America is with its abortion
Nicking NL’s post...

I don’t think there’s any one issue that gets so many people riled up, like gay marriage or gun rights do in the US. Perhaps you could say Iraq did, back in 2003-4... but even then.

be honest though, do you really think any of our issue are "hot button" like America is with its abortion
Apart from maybe climate change, probably not. But there's little disagreement on climate change as such (the public supports any policy targeting it, politicians want to be seen to be doing something but also have to juggle the lobbyists and real economic impacts).

The thing with American politics is that because religious groups carry not only influence at the polls, but also have enormous power to shape the language in which these issues are being debated, "hot button" issues almost always boil down to questions of very fundamental morality. And if you have good and evil at war with each other, it becomes very hard not to turn the whole thing into a giant spectacle.

I think political discourse in Germany is a lot calmer than that. The biggest issues are very secular in nature, so you can debate in terms of what works, rather than what's "right". It's made easier by the major parties being more focused than the American ones (which have to incorporate many different ideologies and opinions) and generally not disagreeing about the most fundamental questions of what the state is and what it does. This (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,518671,00.html) is a really good article about the current political situation, by the way.

I suspect that's different again in France, where the left is a lot stronger in shaping the debate and can reduce something as mundane as a pension reform for train conductors into something approaching class warfare. Complete with setting fire to trains.

Complete with setting fire to trains.
Setting fire to train signals.

An important difference.

An important difference.
In general, yes. To my argument, no. ;)

It just strikes me as the most cynical farce I've seen in a long time. It's blatantly obvious that under the current system, they've got it so much better than everyone else that I can only describe it as unfair. It's incomprehensible to me that they could kid themselves into thinking they're fighting for anything but their own piece of pork barrel spending.

Meanwhile, Sarkozy's got chauffeurs, it's the average commuter who suffers. I reckon a pretty good case could be made to have more trains run by computers, fully automatically. I believe there's one line in Paris that still runs because it's automatised. Sarko should announce a few hundred million to make the conversion happen and then ask the unions: "If you want the job, you're not gonna get the early pensions. And if you don't want it, no one is forcing you, go and do something else."

no are batshit insane have a problem with migrant workers from eastern Europe which have become Muslims as the mirror would have you read



Huh?

What are important issues for Europeans? I am not European, but I do travel often to Europe.
IMO all global issues are important to Europeans.

If you want want to find a local Issue that is staring them from close range.. it gotta be the political future of the multinational entity being formed as we speak.. the EU.

There is quite a bit of conflicting opinions about what/how/who should this EU be. So much so.. that lately my Europeans friends dont want to debate/discuss it with me (or between them).. actually most of them dont even want to talk about it.

Giving birth is sometimes painful, giving birth is a mess sometimes...

The future of the E.U. is the biggest issue for most people in Europe, paticularly the UK. Also in the UK the Iraq debacle features highly too, but less so in other european nations. No one has an answer to either issue, though.

Generally I think most europeans take a broader view of affairs, and there are several issues that are close to peoples hearts, but none of which have the "button push" affect of things like taxes, abortion of statism in the US.

Globalization, the EU, welfare reforms, taxes, immigrants (legal or illegal, depending on the country), and Iraq. And of course, a ton of other shit that's particular to the individual nations.

Immigration, Iraq, Global Warming and probably some other stuff.

People don't get so worked up about stuff as in the U.S.

((For the record, tea should be with scones, but not with crumpets. Flavour clash.))

I think it depends on the country.In Greece particurarly it's poverty,low wages,high rates of unemployment,lack of rights and freedom,the non-existing social welfare and the hall neoliberal attack.

I guess the question of whether or not an EU country can expell citizens from another EU country could be mentioned.

State secretary investigating possibility of deporting EU citizens

The Immigration and Naturalisation Service (IND) and the police forces of Haaglanden and Rotterdam-Rijnmond are investigating the possibilities of deporting citizens of other EU member states if they repeatedly cause a nuisance or are repeatedly guilty of violent offences.

The study is being carried out for State Secretary for Justice Nebahat Albayrak.

The pilot project is intended to identify the limits of what is allowed by European legislation on this point. Albayrak regards an ‘accumulation of crimes and nuisance’ as such a serious threat to society as to warrant deportation.

Albayrak said earlier in a letter to parliament that citizens of the recent new member states of the EU (Romania and Bulgaria) ‘commit crimes’ but that the ‘threshold for deportation’ is high.

In Italy there was uproar this week when the government issued an emergency decree to deport groups of Romanians who caused nuisance and were involved in criminal activity.

Fred Teeven (VVD) has called on the state secretary to produce a similar measure as soon as possible.

The free movement of persons within the EU is a fundamental right. A European law that entered into force last year gives citizens of other member states a high level of protection against deportation.

The pilot project that is underway in the regions of Haaglanden and Rotterdam-Rijnmond is intended to ‘more clearly identify the limits of the term threat’ in specific cases, so that EU citizens can still be deported as undesirable aliens if they repeatedly cause a nuisance or commit crimes.

(NRC Handelsblad, Thursday 8 November page 1)


And related:
Romanians and Bulgarians anxious to come to the Netherlands

Romanians and Bulgarians are extremely keen to come and live in the Netherlands. During the first nine months of 2007 almost 6,000 Romanian and Bulgarian immigrants entered the Netherlands, which is six times the number of immigrants last year.

These figures were published by Statistics Netherlands (CBS). A total of 89,000 immigrants have come to the Netherlands in 2007, which is about 10,000 more than during the same period in 2006. The increase is due to Romania and Bulgaria’s entry to the European Union on 1 January 2007.

The number of Polish immigrants to the Netherlands is still high three years after Poland’s entry to the EU. The number was 7,000 during the first nine months of this year, which is an increase of 1,000 compared to last year.

[...]

Emigration has declined for the first time since 1999. During the first nine months of this year 92,000 persons emigrated from the Netherlands, which is 8,000 less than during the same period in 2006.

(De Telegraaf, Saturday 10 November, page 1)

Football.

If you want to find out what the topical issues are in France, check this page (http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/news/france.html) regularly.

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/7449/tbd1rw4.jpg

For Europe in general, you could go here (http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/news/europe.html) or here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/default.stm).

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/4816/tbd2sm0.jpg

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/5069/tbd3wr1.jpg

I hope that goes some way towards answering your question. :p

EU and global warming?!?

Shit! In the coffee room of my office we mainly talk about wages and other work related stuff like working hours, vacation time etc. Those in the know talk about Big Brother and Idols stuff. I listen in awe when they do.

EDIT: OH! And the price of cars. For some reason that excites people - mostly men.

The future of the E.U. is the biggest issue for most people in Europe, paticularly the UK. Also in the UK the Iraq debacle features highly too, but less so in other european nations. No one has an answer to either issue, though.

Generally I think most europeans take a broader view of affairs, and there are several issues that are close to peoples hearts, but none of which have the "button push" affect of things like taxes, abortion of statism in the US.

I have a perfectly reasonable solution to the EU; withdrawal. It really would be more sensible for the UK.

Other than that, I'd suggest immigration and the more underlying problems of reconciling our reduced power to our still colonial egos are the most pressing issues.

I think a different attitude towards Europe is needed, rather than a simple "Are we in or out". The United Kingdom could be a major power in Europe, if we play it right. I think we should ditch atlanticism and focus on Europe in the larger sense (including the entire Mediterranean, North Africa and Mid-East) and use our influence in these spheres and the Commonwealth to put ourselves at the centre of a new power base. Used wisely this could bring a lot of influence and respect to the UK, provided the influence isn't squandered on stupid short term ventures but rather is invested in long term goals.

The reunification of Cyprus is key to this, as is Turkish membership of the EU. What the EU must resist is the desire to become a federal nation in it's own right. It is an alliance of nations, not a nation in and of itself. This would be better for the United Kingdom, and most other nations in the EU.

Hmm... well in the UK the topics that often come out at election times are inevitably immigration (legal, illegal), the state of our youth (for gods sake, stop telling them they're stupid and the only reason they get record grades at A-Levels is because the exams are easier), how to sort out the NHS (please note, no party is saying we shouldn't have it, just that it needs sorting), what civil liberties the government is going to stamp on in the name of security, the EU (should we, shouldn't we), global warming (it's happening, how do we sort it)
...
and Princess Diana (if you read the Express)

The most important issues facing Europeans are in no particular order, Immigration, European Integration namely the Reform Treaty, the future of the European Social Model and Global Warming.

I think a different attitude towards Europe is needed, rather than a simple "Are we in or out". The United Kingdom could be a major power in Europe, if we play it right. I think we should ditch atlanticism and focus on Europe in the larger sense (including the entire Mediterranean, North Africa and Mid-East) and use our influence in these spheres and the Commonwealth to put ourselves at the centre of a new power base. Used wisely this could bring a lot of influence and respect to the UK, provided the influence isn't squandered on stupid short term ventures but rather is invested in long term goals.

The reunification of Cyprus is key to this, as is Turkish membership of the EU. What the EU must resist is the desire to become a federal nation in it's own right. It is an alliance of nations, not a nation in and of itself. This would be better for the United Kingdom, and most other nations in the EU.

Even though I don't think that a more pro-EU Libdem style, UK should come necessarily at the expense of atlanticism, (I espouse both as a Portuguese), I still think you're right on all counts. The question here is how to get more Britons agreeing with you, and moving away from the populist nationalist rants in the media.

Well, taking a look at all the hot-button political issues in the US like abortion, Alaskan Drilling, Stem Cell, Iraq, etc., I was wondering: What are important issues for Europeans? What are your guys' hot button issues and what ideological stance determines whether you support a candidate/party or not?

here in the UK (i can't speak for all of Europe) immigration seems to be the big deal. its not that people are talking about it much, its just an edgy subject the media - and some politicians - love to play with. i don't think the people care that much. or, at least, those who don't read the Daily Mail don't care that much.


also in the UK, yes, the EU itself is a question. which i believe to be retarded and can't understand why its an issue at all.


mostly our 'issues' tend to be political in nature rather than arguing for/against social freedoms (gay rights, abortion, etc) or religious nonsense

In Scotland, the question of a referendum on independance can flare up some passion amongst us... Hmm... National ID cards are also a popular topic amongst the university campus I'm attending.

Overall, I think the general trend in Europe is that we aren't as highly passionate or divided about social and religious issues as our friends across the Atlantic. As mentioned before, political issues are near the top of our list of discursive topics, just below the Tea and Crumpets/Scones question.

Hmm... well in the UK the topics that often come out at election times are inevitably immigration (legal, illegal), the state of our youth (for gods sake, stop telling them they're stupid and the only reason they get record grades at A-Levels is because the exams are easier), how to sort out the NHS (please note, no party is saying we shouldn't have it, just that it needs sorting), what civil liberties the government is going to stamp on in the name of security, the EU (should we, shouldn't we), global warming (it's happening, how do we sort it)
...
and Princess Diana (if you read the Express)

But it's true. I took A-levels this summer, and took A-level papers from twenty years or so ago as practice papers. The gulf between the two, in difficulty, and in the extent to which they require independant thought, is staggering. AS levels, whilst we're on the subject, are also ludicrously easy.

Where the NHS is concerned, that nobody is prepared to propose either privatisation, or, in the current political climate, even slight economies upon its budget, will lead only to an increasingly beaurocratic, expensive, soulless and inefficient monolith.

EU powers and responsibilities, Turkey and EU affiliation/membership, illegal/legal immigration, Russia, how to best combat climate change...

Those seem to be the major issues right now. A lot of the takes on the issues depend on geography, such as with Britain's staunch opposition to empowering the EU or Poland's phobia of Russia.

And the bigger problem, what do serve with tea... scones or crumpets?
Actually that is the hot button issue.

Scone. Is it pronouned so as it rhymes with 'gone', or with 'stone'?

In York, opinions vary, but I stand by my 'gone'.

But it's true. I took A-levels this summer, and took A-level papers from twenty years or so ago as practice papers. The gulf between the two, in difficulty, and in the extent to which they require independant thought, is staggering. AS levels, whilst we're on the subject, are also ludicrously easy.
It's a completely different system.
Where the NHS is concerned, that nobody is prepared to propose either privatisation, or, in the current political climate, even slight economies upon its budget, will lead only to an increasingly beaurocratic, expensive, soulless and inefficient monolith.
Quite.

"We'll erm... have a select committee and 83 subcommities looking into a possible white paper on plausible reforms. The report should be due for 2048, and you owe us £52,000,000 for the privelage"

I think EU still consists of quite different nations and cultures so there isn't EU-wide front for and against certain issue.

There are hot issues in each nation (now they have strikes in France, in our country it's worries about overheating of economy), but not too much eu-wide. Religious disputes are each countries own business (Poles like their religion some other maybe do not so much). Decisionmakers in Brussels are quite far from discussions of voters. In some (or maybe even most) countries voters don't even vote in guys in European Parliament/Commission... So they don't have to argue so actively for/against such issues. Thus, issues are more local.


Some issues that are worrying for large part of Europe is immigration and culture clash (Europe, Muslims, terrorism and free speech); climate change (this summer south of Europe burned and UK flooded); big bad neigbour (in the East and its impact on Europe); sometimes history (there is a lot of painful history in europe).

But even those issues are not that hot. They are widely argued and discussed. But not shouted...

Where the NHS is concerned, that nobody is prepared to propose either privatisation, or, in the current political climate, even slight economies upon its budget, will lead only to an increasingly beaurocratic, expensive, soulless and inefficient monolith.
Plus, millions are being spent on bollocks like the alternative crap, which no-one has proved to of any use to anyone, but it's still available on the NHS. Rather than drugs which are proved to of use.

Brilliant.

and Princess Diana (if you read the Express)
There isn't a day that goes by without it being a headline.

Hmm... well in the UK the topics that often come out at election times are inevitably immigration (legal, illegal), the state of our youth (for gods sake, stop telling them they're stupid and the only reason they get record grades at A-Levels is because the exams are easier), how to sort out the NHS (please note, no party is saying we shouldn't have it, just that it needs sorting), what civil liberties the government is going to stamp on in the name of security, the EU (should we, shouldn't we), global warming (it's happening, how do we sort it)
...
and Princess Diana (if you read the Express)

And paedophiles too, whom, as *"The Sun" and **"News Of The World" keep telling us, are on every street waiting to attack your children. (Emotive, scare mongering keeps people's minds off real issues.)

*Tabloid newspaper owned by Rupert Murdoch.
**Tabloid newspaper owned by Rupert Murdoch.

And paedophiles too, whom, as *"The Sun" and **"News Of The World" keep telling us, are on every street waiting to attack your children. (Emotive, scare mongering keeps people's minds off real issues.)

*Tabloid newspaper owned by Rupert Murdoch.
**Tabloid newspaper owned by Rupert Murdoch.They sell the Sun and News of the World in Berlin?

Currently we're happy because England missed the EC in football.

They sell the Sun and News of the World in Berlin?

No expat here would buy that junk. Germans have their own red-tops.

And then in England, rather than the UK as a whole, there's _

1/. If the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish can have their own Parliaments and Assemblies, with the right to handle various matters for themselves instead of leaving those to the whole UK's government, then why -- without being carved up into a bunch of separate 'regions' that have no historical identity -- can't the English have a Parliament of their own as well?
Why should Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish MPs be entitled to vote on how those matters should be handled in England, when England's MPs no longer have any say in how those matters are handled in Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland?
(This is sometimes called "The 'West Lothian' Question", you might find references to discussions on the subject under that heading...)

2/. The different levels of government funding supplied per capita to Soctland and England, which means that the Scots now get various benefits that the English don't...

No expat here would buy that junk. Germans have their own red-tops.
Yeah... we have BILD... Europe's largest :(

They sell the Sun and News of the World in Berlin?The Sun at least should be available quite easily. If nothing else helps -> central train station -> press.

Yeah... we have BILD... Europe's largest :(

Does Rupert have anything to do with any of the German tabloids?

Seriously, the media in the UK is one of the reasons I left the country. They have more power and influence than any elected body or leader. I guess you could say that the UK has turned into a media-ocracy (does such a word exist?).

Does Rupert have anything to do with any of the German tabloids?

Seriously, the media in the UK is one of the reasons I left the country. They have more power and influence than any elected body or leader. I guess you could say that the UK has turned into a media-ocracy (does such a word exist?).Mediacracy, and yes :P

One problem, though.

This is different from everywhere else, how? <.<

Mediacracy, and yes :P

One problem, though.

This is different from everywhere else, how? <.<

Go to the UK and find out.

A mediocracy ? Old news.

Quality. Thanks for that.

Does Rupert have anything to do with any of the German tabloids?

Seriously, the media in the UK is one of the reasons I left the country. They have more power and influence than any elected body or leader. I guess you could say that the UK has turned into a media-ocracy (does such a word exist?).
A mediocracy ? Old news.

Does Rupert have anything to do with any of the German tabloids?

Seriously, the media in the UK is one of the reasons I left the country. They have more power and influence than any elected body or leader. I guess you could say that the UK has turned into a media-ocracy (does such a word exist?).Nah, but Bild is just as bad if not worse. There's a nifty blog (http://www.bildblog.de) run by four journalists that exposes some of the blatant untruths, falsehoods, or practices of the Bild (assuming you can read German).

What are important issues for Europeans? What are your guys' hot button issues and what ideological stance determines whether you support a candidate/party or not?
The EU wide topics are pretty much the EU itself, and (muslim) extremists that are residents of the country itself. Then, many of the coutnries have or are planning reforms in the healthcare and social security, one way or another, (inspired by changing demography), resulting in the massive strikes in France and Germany.
In Holland at least there is the topic of what to do with the troops in Afghanistan.
Then in Belgium the existance of the country itself is at stake.

The determining factors on which party to vote are generally income, religion, view on environment, and intelligence.

I suspect that's different again in France, where the left is a lot stronger in shaping the debate and can reduce something as mundane as a pension reform for train conductors into something approaching class warfare. Complete with setting fire to trains.

Ah, I suppose I should have expected that from you. Ignore the peaceful protests, the whole mainstream movement, and eagerly latch on to the few fringe loonies, then portray them in one sweepingly absurb brushstroke as "the Left".

No points for you there. That was just too easy. And just too silly. Especially considering that the saboteurs were reacting against some of the unions asking them to suspend the strike.

No expat here would buy that junk. Germans have their own red-tops.

That's the second time in a few days I've heard them called "red-tops". I must confess I'd never heard it before. Have "tabloid" and "gutter press" fallen out of general usage overnight?

That's the second time in a few days I've heard them called "red-tops". I must confess I'd never heard it before. Have "tabloid" and "gutter press" fallen out of general usage overnight?
Everyone calls them tabloids still :)

Then in Belgium the existance of the country itself is at stake.



Yup, though the impression I get from Belgian friends is that it's mostly Flanders wanting seperation (or at least the more right-wing parties like the Vlaamse Belang who have a lot of support), whilst Wallonia is desperatly trying to keep everything together. Harking back to the fact that up until relatively recently it has been Wallonia that had the industry, economic and political power, and now has little of the first two yet still a decent amount of the third.

Which of course raises the wonderful question, if the country does split, what happens to Brussels? (For those who don't know the issues in the country, Brussels is predominently french-speaking but geographically located in the dutch-speaking region)

edit: for those not au fait with the problem, this article gives a good overview of the current issue: http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10110979

Go to the UK and find out.

I'm not sure what he'd find? People listen to whoever it is that will tell them what they want to hear. Same as everywhere else.

edit2: what decides are candidates is a battle between rich conservatives (to my south) and working class new labour-for-lack-of-an-option (to my north)

That's not necessarily true, I think your more likely to find general apathy in the North West, with a few hardcore Labs in the inner city and old Conservatives who can't make it down the road to vote in the suburbs.

Issues? I'd say there's a breakdown in the British Government on the horizon, what with all of Gordon's sweeping "reforms" AND being an unelected PM.

Throw the 30 million or so personal informations being 'lost' by the Home Office, immigration and practically lawless cities, and things aren't looking so rosy round here.

Nah, but Bild is just as bad if not worse. There's a nifty blog (http://www.bildblog.de) run by four journalists that exposes some of the blatant untruths, falsehoods, or practices of the Bild (assuming you can read German).
:D

What a fantastically tacky paper!

Issues? I'd say there's a breakdown in the British Government on the horizon, what with all of Gordon's sweeping "reforms" AND being an unelected PM.
I don't see how Brown's 'reforms' will break down government, when Blair's certainly haven't. As for being 'unelected', it may be contentious, but, it's perfectly legitimate under parliamentary law.

Throw the 30 million or so personal informations being 'lost' by the Home Office, immigration and practically lawless cities, and things aren't looking so rosy round here.
"Practically lawless cities"? What the heck does that mean?

Which UK are you living in?

Throw the 30 million or so personal informations being 'lost' by the Home Office
It hasn't been lost by the Home Office, it's been lost by HMCR and it's nothing really to worry about. The scaremonger press strikes again!
immigration
Oh noes, immigration. Not like it's a sign that your country's doing well for itself or anything...
and practically lawless cities
... Yes.

As a city dweller myself, I can personally say that I feel worried without a Glock in my pocket, the police on quick dial, bullet-proof car windows and a kevlar-lined waistcoat on (that being the gentleman's choice, of course).

Issues? I'd say there's a breakdown in the British Government on the horizon, what with all of Gordon's sweeping "reforms"
A bad week does not equal a breakdown. They've happened before, and they'll happen again.

AND being an unelected PM.
Elected. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkcaldy_and_Cowdenbeath_%28UK_Parliament_constituency%29)

Throw the 30 million or so personal informations being 'lost' by the Home Office,
I can't tell you how much it pains me to apologise for the government, but I don't see any reason why the Tories wouldn't want to put cuts in the Civil Service too.

immigration
Ah, I forgot we haven't put an electric fence in the Channel yet.

and practically lawless cities, and things aren't looking so rosy round here.
I've lived in a city for three months now. And I haven't been mugged, killed or raped! Is that a record for a lawless city?

It's a completely different system.



Well quite. A system devoid of creativity or accomodation of the academic. There is a consensus amongst the better schools and teachers that the New Labour education reforms have been a failure; they reward box-ticking convention adhering mediocrity rather than genuine brilliance and intellectual thought. Do I give a flying fuck that average Geoff, who'll later become average Geoff in a grey suit and a grey car in a grey house, might not be able to pass his malleable, spineless, soulless essays as success? Fuck no.

Equally, an examination is an examination. The system might be different, however, it is undeniable that examinations 20 years ago rewarded intelligent, individual thought rather more than today.

Well quite. A system devoid of creativity or accomodation of the academic. There is a consensus amongst the better schools and teachers that the New Labour education reforms have been a failure; they reward box-ticking convention adhering mediocrity rather than genuine brilliance and intellectual thought.
Aye, because 3 day weeks under Thatcher were the height of educational acheivement in the UK, right?
Do I give a flying fuck that average Geoff, who'll later become average Geoff in a grey suit and a grey car in a grey house, might not be able to pass his malleable, spineless, soulless essays as success? Fuck no.
*shrugs*

That's your opinion. I can understand why you're pissed off (doing the whole jumping through the sodding hoops thing in Hist. myself at the moment), but a good student will get an A, and they'll get into a decent uni.

People who can't be arsed with it and fail their exams, as happened to some of my less mature friends, failed because they didn't recognise that this was the way that things were to be done.

Yeah, fine, it's vaguely unfair to basically mark things on "did they said 'I believe' more than 4 times", and doesn't really prepare people for uni, but such are things.
Equally, an examination is an examination. The system might be different, however, it is undeniable that examinations 20 years ago rewarded intelligent, individual thought rather more than today.
Not really, the examinations of 20 years ago were more about how vitriolic you were in your argument, rather than how much factual information you can get into, say, a history essay.

I'd much rather have people learning skills like accuracy than being rewarded for pretentiously mouthing off about the woeful days of War Communism, to be honest.

Issues? I'd say there's a breakdown in the British Government on the horizon, what with all of Gordon's sweeping "reforms" AND being an unelected PM.

Throw the 30 million or so personal informations being 'lost' by the Home Office, immigration and practically lawless cities, and things aren't looking so rosy round here.

Heh, it has been an exceedingly bad week for Brown hasn't it? Wouldn't want to be him right now.

In regards to the un-elected PM comment, he's neither the first or the last PM to appear mid term and not call an election immediately. Macmillan, Douglas-Home, Callaghan and Major are all as guilty.

PM's may be the face of government but you vote for parties, not prime ministers, in general elections.

Well, taking a look at all the hot-button political issues in the US like abortion, Alaskan Drilling, Stem Cell, Iraq, etc., I was wondering: What are important issues for Europeans? What are your guys' hot button issues and what ideological stance determines whether you support a candidate/party or not?
I HATE that these are "hot button issues"....like there is nothing more important going on than to talk about gay marriage, abortion and stem cell research. We're fighting multiple wars, being invaded in our border states and are suffering from a weak dollar...but to quote Dave Chappelle:

"Stop worrying about the war, or what's going on with the economy. I got THAT SHIT on lock, nigga. GAY PEOPLE ARE GETTING MARRIED FOLKS!"

Reporter: "But sir, how do you feel about the increased tensions even after Sadam's...."

Chappelle: "Did you hera me? It's gross! Two girls, touching on each other...blowing on those nipples until they get so erect, and firm! It's disgusting!"

Reporter: "But sir......"

Chappelle: "Stop worrying about it. I got that shit under control. Start focussing on SPACE, nigga. The United States of Space. And we ain't stopping there, nigga. Write this shit down. M-A-R-S. Mars, bitches.

-------------------------
In Europe, immigration, European Union, Welfare, Multiculturalism...ect

It's really hard to say becaue "Europe" is not just one place and every country in Europe has it's own issues, needs and highly debated problems depending on the geo-political situation there...., so yeah.

Ah, I suppose I should have expected that from you. Ignore the peaceful protests, the whole mainstream movement, and eagerly latch on to the few fringe loonies, then portray them in one sweepingly absurb brushstroke as "the Left".
I think you're misrepresenting what I said. If the left wasn't able to portray a pension reform (a long overdue and actually fair one, at that) as some sort of attack by the neoliberals (tm), there wouldn't be fringe loonies, nor would there be strikes in "solidarity" or anything of the sort. I didn't equate the two, I said that one leads to the other.

I was talking about how issues in the US become hot-button issues for no reason other than the way they are portrayed in public discourse. You can't tell me that the same isn't true in French politics.

I think you're misrepresenting what I said. If the left wasn't able to portray a pension reform (a long overdue and actually fair one, at that) as some sort of attack by the neoliberals (tm), there wouldn't be fringe loonies, nor would there be strikes in "solidarity" or anything of the sort. I didn't equate the two, I said that one leads to the other.

I was talking about how issues in the US become hot-button issues for no reason other than the way they are portrayed in public discourse. You can't tell me that the same isn't true in French politics.

In Socialist Democratic France, everything is a hotbutton issue. And btw the strike is not a question of pension reform. Its just a strike ! It happens all the time, with or without reason. Its like winter in Canada, it comes every year and every year you whine about it but in the end there's nothing you can do but wait for it to stop. Ah qu'il est beau mon pays.

:upyours: :sniper:

:upyours: :sniper:
That's exactly the European point of view.

"Piss off, gun-lover."

Apart from in Switzerland, where their gun culture is somewhat different, due to somewhat obvious reasons, it must be said.

:upyours: :sniper:
Care to share your anger in textual form?

PM's may be the face of government but you vote for parties, not prime ministers, in general elections.

I would agree with you entirely, technically we're not voting for Priministers or even parties, but our Members. BUT, Gordon hasn't exactly shown a great deal of respect to the rest of the house, just like Thatcher and Blair, and now people are losing faith in the Parliamentary system. When we have this, we start to have instability.

I don't see how Brown's 'reforms' will break down government, when Blair's certainly haven't. As for being 'unelected', it may be contentious, but, it's perfectly legitimate under parliamentary law.

Legitimate, yes. Sharp and radical, also yes. Parliament doesn't like too much change in one go, and with Gordon's spiteful attitude to tradition and convention (not to mention democracy - EU referendum, anyone?), the cracks of division are starting to appear, most especially in the Lords.

Practically lawless cities"? What the heck does that mean?

Which UK are you living in?

The North.

BUT, Gordon hasn't exactly shown a great deal of respect to the rest of the house, just like Thatcher and Blair, and now people are losing faith in the Parliamentary system. When we have this, we start to have instability.
I'd wager most folks lost faith in the parliamentary system years ago.

Legitimate, yes. Sharp and radical, also yes. Parliament doesn't like too much change in one go, and with Gordon's spiteful attitude to tradition and convention (not to mention democracy - EU referendum, anyone?), the cracks of division are starting to appear, most especially in the Lords.
Parliament did fuck all when Blair was in power, why would their attitude towards Brown be any different?

He's acted no more anti-democratically or non-traditionally than Blair; arguably less so. Blair changed a huge amount of convention and traditional protocal in the two Houses, and neither one cared too much.

I think your seeing non-existant rebellion where you'd like it to exist.

The North.
And exactly which cities in the north are 'lawless'?

I'd wager most folks lost faith in the parliamentary system years ago.

Indeed so. But voter apathy is at an all time high. And I can literally count on my fingers the amount of bills which were actually defeated in the commons since 1980.



Parliament did fuck all when Blair was in power, why would their attitude towards Brown be any different?



Yes yes, Blair spent less time than any other PM in the commons, but Gordon's making announcements to the press instead of parliament and making a mockery of question time.



He's acted no more anti-democratically or non-traditionally than Blair; arguably less so. Blair changed a huge amount of convention and traditional protocal in the two Houses, and neither one cared too much.



Not anti-democratically, but undemocratically. It's not fair to see an antiquated system which relies so heavily on convention to be abused like this. Jack Straw as Lord Chancellor? Ministry of Justice? A 'supreme court'? Snubbing the Queen?



I think your seeing non-existant rebellion where you'd like it to exist.



I didn't say rebellion. I said instability on the horizon : i.e. probably in the near future. And Commentators/Journalists are making noises about how overpowerful the Executive is.


And exactly which cities in the north are 'lawless'?

Liverpool, Manchester, Blackpool, Blackburn. Not very nice places to live, especially when you use public transport a lot. Can't even go to the shops down the road - even in the suburbs theres hoodies and gangstas roaming the streets.

I would agree with you entirely, technically we're not voting for Priministers or even parties, but our Members. BUT, Gordon hasn't exactly shown a great deal of respect to the rest of the house, just like Thatcher and Blair, and now people are losing faith in the Parliamentary system. When we have this, we start to have instability.
People are just apathetic because we've had 10 years of steady, slightly tedious growth, and that'd be true under any party.
The North.
I live in the north and it's better than it used to be, I'll tell you now.

Liverpool, Manchester, Blackpool, Blackburn. Not very nice places to live, especially when you use public transport a lot. Can't even go to the shops down the road - even in the suburbs theres hoodies and gangstas roaming the streets.
Aye, it's exactly like that.

Bloody hoodies! Bloody gangstas! HUZZAH FOR NATIONAL SERVICE!

I HATE that these are "hot button issues"....like there is nothing more important going on than to talk about gay marriage, abortion and stem cell research. We're fighting multiple wars, being invaded in our border states and are suffering from a weak dollar...

I know. Most people I know don't give a shit about real issues facing us, only the trivial social stuff. It's very depressing... but that's just for America

Indeed so. But voter apathy is at an all time high. And I can literally count on my fingers the amount of bills which were actually defeated in the commons since 1980.
Yes, but how is this Brown’s fault any more than other PM’s/Cabinets?

Yes yes, Blair spent less time than any other PM in the commons, but Gordon’s making announcements to the press instead of parliament and making a mockery of question time.
Blair did a lot more than simply not turn up in the Commons much. Among other things, he and his administration changed the timing of PMQ’s, dramatically increased the public relations and general non-ministerial staff of government, cut the length and frequency of Cabinet meetings, started vetted one-on-one meetings with minsters and continued Thatcher’s consolidation of control the PM has over Cabinet.

Now, I’m not saying Brown is a saint or a godsend for the Commons, but I hardly see how he is upsetting Westminster more than previous PM’s.

Not anti-democratically, but undemocratically. It’s not fair to see an antiquated system which relies so heavily on convention to be abused like this. Jack Straw as Lord Chancellor? Ministry of Justice? A ‘supreme court’? Snubbing the Queen?
The position of Lord Chancellor should be abolished anyway; there should never be a post that combines the executive, legislative and judicial branches of government, and it has been abused terribly by Lord Falconer in recent years.

I’m not too happy about a Ministry of Justice or Supreme Court either (even if they are rather far-off, speculative ideas) but as we’ve been discussing in this thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=543542&page=6) for the past few days, Gordon Brown pre-empting the Queen’s Speech is hardly a ‘snubbing’. She reads what she’s told to.

I didn’t say rebellion. I said instability on the horizon : i.e. probably in the near future. And Commentators/Journalists are making noises about how overpowerful the Executive is.
What do you mean by ‘instability’?

Commons revolt? Revolution? Lembit Öpik going in a huff?

Liverpool, Manchester, Blackpool, Blackburn. Not very nice places to live, especially when you use public transport a lot. Can’t even go to the shops down the road–even in the suburbs theres hoodies and gangstas roaming the streets.
‘Hoodies’ and ‘gangstas’? :p

I think the word you’re searching for is ‘teenagers’. You know, the ones with the long hair and the rocking and the rolling.

Whatever imaginary demons infest Liverpool, Manchester, Blackpool, or Blackburn, it is without doubt massive hyperbole to say that any of these cities is ‘lawless’.

Aye, it's exactly like that.

Bloody hoodies! Bloody gangstas! HUZZAH FOR NATIONAL SERVICE!

Bugger me, I actually agree with you. Much as I loathe the majority of my generation, and happen to think corporal punishment in schools, capital punishment and increased police powers to arbitrarily disperse large groups of youths, would all be excellent measures, I don't subscribe to the notion that the streets are particularly lawless now. Rather, I think certain areas of urban deprivation have always been shitholes; the difference is the delinquency is now evident in more affluent, middle class neighbourhoods.

Liverpool, Manchester, Blackpool, Blackburn. Not very nice places to live, especially when you use public transport a lot. Can't even go to the shops down the road - even in the suburbs theres hoodies and gangstas roaming the streets.

Crime in the Northwest is certainly high for England, third only to London and Yorkshire. And yet, crime continues to fall as it does in the rest of the country. Perceived danger continues to rise, but that's hardly the fault of the government - they aren't here to stop idiots from reading tabloid newspapers and believing that everyone under 18 is armed with a knife and a camera phone waiting to stab you to make a video for Youtube.

Crime in the Northwest is certainly high for England, third only to London and Yorkshire. And yet, crime continues to fall as it does in the rest of the country. Perceived danger continues to rise, but that's hardly the fault of the government - they aren't here to stop idiots from reading tabloid newspapers and believing that everyone under 18 is armed with a knife and a camera phone waiting to stab you to make a video for Youtube.
As someone who actually lives in Yorkshire - it's not that bad here, to be honest.

The crime rate in Yorkshire and Humberside is the second highest in England and Wales. That doesn't mean that crime is out of control or ruining everyones lives there, just that its higher than in most places.

They have an illegal immigration problem that may surpass the US problem in scale. This is interesting. Immigration is also a hot button issue in Australia. So are Canada and New Zealand about the only Western Nations where immigration is not a hot-button issue?

This is interesting. Immigration is also a hot button issue in Australia. So are Canada and New Zealand about the only Western Nations where immigration is not a hot-button issue?
Canada has few venues for approach, which is probably one of the reasons why it's not much of an issue.

Well for the UK it's:

1. Why the fuc* did ANY of our teams fail to qualify for Euro 2008.
2. GLASGOW GOT THE COMMONWEALTH GAMES!!!
3. The Scottish want independence ( I'm scottish and I most certainty don't )

Canada has few venues for approach, which is probably one of the reasons why it's not much of an issue.

Same goes for NZ I suppose.

The only issue with immigration in Canada seems to be why we don't recognize their credentials more readily so their skills can be put to better use.