NationStates Jolt Archive

"the Ron Paul Dollar. Available in pure $1 Copper, $20 Silver, and $1000 Gold Ron Paul Dollars. It was specifically designed to popularize Ron Paul's campaign, put more real money in the people's hands"

"Secret Service and FBI agents raided the makers of Ron Paul silver dollars, Liberty Dollar of Evansville, Ind., early Thursday in a move likely aimed at stamping out an illegal currency."

http://www.thestreet.com/s/raid-on-ron-paul-dollar-maker/markets/marketfeatures/10390631.html

http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/ronpauldollar

Not a joke.


When DAWKTER ron and his 66,666 followers go up to the space comet HALE BOPP, they will only be able to to use DAWKTER RON GOLDEN NUGGET MOON MONEY DOLLARS.

When people say that DAWKTER ron stands for TROOF, PIRACY, GOLDEN NUGGETS and HALE BOPP they aren't very far from the mark.

Illegal currency? Christ, it's stamped bullion!

That seems a little ludicrous...I guess they're so worried about the dollar tanking further that they have to criminalize buying bullion that looks like a coin.

Paul supporters are irrepressible dorks, but what is the justification for this? Are people not allowed to own silver coins? I have troy ounce of silver pressed into a coin, is the FBI coming for me?

Paul supporters are irrepressible dorks, but what is the justification for this? Are people not allowed to own silver coins? I have troy ounce of silver pressed into a coin, is the FBI coming for me?

No -- you can't make them stop the rise of the police state. :p

The website selling the fake money has been engaged in criminal activity regarding the currency for some time. They mint metal coins and encourage people to use them as real money, even giving detailed pointers on how to trick cashiers into thinking that a coin containing one ounce of silver is equivalent to 20 USD.

Also, the site operates a pyramid scheme where you pay money to join the program then recoup it from the fee paid by people you recruit.

What is more, the company is engaged in whackjob related program activities.

The website selling the fake money has been engaged in criminal activity regarding the currency for some time. They mint metal coins and encourage people to use them as real money, even giving detailed pointers on how to trick cashiers into thinking that a coin containing one ounce of silver is equivalent to 20 USD.

Also, the site operates a pyramid scheme where you pay money to join the program then recoup it from the fee paid by people you recruit.

What is more, the company is engaged in whackjob related program activities.

Does the site actually have an affiliation with Ron Paul, then? From what you're saying, it sounds like they're just capitalizing on an internet fad, not actually with the campaign.

Go Ron Paul!

I swear the Fed and the government said it was perfectly legal. *sigh*

Yeah, who would think that it is or should be legal to stamp silver.

"the Ron Paul Dollar. Available in pure $1 Copper, $20 Silver, and $1000 Gold Ron Paul Dollars. It was specifically designed to popularize Ron Paul's campaign, put more real money in the people's hands"

And by some amazing alchemy, put more fiat money into the Paul campaign.

The $1000 Gold Ron Paul Dollar measures 32 mm and contains one Troy ounce of .9999 fine gold

To buy one currently costs 10% over the spot price of gold.

Gold closed down at 20¢ $785.70

The latter also stamp coins. Their coins are available at $808, giving some idea of the cost of stamping and distribution. $22.

So, Ron Paul supporters can spend ($864-$808 =) $56 of their worthless fiat currency to get Paul into the presidency, but

BEST OF ALL, they don't even need fiat currency! Look:

http://www.libertydollar.org/graphics/sitewide/acceptALD.gif

Buy a Gold Ron Paul Liberty Dollar (http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/ronpauldollar/index.htm#products) ... with Liberty Dollars! Now that's the way to make a buck!

The website's instructions for passing its metal coins off as counterfeit money:

How to use the Liberty Dollar

3. Although prudence would seem to indicate that people would refuse a currency they've never seen, this is simply not the case. After thousands of transactions, the Liberty Dollar is readily accepted most of the time. It is meant to be circulated voluntarily as barter, accumulated and collected.

4. Simply offer The Liberty Dollar with the confidence that it will be accepted. After all, why wouldn't it? When you offer the American Express Card, if it is not accepted, they tell you. Likewise, if the store does not accept Liberty Dollars, the cashier will tell you and you can simply pay another way.

5. "Do the Drop!" The best way to introduce the Liberty Dollar is to drop the Silver Liberty in someone's hand. Do not hand it to the cashier, Drop it! Hold a one-ounce Silver Liberty a couple inches above the outreached palm and drop it so it lands flat in the person's palm.

6. Now the hardest part - don't say anything! Just wait. Let the person marvel at its beauty, weight, and discover it says TWENTY DOLLARS. When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver PRIVATE currency valued at 20 dollars." Do not rush. Just stand there and wait, patiently. No need to smile. Just wait.

7. After 30 seconds, say, "I have US government legal tender money too [show the cashier FRN cash], but would prefer to pay with silver." If the cashier hands it back immediately, you may ask her to show the currency to the manager, or just pay some other way.

The search warrant and siezure warrant and description of events, along with the agents info can be found here:

http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/legal/raid.htm

The OP is accused of mis-newsing for hype and personal dislike.

The liberty dollar minted just like any other commemorative minting. Franklin mint ect...

The website's instructions for passing its metal coins off as counterfeit money:

How to use the Liberty Dollar

3. Although prudence would seem to indicate that people would refuse a currency they've never seen, this is simply not the case. After thousands of transactions, the Liberty Dollar is readily accepted most of the time. It is meant to be circulated voluntarily as barter, accumulated and collected.

4. Simply offer The Liberty Dollar with the confidence that it will be accepted. After all, why wouldn't it? When you offer the American Express Card, if it is not accepted, they tell you. Likewise, if the store does not accept Liberty Dollars, the cashier will tell you and you can simply pay another way.

5. "Do the Drop!" The best way to introduce the Liberty Dollar is to drop the Silver Liberty in someone's hand. Do not hand it to the cashier, Drop it! Hold a one-ounce Silver Liberty a couple inches above the outreached palm and drop it so it lands flat in the person's palm.

6. Now the hardest part - don't say anything! Just wait. Let the person marvel at its beauty, weight, and discover it says TWENTY DOLLARS. When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver PRIVATE currency valued at 20 dollars." Do not rush. Just stand there and wait, patiently. No need to smile. Just wait.

7. After 30 seconds, say, "I have US government legal tender money too [show the cashier FRN cash], but would prefer to pay with silver." If the cashier hands it back immediately, you may ask her to show the currency to the manager, or just pay some other way.



You forgot this one Hmmm...

2. Education is an important part of using the Liberty Dollar. Please read all materials included in the kit you received as well as review all content on our website. Most people do not understand how money works. The merchant you are about to use the Liberty Dollar with must know that the Liberty Dollar is private, non-government currency; so it cannot be deposited in a bank. It is not 'legal tender', a 'coin', or United states government money like Federal Reserve Notes (FRNs).

You forgot this one Hmmm...

2. Education is an important part of using the Liberty Dollar. Please read all materials included in the kit you received as well as review all content on our website. Most people do not understand how money works. The merchant you are about to use the Liberty Dollar with must know that the Liberty Dollar is private, non-government currency; so it cannot be deposited in a bank. It is not 'legal tender', a 'coin', or United states government money like Federal Reserve Notes (FRNs).

The problem is that #2 is countermanded by the rest.

The site makes a habit of this sort of deception, for instance, it outlines its pyramid scheme and then states "this is not a pyramid scheme."

Actions are what these loons are in trouble for, not words. The act of minting fake dollars and calling them "Liberty Dollars" is illegal, as is the act of trying to use fake dollars called "Liberty Dollars" to pay for things when asked for dollars.

If you make blanks the shape of a nickel and try to use them in vending machines, you're a counterfeiter, because even though your blanks don't say "five cents," you're attempting to pass them off as fractions of dollars.

If these people were merely making novelty coins, bullion or medallions, and then offering to trade them for goods and services then it would be different, but these constitution rangers are stamping dollar values on them and attempting to use them as dollars, which is a serious crime.

If these people were merely making novelty coins, bullion or medallions, and then offering to trade them for goods and services then it would be different, but these constitution rangers are stamping dollar values on them and attempting to use them as dollars, which is a serious crime.

It's the use as dollars that's the real problem here; you're perfectly free to make coins, but giving them a face value in dollars is the main issue. Now, if somebody wanted to accept gold or silver as payment for something in lieu of dollars, that would presumably be fine, since otherwise that would make barter illegal and would make little sense.

It's when you say that coin or that bar has dollar value X that you run in to problems. The dollar is not some kind of free currency unit that anyone can use if they want to; it's the currency of the United States and has legal tender value, and classifying something as having a dollar value effectively grants legal tender status to that currency. This, of course, is and should be illegal, because otherwise counterfeiting would be legal; after all, if anything can be a dollar, what's to say my bill is any different from the ones produced by the government?

It's the use as dollars that's the real problem here; you're perfectly free to make coins, but giving them a face value in dollars is the main issue. Now, if somebody wanted to accept gold or silver as payment for something in lieu of dollars, that would presumably be fine, since otherwise that would make barter illegal and would make little sense.

It's when you say that coin or that bar has dollar value X that you run in to problems. The dollar is not some kind of free currency unit that anyone can use if they want to; it's the currency of the United States and has legal tender value, and classifying something as having a dollar value effectively grants legal tender status to that currency. This, of course, is and should be illegal, because otherwise counterfeiting would be legal; after all, if anything can be a dollar, what's to say my bill is any different from the ones produced by the government?

Ding ding ding correct.

There is a reason they don't raid the Franklin Mint, for example.

On a 106-degree May afternoon in 2003, government agents raided several establishments belonging to Southern Nevada businessman Robert “Bobby” Kahre. With guns drawn, officials held more than 20 handcuffed workers in the sun without water as agents collected records and other materials.

Kahre hadn’t committed a crime. He had upset the Internal Revenue Service by paying his workers based on the face value of gold and silver coins, versus the market value in the Federal Reserve system (the value of the coins in U.S. paper dollars). Even though the coins were in circulation, displayed a face value, and were regulated by Congress, the IRS’s confusing and endless tax code did not determine how to handle these gold and silver coins if used for payroll. The tax code only references dollars. It does not distinguish between coined money and paper money.

Kahre didn’t opt for the precious metal bullion system without first doing his homework. He consulted monetary experts, engaged in extensive research, and even met with congressmen. Kahre’s conclusion was simple: While the currency in the precious-metal system was greater in value than the currency in the other system, as money and a medium of exchange, the law knows no difference between the face value of both currencies.

The IRS expected Kahre to report his workers’ earnings based on the coins’ market value in the Federal Reserve system. Instead, he didn’t report or pay anything at all because the face value of the coins fell below the reporting threshold. The IRS alleged that Kahre and the other defendants paid at least $114 million (based on the Federal Reserve system) to workers. The use of these coins in trade is a direct challenge to the fiat money system now in place.

“Bobby Kahre is the only person in the world I know of with the courage to do that,” said Joel Hansen, a Las Vegas attorney who represented one of the nine defendants in the case.

While the purpose of the case was to identify the intent of the defendants, the trial that followed tested America’s dual monetary system and further validated that the U.S. greenback is quickly becoming more and more a worthless piece of paper.

In 1985, Ron Paul and other congressmen challenged our country’s currency system, which was monopolized by Federal Reserve Notes (FRNs) — the familiar greenbacks in American wallets. The congressmen successfully pursued the Gold Bullion Coin Act, which required the U.S. government to mint and place gold coins in denominations of $50, $25, $10 and $5 into circulation based on demand. The coins are made of 91.67 percent pure gold.

The ultimate purpose of the act was to allow Americans to invest in gold. However, it also brought sanity back to this country’s monetary system by establishing a dual system. Instead of the Federal Reserve solely providing the money supply by endlessly printing FRNs, the U.S. government now minted and circulated precious metal coins.

In the mid-’90s, Kahre began exercising this alternate system. He compensated workers for their labor in the form of these gold and silver coins versus FRNs. The workers calculated their income and tax liability based on the face value of the coins.

One gold coin with a face value of $50 currently equals $806 in FRNs. If a worker earns a $50 gold coin each week, that person takes home an annual income of $2,600 based on the precious metal system, which is below the income-tax reporting threshold for an employee. However, the value of the coins in FRNs — $41,912 — is not. That’s the basic idea.

The IRS did not fancy Kahre’s gold-and-silver payroll system, and after seven years of operating his family businesses in this fashion, he and eight others found themselves as defendants in a Las Vegas federal courtroom. Kahre was charged with 109 counts of tax-related crimes, varying from tax evasion to willful failure to file and conspiracy to evade taxes. Fifty-two other counts were divided among the other defendants.

While the case was about the intent of the defendants, it raised several issues. There was the issue of whether or not Kahre’s workers were considered independent contractors, who are responsible for paying their own taxes, or employees, who have their taxes withheld by their employer each pay period. Then there’s the issue of America’s dual monetary system. If there are two monetary systems, and the value of one system’s currency is greater than the other beyond its face value, what is the standard for determining the value of taxable income?

No Federal Court of Appeals has ever ruled that the gold coins in question must be reported to the IRS based on FRN market value.

“The defense showed that the defendants believed in good faith that a Federal Reserve Note is not the standard because Congress created the dual monetary system,” Hansen said. “The defendants believed that gold and silver coins are just as legitimate and legal as our other tender, the FRN.”

Kahre certainly caught the attention of the IRS. In addition to operating his businesses via the gold-and-silver payroll system, according to testimony at the trial, he helped 35 other contracting companies do the same.

But even though Kahre and his colleagues followed the dual monetary system mandated by Congress, the IRS didn’t care. To America’s most feared agency, the bottom line was Kahre’s workers weren’t taxed enough for their labor.

Based partially on cases that pre-dated the 1985 Gold Bullion Coin Act, the judge in the case did not allow defense attorneys to argue that Kahre was justified to pay workers based on the face value of the coins. Based on case law, the court concluded that income had to be calculated based on the FRN fair market value, rather than upon the face value.

A flaw with some of those cases was that each referred to double-eagle gold coins, which Franklin D. Roosevelt outlawed in 1934. Those coins are no longer in circulation like the coins minted by the U.S. government following the 1985 Act. The double-eagle coins were deemed to be property for tax purposes in those old cases.

Of course, the judge’s rule was binding upon the parties and was followed by the defense attorneys at the trial. Hansen, under the good faith belief defense, was able to present evidence that his specific client, Alex Loglia, who performed research work for Kahre, did not have intent to commit tax crimes. This interesting twist allowed jurors to still hear the argument that Kahre was justified to pay workers based on the face value of the coins. The U.S. Supreme Court had long before ruled, in the Cheek case, that a good defense in a tax-evasion case is a person had good faith in not following certain tax laws.

“The Supreme Court said, if they don’t have criminal intent, then they are not guilty of tax evasion,” Hansen explained. “That doesn’t mean you don’t have to pay the tax, but it means you didn’t commit a crime and won’t go to jail for a felony.”

In 2005, Loglia penned a paper that earned him an ‘A’ from his law school professor Jay Bybee (who just happens to also be a 9th Circuit judge) on the gold-coin issue and the separation of powers. His paper took the position that, under Article 1, Section 8, Clause 5 of the Constitution, Congress alone had the power to coin money and set its value.

Loglia’s position was that the judicial branch does not have this power.

“The judge applied those old court cases, but we were still able to make the argument that Alex was not criminally liable because he believed in good faith in the use of the face value of the gold and silver coins for tax purposes,” Hansen said. “Loglia’s 100-page legal paper was great evidence for the jury of his good faith belief.”



Beyond the courtroom, there is another significant issue with the Kahre case — it gives attention to the ever-decreasing value of the Federal Reserve Note.

One Euro is now worth $1.45 in FRNs. A Chinese Yuan buys the same as $1.34 in FRNs. Even the Canadian dollar is now more valuable than our paper currency. Compared to the American buck, it’ll buy seven cents more in goods and services.

“Because of how much stronger the Euro is compared to an American FRN, the Federal Reserve just pumped up to $50 billion of FRNs into Federal Reserve banks to prop up the banks,” Hansen said. “But when they do that, every dollar that you have in your pocket is now worth less.”

However, America’s other monetary system — gold and silver coins — does not decrease in value. It becomes more valuable in terms of FRNs. Americans, though, rely on the FRN, and its rapid decline will sooner than later decimate the middle class, Hansen said.

Take socialist Karl Marx’s theory, for example. He believed the most effective way to obliterate the middle class involved a system of progressive taxation coupled with inflation. In the Federal Reserve’s case, if the bank continues to inflate the currency so that everybody moves into higher and higher tax brackets, eventually everybody will pay 30 to 40 percent of their income to taxes in Federal Reserve Notes, all while the FRN decreases in value due to inflation.

“By using the gold coins, Kahre was beating Karl Marx, the socialists and the liberals who want people to pay more and more so they can have bigger and bigger government,” Hansen said. “Kahre challenged the whole system and that’s why the IRS came down so hard on him and his associates.

“The IRS doesn’t want this going on; they want you to use their fiat money and be forced into higher tax brackets through progressive taxation coupled with inflation. That way there’s no limit on the money they can issue and inflate.”

On Sept. 17, after four months of trial and days of deliberation, the Las Vegas federal jury returned with its verdicts. The courtroom was crowded as the IRS and Department of Justice filled the entire area on their side of the chambers with its officials.

Hansen was uncertain of what to expect. He just hoped that the jurors listened closely to the evidence presented.

“I could tell in the closing arguments, as I was watching the jury, that they were sympathetic to what I was saying. But what they were going to do, I did not know,” he recalled. “I think the government, because it had packed the courtroom, was confident they were going to get numerous guilty verdicts.”

Rather, jurors delivered zero guilty verdicts. Three defendants, all workers, were acquitted as well as Kahre’s mother, who worked as a runner for her son’s businesses. Two other defendants were partly acquitted — the jury hung on one count each. The jury also hung on all counts faced by Kahre, Loglia and Kahre’s sister, resulting in mistrials.

“I’m telling you that I have never seen such a dejected group of people leave a courtroom in my life,” Hansen said of DOJ and IRS officials. “They were shocked. Of course, we were pleased.

“The thing is, they had 161 counts and they did not get a guilty verdict on a single one. They got a big goose egg. We didn’t get not-guilty verdicts for everyone, but the government didn’t get anything.”

The IRS was supposed to notify the judge in late October if the agency intended to retry the five defendants on the charges that resulted in a hung jury. The government waffled, indicating they would pursue another grand jury and issue superceding indictments. More information will be known by mid-November.

Looking back, Hansen recalls what may have been a key turning point in the trial. The government called three accountants to testify. The defense asked each one, “What is the proper way to calculate income for purposes of the Internal Revenue Code if you are paid in a gold coin that has a $50 face value on it?” All three of them responded, “I do not know; I’ll have to research that.”

“One of them had a masters degree in taxation!” Hansen observed, saying their answers made it difficult to prove the defendants willfully committed tax crimes. “If accountants and masters of taxation don’t know the answer to this question, how in the world can they expect anything different from an ordinary person who is confronted with a dual monetary system created by Congress?”

Hansen believes it was uncalled for to prosecute Kahre and the other eight defendants criminally. The case revolved around a complicating and confusing legal issue. It should have been handled civilly, Hansen said, but the IRS wanted to make an example of these defendants because the federal government simply doesn’t want anyone paying a lower tax than what the feds determine should be paid.

“If a coin says it is a $50 gold piece, and it says ‘In God We Trust,’ and the law says that it is legal tender, and it is in circulation, isn’t it reasonable for people to think that they can calculate their tax liability based on that?” Hansen asks. “If a tax accountant can’t answer that question, how can a common worker be guilty of a crime? The outcome of this case is a magnificent victory for those of us who believe that the United States of America should have an honest monetary system.”

One Euro is now worth $1.45 in FRNs. A Chinese Yuan buys the same as $1.34 in FRNs. Even the Canadian dollar is now more valuable than our paper currency. Compared to the American buck, it’ll buy seven cents more in goods and services.



A chinese yuan does not in fact buy anywhere near 1.34 dollars. One dollar is worth about seven yuan. Also, the yuan is pegged to the dollar, so it isn't an indicator of the dollar's strength at all.

What website did you get this moronic perjury from? Raving blather about communists and liberals? Do you really buy into this shit?

“The thing is, they had 161 counts and they did not get a guilty verdict on a single one. They got a big goose egg. We didn’t get not-guilty verdicts for everyone, but the government didn’t get anything.”


“If a coin says it is a $50 gold piece, and it says ‘In God We Trust,’ and the law says that it is legal tender, and it is in circulation, isn’t it reasonable for people to think that they can calculate their tax liability based on that?” Hansen asks. “If a tax accountant can’t answer that question, how can a common worker be guilty of a crime? The outcome of this case is a magnificent victory for those of us who believe that the United States of America should have an honest monetary system.”


Spin your symantics else where... They paid in gold and won in court - one precedent at a time.

Spin your symantics else where... They paid in gold and won in court - one precedent at a time.

What in god's name are you mumbling about?

The dope fiend who wrote the article doesn't understand the relationship between the yuan and the dollar, and also doesn't even have a close approximation of the exchange rate.

What is more, this thread is about people trying to pass fake counterfeit money, not people using gold coins with legal dollar face values, issued by the United States Mint, to pay for things.

The DAWKTER ron kool aid and comet worship is rotting your brain son! Back to the golden nugget mines!

A chinese yuan does not in fact buy anywhere near 1.34 dollars. One dollar is worth about seven yuan. Also, the yuan is pegged to the dollar, so it isn't an indicator of the dollar's strength at all.

I think they were confusing PPP with the nominal exchange rate; in PPP terms, the yuan is somewhere around 5 times overvalued, which gives it a value of around $0.71 USD. Interestingly, this also means China's PPP-adjusted GDP is around $10.5 trillion dollars and will surpass the US in the next couple of years. Of course, even then, it's still wrong; the yuan is nowhere near more valuable than the USD in either nominal or PPP terms. If that were the case, we would be running a huge trade surplus with China rather than vice versa.

Problem is, people automatically assume a strong currency is a good thing. It isn't always, especially if you export a lot of goods like the US (of course, we also import a lot, which is why exchange rate balance is pretty important).

I think they were confusing PPP with the nominal exchange rate; in PPP terms, the yuan is somewhere around 5 times overvalued, which gives it a value of around $0.71 USD. Interestingly, this also means China's PPP-adjusted GDP is around $10.5 trillion dollars and will surpass the US in the next couple of years. Of course, even then, it's still wrong; the yuan is nowhere near more valuable than the USD in either nominal or PPP terms. If that were the case, we would be running a huge trade surplus with China rather than vice versa.

Problem is, people automatically assume a strong currency is a good thing. It isn't always, especially if you export a lot of goods like the US (of course, we also import a lot, which is why exchange rate balance is pretty important).

The mistake they probably made is that 10 yuan would buy 1.34 dollars, but the whole point the dunce is trying to make is that the dollar is weak, which he misrepresented the USD/CHY rate to 'demonstrate.'

What's worse is that since the two currencies are pegged, he couldn't demonstrate the dollar's strength or weakness using that comparison no matter what the rate.

Whats even worse is that the long cut and paste spam containing that and other falsehoods was posted on the forum by this bumbling spammer.

The search warrant and siezure warrant and description of events, along with the agents info can be found here:

http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/legal/raid.htm

The OP is accused of mis-newsing for hype and personal dislike.

The liberty dollar minted just like any other commemorative minting. Franklin mint ect...

Nice job detective. Was going to say something like this but it appears you beat me to it. It is not illegal to make this coin at all. As you pointed out it is perfectly legal. Now if you make a coin and try and pass it off as an official government coin then it is illegal to do so.

Shhh.... if NG comes back he'll refute and point out that what they were really doing and since he called me bumbling now i dont have to even worry about my spelling, and just having the satisfaction of the peace and quite while he read the whole article was nice and I hope that he goes thru the whole thing and corrects it plus I have about 70 incorrct math problems to post also....;)

This, of course, is and should be illegal, because otherwise counterfeiting would be legal; after all, if anything can be a dollar, what's to say my bill is any different from the ones produced by the government?

One would think that there is more to "counterfeiting" than simply saying "this is a dollar." After all, it would be silly if I could be prosecuted and jailed for holding up a spoon and saying "this is a Dollar." Such would be absurd because any reasonable person could see that the spoon is not a Dollar.

Rather, if I understand correctly, "counterfeiting" refers to the act of producing currency that looks like a genuine Federal Reserve Note, so that the average person would be tricked into believing that it is a actual Dollar.

A gold coin stamped with Ron Paul's face is clearly not a Federal Reserve Note. Thus, it may be foolish to trust someones claim that it is worth a particular number of dollars, but I don't think making such a claim constitutes actual "counterfeiting." If I want to pay an arbitrary amount of money for a slug of gold, that's my business, isn't it?

(I am not a lawyer, a Fed official, a legislator, fully awake, etc.)

Okay, there is just something I have to ask. New Grenada, why do you keep equating Ron Paul supporters with Heaven's Gate?

Maybe they are all going to kill themselves when he doesn't win the election?

One would think that there is more to "counterfeiting" than simply saying "this is a dollar." After all, it would be silly if I could be prosecuted and jailed for holding up a spoon and saying "this is a Dollar." Such would be absurd because any reasonable person could see that the spoon is not a Dollar.

What I mean is attempting to pass off something as a dollar, even though it isn't. If you went to the store and said "I'd like to pay for it with this spoon, which has value $X", it would be presumably be illegal since you're declaring that said item is equivalent to the legal tender FRN.

Rather, if I understand correctly, "counterfeiting" refers to the act of producing currency that looks a genuine Federal Reserve Note, so that the average person would be tricked into believing that it is a real Dollar.

They're not doing the first, but they are doing the second by encouraging people to declare the face value of these coins as equivalent to a FRN of the same value. So, it wouldn't be counterfeiting, but rather something similar.

A gold coin stamped with Ron Paul's face is clearly not a Federal Reserve Note. Thus, it may be foolish to trust someones claim that it is worth a particular number of dollars, but I don't think making such a claim constitutes actual "counterfeiting." If I want to pay an arbitrary amount of money for a slug of gold, that's my business, isn't it?

[QUOTE](I am not a lawyer, Fed official, legislator, fully awake, etc.)

Neither am I, of course...not to mention I'm rather eagerly awaiting the arrival of a nice package of Guinness for tomorrow's OSU-Michigan game.

Okay, there is just something I have to ask. New Grenada, why do you keep equating Ron Paul supporters with Heaven's Gate?

If you went to the store and said "I'd like to pay for it with this spoon, which has value $X"


That's not passing off the spoon as a Dollar. That's claiming that the spoon has a value equivilant to X Dollars.

After all, when I originally bought the spoon at the kitchen store, it cost me so many Dollars to purchase it. The spoon had a value to the kitchen store equivalent to X Dollars. Does this mean the kitchen store was trying to pass off a spoon as a Dollar?

Of course not, and it's no different for a slug of gold or silver.


So, it wouldn't be counterfeiting, but rather something similar.


It may very well be some sort of fraud, if the claim that "our coin is worth so many dollars" is in fact untrue. But it's not counterfeiting.

I'm impressed that you posters can make such good bricks with such poor straw.

Any merit that Paul's currency-reform idea might have is made a mockery of by this daft attempt to set up his own mint. Even if this stunt is eventually found to be within the law, it remains a twerpish attempt to implement a policy which Paul plainly does not understand the full consequences of, and will never have a real mandate for.

Ron Paul's economics is to real economics what the Franklin Mint is to the Federal Mint. Snake oil, plastic beads, an economic Tupperware party.

"No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public" ... well, hey, let's just test that shall we, Ron?

Gimme RPD$ 1000 worth of Ron Paul Dollars please, for this Gold Ron Paul Dollar I just paid US$ 865 for. What, I only get RPD$ 1000 for RPD$ 1000? So what is this thing worth anyway? Huh? You don't know?

Oh, it's an "investment." An investment in bullshit. No thanks, I'd rather collect Barbies.

It may very well be some sort of fraud, if the claim that "our coin is worth so many dollars" is in fact untrue. But it's not counterfeiting.

The $1000 gold coin contains less than a troy ounce of gold. Gold is at a bit under $750/troy oz, last I checked. As such, it is an untrue statement.

The $1000 gold coin contains less than a troy ounce of gold. Gold is at a bit under $750/troy oz, last I checked. As such, it is an untrue statement.

Well then, given that the site also encourages using the coins as currency while claiming it to have a value it does not, it would fall under the purview of counterfeiting and fraud.

Throw them to the wolves.

Any merit that Paul's currency-reform idea might have is made a mockery of by this daft attempt to set up his own mint.


It's not "his own mint."


Paul's campaign said it had not authorized production of the Ron Paul dollars.
"We have no connection with that," said Jesse Benton, a campaign spokesman for Paul. "He was using Ron as a marketing technique. We didn't have anything to do with that or sanction it or give permission in any way."


http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/L/LIBERTY_DOLLAR_RAIDS?SITE=VABRM&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

It comes back to the fact that people using these coins tried to pay for things priced in dollars with them, by using metal coins stamped with dollar values.

Also, the manufacturer strenuously encouraged people to do this - the clear and indisputable intent is for people to buy these coins as part of the mint's pyamid scheme, and then recoup the money they spent buying them by using them as money to pay for dollar-denominated goods and services.

If you make something that looks like money, and print a dollar value on it, and also go to a store and try to pass it off as money, even unsuccessfully, you have opened yourself up to criminal prosecution.

Spoons or pieces of toilet paper probably wouldn't get you prosecuted, since there is some discretion in charging people, but a large program to mint fake dollar coins and use them would and has.

These kooks were warned and then ignored the warnings, there is no excuse for their behavior.

Ron Paul's supports wish he was as cool as Emperor Norton. Too bad they're getting prosecuted because they take themselves seriously while Norton had a long and happy reign.

When DAWKTER ron and his 66,666 followers go up to the space comet HALE BOPP, they will only be able to to use DAWKTER RON GOLDEN NUGGET MOON MONEY DOLLARS.

Endorsed by Neil Armstrong and Xenu!

Nice job detective. Was going to say something like this but it appears you beat me to it. It is not illegal to make this coin at all. As you pointed out it is perfectly legal. Now if you make a coin and try and pass it off as an official government coin then it is illegal to do so.

If you make a coin and encourage people to use it as legal tender, even if you say it isn't, that's counterfeiting. Read the articles closely next time.

I could call it cessation of biological functions by modification of your cranium and cerebellum for increased heat dissipation via improved ventilation, but it'd still be putting holes in your head, and still be murder.

Idiots.