NationStates Jolt Archive

where would you rather live, the U.S.S.R circa mid to late 80s or the US of today? there will be a poll, because I said so.

U.S.A. It has its faults - too many to list - but it beats the U.S.S.R. any day.

I like having rights. USA please.

Canada

What was it actually like living in the USSR? Most places, wikipedia in particular, aren't very specific on the average person's way of day to day life.

What was it actually like living in the USSR? Most places, wikipedia in particular, aren't very specific on the average person's way of day to day life.
In the mid-late 1980s, it was basically like living anywhere else, but with extra expensive food, crumbling housing and low wages. A bit meh, to say the least.

The US today, as much as I dislike it, is better than the USSR in the 1980s.

The USSR in the 80s? Yeh, I'd go with that. At least then you'll know the nightmare is almost over.

where would you rather live, the U.S.S.R circa mid to late 80s or the US of today?

Yes.

its like choosing between a hot acid bath and a cold cancerous trip to inside Chernobyl's reactor

also why the 80's :confused:

With Glasnost and Perestroika, it was a little less restrictive than in previous decades.

its like choosing between a hot acid bath and a cold cancerous trip to inside Chernobyl's reactor

also why the 80's :confused:

The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the United States of America are pretty much exactly the same. Here's a list of a few things with a US thing first and a USSR thing second.

Represenative Democracy and Democratic Centralism
Capitalism and State Capitalism
Anti-Communism and Anti-Capitalism
Two-Party State and One-Party State
The Third World and The Warsaw Pact

Both of them had systems that made it so the people are indirectly represented in Government which made it so a Government official didnt have to really help the people, both economic systems put the means of production in the hands of the elite, both states tried to insert propaganda into the heads of their citizens about their opponents, both have laws that preserve the large party(s) of the state so they will never be opposed on a large scale and both had foreign policies to impose their rule over satellite states.

The USSR was better from 1917 to like 1919-20, but after the Workers' Councils fell and became a dictatorship of the party, it went down hill.

I can't get me some bapes in the U.S.S.R. Think of the plastic shoes.

Erm, is this meant to be funny or something. Because why any same person would pick USSR? Economic stagnation, total deficit(people had to stand in long queues for buying goods), opressive government(yes, it started getting better with Perestroika, but it was still quite bad).

Olmedreca;13234144']Erm, is this meant to be funny or something. Because why any same person would pick USSR? Economic stagnation, total deficit(people had to stand in long queues for buying goods), opressive government(yes, it started getting better with Perestroika, but it was still quite bad).

Yeah I agree, this is more of a retorical question if you ask me...

Olmedreca"]Erm, is this meant to be funny or something. Because why any same person would pick USSR? Economic stagnation, total deficit(people had to stand in long queues for buying goods), opressive government(yes, it started getting better with Perestroika, but it was still quite bad).

Ssssh, it is meant to be bait: lure guys like AP, and get some healthy ROTFLing.

USSR. There's nothing I like more than having to queue for hours to spend all my money on a loaf of bread.

Ssssh, it is meant to be bait: lure guys like AP, and get some healthy ROTFLing.

I was thinking the same thing.

USSR. There's nothing I like more than having to queue for hours to spend all my money on a loaf of bread.

:eek: its like Waitrose

I would have chosen USSR.

Why?

Because if one actually studies history, it should be noted that educated foreigners (read engineers, doctors, etc...) actually got paid a fair wage in the Soviet Union. This was probably to get people to move to the USSR, but still...

...so, on top of being paid a good wage, I'd be able to live in a society that was generally in line with my ideals, while I could fight against a totalitarian regime at the same time.

I would have chosen USSR.

Why?

Because if one actually studies history, it should be noted that educated foreigners (read engineers, doctors, etc...) actually got paid a fair wage in the Soviet Union. This was probably to get people to move to the USSR, but still...

...so, on top of being paid a good wage, I'd be able to live in a society that was generally in line with my ideals, while I could fight against a totalitarian regime at the same time.

So you would live there to make decent money and to fight against the government which is paying your wages?

So you would live there to make decent money and to fight against the government which is paying your wages?

Yes.

Yes.

Works for me :p

Works for me :p

For me too ;)

Mind you, I'd try to stick to non-violent protests in favour of human rights. Course, if push comes to shove...

Canada

I second that! :)

The 80's in the USSR was crap because the revisionist Khrushchevite capitalists had tried to turn it into one giant corporation rather than a mass worker state as Marxism-Leninism envisaged. The gradual liberalization under Khrushchev, the corruption bureaucracy of Brezhnev, all contributed to a decaying edifice. The 50's were the best time, before Stalin died. These days Russia, without communism, has fallen into ultranationalism, racism, crime, unemployment, disease and hopelessness. We're once the people had a real sense of direction in life, security and purpose, now they have too many choices, too much stress, cynicism prevails over hope. I am glad Cuba has not been taken over by the 'capitalist road' revisionists.

Life was good under Stalin?

The 80's in the USSR was crap because the revisionist Khrushchevite capitalists had tried to turn it into one giant corporation rather than a mass worker state as Marxism-Leninism envisaged. The gradual liberalization under Khrushchev, the corruption bureaucracy of Brezhnev, all contributed to a decaying edifice. The 50's were the best time, before Stalin died. These days Russia, without communism, has fallen into ultranationalism, racism, crime, unemployment, disease and hopelessness. We're once the people had a real sense of direction in life, security and purpose, now they have too many choices, too much stress, cynicism prevails over hope. I am glad Cuba has not been taken over by the 'capitalist road' revisionists.

Life was good under Stalin?

Even as a hardcore socialist lefty, even I cringe at life in the USSR, especially under Stalin. It sounded like hell if you couldn't bend over backwards and take it up the ass.

Glorious Soyuz!

Life was good under Stalin?

You should read this:
http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/book.html

You should read this:
http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/book.html

OK

You should read this:
http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/book.html
...

It was bullshit when you told me to read it last time, and it remains so.

Oh yeah... Trotsky was a maaaaaassive pawn of capitalism... oh yes...

...

It was bullshit when you told me to read it last time, and it remains so.

Oh yeah... Trotsky was a maaaaaassive pawn of capitalism... oh yes...

If it states that then it's obviously a load of pro-Stalin BS propaganda

If it states that then it's obviously a load of pro-Stalin BS propaganda
It also reckons that Stalin was some kind of military genius, and that the Great Purges and killing of the Kulaks was OK, because only counter-revolutionaries suffered, eh?

"On August 6, 1945, having learned that Hiroshima was destroyed by the bomb, Truman declared to the people around him that it was the `greatest achievement of organized science in history'. Truman dared to write that in his memoirs! The decision of U.S. imperialism to indiscrimately exterminate hundreds of millions of Japanese civilians shows its inhuman and barbaric nature; it had taken up the torch from the fascist powers."

This also strikes me as particularly poor. Yeah, the atomic bombs were bad, but... hundreds of millions of Japanese civilians?

You sure?

I’m choosing to live in the USSR. There are two reasons for this:
1. My main language is Russian. I don’t know English well enough to feel myself comfortable in the USA.
2. In the second half of the 80s there was real chance that the USSR will transform into the civilized form of socialism. This is almost impossible in the USA.

U.S.A I was born here and I like my freedoms.

I'd hate to live in either. Ye gods, talk about Charybdis or Scylla... If I absolutely had to choose, I'd pick the US, and then promptly emigrate to a more advanced country such as Canada, or Australia or New Zealand or one of the EU countries.

On the other hand, this


In the second half of the 80s there was real chance that the USSR will transform into the civilized form of socialism. This is almost impossible in the USA.

is an interesting point...

I would have chosen USSR.

Why?

Because if one actually studies history, it should be noted that educated foreigners (read engineers, doctors, etc...) actually got paid a fair wage in the Soviet Union. This was probably to get people to move to the USSR, but still...

...so, on top of being paid a good wage, I'd be able to live in a society that was generally in line with my ideals, while I could fight against a totalitarian regime at the same time.At the same time, they tended to scare them off with the horrors of the USSR. For the sake of high voltage electromagnetism studies, they would allow researchers to take out power to entire cities in a vain attempt to show up the West. The US did even more powerful experiments but instead build infrastructure. It would be incredibly difficult to know that entire cities of people are stuck living in the dark because of you.


As for the OP, Vet said something about China and North Korea being unable to capture the sheer mediocrity of the average day of the average Russian.

At the same time, they tended to scare them off with the horrors of the USSR. For the sake of high voltage electromagnetism studies, they would allow researchers to take out power to entire cities in a vain attempt to show up the West. The US did even more powerful experiments but instead build infrastructure. It would be incredibly difficult to know that entire cities of people are stuck living in the dark because of you.

Oh, I realized that. Hence why I would only do it if I could perform some sort of passive resistance.

I would live in the United States. Why? Because I think Communism is made of more fail than Capitalism and that's saying something!

1. My main language is Russian. I don’t know English well enough to feel myself comfortable in the USA.

and you think Americans use the language? :p

2. In the second half of the 80s there was real chance that the USSR will transform into the civilized form of socialism. This is almost impossible in the USA.

I suppose I'm arguing with experience but surely there wasn't a chance in hell of that happening when all the power is in the hands of so few?

Oh, I realized that. Hence why I would only do it if I could perform some sort of passive resistance.If you value your life, it would be unnoticed resistance. Even with capitalism, that is still valid advice for living in Russia.

I would live in the United States. Why? Because I think Communism is made of more fail than Capitalism and that's saying something!

How exactly was the USSR communist? :confused:

If you value your life, it would be unnoticed resistance. Even with capitalism, that is still valid advice for living in Russia.

Of course. That's why you make sure to be valuable and indispensable. As well as being smart enough to avoid getting caught, naturally.

The Soviet Union was so decrepit by the 1980's that pretty much everything it did was somehow dysfunctional in its own special way.

I don't fancy waiting in line for four hours for bread.

I suppose I'm arguing with experience but surely there wasn't a chance in hell of that happening when all the power is in the hands of so few?

Gorbachev started transformation of the USSR in to the democratic country. Sadly, the coup attempt by the conservatives in the August 1991 leaved him without support. But I think that if he only tried slightly more to befriend sane part of the conservatives, it was possible to prevent this attempt without dismissing reforms.

Of course, it is just possibility, but I think that it is worth to be tried. Sadly, this is not possible. :(

The U.S.S.R. failed because of its leadership. It would've been great otherwise.

Based on this, I'd like to live in 80s U.S.S.R. and either become an awesome spy for the reds or kick out the dismal leadership and redo it better.

80's soviet union = too much liberalization, too fast

If you want a lake drained, dont break the dam or you will have a flash flood, let it flow slowly and you get a better outcome

YAY LIBERALIZATION!

80's soviet union = too much liberalization, too fast

If you want a lake drained, dont break the dam or you will have a flash flood, let it flow slowly and you get a better outcome

I think the Soviet Union was just too broken by the 1980's to really have any chance of surviving; had the reform process started in the 1970's, or continued apace from the Khrushchev era rather than be dismantled by Brezhnev (not to mention he was also partially responsible for economic stagnation from the mid 1970's onwards), things might have turned out differently.

80's soviet union = too much liberalization, too fast

If you want a lake drained, dont break the dam or you will have a flash flood, let it flow slowly and you get a better outcome

YAY LIBERALIZATION!
In the times of Gorbachev slow transformation was always impossible, because big part of the bureaucracy was already inclined to destroy USSR and socialism, so they can become very, very rich. Democracy was the only real way to limit their power enough to prevent this.
I think the Soviet Union was just too broken by the 1980's to really have any chance of surviving; had the reform process started in the 1970's, or continued apace from the Khrushchev era rather than be dismantled by Brezhnev (not to mention he was also partially responsible for economic stagnation from the mid 1970's onwards), things might have turned out differently.
I agree with you about the bad role of Brezhnev, but I think that the turning event was the military suppression of the Prague Spring. Peaceful solution to it was crucial not just for the better image in the eyes of foreigners, but also for the better political climate inside the USSR.

But I think that even in the times of Gorbachev it was possible to successfully reform USSR in to something viable, also just barely. Gorbachev almost did this, but the August Coup ended everything.

I will live in Montana and raise rabbits. And I will have a pickup truck...or even a recreational vehicle. And I will drive from state to state. Do they let you do that in America, no papers?

Not strictly speaking

Not strictly speaking

He was quoting from The Hunt for Red October. Not a bad film, although I prefer K-19.

In the mid-late 1980s, it was basically like living anywhere else, but with extra expensive food, crumbling housing and low wages. A bit meh, to say the least.

The US today, as much as I dislike it, is better than the USSR in the 1980s.

Oh really. I remember them quite differently. I think that expensive food was never an issue: everyone had a money but shops were empty. Wages were not that low: most people had comparatively much money. There just were not that much choices to spend it. And crumbling housing... it was low quality, but it still stands today :)

Olmedreca;13234144']Erm, is this meant to be funny or something. Because why any same person would pick USSR? Economic stagnation, total deficit(people had to stand in long queues for buying goods), opressive government(yes, it started getting better with Perestroika, but it was still quite bad).

You are completely right about all these three things, but that's not all life. Take a look from other people perspective: there are a lot of reasons why to choose ussr over usa: stability and predictability, social guarantees, tight family ties, friendliness etc.

I personally do not like Communism over Capitalism due to economic aspects, but I chose USSR over USA, because that is my home.

I will live in Montana and raise rabbits. And I will have a pickup truck...or even a recreational vehicle. And I will drive from state to state. Do they let you do that in America, no papers?
Excellent film.:)

where would you rather live, the U.S.S.R circa mid to late 80s or the US of today? there will be a poll, because I said so.

could i just kill myself instead?

would you want to have lived in the wymar republic, knowing what you do now about what was going to replace it? if you'd been born poor and jewish?

given any REAL choice i'd be as far as i could get from either of them!

i was born in the u.s. and don't have that choice.

but isn't it about time people started getting their heads out of the retarded nonsense that anything that doesn't toady up to the u.s. just has to be russian soviet pseudo-marxism?

=^^=
.../\...

Excellent film.:)
Also an excellent book.

I’m choosing to live in the USSR. There are two reasons for this:
1. My main language is Russian. I don’t know English well enough to feel myself comfortable in the USA.
2. In the second half of the 80s there was real chance that the USSR will transform into the civilized form of socialism. This is almost impossible in the USA.

Don't agree with that, but reasonably stated nonetheless

and you think Americans use the language? :p

Yes, just very, very poorly :D

I will live in Montana and raise rabbits. And I will have a pickup truck...or even a recreational vehicle. And I will drive from state to state. Do they let you do that in America, no papers?

Nice quote, but the book was much, much better

Talk about insulting

Talk about insulting

:confused:

80's soviet union = too much liberalization, too fast

If you want a lake drained, dont break the dam or you will have a flash flood, let it flow slowly and you get a better outcome

YAY LIBERALIZATION!

you need a more original name.

you need a more original name.

I thought that was you...

Us

Thirty Years in a Gulag is preferable to a life under capitalism. At least in the Gulag you actually did something to warrant being in a prison.

Like being captured by the Wehrmacht during World War II. Or even worse, being married to someone captured by the Wehrmacht during WWII!

Bah, crap choice. USA, only because of it being more modern.

Can I choose Khruschev-era USSR?

:eek: its like Waitrose

LOL

Seriously, USSR in 80s was so-so, but America today gives me what I want: gun ownership, free enterprise, and freedom of speech (etc etc).

Oh really. I remember them quite differently. I think that expensive food was never an issue: everyone had a money but shops were empty.
The longest queues were forming for vodka thanks to sukhoi zakon*, and since the decent cigarettes started to come from India life was bearable :)
Of course my view is flawed, I lived in Moscow, which always was the best supplied city in the empire. In other places it might have been and probably was different.
But I'd chosen the US anyway.

* Literally "dry law" instituted by Gorbachev in an attempt to decrease alcoholism; what he achieved was a great rise in numbers of illicit distilleries, blindness cases and alcohol related deaths.

The longest queues were forming for vodka thanks to sukhoi zakon, and since the decent cigarettes started to come from India life was bearable :)
Of course my view is flawed, I lived in Moscow, which always was the best supplied city in the empire. In other places it might have been and probably was different.
But I'd chosen the US anyway.



I lived and still am living in Riga (near Baltic sea). And i didn't mean that there were shortages that led for hunger, but just not enough. And not nearly enough choice. At least I did not ever see that lack of money would be problem for people as it is now.

Probably in farther and colder parts of USSR life was worse. On other hand probably it still is. And in economic sense USA is in actually better position.

In Soviet Russia, Vote Chooses You!

So USSR

I lived and still am living in Riga (near Baltic sea).

I live in Poland. I was studying for three years in Moscow.

I did not ever see that lack of money would be problem for people as it is now.
That's generally also my impression. However even in Moscow there were some people who lived in poverty - the pensioners, especially those from regions conquered during the war. My father worked in the Polish embassy and there regularly came these old (70+) ladies from western parts of Ukraine and Belarus, who asked for support producing their pensioner cheques of 30 roubles per month, and other elderly persons were doing not much better than that. At the time the wage of 120 roubles was considered meager and 180 decent (driver of the Moscow bus made about that and in the undergound 200+ if I recall correctly).

Canada
Yeah.....Canada!!
:D

Thirty Years in a Gulag is preferable to a life under capitalism. At least in the Gulag you actually did something to warrant being in a prison.

And, Eureka Australis earns ignorant idiot award for the month.

Thirty Years in a Gulag is preferable to a life under capitalism. At least in the Gulag you actually did something to warrant being in a prison.

HAHAHA OH WOW

Thirty Years in a Gulag is preferable to a life under capitalism. At least in the Gulag you actually did something to warrant being in a prison.
Then sell all of your belongings and take a flight from Australia to Siberia. Make sure not to buy anything, or take anything more than the clothes that you're wearing. Make sure to take a policeman who'll bludgeon you half to death if you don't work hard enough down the uranium mines. Or if you speak up about the conditions. Or because they're bored.

Arm said policeman so that he can shoot you if you dare to, say, forage food from the local bushes, assuming that there are any.

Incidentally, you won't last more than a couple of years in a Gulag, and even if you do, then it makes no odds, seeing as you won't get housing or a job anyway on your return.

Enjoy your trip, then!

Nothing like a current article on Soviet/Communist genocide to spead this thread along.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071123/ap_on_re_eu/ukraine_great_famine

Oh, and by the way..anyone who wouldn't pick America over the USSR is either an insane commie or a leftist so blinded by their anti-Americanism, that they would say Soviet Union over America.

You don't have to LOVE America or even like America to know that it is better than the Soviet Union in just about every way shape or form, and that's really not saying much at all....

Thirty Years in a Gulag is preferable to a life under capitalism. At least in the Gulag you actually did something to warrant being in a prison.
Grow the fuck up, it's not funny millions of people died because of those shitheads your defending. Soviet sympathizers are not funny and are to be taken very seriously. Don't you ever think about how you may make people who lost family to the USSR's polcieis feel?

Here, read this:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071123/ap_on_re_eu/ukraine_great_famine

Read up on those Communist butchers you so love to praise.

Grow the fuck up, it's not funny millions of people died because of those shitheads your defending. Soviet sympathizers are not funny and are to be taken very seriously. Don't you ever think about how you may make people who lost family to the USSR's polcieis feel?

Here, read this:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071123/ap_on_re_eu/ukraine_great_famine

Read up on those Communist butchers you so love to praise.

You're off to a delightful mourning, aren't you?

The US.

You're off to a delightful mourning, aren't you?
B-e-a-utiful.

The US, what kind of choice is that? Just because the USSR in the 80s was probably the best in its history, it, from what I've heard, was still a piece of crap.

Nothing like a current article on Soviet/Communist genocide to spead this thread along.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071123/ap_on_re_eu/ukraine_great_famine

Oh, and by the way..anyone who wouldn't pick America over the USSR is either an insane commie or a leftist so blinded by their anti-Americanism, that they would say Soviet Union over America.

You don't have to LOVE America or even like America to know that it is better than the Soviet Union in just about every way shape or form, and that's really not saying much at all....

You should check my answer then.

Should be something centrist might be able to back up. Them and idealist revolutionaries willing to risk their life to help others.

You should check my answer then.

Should be something centrist might be able to back up. Them and idealist revolutionaries willing to risk their life to help others.

What?

What?

Let me guess, you didn't check my answer?

Let me guess, you didn't check my answer?
What does that even mean...check your answer? :confused:

What does that even mean...check your answer? :confused:

I answered the question of "US or USSR" earlier in the thread. I was asking you to go back and take a look.

Other people also came with reasonable motives for choosing the USSR, including the fact that it was their home at the time, after all.

I came with the motive that 1) As an educated foreigner, I would be paid more, 2) As a socialist, I'd be supportive of some aspects, 3) As a liberalist, I'd be able to oppose other aspects (through passive or active resistance, I'm sure I'd figure it out while I was there), particularly those that caused direct, massive deaths.

Anyone who tries to wreck socialism deserves the gulag.

I came with the motive that 1) As an educated foreigner, I would be paid more, 2) As a socialist, I'd be supportive of some aspects, 3) As a liberalist, I'd be able to oppose other aspects (through passive or active resistance, I'm sure I'd figure it out while I was there), particularly those that caused direct, massive deaths.
But the standard of living was not even comparable to America's. The point is that there was a reason that didn't usually let people out of the country. In a sense, it's citizens were enslaved in their country which was really more of a prison with the KGB as the guards and the Government as the warden.

Living under the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were equally terrible..as they were police states. No Western standard of living can even come close to how terrible it was in Russia.

But the standard of living was not even comparable to America's. The point is that there was a reason that didn't usually let people out of the country. In a sense, it's citizens were enslaved in their country which was really more of a prison with the KGB as the guards and the Government as the warden.

Most people can't be bothered to leave the places they live.

Living under the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were equally terrible..as they were police states. No Western standard of living can even come close to how terrible it was in Russia.

However, living under either would allow you to help the resistance against those oppressive governments.

Of course, I'm not honestly the type to go looking for trouble, but then, if I had to choose I would choose the USSR, because I am not in the US. If I was in the US, I wouldn't be bothered.

Anyone who tries to wreck socialism deserves the gulag.
Oh, go start a revolution somewhere so some right winger will finally put an end to your nonsense.
Most people can't be bothered to leave the places they live.
Not true. Not if the places they live are terrible and they beleive there may be better opportunities for them outside their country. For instance, since the destruction of the USSR and it's "laxing" of immigration policies, look how many Russians have come to Israel. People WERE trying to leave Russia. Or look at all the people trying to leave to West Germany....

People did try to leave. And it was always one way...east to west..nobody ever WANTED to get in behind the Iron Curtain.


However, living under either would allow you to help the resistance against those oppressive governments.
Sounds nice, but realisticly you'd probably be shot because with those secret police you really don't have much of a chance to resist.

Of course, I'm not honestly the type to go looking for trouble, but then, if I had to choose I would choose the USSR, because I am not in the US. If I was in the US, I wouldn't be bothered.
So let me get this straight. You'd chose and terrible life in a shitty totalitarian police state with a secret police with a terrible economy, slavery and concentration camps just to "possibly" "help the resistance" over one of the best countries in the world, a stable, modern, 1st world super power?

So let me get this straight. You'd chose and terrible life in a shitty totalitarian police state with a secret police with a terrible economy, slavery and concentration camps just to "possibly" "help the resistance" over one of the best countries in the world, a stable, modern, 1st world super power?

Yes, but only because of a combination of reasons (one of them being that I would be at an advantage in the USSR. I wouldn't be at an optimal advantage in Nazi Germany, so I think I'd forego that).

People did try to leave. And it was always one way...east to west..nobody ever WANTED to get in behind the Iron Curtain.

False

I want to live in the United States from 67 to 69 can we have an option like that ?

its like choosing between a hot acid bath and a cold cancerous trip to inside Chernobyl's reactor

Ditto. But without the typo.

Yes, but only because of a combination of reasons (one of them being that I would be at an advantage in the USSR. I wouldn't be at an optimal advantage in Nazi Germany, so I think I'd forego that).
What exactly is your advantage that wouldn't be put to good use in NS Deutschland nor in America but would be in USSR?

Early on, yeah. But the later you got, the fewer and fewer people that wanted to be part of the Communist bloc.

But his blanket statement was false, there was a Brit in the Korean War era that, before getting caught spying for the Soviets defected to the Soviet Union, undoubted there were others also, though that's the only instance that I know of

Care to elaborate? Using numbers this time?

see post #99

False

Early on, yeah. But the later you got, the fewer and fewer people that wanted to be part of the Communist bloc.

False

Care to elaborate? Using numbers this time?

Care to elaborate? Using numbers this time?

Actually, I found some data regarding immigration to East Germany from 1951-1965:

http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/sub_document.cfm?document_id=925

Obviously, more people went from East to West than vice versa, but the immigration to the East was not trivial. Immigration to and from the USSR is not readily available, based upon the data I've seen. Chances are, however, it was a good deal smaller than that for East Germany; as the wealthiest and most functional Communist state, it was a lot more likely to attract immigrants than the USSR, which in many ways was the least developed and efficient of the Eastern Bloc states.

Anyone who tries to wreck socialism deserves the gulag.
And anyone who thinks that sending people to what is essentially a concentration camp, due to their political views, is nothing more that a neo-Nazi in communist colours.

You're a fucking disgrace. Grow up.

False
OK, not entirely true, but from 2 to 3 million people went from East Germany to West Germany, whereas only about 90,000 went the other way.

And anyone who thinks that sending people to what is essentially a concentration camp, due to their political views, is nothing more that a neo-Nazi in communist colours.
Well said, sir.

I pity the 'socialists' who think that Stalin's terror was somehow justified.

Or in any way connected to socialism.

OK, not entirely true, but from 2 to 3 million people went from East Germany to West Germany, whereas only about 90,000 went the other way.

You said that nobody chose to go behind the Iron Curtain, which is False, the fact that more wanted out than in is beside the point

You said that nobody chose to go behind the Iron Curtain, which is False, the fact that more wanted out than in is beside the point
I didn't say that... TAI did...

I pity the 'socialists' who think that Stalin's terror was somehow justified.

It was If and only if your name was Ио́сиф Виссарио́нович Джугашви́ли

I didn't say that... TAI did...

Sorry, forgot who said what, doesn't change the content of my answer

It was If and only if your name was Ио́сиф Виссарио́нович Джугашви́ли
It wouldn't be justified even if you were Stalin.
Sorry, forgot who said what, doesn't change the content of my answer
Yes, a mighty <3% of people went from West to East... whoop-dy do.

It wouldn't be justified even if you were Stalin.

It would be (and was from his point of view), of course he was paranoid as hell


Yes, a mighty <3% of people went from West to East... whoop-dy do.

And again, doesn't change the fact that his statement was false

It was. If and only if your name was Ио́сиф Виссарио́нович Джугашви́ли
Perhaps Stalin justified it to himself, but it doesn't make it a justifiable act.

It would be (and was from his point of view), of course he was paranoid as hell
Self-justification doesn't really cut it.

Perhaps Stalin justified it to himself, but it doesn't make it a justifiable act.

:cool: I was being silly :cool:


and checking to see if anybody would check for invisible print

And anyone who thinks that sending people to what is essentially a concentration camp, due to their political views, is nothing more that a neo-Nazi in communist colours.

You're a fucking disgrace. Grow up.
Don't rise to it, he obviously just likes pissing people off and craves those kinds of reactions. Your best bet is just to ignore him, it's not like those views hold any credibility in western society anyway, particularly in this day and age.

As for the poll, I would obviously opt for the US. If I had to move to a different country it wouldn't be the US, there are other developed countries I would prefer. But I'd definitely opt for the US over any communist state, no doubt in my mind on that one.

Hmmm, I've been think about the OP for a wee while now, and I must say, I'd be rather tempted to plump for the USSR.

My reasoning is thus:

Yes, the US would be a freer society, but being able to watch the break-up of the USSR in the 80s and 90s from the 'inside' would be damn exciting. The Hungarian revolutions, the Solidarity movement, perestroika & glasnost, the (admittedly faulty) start of free speech and media slipping into the late 80's and early 90's.

At times a terrible place, no doubt. But an interesting one nonetheless.

Actually, I found some data regarding immigration to East Germany from 1951-1965

Well, I started looking for documents in Russian and I found one study, a publication of the Faculty of Economics of the Lomonosov University.
It's in pdf format (http://www.demostudy.ru/books/volume%2010_rus.pdf) so I can't copy it here directly, but the relevant part says:
"During the soviet period immigration into the Soviet Union was primarily political. In the first years of soviet rule tens of thousands of people truly believing in the socialist ideals entered the USSR. The process of their naturalization was extremally simplified. The years 1936-39 are marked with the arrival of thousands of Spaniards running from the fascist regime. In the beginning of the 1950s over 120 thousand Armenians entered from Syria, Iran and Greece. In the 1960 tens of thousands Greeks ran from the "black colonels" regime. However, a big part of these "political immigrants" returned to their homelands after the democratic rule was reestablished there. All in all pure immigration into the country during the years of the soviet rule was about one million."

being able to watch the break-up of the USSR in the 80s and 90s from the 'inside' would be damn exciting.
Watching them from the USSR was like listening to Radio Europe or The Voice of America in the Eastern Block - you heard mostly the white noise or loud music as a result of government efforts to protect the citizens from horrible truths. Ironically the samizdat, although it took the name from Russian language, was almost nonexistent in the post-Brezhnev USSR and as a result citizens had NO alternative sources of information. Even newspapers published in other countries of the Warsaw Pact, especially Poland, were often confiscated on the borders.
So you'd have a much better view from ANY other part of the Soviet empire.

Lee Harvey Oswlad was a communist. Lee Harvey Oswald shot and killed John F. Kennedy. You don't want to be like Lee Harvey Oswald, do you?

What exactly is your advantage that wouldn't be put to good use in NS Deutschland nor in America but would be in USSR?

Well, I would by default have been in Nazi Germany, but I don't have blond hair, so I wouldn't be the most favoured. I wouldn't have chosen it though.

The US, being what it is, wouldn't have needed one such as me and wouldn't have wanted me either (they would have thought me a communist and no, they wouldn't be correct in that assumption).

The USSR, however, as I already stated, favoured educated foreigners above their own people. On top of that, I would, at the very least, be able to play along and, at best, actually like certain aspects. Finally, I could both provide useful assistance to the people living in the USSR, as well as fighting against the oppressive aspects of the governments and what better time to do that than the 80s?

OK, not entirely true, but from 2 to 3 million people went from East Germany to West Germany, whereas only about 90,000 went the other way.

Particularly interesting are the 22 Americans and one Scotsman who defected into China after the Korean War, and five Americans who defected into North Korea. (see wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_defectors_in_the_Korean_War)). There was a British documentary film made recently about the last American still living in North Korea.

Olmedreca;13234144']Erm, is this meant to be funny or something. Because why any same person would pick USSR? Economic stagnation, total deficit(people had to stand in long queues for buying goods), opressive government(yes, it started getting better with Perestroika, but it was still quite bad).

Don't forget massive military conscription programs.

Particularly interesting are the 22 Americans and one Scotsman who defected into China after the Korean War, and five Americans who defected into North Korea. (see wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_defectors_in_the_Korean_War)). There was a British documentary film made recently about the last American still living in North Korea.

It's interesting that most of them were back in the US by the end of the decade.

Lee Harvey Oswlad was a communist. Lee Harvey Oswald shot and killed John F. Kennedy. You don't want to be like Lee Harvey Oswald, do you?
...

Idi Amin was a capitalist, and actually ate some of his victims, as well as killing a whole bunch of people himself.

Do you see how stupid that kind of argument is?

Lee Harvey Oswlad was a communist. Lee Harvey Oswald shot and killed John F. Kennedy. You don't want to be like Lee Harvey Oswald, do you?

Actually, LHO failed massively at being a Communist. He tried to defect to the USSR and managed to fuck it up.

I can't believe this is seriously a poll, or that the USSR even has a single vote. USA, hands down, no contest.

I can't believe this is seriously a poll, or that the USSR even has a single vote.
Better examine those beliefs! :p