NationStates Jolt Archive

10th November 2007
When the U.S. Navy deploys a battle fleet on exercises, it takes the security of its aircraft carriers very seriously indeed.

At least a dozen warships provide a physical guard while the technical wizardry of the world's only military superpower offers an invisible shield to detect and deter any intruders.
That is the theory. Or, rather, was the theory.

American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.

According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.

One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.

The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=492804&in_page_id=1811

I guess some Countries are going to buy Chinese Subs now.

It's probably because they weren't really monitoring for foreign submarines; they assumed all other traffic would be out of the area where exercises were to be held and so were taken by surprise. I can't say I'm too worried about Chinese submarines taking down American ships in a combat situation. If anything, that was an incredibly dumb move by the Chinese...I can only imagine what would have happened if we would've opened fire on it.

Maybe a little bit of failure would be good for the U.S. keep us on our toes, keep tax payers working hard

It's probably because they weren't even monitoring for stuff because they assumed all other traffic would be out of the area where exercises were to be held. I can't say I'm too worried about Chinese submarines taking down American ships in a combat situation.

Because you sympathize with the Chinese and want the Americans to fail...*malignant squint*

A Collins-class would have done it better.

It's probably because they weren't really monitoring for foreign submarines; they assumed all other traffic would be out of the area where exercises were to be held and so were taken by surprise. I can't say I'm too worried about Chinese submarines taking down American ships in a combat situation. If anything, that was an incredibly dumb move by the Chinese...I can only imagine what would have happened if we would've opened fire on it.

Nothing good.

The article was just a touch sensationalistic. Little wonder, it was from the Daily Mail. The article was also very vague. It states that the submarine sailed "...within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier." Many Submarine launched missiles have a range of well over 100 miles.

I think this is a good thing. I'd rather have a Diesel-Electric pop up near a carrier during peacetime then a time of conflict.

'sides, Diesel-Electric subs are obsolete anyway. The next best thing to nuclear propulsion are those air-independent electric subs the Germans are building.

The article was just a touch sensationalistic. Little wonder, it was from the Daily Mail. The article was also very vague. It states that the submarine sailed "...within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier." Many Submarine launched missiles have a range of well over 100 miles.

I think this is a good thing. I'd rather have a Diesel-Electric pop up near a carrier during peacetime then a time of conflict.

'sides, Diesel-Electric subs are obsolete anyway. The next best thing to nuclear propulsion are those air-independent electric subs the Germans are building.

Diesel-electrics run on electric power underwater and can operate more quietly then a nuclear sub. D/Es are still viable for most conditions that most navies are likely to face. The only thing in the near future likely to make D/E subs obsolete is peak oil.

And those German subs (Type 212) are diesel/electrics too, just with a hydrogen fuel cell added.

And those German subs (Type 212) are diesel/electrics too, just with a hydrogen fuel cell added.

Which enables them to discard the principle weakness of a Diesel-Electric, the need to float just under the surface to recharge their batteries. Running on a hydrogen fuel cell enables them to be the ultimate short range killing machines.

Which enables them to discard the principle weakness of a Diesel-Electric, the need to float just under the surface to recharge their batteries. Running on a hydrogen fuel cell enables them to be the ultimate short range killing machines.

Yes, it's an advantage, but let's keep in mind, it's a D/E sub with a new (and very useful) toy. :)

Does anyone remember a long time ago when the Chinese took our spy plane and the crew hostage? Why didn't we do that with their sub?

Yes, it's an advantage, but let's keep in mind, it's a D/E sub with a new (and very useful) toy. :)

But it's much more then that. It's a Diesel-Electric without the diesel! It sheds it's largest liability, it's main limiting factor. Being air-independent makes it many times more effective then the standard Diesel-Electric.

Does anyone remember a long time ago when the Chinese took our spy plane and the crew hostage? Why didn't we do that with their sub?

Due to a difference between sovereign airspace and international waters.

When a Chinese submarine pops up in NY harbour, I suspect it will be 'taken hostage' as well.

Due to a difference between sovereign airspace and international waters.

When a Chinese submarine pops up in NY harbour, I suspect it will be 'taken hostage' as well.

*snickers* You do realize that we could've just taken the sub and claim that it was a threat to International Security, or something like that, right?

Due to a difference between sovereign land and international waters.

When a Chinese submarine pops up in NY harbour, I suspect it will be 'taken hostage' as well.

Yeah, you can't just seize a ship and crew in International Waters. I think that's called "Piracy".

*snickers* You do realize that we could've just taken the sub and claim that it was a threat to International Security, or something like that, right?

Totally, more stuff like this should happen between opposing forces for laughs :)

What's the worst that could happen eh?

I'm not sure why the Chinese would do this (the submarine), it just seems a little pointless.

Yeah, you can't just seize a ship and crew in International Waters. I think that's called "Piracy".

Moar piracy!

I'm not sure why the Chinese would do this (the submarine),this can change -some countries- perception about Chinese technology.
It is not going to hurt their industry.

Isn't the place where the Chinese submarine resurfaced within or at least near Chinese territory? What's the point of having a submarine without playing with it? Besides, that's what happens when America calls for a big party near China and China is not invited.

this can change -some countries- perception about Chinese technology.
It is not going to hurt their industry.

Oh, it's advertising - clever ad then :)

Buy the NEW and IMPROVED submarine from China Industries - ChinaSubs, for when you just want to pop by and say hello

*warning, China is not responsible for any World Wars undertaken by those who purchase ChinaSubs

Keep away from children
Batteries not included

Oh, it's advertising - clever ad then :)

Buy the NEW and IMPROVED submarine from China Industries - ChinaSubs, for when you just want to pop by and say hello

*warning, China is not responsible for any World Wars undertaken by those who purchase ChinaSubs

Keep away from children
Batteries not includedyeah.. :D

I bet Venezuela will stop buying from Spain, and start buying from China.
Learning lessons from Walmart ;)

It's probably because they weren't really monitoring for foreign submarines; they assumed all other traffic would be out of the area where exercises were to be held and so were taken by surprise. I can't say I'm too worried about Chinese submarines taking down American ships in a combat situation. If anything, that was an incredibly dumb move by the Chinese...I can only imagine what would have happened if we would've opened fire on it.
Lol, so what you mean by 'combat situation' is that when the Chinese call up an hour beforehand and say 'Hey, where going to attack you're fleet at X time and at Y location, so make sure you're ready!' :rolleyes:

Lol, so what you mean by 'combat situation' is that when the Chinese call up an hour beforehand and say 'Hey, where going to attack you're fleet at X time and at Y location, so make sure you're ready!' :rolleyes:

Armies like to follow scripts and anyone who doesn't follow those is cheating.

Planned over a two-year period, at a cost of $250 million, the game involved 13,500 personnel from all four services—Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines—who waged mock war in 17 simulation locations and nine live-force training sites...

...Van Riper complained about Millennium Challenge 02, writing that, "Instead of a free-play, two-sided game … it simply became a scripted exercise." The conduct of the game did not allow "for the concepts of rapid decisive operations, effects-based operations, or operational net assessment to be properly assessed. … It was in actuality an exercise that was almost entirely scripted to ensure a Blue 'win.' "...

...Robert Oakley, a retired U.S. ambassador who played the Red civilian leader, told the Army Times that Van Riper was "out-thinking" Blue Force from the first day of the exercise...

...At one point in the game, when Blue's fleet entered the Persian Gulf, he sank some of the ships with suicide-bombers in speed boats. (At that point, the managers stopped the game, "refloated" the Blue fleet, and resumed play.)...

...the game's managers remanded some of his moves as improper and simply blocked others from being carried out. According to the Army Times summary, "Exercise officials denied him the opportunity to use his own tactics and ideas against Blue, and on several occasions directed [Red Force] not to use certain weapons systems against Blue. It even ordered him to reveal the location of Red units."

Finally, Van Riper quit the game in protest, so as not to be associated with what would be misleading results.

Link (http://www.slate.com/id/2080814/)

I can just imagine how it went...

*U.S.S. Kitty Hawk is in the exercise when the sub pops up*

Kitty Hawk Captain: What the fuck?!

Chinese Sub: Oh, hi, we were wondering if we could borrow a cup of sugar. We're all out.

I really suck at this humour stuff...

But what if it was:

Chinese Sub: Wok house delivery. Who ordered the chow fun set for $20,000?

I can just imagine how it went...

*U.S.S. Kitty Hawk is in the exercise when the sub pops up*

Kitty Hawk Captain: What the fuck?!

I really suck at this humour stuff...

Chinese Sub: I knew I shoulda made a left turn at Albuquerque.

I can just imagine how it went...

*U.S.S. Kitty Hawk is in the exercise when the sub pops up*

Kitty Hawk Captain: What the fuck?!

Chinese Sub: Oh, hi, we were wondering if we could borrow a cup of sugar. We're all out.

I really suck at this humour stuff...

Chinese Sub: sorry we had a woman reading the map
or

Chinese Sub: sorry we never let a woman steer the sub again

Armies like to follow scripts and anyone who doesn't follow those is cheating.

Link (http://www.slate.com/id/2080814/)

What a bulls*** waste off of money, no wonder your navy is out of practice. It's a military force not a wrestling match, practising quick and creative thinking is very important.

...funny...this would seem like big news. BBC, VOA, and Fox don't mention it at all

What a bulls*** waste off of money, no wonder your navy is out of practice. It's a military force not a wrestling match, practising quick and creative thinking is very important.
that why we kick their ass in war games

It's probably because they weren't really monitoring for foreign submarines; they assumed all other traffic would be out of the area where exercises were to be held and so were taken by surprise. I can't say I'm too worried about Chinese submarines taking down American ships in a combat situation. If anything, that was an incredibly dumb move by the Chinese...I can only imagine what would have happened if we would've opened fire on it.


1.If the US navy doesn't monitor for foreign subs, that's quite an idiotic behaviour, expecially near China...

2.Maybe the Chinese were actively looking for some kind of international incident - after all, the US military are notoriously a bit trigger-happy, aren't they?

3.Anyway, now the US have been warned that China is able to pass through one of their fleet undetected. China wants to claim its place as superpower, that is - see also the North Korean nuclear issue.

Armies like to follow scripts and anyone who doesn't follow those is cheating.


Back in WW2, the Nazis found quite difficult planning their moves against the US Army's doctrine because "ze US generals don't even read zeir military doktrine manuals, scheiße!"

...
Looks that things have changed since then: maybe that's why the US don't win a major war since Korea...

Haha, I love when this sort of thing happens. All this fancy on-paper stuff, and then shit goes wrong on the day.

Good on the Chinese captain for having the cojones. :p

I like 'peek a boe' behaviour.

Sure, when it is making USA their pants wet. :p

Clearly the Chinese have learned some ninja skills from their Japanese neighbours.

Yeah, you can't just seize a ship and crew in International Waters. I think that's called "Piracy".

http://www.bloggerheads.com/images/bush_pirate.jpg

I've wanted to use that image for ages :D

its a win-win situation. China gets to brag about what it could do to the evil americans and the navy gets to go to congress and say OMG LOOK WHAT HAPPENED WE GONNA GET RAPED MOAR MONEY

I'm not sure why the Chinese would do this (the submarine), why?... how about..
China wants to claim its place as superpower.

its a win-win situation. China gets to brag about what it could do to the evil americans and the navy gets to go to congress and say OMG LOOK WHAT HAPPENED WE GONNA GET RAPED MOAR MONEY

LOL. QFT.

I've wanted to use that image for ages :D

:D

You win the thread.

I'm waiting for the MPAA/RIAA special agents to bust in screaming, "What was that about piracy!?!?!?" until they realized we meant real life war boat piracy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=492804&in_page_id=1811

I guess some Countries are going to buy Chinese Subs now.

Not too surprising.... During my stint in the USN as a submariner, we spent several days doing under-hull surveys of a Russian battle-group without them ever detecting us... Most nuke boats are hard to detect, passively, till you're almost on top of them, and many diesel boats are even quieter. And it's generally not standard practice to use active sonar, unless you're hunting down a submarine... Not to mention surface-ship sonar isn't all that effective... It's pretty easy for modern subs to "hide" from both active and passive sonar systems mounted on surface ships.

Not too surprising.... During my stint in the USN as a submariner, we spent several days doing under-hull surveys of a Russian battle-group without them ever detecting us... Most nuke boats are hard to detect, passively, till you're almost on top of them, and many diesel boats are even quieter. And it's generally not standard practice to use active sonar, unless you're hunting down a submarine... Not to mention surface-ship sonar isn't all that effective... It's pretty easy for modern subs to "hide" from both active and passive sonar systems mounted on surface ships.

Yeah, don't disel subs have the ability to rest motionless in the water, which makes them untraceable unless you actively ping? Which they really can't do with their own subs around....makes navigating quite difficult, I'd imagine, what with all those diffrent pings coming in from the dozens or so ships and other submarienes?

Yeah, don't disel subs have the ability to rest motionless in the water, which makes them untraceable unless you actively ping? Which they really can't do with their own subs around....makes navigating quite difficult, I'd imagine, what with all those diffrent pings coming in from the dozens or so ships and other submarienes?

I'm not sure about that, but a nuclear sub has turbines that are running to generate power, plus pumps to move cooling water through the reactor.

I'm not sure about that, but a nuclear sub has turbines that are running to generate power, plus pumps to move cooling water through the reactor.

The turbines are pretty quiet. I mean, it's just water moving back and forth. And the pumps are only required when more power is needed, like when a captain desires a higher speed.

Totally, more stuff like this should happen between opposing forces for laughs :)

What's the worst that could happen eh?

I'm not sure why the Chinese would do this (the submarine), it just seems a little pointless.



Moar piracy!


Well, The US did it to the USSR all throughout the cold war.

And the USSR did it more then likely to us as well.

Also, why would the battle group be looking for subs when that was not their mission? If they wanted to look for subs, they could probably find it, especially if they had outside support from P-3s and attack subs.

A Collins-class would have done it better.

Absolutely. We would have surfaced and yelled obscenities at them! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6228342.stm)

I'm mystified as to why the Chinese would do this? If their subs can do that, why boast about it?

Just having a laugh, perhaps. That arms race is in it's infancy ...

The turbines are pretty quiet. I mean, it's just water moving back and forth. And the pumps are only required when more power is needed, like when a captain desires a higher speed.

Yeah, on US subs the turbines have three designated speeds....
1. High
2. Low
3. Reduced Frequency

Typically the only time the pumps are in "high" is when at flank... Low is used most of the time, and reduced frequency is used when running silent (the pump speed is regulated where sypathetic vibration is virtually zero).

Turbine noise is not much of an issue, as sound from it, along with from the reduction gears (a ships equivalent to a "transmission" in a car, just MUCH MUCH BIGGER [on my 688i I served aboard the unit was about 2 stories tall, and 3 if you count the lubrication pumps and reservoir]), are all filtered out by a special coupling on the propulsion shaft before it exits the pressure hull.

Also most US nuke subs, especially near the end of the 688i run, along with the Seawolf and the Virginias use a shrouded screw, which also reduces much of the propulsion noise from the ship.


Yeah, don't disel subs have the ability to rest motionless in the water, which makes them untraceable unless you actively ping? Which they really can't do with their own subs around....makes navigating quite difficult, I'd imagine, what with all those diffrent pings coming in from the dozens or so ships and other submarienes?

Nukes, at least US nuke subs can remain motionless to, coolant water is not dependent on motion, there is a pumping system to handle that, and since it's low speed, it's pretty quiet...

Active sonar is not used for navigation much, except for doing bottom soundings, or in the case of subs with hardened sails, under ice operations (in which case special sonar units are used specifically for that task).

I'm mystified as to why the Chinese would do this? If their subs can do that, why boast about it?

Just having a laugh, perhaps. That arms race is in it's infancy ...

To show that they can.... We've done it before, it's just not usually touted in the media... At least THEY popped up to show they were there... Typically US operations like that, the sub merely does some "underhull surveys", and then pops off... In fact, US subs have been known to sneak up on our own surface ships, take pictures of their screws, and then at a later on send the pictures to the surface ships CO (my CO did it with the USS America)... Keeps them on their toes...

There are some tricks that can be used to hide from surface ships - isn't there some thermal layer that reflects sound and makes any sub hiding below it almost undetectable?

Anyway, this sub captain clearly knows his stuff. If I were the Chinese navy brass, I'd give this guy an Akula or Alfa for his next command.

Well, The US did it to the USSR all throughout the cold war.

And the USSR did it more then likely to us as well.

Also, why would the battle group be looking for subs when that was not their mission? If they wanted to look for subs, they could probably find it, especially if they had outside support from P-3s and attack subs.

Yes and no; Russians built their subs on entirely different principles because of their lower tech base. Their Alphas and Deltas are designed to burn hard from one place to another and then sit like a hole in the water because they couldn't make their subs run as silent as ours. While you're doing 30 knots in an Alpha, you could drive over a boombox and not hear it. By contrast, just about any sub at 0 knots and run by a competant commander with a knowledge of the local sea will be virtually undetectable except if you're sonar lashing the area, and even then a good commander can make his ship look like a big rock.

The kicker here is whether or not the Chinese could repeat their feat under combat conditions and maneuvering for a kill. I'm willing to be it'd be a much more tricky feat, and they'd likely hurt or kill an outlying destroyer and be promptly blown apart than get in on the carrier. Even more, the short range of the d/e becomes a problem when the carrier can attack from 500 miles out.

There are some tricks that can be used to hide from surface ships - isn't there some thermal layer that reflects sound and makes any sub hiding below it almost undetectable?

Anyway, this sub captain clearly knows his stuff. If I were the Chinese navy brass, I'd give this guy an Akula or Alfa for his next command.

Yep, thermal layers deflect sound down their channel (you can think of them as undersea "rivers")... Similar effect to the way light passes through a strand of fiber-optic cable, reflecting inside the channel; the effect is that you can't hear anything that is "inside" the thermal layer... And even active sonar reflected from the subs hull would travel down this channel rather than being reflected generally back towards the source ship (making even active pinging of little use)... We would look for these layers in different regions of the ocean with a special device launched from the same system we use to launch countermeasures, and form what is known as an SVP (Sound-Velocity Profile) plot of that oceanic region, before going into operational status, this SVP would be used to supplement the programming of the Mk-48's sonar system, the combat-control system, the ships own sonar system as well as a guide for tactical maneuvering (such as hiding the boat in those layers).

I'm still curious as to exactly how close that sub got. The article looks like little more than jingoistic paranoia trying to sell papers. I really don't care if it popped up over the horizon from the carrier, but I do care if it popped up in the middle of the carrier group.

It says it 'viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier'. That puts it within what... say 50 kilometers away?

Not exactly a panic.