NationStates Jolt Archive

Mrs. Celtlund, who is also a veteran and I would like to thank all the U.S. veterans and active duty members for their service and the sacrifices they and their families have made for our country. It is an honor and a privilege to have served with you and to have served out country.

I too would like to thank and honor all the Veterans today for serving their country in a time of needs. I have an uncle, dad, and a grandpa who are veterans today. Thank you Veterans, for defending our country and doing what a few of us have the courage to do.

*raises a glass for them*

Thank you so much all veterans

Thank you so much all veteransThanks for what? Killing because they were ordered to?

Thanks for what? Killing because they were ordered to?
Dude, you got worms all over the floor. I told you to be careful with that can opener.

Thanks for what? Killing because they were ordered to?

Have some respect, would ya.

Thank you veterans, for serving our country.

Thank you Veterans for fighting for our great nation. You've secured our existince, promoted our interests, liberated half the world and ensured our prosperity.

I couldn't be any prouder of those who have fought for this country, both living and passed.:)

Thanks for what? Killing because they were ordered to?

All those silly people being grateful to other people who have sacrificed a significant part of their lives and humanity so that we can ask questions like that...what are they thinking? We might as well be grateful to the people who are ordered to clean the public toilets that we use, or to the people who protect us from crime, or to the people who try to stop fires from raging out of control and burning our homes down.

All those silly people being grateful to other people who have sacrificed a significant part of their lives and humanity so that we can ask questions like that...what are they thinking? We might as well be grateful to the people who are ordered to clean the public toilets that we use, or to the people who protect us from crime, or to the people who try to stop fires from raging out of control and burning our homes down.

And what of the very same people who sacrificed a significant part of their humanity so that we civilians could be the sacrifice?

Sure, soldiers might protect us in a war. However, can you guess who the enemy is?

Soldiers!

I have a hard time being grateful towards people who are willing to shoot me.

I would like to thank the veterans of the US for their sacrifices (of time, sometimes their families, and sometimes their life). I'd also like to, as a federal employee, thank them for having tomorrow off.

Have some respect, would ya.
Respect is for those who have earned it. Killers are not respectable.

Thank you veterans, for serving our country....by killing the folks in other countries.

Thanks for what? Killing because they were ordered to?

Funny coming from a supporter of genocide.

Respect is for those who have earned it. Killers are not respectable.

...by killing the folks in other countries.

Well if it were not for armed forces no doubt some other country would have invaded and taken over. And guess what you would most likly be shot for your beliefs. Here you are free to insult the people protecting your freedom.

And what of the very same people who sacrificed a significant part of their humanity so that we civilians could be the sacrifice?

Sure, soldiers might protect us in a war. However, can you guess who the enemy is?

Soldiers!

I have a hard time being grateful towards people who are willing to shoot me.

I don't have such a hard time with it. The soldiers on each side are giving up precious life for the people they're pledged to defend. I'm grateful that there are soldiers out there trying to defend the people of the countries that my country might even be at war with. People in those countries warrant protection too, not just me. They're people with dreams and desires and hopes, families and friends and pets. People are people everywhere, and I hold myself to be no more intrinsically worthy of not being shot than they are.

The real tragedy is not that there are people willing to defend us, but that we and our political leaders so often make it necessary for them to do so.

Respect is for those who have earned it. Killers are not respectable.
.


Your right, while we're at it, we can stop respecting cops who have had the audacity to shoot a person! *end sarcasm* Soldiers will have more respect than you will ever earn in your entire life.

Yeah, before I thank people I would like to see their service record. I can't be thanking any war criminals now can I?

So until then, Thanks to all those soldiers who only fought to protect and did so with the least amount of force necessary and only out of mercy and not out of vengeance.

All those silly people being grateful to other people who have sacrificed a significant part of their lives and humanity so that we can ask questions like that...what are they thinking? We might as well be grateful to the people who are ordered to clean the public toilets that we use, or to the people who protect us from crime, or to the people who try to stop fires from raging out of control and burning our homes down.

Yeah, but notice we don't have a Janitor's Day, a Police Veterans Day or a National Firefighter's Day. At least, they might have days, but are not treated with the same level of respect and reverence as veterans. Why not? If it's really about people who sacrifice much of their lives for the sake of others, shouldn't there be national holidays for those professions too?

Yeah, but notice we don't have a Janitor's Day, a Police Veterans Day or a National Firefighter's Day. At least, they might have days, but are not treated with the same level of respect and reverence as veterans. Why not? If it's really about people who sacrifice much of their lives for the sake of others, shouldn't there be national holidays for those professions too?

I would certainly like to see more respect of those days, and of lots of other celebratory days. I don't expect it to happen anytime soon, but it'd be nice.

Yeah, but notice we don't have a Janitor's Day, a Police Veterans Day or a National Firefighter's Day. At least, they might have days, but are not treated with the same level of respect and reverence as veterans. Why not? If it's really about people who sacrifice much of their lives for the sake of others, shouldn't there be national holidays for those professions too?

Veterans Day was originally Armistice Day (which it still is in Europe, and Remembrance Day in the Commonwealth) which was to signify the end of World War 1 (on the 11th hour, of the 11th day, of the 11th month). After World War 2 it was changed to Veterans Day in the United States to honor the memory of Veterans who have died in wars, and to thank Veterans who are still alive.

Respect is for those who have earned it. Killers are not respectable.

...by killing the folks in other countries.

I'm not sure why I'm wasting my breath on this.... probably because my fingers don't breathe.

I enjoy messing with your head most of the time, but this time you are treading on my feet so I'm going to try just once to disturb your comfort in a more lucid way:

I'm a veteran. I've never shot anybody and I had the sort of job where I never had to. My job was to protect my shipmates from being killed. They relied on me, my skill at my job and my judgement to keep every man and woman on my ship and ultimately in my battle group alive.

Can you imagine the responsibility of knowing that you training and being able to do your job to the absolute best of your ability meant the difference between people you cared about living or dying? I as fortunate in that I never had to defend against an actual missile attack, but confident that I had the ability should the need arise.

Now extend that to every veteran. No soldier wants to kill anyone. They do what their training instructs them to do because if they don't, people they care about could die. They sacrifice a lot for the people they serve.

Don't blame the people who do the deed, blame the people who send them to do it. Soldiers don't have the liberty to question their leaders.

Last time I checked, the holiday is Veteran's Day, not Push Your Stupidly Biased Opinions On Everyone Else Day.

Right wingers, left wingers, leave it at the door, celebrate the men and women who have served, whether voluntarily or involuntarily, their nation when it needed their service the most, it's the least you can do for them.

I'm not sure why I'm wasting my breath on this.... probably because my fingers don't breathe.

I enjoy messing with your head most of the time, but this time you are treading on my feet so I'm going to try just once to disturb your comfort in a more lucid way:

I'm a veteran. I've never shot anybody and I had the sort of job where I never had to. My job was to protect my shipmates from being killed. They relied on me, my skill at my job and my judgement to keep every man and woman on my ship and ultimately in my battle group alive.

Can you imagine the responsibility of knowing that you training and being able to do your job to the absolute best of your ability meant the difference between people you cared about living or dying? I as fortunate in that I never had to defend against an actual missile attack, but confident that I had the ability should the need arise.

Now extend that to every veteran. No soldier wants to kill anyone. They do what their training instructs them to do because if they don't, people they care about could die. They sacrifice a lot for the people they serve.

Don't blame the people who do the deed, blame the people who send them to do it. Soldiers don't have the liberty to question their leaders.

*gives entire cheese cake*

Want to thank all the veterans here on NSG and all around.


As far as those that want to make a political statement. When you are done with your rant step down from the high horse and thank a veteran for allowing you to say what you want.

I don't have such a hard time with it. The soldiers on each side are giving up precious life for the people they're pledged to defend. I'm grateful that there are soldiers out there trying to defend the people of the countries that my country might even be at war with. People in those countries warrant protection too, not just me. They're people with dreams and desires and hopes, families and friends and pets. People are people everywhere, and I hold myself to be no more intrinsically worthy of not being shot than they are.

The real tragedy is not that there are people willing to defend us, but that we and our political leaders so often make it necessary for them to do so.

Would it be necessary for them to defend us if they refused to attack?

Right wingers, left wingers, leave it at the door, celebrate the men and women who have served, whether voluntarily or involuntarily, their nation when it needed their service the most, it's the least you can do for them.

No. I will not celebrate people merely based on the fact that they are soldiers.

Like everyone else, they have to earn it. Firefighters earn it regularly, but not every firefighter deserves it. Some soldiers earn it, many, however, do not.

Want to thank all the veterans here on NSG and all around.


As far as those that want to make a political statement. When you are done with your rant step down from the high horse and thank a veteran for allowing you to say what you want.

Thank a veteran for oppressing my rights too.

It goes both ways.

Thank a veteran for oppressing my rights too.

It goes both ways.

Where is it you are living where your rights are oppressed?

Your right, while we're at it, we can stop respecting cops who have had the audacity to shoot a person! *end sarcasm* Soldiers will have more respect than you will ever earn in your entire life.Soldiers are just drones following orders. No US veteran of any post-WW2 war deserves respect, as they only were the tools to enforce political agendas. Soldiers fighting in pointless wars are not veterans but criminals, and since WW2 the US have only engaged in pointless wars.

Where is it you are living where your rights are oppressed?

Here a number of places where soldiers have oppressed rights in the past, present and/or future:

US
Ireland
Denmark
Norway
Finland
Eastern European states
France
Germany
Spain
Poland
Iraq
Iran
Pakistan
India
China
Japan
Burma

Do I need to go on?

No. I will not celebrate people merely based on the fact that they are soldiers.

Like everyone else, they have to earn it. Firefighters earn it regularly, but not every firefighter deserves it. Some soldiers earn it, many, however, do not.

Technically, the term 'veteran' constitutes one has served in a wartime military position.

But, regardless, if you are not going to celebrate Veteran's Day, why bother posting in a thread obviously devoted to the celebrating of that holiday?

Would one show up to a Christmas party and denounce the holiday as a commercialized venture in capitalism, or go to Halloween Party and protest the consumption of candy as dangerous to your dental health?

We are aware that most veterans aren't saints, and some are even less so than others, why bother to point out a fact that most are already aware of? Would you protest Mother's Day because some mothers are abusive and negligent?

Thanks for what? Killing because they were ordered to?
Fuck off :)

These people risk their lives for their chums, and I don't think any of them outside of complete nutters actually enjoy killing people, they just do as ordered, or to save their friends' lives.

Give it a rest, squire.

Technically, the term 'veteran' constitutes one has served in a wartime military position.

And they could be anything from heroes to war criminals. To paint with such a wide brush as celebrating them all is wrong.

But, regardless, if you are not going to celebrate Veteran's Day, why bother posting in a thread obviously devoted to the celebrating of that holiday?

Because it's not right to celebrate it. If other people are going to celebrate it publicly, I will denounce it publicly.

Would one show up to a Christmas party and denounce the holiday as a commercialized venture in capitalism, or go to Halloween Party and protest the consumption of candy as dangerous to your dental health?

If you were invited and appalled at what you saw? Yes. This happens to be a forum, not a private party, which means I am "invited" and I am certainly appalled.

We are aware that most veterans aren't saints, and some are even less so than others, why bother to point out a fact that most are already aware of? Would you protest Mother's Day because some mothers are abusive and negligent?

Sorry, I don't celebrate mother's day.

Nor do I celebrate Valentine's day and a number of other days, simply because I can give thanks outside of peer pressure.

I'm going to steer clear of this one, for the most part, after making a few brief points.

1) Anyone who risks his or her life in defence of his/her fellow human beings & country generally deserves the utmost respect.

2) You can legitimately criticise the reason why soldiers are sent to war. It was perfectly legitimate (and, in my view, right) to oppose the invasion of Iraq, just like the invasion of Vietnam. But in that case, you criticise the political and military leaders, not the soldiers who are simply following orders, and doing so bravely. That their lives were being thrown away for no good reason, in unjustifiable wars which lead to the needless deaths of Vietnamese and Iraqi, does not make the soldiers themselves any less worthy of respect.

3) It is legitimate to demand of soldiers in wartime that they follow certain rules. Soldiers who commit murder and other gross violations of human rights lose any right to respect. But these are generally a minority, and this should not alter the respect that is given to other soldiers for their courage, and for their professional conduct.

4) As a Frenchman, I am eternally grateful to the French, British, Canadian, American, Australian, New Zealander and other soldiers who helped liberate my country during WW2. I like to think that Americans feel a similar eternal gratitude to the French soldiers who lost their lives fighting for the cause of American independence.

5) Also as a Frenchman, I respect the courage of French soldiers currently serving (and in some cases dying) in Afghanistan. What I may think of the reason for them being there has no bearing on the respect they deserve.

6) To honour and respect soldiers at war should never entail automatic support for that war. To try and link the two is dishonest and a non sequitur.

7) I respect all soldiers who have fought for their country, whatever their nationality, as long as they did not commit human rights violations in so doing. That includes Iraqi soldiers who fought bravely, and in some cases died, to defend Iraq against the Coalition invasion. I'm not trying to make a political point by saying this; I'm simply saying that respect for those Iraqi soldiers is often absent, and that they deserve as much honouring and respect as soldiers of any other nationality involved in that war.

Fuck off :)

These people risk their lives for their chums, and I don't think any of them outside of complete nutters actually enjoy killing people, they just do as ordered, or to save their friends' lives.

Give it a rest, squire.

They fight people who also risk their lives for their chums, and I don't think any of them outside of complete nutters actually enjoy killing people too.

Even though you can explain this to them, they rarely seem to get it.

Would it be necessary for them to defend us if they refused to attack?

Would it be necessary for them to defend us if we stopped electing leaders that put us into international pissing matches? Would it be necessary for them to defend us if we just went ahead and changed our lifestyles to one more convenient to those who don't like that lifestyle and are willing to change it by force?

The answer to all these questions is a big fat "yes". There are things we can all do to help prevent wars, whether as an individual, a voter, or a soldier. Whether we can reasonably make the choice to do those things is a more complicated matter.

Nor do I celebrate Valentine's day and a number of other days, simply because I can give thanks outside of peer pressure.

You must have not been laid in high school, then, my friend.

This argument has been settled, then.

As a Frenchman, I am eternally grateful to the French, British, Canadian, American, Australian, New Zealander and other soldiers who helped liberate my country during WW2. I like to think that Americans feel a similar eternal gratitude to the French soldiers who lost their lives fighting for the cause of American independence.

You could have told he was French regardless. He mentioned French soldiers first. :D

Would it be necessary for them to defend us if we stopped electing leaders that put us into international pissing matches? Would it be necessary for them to defend us if we just went ahead and changed our lifestyles to one more convenient to those who don't like that lifestyle and are willing to change it by force?

The answer to all these questions is a big fat "yes". There are things we can all do to help prevent wars, whether as an individual, a voter, or a soldier. Whether we can reasonably make the choice to do those things is a more complicated matter.

And therefore, why have a veteran's day?

The day soldiers learn to collectively put down their guns and refuse to attack on the whims of a politician is the day I will have more respect for them generally.

Until then, I will judge them person by person, day to day, just like everyone else and not give them the unfair favour of celebrating a day in their honour.

You must have not been laid in high school, then, my friend.

Your ad hominem failed, as I quite clearly said "I give thanks outside of peer pressure".

I don't need Valentine's day to give thanks to my girlfriend for how wonderful she is. Nor do I need an excuse to give her a present or show her a good time.

They didn't do enough, I still have school tomorrow.

I refuse to thank them.

Your ad hominem failed, as I quite clearly said "I give thanks outside of peer pressure".

I don't need Valentine's day to give thanks to my girlfriend for how wonderful she is. Nor do I need an excuse to give her a present or show her a good time.

Clearly, you must have missed my attempt at a casual joke.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, apparent given the resemblance of General to a no man's land.

Honor the veterans, mourn that their service was needed.

A poppy for those who've served or are serving, and I'll shout a round for you all in rememberance. Thank you for your service.

In Flanders Fields

by John McCrae, May 1915

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep,
though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

Honor the veterans, mourn that their service was needed.What was the service of Iraq veterans really needed for? Or that of Vietnam veterans?

Thanks for what? Killing because they were ordered to?

A hot and delicious cup of shut the fuck up comin' straight for ya "bro'"! (http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/6415/imgp2708zn6.jpg)

But, seriously, for a person who's advocated genocide, that's quite an odd point of view.

What was the service of Iraq veterans really needed for? Or that of Vietnam veterans?

After the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, Saudi Arabia asked for our help in defending their borders against any further attacks. This was in line with treaties between the US and KSA, so we went. Later, Several UN Resolutions were passed authorizing force to remove Iraq from Kuwati territory and to eliminate the immediate threat posed by Iraq to its southern neighbors. That was Desert Storm. The current mess is less tenable, but still legal.

Vietnam was the US providing support to an allied state in a civil war.

I guess you either forgot or didn't want to mention our successful operation in Grenada, Panama, and the Balkans.

Clearly, you must have missed my attempt at a casual joke.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, apparent given the resemblance of General to a no man's land.

We need an NSG veterans day :p To honour the fallen debaters of this no-mans land :p

What was the service of Iraq veterans really needed for? Or that of Vietnam veterans?

In Vietnam we were obliged to come to the defense of an ally, this in a time when the commitment of the United States to its allies was brought into question by, amongst other things, the Cuban Missile Crisis, but that's a whole different story.

Iraq, for all the failures of the Bush administration, has been a failure. It was unnecessary that it had to occur, but this does not devalue the service of the veterans who have served.

More than that, if the military were to refuse to obey the orders of a democratically elected government, in doing so they directly challenge the legitimacy of that government. In essence, it is a coup d'etat against a democratically constituted government. They followed their orders, and upheld our democracy.

Mrs. Celtlund, who is also a veteran and I would like to thank all the U.S. veterans and active duty members for their service and the sacrifices they and their families have made for our country. It is an honor and a privilege to have served with you and to have served out country.

A salute to all my fellow vets.

May the day come when our services are no longer needed.

Doug, retired 11B3V98Y.

I guess you either forgot or didn't want to mention our successful operation in Grenada, Panama, and the Balkans.

Grenada? The invasion of Grenada was a tragic joke.

But that would be a topic for another thread. Not this one.

Thanks for what? Killing because they were ordered to?

Damn right. I'm an old Airborne Ranger. In 20+ years of service including combat on three continents, I've killed dozens myself, and caused the deaths of hundreds through artillery and air strikes.

All my targets were forces under arms. They were just like me, only on the other side.

Do I like what I did? No. I still get nightmares about some of the things I saw an went through. Am I proud of my service? Fuck yes. And I'm proud of every single person who volunteered to wear their nation's uniform and take that oath. I don't care if you were a Navy SEAL or a clerk in a USAF data center. Your service is appreciated.

RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!

And therefore, why have a veteran's day?

I'm really not seeing where the "therefore" comes in. If the point of Veteran's Day were to honor soldiers for their contributions to peace, it'd be more understandable, but as it is...

The day soldiers learn to collectively put down their guns and refuse to attack on the whims of a politician is the day I will have more respect for them generally.

I'd have a lot of respect for soldiers who were willing to take that kind of stand as well. I also happen to have a lot of respect for those who uphold their pledges and obey their orders despite the sacrifice involved. Neither is an easy path for a person to take.

Until then, I will judge them person by person, day to day, just like everyone else and not give them the unfair favour of celebrating a day in their honour.

That's fine. I wasn't asking you or anyone else to celebrate the day. Nor was I asking you or anyone else to stop exercising their freedom to protest the celebration of the day.

I'd just like you to understand that other people have perfectly legitimate reasons for celebrating it.

.... It was unnecessary that it had to occur, but this does not devalue the service of the veterans who have served. ...Yes, it does.

But, seriously, for a person who's advocated genocide, that's quite an odd point of view.I have never advocated genocide.

They fight people who also risk their lives for their chums, and I don't think any of them outside of complete nutters actually enjoy killing people too.

Even though you can explain this to them, they rarely seem to get it.
I don't really think that's the point - both sides should probably both be respected for what they did.

Yes, it does.

I have never advocated genocide.
Can we just not have a pissing match in this topic, OK?

Thanks for what? Killing because they were ordered to?

You haven't got a clue.

I'm a liberal and a pacifist, but I will still honor Veteran's Day. I myself am a veteran having served in Iraq although I never had to shoot anyone. I am disgusted by some who say there is no reason to honor Veteran's Day. Those who say that have never put on a uniform. A soldier's place is not to question direct orders. A civilian however has the power to protest openly and denounce the warmongers. Please respect veteran's duty, if solely for their bravery. A better way of showing gratitude for their service is to support politicians who will end the war in Iraq, take care of the tens of thousands of veterans have returned home shattered, and would prevent any future war with Iran.

2) You can legitimately criticise the reason why soldiers are sent to war. It was perfectly legitimate (and, in my view, right) to oppose the invasion of Iraq, just like the invasion of Vietnam. But in that case, you criticise the political and military leaders, not the soldiers who are simply following orders, and doing so bravely. That their lives were being thrown away for no good reason, in unjustifiable wars which lead to the needless deaths of Vietnamese and Iraqi, does not make the soldiers themselves any less worthy of respect.

Unfortunatly there are many people who can not or will not distinguish between the soldier and the politicians and civilians who set the national policy. :mad:

Yes, it does.

Dude, you're just as wrong as Goatse.

I have never advocated genocide.

Collaborators are no different from advocates, and you have shown your willingness to play the role of collaborator.

The day soldiers learn to collectively put down their guns and refuse to attack on the whims of a politician is the day I will have more respect for them generally.

The U.S. military is not a democracy. Soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines all take an oath to follow the orders of those appointed over them. There are severe penalties for not following those orders. Ever since the end of the draft, every person serving in the military has taken that oath voluntarily. I salute them and respect them all. Unless you have served or were brought up in a military, family you have no idea of the sacrifices these men and women and their families make.

The U.S. military is not a democracy. Soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines all take an oath to follow the orders of those appointed over them. There are severe penalties for not following those orders. Ever since the end of the draft, every person serving in the military has taken that oath voluntarily. I salute them and respect them all. Unless you have served or were brought up in a military, family you have no idea of the sacrifices these men and women and their families make.
So people in the US military give up their citizen rights when the enter the forces? And they give up their right to think and to not obey wrong orders?

Collaborators are no different from advocates, and you have shown your willingness to play the role of collaborator.wtf

I'd just like you to understand that other people have perfectly legitimate reasons for celebrating it.

Oh, I know they do. If they're going to be public about it, though, as in this case, I am also going to point out everything that is wrong with that.

Especially with something as general as this.

Damn right. I'm an old Airborne Ranger. In 20+ years of service including combat on three continents, I've killed dozens myself, and caused the deaths of hundreds through artillery and air strikes.

All my targets were forces under arms. They were just like me, only on the other side.

Do I like what I did? No. I still get nightmares about some of the things I saw an went through. Am I proud of my service? Fuck yes. And I'm proud of every single person who volunteered to wear their nation's uniform and take that oath. I don't care if you were a Navy SEAL or a clerk in a USAF data center. Your service is appreciated.

RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!

I'm not sure why I'm wasting my breath on this.... probably because my fingers don't breathe.

I enjoy messing with your head most of the time, but this time you are treading on my feet so I'm going to try just once to disturb your comfort in a more lucid way:

I'm a veteran. I've never shot anybody and I had the sort of job where I never had to. My job was to protect my shipmates from being killed. They relied on me, my skill at my job and my judgement to keep every man and woman on my ship and ultimately in my battle group alive.

Can you imagine the responsibility of knowing that you training and being able to do your job to the absolute best of your ability meant the difference between people you cared about living or dying? I as fortunate in that I never had to defend against an actual missile attack, but confident that I had the ability should the need arise.

Now extend that to every veteran. No soldier wants to kill anyone. They do what their training instructs them to do because if they don't, people they care about could die. They sacrifice a lot for the people they serve.

Don't blame the people who do the deed, blame the people who send them to do it. Soldiers don't have the liberty to question their leaders.

Thank you both for your service.

God bless the veterans and those who didn't come home.

So people in the US military give up their citizen rights when the enter the forces? And they give up their right to think and to not obey wrong orders?

Yes, they do, to an extent. In the military, certain rights and privileges granted to civilians are conceded out of necessity, that necessity being the security of the United States, the effectiveness of the armed forces, and the safety of the men and women serving in the armed forces. They have the right to refuse immoral and illegal orders, but there has to be clear justification for that refusal. It's not a "get out of service free" pass that you can use whenever you feel like it to get out of filling your responsibility, it is a serious matter that will be investigated by the military and will result in severe punishment for you or the offender, depending on the findings of the investigation.

So people in the US military give up their citizen rights when the enter the forces?
No, they just defer to those of a high rank, like those in every military in the whole bloody world.
And they give up their right to think and to not obey wrong orders?
Depends on what their rank is. If you're some grunty private, you sure as hell don't get to think too much.

As far as "wrong orders" goes, it's a bit hard to know at the time if people rushing at you in a car or whatever are hostile, and if you shoot warning shots at them and they don't slow down, things can get muddled very, very quickly.

Which is why accidents happen and all.

The U.S. military is not a democracy. Soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines all take an oath to follow the orders of those appointed over them. There are severe penalties for not following those orders. Ever since the end of the draft, every person serving in the military has taken that oath voluntarily. I salute them and respect them all. Unless you have served or were brought up in a military, family you have no idea of the sacrifices these men and women and their families make.

Hence why I have no overall respect for them. They make these sacrifices voluntarily, then proceed to bitch and moan (like you're doing) when people don't have any sympathy for them.

Also, you are actually required to disobey some orders.

So people in the US military give up their citizen rights when the enter the forces? And they give up their right to think and to not obey wrong orders?

wtf

To a degree they willing give up some rights for example they can not participate in an anti-war rally. Most wouldn't anyway and if any wanted to they know the consequences of doing so. They do not give up their right to think, and if an order is clearly illegal they are obliged not to obey that order.

Unfortunatly there are many people who can not or will not distinguish between the soldier and the politicians and civilians who set the national policy. :mad:

Seeing as how being a soldier is voluntary, if you disagree with the national policy, the simplest and most honourable solution is to state your disagreement and resign.

If you don't get this choice, it's not much of a voluntary force any longer, is it now?

I don't really think that's the point - both sides should probably both be respected for what they did.

No, they shouldn't. An aggressor shouldn't be respected. For those who might end up saying that the Allies in WWII shouldn't be respected by this logic, think twice: Who was the aggressor?

Hence why I have no overall respect for them. They make these sacrifices voluntarily, then proceed to bitch and moan (like you're doing) when people don't have any sympathy for them.

Yet, of course, those same people also benefit massively from the work that those men and women do every day. People who don't respect the armed forces are almost certain to be laughably hypocritical, especially if they happen to drive a car...

Thank a veteran for oppressing my rights too.


*plays you a sad song, on the world's smallest harmonica*

No, they shouldn't. An aggressor shouldn't be respected. For those who might end up saying that the Allies in WWII shouldn't be respected by this logic, think twice: Who was the aggressor?
The people who start these wars are almost never personally involved - the actual soldiers should probably be at least somewhat respected on both sides (obviously, soldiers getting involved in ethnic cleansing and the like shouldn't be, but apart from that...)

So people in the US military give up their citizen rights when the enter the forces? And they give up their right to think and to not obey wrong orders?

Defying the orders of a duly constituted democratic government is to question the legitimacy of democratic governance and is, in effect, a coup d'etat against the state.

wtf

Remember that whole "I wouldn't interefere if someone were to start killing Jews" bit? Anyone who allows genocide to happen through inaction is no different from the person pulling the trigger, swinging the machete or dropping the gas canister.

Defying the orders of a duly constituted democratic government is to question the legitimacy of democratic governance

The absolute legitimacy of democratic government? Yes. But then, everyone does this. Do you really think everything a democratic government does is acceptable?

The decrees of any kind of authority do not alter the dictates of morality.

and is, in effect, a coup d'etat against the state.

Does the same apply to every illegal act--however minor?

I wonder how many people here enjoy the delicious irony that it's because of veterans that people have the ability to piss on veterans. :p

Remember that whole "I wouldn't interefere if someone were to start killing Jews" bit? Anyone who allows genocide to happen through inaction is no different from the person pulling the trigger, swinging the machete or dropping the gas canister.

Sin of omission, to use a theological term, instead of sin of commission.

I wonder how many people here enjoy the delicious irony that it's because of veterans that people have the ability to piss on veterans. :p

I'll have a slice of that irony, it looks quite tasty.

I wonder how many people here enjoy the delicious irony that it's because of veterans that people have the ability to piss on veterans. :p

Probably more that enjoys the irony that it's because of politicians that people have the right to piss on politicians (and indeed veterans).

With all of the felating of Veterans that goes on these days by politicians and blowhards (mostly lip service....ha! Lip service, get it? ... moving on...) at this point it feels like everyday is Veterans Day, what we, and perhaps they, need is a Not Veterans Day, or a Give the Veterans Thing a Break Day where we let them just be people instead of pawns in everyone's ideology. Granted, when you sign up that's what you sign up for, really, but that doesn't mean that's all they want to be. And we've certainly amped it up to a full blown symphony of that crap by now.

That's how I'm going to celebrate it, not by exaggerating their purpose or waxing romantic about their service, I'm just going to let them be. Veterans, today, you're just one of us. Relax and enjoy it, the campaign trail starts up again tomorrow, bright and early.

The absolute legitimacy of democratic government? Yes. But then, everyone does this. Do you really think everything a democratic government does is acceptable?

The decrees of any kind of authority do not alter the dictates of morality.



Does the same apply to every illegal act--however minor?

Because of the exceptional nature of the military, as both threatening and vital to the survival of democracy, the traditional citizen’s right of civil disobedience is not extended to officers and volunteers (conscripts need not be included in this statement, as their service is compelled and they have more in common with civilians). Because the military of a duly constituted representative body is entrusted with special responsibilities and powers, it must also accept unquestioning political subservience to that body.

With all of the felating of Veterans that goes on these days by politicians and blowhards (mostly lip service....ha! Lip service, get it? ... moving on...) at this point it feels like everyday is Veterans Day, what we, and perhaps they, need is a Not Veterans Day, or a Give the Veterans Thing a Break Day where we let them just be people instead of pawns in everyone's ideology. Granted, when you sign up that's what you sign up for, really, but that doesn't mean that's all they want to be. And we've certainly amped it up to a full blown symphony of that crap by now.

That's how I'm going to celebrate it, not by exaggerating their purpose or waxing romantic about their service, I'm just going to let them be. Veterans, today, you're just one of us. Relax and enjoy it, the campaign trail starts up again tomorrow, bright and early.

The other 364 days a year, the people who spout on the most about veterans are usually those that understand them the least. I'd like to think that this is the day for people who really mean what they say. But I know better. The military jock sniffers don't take a day off. Pity. :(

Yet, of course, those same people also benefit massively from the work that those men and women do every day. People who don't respect the armed forces are almost certain to be laughably hypocritical, especially if they happen to drive a car...

And those men and women have to do that work because other men and women are doing that work.

It's a vicious circle and I ain't showing respect to that.

There's a good Veterans' Day themed article here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/09/AR2007110901569.html).

It's on the Washington Post site. If you don't have an account, you can "borrow" one here (http://www.bugmenot.com/view/www.washingtonpost.com).

Veterans' Day first began with Armistice Day, to celebrate the end of World War I. I think that's an important point: the holiday began with the end of a war, not the start of one. On Veterans' Day, we thank the people who were not only brave enough to take up their weapons, but when the time was right, to lay them down again.

I accept your thanks on this day on behalf of myself(USN), my dad(USN), both grandfathers(both USA), three of my great uncles(one USA the others USA-Air Corps), my uncle(USAF), one great aunt(USN Nurse), and my brother(USAF) (all of us are veterans): and extend my own thanks out to other veterans.

The other 364 days a year, the people who spout on the most about veterans are usually those that understand them the least. I'd like to think that this is the day for people who really mean what they say. But I know better. The military jock sniffers don't take a day off. Pity. :(

Tell me about it, ever since 9/11 I've been sick of the false patriotism spouted around.

NEWS:
1. Veterans are not all war-mongers... Many of us served in capacities during conflicts we did not agree with...
2. As a veteran, I'm not impressed with competition of the people to display flags in whatever inappropriate manner they can dream of under the guise of "respect"... If you actually respected anything of the sort, you would have perused flag etiquette BEFORE displaying it. I've more respect to protesters burning the flag, than the vile crap I've seen others do in failed displays of respect.
3. To the politicians: I'm not at all impressed with the entire idea of all the cutting done to the VA in recent years... Y'all have no problem funding the creation of veterans... So fund the support they need now that you've made all these veterans.

3. To the politicians: I'm not at all impressed with the entire idea of all the cutting done to the VA in recent years... Y'all have no problem funding the creation of veterans... So fund the support they need now that you've made all these veterans.
Well put. I've been thinking something like this for a while, but this is much more articulate than I could ever come up with.
Oh, and thank you for your services. Happy Veterans' Day!

3. To the politicians: I'm not at all impressed with the entire idea of all the cutting done to the VA in recent years... Y'all have no problem funding the creation of veterans... So fund the support they need now that you've made all these veterans.

The answer from the politicians: "What? You've got your very own day to celebrate veterans, and still you're complaining? The sheer gall! :eek:"

2) You can legitimately criticise the reason why soldiers are sent to war. It was perfectly legitimate (and, in my view, right) to oppose the invasion of Iraq, just like the invasion of Vietnam. But in that case, you criticise the political and military leaders, not the soldiers who are simply following orders, and doing so bravely. That their lives were being thrown away for no good reason, in unjustifiable wars which lead to the needless deaths of Vietnamese and Iraqi, does not make the soldiers themselves any less worthy of respect.

"Don't blame the hit man at all, only blame the contractor." What a bunch of crap.

Thanks for what? Killing because they were ordered to?

For protecting the country, keeping it safe so that people like you can ask dumb questions like that.

For protecting the country, keeping it safe so that people like you can ask dumb questions like that.

Exactly. Spending months (and sometimes years) on the frontlines, in an absolute hell, to defend our nations from foreign aggression.

Lest We Forget

The answer from the politicians: "What? You've got your very own day to celebrate veterans, and still you're complaining? The sheer gall! :eek:"

LOL... That's about their speed... Especially since it's not much of a celebration... A whole bunch of random people get veterans day sales to go to, while most veterans are out working... Unless you're one of the few veterans which decided to continue your getting screwed over, by working for the feds.

"Don't blame the hitman, blame the contractor." What a bunch of crap.
I dunno, actually. I mean, if I found out someone was being paid to kill me, I'd probably in the long run be far more pissed off by the guy paying the money. The fact that some other guy is doing the dirty work is kinda incidental to the intention (except, of course, for that brief period where he's actually trying to kill you).

"Don't blame the hit man at all, only blame the contractor." What a bunch of crap.

Yeah. Poor analogies often are.

Yeah. Poor analogies often are.

Soldiers, especially in volunteer armies, are nothing but hired goons. They are not resolved from culpability over anything just because they had their employer tell them to do something, no matter how glossy you'd like to cum shine their image.

Soldiers, especially in volunteer armies, are nothing but hired goons. They are not resolved from culpability over anything just because they had their employer tell them to do something, no matter how glossy you'd like to cum shine their image.
What would you suggest in place of a military?

I dunno, actually. I mean, if I found out someone was being paid to kill me, I'd probably in the long run be far more pissed off by the guy paying the money.

So the hit man bears no responsibility for his profession? It's not him pulling the trigger, it's just some mind control device dictating his actions. I guess if he puts on a uniform, it'll somehow strip him of a brain and person completely and he'll be honourable, even.

Soldiers, especially in volunteer armies, are nothing but hired goons. They are not resolved from culpability over anything just because they had their employer tell them to do something, no matter how glossy you'd like to cum shine their image.

You win the prize for most disturbing image of my day.

What would you suggest in place of a military?

It's a crazy idea in this "we need to have soldiers to 'protect us' (funny how one's nations soldiers never wage wars of aggression and if they do, well, they're innocent little snowflakes who know not what they do - it's those damned politicians and demagogues they choose to listen to!) from the wars said soldiers wage" insanity, but one start would be for soldiers to just not wage wars. For them to realise that they perpetuate the evil they'd like to fool themselves into thinking they're alleviating. And then to choose another profession. A respectable one, perchance.

What would you suggest in place of a military?

A legion of Swedish bakers, stuffing Flours representing Peace, into the guns of Soldiers.

You win the prize for most disturbing image of my day.

I wasn't the one wanking over them, so don't blame me for spotting the ricocheted stains.

It's a crazy idea in this "we need to have soldiers to 'protect us' (funny how one's nations soldiers never wage wars of aggression and if they do, well, they're innocent little snowflakes who know not what they do - it's those damned politicians and demagogues they choose to listen to!) from the wars said soldiers wage" insanity, but one start would be for soldiers to just not wage wars. For them to realise that they perpetuate the evil they'd like to fool themselves into thinking they're alleviating. And then to choose another profession. A respectable one, perchance.

So in place of a military, the 6.6 billion people on the planet should agree to just be nice to each other? That's a good idea, but to expect that it will happen is even more deluded than to think of all soldiers as "innocent little snowflakes."
I agree that we should give just as much respect to people who try to prevent war as to those who fight in it, but I think that's possible without disrespecting either group.

A legion of Swedish bakers, stuffing Flours representing Peace, into the guns of Soldiers.

Sorry, Fass, I like Bann-ed's idea better anyway.

It's a crazy idea in this "we need to have soldiers to 'protect us' (funny how one's nations soldiers never wage wars of aggression and if they do, well, they're innocent little snowflakes who know not what they do - it's those damned politicians and demagogues they choose to listen to!) from the wars said soldiers wage" insanity, but one start would be for soldiers to just not wage wars. For them to realise that they perpetuate the evil they'd like to fool themselves into thinking they're alleviating. And then to choose another profession. A respectable one, perchance.

Unfortunately it's not that easy, in situations like now, our military isn't all that voluntary... Considering they can hold someone on active duty indefinitely as long as the powers-that-be consider them "necessary" to continue the conflict. Your average NCO cannot resign like commissioned officers can... So there's a good chunk of people engaging in this "war" on the front lines who likely do not agree with it, or their orders... But when you're still forced to continue duty there is little to nothing you can do about it.

I was engaged in operations in the Adriatic back when the whole former-Yugoslavian BS was going on, and there was little I could do about it at the time.

A legion of Swedish bakers, stuffing Flours representing Peace, into the guns of Soldiers.

If carbs would be what is needed to stop all the cogs in this wheel they do nothing but help to go around and around, then by jove I'd commit the ultimate self-sacrifice and debase myself with all the white flour in the world.

I wasn't the one wanking over them, so don't blame me for spotting the ricocheted stains.

So Fass, what branch of the military have you served? I mean you must know what it like since you seem to like to talk about them a lot, I assume you have at least some experience of what's it like to be in the military? No, well that's a damn shame because you know, when people talk about stuff that they actually have no clue about, like you and other...well... I'm just going to call them the tragically misinformed, it just make you guys look like a bunch of tragically misinformed jerks. Tragically misinformed people like you and others never put on a uniformed, you never served, and you never suffered through the hardship of war, thereforth you have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a solider, and yet, that still doesn't stop you from sprouting the things that comes out of your tragically misinformed mouth.

Tell you what Fass, and others. Why don't you guys go to the nearest recruitment center and sign up, go ahead, if you think you know so much about military service, then you should rise up to a high enough rank to change the military to the way you see fit.

Now as to why I'm not in uniform, well I'm handicapped, so they won't take me in, but if I wasn't then you can bet your ass I would be a pilot for the United States Military right now.

I think I said enough.

Unfortunately it's not that easy, in situations like now, our military isn't all that voluntary... Considering they can hold someone on active duty indefinitely as long as the powers-that-be consider them "necessary" to continue the conflict. Your average NCO cannot resign like commissioned officers can... So there's a good chunk of people engaging in this "war" on the front lines who likely do not agree with it, or their orders... But when you're still forced to continue duty there is little to nothing you can do about it.

I was engaged in operations in the Adriatic back when the whole former-Yugoslavian BS was going on, and there was little I could do about it at the time.

They're not automata - they can refuse an action at any time. They choose not to. Therein lies the culpability.

I agree that we should give just as much respect to people who try to prevent war as to those who fight in it, but I think that's possible without disrespecting either group.

With the difference of course being that preventing wars is a good and waging wars is an evil. No matter the excuse given to it - often some designated other evil one is resorting to evil to "combat" and ever so coincidentally an evil which also most often happens to have soldiers/goons that go along with it. And so the self-perpetuation is established and wanked over and "thanked". Thank you for spinning the wheel another turn!

They're not automata - they can refuse an action at any time. They choose not to. Therein lies the culpability.

You can't simply "refuse an action"... You go where you're ordered to go, when they tell you... And in cases like now, as long as they automatically extend your contract for (all that stop-gap BS)... Unfortunately, for the most part, once you've put on a military uniform you're not all that far from automata, legally speaking. You can have your superior official note your disagreement with a particular action, but you're still required to carry out that order...

I suggest a world wide peace makers day, and not some poorly publicized one like poultry farmers day. I'm talkin' about a day with banners and TV programs and everything...and a day of from work.

These are the men and women who devote their lives to truly protect the people we are honoring today along with everyone on earth. So why is it we have such a big veterans day?

With the difference of course being that preventing wars is a good and waging wars is an evil. No matter the excuse given to it - often some designated other evil one is resorting to evil to "combat" and ever so coincidentally an evil which also most often happens to have soldiers/goons that go along with it. And so the self-perpetuation is established and wanked over and "thanked". Thank you for spinning the wheel another turn!

But the peace makers are not always successful. War is, at least in the near future, inevitable. Soldiers don't create violence so much as move it, and concentrate it: instead of all of the citizens fighting all of the citizens of another nation, professionals of each fight. Those who volunteer to do this I am appreciative toward, because it means I don't get hurt. Selfish of me? Duh, of course it is. But, I think that the people who join the military realize that they are performing this service, and so I see it as a gift from them, not me and most other people of Earth exploiting them.

By the by, if there are veterans here who do feel exploited by me, I apologize. I'll buy a magnetic bumper sticker to make it up to you.

Tell you what Fass, and others. Why don't you guys go to the nearest recruitment center and sign up, go ahead, if you think you know so much about military service, then you should rise up to a high enough rank to change the military to the way you see fit.


I demand that you remove the line in your signature expressing support for Ron Paul, unless you have served in the office of President of the United States yourself. If you have not so served in the office of President of the United States yourself, you lack the experience that is necessary to criticize the current occupant of said office.

How dare you "think you know so much about" what a President should or should not do without possessing such direct experience yourself?

...

(See how silly this kind of thinking sounds? Your argument seems satisfactory because it is emotionally charged, but it is still ultimately nothing more than an argument from authority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority) delivered as an ad hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) variation [person must be wrong because person is not a recognized authority]. Besides that, the same basic argument can be used to undermine pretty much all of your own interests and all of your own beliefs [as shown above]. Thus, it is an argument probably best abandoned.)

So Fass, what branch of the military have you served? I mean you must know what it like since you seem to like to talk about them a lot, I assume you have at least some experience of what's it like to be in the military? No, well that's a damn shame because you know, when people talk about stuff that they actually have no clue about, like you and other...well... I'm just going to call them the tragically misinformed, it just make you guys look like a bunch of tragically misinformed jerks. Tragically misinformed people like you and others never put on a uniformed, you never served, and you never suffered through the hardship of war, thereforth you have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a solider, and yet, that still doesn't stop you from sprouting the things that comes out of your tragically misinformed mouth.

Tell you what Fass, and others. Why don't you guys go to the nearest recruitment center and sign up, go ahead, if you think you know so much about military service, then you should rise up to a high enough rank to change the military to the way you see fit.

Now as to why I'm not in uniform, well I'm handicapped, so they won't take me in, but if I wasn't then you can bet your ass I would be a pilot for the United States Military right now.

I think I said enough.

To all who would think like Wilgrove, I suggest you be quite careful. Some of us actually live in countries that still require mandatory military service. Fass happens to. I happen to.

And I know what I am going to do when it comes up. Not do it, that's what. Fortunately, the soldiers who have wanted oh so badly to have us all recruited have been beaten back by the same politicians you all decry. How, you might ask?

By making it legal to actually perform civil service instead.

With the attitudes you all have, that would never have become legal and I'd have to stand up to highly immoral practice of drafting people, by doing something illegal as opposed to legal.

Click Stand;13207811']I suggest a world wide peace makers day, and not some poorly publicized one like poultry farmers day. I'm talkin' about a day with banners and TV programs and everything...and a day of from work.

These are the men and women who devote their lives to truly protect the people we are honoring today along with everyone on earth. So why is it we have such a big veterans day?

Well, Veterans' Day actually began as a holiday celebrating the end of World War One, the worst war the world had yet seen. It makes sense that would be popular.

I agree with you, those who fight for peace do not get recognized nearly as much as they should. I think the reason, though, that veterans are celebrated while diplomats are not is because, regardless of what they're fighting for, or where they are, or what they're doing, veterans have a pretty rough life, at least for a few months. It's harder to thank someone as well-off as a diplomat for his "struggle," no matter how much good his work does.

But the peace makers are not always successful. War is, at least in the near future, inevitable. Soldiers don't create violence so much as move it, and concentrate it: instead of all of the citizens fighting all of the citizens of another nation, professionals of each fight. Those who volunteer to do this I am appreciative toward, because it means I don't get hurt. Selfish of me? Duh, of course it is. But, I think that the people who join the military realize that they are performing this service, and so I see it as a gift from them, not me and most other people of Earth exploiting them.

By the by, if there are veterans here who do feel exploited by me, I apologize. I'll buy a magnetic bumper sticker to make it up to you.

Just so you know, the current trends are that civilians are more likely to get killed than soldiers.

So much for soldiers protecting civilians...

To all who would think like Wilgrove, I suggest you be quite careful. Some of us actually live in countries that still require mandatory military service. Fass happens to. I happen to.

And I know what I am going to do when it comes up. Not do it, that's what. Fortunately, the soldiers who have wanted oh so badly to have us all recruited have been beaten back by the same politicians you all decry. How, you might ask?

By making it legal to actually perform civil service instead.

With the attitudes you all have, that would never have become legal and I'd have to stand up to highly immoral practice of drafting people, by doing something illegal as opposed to legal.
What constitutes "civil service?"

You can't simply "refuse an action"... You go where you're ordered to go, when they tell you...

No, you refuse and take the consequences if you don't agree with the action.

And in cases like now, as long as they automatically extend your contract for (all that stop-gap BS)... Unfortunately, for the most part, once you've put on a military uniform you're not all that far from automata, legally speaking. You can have your superior official note your disagreement with a particular action, but you're still required to carry out that order...

You might be required, but you can still refuse to carry out that order. Nothing can force you to perform an action against your will. There may be consequences, but you have to do the right thing.

Technically, the term 'veteran' constitutes one has served in a wartime military position.

But, regardless, if you are not going to celebrate Veteran's Day, why bother posting in a thread obviously devoted to the celebrating of that holiday?

Would one show up to a Christmas party and denounce the holiday as a commercialized venture in capitalism, or go to Halloween Party and protest the consumption of candy as dangerous to your dental health?

We are aware that most veterans aren't saints, and some are even less so than others, why bother to point out a fact that most are already aware of? Would you protest Mother's Day because some mothers are abusive and negligent?

On an online debate forum ... it does not seem too much of a stretch in expectations that people would discuss the pro's and cons of certain aspects of the holiday or the holiday in genera. While in real life I would find it in bad taste to do the stuff that you spoke of ... with the situation as is on this board not so much so

So basically, what you're saying is that one can have no opinion about war and conflict unless one has served - and that you yourself will never speak on the issue of the military again since you've never served?
True, you make the argument sound silly.

If you have never committed a crime, then I guess you couldn't talk about criminals either... Nor anything one haven't experienced firsthand... Hmm... I guess this forum will be quiet from now on.On the other hand...
*Does the equivalent of streaking through an empty forum*

What constitutes "civil service?"

My findings have been vague on the part, but it seems that it needs to be:
1) Something you're not familiar with/trained to do (if you usually work as a baker, you won't end up working as a baker. If you usually work as an engineer, no engineering for you).
2) Something reasonably far away from your home.

I suppose that it would include such things as policeman, firefighter, baker and whatnot, but I am not entirely certain.

What I am certain of is that it is nothing of military value.

So Fass, what branch of the military have you served? I mean you must know what it like since you seem to like to talk about them a lot, I assume you have at least some experience of what's it like to be in the military? No, well that's a damn shame because you know, when people talk about stuff that they actually have no clue about, like you and other...well... I'm just going to call them the tragically misinformed, it just make you guys look like a bunch of tragically misinformed jerks. Tragically misinformed people like you and others never put on a uniformed, you never served, and you never suffered through the hardship of war, thereforth you have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a solider, and yet, that still doesn't stop you from sprouting the things that comes out of your tragically misinformed mouth.

Now as to why I'm not in uniform, well I'm handicapped, so they won't take me in, but if I wasn't then you can bet your ass I would be a pilot for the United States Military right now.
So basically, what you're saying is that one can have no opinion about war and conflict unless one has served - and that you yourself will never speak on the issue of the military again since you've never served?

If you have never committed a crime, then I guess you couldn't talk about criminals either... Nor anything one haven't experienced firsthand... Hmm... I guess this forum will be quiet from now on.

But the peace makers are not always successful. War is, at least in the near future, inevitable. Soldiers don't create violence so much as move it, and concentrate it: instead of all of the citizens fighting all of the citizens of another nation, professionals of each fight. Those who volunteer to do this I am appreciative toward, because it means I don't get hurt. Selfish of me? Duh, of course it is. But, I think that the people who join the military realize that they are performing this service, and so I see it as a gift from them, not me and most other people of Earth exploiting them.

By the by, if there are veterans here who do feel exploited by me, I apologize. I'll buy a magnetic bumper sticker to make it up to you.

To quote von Clausewitz "War is an extension of diplomacy by other means"... Sometimes war is inevitable, it is not always an intrinsic evil by all parties to a conflict...

You might be required, but you can still refuse to carry out that order. Nothing can force you to perform an action against your will. There may be consequences, but you have to do the right thing.

For whom?

Respect is for those who have earned it. Killers are not respectable.

Neither are Nazis. :)

*cough*

I'm not sure why I'm wasting my breath on this.... probably because my fingers don't breathe.

I enjoy messing with your head most of the time, but this time you are treading on my feet so I'm going to try just once to disturb your comfort in a more lucid way:

I'm a veteran. I've never shot anybody and I had the sort of job where I never had to. My job was to protect my shipmates from being killed. They relied on me, my skill at my job and my judgement to keep every man and woman on my ship and ultimately in my battle group alive.

Can you imagine the responsibility of knowing that you training and being able to do your job to the absolute best of your ability meant the difference between people you cared about living or dying? I as fortunate in that I never had to defend against an actual missile attack, but confident that I had the ability should the need arise.

Now extend that to every veteran. No soldier wants to kill anyone. They do what their training instructs them to do because if they don't, people they care about could die. They sacrifice a lot for the people they serve.

Don't blame the people who do the deed, blame the people who send them to do it. Soldiers don't have the liberty to question their leaders.

Beautifully said, LG.

*gives you an infinite supply of tacos*

You can't simply "refuse an action"...

Yes, you can. You haven't lost your free will because you donned a uniform - it's not magical like that.

You go where you're ordered to go, when they tell you...

You choose to go where they order you to go. You choose to obey orders.

And in cases like now, as long as they automatically extend your contract for (all that stop-gap BS)... Unfortunately, for the most part, once you've put on a military uniform you're not all that far from automata, legally speaking. You can have your superior official note your disagreement with a particular action, but you're still required to carry out that order...

Laws can be wrong, just like orders can be wrong. What makes you more than an automaton is the ability to discern that and to break the law that needs be broken and to disobey the order that needs be. Or to choose to go along with both. All are choices.

I'm going to steer clear of this one, for the most part, after making a few brief points.

1) Anyone who risks his or her life in defence of his/her fellow human beings & country generally deserves the utmost respect.

2) You can legitimately criticise the reason why soldiers are sent to war. It was perfectly legitimate (and, in my view, right) to oppose the invasion of Iraq, just like the invasion of Vietnam. But in that case, you criticise the political and military leaders, not the soldiers who are simply following orders, and doing so bravely. That their lives were being thrown away for no good reason, in unjustifiable wars which lead to the needless deaths of Vietnamese and Iraqi, does not make the soldiers themselves any less worthy of respect.

3) It is legitimate to demand of soldiers in wartime that they follow certain rules. Soldiers who commit murder and other gross violations of human rights lose any right to respect. But these are generally a minority, and this should not alter the respect that is given to other soldiers for their courage, and for their professional conduct.

4) As a Frenchman, I am eternally grateful to the French, British, Canadian, American, Australian, New Zealander and other soldiers who helped liberate my country during WW2. I like to think that Americans feel a similar eternal gratitude to the French soldiers who lost their lives fighting for the cause of American independence.

5) Also as a Frenchman, I respect the courage of French soldiers currently serving (and in some cases dying) in Afghanistan. What I may think of the reason for them being there has no bearing on the respect they deserve.

6) To honour and respect soldiers at war should never entail automatic support for that war. To try and link the two is dishonest and a non sequitur.

7) I respect all soldiers who have fought for their country, whatever their nationality, as long as they did not commit human rights violations in so doing. That includes Iraqi soldiers who fought bravely, and in some cases died, to defend Iraq against the Coalition invasion. I'm not trying to make a political point by saying this; I'm simply saying that respect for those Iraqi soldiers is often absent, and that they deserve as much honouring and respect as soldiers of any other nationality involved in that war.

Very well said. :)

My findings have been vague on the part, but it seems that it needs to be:
1) Something you're not familiar with/trained to do (if you usually work as a baker, you won't end up working as a baker. If you usually work as an engineer, no engineering for you).
2) Something reasonably far away from your home.

I suppose that it would include such things as policeman, firefighter, baker and whatnot, but I am not entirely certain.

What I am certain of is that it is nothing of military value.

This is a good idea. There was something similar when the US had the draft, where you could be a "conscientious observer," and work in the Civilian Public Service. Of course, I would prefer something like what we have now, where if you wish to serve in the military, you volunteer. It creates a more professional and more meaningful military.

No, you refuse and take the consequences if you don't agree with the action.

You might be required, but you can still refuse to carry out that order. Nothing can force you to perform an action against your will. There may be consequences, but you have to do the right thing.

When in actual military service, your "will" has no bearing on the duties you're required to perform... The only way I would refuse is where I could clearly see an order as being unlawful (and I HAVE refused to carry out unlawful orders before, and been exonerated on those circumstances)... But where "right" and "wrong" is not as clear, then you have no choice but to carry out an order, and have it noted that you disagree with that order...

I don't really expect civilians with no combat experience to understand any of this.

So Fass, what branch of the military have you served?

None, I am proud to say. I objected to the draft and in stead of being sent to prison for it, I was fortunate enough to have a kind psychologist at the muster choose to deem me "unsuitable for service due to poor ability to handle the stress of the military" or some such nebulosity because she at the time of military budget restraints could be quite generous with that instead of having to take the issue to court. I might as easily have ended up with someone who would have reported it for what it was - objection. I would have taken the consequence, but fortunately didn't have to, and fortunately no one else will have to either soon because the government is drafting a law to repeal the penalty of imprisonment for objectors.

Tell you what Fass, and others. Why don't you guys go to the nearest recruitment center and sign up,

The Swedish military does not have "recruitment centres", just like your "if you haven't done it, you can't discuss or criticise it" hogwash has no sense or logic to it. Or, must you really have eaten shit to be able to speak of how gross it is?

Or, must you really have eaten shit to be able to speak of how gross it is?

I don't know, you tell us. ;)

*raises a glass for them*

I'll join in that toast.

Here's to all of us who wrote that blank check to Uncle Sam. A blank check that was payable by anything he asked, up to and including our lives.

May we all live out the rest of our days in peace.

I don't really expect civilians with no combat experience to understand any of this.

I think you don't expect people who are used to taking responsibility for their actions to understand. You have a free will. Any order you obey you choose to obey. Thus you are co-culpable to it.

Well, Veterans' Day actually began as a holiday celebrating the end of World War One, the worst war the world had yet seen. It makes sense that would be popular.

I agree with you, those who fight for peace do not get recognized nearly as much as they should. I think the reason, though, that veterans are celebrated while diplomats are not is because, regardless of what they're fighting for, or where they are, or what they're doing, veterans have a pretty rough life, at least for a few months. It's harder to thank someone as well-off as a diplomat for his "struggle," no matter how much good his work does.

Just as there are diplomats living the life there are also soldiers who are not at the heart of combat and are instead serving more technical needs. That doesn't mean that either should lose respect for what they are doing.

Ask your daddy, as he sure seemed to love rimming my ass.

/Is this how the childish jokes go? I forget.

It's about as childish as you thinking it's easy for any solider to disregard any orders given by a commanding officer without being in a world of hurt. But, never mind, you're the military expert here, carry on.

I don't know, you tell us. ;)

Ask your daddy, as he sure seemed to love rimming my ass.

/Is this how the childish jokes go? I forget.

Yes, you can. You haven't lost your free will because you donned a uniform - it's not magical like that.



You choose to go where they order you to go. You choose to obey orders.



Laws can be wrong, just like orders can be wrong. What makes you more than an automaton is the ability to discern that and to break the law that needs be broken and to disobey the order that needs be. Or to choose to go along with both. All are choices.

Almost all of the time you do not possesses the information required to make such determinations; but are still required to perform a duty... In many cases you can actually be carrying out orders completely BLIND to what the circumstances are... Especially during this era of "Nintendo" warfare.

Thanks to all veterans!:)

When in actual military service, your "will" has no bearing on the duties you're required to perform... The only way I would refuse is where I could clearly see an order as being unlawful (and I HAVE refused to carry out unlawful orders before, and been exonerated on those circumstances)... But where "right" and "wrong" is not as clear, then you have no choice but to carry out an order, and have it noted that you disagree with that order...

I don't really expect civilians with no combat experience to understand any of this.
What is comes down to is the oath of enlistment or oath of office that one in uniformed service swears. Either you stand by your promise to obey your superiors, or you don't. The U.S. military depends on that sort of integrity.

Well, I can't blame any convenient "handicaps" for not having served like you, Mr. Wheelchair Non-General, but only my own choice to refuse a draft. Yeah, how lousy of me to be responsible for my action and not have some defect to hide behind...

Oh, I hide behind my defect, Oh please, you're the one who had a shrink conveniently tell your military that you are too "weak" mentally to serve.

That says more about you Fass, than me.

It's about as childish as you thinking it's easy for any solider to disregard any orders given by a commanding officer without being in a world of hurt.

I never said there wouldn't be consequences, but it is nothing less than intellectually dishonest cowardice to pretend as if your fear of the consequences somehow amounted to taking your free will away.

But, never mind, you're the military expert here, carry on.

Well, I can't blame any convenient "handicaps" for not having served like you, Mr. Wheelchair Non-General, but only my own choice to refuse a draft. Yeah, how lousy of me to be responsible for my action and not have some defect to hide behind...

Almost all of the time you do not possesses the information required to make such determinations; but are still required to perform a duty... In many cases you can actually be carrying out orders completely BLIND to what the circumstances are... Especially during this era of "Nintendo" warfare.

None of which relieves you of your responsibility for having chosen whether to obey or disobey.

Well, I can't blame any convenient "handicaps" for not having served like you, Mr. Wheelchair Non-General, but only my own choice to refuse a draft. Yeah, how lousy of me to be responsible for my action and not have some defect to hide behind...

Oh, and I am not done with you, you think I hide behind my handicaps? Well I would LOVE for you to go a day in my shoe, you just sound more arrogant and more of an ass every time you post Fass, because you know what, and this may come as a BIG shocker for someone who arrogant is so giant, that it's surprising he knows about anything outside of his little corner of the world, but there's a BIG FUCKING DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SOMETHING YOU ARE BORN WITH AND SOMETHING THAT SOME DAMN SHRINK MADE UP TO GET YOU OUT OF SERVING!!

As for the Mods, I may get tempa-banned, but I don't care, I stand by what I said in this post.

I think you don't expect people who are used to taking responsibility for their actions to understand. You have a free will. Any order you obey you choose to obey. Thus you are co-culpable to it.

You obey out of duty... Your choice was enlisting, past that, you have little in the way of "choice", except in those rare circumstances... People's lives are on the line, and unless you explicitly know a certain action is unlawful, you carry out that order, even if you may think it is "wrong"... I'm not going to place my personal view or opinion above the lives of the people standing next to me... Something a civilian as yourself will never grasp, because you've never been there.

How bout everyone has their own opinions of the war, no one is right, no one is wrong. Who cares what some random internet kid you don't know feels about your beliefs?



Personally, i don't support the war, but thats me. I'm grateful to have people protect me though. Drafts are bad and iraq doesn't need that many soldiers.


Why can't we all just get along? =]


:mp5: + :sniper: = :fluffle:

Oh, and I am not done with you, you think I hide behind my handicaps?

Yes, when you use them as an excuse for not having done something and then attempt to accost someone else for not having it done it (and proud of not having done it, for that matter), either. That is the very definition of hiding behind something.

For whom?
I'd imagine it'd be for yourself first and foremost. After all, primarily it's you that have to live with yourself.

It's about as childish as you thinking it's easy for any solider to disregard any orders given by a commanding officer without being in a world of hurt.
So what you - having never served yourself - believe is, that the soldiers would have a hard time refusing to obey an unlawful order?

So what you - having never served yourself - believe is, that the soldiers would have a hard time refusing to obey an unlawful order?

Funny how he, who has never served, can have that opinion, while others who have never served he claims cannot have any opinion on the matter of the military, at all.

Yes, when you use them as an excuse for not having done something and then attempt to accost someone else for not having it done it (and proud of not having done it, for that matter), either. That is the very definition of hiding behind something.

Once again you arrogant ass, there's a difference between what you are born with, in my case Goldenhar Syndrome, and what apparently you and a shrink came up with after a night out on the town and one too many bottles of wine.

You are the one who's hiding behind this "mental weakness" as an excuse not to serve, you're the one who criticizes current soldiers and former, and future, and yet you never served, and the bullshit reason that you never served just goes to show how spineless you really are, you are a sofa General, always bitching and complaining about military action, but you never done any of it, and you never will have the balls to do any of it, you will just sit on your ass day in and day out bitching about every branch of the military like you were a former four star general, while conveniently hiding behind your bullshit excuse of being "mentally weak".

You obey out of duty...

A "duty" you choose to heed.

Your choice was enlisting, past that, you have little in the way of "choice", except in those rare circumstances...

You always have a choice, because enlisting didn't magically take your free will away.

People's lives are on the line, and unless you explicitly know a certain action is unlawful, you carry out that order, even if you may think it is "wrong"... I'm not going to place my personal view or opinion above the lives of the people standing next to me... Something a civilian as yourself will never grasp, because you've never been there.

None of which takes away from the fact that everything you mentioned you do because you choose to. You choose not "to place your personal view" and yadda yadda yadda.

Funny how he, who has never served, can have that opinion, while others who have never served he claims cannot have any opinion on the matter of the military, at all.

The difference between you and me is, that I don't talk about what I don't know. I don't know what it's like serving, I never will, so ergo, I tend to hold my tounge when people start talking about the hardship of serving, and I don't act like a pompous ass by assuming that I know what it's like to serve and how "easy" it is to disregard an order, or that I will have time to think things through, never mind the fact that most of the time, you have people shooting at you, so you have to think on your feet.

No, I don't assume what it's like to be a soldier, I just thank them for their service and the sacrifice that they make because it is hard, it is rough, and they do make huge sacrifice, sometimes with their lives.

Thank you Veterans...As a military wife, I know what you all have to sacrifice and it's not easy, so thank you all!

Yeah, you keep telling yourself that and using it as an excuse for not having served, and then bitch about others not having served. As I said, the very definition of hiding behind something. In stead of accepting that you never served and thus cannot ever attempt to in a silly fashion try to hold not serving against anyone else (especially someone who doesn't give a shit that you hypocritically choose to do something as futile as that because he doesn't see it dishonourable not to have served, on the contrary!), you trot out your handicap and hide behind it so that you can pretend to be able to. As if you somehow had served, when you hadn't.

and what were you doing with your "mental weakness" showing your superiority? Because guess what buddy boy, I actually went down to the recruitment center when I turned 18, I went to the Air Force, they were the one who turned me down because of what I have, so what were you saying again?

Once again you arrogant ass, there's a difference between what you are born with, in my case Goldenhar Syndrome

Yeah, you keep telling yourself that and using it as an excuse for not having served, and then bitch about others not having served. As I said, the very definition of hiding behind something. In stead of accepting that you never served and thus cannot ever attempt to in a silly fashion try to hold not serving against anyone else (especially someone who doesn't give a shit that you hypocritically choose to do something as futile as that because he doesn't see it dishonourable not to have served, on the contrary!), you trot out your handicap and hide behind it so that you can pretend to be able to. As if you somehow had served, when you hadn't.

You always have a choice, because enlisting didn't magically take your free will away.

It's a Hobson's choice in many cases. If you choose to disobey an order that is not a war crime or otherwise illegal, you're likely going to end up imprisoned or worse. So, you can disobey, but at serious cost to yourself and your future both inside and out of the military. There is little freedom in the military because a military can't function without the kind of order and chain of command that is in place; this obviously has its shortcomings, but for as long as armed forces are required, this is the only practical model.

The difference between you and me is, that I don't talk about what I don't know. I don't know what it's like serving, I never will, so ergo, I tend to hold my tounge when people start talking about the hardship of serving, and I don't act like a pompous ass by assuming that I know what it's like to serve and how "easy" it is to disregard an order

No, you'd just like to hypocritically to your own "logic" be able to state that you know the "world of hurt they'd be in" and claim that you can defend them, despite your own claims that someone who has never served cannot have any opinion on it. So, which is it gonna be? You can have an opinion despite not having served, or you can't?

I too am a veteran. You don't want to know the things I saw in Battlefield 1942.:(

It's a Hobson's choice in many cases. If you choose to disobey an order that is not a war crime or otherwise illegal, you're likely going to end up imprisoned or worse. So, you can disobey, but at serious cost to yourself and your future both inside and out of the military.

Yup, and the consequence of the choice doesn't efface the choice. "I had no choice, otherwise I'd've been punished!" Yeah, you could have chosen to take the punishment. That is a choice.

No, you'd just like to hypocritically to your own "logic" be able to state that you know the "world of hurt they'd be in" and claim that you can defend them, despite your own claims that someone who has never served cannot have any opinion on it. So, which is it gonna be? You can have an opinion despite not having served, or you can't?

Ok, it's time for breaking it down so that even an idiot can understand this, by Wilgrove!

A. You comment on how the military should just be able to disobey an order, despite the fact that in doing so, they are putting themselves at great risk. You seem to ehh not get the last part, disobeying an order isn't exactly as easy as saying "No, not tonight" to your husband, lover, wife, whatever.

B. I however on the other hand give thanks to our Veterans and really don't comment on what it's like to be in the military because well, eh I don't know, I just don't, so it wouldn't make sense for me to comment on what they go through right? Right.

C. I made said comments to point out the foolishness of commenting on what military life is like and how our brave men and women should act in uniform even though those making the comment, like you Mr. "Mentally weak" Fass never served, and it's not that you can't serve, it's that you won't serve. There's a big fucking difference between the two.

This has been "breaking it down for idiots" by Wilgrove.

Yup, and the consequence of the choice doesn't efface the choice. "I had no choice, otherwise I'd've been punished!" Yeah, you could have chosen to take the punishment. That is a choice.

However, a choice that isn't really free isn't a choice at all, except in an abstract sense that doesn't really apply to the reality that people have to face when confronting a situation like this. There is no realistic way the soldier could do anything else except follow orders without risking massively negative consequences. In fact, this is the exact reason why many war crimes have happened; soldiers were incapable of disobeying orders due to the severe punishments, with predictable results.

If no one tells you something is wrong and the entire system is designed to discourage the kind of questioning that can prevent these atrocities from happening, what else can you do but follow orders? This is further compounded by the fact that the military can't remove that system of punishments or else discipline will break down, placing many soldiers and civilians in danger and reducing the effectiveness of the force to fulfill its duties.

I'm saying again you have something mighty convenient to explain why the story of your having gone down to that recruitment centre has as a conclusion that you are sitting here not having served, bitching about others not having served. I call that convenient, little something a thing you hide behind to be able to before yourself do your claiming and your bitching. Not before me, though, because I see through it.

and I see through your bullshitness to, you're not "mentally weak" it's something that a shrink made up for you as a favor to you, probably after a night of passionate love making.

Once again, there's a difference between can't serve and won't serve.

Try to guess which one is you.

and what were you doing with your "mental weakness" showing your superiority? Because guess what buddy boy, I actually went down to the recruitment center when I turned 18, I went to the Air Force, they were the one who turned me down because of what I have, so what were you saying again?

I'm saying again you have something mighty convenient to explain why the story of your having gone down to that recruitment centre has as a conclusion that you are sitting here not having served, bitching about others not having served. I call that convenient, little something a thing you hide behind to be able to before yourself do your claiming and your bitching. Not before me, though, because I see through it.

You obey out of duty... Your choice was enlisting, past that, you have little in the way of "choice", except in those rare circumstances... People's lives are on the line, and unless you explicitly know a certain action is unlawful, you carry out that order, even if you may think it is "wrong"... I'm not going to place my personal view or opinion above the lives of the people standing next to me... Something a civilian as yourself will never grasp, because you've never been there.
OK, so you're willing to abandon your values where people's lives are on the line. But that's not always so. Are you still willing to forsake your values and your morals if it's not obvious that lives (of the people standing next to you) are in the balance?

And what if you suspect that a certain action is unlawful, but you aren't certain? Where do you draw the line where the knowledge of (lack of) legality is concerned?

No, I don't assume what it's like to be a soldier, I just thank them for their service and the sacrifice that they make because it is hard, it is rough, and they do make huge sacrifice, sometimes with their lives.
Actually... You kinda do assume... Right there in that post, you assume it's hard, rough etc.

and what apparently you and a shrink came up with after a night out on the town and one too many bottles of wine.

You know, accusations only really make sense if they have some validity.


You are the one who's hiding behind this "mental weakness" as an excuse not to serve, you're the one who criticizes current soldiers and former, and future, and yet you never served, and the bullshit reason that you never served just goes to show how spineless you really are, you are a sofa General, always bitching and complaining about military action, but you never done any of it, and you never will have the balls to do any of it, you will just sit on your ass day in and day out bitching about every branch of the military like you were a former four star general, while conveniently hiding behind your bullshit excuse of being "mentally weak".

Given that he objected to serving and was ready to face the consequences, I wouldn't call him "spineless" or "weak". It takes guts to refuse to do military service when you can be sent to prison for it. Especially when, as a Swede, he knew that military service would not mean actual deployment in a combat situation.

But a choice that isn't really free isn't a choice at all, except in an abstract sense.

It is free. No constraints have been put on one's ability to choose between the two options. That the options are of a limited numerus (be it two, a hundred, a thousand) and that there are pressures in favour of one option has no bearing on the freedom one has to make the choice because the options are there and merit a choice.

There is no realistic way the soldier could do anything else except follow orders without risking massively negative consequences.

Again, the consequence of a choice doesn't efface the choice. The argument that it does didn't work in Nürnberg and won't work today for you, either.

and I see through your bullshitness to, you're not "mentally weak" it's something that a shrink made up for you as a favor to you, probably after a night of passionate love making.


1) He's gay, and the shrink was a woman.

2) You're really starting to make yourself look very foolish.

You know, accusations only really make sense if they have some validity.

Eh never know, it could be true.

Given that he objected to serving and was ready to face the consequences, I wouldn't call him "spineless" or "weak". It takes guts to refuse to do military service when you can be sent to prison for it. Especially when, as a Swede, he knew that military service would not mean actual deployment in a combat situation.

Oh please, he didn't refuse, he had a shrink saying that he was too "mentally weak" to serve, If he actually refused, he would've gone to the Swedish military and told them that he objects to the military and refuses to serve. He's no better than Cheney and other Chicken hawks in my country who also got excuses to why they can't (well won't is more accurate) serve.

A "duty" you choose to heed.



You always have a choice, because enlisting didn't magically take your free will away.



None of which takes away from the fact that everything you mentioned you do because you choose to. You choose not "to place your personal view" and yadda yadda yadda.

When you enlist in the military you take an oath to abey the orders of the President and those commanding you. We also have a diffent set of laws, Uniform Code of Military Justice. Unless the order is unlawful, I am under obligation to follow them, if not I can be put on trial for disobeying a direct order. Which is a few years in the brig and dishonorable discharge.

Thank You to all the Vets, Who have served our country

Oh please, he didn't refuse, he had a shrink saying that he was too "mentally weak" to serve, If he actually refused, he would've gone to the Swedish military and told them that he objects to the military and refuses to serve. He's no better than Cheney and other Chicken hawks in my country who also got excuses to why they can't (well won't is more accurate) serve.

As I understand it, he did say it to the military:


I objected to the draft and in stead of being sent to prison for it, I was fortunate enough to have a kind psychologist at the muster choose to deem me "unsuitable for service due to poor ability to handle the stress of the military" or some such nebulosity because she at the time of military budget restraints could be quite generous with that instead of having to take the issue to court. I might as easily have ended up with someone who would have reported it for what it was - objection. I would have taken the consequence, but fortunately didn't have to, and fortunately no one else will have to either soon because the government is drafting a law to repeal the penalty of imprisonment for objectors.

A. You comment on how the military should just be able to disobey an order, despite the fact that in doing so, they are putting themselves at great risk. You seem to ehh not get the last part, disobeying an order isn't exactly as easy as saying "No, not tonight" to your husband, lover, wife, whatever.

Again, the consequence is irrelevant to the ability of choosing.

B. I however on the other hand give thanks to our Veterans and really don't comment on what it's like to be in the military because well, eh I don't know, I just don't, so it wouldn't make sense for me to comment on what they go through right? Right.

"because it is hard, it is rough, and they do make huge sacrifice, sometimes with their lives"

You wrote that, Mr. Non-Server. So clearly, despite not having served, you deem yourself capable of having the opinion that it is "hard", "rough" and so on. But others who haven't served cannot have an opinion? Only you?

"military life is like and how our brave men and women

There you go again commenting on how they're "brave" and whatnot, despite not having served yourself. Isn't it amazing what your hypocrisy makes possible for you?

Soldiers, especially in volunteer armies, are nothing but hired goons. They are not resolved from culpability over anything just because they had their employer tell them to do something, no matter how glossy you'd like to cum shine their image.

Um, Fass, my boyfriend is in the Air Force. He volunteered. He is certainly much more than a "hired goon." He recognizes he has the duty to refuse orders which would cause more harm than good. He knows he has culpability for his decisions.

Please don't make blanket statements like this. It damages the reputations of good soldiers who can recognize when they have bad leaders.

Oh please, he didn't refuse, he had a shrink saying that he was too "mentally weak" to serve, If he actually refused, he would've gone to the Swedish military and told them that he objects to the military and refuses to serve.

Wait, you claim to have gone down and tried to sign up, but you don't know what a "muster" is? Hilarious discrepancy in your story, there. For your information, a muster in Sweden entails that you go before the military and are tested ("muster" meaning "formal military inspection", after all). Those tests (apart from the physical and mental acuity tests) include a psychiatric evaluation by a, you guessed it, military shrink. You do know the military have shrinks, don't you? I mean, you did go down and try to sign up and knew oh, so much about the military and their processes, didn't you?

He's no better than Cheney and other Chicken hawks in my country who also got excuses to why they can't (well won't is more accurate) serve.

Just like you had an excuse that you're hiding behind now.

I too am a veteran. You don't want to know the things I saw in Battlefield 1942.:(

Server/nickname?

I'd imagine it'd be for yourself first and foremost. After all, primarily it's you that have to live with yourself.


I can imagine it would be difficult deciding what is best for yourself, in the end.
There are a lot of consequences for disobeying an order, not to mention the fact that you may be leaving your fellow soldiers behind, which you might see as failing them. On the other hand there could be a morally questionable order which, if executed, could haunt you forever.
I wouldn't know, never having been in the military.

Soldiers, especially in volunteer armies, are nothing but hired goons. They are not resolved from culpability over anything just because they had their employer tell them to do something, no matter how glossy you'd like to cum shine their image.

Let me know when you actually want to debate.

You do know the military have shrinks, don't you? I mean, you did go down and try to sign up and knew oh, so much about the military and their processes, didn't you?

Maybe it is different in America? For some reason, I can see the U.S Military being a lot less picky..:p
Just like you had an excuse that you're hiding behind now.
I'm flat-footed, and unless my country is physically invaded, I am going to hide behind that until it fails.. Then I move to Canada.

Let me know when you actually want to debate.

Ditto.

I to raise a toast as well as my thanks to all those serving, have served and are going to serve in our military.

Thanks for your sacrifice, time, blood, sweat and tears.

So raise a glass and have one for me.
http://smilies.vidahost.com/otn/party/beerchug.gif

After looking at the thread in Moderation, I'd say it's time to give this thread a rest. Feel free to start a new thread on the topic after a while so discussion of the topics here can go on. Hopefully it can be somewhat less heated.

NationStates Forum Moderator
HotRodia