NationStates Jolt Archive


More proof that primates are very similar to humans and should be treated equally

Sel Appa
14-11-2007, 02:11
Capuchin monkeys (the one in Pirates of the Caribbean) are monkeys that aren't that related to humans like chimps or gorillas because they lived in the "New World". They are showing that they understand the concept of fairness.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/monkeysfussoverinequality)

Like children who complain "no fair," capuchin monkeys throw fits when their companions get better treats.

In a new study, envy reared its ugly head if capuchins, primates like us, landed slices of cucumber while their cage mates received tasty grapes—considered more desirable.

The recognition of an unfair situation could be critical for maintaining relationships in cooperative societies such as those of capuchins, as well as among humans, the researchers said. The study also suggests the roots of human fairness stretch well back in evolutionary time.

"In a cooperative species, being able to distinguish when one is being treated inequitably is very useful for determining whether or not to continue cooperating with a partner," said psychologist Sarah Brosnan at Georgia State University.

Monkey madness

Brosnan, along with lead author Megan van Wolkenten and Frans B. M. de Waal, both at Emory University in Georgia, trained 13 tufted capuchin monkeys (Cebus apella) at Emory's Yerkes National Primate Research Center to play a no-fair game. In the game, each of a pair of monkeys would hand a small granite rock to a human in exchange for a reward, either a cucumber slice or the more preferable grape.

When both monkeys received cucumber rewards, all was fine in primate land. But when one monkey handed over the granite stone and landed a grape, while monkey number two got a cucumber, madness ensued.

"They would literally take the cucumber from me and then drop it on the ground or throw it on the ground, or when I offered it to them they would simply turn around and refuse to accept it," Brosnan told LiveScience.

Further experiments ruled out greed or frustration as forces driving the capuchin monkeys to react negatively to a cucumber reward.

Primate sense of fairness

The results have implications for the evolution of fairness in humans, the authors write this week in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Capuchins are considered New World monkeys and so they are more distantly related to humans than chimpanzees. By studying fairness in primates from different evolutionary spots on the tree of life, Brosnan hopes to tease out where certain features of this trait showed up and whether humans' sense of fairness is unique to us.

The latest findings suggest that a sense of fairness is deeply ingrained in human evolutionary history rather than the idea that it's a more cultural response, and thus, learned from other humans.

"This work resonates with a lot of people, because I think all of us have had those experiences where something seems good enough until we found out that someone had a higher salary or a better start-up package," Brosnan said.

The researchers noted one difference, however, between the human and capuchin senses of fairness: While humans regard fairness as equal treatment of themselves and others, the capuchin monkeys only care about number one.

"The capuchins' sense of inequity seems to be very one-sided. It's all about whether or not 'I' got treated unfairly," Brosnan said. "That certainly implies that this stage evolved first and that may be where humans have taken the extra step and become more focused on both sides of the equation."
Gartref
14-11-2007, 02:20
Monkey pettiness. Let them eat grapes!
New Genoa
14-11-2007, 02:34
Similar, yes, the same - no.
Zilam
14-11-2007, 02:41
Yes human and ape should be treated equal. Therefore, I declare that all people and primates be caged up for all to see and point at.
Oustrabard
14-11-2007, 02:43
Maybe we should put them in scientific labs!

They might fix the "light-speed-limit" problem!
Bann-ed
14-11-2007, 02:46
I thought that we were primates?
Dyakovo
14-11-2007, 02:47
I thought that we were primates?

And you thought correctly
Aardweasels
14-11-2007, 02:55
Strangely enough, even dogs have a basic sense of fairness (though not quite as finely tuned as humans or, apparently monkeys). My pugs are quite incensed when one of them gets a treat and the other doesn't, and pugs have perhaps the smallest brain of any dog out there.

A grasp of fair or unfair really has nothing to do with whether an animal is sentient or not, or even whether it deserves to be treated as "equal" to humans. Frankly, with rights come responsibilities. Show me the monkeys will obey the customs and laws we have in our various countries, and will give back to society what each of us is expected to give, and then we'll talk about equality.

Until then...there's always the cages and the pointing at for the monkeys to fall back on. I mean, hey, free grapes.
FreedomEverlasting
14-11-2007, 03:07
Yes we need to treat them equally by throwing them into factories to work for minimum wage, or since they can't use money, the amount of bananas equal to the wage they earn minus tax.

If they don't like working 8 hours a day and overtime? Then obviously they are just lazy and should be treated the same way we treat homeless people right now, or in another word, leave them on the street to die and pretend like they don't exist.

I am not sure if monkeys prefer that kind of life over being left alone in the forest.
Bann-ed
14-11-2007, 03:13
This is kind of like saying that other races are like me and should be treated equally.
I think not.
Yes, this was sarcasm.
Wilgrove
14-11-2007, 03:26
Yea....when primates and apes can vote and actually understand what or who they're voting for, then they can be equal. Until then.
Bann-ed
14-11-2007, 03:30
Yea....when primates and apes can vote and actually understand what or who they're voting for, then they can be equal. Until then.

You just unequal-ified half the world's population!
Free Soviets
14-11-2007, 03:30
Yea....when primates and apes can vote and actually understand what or who they're voting for, then they can be equal. Until then.

hey now, just because they inexplicably vote republican, that's no reason to deny the fundamental human equality of all those people.
Julianus II
14-11-2007, 03:35
Strangely enough, even dogs have a basic sense of fairness (though not quite as finely tuned as humans or, apparently monkeys). My pugs are quite incensed when one of them gets a treat and the other doesn't, and pugs have perhaps the smallest brain of any dog out there.

A grasp of fair or unfair really has nothing to do with whether an animal is sentient or not, or even whether it deserves to be treated as "equal" to humans. Frankly, with rights come responsibilities. Show me the monkeys will obey the customs and laws we have in our various countries, and will give back to society what each of us is expected to give, and then we'll talk about equality.

Until then...there's always the cages and the pointing at for the monkeys to fall back on. I mean, hey, free grapes.

I agree with that guy.
Wilgrove
14-11-2007, 03:41
hey now, just because they inexplicably vote republican, that's no reason to deny the fundamental human equality of all those people.

Yea, and it's not fair to the asses (in this term, ass means donkey) who vote Democrat either, so you do have a point.
Intestinal fluids
14-11-2007, 03:55
Yes human and ape should be treated equal. Therefore, I declare that all people and primates be caged up for all to see and point at.

The whole opposable thumb thing makes it a WHOLE lot easier to point so if all the primates are locked up whos doing the seeing and pointing? And how are paws/tentecles locking the cages and turning the keys?
Hayteria
14-11-2007, 04:13
Sel Appa, are you saying that this study demonstrates that primates "should" be treated equally to humans? What about how, IIRC, monkeys don't have standards on the ages of those involved in sexual activity like ours, wouldn't that mean that if we're supposed to treat them equally to humans, that we should therefore acknowledge that they are paedophiles by human standards?
Dryks Legacy
14-11-2007, 05:41
Very similar + throws own crap = equal treatment? :confused:
Wilgrove
14-11-2007, 05:44
Very similar + throws own crap = equal treatment? :confused:

Hell we should all be brave enough to feel like slinging our own crap at our brothers and sisters! :)
Gartref
14-11-2007, 05:46
We should treat monkeys like humans. Let's kill them and take their land!
The Pastriarchy
14-11-2007, 05:50
One of the main problems with treating monkeys like humans is that basically all humans communicate through language, and except for some chimpanzees who have learned to sign, no non-human primates have been able to learn human language. And when the OP says humans and monkeys should be treated equally, that necessarily means that the monkeys should be integrated into human society. You can't do that without teaching them language.
Free Soviets
14-11-2007, 05:51
And when the OP says humans and monkeys should be treated equally, that necessarily means that the monkeys should be integrated into human society.

why?
H N Fiddlebottoms VIII
14-11-2007, 05:53
Yes we need to treat them equally by throwing them into factories to work for minimum wage, or since they can't use money, the amount of bananas equal to the wage they earn minus tax.

If they don't like working 8 hours a day and overtime? Then obviously they are just lazy and should be treated the same way we treat homeless people right now, or in another word, leave them on the street to die and pretend like they don't exist.
Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
The Pastriarchy
14-11-2007, 05:58
why?Well, uh, there's not much of another way to treat humans and other primates equally, is there? If we're really going to treat them equally, they should have the right to the same education that other humans in their respective countries do, and they should have the same opportunities for government health care and the like; but they should also have to pay taxes and abide by our laws.

Clearly, this is absurd. But it is equal. What definition of "equal" did you have in mind?
ClodFelter
14-11-2007, 06:50
So? Dogs get jealous too. I bet if you watched rats closely enough they would also, and nobody's going to treat a rat like a human being. Haven't you seen ratatouille?