NationStates Jolt Archive

We couldn't have an Xmas season without this, could we? Is anyone as tired of this particular "controversy" as I am?

I really don't care if it's called Christmas, the Holiday Season or Winter Solstice.

http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2007/11/16/lowes-petsmart-targeted-by-conservatives-fighting-war-on-chri/

Merry Mithras Day:D

Surprise, surprise.

Besides, this sort of materialism shouldn't be condoned by Christians anyway. If they really cared, they'd be campaigning against commercial Christmas regardless of what it's called.

Merry Mithras Day:D

*worships*
*collects figurines and porn for proper worship*


Oh yeah, what about
THE
WAR
ON
NEUTRALITY!?

I hate these filthy neutrals, Kif! With enemies, you know where they stand, but with neutrals—who knows. It sickens me.
..
What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

if this is what i think it is, without even having to look, the whole thing is multiple silliness because the charismatic leader, wrongfully exicuted by a paranoid government 2000 and some odd years ago, was extremely UNlikely to have been born on or near midwinter's eve in the first place.

he MIGHT have been born on the 25th, or more likely the earlier, of the TENTH MONTH, which is what DECember WAS before a pope named gregory added julius and agustus to the middle of the calender.

of course mythrus day had already been celibrated along about the end of what is now december. but mythrus wasn't exactly in keeping with what the season has come to be pretended to be about.

and there ain't a damd thing wrong with making trees pretty, as long as what your hanging from them isn't people or other living organisms. although it might be better to decorate them out in the woods instead of chopping them down and brining them into the house.

midwinter's eve feast is a time to celibrate having made it that far through the lean mounths without dying of hypothermia, and of having enough rations put by to make through to spring and even enough surplus of them to have a feast to celibrate this.

it is, of course, if anyone, those who use the title of a revealer of organzid belief to excuse their harrassment and abuse of everyone else, who USURPED the midwinters solstice and the celibrations everyone else was already having about that time, and NOT the other way arround as they so loudly and pretentiously claim. adamantly and ignorantly in their fanatacism.

=^^=
.../\...

XXX-mas FTW! Where we exchange sexual favours and 'baste' our 'turkeys'.

We couldn't have an Xmas season without this, could we? Is anyone as tired of this particular "controversy" as I am?

I really don't care if it's called Christmas, the Holiday Season or Winter Solstice.

http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2007/11/16/lowes-petsmart-targeted-by-conservatives-fighting-war-on-chri/

Oh my fuck...excuse me while I summon the Bismark from history and aim its cannons at every damned person complaining about a War on Christmas.

Ahhh Christmas, what a lovely day of drunken shenanigans.

It's so nice to be in Japan where this type of crap can be safely ignored; it being 5,000 miles away.

Oh my fuck...excuse me while I summon the Bismark from history and aim its cannons at every damned person complaining about a War on Christmas.
... Erm...

... Erm...

...

Say one more word and I'll summon the Yamato and aim its cannons at you.

...

Say one more word and I'll summon the Yamato and aim its cannons at you.

Is that with or without the Wave Motion Gun?

(Bonus 1,000 pts for whomever gets that reference)

Is that with or without the Wave Motion Gun?

(Bonus 1,000 pts for whomever gets that reference)

You should probably make it a more vague reference then. Space Battleship Yamato

We couldn't have an Xmas season without this, could we? Is anyone as tired of this particular "controversy" as I am?

I really don't care if it's called Christmas, the Holiday Season or Winter Solstice.

http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2007/11/16/lowes-petsmart-targeted-by-conservatives-fighting-war-on-chri/

For me, I call it Christmas - heck, I'm not even a Christian and yet, I'll say "Merry Christmas' just to piss off all those miserable atheists who try to drag everyone down in their crypt of misery.

Fucked if I know why Americans make such an issue about it; ACLU bitching because there is a nativity scene on public property, politicians daring to say 'Christmas' - dear god, talk about a group of people in dire need of getting a life!

I didn't read the link, but if I know it as what I think it is I believe the Christmas controversy is a conservative conspiracy by conservative pundits to write books on inane topics, poorly proof-read, only to release them in time for the holiday season, market it as the perfect gift for that special oppressed holiday's (that is certainly not oppressed at all) practitioners. All with the all to transparent attempt to drive up their sales records.

Honestly, it's sick.

Happy Festivus. A Festival For The Rest Of Us. Now lemme get my lead pipe to decorate.

Oh, are Christians being oppressed again? It must be a day ending in "y."

You should probably make it a more vague reference then. Space Battleship Yamato

I'm feeling generous

I covered up the topic with my hand after I clicked on the link, because I wanted to guess what this was about.

My guess is: War on Christmas bullshit.

Dingdingding.

You should probably make it a more vague reference then. Space Battleship Yamato

Really...I mean, this is the internet...

Christians!

...

No sorry, I'm being to broad with my announcement...

RIGHT WING HYPOCRITICAL FUCKNUTS! Hear my words!

There are other holidays that occur around Christmas, not just those of other faiths but those that all can embrace! New Year's anyone?! It makes good sense politically and commercially to say "happy holidays". Everyone's included, no one's left out.

So happy Nondescript Present Day and fuck you!

...

Say one more word and I'll summon the Yamato and aim its cannons at you.

WHUT?!

*summons HMS Hood and throws it at Kyronea*

" Any fool who goes about with Merry Christmas on his lips, should be boiled in his own pudding."
-Ebineezer Scrooge

Really...I mean, this is the internet...

There are no vague references on the interwebs. All hail Google!

"A search on PetSmart's home page found 252 references to 'holiday.' It also found 43 references to 'Christmas,'" the AFA says. "But, alas, this is very misleading. When you click on 'Christmas' you are directed to a page containing the same gifts you get when you search for holiday. Of all the items that pop up when you search for Christmas, not a single one mentions Christmas or is identified as being a Christmas gift."

You're not celebrating hard enough! More! MORE! BE MERRY OR WE'LL DESTROY YOU!!!

This is the saddest shit I've ever seen...Oh, no, wait, there's another paragraph...
Wildmon's agenda is pretty far-reaching. It has organized a boycott of Ford Motor Co. (NYSE: F) because of the automaker's support of gay marriage. It even mentions that, "Ford actively recruited homosexuals for employment by advertising on gay job websites."

I guess that peace on earth and goodwill toward men has its limits.
And people listen to this guy...why?

You're not celebrating hard enough! More! MORE! BE MERRY OR WE'LL DESTROY YOU!!!

This is the saddest shit I've ever seen...Oh, no, wait, there's another paragraph...

And people listen to this guy...why?

Because he plays to their prejudices and insecurities.

Because he plays to their prejudices and insecurities.

Ah, good ol' 'fear of otherness,' is there nothing you cannot destroy?

Ah, good ol' 'fear of otherness,' is there nothing you cannot destroy?
Let's try turning it on itself and see what we can do... *Grin*

Let's try turning it on itself and see what we can do... *Grin*

http://www.bartcop.com/anti-christianBigotry.gif

For me, I call it Christmas - heck, I'm not even a Christian and yet, I'll say "Merry Christmas' just to piss off all those miserable atheists who try to drag everyone down in their crypt of misery.
I get a chuckle out the atheists who put up a Christmas tree, buy Christmas presents, sing Christmas carols, attend Christmas parties, and wish others a Merry Christmas. :D

We couldn't have an Xmas season without this, could we? Is anyone as tired of this particular "controversy" as I am?

I really don't care if it's called Christmas, the Holiday Season or Winter Solstice.

http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2007/11/16/lowes-petsmart-targeted-by-conservatives-fighting-war-on-chri/

Not to be pandering to the radicalists here, but why the fuck would you call a christmas tree a family tree in the first place?

Not to be pandering to the radicals here, but why the fuck would you call a christmas tree a family tree in the first place?

Fixed. This new thing with suffixing everything with -ist and -ism is strange.

Fixed. This new thing with suffixing everything with -ist and -ism is strange."What do you mean there's no room for creativity in spelling and grammar?" :D

I get a chuckle out the atheists who put up a Christmas tree, buy Christmas presents, sing Christmas carols, attend Christmas parties, and wish others a Merry Christmas. :D

Why?

"What do you mean there's no room for creativity in spelling and grammar?" :D

Actually, if you read Chomsky, there IS...

"What do you mean there's no room for creativity in spelling and grammar?" :D

Damn right there isn't.

I get a chuckle out the atheists who put up a Christmas tree, buy Christmas presents, sing Christmas carols, attend Christmas parties, and wish others a Merry Christmas. :D

what's even more funny is the Christmas tree decorating, present buying, carol singing atheists who bitch about someone saying "Merry Christmas" because "not everyone is Christian and not everyone celebrates Christmas"

Why?

Because it's silly to claim you reject religion and then go through with the pageantry anyway.

what's even more funny is the Christmas tree decorating, present buying, carol singing atheists who bitch about someone saying "Merry Christmas" because "not everyone is Christian and not everyone celebrates Christmas"

I usually ask myself "What would Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and the rest of the Founding Fathers do?" The surprising answer is that they would, first of all, be appalled that this was even considered worthy of controversy and second of all they would, in spite of their deist/non- (not anti-) religious sentiment, say "Merry Christmas."

I get a chuckle out the atheists who put up a Christmas tree, buy Christmas presents, sing Christmas carols, attend Christmas parties, and wish others a Merry Christmas. :D
Why would you chuckle at that?

Christmas tree = not Christian. The use of evergreens as winter decoration dates back to pre-Christian Rome, though the Scandanavians can probably be credited for our habit of putting colored bulbs and food items on our trees.

Christmas carols = not always Christian. See, Christmas carols are CHRISTMAS carols, which results in most modern carols being about CHRISTMAS, rather than about Christianity. As I'm sure you're well aware, modern Christmas has fuckall to do with Christianity for many people. If you'd like to explain how Frosty and Rudolph are obviously religious characters, please do.

Christmas parties = almost never remotely religious in any way. Indeed, I've been to at least three or four Christmas parties every year that I can remember, and I can't remember a single one that was at all religious. Most Christmas parties are just about who you can get to stand under the mistletoe (another non-Christian item).

Wishing others a Merry Christmas = duh. I also wish my Chinese coworkers a Happy New Year on the Chinese New Year. It's called "being polite."

Frankly, I should think you'd chuckle much harder at Christians who put up "traditional" Christmas decorations that are actually pagan, Norse, or Roman in origin. I would think you'd laugh much harder to see Christians defending the religious nature of secular carols about magic flying herbivores. I would think it would be hilarious to watch Christians take their children to sit on the lap of a comercialized amalgam of Odin, Thor, Ded Moroz, and a Dutch bishop.

what's even more funny is the Christmas tree decorating, present buying, carol singing atheists who bitch about someone saying "Merry Christmas" because "not everyone is Christian and not everyone celebrates Christmas"

People seriously do that? :confused:

Because it's silly to claim you reject religion and then go through with the pageantry anyway.

I don't believe in a god so i must reject all religious holidays?

Even if I treat them just as holidays with some fun traditions?

I usually ask myself "What would Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and the rest of the Founding Fathers do?" The surprising answer is that they would, first of all, be appalled that this was even considered worthy of controversy and second of all they would, in spite of their deist/non- (not anti-) religious sentiment, say "Merry Christmas."

I tihnk a much better answer is: Who gives a shit what some dead politicians think about Christmas?

I tihnk a much better answer is: Who gives a shit what some dead politicians think about Christmas?

I think, in the context, it's a much better touchstone than "What would Jesus do?" And the projected opinion of the "dead politicians" who were instrumental in establishing the parameters by which this country was to be run is, I opine, a valid basis for judgement. So, to respond to your query, I care.

Being atheistic doesn't mean you suddenly have a duty to boycott anything with religious connotations, and besides, 'Christmas' hasn't had strong religious connotations for decades, its more of a festival of commercialism.

I think, in the context, it's a much better touchstone than "What would Jesus do?" And the projected opinion of the "dead politicians" who were instrumental in establishing the parameters by which this country was to be run is, I opine, a valid basis for judgement. So, to respond to your query, I care.

Just because the founded the country is no reason to believe that they would have any better insight into this War On Christmas horseshit than anyone else.

Just because the founded the country is no reason to believe that they would have any better insight into this War On Christmas horseshit than anyone else.

Ah, but they would. Their insight would be that it was a pointless exercise in stupidity, unworthy of intelligent men, and they would go on to more important things, like what to have for dinner.

You do realize this is mockery, don't you?

so, why the long rant about "being oppressed" when someone wishes you a Merry Christmas?
Wait, where's that?

Being atheistic doesn't mean you suddenly have a duty to boycott anything with religious connotations, and besides, 'Christmas' hasn't had strong religious connotations for decades, its more of a festival of commercialism.

so, why the long rant about "being oppressed" when someone wishes you a Merry Christmas? especially if you are celebrating Christmas.

Wait, where's that?

oh, huh? oh, yeah, sorry, that was a RL thing completely unrelated to the thread at hand, sorry.

We couldn't have an Xmas season without this, could we? Is anyone as tired of this particular "controversy" as I am?

I really don't care if it's called Christmas, the Holiday Season or Winter Solstice.

http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2007/11/16/lowes-petsmart-targeted-by-conservatives-fighting-war-on-chri/
I'd prefer that it be called "the holidays". This reflects the commercialization more honestly AND has something religion-neutral that people from different religions can join in common in participation in it, and hopefully in turn reduce the religious divisiveness.

Though yeah, it probably isn't as much of an issue as either side seems to be making it out to be.

Because it's silly to claim you reject religion and then go through with the pageantry anyway.
Why?

I like most Christmas decorations. Lights are pretty. Trees are pretty. Mistletoe leads to snogging. What's not to like?

I like eating. I like excuses to get together with lots of friends and family and eat ourselves stupid. What's not to like?

I like singing. I like giving and receiving presents. I like having parties. I like various nogs and nog-related beverages.

I like Christmas "pageantry" in general. I also reject religion. Given that most of the pageantry of Christmas isn't Christian in origin, what does one's religious orientation really have to do with it?

Because it's silly to claim you reject religion and then go through with the pageantry anyway.

I'm assuming for a great many people that would be very difficult and inconvinient to make at all worthwhile.

so, why the long rant about "being oppressed" when someone wishes you a Merry Christmas? especially if you are celebrating Christmas.
Not necessarily, the holidays should be considered separate from Christmas because there are so many different cultures' celebrations going on around this time anyway, and because with the commercialization about it, it'd be best if we didn't really call it Christmas anyway. That said, however, I wouldn't say being wished a Merry Christmas counts as being oppressed; it's something typically benevolent, hardly something to be worried about.

if you are going to go through all the commercialized Christmas motions, surely you are celebrating Christmas right? singing Christmas carols, buying Christmas presents, getting a Christmas tree, sending out Christmas cards, making Christmas cookies, going to Christmas parties?
Thus far, I have yet to see any person who celebrates Christmas insist that being wished a Merry Christmas is oppressive to them.

Perhaps I'm missing a post or something?

Not necessarily, the holidays should be considered separate from Christmas because there are so many different cultures' celebrations going on around this time anyway, and because with the commercialization about it, it'd be best if we didn't really call it Christmas anyway. That said, however, I wouldn't say being wished a Merry Christmas counts as being oppressed; it's something typically benevolent, hardly something to be worried about.

if you are going to go through all the commercialized Christmas motions, surely you are celebrating Christmas right? singing Christmas carols, buying Christmas presents, getting a Christmas tree, sending out Christmas cards, making Christmas cookies, going to Christmas parties?

Thus far, I have yet to see any person who celebrates Christmas insist that being wished a Merry Christmas is oppressive to them.

Perhaps I'm missing a post or something?

I am speaking in generalities........I actually have heard people whine before (not in this thread today) about people saying "merry Christmas" because "it assumes we are all Christians"

well, if you are celebrating Christmas, someone might assume you might want a greeting.

Agreed, when going around Christmas eve looking at the different decorations, I like looking at all the colours and don't feel guilty about it until I see something that is very obviously religious (like those houses with big decorations portraying Jesus' birth) and even then I don't feel too bad about it, but I'd slightly rather they be considered holiday decorations so that people can set up whatever cultures' decorations they choose; some people can set up Hannukah decorations, or others just secular pretty lights. :)
Heck, my dorm room was lit by Christmas lights 365 days a year, and my boyfriend currently hangs them around his desk because he likes how the diffuse light minimizes eye strain when he's working at his computer late at night.

I stand by my assertion. Lights are pretty.

Why?

I like most Christmas decorations. Lights are pretty. Trees are pretty. Mistletoe leads to snogging. What's not to like?

I like eating. I like excuses to get together with lots of friends and family and eat ourselves stupid. What's not to like?

I like singing. I like giving and receiving presents. I like having parties. I like various nogs and nog-related beverages.

I like Christmas "pageantry" in general. I also reject religion. Given that most of the pageantry of Christmas isn't Christian in origin, what does one's religious orientation really have to do with it?
Agreed, when going around Christmas eve looking at the different decorations, I like looking at all the colours and don't feel guilty about it until I see something that is very obviously religious (like those houses with big decorations portraying Jesus' birth) and even then I don't feel too bad about it, but I'd slightly rather they be considered holiday decorations so that people can set up whatever cultures' decorations they choose; some people can set up Hannukah decorations, or others just secular pretty lights. :)

I am speaking in generalities........I actually have heard people whine before (not in this thread today) about people saying "merry Christmas" because "it assumes we are all Christians"

well, if you are celebrating Christmas, someone might assume you might want a greeting.
Have you encountered somebody who was celebrating Christmas and yet did not want to be wished a Merry Christmas?

That just seems baffling to me.

I am speaking in generalities........I actually have heard people whine before (not in this thread today) about people saying "merry Christmas" because "it assumes we are all Christians"

well, if you are celebrating Christmas, someone might assume you might want a greeting.
What if you're celebrating Hannukah?

What if you're celebrating Hannukah?

with Christmas presents and a Christmas tree?

if you are going to go through all the commercialized Christmas motions, surely you are celebrating Christmas right? singing Christmas carols, buying Christmas presents, getting a Christmas tree, sending out Christmas cards, making Christmas cookies, going to Christmas parties?
See Bottle's post about calling these things "Christmas" things; and no I'm not referring to the one I responded to but another one...

with Christmas presents and a Christmas tree?
Oh ok, never mind, I assumed you were referring to wishing complete strangers a merry christmas. Ok, then, but if Hannukah can have a separate holiday, why can't the holidays simply be considered separate from Christmas so that Atheists have their holidays and that tradition be considered separate? I'm not Christian, but even I can tell that there's nothing particularily "Christian" about how commercialized this holiday's become anyway...

Oh ok, never mind, I assumed you were referring to wishing complete strangers a merry christmas. Ok, then, but if Hannukah can have a separate holiday, why can't the holidays simply be considered separate from Christmas so that Atheists have their holidays and that tradition be considered separate?
if I am not sure what traditions or lack thereof people celebrate or don't I generally wish people a happy wintertime (see sig)
my wintertime cards that I send out in December say something comparable.
I'm not Christian, but even I can tell that there's nothing particularily "Christian" about how commercialized this holiday's become anyway...
that was half of my point, if you are celebrating a secular Christmas, then accept my secular greeting.

Ah, the "war on Christmas," in this case categorized by PetSmart merely mentioning Christmas 40-plus times. Yep, I see a real hatred of Christmas there. I mean, when I hate something and want to declare war on it, I totally put positive things about it in 40-plus places on my website.

I swear, this is the silliest issue ever created. (And, as I've said before, if you object to someone wishing you a happy ANYTHING, you're a moron. If I get wished a merry Christmas, I say, "Thanks, you too!" If I get wished a happy Chanukkah, I say, "Thanks, you too!" If I get wished a wonderful randomly-chosen-day, I say "Thanks, you too!" This would seem like the only sensible response.)

I get a chuckle out the atheists who put up a Christmas tree, buy Christmas presents, sing Christmas carols, attend Christmas parties, and wish others a Merry Christmas. :D

I get a chuckle out of the Christians who are celebrating a pagan winter holiday originally instituted to worship other deities and riddled with heresies such as "Santa" and heathen symbolism. The blasphemy and unashamed idolatry of the entire holiday is hilarious, and what's best is that they indoctrinate their children into it! Why, as an atheist I am very tempted to celebrate it just for that cause - to further help the Christians piss off their non-existent deity with this display. Alas, it being non-existent and all, I can't quite bother.

I wouldn't say I 'celebrate' Christmas as such. I abhor many of the commercial things about it and the indoctrination of children in things like nativity plays and people who go to church only on 25th December and Easter. I partake in some parts of the festival of Christmas such as various decorations, giving gifts to family and friends, and others things, but nothing I do has any religious connection, only a traditional cultural one that may or may not have originated in either Christianity or Germanic paganism.

what's even more funny is the Christmas tree decorating, present buying, carol singing atheists who bitch about someone saying "Merry Christmas" because "not everyone is Christian and not everyone celebrates Christmas"
Truly ironic indeed!!

* contemplates response to a Jew who wishes me "Happy Hannukah"....how about...."Happy Hannukah"....in return. :)

THE
WAR
ON
NEUTRALITY!?

Tell my wife... hello.:D

I get a chuckle out of the Christians who are celebrating a pagan winter holiday originally instituted to worship other deities and riddled with heresies such as "Santa" and heathen symbolism. The blasphemy and unashamed idolatry of the entire holiday is hilarious, and what's best is that they indoctrinate their children into it! Why, as an atheist I am very tempted to celebrate it just for that cause - to further help the Christians piss off their non-existent deity with this display. Alas, it being non-existent and all, I can't quite bother.
I don't see celebrating the birth of Christ as "idolatry", and I don't think God would either. Promoting goodwill and peace, IMHO is a noble cause, and hopefully that cause will grow in meaning and practice.

I pray for peace for the denizens of this world each and every day, and it gives me a little peace in my soul. :)

Christmas.

*takes a deep breath*

The only thing that frustrates me more than non-christians who assume that Christmas is a christian holiday is christians who assume it's a christian holiday.

Christmas is a hybrid holiday. It's a mix of Norse, Germanic, Christian and other traditions all thrown into a blender with a little ginger and cinnamon to make a delightful and tasty treat. :)

THe christian aspect, of course comes from Jesus Christ. One thing you'll discover about christian traditions is that they revolve heavily around Jesus Christ. He's sort of the star of the show. The christian contribution to Christmas is the birth of Jesus Christ. It represents peace and generosity. It's a good fit to the hybridized holiday which stands for (as the song says), Peace on Earth. Even if for one day.

Is that such a horrible thing to celebrate? So please, people. For me. Stop pigeonholing CHristmas as a christian holiday. This goes double for christians! :mad:

I don't see celebrating the birth of Christ as "idolatry"

Why are you celebrating in December?


Promoting goodwill and peace, IMHO is a noble cause, and hopefully that cause will grow in meaning and practice.

Let's not go nuts, here. Celebrating Christmas is fun and everything, but it's a bit pompous to claim that you're "promoting goodwill and peace" by celebrating your deity's son's birthday on the wrong date.


I pray for peace for the denizens of this world each and every day, and it gives me a little peace in my soul. :)
As one of said denizens, could I ask that you send me a fruit basket instead? You would still get to feel peaceful, and I'd get fruit. Help me stave off scurvy for a few more weeks, won't you?

If Christians wanted to really follow their deity's actions, they would make all the presents themselves and send the money they saved to a charity for the third world.

I think the problem has really stemmed from a feeling that this is part of a general wave of politically correct actions. Whatever the rights or wrongs in this particular case, there have been episodes were Christmas has been subsumed under the heading of "holidays" while Channukah and Kwanzaa have been promoted.

If companies are going to play favourites, then there customers should do the same. If the management of these enterprises has an issue with the expression of one particular culture then their potential customers who are of that culture should let that business know they will take their custom elsewhere.

Whether it has pagan or Christian origins I don't think is really the issue here and I certainly don't think that has been the motivating factor behind businesses and educational establishments taking issue with it in the US and Europe.

I think the problem has really stemmed from a feeling that this is part of a general wave of politically correct actions. Whatever the rights or wrongs in this particular case, there have been episodes were Christmas has been subsumed under the heading of "holidays" while Channukah and Kwanzaa have been promoted.

If companies are going to play favourites, then their customers should do the same. If the management of these enterprises has an issue with the expression of one particular culture, then their potential customers who are of that culture should let that business know they will take their custom elsewhere.

Whether it has pagan or Christian origins I don't think is really the issue here and I certainly don't think that has been the motivating factor behind businesses and educational establishments taking issue with it in the US and Europe.

if I am not sure what traditions or lack thereof people celebrate or don't I generally wish people a happy wintertime (see sig)
my wintertime cards that I send out in December say something comparable.

that was half of my point, if you are celebrating a secular Christmas, then accept my secular greeting.
Secular Christmas? Didn't Christmas come from the Christian holiday, and therefore wouldn't that make calling what we have now "Christmas" be trying to randomly change the meaning of a word?

And what sig?

I don't see celebrating the birth of Christ as "idolatry",

In December, on the same day the Romans celebrated Sol Invictus?

and I don't think God would either.

Your god is a jealous and petty god. He most certainly would mind getting confused with another deity, not to mention all the paganisms you've stolen into Christmas.

Promoting goodwill and peace, IMHO is a noble cause, and hopefully that cause will grow in meaning and practice.

"Promoting goodwill and peace" - hahaha! That never gets old.

I pray for peace for the denizens of this world each and every day, and it gives me a little peace in my soul. :)

And nothing fails quite like prayer (although, I hear explosive things happen when you rub your juju-bag), so basically you accomplish nothing and feel good about it. How noble.

Is that such a horrible thing to celebrate?

In the name of false deity (as they all are)? Yes.

Man, the War on Christmas® comes earlier every year, doesn't it?


I swear, this is the silliest issue ever created. (And, as I've said before, if you object to someone wishing you a happy ANYTHING, you're a moron. If I get wished a merry Christmas, I say, "Thanks, you too!" If I get wished a happy Chanukkah, I say, "Thanks, you too!" If I get wished a wonderful randomly-chosen-day, I say "Thanks, you too!" This would seem like the only sensible response.)
Indeed, I couldn't agree more! You say it well. :)


And while I remember, have a great Loot And Plunder Day on thursday :fluffle:

Whether it has pagan or Christian origins I don't think is really the issue here and I certainly don't think that has been the motivating factor behind businesses and educational establishments taking issue with it in the US and Europe.
The "War on Christmas" is an issue in Europe? :confused:

Im a christian and I do think this is a little silly. But it is called christmas already and there is no reason to change it so leave it be.

Im a christian and I do think this is a little silly. But it is called christmas already and there is no reason to change it so leave it be.

The reason some people won't "leave it be" is precisely because they see a valid reason to change it.

Secular Christmas? Didn't Christmas come from the Christian holiday, and therefore wouldn't that make calling what we have now "Christmas" be trying to randomly change the meaning of a word?

And what sig?

uh.......Christmas I thought was co-opted from someone else's holiday anyway, and yes, there is a distinctly secular Christmas that has nothing to do with what Christians believe, just like there is a secular Easter with bunnies and candy.

The reason some people won't "leave it be" is precisely because they see a valid reason to change it.

What reason would that be? So we can have NO hollidays or have muslim ones instead?

What reason would that be? So we can have NO hollidays or have muslim ones instead?

I don't have the time or the inclination to debate this with someone who thinks that the bold is a valid statement especially as it isn't my personal view

uh.......Christmas I thought was co-opted from someone else's holiday anyway, and yes, there is a distinctly secular Christmas that has nothing to do with what Christians believe, just like there is a secular Easter with bunnies and candy.
I don't know why they call it Easter but that's a separate subject I know less about. However, if it's secular, why use the same word to describe it as is being used to describe the religious holiday, wouldn't that just cause confusion? Why not just call it the holidays so that the nonreligious component doesn't have a name attached to a particular culture?

Im a christian and I do think this is a little silly. But it is called christmas already and there is no reason to change it so leave it be.
Aside from reasons I mentioned that you have yet to rebutall.

I don't know why they call it Easter but that's a separate subject I know less about. However, if it's secular, why use the same word to describe it as is being used to describe the religious holiday, wouldn't that just cause confusion? Why not just call it the holidays so that the nonreligious component doesn't have a name attached to a particular culture?

I would assume that since they are celebrating what anyone with a brain would call Christmas that saying "merry Christmas" would be just fine.

Should they come up with another name for Easter as well? What shall we say...nondescript multi-cultural holiday nonholiday random baskets?

The "War on Christmas" is an issue in Europe? :confused:

Alas, given the poor quality of my other European languages I usually revert to reading English language news.

I have noticed a number of cases where schools, public bodies and other organisations have told their staff that there weren't allowed Christmas decorations and other signs of marking the festival. While at the same time in those organisations staff were informed (especially in the case of schools) that they would have to participate in other religious festivals. The alleged grounds for the overt discrimination being "encouraging inclusiveness".

Google "banning Christmas in Europe" you'll get quite a few examples.

Why would you chuckle at that?
For the same reason I would chuckle at your attempt to take the Christ out of Christmas below. :)

Christmas tree = not Christian. The use of evergreens as winter decoration dates back to pre-Christian Rome, though the Scandanavians can probably be credited for our habit of putting colored bulbs and food items on our trees.
Actually, it is a Christmas tree:

A Christmas tree (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree), Yule tree or Tannenbaum (German: fir tree) is one of the most popular traditions associated with the celebration of Christmas. It is normally an evergreen coniferous tree that is brought into a home or used in the open, and is decorated with Christmas lights and colourful ornaments during the days around Christmas. An angel or star is often placed at the top of the tree, representing the host of angels or the Star of Bethlehem from the Nativity story......

According to Church records, Saint Boniface (who, also according to Church records, had felled the Thor's Oak) attempted to Christianise the indigenous Germanic tribes by introducing the notion of trinity by using the cone-shaped evergreen trees because of their triangular appearance

Christmas carols = not always Christian. See, Christmas carols are CHRISTMAS carols, which results in most modern carols being about CHRISTMAS, rather than about Christianity. As I'm sure you're well aware, modern Christmas has fuckall to do with Christianity for many people. If you'd like to explain how Frosty and Rudolph are obviously religious characters, please do.
When I was talking about Christmas carols (http://www.carols.org.uk/), I meant Christmas carols, celebrating God and Christ, not your expanded definition.

Christmas parties = almost never remotely religious in any way. Indeed, I've been to at least three or four Christmas parties every year that I can remember, and I can't remember a single one that was at all religious. Most Christmas parties are just about who you can get to stand under the mistletoe (another non-Christian item).
Again, I meant Christmas parties, and not your idea of office parties? Although, most office parties I have attended at that time of year are to celebrate the Christmas season.

Wishing others a Merry Christmas = duh. I also wish my Chinese coworkers a Happy New Year on the Chinese New Year. It's called "being polite."
I am glad that you are polite. :)

Frankly, I should think you'd chuckle much harder at Christians who put up "traditional" Christmas decorations that are actually pagan, Norse, or Roman in origin. I would think you'd laugh much harder to see Christians defending the religious nature of secular carols about magic flying herbivores. I would think it would be hilarious to watch Christians take their children to sit on the lap of a comercialized amalgam of Odin, Thor, Ded Moroz, and a Dutch bishop.
Again, with the carols, I meant Christmas carols and not Rudolph the red nosed reindeer. The tree and decorations to me are all rooted in a celebration of the life of Christ.

Peace. :)

snip

Emphasising the word 'Christ' in 'Christmas' doesn't suddenly give Christian connotations to all the pre-Christian parts of the festival time around the winter solstice. Just because you associate the time with Jesus doesn't mean anyone else cares, nor should they. It is a time of celebration with or without religious significance, the word 'Christmas' is far more wide-ranging and has expanded far outside its religious beginnings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanuckHeaven View Post
I don't see celebrating the birth of Christ as "idolatry",
In December, on the same day the Romans celebrated Sol Invictus?

Quote:
and I don't think God would either.
Your god is a jealous and petty god. He most certainly would mind getting confused with another deity, not to mention all the paganisms you've stolen into Christmas.



Actually, not all Christians celebrate it on December 25th. Also, some Christians actually do see it as idolatry. As of course do Jews who view Christianity as polytheistic (cf. "I am One and indivisible" etc.).

The Bible does actually contain the quote "I am a jealous God" (Exodus). However, the God of Abraham does seem a lot more tolerant by the time of Christ.

Google "banning Christmas in Europe" you'll get quite a few examples.Most of the results are either blogs or forum entries, though...

oh, huh? oh, yeah, sorry, that was a RL thing completely unrelated to the thread at hand, sorry.

Honestly? If you don't KNOW that the person in question celebrates Christmas then the polite phrase is "happy holidays". The one year I was working in a class room where I knew one student was Jewish I made a special point of wishing him a happy Hanuka so he didn't feel left out when I wished the students who celebrated Christmas a merry Christmas. Looked like I made his day.

with Christmas presents and a Christmas tree?

Or Hanuka presents and a Hanuka bush?

Emphasising the word 'Christ' in 'Christmas' doesn't suddenly give Christian connotations to all the pre-Christian parts of the festival time around the winter solstice. Just because you associate the time with Jesus doesn't mean anyone else cares, nor should they. It is a time of celebration with or without religious significance, the word 'Christmas' is far more wide-ranging and has expanded far outside its religious beginnings.
Indeed it has, but it seems that some (not all) Christians simply can't let go.

A shame, really. Lots of things in our everyday lives carry names that originated with old religious ideas (the English words for various days of the week spring to mind). The adoption of the word 'Christmas' is no different, nor should it be.

And no, nothing is sacred.

Honestly? If you don't KNOW that the person in question celebrates Christmas then the polite phrase is "happy holidays". The one year I was working in a class room where I knew one student was Jewish I made a special point of wishing him a happy Hanuka so he didn't feel left out when I wished the students who celebrated Christmas a merry Christmas. Looked like I made his day.

Like I said earlier, if I don't KNOW I say "happy wintertime" since you know not everyone celebrates holidays.

However, if someone talks to me about their Christmas tree, and Christmas shopping and the children doing a Christmas program, and them making Christmas cookies, and I say "Merry Christmas" I get pretty pissed when they go off on this long ass tangent about how intolerant I am of their lack of religion.

Is that with or without the Wave Motion Gun?

(Bonus 1,000 pts for whomever gets that reference)
I'll never tell.
Christians!

WHUT?!

*summons HMS Hood and throws it at Kyronea*

Oh, okay.

*Summons the entire United States fleet that participated at Midway*

What now, eh?

In the name of false deity (as they all are)? Yes.

Then celebrate the idea.

Or don't, you sour sand-in-your-mangina Scrooge. :p

Most of the results are either blogs or forum entries, though...

Bet "forums.jolt.co.uk" comes up somewhere. Then there's:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/12/06/nxmas06.xml
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=494049&in_page_id=1770

I could look for others but I couldn't be bothered.

Indeed it has, but it seems that some (not all) Christians simply can't let go.

A shame, really. Lots of things in our everyday lives carry names that originated with old religious ideas (the English words for various days of the week spring to mind). The adoption of the word 'Christmas' is no different, nor should it be.

And no, nothing is sacred.
Indeed. The only problem is that the original religious use of the word is still extremely common. Given another couple of centuries we can have this discussion, but right now it's still very much mixed.

Then celebrate the idea.

Or don't, you sour sand-in-your-mangina Scrooge. :p

He won't. He probably has no family to celebrate it with anyway, which is probably his own fault.

Aside from reasons I mentioned that you have yet to rebutall.

I was gone.

Not to be pandering to the radicalists here, but why the fuck would you call a christmas tree a family tree in the first place?

That goes back to the Christmas we had too much to drink and crucified my cousin Jesus on this big tree.

That was so much fun, we've been crucifying a family member every Christmas. And we call the tree the "family" tree. Simple really.

That goes back to the Christmas we had too much to drink and crucified my cousin Jesus on this big tree.

That was so much fun, we've been crucifying a family member every Christmas. And we call the tree the "family" tree. Simple really.

I keep wondering if I purchase a family tree if I can get a new family

http://www.affordablehousinginstitute.org/blogs/us/family_tree_small.jpg

I keep wondering if I purchase a family tree if I can get a new family

*snip image*

I don't think the family tree bears fruit the first year. But if you're patient ...

The only problem is that the original religious use of the word is still extremely common. Given another couple of centuries we can have this discussion, but right now it's still very much mixed.
Sorry, but it's precisely the whole "let's wait another few hundred years and see what the atmosphere's like then" stance that pisses so many people off.

People are of course entitled to their own religious beliefs, but to many people -- many more than seems to be popularly acknowledged -- they are no more that that; quaint beliefs, myths. I'm not prepared to tiptoe around the subject for fear of offending someone. That's not to say that I would go out of my way to offend someone about it, but that has a whole lot more to do with basic courtesy than with any special treatment that I afford to ancient fairy stories.

To treat religious belief differently from any other set of beliefs, to accord it some kind of mystical respect or make it taboo to make light of its iconography, its rituals or any of its other idiosyncrasies is silly, and to expect everyone else to do so as a matter of course is insulting.

Do I feel insulted when people wish me a 'Merry Christmas'? Absolutely not - that would be ungracious and, to my mind, rather pathetic. Just don't expect me to encourage kids to take part in nativity plays or join in the chorus of 'Hark, the Herald'.

Courtesy, but not servility.
:)

Sorry, but it's precisely the whole "let's wait another few hundred years and see what the atmosphere's like then" stance that pisses so many people off.

People are of course entitled to their own religious beliefs, but to many people -- many more than seems to be popularly acknowledged -- they are no more that that; quaint beliefs, myths. I'm not prepared to tiptoe around the subject for fear of offending someone. That's not to say that I would go out of my way to offend someone about it, but that has a whole lot more to do with basic courtesy than with any special treatment that I afford to ancient fairy stories.

To treat religious belief differently from any other set of beliefs, to accord it some kind of mystical respect or make it taboo to make light of its iconography, its rituals or any of its other idiosyncrasies is silly, and to expect everyone else to do so as a matter of course is insulting.

Do I feel insulted when people wish me a 'Merry Christmas'? Absolutely not - that would be ungracious and, to my mind, rather pathetic. Just don't expect me to encourage kids to take part in nativity plays or join in the chorus of 'Hark, the Herald'.

Courtesy, but not servility.
:)
I don't disagree with you at all. In fact, I whole-heartedly agree with you.

BUT

We cannot forget that not everyone thinks the way you and I do, and as such we have to take the way other people think into consideration. Would it be nice if the whole world would just abandon religion? Absolutely. It's a huge waste of time, resources, equipment, and lives. We'd be far better off without it.

But that's not going to happen anytime soon.

I don't disagree with you at all. In fact, I whole-heartedly agree with you.

BUT

We cannot forget that not everyone thinks the way you and I do, and as such we have to take the way other people think into consideration
Yeah, sorry, I should have been clearer that I wasn't actually replying as any sort of rebuttal of your post. It was more that the line I quoted made a nice starting point for what I wanted to say :)

I just think we have to take care so that taking other people's thoughts into consideration doesn't simply leave us in exactly the same place as we've been for centuries.

that's not going to happen anytime soon.
Perhaps not, but I can't help feeling that this continued kowtowing to religious sensibilities is only going to prolong the process. Those who are committed to their religions should be able to weather the scepticism - hell, they can call it a test of faith if that's what floats their boats.

Yeah, sorry, I should have been clearer that I wasn't actually replying as any sort of rebuttal of your post. It was more that the line I quoted made a nice starting point for what I wanted to say :)
Oh, okay. Understandable. I've certainly done THAT more than a few times.

I just think we have to take care so that taking other people's thoughts into consideration doesn't simply leave us in exactly the same place as we've been for centuries.

Indeed.

Perhaps not, but I can't help feeling that this continued kowtowing to religious sensibilities is only going to prolong the process. Those who are committed to their religions should be able to weather the scepticism - hell, they can call it a test of faith if that's what floats their boats.

I agree with you again. What I mean is not that we kowtow to exactly what they want so much as we avoid trying to directly confront them or force them to change in some way that makes them feel threatened. As we all know, whenever you attack an idea like that, you just make it stronger.

Two Wars don't make a Wright.

Like I said earlier, if I don't KNOW I say "happy wintertime" since you know not everyone celebrates holidays.

However, if someone talks to me about their Christmas tree, and Christmas shopping and the children doing a Christmas program, and them making Christmas cookies, and I say "Merry Christmas" I get pretty pissed when they go off on this long ass tangent about how intolerant I am of their lack of religion.
And who does this? They don't speak for the anti-religious, they only speak for themselves... if even so much as that.

Perhaps though it might not be a response to you saying Merry Christmas so much as the social pressuring into respecting beliefs that could be considered illogical and divisive, and I would complain suppress embryonic stem cell research causing me to have to go through years more of type 1 diabetes. Perhaps they're responding with their own demands for sensitivity to try to show what it's like to be frustrated with religion.

I don't care what you call the season. Personally, I respect the religious beliefs of my friends. A good friend of mine is Jewish; I use "Happy holidays" when he and my other friends are all together. Otherwise I tend to use "Merry Christmas" since the majority of my friends do celebrate Christmas.

If I'm unsure with people I don't know well, I use "Happy holidays." I avoid stepping on as many toes as I can.

Emphasising the word 'Christ' in 'Christmas' doesn't suddenly give Christian connotations to all the pre-Christian parts of the festival time around the winter solstice.
Christmas has all kinds of "connotations" to Christians around the world.

Just because you associate the time with Jesus doesn't mean anyone else cares, nor should they.
To each their own I say, and I don't remember asking anyone to care about Christian beliefs.

It is a time of celebration with or without religious significance, the word 'Christmas' is far more wide-ranging and has expanded far outside its religious beginnings.
However, Christmas IS "a time of celebration with religious significance" to a multitude of people around the world. Whatever personal significance you to attach to Christmas is entirely up to you. :)

It is not, and has never been about the "War on Christmas." It's about the war on "The War on Christmas." It's about getting people, sitting comfortably at home watching Fox and eating cheese doodles all scared and confused and riled up because they're suddenly being bombarded with this magical "War on Christmas" that they need to fight tooth and nail against for Jesus and the American Way.

It's a sickening, self-serving marketing ploy to get people worked up over nothing.

In December, on the same day the Romans celebrated Sol Invictus?
Perhaps the Romans may have celebrated "Sol Invictus" on the same date but none of my Christian friends have ever mentioned that, and perhaps are even unaware of that fact, and/or have zero knowledge of "Sol Invictus". We celebrate Christmas.

Your god is a jealous and petty god.
Actually He is a loving and forgiving God. :)

He most certainly would mind getting confused with another deity, not to mention all the paganisms you've stolen into Christmas.
Did He tell you that He would mind? I am certainly not confusing Him with another god.

"Promoting goodwill and peace" - hahaha! That never gets old.
I sincerely hope not!! :)

And nothing fails quite like prayer (although, I hear explosive things happen when you rub your juju-bag), so basically you accomplish nothing and feel good about it. How noble.
How would you know if prayer "fails" or not, if you have never tried it?

I accomplish a lot with prayer, and yeah, it does make me feel good!! :)

Tell my wife... hello.:D

I'll sound the beige alert.

Courtesy, but not servility.
:)
Ooooh .... i like you. *bows*

Christmahanukwanziking Day?

(That's Christmas, Hannukah, Kwanzikah & Boxing Day, all wrapped up in one package)

It's beginning to sound a lot like Limbaugh... :D

C'mon, finish the lyric!
The only one i've got about him right now is "I'm a Nazi"!

It is not, and has never been about the "War on Christmas." It's about the war on "The War on Christmas." It's about getting people, sitting comfortably at home watching Fox and eating cheese doodles all scared and confused and riled up because they're suddenly being bombarded with this magical "War on Christmas" that they need to fight tooth and nail against for Jesus and the American Way.

It's a sickening, self-serving marketing ploy to get people worked up over nothing.

It's beginning to sound a lot like Limbaugh... :D

Christmas has all kinds of "connotations" to Christians around the world.

Yes, but they are mostly borrowed and altered from previous non-Christian ideas, and are more entrenched in culture as traditional rather than religious. I'm just saying religion does not have a monopoly on the season i.e. this war on christmas is entirely silly, especially from a religious sense.

To each their own I say, and I don't remember asking anyone to care about Christian beliefs.

You seemed to be arguing that Christmas was only about Christian beliefs.

However, Christmas IS "a time of celebration with religious significance" to a multitude of people around the world. Whatever personal significance you to attach to Christmas is entirely up to you. :)

Same as above.

I don't really care what people call the season nor how they celebrate it, it is just a festival season of gift-giving and family reunion based around the winter solstice.

Emphasising the word 'Christ' in 'Christmas' doesn't suddenly give Christian connotations to all the pre-Christian parts of the festival time around the winter solstice. Just because you associate the time with Jesus doesn't mean anyone else cares, nor should they. It is a time of celebration with or without religious significance, the word 'Christmas' is far more wide-ranging and has expanded far outside its religious beginnings.
Yeah, I was pretty much going to say the same.

You can put "Christ" in bold all you want, but the fact remains that every single "Christmas" element that was cited can be 100% secular, and several of them are non-Christian in origin. It's remarkably dishonest for Christians to try to rewrite history and claim that these symbols were originally their own. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I thought their God looked on lying as some kind of...what do you call it..."sin"?

Look, Canuck, the symbols that the average Western Christian will most strongly associate with Christmas are NOT Christian in origin. Ask the average American kid to name things that are associated with Christmas, and they'll give you a list of secular characters and secular decorations long before it occurs to them to mention Jesus.

Christmas originally began as an attempt to bring a Christian celebration and a Pagan one together, so that people of different beliefs could have a shared winter festival. When you deny that Christmas is a holiday built from multiple religious and cultural traditions, you're simply denying historical fact. You're also missing out on the real meaning of the holiday, which is sad, because it's actually kind of a nice meaning.

Actually He is a loving and forgiving God. :)
A loving and forgiving god who if you so much as speak against him/her, he/she will send you to a place where you will be tortured forever?

How would you know if prayer "fails" or not, if you have never tried it?
Oh, and what is your basis for claiming that the person you talked to has "never tried it"?

I accomplish a lot with prayer
What makes you think it actually accomplishes anything and isn't just an old superstition?

CanuckHeaven, watch this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

Oh, and what is your basis for claiming that the person you talked to has "never tried it"?
It's called the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

No True Scotsman would wear red, so if somebody is wearing red then they can't possibly be a Scotsman. And such like that.

Likewise, nobody who has tried prayer will say it doesn't work, so anybody who says prayer doesn't work must not have tried it.

Yeah, I was pretty much going to say the same.

You can put "Christ" in bold all you want, but the fact remains that every single "Christmas" element that was cited can be 100% secular, and several of them are non-Christian in origin.

then what's the problem with wishing people Merry Christmas?

A loving and forgiving god who if you so much as speak against him/her, he/she will send you to a place where you will be tortured forever?
And why would I want to blaspheme our Creator?

Oh, and what is your basis for claiming that the person you talked to has "never tried it"?
The question was based on an assumption that atheists do not pray to any diety??? Forgive me if I am wrong.

What makes you think it actually accomplishes anything and isn't just an old superstition?
Because I believe in prayer and in miracles.

then what's the problem with wishing people Merry Christmas?
Smunk, you've got me baffled. You keep harping on this, as if I (or others in this thread) have been claiming that it's some kind of oppression to wish a Merry Christmas to people who celebrate Christmas. What gives?

So far, your only explanation is that you talked to somebody else--not in this thread--and they had some kind of beef with it. Well, why don't you just ask them what their problem is? They aren't me, I'm not them, and it seems a bit silly to keep asking ME to explain the behavior of somebody who obviously isn't on the same page that I am.

The question was based on an assumption that atheists do not pray to any diety??? Forgive me if I am wrong.
.

I started out religious and now i'm atheist

So I have prayed in the past but don't now. Simple isn't it

I'm an agnostic.

If you wish me a Merry Christmas, I'll wish you a Merry Christmas.

Ditto Kwanzaa, Hannukah, Winter Solstice, Holidays, etc.

If I see a Creche on public property, I'll look at it, if it's artistically unappealing, I'll say so. If it's aesthetically pleasing, I'll say so.

I will have an Xmas tree in my house. If I had a menorah, I'd set it up, too.

I enjoy holidays, I don't care whose and I'm not offended if others enjoy and observe them, too.

What I find surprising is not that certain Christian groups are narrow-minded and intolerant, but that atheists are equally narrow-minded and intolerant.

So, will everyone who gets upset about other people's lives, opinions (however ill- or well- founded), observances, faith or lack thereof, please grow up and get lives!?

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I thought their God looked on lying as some kind of...what do you call it..."sin"?
Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against us. BTW, I don't see the celebration of Christmas as a "lie".

Look, Canuck, the symbols that the average Western Christian will most strongly associate with Christmas are NOT Christian in origin. Ask the average American kid to name things that are associated with Christmas, and they'll give you a list of secular characters and secular decorations long before it occurs to them to mention Jesus.
Not this "average Christian". From an early age, I knew about the meaning of Christmas, from the angel on top of the tree to the Christmas carols such as "Away in a Manger", to movies such as "It's a Wonderful Life".

You're also missing out on the real meaning of the holiday, which is sad, because it's actually kind of a nice meaning.
Actually, it is you that is missing out on the true meaning of Christmas, due to your disbelief in Christ our Lord. However, I do hope that you continue to celebrate Christmas and perhaps the spirit of the season will give you a whole new attitude and outlook on life. :)

then what's the problem with wishing people Merry Christmas?

There isn't. It's a made up, bullshit controversy to rally the troops and circle the wagons. It doesn't exist except in the minds of the people who make up more than 80% of the population and yet pretend to be oppressed like an athlete flopping for the ref when there isn't a player nearby. It's a figment. Let it go.

Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against us. BTW, I don't see the celebration of Christmas as a "lie".

I never said it was. Please read more carefully.


Not this "average Christian". From an early age, I knew about the meaning of Christmas, from the angel on top of the tree to the Christmas carols such as "Away in a Manger", to movies such as "It's a Wonderful Life".

Which does nothing to contradict my point.


Actually, it is you that is missing out on the true meaning of Christmas, due to your disbelief in Christ our Lord. However, I do hope that you continue to celebrate Christmas and perhaps the spirit of the season will give you a whole new attitude and outlook on life. :)
What do you think your patronizing, rude behavior will accomplish?

Do you really believe that this behavior will make me more likely to embrace Christ? If I specifically tell you that, in fact, it makes me even more confident that I have made the right choice in rejecting your belief system, will that cause you to change your behavior?

Are you actually concerned with helping people reach salvation and joy through Christ, or are your motives simply selfish?

I'm an agnostic.

If you wish me a Merry Christmas, I'll wish you a Merry Christmas.

Ditto Kwanzaa, Hannukah, Winter Solstice, Holidays, etc.

If I see a Creche on public property, I'll look at it, if it's artistically unappealing, I'll say so. If it's aesthetically pleasing, I'll say so.

I will have an Xmas tree in my house. If I had a menorah, I'd set it up, too.

I enjoy holidays, I don't care whose and I'm not offended if others enjoy and observe them, too.

You're probably in the majority. Most people, save those that are paid to complain (I'm looking at you, O'Reilly...), are too busy, you know, celebrating Christmas to actually care to much about what others are doing.

What I find surprising is not that certain Christian groups are narrow-minded and intolerant, but that atheists are equally narrow-minded and intolerant.

So, will everyone who gets upset about other people's lives, opinions (however ill- or well- founded), observances, faith or lack thereof, please grow up and get lives!?

But, but, then what will we use to make ourselves feel supierior to the Athiechristiamuslijews?

I never said it was. Please read more carefully.
I do believe that I read correctly and that my response was appropriate.

Which does nothing to contradict my point.
You are splitting hairs based on your opinion. I don't want to play.

What do you think your patronizing, rude behavior will accomplish?
How is my behaviour "patronizing, and rude"?

Do you really believe that this behavior will make me more likely to embrace Christ? If I specifically tell you that, in fact, it makes me even more confident that I have made the right choice in rejecting your belief system, will that cause you to change your behavior?
My behaviour is making you "more confident" that you have "made the right choice in rejecting my belief system"? If I change my behaviour, you will be less "confident" that you have "made the right choice in rejecting my belief system"?

Are you actually concerned with helping people reach salvation and joy through Christ,
Of course.

or are your motives simply selfish?
Why would you make such an assumption?

what's even more funny is the Christmas tree decorating, present buying, carol singing atheists who bitch about someone saying "Merry Christmas" because "not everyone is Christian and not everyone celebrates Christmas"

I am not a christian, and until I married one did not celebrate the holiday. Now I at least tolerate it because it is an important part of my wifes family traditions. Meh.

Edit: Oh, and I don't object to people offering me good wishes in any form. Just don't be offended if I reply with a "Happy Holiday" or "Merry Solstice"

Do as I do and call the Joy Luck Club for delivery on December 25th.