NationStates Jolt Archive

In two weeks, Venezuela could be starting an extraordinary experiment in centralized socialism fueled by oil. By law, the workday would be cut to six hours. Street vendors, housewives and maids would have state-mandated pensions. And President Hugo Chávez would have significantly enhanced powers and be eligible for re-election for the rest of his life.

A new constitution, expected to be approved by referendum Dec. 2, is both bolstering Chávez's popularity among people who will benefit and stirring contempt from economists who declare it demagoguery. Signaling new instability here, dissent is also emerging from among his former lieutenants, some of whom say the president is carrying out a populist coup.

[...] But this is an upheaval that would be carried out with the approval of the voters. While polls in Venezuela are often tainted by partisanship, they suggest the referendum could be Chávez's closest electoral test since his presidency began in 1999, but one he is still likely to win.

"We are witnessing a seizure and redirection of power through legitimate means," said Alberto Barrera Tyszka, co-author of a best-selling biography of Chávez. "This is not a dictatorship but something more complex: the tyranny of popularity."

[...] Lacking here, for instance, is the authoritarianism one might expect in a country where billboards promoting Chávez have proliferated in the last year.

Looming above the Centro San Ignacio, this city's glitziest shopping mall, is one of Chávez hugging a child while he explains the "motors" of his revolution. Others show him kissing old women, decorating graduates of the military university and embracing an ally, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran.

[...] Other measures in the project are considered progressive by both critics of Chávez and those in his political base, which includes leftist military officials, academics, civil servants and a large portion of the urban and rural poor.

The voting age in this demographically young country, for instance, would be lowered to 16 from 18. Discrimination based on sexual orientation would be prohibited. Many of the items are vaguely worded, however, like one giving the president the power to create "communal cities."

"Clearly there are positive aspects to the reform, but the government has committed a political error by trying to rush it to voters without enough discussion," said Edgardo Lander, a sociologist at the Central University of Venezuela who is generally sympathetic to Chávez. "The opposition can argue this is illegitimate if it is approved by a low margin."


(link (http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/11/16/america/venez.php))

This thread for a discussion in the build-up to the referendum, and reactions to its results.

The only opposition are tiny fringe far-right elements afraid to loose the fortunes they have horded by raping and exploiting the country, most of the opposition groups are funded by the US state department and the treasonous media who support military coups and dictatorships. Chavez is redistributing the wealth equally and the transnationals will resist, which is why Chavez must crush them and their resolve by any means necessary.

First real steps to a proper dictatorship. Censorship of all types of the media in 'states of emergency', making it harder for the general public to get a vote of no confidence called, and having a leader in charge as president for as long as they are voted in, as opposed to most other leaders which will have shorter terms?

Great... that and lowering the voting age to get more socialist party votes (because let's be honest, most 16 year olds, including myself at the time, are very much left oriented). Nice.

First real steps to a proper dictatorship. Censorship of all types of the media in 'states of emergency', making it harder for the general public to get a vote of no confidence called, and having a leader in charge as president for as long as they are voted in, as opposed to most other leaders which will have shorter terms?

Great... that and lowering the voting age to get more socialist party votes (because let's be honest, most 16 year olds, including myself at the time, are very much left oriented). Nice.
The idea that people get more conservative as they get older is ridiculous and totally speculative. You're argument boils basically down to '16 yr olds shouldn't be able to vote because they are all socialists!'

You seem to also ignoring new things in this plebiscite like shorter working hours, better conditions, popular ownership of enterprise and property, grassroots democracy etc.

It is going to be interesting. They'll all pass and then they will be on the path to dictatorship.

I think the sexual orientation equality part will lead to some interesting slogans from fundies at the very least

Great... that and lowering the voting age to get more socialist party votes (because let's be honest, most 16 year olds, including myself at the time, are very much left oriented). Nice.

I don't think that was really why that was passed myself, though I am suspect that it may of been a reason of how it got so far

You seem to also ignoring new things in this plebiscite like shorter working hours, better conditions, popular ownership of enterprise and property, grassroots democracy etc.

If Chavez cares so much about improving the lives of the poor, why is he making a 6 hour workday conditional on him being granted far-reaching executve powers?

I'm sure it will all work out splendidly and the people of Venezuela are on the brink of entering a utopian paradise.

You know, I loathe Chavez and his economic views, but what he is doing is totally brilliant....He knows what he has to do to gain power and for that I admire his strategy. His goal is absolute power but knows he has to move to make himself look as popular as possible, thus he can say to his opponents: "but look! I am desired by the local populace, thus I am legit."

If Chavez cares so much about improving the lives of the poor, why is he making a 6 hour workday conditional on him being granted far-reaching executve powers?

so they can earn more for less work? so they can spend more time at home/other job?

The fact that posters and images of Chavez are so omnipresent is actually rather disturbing. He's doing his damnedest to associate himself and only himself with these changes to law and society, regardless of the fact that there are a lot more people involved than him alone.

If Chavez cares so much about improving the lives of the poor, why is he making a 6 hour workday conditional on him being granted far-reaching executve powers?

Isn't that obvious? It's so he can stay in power indefinitely and therefore socialism can be a permanent process in Venezuela, yes it seems dictatorial and all you whine about it, but in reality it's practical - Venezuelan politics can be so unstable and governments so short-lived that he needs to consolidate the power of the USP so that it's leftist reforms can be implemented fully and indefinitely. Remember that Venezuela isn't the USA my friend, if Chavez doesn't consolidate his power then the opposition will get military and foreign support and overthrow socialism in Venezuela, they have done it before with Chavez and will do it again.

The opposition refuses to participate in elections and the parliament, and refuses to rule out another military coup or coup in general, the US state department continues to fund them, what do you expect Chavez to do? Or more importantly, what would you do? Chavez has no choice, and literally the Bolivarian Revolution stands upon the end of a knife, he must destroy the opposition or it will end socialism, it's that simple. And in that case I wouldn't care if they threw every all Miami-kulak, paid-up thug, rich oligarch and traitor up against the wall... It's class warfare friend, never forget that.

The omnipresent posters and images of Chavez are actually rather disturbing.

black marker pens must be making a killing :)

I can't say I'm convinced. There are some measures I'm sympathetic to, but I don't want to see any further increase in executive power. Venezuela isn't like France, where an unlimited term Presidency is checked by a Parliament and Prime Minister reliant on it, and has a democratic political culture without a hegemonic dominant political faction. I especially don't like the way that increasing the powers of the President is bundled with popular left wing initatives and get the feeling that the popularity of the latter is being used to push through the former. I get the feeling that Venezuela might be moving towards a Singapore style one party 'democracy'.

But that's just speculation. I just smell a rat, that's all.

The idea that people get more conservative as they get older is ridiculous and totally speculative. You're argument boils basically down to '16 yr olds shouldn't be able to vote because they are all socialists!'


But 16 year olds shouldn't be able to vote, whether socialist or not, because they are far too likely to be bandwagon jumping idiots. Yes adults tend to be like that too, but not as much as 16 year olds. Also, adults tend to be independent, working and having to look after themselves. It's their needs that need to be catered too the most.

Isn't that obvious? It's so he can stay in power indefinitely and therefore socialism can be a permanent process in Venezuela, yes it seems dictatorial and all you whine about it, but in reality it's practical - Venezuelan politics can be so unstable and governments so short-lived that he needs to consolidate the power of the USP so that it's leftist reforms can be implemented fully and indefinitely.

I'm going to Godwin myself out of existence here but, that is almost exactly what Hitler said.


Remember that Venezuela isn't the USA my friend, if Chavez doesn't consolidate his power then the opposition will get military and foreign support and overthrow socialism in Venezuela, they have done it before with Chavez and will do it again.


Good. Chavez should go. He is a terrible, terrible person.


The opposition refuses to participate in elections and the parliament, and refuses to rule out another military coup or coup in general, the US state department continues to fund them, what do you expect Chavez to do?

True, Chavez is that power hungry that he will do whatever it takes.

The idea that people get more conservative as they get older is ridiculous and totally speculative.
You really think that?

Look at the (Great British) National Union of Students. It's a complete leftie circlejerk. If you're a member of the Young Conservatives and make it at all plain that you are when you're up at the podium, you will quite actually get shouted off and booed by the ironically named Respect party.

This completely doesn't represent mainstream British politics, in which about 35 or so percent of people are conservatives, another 40% 'New Labour', i.e. "conservative but like the NHS more" and the rest mostly being either Lib Dem, which are, for now, vaguely left wing, or voting for parties such as the BNP or UKIP, the former being the Extremely Racist Fascist Party of Great Britain in all but name, and UKIP being the conservatives, but more so.

Not really much socialist representation left, and the only reason that the unions support New Labour is because they were once a left-wing party.
You're argument boils basically down to '16 yr olds shouldn't be able to vote because they are all socialists!'
No, it doesn't.

It wasn't really an argument, it was more pointing out that 16 year olds are more likely to vote for socialists like Chavez than anyone else.

I don't really mind 16 year olds voting, I can just tell that it's going to lead to more votes for Chavez and less to everyone else.
You seem to also ignoring new things in this plebiscite like shorter working hours, better conditions
Aye. The 6 hour working day?

Uttely and completely unfeasible.
popular ownership of enterprise and property
Great.

"The state owns everything, and can take it at will, plebs"

Fantastic.
grassroots democracy etc.
Not really. It's increasing the power of the president and reducing the power of locally elected officials, as well as making it harder to get rid of a bad president. Any way you can explain that to me as more grassroots democracy?

Look at the (Great British) National Union of Students. It's a complete leftie circlejerk. If you're a member of the Young Conservatives and make it at all plain that you are when you're up at the podium, you will quite actually get shouted off and booed by the ironically named Respect party.
Yeah, but Respect doesn't exactly represent every student who isn't a Young Conservative. Or the NUS for that matter.

I can't say I'm convinced. There are some measures I'm sympathetic to, but I don't want to see any further increase in executive power. Venezuela isn't like France, where an unlimited term Presidency is checked by a Parliament and Prime Minister reliant on it, and has a democratic political culture without a hegemonic dominant political faction. I especially don't like the way that increasing the powers of the President is bundled with popular left wing initatives and get the feeling that the popularity of the latter is being used to push through the former. I get the feeling that Venezuela might be moving towards a Singapore style one party 'democracy'.

But that's just speculation. I just smell a rat, that's all.
I'd say Singapore is more an Authoritarian free-market state...where as Venzeuala is moving towards an Authoritarian socialist state...

But 16 year olds shouldn't be able to vote, whether socialist or not, because they are far too likely to be bandwagon jumping idiots. Yes adults tend to be like that too, but not as much as 16 year olds. Also, adults tend to be independent, working and having to look after themselves. It's their needs that need to be catered too the most.
No you're argument still is basically that you dislike the idealism of youth.

so they can earn more for less work?
Or so that they earn less for less work, capping off the current inflation crisis.
so they can spend more time at home/other job?
At home, where they can be cheerily propagandised. Hurrah.

All this whinging and whining about Chavez basically comes down to one thing: The extreme Right hate socialism and the 'facts' may as well just fit in with their argument.

I'd say Singapore is more an Authoritarian free-market state...where as Venzeuala is moving towards an Authoritarian socialist state...
Well, my point was more about democracy than economics.

Well, he's certainly doing some things right, at least, such as the equality for other sexualities. Still...I'm worried. Unlike Andaras Eureka I'm not exactly thrilled at the idea of Venezuela possibly turning into a dictatorship. (And why would you approve of sixteen year olds voting anyway? Aren't you an authoritarian who believes NO ONE should have a say in their government? Shouldn't you be opposed to it?)

Yeah, but Respect doesn't exactly represent every student who isn't a Young Conservative. Or the NUS for that matter.
You ever been to Nat. Conf.?

It's about 40% Respect, most of the rest being New Labour or "Organised Independents".

I really like the going-out-drinking-in-Blackpool element, but on the other hand, the level of 'debate' that goes on inside the conference hall itself is pretty poor, to be quite honest.

"I, *insert name* defer to Owen Rees"

"Owen Rees here - Conference, I URGE YOU to vote for this motion - it's clear that, unless we have eight times as many people at conference as we used to, THE BNP WILL WIN! THE FINANCES OF THE MATTER ARE UNIMPORTANT, AFTER ALL!"

*Motion passes*



Anyway, bit irrelevant to the action topic, but meh.

And in that case I wouldn't care if they threw every all Miami-kulak, paid-up thug, rich oligarch and traitor up against the wall...

Fortunately, Chavez is strongly opposed to the death penalty, so that's not going to happen.

All this whinging and whining about Chavez basically comes down to one thing: The extreme Right hate socialism and the 'facts' may as well just fit in with their argument.
... that's just about the worst 'argument' you've ever tried. Ever.

Respect are great, George Galloway has to be the greatest British MP ever.

snipI can't say I've been to national conference, but Sheffield doesn't send half Respect delegates, it doesn't have that kind of strength here. Of course, you can't extrapolate that on to everywhere, but my experience doesn't make students all raving loonies. Of course, I can understand why Respect would be strong in the NUS, but it's not because they're popular. They're the only people that care, because it makes them feel important, and everybody else doesn't really bother.

Out of interest, have you gone full circle and been under the Young Conservative banner? You'll be standing under the "The Blessed Chris Party" yet.:p

Chavez has no choice, and literally the Bolivarian Revolution stands upon the end of a knife, he must destroy the opposition or it will end socialism, it's that simple.
He must be pretty weak to allow the pretty much fringe right wing destroy socialism in Venezuela...
And in that case I wouldn't care if they threw every all Miami-kulak
I was unaware that Miami had any slightly-richer-than-most farmers living there, to be quite honest.
It's class warfare friend, never forget that.
What do your parents do for a living?

Respect are great, George Galloway has to be the greatest British MP ever.
Yeah. I'm glad he has one of the worst absence records of all MPs, because I don't want this tosspot actually voting, thank you very much.

black marker pens must be making a killing :)

If I were there, they certainly would be.

No you're argument still is basically that you dislike the idealism of youth.

Yes, very much so. Though I prefer the term naievity to idealism. And don't forget, I'm still technically in my youth as well.

Respect are great
They split the British left and have a party membership of about 3400, yet claim that they're in the right in every issue around socialism. Eugh.
George Galloway has to be the greatest British MP ever.
Pretty brave of him to unseat one of the very few black women MPs by exploiting the latent ethnic tensions in Bethnal Green. Nice one there...

No you're argument still is basically that you dislike the idealism of youth.

Either that or Chavez will be able to bring two years worth of individuals who have been "educated" under his regime to the polls before the next Presidential election.

Knowing his government's penchant for self-aggrandizing propaganda, I can't see the likelihood that independent thought is being encouraged by his policies.

There is a very substantial reason why despots around the world have focused on constructing the youth around their ideology. The Maoist Cultural Revolution, the Hitler Jugend, the Young Pioneers of the USSR, these were all programs designed around constructing the youth in the image of the leader and the party. Constructing good little workers and soldiers is so key, that without such programs and campaigns a totalitarian regime cannot last long.

For example, why the hell do you think I voted for Bush in 2004? I was eighteen, it was my first election, and I believed what he said, much to the negative result for my country. Take me to the exact same election now, merely three years later, and I likely vote an entirely different ticket.

He must be pretty weak to allow the pretty much fringe right wing destroy socialism in Venezuela...
Exactly. If these tiny almost nonexistant fringes are the only thing that is threatening Venezuela, you'd think they'd be basically a non-issue.
I was unaware that Miami had any slightly-richer-than-most farmers living there, to be quite honest.
I didn't quite understand what he meat there. Isn't that reserved for anti-communist Cubans living in Miami? I mean sure, we have alot of Venezulans here in Florida but I don't think they are anything like our Miami Cuban community.....?
What do your parents do for a living?
Probably general middle-class parents with a father who's a bit authoritarian which causes AP to become a rebel and think of himself as a pilgrim in an unholy land. Tell me AP, warm, warmer, hot? Where am I?
Well, my point was more about democracy than economics.
Ah..then nevermind.

Ah..then nevermind.
Aww, I feel as if I've snubbed you now.

I cen't really think of another example that would also provide an economic analogy. Mexico under the IRP is the closest, but still isn't right.

I can't say I've been to national conference
It's quite a laugh, if a bit grinding by the third day.
but Sheffield doesn't send half Respect delegates, it doesn't have that kind of strength here. Of course, you can't extrapolate that on to everywhere, but my experience doesn't make students all raving loonies. Of course, I can understand why Respect would be strong in the NUS, but it's not because they're popular. They're the only people that care, because it makes them feel important, and everybody else doesn't really bother.
That's quite a good analysis of it, although it has to be said that they've usually got a very strong contingient from certain universities, or not much at all. But there you go.
Out of interest, have you gone full circle and been under the Young Conservative banner? You'll be standing under the "The Blessed Chris Party" yet.:p
Hell no. I'm a socialist, I'm just a bit of a cynic about... erm... everything, and Respect piss me off due to their extremely stupid and dogmatic delegates to Nat. Conf., as well as their quite frankly hilarious hatred of the 'bourgeoisie', seeing as most of them do nothing but flash their cash when they get down to the pubs. Eugh.

And don't try to and link me to The Blessed Chris in terms of politics - I'm nothing like as racist as he is, even if we agree on a few issues ;)

Exactly. If these tiny almost nonexistant fringes are the only thing that is threatening Venezuela, you'd think they'd be basically a non-issue.
Quite.
I didn't quite understand what he meat there. Isn't that reserved for anti-communist Cubans living in Miami? I mean sure, we have alot of Venezulans here in Florida but I don't think they are anything like our Miami Cuban community.....?
He meant "I agree with Stalin's decision to generally murder the Kulaks, and the Venezuelans in Florida are just as bad, hint hint", from his previous posting history.

Incidentally, AP, don't get banned for this again. It would be pretty tragic.

Quite.

He meant "I agree with Stalin's decision to generally murder the Kulaks, and the Venezuelans in Florida are just as bad, hint hint", from his previous posting history.

Incidentally, AP, don't get banned for this again. It would be pretty tragic.

So...he supports masss murder? Nice going eurika, you sure convinced me your right.

It's quite a laugh, if a bit grinding by the third day.
Sounds like an extra opportunity for beer, really.

That's quite a good analysis of it, although it has to be said that they've usually got a very strong contingient from certain universities, or not much at all. But there you go.
It would be interesting to know which. Sheffield doesn't seem particulary political at all really, though. The only real organised party group I've managed to come accross is the Conservatives, and a really tiny Socialist party group.

Hell no. I'm a socialist, I'm just a bit of a cynic about... erm... everything, and Respect piss me off due to their extremely stupid and dogmatic delegates to Nat. Conf., as well as their quite frankly hilarious hatred of the 'bourgeoisie', seeing as most of them do nothing but flash their cash when they get down to the pubs. Eugh.
*Phew*

I know what you mean though. Anything vaguely centre left seems to quickly descend into either a champagne socialist yuck-fest or foaming at the mouth kind of thing at the student level. And arguably in 'real' politics, too. At debating society, though, there is kind of a Young Conservative faction (I've noticed) and a generally left of centre opposition that isn't focused on any of the political societies. Much more sensible.:)

And don't try to and link me to The Blessed Chris in terms of politics - I'm nothing like as racist as he is, even if we agree on a few issues ;)
You know I was being sarcastic with the whole "you get more right wing as you get older" thing.

*Wonders what Chris might be like in 60 years' time.*

Pretty brave of him to unseat one of the very few black women MPs by exploiting the latent ethnic tensions in Bethnal Green. Nice one there...

Not that I'd normally jump up to support Galloway, but as I recall he played mostly on the fact that she was an unrepentent supporter of the invasion of Iraq. Which would have cost her a lot of votes in any case.

Sounds like an extra opportunity for beer, really.
At low, low prices with a delegate wristband :)
It would be interesting to know which.
Quite a lot of the western industrial towns, and a few of the more pretentious southern universities, for some reason.
Sheffield doesn't seem particulary political at all really, though. The only real organised party group I've managed to come accross is the Conservatives, and a really tiny Socialist party group.
The Sheffield delegates were solid last year indeed. Tell your union to keep it up :p
Anything vaguely centre left seems to quickly descend into either a champagne socialist yuck-fest
As a champagne socialist, (albeit without Marxist pretences, nor indeed any kind of stupid utopian idealism) I disparage your use of 'yuck-fest' :p
or foaming at the mouth kind of thing.
Quite. I tend to turn of the instant that "bourgeois(ie)", "proletariat", "capitalist", "imperialism" or "people's" are used. Gah, buzzwords, I hate them so.
At debating society, though, there is kind of a Young Conservative faction (I've noticed) and a generally left of centre opposition that isn't focused on any of the political societies. Much more sensible.:)
Hurrah, sounds good.
You know I was being sarcastic with the whole "you get more right wing as you get older" thing.

*Wonders what Chris might be like in 60 years' time.*
A communist, when he realises that love and respect are the best way to get into heaven :p

Quite.
Yet at the same time he talks about how there is some huge threat to Venezuela that somehow demands Chavez's absolute authority to defend the country against....hypocrisy...I think so?
He meant "I agree with Stalin's decision to generally murder the Kulaks, and the Venezuelans in Florida are just as bad, hint hint", from his previous posting history.
Great.:rolleyes: One of my friends is an immigrant from Venezuala who (with her family) fled away from Chavez's regime. I love hearing the truth about that country from her and them comparing it to the bullshit AP is spewing.

Aww, I feel as if I've snubbed you now.

I cen't really think of another example that would also provide an economic analogy. Mexico under the IRP is the closest, but still isn't right.
No I understand what you were saying, I just missed that you were making an authoritarian comparison as opposed to a national comparison. You are somewhat right...but personally I'd compare it to Hitler's rise to power. He wanted to make it seem like he was a defender of the people, with their love and interest at heart, thus didn't need democracy because he was representing them, as he was the people. Same with Castro...to be honest.

Hell no. I'm a socialist, I'm just a bit of a cynic about... erm... everything, and Respect piss me off due to their extremely stupid and dogmatic delegates to Nat. Conf., as well as their quite frankly hilarious hatred of the 'bourgeoisie', seeing as most of them do nothing but flash their cash when they get down to the pubs. Eugh.

And don't try to and link me to The Blessed Chris in terms of politics - I'm nothing like as racist as he is, even if we agree on a few issues ;)
I'm not saying this applies to you....but one could be racist and socialist at the same time...they're called national socialists. ;)

I'm not saying this applies to you....but one could be racist and socialist at the same time...they're called national socialists. ;)
Ah, brownshirts in a red uniform. They're the kind of people that piss me off the most, to be honest.

"Woo, socialism for those allowed to stay - darkies and immigrants, however, you can fuck off"
Not that I'd normally jump up to support Galloway, but as I recall he played mostly on the fact that she was an unrepentent supporter of the invasion of Iraq. Which would have cost her a lot of votes in any case.
He did indeed make a lot of her support for Iraq, however he also played the "I'm white" card to an extent.

Isn't that obvious? It's so he can stay in power indefinitely and therefore socialism can be a permanent process in Venezuela, yes it seems dictatorial and all you whine about it, but in reality it's practical - Venezuelan politics can be so unstable and governments so short-lived that he needs to consolidate the power of the USP so that it's leftist reforms can be implemented fully and indefinitely. Remember that Venezuela isn't the USA my friend, if Chavez doesn't consolidate his power then the opposition will get military and foreign support and overthrow socialism in Venezuela, they have done it before with Chavez and will do it again.

The opposition refuses to participate in elections and the parliament, and refuses to rule out another military coup or coup in general, the US state department continues to fund them, what do you expect Chavez to do? Or more importantly, what would you do? Chavez has no choice, and literally the Bolivarian Revolution stands upon the end of a knife, he must destroy the opposition or it will end socialism, it's that simple. And in that case I wouldn't care if they threw every all Miami-kulak, paid-up thug, rich oligarch and traitor up against the wall... It's class warfare friend, never forget that.

This is incredibly short sighted though. Chavez won't be president forever - eventually he will have to be replaced by someone. There's no guarantee that his replacement will be as socialist as he is - what happens if he is succeeded by an exceptionally corrupt president who uses the state to further his personal needs rather than the needs of the people? Thanks to the reforms Chavez is about to create removing such a person from power would be very difficult.

This is incredibly short sighted though. Chavez won't be president forever - eventually he will have to be replaced by someone. There's no guarantee that his replacement will be as socialist as he is - what happens if he is succeeded by an exceptionally corrupt president who uses the state to further his personal needs rather than the needs of the people? Thanks to the reforms Chavez is about to create removing such a person from power would be very difficult.

He'll be in for life I would be willing to bet, and in that time I am sure in that time he will be able to groom a good line of successors, all being reliable and consistent socialists.

Either that or Chavez will be able to bring two years worth of individuals who have been "educated" under his regime to the polls before the next Presidential election.

Knowing his government's penchant for self-aggrandizing propaganda, I can't see the likelihood that independent thought is being encouraged by his policies.

There is a very substantial reason why despots around the world have focused on constructing the youth around their ideology. The Maoist Cultural Revolution, the Hitler Jugend, the Young Pioneers of the USSR, these were all programs designed around constructing the youth in the image of the leader and the party. Constructing good little workers and soldiers is so key, that without such programs and campaigns a totalitarian regime cannot last long.

For example, why the hell do you think I voted for Bush in 2004? I was eighteen, it was my first election, and I believed what he said, much to the negative result for my country. Take me to the exact same election now, merely three years later, and I likely vote an entirely different ticket.
It's not my fault you are stupid.

He'll be in for life I would be willing to bet, and in that time I am sure in that time he will be able to groom a good line of successors, all being reliable and consistent socialists.

You can't predict the future though. Lenin didn't want Stalin to succeed him but his rapid decline in health and Stalin's ambition and political talents brought him to power. As there is no guarantee that Chavez can ensure an appropriate successor, I'd rather not take the risk.

It's not my fault you are stupid.

He's stupid? At least his arguments are sounder than yours.

The only opposition are tiny fringe far-right elements afraid to loose the fortunes they have horded by raping and exploiting the country, most of the opposition groups are funded by the US state department and the treasonous media who support military coups and dictatorships. Chavez is redistributing the wealth equally and the transnationals will resist, which is why Chavez must crush them and their resolve by any means necessary.

says the ass who doesnt live in venezuela and has no idea what is actualyl going on, he isnt just taking from the rich and making them middle class and raising the poor to middle class he has taken fro middle class and made them poor insecurity in the country has raised atleast 500% things you've never heard off before rapes during broad daylight organ robbery which hadnt been present till 2003 (suspiciously all this has happened under chavez) the oil reserves are being wasted by being given away to a country like cuba which can provide nothing beneficial from the alliance . I belive the only way to solve the problems currently going on is to :sniper: that dumb bag of monkey shit and place a military regime in place atleast until thinks settle down and later hold elections. Might be an extreme solution but its the quickest and most effective

I'm going to Godwin myself out of existence here but, that is almost exactly what Hitler said.



Good. Chavez should go. He is a terrible, terrible person.



True, Chavez is that power hungry that he will do whatever it takes.

DONT EVER COMPARE CHAVEZ WITH HITLER THAT IS FREAKING BLASPHEMY.Hitler altough he commited mass genocide made progress for germany raised the national curreny's value uped the infrastructure and brought jobs to millions of germans altough he later led germany into a war (which still left it slightly better than what it was after WWI). Lowered crime rate in germany.

Chavez has made the venezuelan currency less than a 15th of what it used to be. Destroyed the unity of the people. Tried stablishing a communist regime. Made dangerous and poorly made infrastructure. Given free petroleum to other countries making it much harder for venezuela to progress. he redefined the perfect worknig PDVSA into a bunch of his lackies that barely know which way to point the gas hose in a gas station.Crime rate has climber upwards 500%

those are the facts Chavez is worst than hitler to his own country. Chavez has made venezuela into a deep pond of shi

says the ass who doesnt live in venezuela and has no idea what is actualyl going on, he isnt just taking from the rich and making them middle class and raising the poor to middle class he has taken fro middle class and made them poor insecurity in the country has raised atleast 500% things you've never heard off before rapes during broad daylight organ robbery which hadnt been present till 2003 (suspiciously all this has happened under chavez) the oil reserves are being wasted by being given away to a country like cuba which can provide nothing beneficial from the alliance . I belive the only way to solve the problems currently going on is to :sniper: that dumb bag of monkey shit and place a military regime in place atleast until thinks settle down and later hold elections. Might be an extreme solution but its the quickest and most effective
Eres de Venezuela? Donde vives?

When the oil runs out...............

When the oil runs out...............

1600+ billion barrels in reserve my friend, the whole world (including Saudi) will run out well before Venezuela even gets close.

1600+ billion barrels in reserve my friend, the whole world (including Saudi) will run out well before Venezuela even gets close.

According to the Oil and Gas Journal (OGJ), Venezuela has 77.2 billion barrels of proven conventional oil reserves (80 years of future production)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves#Venezuela

http://www.runet.edu/~wkovarik/oil/5oilreservehistory.html

Just for EA

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_res-energy-oil-reserves

And that too.

It's not my fault you are stupid.

We learn by observing others and personal experience, wisdom is knowing how to utilize both, and stupidity is ignoring the lessons of both.

In this case it was a youthful indiscretion that I have successfully learned from, and will not repeat.

1600+ billion barrels in reserve my friend, the whole world (including Saudi) will run out well before Venezuela even gets close.

What are you talking about? Venezuela has something like 75 billion barrels, and a total expected lifetime of reserves of around 80 years.

Given the recent Brazilian deepwater finds, other people are far more likely to hold out longer than Venezuela.

You knwow, I have a friend who lives in venezuela (he still doesn't forgive his father for leaving france when he was young). Based on what he's said, Chavez's popularity is somewhere between "bubonic plague" and "hit in the groin with a spiked mace".

You knwow, I have a friend who lives in venezuela (he still doesn't forgive his father for leaving france when he was young). Based on what he's said, Chavez's popularity is somewhere between "bubonic plague" and "hit in the groin with a spiked mace".

Yeah and that's why he won his last election with the biggest landslide ever seen in Venezuelan politics? The opposition to Chavez are fringe at best, their numbers being disproportionately and falsely misrepresented by rich elite interests in Venezuela and abroad. The vast majority of the Venezuelan people want to continue the process of socialization in the country. The opposition are desperate and grasping.

Yeah and that's why he won his last election with the biggest landslide ever seen in Venezuelan politics? The opposition to Chavez are fringe at best, their numbers being disproportionately and falsely misrepresented by rich elite interests in Venezuela and abroad. The vast majority of the Venezuelan people want to continue the process of socialization in the country. The opposition are desperate and grasping.
LOL...yeah, by all means don't admit that you were wrong about Venezuala's oil reserves!:D

I really don't give a damn about Chavez, but economically he's making the Spanish Mistake.

From the 1600s on, Spain was making so much money by ripping off central and south America that no spaniard had to work hard or take a job that was "beneath" them. All the shit jobs were done by foreigners, and even the lowliest peasent rode a horse and supervised the work being done on his land like a great hidalgo.

Simply, among the Spanish, the work ethic disappeared entirely. Spanish armies, financed with American Gold, dominated Europe, and Spain, the world's first modern era Superpower, dictated the foreign policies of the Catholic world - only England and the Scandinavians regularly defied the throne of Spain.

Then the Gold ran out.

In under a Century, Spain went from the lord of Europe to the sick, old man of Europe, a title it held until the Ottoman Empire started to fall apart in the nineteenth century.

If you substitute Oil for Gold, Venezuela is following the same track.

A new lesson in the tyranny of the majority, thanks to everyone's favorite Pink Cucaracha in Jackboots.


"Porque no te callas?"

He'll be in for life I would be willing to bet,
I know a way that he can be president for life *and* have a short tenure :D

and in that time I am sure in that time he will be able to groom a good line of successors, all being reliable and consistent socialists.

Ahh, like with Russia and other pinko dictatorships, right?

As a champagne socialist, (albeit without Marxist pretences, nor indeed any kind of stupid utopian idealism) I disparage your use of 'yuck-fest' :p
*giggles, imagining Yootopia as a champagne socialist closet Tory*

the oil reserves are being wasted by being given away to a country like cuba which can provide nothing beneficial from the alliance

Apart from doctors, you mean?


DONT EVER COMPARE CHAVEZ WITH HITLER THAT IS FREAKING BLASPHEMY.Hitler altough he commited mass genocide made progress for germany raised the national curreny's value uped the infrastructure and brought jobs to millions of germans altough he later led germany into a war (which still left it slightly better than what it was after WWI). Lowered crime rate in germany.

Chavez has made the venezuelan currency less than a 15th of what it used to be. Destroyed the unity of the people. Tried stablishing a communist regime. Made dangerous and poorly made infrastructure. Given free petroleum to other countries making it much harder for venezuela to progress. he redefined the perfect worknig PDVSA into a bunch of his lackies that barely know which way to point the gas hose in a gas station.Crime rate has climber upwards 500%

those are the facts Chavez is worst than hitler to his own country.

You've just lost any credibility you may have had.

He'll be in for life I would be willing to bet, and in that time I am sure in that time he will be able to groom a good line of successors, all being reliable and consistent socialists.
I doubt it highly.
It's not my fault you are stupid.
That's exactly what the right wing will say to everyone when they start getting oppressed as the money runs out and Chavez installs a military dictatorship.

Or indeed the people who've left Chavez' party as they can see the way he's going.

Or indeed most of the rest of the entire world...
1600+ billion barrels in reserve my friend, the whole world (including Saudi) will run out well before Venezuela even gets close.
Hahaha... no. It's more like 80 billion barrels.

That's exactly what the right wing will say to everyone when they start getting oppressed as the money runs out and Chavez installs a military dictatorship.

Or indeed the people who've left Chavez' party as they can see the way he's going.

Or indeed most of the rest of the entire world...

Indeed.

Hahaha... no. It's more like 80 billion barrels.

You are not the first person to mention that :D

Yeah and that's why he won his last election with the biggest landslide ever seen in Venezuelan politics? The opposition to Chavez are fringe at best, their numbers being disproportionately and falsely misrepresented by rich elite interests in Venezuela and abroad. The vast majority of the Venezuelan people want to continue the process of socialization in the country. The opposition are desperate and grasping.
So why the hell does he need press censorship if nobody cares about what they're saying anyway, hmm?
*giggles, imagining Yootopia as a champagne socialist closet Tory*
Aiee, it's harsh but likely true :(

So why the hell does he need press censorship if nobody cares about what they're saying anyway, hmm?

Logical arguments seem to be beyond EA

... was making so much money by ripping off central and south America that no one had to work hard or take a job that was "beneath" them. All the shit jobs were done by foreigners

...the world's first modern era Superpower, dictated the foreign policies of ...Why are you defending that Chavez (Satan worshiper) Negro-Latin Dictator??
You are just trying to stick a fork on my beloved Christian President (George Bush).. aren't you) :D

Yeah and that's why he won his last election with the biggest landslide ever seen in Venezuelan politics? The opposition to Chavez are fringe at best, their numbers being disproportionately and falsely misrepresented by rich elite interests in Venezuela and abroad. The vast majority of the Venezuelan people want to continue the process of socialization in the country. The opposition are desperate and grasping.

Then why does he need to centralize power in his person so absolutely? Shouldn't the Venezuelan people be fully competent to choose their own leadership to achieve this goal? After all, they do "want to continue the socialization of their country," right?

Aiee, it's harsh but likely true :(
Age must catch up with us all at some point...

Age must catch up with us all at some point...
As a 17-year old male, this is exactly the last thing I want to hear, thanks a bunch :p

As a 17-year old male, this is exactly the last thing I want to hear, thanks a bunch :p
I know! Would it make you feel better if I told you it was irony?

I know! Would it make you feel better if I told you it was irony?
The damage is both done and irreversible :(

Eres de Venezuela? Donde vives?

en mi casa won de bolas que no voy a decir donde y depaso me tube que ir del pais depues de que me intentaron asaltar 4 veces en el mismo mes (2 veces en la misma semana)


.

Oh also to the dumb hitler dumper guy yes those doctors coming in dont know shit as it obious by higher rate of misprocedure related deaths in venezuela and yes hitler was better dumbass if your a jew is not my fault you guys got killed by him also stop bitching about holocaust its not like it was first time jews were kileld and let me tell ya it aint going to be the last

No you're argument still is basically that you dislike the idealism of youth.

The term isn't idealism. The proper term is ignorance and naiveness.

The term isn't idealism. The proper term is ignorance and naiveness.

actually it 'd be freedom of tought the wise are not always the old for in their wisdom it is they who are foolish

i take this to heart generals are always fighthing the last war same is true with people
the old always think they are right

As a 17-year old male, this is exactly the last thing I want to hear, thanks a bunch :p

And when you hit 20, your hair will begin to thin.

And when you hit 20, your hair will begin to thin.

it already is and im not 20

Oh and for full disclosure, DeepSpace9 is me. I didn't create it as a puppet for General, but rather as a way to possibly RP FT while I keep IDF as MT/PMT on II.

I really don't give a damn about Chavez, but economically he's making the Spanish Mistake.

From the 1600s on, Spain was making so much money by ripping off central and south America that no spaniard had to work hard or take a job that was "beneath" them. All the shit jobs were done by foreigners, and even the lowliest peasent rode a horse and supervised the work being done on his land like a great hidalgo.

Simply, among the Spanish, the work ethic disappeared entirely. Spanish armies, financed with American Gold, dominated Europe, and Spain, the world's first modern era Superpower, dictated the foreign policies of the Catholic world - only England and the Scandinavians regularly defied the throne of Spain.

Then the Gold ran out.

In under a Century, Spain went from the lord of Europe to the sick, old man of Europe, a title it held until the Ottoman Empire started to fall apart in the nineteenth century.

If you substitute Oil for Gold, Venezuela is following the same track.

That's a bad comparison. Even at their height, the Spanish were only strong enough for a stalemate with the Ottomans, so they weren't a dominant superpower. And since they kicked out the Muslims and Jews, who are these foreigners you're talking about? I think you're getting peasantry confused with lower nobles. In most European countries back then, the less fortunate nobles weren't living lives of luxury. However in Spain, even lower nobles didn't work (and were un-taxed, which also screwed the Spanish in the long run), while the peasants were heavily taxed and did all the work. And, the gold itself was part of the ruining of Spain. Sure it helped short term, but the influx of gold eventually brought down it's value. On the other hand, we don't simply hoard oil, we use it. So oil is going to get more and more valuable, the opposite with Spain.

That's a bad comparison. Even at their height, the Spanish were only strong enough for a stalemate with the Ottomans, so they weren't a dominant superpower. And since they kicked out the Muslims and Jews, who are these foreigners you're talking about? I think you're getting peasantry confused with lower nobles. In most European countries back then, the less fortunate nobles weren't living lives of luxury. However in Spain, even lower nobles didn't work (and were un-taxed, which also screwed the Spanish in the long run), while the peasants were heavily taxed and did all the work. And, the gold itself was part of the ruining of Spain. Sure it helped short term, but the influx of gold eventually brought down it's value. On the other hand, we don't simply hoard oil, we use it. So oil is going to get more and more valuable, the opposite with Spain.

Sure, they kicked out all the Muslims and Jews, but that's not what I meant by foreigners (almost everyone they kicked out had been Spanish for generations, and loyal to the Spanish Crown - shows how much loyalty that crown had to it's citizens, doesn't it?). No, I meant the Italian and French "guest workers" that swarmed to Spain to sweep the streets, clean the buildings and do all the menial jobs they couldn't find a Spaniard to do. They were low-paid, treated like shit, and had no rights at all, but the pay was twice that they could get in their home countries, even after the punishing taxes the Crown put on them.

And while peasents were heavily taxed, an awful lot of them didn't stay peasents. They emigrated to the new world in search of better conditions - most didn't find any, and wound up being peasents in Argentina or Colombia or Panama, but they weren't in Spain, which led to a massive shortfall in labour on the land - which they solved with more "guest workers".

Oh also to the dumb hitler dumper guy yes those doctors coming in dont know shit as it obious by higher rate of misprocedure related deaths in venezuela and yes hitler was better dumbass if your a jew is not my fault you guys got killed by him also stop bitching about holocaust its not like it was first time jews were kileld and let me tell ya it aint going to be the last
You're honestly trying to say that Chavez is worse than Hitler?

Chavez is, at the moment, a democratically elected leader who has yet to go on a killing spree of anyone that he doesn't like due to their ethnicity. Nor has he stopped people getting jobs due to their ethnic background yet. Nor does he lock people up in labour camps because of their sexuality. Nor, indeed, is racism a government policy.
And when you hit 20, your hair will begin to thin.
Ach, mine already is slightly, and I'm not 20 :(

Oh and for full disclosure, DeepSpace9 is me. I didn't create it as a puppet for General, but rather as a way to possibly RP FT while I keep IDF as MT/PMT on II.
Not that this is relevant, but it's "naïveté", not "naiveness" :)

Venezuela's Chavez faces toughest vote test

President Hugo Chavez faces his toughest vote to date this weekend in a referendum to scrap term limits on his rule as polls show Venezuelans shying away from the Cuba ally's drive for socialism in the OPEC nation.

Accustomed to easy election victories, Chavez enters the referendum vote on Sunday with surveys showing his lead eroding, dissent growing from ex-allies and diplomatic disputes intensifying with Spain and Colombia.

A man was shot dead on Monday as he tried to drive his truck through an area blocked by demonstrators protesting Chavez's raft of constitutional changes, the military said.

Chavez condemned the first death of the campaign as part of what he said was a media and U.S. plan to stoke violence.

"If they choose the path of violence, then rest assured we will stand up to them in the streets and sweep them away," he said.

[...] Chavez has tried to sweeten the contested reforms with measures to reduce the workday to six hours and expand social security benefits to include workers such as street vendors.

But Datanalisis, an independent polling company, said 49 percent of likely voters will vote "No" and 39 percent "Yes".

The opposition-linked Hinterlaces pollster released a tracking poll showing the two sides neck-and-neck.


(link (http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSN2641600520071127?sp=true))

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,520011,00.html
Chavez Defending His Power from the Inside
By Jens Glüsing

Venezuela's socialist president, Hugo Chavez, is losing support. He hopes to shore up his power with an ambitious referendum that could bring him even tighter control of his South American state, but its outcome is uncertain.
A few highlights:
The "23 de Enero" neighborhood was once a bastion of the Tupamaros. But last week the group unexpectedly withdrew its support for the president, angry over the constitutional reforms Chavez wants Venezuelans to vote on in a referendum on Sunday. In response, pro-Chavez militias have driven the Tupamaros out of the city's slums.
He clashed with the president in July when Chavez ordered the military to adopt the slogan "Socialism or Death" as its official salute. "Our constitution bans the politicizing of the military, and yet the administration is seeking to bring it in line with its ideology," says the former defense minister.
After Chavez forced him to resign, Baduel decided to embark on a political career.
"We don't want to overthrow the president," says 23-year-old student leader Yon Goicoechea. "We want to save democracy."
Milk has been scarce in Chavez's oil-rich nation for weeks. A liter of milk now sells on the black market for more than a bottle of whiskey in a restaurant. Shoppers stand in line for hours to buy staples like chickens, sugar and meat.
The shortages are a result of Chavez-instituted price controls for food staples, which have prompted producers to smuggle goods to neighboring Colombia. The market for cars and other luxury goods, meanwhile, is booming. The exchange rate has been fixed since 2003, and yet inflation has surged ahead. US dollars are traded on the black market at three times the official exchange rate. "People are buying cars as an investment, to protect themselves against deterioration of the currency," explains economic expert Orlando Ochoa.
Nevertheless, economist Orlando Ochoa is firmly convinced of one thing: "Economically speaking, there will be a crash by the middle of next year."

NL please stop quoting right-wing loon articles please, the 'opposition' to Chavez is purely fringe hooligans paid off by rich interests including the US, and generally ignorant people.

NL please stop quoting right-wing loon articles please, the 'opposition' to Chavez is purely fringe hooligans paid off by rich interests including the US, and generally ignorant people.

Why not actually try to, you know, refute his sources, instead of screaming bias and hiding behind your pink skirt?

NL please stop quoting right-wing loon articles please, the 'opposition' to Chavez is purely fringe hooligans paid off by rich interests including the US, and generally ignorant people.

Eureka Australis: Please stop quoting left-wing loon articles please, the 'supporters' for Chavez are purely fringe hooligans paid off by Boligarch interests, especially those inside the government, and are generally ignorant people.

Eureka Australis: Please stop quoting left-wing loon articles please, the 'supporters' for Chavez are purely fringe hooligans paid off by Boligarch interests, especially those inside the government, and are generally ignorant people.

You win the thread, and with it, the drink of your choice.

You win the thread, and with it, the drink of your choice.

Why thank you, I'll have a nice can of coke :D

Why thank you, I'll have a nice can of coke :D

And you now lose the thread for not taking a beer.

Why thank you, I'll have a nice can of coke :D

*gives you one*

LOL...yeah, by all means don't admit that you were wrong about Venezuala's oil reserves!:D

Why you give this factually deficient keyboard surfing troll the time of day escapes me. Remember that incident back then when comparing naval strengths of Iran against the USN? How he somehow translated raw technical facts to bigotry? I'd say that's a good sign of the reality challenged.

And you now lose the thread for not taking a beer.

I'm needing caffeine to stay awake right now.

NL please stop quoting right-wing loon articles please, the 'opposition' to Chavez is purely fringe hooligans paid off by rich interests including the US, and generally ignorant people.
So if they're so weak, why the crackdowns?

In two weeks, Venezuela could be starting an extraordinary experiment in centralized socialism fueled by oil. By law, the workday would be cut to six hours. Street vendors, housewives and maids would have state-mandated pensions. And President Hugo Chávez would have significantly enhanced powers and be eligible for re-election for the rest of his life.


6 hours (I assume on the usual 6 days/week) makes 36 hours a week. In Germany, iirc, some years ago Volkswagen cut to 7 hours a day, 5 days a week totalling 35 hours/week. Nice. Chavez is about a socialist dictator as the VW. ;)

State-mandated pensions. That's what we in Europe usually do.

More power and no term for the president. That's bad.

Actually, I value this excerpt of the OP as a 2:1 in favour of the reforms.

Eureka Australis: Please stop quoting left-wing loon articles please, the 'supporters' for Chavez are... generally ignorant people.Yeah.. where did I hear that before? oh yeah, it was FrancoFanBoy and his Fascism shinning trough.

Maybe you are Fascist.. maybe not.. I dont mind either way..

but I do mind when you suggest that most of the Venezuelan people is ignorant/stupid. FYI most of the Venezuela people do support Chavez and most Venezolanos voted and elected him President .

6 hours (I assume on the usual 6 days/week) makes 36 hours a week. In Germany, iirc, some years ago Volkswagen cut to 7 hours a day, 5 days a week totalling 35 hours/week. Nice. Chavez is about a socialist dictator as the VW. ;)

State-mandated pensions. That's what we in Europe usually do.

More power and no term for the president. That's bad.

Actually, I value this excerpt of the OP as a 2:1 in favour of the reforms.
In my opinion, the more power and no term limit for the president more than cancels out the other things, and I really hope that the 6-hour week isn't 6 hours for 5 days. That would completely ruin the economy. Eugh.

More power and no term for the president. That's bad.
Actually, I value this excerpt of the OP as a 2:1 in favour of the reforms.I dont mind any terms limits.. but I do think that should be up to the German and Venezuelan people.36 hours a week. In Germany, iirc, some years ago Volkswagen cut to 7 hours a day, 5 days a week totalling 35 hours/week. Nice. Chavez is about a socialist dictator as the VW. ;)

State-mandated pensions. That's what we in Europe usually do.Oh my God !!!

:D :D

.. I really hope that the 6-hour week isn't 6 hours for 5 days. That would completely ruin the economy. Eugh.VW/Mercedes/BMW are in better shape than GM/Ford/Chrysler.. regardless of the shorter-or-longer hours.

the new system allows for people who want to work longer hours to do it and get a bigger pay check.. while allowing the one who wants to expend one more hour with the kids and wife.

Yeah.. where did I hear that before? oh yeah, it was FrancoFanBoy and his Fascism shinning trough.

Maybe you are Fascist.. maybe not.. I dont mind either way..

but I do mind when you suggest that most of the Venezuelan people is ignorant/stupid. FYI most of the Venezuela people do support Chavez and most Venezolanos voted and elected him President .

Context, bro. Context. Look at the post I was quoting. *shakes head*

More than that, there's more in common with Generalissimo Franco and Hugo Chavez than there is between Hugo Chavez and, say, Gandhi.

VW/Mercedes/BMW are in better shape than GM/Ford/Chrysler.. regardless of the shorter-or-longer hours.
Err, yes, that's quite true...

What's your point?

Err, yes, that's quite true...

What's your point?my point is that -even if I am a bit opposed to a 6 hour day proposition- the 6(or 7) has limited good-and-bad.. but it will not ruin VW or Venezuela.

You know what can actually stop/slowdown President Chavez Bolivarian initiatives?
US(we) can.. if we could stop our hard-on for huge engine sizes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXIGLrGZiU8).

...
actual US TV ad: -- proud Daddy telling his 4 years old toddler.. "see that? .. that a Hemi.. H-E-M-I "

US(we) can.. if we could stop our hard-on for huge engine sizes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXIGLrGZiU8).
Ahem...

New M3, 4l V8. Current M5, 5l V10.
Current RS4, 4.2l V8.
Current C63, 6.3l V8, other AMGs getting into twin-turbo V12 territory.

If you look at the CO2 emission figures, for example, I really doubt that cars from the States can keep up with cars from Germany.

What people need to do is drop regulations requiring cars to be heavier every year to meet absurd safety standards. That would do a lot more than changing an ad campaign.

Ahem...

New M3, 4l V8. Current M5, 5l V10.
Current RS4, 4.2l V8.
Current C63, 6.3l V8, other AMGs getting into twin-turbo V12 territory.

If you look at the CO2 emission figures, for example, I really doubt that cars from the States can keep up with cars from Germany.Wait.. are you telling me that Germans consume more Oil than US?

Is that what you are saying?

Wait.. are you telling me that Germans consume more Oil than US?

Is that what you are saying?
No, I'm saying that the particular fascination with cars that have big engines is certainly not unique to the US, and therefore most likely isn't the big reason that Americans use more oil per capita than, say, Germans.

Either way, Daimler has just begun introducing the Smart ForTwo into the US, and people in LA seem to like them as there are a lot of pre-orders. So you'll get the chance to drive an actually economical car (unlike, say, a Prius) if you really want to.

President Dictator Hugo Chavez for life of Venezuela is trying to turn Venezuela into another Communist Dictatorship nation for life like Cuba make no mistake about it.

http://i.today.reuters.com/pictures/galleries/Stories/633308185815625000/Previews/03_mdf1269562.JPG

President Dictator Hugo Chavez for life of Venezuela is trying to turn Venezuela into another Communist Dictatorship nation for life like Cuba make no mistake about it.
Cool.