NationStates Jolt Archive

If you had been alive during the Spanish Civil War, which faction would you have fought for, and why? There will possibly be a poll, if someone can give me a long enough list of some of the major factions.

Hmm... probably some left-wing group at the time, as a part of the International Brigades.

I'd of stayed home and invented the internet to whine on :p

failing that the War Resisters' International might of been a good idea (seeing as how the anarchist would all die horribly)

You think that if the commies had won, that they would have stayed neutral in the war? The Axis powers would have invaded Spain and god knows how many more people would have died in the death camps and the fighting.

Be very happy for the Spanish that Franco won.

Hmm... probably some left-wing group at the time, as a part of the International Brigades.
Ditto.

You think that if the commies had won, that they would have stayed neutral in the war? The Axis powers would have invaded Spain and god knows how many more people would have died in the death camps and the fighting.

so it would be a bit like what happened anyway, also tired as I am about debating WWII Hitler never planned to invade Spain he had a timetable to keep! (how Germanic of him:p)

also godwin

Be very happy for the Spanish that Franco won.

confess you would congratulate the Germans on Hitler if you had the chance

Basques or Communists/Socialists.

You think that if the commies had won, that they would have stayed neutral in the war? The Axis powers would have invaded Spain and god knows how many more people would have died in the death camps and the fighting.

Be very happy for the Spanish that Franco won.
Actually the Spanish Republic was broadly centre-left, just with communist elements.

Actually the Spanish Republic was broadly centre-left, just with communist elements.

I'd also say they where fairly fascist with some of there policy's especially their stance on Muslims

Well, I'm German, so if I had been there I most likely would have been with Legion Condor.

But if I was Spanish, I would most likely have tried to leave.

But if I had to fight, I probably would have sided with the anarchists. I really don't like fascism, and I'm not a fan of conservatives either. At least the anarchists would leave me alone.

Of course I haven't actually read up all that much, so it may well be that I'd be appalled by the anarchists too, leaving me stuffed. Then I might have no choice but to go with the Republicans.

i would've hung out with my good friend durruti

i would have fought in the Abraham Lincoln brigade and fought against fascism. Then if the republic was reestablished i would have fought against anarchists because they're just plain stupid.:mp5:

i would've hung out with my good friend durruti

so it was you with the pistol!

Probably for one of the left-wing factions.

If you had been alive during the Spanish Civil War, which faction would you have fought for, and why? There will possibly be a poll, if someone can give me a long enough list of some of the major factions.

More than likely I'd be on the side of the Republicans, against the Nationalists.

i would've hung out with my good friend durruti

Whom?

I'd also say they where fairly fascist with some of there policy's especially their stance on Muslims

Not fascist, cultural racist I would say, it's the same as the French socialists and Mitterrand's 'special relationship' with former colonies, the real fascists were obviously the Falangists.

I did think it was quite cool how the anarchist and syndicalist communes fought for the Republic though.

If you had been alive during the Spanish Civil War, which faction would you have fought for, and why? There will possibly be a poll, if someone can give me a long enough list of some of the major factions.

I would fight for Franco... Espescially the Carlists, mainly because the were royalists and not as far right as the Fascist Falangists in my opinion...

The amount of disinformation and false presumptions mentioned in this thread are scary. The Spanish Civil War was a very complex and intertwined conflict with many party interests, which managed to split themselves to two sides. It wasn't as simple as Fascist vs Socialist. I will try to summarize the events somewhat in this post:


The Second Republic was declared in 1931. This Republic was led by a coalition of the left and center. A number of controversial reforms were passed, such as the Agrarian Law of 1932, distributing land among poor peasants. Millions of Spaniards had been living in more or less absolute poverty under the firm control of the aristocratic landowners in a feudal-like system. These reforms, along with anticlericalist acts and the expulsion of Muslims (yes it was the socialist/left/communists who kicked the muslims out of the country not the fascist/right/conservatives), as well as military cut-downs and reforms, created strong opposition from the former elite.
In April, parliament replaced President Niceto Alcalá-Zamora, a moderate who had alienated virtually all the parties, with Azaña. Although the right also voted for Zamora's removal, this was a watershed event which inspired many conservatives to give up on parliamentary politics. Azaña was the object of intense hate by Spanish rightists, who remembered how he had pushed a reform agenda through a recalcitrant parliament in 1931–33

On July 12, 1936, José Castillo, a member of the Socialist Party and lieutenant in the Assault Guards, a special police corps created to deal with urban violence, was murdered by a far right group in Madrid. The following day José Calvo Sotelo, the leader of the conservative opposition in the Cortes (Spanish parliament), was killed in revenge by Luis Cuenca who was operating in a commando unit of the Civil Guard led by Captain Fernando Condés Romero. Condés was close to the Socialist leader Indalecio Prieto, and although there is no indication that Prieto was complicit in Cuenca's decision to shoot Calvo Sotelo, the assassination of a member of parliament aroused suspicions and strong reactions amongst the Center and the Right.[9] Calvo Sotelo was the most prominent Spanish monarchist and had protested against what he viewed as an escalating anti-religious terror, expropriations, and hasty agricultural reforms, which he considered Bolshevist and Anarchist. He instead advocated the creation of a corporative state and declared that if such a state was fascist, he was also a fascist.

Also around this time the Socialist government was arguably complicit in the murder and terror on clergy, refusing to move against the Anarchists/Communists who whose assaults during what has been termed Spain's Red Terror included sacking and burning monasteries and churches and killing nearly 7,000 Catholic clergy. It is estimated that in the course of the red terror, 6,832 members of the Catholic clergy were killed. Another source breaks down the figures as follows: 282 nuns, 13 bishops, 4172 diocesan priests, 2364 monks and friars, among them 259 Claretians, 226 Franciscans, 204 Piarists, 176 Brothers of Mary, 165 Christian Brothers, 155 Augustinians, 132 Dominicans, and 114 Jesuits were killed. In some dioceses, the numbers are overwhelming: "in Barbastro 88 percent of the secular clergy were murdered, 66 percent in Lerida, 62 percent in Tortosa, 44 per cent in Segorbe, about half of the priests in Malaga, Minorca and Toledo." There are accounts of Catholic faithful being forced to swallow rosary beads, thrown down mine shafts and priests being forced to dig their own graves before being buried alive.

The cold murder of unarmed men and women of faith. Who could do nothing but stand and pray as they were as mentioned above often very brutally murdered with de facto government consent was the last straw for many. President Manuel Azaña made the well-publicized comment that all of the convents in Madrid were not worth one Republican life when events such as the one's below came to light.

Individual Examples of Anarchist/Communist/Republican/Socialist Atrocities:

The parish priest of Navalmoral was put through a sacrilegous parody of Christ's Crucfixion. At the end of his suffering the militiamen debated whether actually to crucify him or just shoot him. They finished with a shooting. His last request was to be allowed to face this tormenters so he could bless them.

The Bishop of Jaen and his sister were murdered in front of two thousand celebrating spectators by a special executioner, a woman nick-named La Pecosa, the freckled one. The Bishop of Almeria was murdered while working on a history of Toledo. His card index file was destroyed.] In Madrid a nun was killed because she refused a proposition of marriage from a militiman who helped storm her convent. In En Pardo, near Madrid, a group of militiamen became drunk on communion wine while trying the parish priest. One militiaman used the chalice as a washing bowl as he shaved himself.

Although rare, some nuns were raped by militiamen before they were shot. The priest of Cienpozuelos was thrown into a corral with fighting bulls where he was gored into unconsciousness. Afterwards one of his ears was cut off to imitate the feat of a matador after a successful bullfight.

In Cuidad Real, the priest was castrated and his sexual organs stuffed in his mouth. Also in Cuidad Real, a crucifix was shoved down the throat of a mother of two Jesuits.


For quite a few of the old Cadre. Generals, soldiers, aristocrats. This affront to the clergy and all the questionable reforms was the last straw. They decided that this Spain where any man can go and kill an unarmed priest and rape nuns with government consent was not acceptable and planned a coup to end what they saw as pure "anarchy and madness" to quote Francisco Franco.
On July 17, 1936, the nationalist-traditionalist rebellion long feared by some in the Popular Front government began. Its start was signaled by the phrase "Over all of Spain, the sky is clear" that was broadcast on the radio. Casares Quiroga, who had succeeded Azaña as prime minister, had in the previous weeks exiled the military officers suspected of conspiracy against the Republic, including General Manuel Goded y Llopis and General Francisco Franco, sent to the Balearic Islands and to the Canary Islands, respectively. Both generals immediately took control of these islands. Franco then flew to Spanish Morocco to see Juan March Ordinas, where the Nationalist Army of Africa were almost unopposed in assuming control (Due to the Socialist expulsion of muslims from Spain/and the desecration/crimes against Clergy/Virgin/Churches/Holy Statues [in the Koran it is forbidden to insult Jesus or his mother, and burning churches dedicated to them more then just insults, as does the brutal murders of Priests/Nuns which was seen as unacceptable] the support was almost completely for the Nationalists/Fascists).
Any hope of a quick ending to the war was dashed on July 21, the fifth day of the rebellion, when the Nationalists captured the main Spanish naval base at Ferrol in northwestern Spain. Nationalist forces under Franco won another great victory on September 27 when they relieved the Alcázar at Toledo. Which slowly meant that both sides were reaching equal strength. After 4 years Franco finally won by consolidating his hold on all of Spain.




+ Both sides committed about similar atrocities. Both sides killed about 50,000 enemy sympathizers in the first days of the war.

++ Franco publicly stated that never again should such a backward Socialist government have any hold on Spain as long as he is alive. So after the end of the War, there were harsh reprisals against Franco's former enemies on the left, when thousands of Republicans were imprisoned and between 10,000 and 28,000 executed, according to the most conservative estimates. But death tolls from 50,000 to 200,000 have been proposed for this period, known in Spanish as la Feroz Matanza (the Fierce Slaughter). This was done to ensure that there could finally be peace and one side was vanquished decisively.
Also Franco forced all of Spain to accept one language. Castillian Spanish (Spain had 2 main languages Castillian (most speakers) and Catalan with one or two other minority languages). He sought to unify the nation by force.
It was also under him that Spain modernized. The miracle economic growth of the early 60's finally killed any socialist ideologies until Franco's death. Since Franco managed to provide almost all Spaniards with electricity, water, food and ensured a rigid peace. Which the Socialist were all unable to do during their reign of power in the 30's.

+++ All this makes Franco's legacy a mixed one. True he was a Fascist. But also many contemporary Spanish intellectuals fiercely debate would Spain be the modern rich nation it is today if Franco had not forced his economic reforms and forced stability onto the nation? Or would Spain be more like Russia and other East bloc nations, economically ruined and with a heavy rebuild phase ahead? Since it is rather doubtful the Socialist as unorganized as they were could have gotten most of what Franco later achieved working. Also Franco wiped out the Anarchists, while the Socialists were too weak or unwilling to stop them from terrorizing inland Spain and so created a Spain where people didn't get murdered on the street.





In short. I would have probably left the country. As both sides were excessively brutal to sympathizers of the other side. But on the other hand the Fascists despite all their shortcomings did not brutally murder/rape unarmed clergy, expel all muslims from Spain in a racist ideologue move.

Simply said the socialists tolerated the terrorizing of the spanish population, the vandalism of religious property, the murder of clergy or relatives of clergy members. The socialists were racist, whereas the fascist had much support from the muslims (Without muslim support in the first days of the war it is likely that the socialists would have crushed what was a very weak fascist movement in the beginning).

It is true that the Fascists also killed many people. both had the same death toll infliction at the end of the conflict. However the fascists did not murder out of religious or racist reasons as the socialists did. Hence I would say if I "had" to pick a side I would choose the fascist side. But in all honesty both sides had dirt up to their knee's- , however the fascists were the lesser evil if one looks at all the events and atrocities pragmatically.

*snip*

But in all honesty both sides had dirt up to their knee's- , however the fascists were the lesser evil if one looks at all the events and atrocities pragmatically.

History you say? Looks just like a wall of text to me :p

If I'd been living in Spain, I might have fought.
I doubt I'd have gone there to fight for the Republic.
I'm lazy and I'm not that eager to be shot at.

As interesting as your post was, you make one key mistake --- that is, assuming the anarchists were a united faction in that way. I personally would have sided with the anarchists, because I am one.

I would have refused to participate in any massacres, done what I could for the commune, and only fought if necessary. In other words, somebody willing to live by those principles.

True. To call all on the republican or nationalist side guilty is an oversimplification. There were doubtless good people on both sides.

However point in fact was that this period of time was a very turbulent one politically. Spain was a socialist republic at the time. However the State's willingness to allow murder of monarchist/fascist/conservative politicians, roman catholic clergy, ethnic cleansing of muslim inhabitants and even arson/murder on random people in cities gave the Nationalist movement the power it needed to overthrow the socialist republican state.

It was the publication and spreading of the above mentioned massacres and crimes against humanity on side of the socialists that allowed the formation of a unified front out of the conservative/monarchist/fascist groups. Which decided to mold into one front. But even then the coup would probably had failed had they not had support of many common people who were disgusted at the anarchist crimes gutting the country.

Also worth mentioning. An old tradition in the Spain is that in a family (better off family) the oldest son takes on the trade of the father, the second son goes to the military and the youngest son is given to god (becomes a monk/priest). This led to quite a few people in the military having relatives in the clergy, and they obviously were not happy with the prospect of the state condoning the murder of their potential relatives.
This led to quite a large portion of the military and individual military bases, particularly those on the colonies to join the uprising against the socialist government in the first days.