NationStates Jolt Archive

Is the UK a country?
or to give it its full name "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"

I ask because i was just reading a thread where sombody was protesting that they werent british and they were in fact english and also those drop down box things where you choose your county almost always has United Kingdom as an option only rarely having separate bits England etc.

Do the english live on an island? no, but the british do lol..... actually

.....then when are you british? if you live in great britain? if you live in the UK or if you live in the british isles

with if i understand corectly
Great Britain = England, Scotland and Wales
United Kingdom = England, Scotland, Wales and Northen Ireland
British Isles = England, Scotland, Wales, Northen Ireland, The Republic of Ireland, The Isle of Man, Jersey, Gurnsey and some other islands
(Or this should probarbly be just listed as the Islands which are Great Britain, the whole of Ireland etc.)



lol i just looked it up on wikipedia (the source of all human knowledge) and it says england is just a constituent country and the united kingdom is a country (so its a country in a country but england isn't really a country)

never mind carry on with your lives, i sall post anyway you can discuss the confusingness of it all or point and laugh a (or correct) an errors i have made


i live in my house, on "road name" in the town of "nostalkersalowed", in yorkshire, england, great britain, united kingdom, british isles, eurpe, earth, our solar system (does it have a name by the way??), the milky way, the univrse





before you ask ono i'm not feelig ok............. :(:eek::p

That is tantamount to asking whether or not the United States is a freedom-fondling and tolerant Democracy, the Leader of the Free World and the Scourge of the Sinful Syndicates.

Yes it is a country.

with if i understand corectly
Great Britain = England, Scotland and Wales
United Kingdom = England, Scotland, Wales and Northen Ireland
British Isles = England, Scotland, Wales, Northen Ireland, The Republic of Ireland, The Isle of Man, Jersey, Gurnsey and some other islands
(Or this should probarbly be just listed as the Islands which are Great Britain, the whole of Ireland etc.)


Think that about sums it up.

Yes, the UK is a country, and yes, your grammar and writing coherence sucks.

Is the UK a country?

Yes. Basically, somebody insisting that they are from England, not the United Kingdom, is nationalistic nonsense that is tantamount to somebody insisting that they are from California, not the United States. Of course, if you say the same thing to a Scot he'll rip your face off, so although it's nationalistic nonsense it's still important to remember the distinction if you happen to be face-to-face with somebody who believes it.

*presses red button*

The UK? What UK? :D

It was a country, once... the Scots seem to be ending that now

The United Kingdom is a sovereign country made up of four constituent non-sovereign nations (or "countries"). England is one of them, and is the only one of the four not to be self-governing.

I am British and English. I would never say "I'm British, not English" or "I'm English, not British".

Something like that the UK is a nation, whilst England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are countries.

Most countries are nationstates. The UK is not, it is a state comprised of several nations.

The UK is a country. It can do all the typical things a country does, like signing international treatises, having an independent foreign policy, having a vote at the UN, having own armed forces, having a Head of the State (namely HBM).

Scotland, England, Northern Ireland and Wales are in a position similar to German Länder - only with the not-very-small difference that:
1-the UK predates the BRD by more than 2 centuries - so ideas about federations, unions etc were quite different
2-the UK is a monarchy

oh, about nation vs country:
"country" has more of a geographical/historical meaning, while "nation" (from lat. nascor, being born) is more about culture and ethnicity - so being welsh, scot, english or northern irish is a "nation".

I'm a British Anglo

Once upon a time it was correctly considered a union of four countries, but the ending of colonialism and the rise of the nationstate pretty much made Britain a coherent entity, just with more autonomy for the regions.

The Britons lived in Britain long before the English.

The Britons lived in Britain long before the English.

Even the Romans lived in Britain long before the English.

I am British and English. I would never say "I'm British, not English" or "I'm English, not British".

But you're French!:)

It was a country, once... the Scots seem to be ending that now

The Scots will never really 'end' that. For one, if they did leave the Union, it would just become the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland instead. Secondly, I doubt they would ever leave completely - many of their public services depend on the Union, if nothing else.

Really though, we should rename the place 'The Disunited Queendom of Not-so-Great Britain and North-Eastern Ireland'. :p

Great Britain = England, Scotland and Wales
United Kingdom = England, Scotland, Wales and Northen Ireland
British Isles = England, Scotland, Wales, Northen Ireland, The Republic of Ireland, The Isle of Man, Jersey, Gurnsey and some other islands
(Or this should probarbly be just listed as the Islands which are Great Britain, the whole of Ireland etc.)Isn't Great Britain (Grande Bretagne) originally only the geographical name for the largest of the British Isles? As opposed to Brittany (Bretagne), which shared the same indigenous population?

But you're French!:)

...and British.

Including a little bit of Welsh.

I'm not Scottish, but as a Brit, the Scots are my fellow countrymen. Except when they're playing against England. Or France. Or Wales.

It all gets very confusing. :p

with if i understand corectly
Great Britain = England, Scotland and Wales
United Kingdom = England, Scotland, Wales and Northen Ireland
British Isles = England, Scotland, Wales, Northen Ireland, The Republic of Ireland, The Isle of Man, Jersey, Gurnsey and some other islands
(Or this should probarbly be just listed as the Islands which are Great Britain, the whole of Ireland etc.)


Think that about sums it up.

I believe this dude has it right.

technically the Channel Islands are not included in the British Isles cuz they aren't part of the same archipelago. they are however classified as British Islands (as it says on my old passport) signifying possession by Britiain rather than geographically included. other than that, all the confusion is caused by petty nationalism. the english are british, as are the scots, the welsh, the northern irish and the inhabitants of the Isle of Man and the Bailiwicks of Jersey and Guernsey and the myriad other islands and random possessions of britain.

...and British.

Including a little bit of Welsh.

I'm not Scottish, but as a Brit, the Scots are my fellow countrymen. Except when they're playing against England. Or France. Or Wales.

It all gets very confusing. :p

Al Murray does not approve.

Something like that the UK is a nation, whilst England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are countries.
wrong way round.
Most countries are nationstates. The UK is not, it is a state comprised of several nations.

no, most countries are not nation-states. the current world order likes to pretend they are but their boundries are rarely coextensive with the historical territory of any nations. most states include at least one national group and nations rarely reside in one state. there are only about 4 or 5 true nation states in the world, one of them being Iceland, i forget the rest.

no, most countries are not nation-states.

Indeed.

The concept of the nation-state started in France, which is the archetypal nation-state: the boundaries of the state and the nation are seen as being the same. (Even in France, this is debatable. Many Corsicans and Basques, along with some Bretons, possible Alsacians and others would beg to differ, for example. And there are a great many regional languages in France.)

Iceland is indeed a nation-state. I suppose San Marino is too. And Bhutan, I think. And several others.

UK is as much a country as USA. Both are 'United' entities. Whether those parts think they're individual countries or not, is up to them. :p

no, most countries are not nation-states. the current world order likes to pretend they are but their boundries are rarely coextensive with the historical territory of any nations. most states include at least one national group and nations rarely reside in one state. there are only about 4 or 5 true nation states in the world, one of them being Iceland, i forget the rest.

No, I'm fairly sure most countries are nation-states.

England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are countries.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a country.

According to the PM's website (http://www.number10.gov.uk/output/Page823.asp), anyway.

No, I'm fairly sure most countries are nation-states.

then you are wrong, sorry.

A country is a country when it has its own national soccer team. England, Wales, Schotland and Northern Ireland all have their own national soccer team so they are countries. The UK, on the other hand, does not have a national soccer team so they cannot be considered a country.

:p

then you are wrong, sorry.

Nah.

Nah.

okay, fine, you got me. i'm not actually sorry.

UK is as much a country as USA. Both are 'United' entities. Whether those parts think they're individual countries or not, is up to them.

Actually, there's a big difference between the US and the UK. The US is composed of states. The UK is a single state, composed of four nations. The countries of the UK are recognised as such.

No, I'm fairly sure most countries are nation-states.

If you really believe that, I'd be curious to hear your definition of a nation, and of a state. And of a nation-state.

If you really believe that, I'd be curious to hear your definition of a nation, and of a state. And of a nation-state.

A nation is a form of cultural or social community. Nationhood is an ethical and philosophical doctrine and is the starting point for the ideology of nationalism. Members of a "nation" share a common identity, and usually a common origin, in the sense of ancestry, parentage or descent.

A state is a political association with effective dominion over a geographic area. It usually includes the set of institutions that claim the authority to make the rules that govern the people of the society in that territory, though its status as a state often depends in part on being recognized by a number of other states as having internal and external sovereignty over it.

A nation is a form of cultural or social community. Nationhood is an ethical and philosophical doctrine and is the starting point for the ideology of nationalism. Members of a "nation" share a common identity, and usually a common origin, in the sense of ancestry, parentage or descent.

A state is a political association with effective dominion over a geographic area. It usually includes the set of institutions that claim the authority to make the rules that govern the people of the society in that territory, though its status as a state often depends in part on being recognized by a number of other states as having internal and external sovereignty over it.


fine so far, and a nation state?

fine so far, and a nation state?

Traditionally, a nation-state is a specific form of state, which exists to provide a sovereign territory for a particular nation, and which derives its legitimacy from that function. The state is a political and geopolitical entity; the nation is a cultural and/or ethnic entity. The term "nation-state" implies that they geographically coincide, and this distinguishes the nation-state from the other types of state, which historically preceded it. If successfully implemented, this implies that the citizens share a common language, culture, and values — which was not the case in many historical states.

Traditionally, a nation-state is a specific form of state, which exists to provide a sovereign territory for a particular nation, and which derives its legitimacy from that function. The state is a political and geopolitical entity; the nation is a cultural and/or ethnic entity. The term "nation-state" implies that they geographically coincide, and this distinguishes the nation-state from the other types of state, which historically preceded it. If successfully implemented, this implies that the citizens share a common language, culture, and values — which was not the case in many historical states.

Indeed. I hope now you understand why most countries are not nation-states?

Indeed. I hope now you understand why most countries are not nation-states?

No, by that definition, most are. Most countries have a single identification based identity within them. "Australian","Italian","German","American","Polish". The UK is different because it's inhabitants describe themselves as "English","Welsh","Scottish","Irish".

I'm not going to argue about this, I'm dumb. No matter whether or not I know something, somebody's going to come along and tell me I'm wrong. I know 1+1=2, but also know somebody's going to come along and tell me that it's just not true.

No, by that definition, most are. Most countries have a single identification based identity within them. "Australian","Italian","German","American","Polish". The UK is different because it's inhabitants describe themselves as "English","Welsh","Scottish","Irish".

How would you describe an American when we are a melting pot of different nations?

No, by that definition, most are. Most countries have a single identification based identity within them. "Australian","Italian","German","American","Polish". The UK is different because it's inhabitants describe themselves as "English","Welsh","Scottish","Irish".

You have states which contain a variety of ethnic / national groups, and "nations" which are split between states. That's what you missed. Take the Kurds, for example. Or the Armenians, many of whom live outside the boundaries of the Armenian state. Ireland is another case in point. Hawaaians form a nation by most definitions, but are incorporated within the US. There is one Korean nation, but it is split into two states. Australia contains a large variety of Aboriginal nations. Germany -just like the US, Nigeria, Russia, the FSM...- may be seen as a nation, but has states (Länder) that have significant autonomy (whereas France, the archetypal nation-state, is a unitary republic rather than a federal one). African state boundaries do not correspond to traditional identity groups. And so on, and so on... Your point is not entirely incorrect, but it is very incomplete.

No, by that definition, most are. Most countries have a single identification based identity within them. "Australian","Italian","German","American","Polish". The UK is different because it's inhabitants describe themselves as "English","Welsh","Scottish","Irish".

I'm not going to argue about this, I'm dumb. No matter whether or not I know something, somebody's going to come along and tell me I'm wrong. I know 1+1=2, but also know somebody's going to come along and tell me that it's just not true.
none of those have a "single identification based identity" in them.

It was a country, once... the Scots seem to be ending that now
o0o0o0o0o... phear the Scots! :p

We’re harmless really.

Unless you steal our Irn Bru.

none of those have a "single identification based identity" in them.

Whatever. I'm dumb, I know nothing.

o0o0o0o0o... phear the Scots! :p

We’re harmless really.

Unless you steal our Irn Bru.

aye, no waiting for a referendum in that case, it'll be dawn raids over the border and their cities'll be in ruins by breakfast.

Whatever. I'm dumb, I know nothing.

aww, well you just been handed some knowledge on a plate, it's a start, eh ;)

Whatever. I'm dumb, I know nothing.

You're not necessarily dumb (except if you don't want to learn or question yourself); you just lack knowledge of certain facts. Which isn't a flaw if you try to remedy it.

That's what we're here for. ;)

aww, well you just been handed some knowledge on a plate, it's a start, eh ;)

Oh, no. I have zero capability for learning. Seriously, try me. Ask me the blindingly obvious and I won't know it.

Oh, no. I have zero capability for learning. Seriously, try me. Ask me the blindingly obvious and I won't know it.

Do you have any capacity for learning?


ZOMG PARADOX!

Oh, no. I have zero capability for learning. Seriously, try me. Ask me the blindingly obvious and I won't know it.

hmmm, what's the chemical formula for ferrous oxide then?

Do you have any capacity for learning?


ZOMG PARADOX!

...

What?

hmmm, what's the chemical formula for ferrous oxide then?

...

Frank?

...

Frank?

:lol: :p

...

What?

Neat parry. :p

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/8269/britainmapsmall1ijrm9.jpg

:lol: :p

That's the great thing about being stupid; there's no wrong answers.

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/8269/britainmapsmall1ijrm9.jpg

*saves for future use*

aye, no waiting for a referendum in that case, it’ll be dawn raids over the border and their cities’ll be in ruins by breakfast.
I’m gonna bring my personal chib.



Naw, I don’t have a chib.

I’m gonna bring my personal chib.



Naw, I don’t have a chib.

no bother, i'm sure you can find a broken bottle or something on the way.

No, by that definition, most are. Most countries have a single identification based identity within them. "Australian","Italian","German","American","Polish". The UK is different because it's inhabitants describe themselves as "English", "Welsh" , "Scottish" , "Irish".


Depending on the situation... subjects of the UK describe themselves as "british" when asked about their nationality while abroad - like when showing their passports at the customs or checking in at hotels. (and it's "its inhabitants")
Also, as for identities, "Germany" and "Italy" are generally quite divided internally... a Sardinian is very likely to describe himself as a "Sardinian", so do german-speaking Südtiroler, or Bavarese.
To define a country, it's better to keep it on the general standards about international affairs, and, by such standards, the UK is a country and England isn't.

no bother, i’m sure you can find a broken bottle or something on the way.
I resent this Edinbugger slander!

;)

So what would the flag of the UK be without Scotland?

I suggest this. ;)

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/662/flaguknoscotland3uq0.png

Well, seeing as Wales is neither technically a country nor is it represented on the flag, it would be the same but without the blue. Going back to original post that spawned the thread... my take on it is that Wales is a nation without a country and now that Scotland (and Wales) is ceding more and more from being British, it seems that U.K.G.B.N.I. is increasingly a country without a nation. British, as a national identity, is and always has been defined by the English ideal of what it ought to be - yes it includes scottishness and welshness - but the terms by which is is and has been defined are disinctly english (apart from NI where being british is being 'Not Irish' - without getting too deep into a very very very complicated issue) hence the recent crisis in English identity, or better put, the recreation of an identity which was lost to its having merged with another some 300 years ago.

One enourmous piece of evidence of this one can point to are the images of the 1966 English World Cup victory. If you look at any image, the only flags you will see are British and German. There is not a cross of St. George to be seen in the whole stadium whereas when scotland played football during the same period, far more St. Andrews flags can be seen.

As a matter of personal opinion on the matter of scottish independence (I personally consider myself Anglo-Irish, having been born in Liverpool to Irish parents - a whole other kettle of fish) I wonder how most English people have managed to convince themselves that the issue of 'Scottish' independence is somehow an issue of English independence... One argument being, based on this, that any refferendum on the independence of any of the parts of the union should be voted for by all it's members. Unfair in my view, as the refferendum would then be about whether or not the others want the nation in question to be independent, rather than whether or not said nation wants to be independent, which was the reason for the refferendum in the first place.

This all goes further to demonstrate that Britain is thought of in terms of England as, correct me if I'm wrong, there are two other constituent bodies that add to England to make up the union.

In short, nationalism in all its forms, sucks. People being overzealous about it has caused as many problems, wars and deaths as those who are overzealous about religion. Ideas about 'them' and 'us', if taken to their logical extreme will, without exception cause such things as: Wars, Crusades, Jihads, Terrorism, Wars on terror(ism), Empires, etc...

Why can't we all just be human beings and put flowers in our hair, man?

The Britons lived in Britain long before the English.

The Aenglish if you want to be historically correct, since, if memory serves, it was the Aengles who prevailed over the extant British kingdoms and the other Saxon tribes. Under a king named Cerdic if anybody cares; there is a town called Cerdiceford south of Bristol in the heartlands of old Dumnonia.

Oh, and I consider myself English. Despite being ethnically celtic, I dislike the anachronistic, tired and jaded notion of Great Britain immensely; not only does it help Labour immeasurably, but it also serves little purpose given the mutual hostility of most involved.