NationStates Jolt Archive

Sorry if this has been posted b4.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,,2207426,00.html
A 23-year-old Heathrow airport worker who dubbed herself the "lyrical terrorist" today became the first woman to be convicted under the government's anti-terror legislation.

Samina Malik, who burst into tears on hearing the verdict, wrote poems entitled How To Behead and The Living Martyrs and stocked a "library" of documents useful to terrorists.

On the social networking site Hi5 she listed her interests as: "Helping the mujaheddin in any way which I can ... I am well known as lyrical terrorist."

The jury at the Old Bailey found Malik guilty by a majority of 10 to one of possessing records likely to be used for terrorism.

Judge Peter Beaumont, the Recorder of London, bailed Malik on "house arrest" and ordered reports into her family background ahead of the sentencing on December 6, warning her that jail remained a possibility.

"You have been, in many respects, a complete enigma to me," he told her.

Malik, who worked at WH Smith at the airport, was arrested in October last year. When her bedroom was searched police found a ringbinder full of documents as well as a bracelet bearing the word "jihad".

There was also a sticker on a mirror inside the door, bearing the words "lyrical terrorist".

In one handwritten document found by police, she wrote: "I want to have the death of a shaheed [martyr] ... I want the opportunity to take part in the blessed sacred duty of jihad."

Also found were publications from an Islamist extremist group called Followers of Ahl us-Sunnah Wal-Jammaa'ah, linked to another group, The Saved Sect, and to the extremist cleric Sheikh Omar Bakri.

In a box file in the family lounge was a printed version of the "declaration of war" by Osama bin Laden.

One of Malik's poems, entitled The Living Martyrs, said: "Let us make Jihad/ Move to the front line/ To chop chop head of kuffar swine".

A second poem was called How to Behead. "It's not as messy or as hard as some may think/ It's all about the flow of the wrist," it read.

The Mujaheddin Poisoner's Handbook, Encyclopaedia Jihad, How To Win In Hand To Hand Combat, and How To Make Bombs and Sniper Manual were found on her computer.

The court heard Malik joined an extremist organisation called Jihad Way, set up explicitly to disseminate terrorist propaganda and support for al Qaida.

Jonathan Sharp, prosecuting, said she was an "unlikely" but "committed" Islamic extremist: "She had a library of material that she had collected for terrorist purposes. That collection would be extremely useful for someone planning terrorist activity."

But Malik, of Townsend Road, Southall, west London, told the jury: "I am not a terrorist." She claimed to have used the nickname "lyrical terrorist" because she thought it was "cool".:headbang:

Malik was convicted of possessing records likely to be useful in terrorism under the Terrorism Act 2000. She was earlier cleared by a jury of a separate count of possessing an article for terrorism.


Here are some of her "poems".

It's not as messy or as hard as some may think
It's all about the flow of the wrist
Sharpen the knife to its maximum
And before you begin to cut the flesh
Tilt the fools head to its left
Saw the knife back and forth"
"No doubt that the punk will twitch and scream
But ignore the donkey's ass
And continue to slice back and forth
You'll feel the knife hit the wind and food pipe
- But Don't Stop -
Continue with all your might
About now you should feel the knife vibrate
You can feel the warm heat being given off
But this is due to the friction being caused.

"In did we sleep
While in our broken lands did mothers sleep
The chaos and the pain
Blood pouring everywhere like rain
Common for a sister became rape
By that stinking kuffar ape"
"The child born free of sin
Rewarded with gun rattle
Piercing through his father's head
Unaware he is now dead
Until girl is taken from her mother's hand
And she has now become sand
And this is from those claiming to be humane
Driving me insane
For the living martyrs are awakening
And Kuffars world soon to be shaking
We stand firm to our belief
Knowing with Allah is only relief"

Is this a case of "coolness" going horribly bad as she claims did she really intended to cause harm...

I would like to believe the former but the amount of hate and bigotry in the "poems" makes me sceptical.

Er, if I remember rightly that library also included weapons manuals etc.

link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7085889.stm)
And yet during the course of the trial the jury has heard she downloaded manuals from the internet with such titles as "How to Win in Hand to Hand Combat" and "The Mujahideen Poisons Handbook."

Which was more pertinent to her getting convicted than her poems.

Wow...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
I'M SERIOUSLY RUNNING OUT OF ELLIPSES HERE, PEOPLE!

I'm laughing inside, but not outside.

Wait, there we go. It actually managed to garner a chuckle.

Truly disgusting, there are some evil people in this world, and I think she is one of them.

Sorry if this has been posted b4.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,,2207426,00.html

Is this a case of "coolness" going horribly bad as she claims did she really intended to cause harm...

I would like to believe the former but the amount of hate and bigotry in the "poems" makes me sceptical.

The Mujaheddin Poisoner's Handbook, Encyclopaedia Jihad, How To Win In Hand To Hand Combat, and How To Make Bombs and Sniper Manual were found on her computer.

This was not "coolness" gone wrong...I think she clearly intended some "Kuffars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir)" to be harmed

Truly disgusting, there are some evil people in this world, and I think she is one of them.

Looks to me like she's mainly a complete and utter moron.

Good, she deserves what she gets. Let's hope the other inmates give her a warm welcome like this guy (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=469978&in_page_id=1770&in_a_source=&ito=1490) got (If she does get jailed).

It's not as messy or as hard as some may think
It's all about the flow of the wrist
Sharpen the knife to its maximum
And before you begin to cut the flesh
Tilt the fools head to its left
Saw the knife back and forth"
"No doubt that the punk will twitch and scream
But ignore the donkey's ass
And continue to slice back and forth
You'll feel the knife hit the wind and food pipe
- But Don't Stop -
Continue with all your might
About now you should feel the knife vibrate
You can feel the warm heat being given off
But this is due to the friction being caused.

Sounds familiar, wasn't she on Thought for the Day a while ago?

If she intended to do harm she should be punished, but I believe a full pyschological investigation needs to be conducted. A lot of young, troubled people write about killing and death. Has she made attempts to obtain weapons? Aparently not. Had she planned any vilent acts? Aparently not. I think keeping her under close watch would have been better. If it looked liek she was actually goign to go something, then go for her. I think she is just a seriously screwed up young woman, one of many...

We are too ready to jump to conclusions by what she wrote, not what she seriously planned or tried to do. It sounds stupid, but I think it's also true if she were a white Christian kid she wouldn't be under house arrest, but on the counch...

If it comes back from the psychological reports that it seems beyond reaosnable doubt she truly did intend to act on these fantasies, then fair enough, go for the jugular...

I'm a lyrical terrorist
Killing all you kaffir dead
Beheading's all in the wrist

We will reap our vengeance
On the ways of the West
I hope that you see the light

Lyrical terrorist
I want to take your life
Lyrical terrorist
Helping the mujahideen
Lyrical terrorist
Writing your death on the wall
Whoa, yeah

They tell I'm crazy
Take me to court
Lock me up in the rubber room

I got something to say
To those who take me away
You'll burn in hell, all you fools!

Helping my brethren
Sharpening the knife
Going for the jugular
Say goodbye to your life!

I couldn't help it. I just started writing.

So she was only put on trial for writing lyrics?

That's fucking shit. She seems a little psychotic to me, but damn... I don't see how she is a criminal for writing poetry, no matter how sick it may seem.

So she was only put on trial for writing lyrics?

That's fucking shit. She seems a little psychotic to me, but damn... I don't see how she is a criminal for writing poetry, no matter how sick it may seem.

No it was more the poison and sniper manuals that she had.

If she intended to do harm she should be punished, but I believe a full pyschological investigation needs to be conducted. A lot of young, troubled people write about killing and death. Has she made attempts to obtain weapons? Aparently not. Had she planned any vilent acts? Aparently not. I think keeping her under close watch would have been better. If it looked liek she was actually goign to go something, then go for her. I think she is just a seriously screwed up young woman, one of many...

We are too ready to jump to conclusions by what she wrote, not what she seriously planned or tried to do. It sounds stupid, but I think it's also true if she were a white Christian kid she wouldn't be under house arrest, but on the counch...

If it comes back from the psychological reports that it seems beyond reaosnable doubt she truly did intend to act on these fantasies, then fair enough, go for the jugular...

But who did she actually harm? Seems like fascist fucking shit to me.

I fucking write lyrics about killing. I never have actually killed people or encouraged others to kill people, but I have wrote a few songs on subjects of burning churches, slaying dictators, and making bombs. That doesn't make me a terrorist or a criminal. It makes me a writer.

So she was only put on trial for writing lyrics?

That's fucking shit. She seems a little psychotic to me, but damn... I don't see how she is a criminal for writing poetry, no matter how sick it may seem.

Eh. She was also put on trial for posessing things like a mujahideen's guide to poisons. I don't know, I think that could definitely end up with a dead guy somewhere.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13203156']Good, she deserves what she gets. Let's hope the other inmates give her a warm welcome like this guy (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=469978&in_page_id=1770&in_a_source=&ito=1490) got (If she does get jailed).

I don't know much about this guy but...

You actually read the Daily Mail? Wow...fascist alert.

I don't know much about this guy but...

You actually read the Daily Mail? Wow...fascist alert.
Nope, I just remembered the story from before and did a Google search for it. That was what came up first. But the Daily Mail.... I know by reputation it's right wing but I think fascist may be a little harsh!

Heh.

At least it's better than the usual evidence, which is essentially "they had a map of Afghanistan and were poor Muslims", eh?

What a load of horse dung. Being arrested for that? Why not arrest the people that actually make the bombs, not poets.

I'll address this first, then make a short uninformed comment on the story.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13203156']Good, she deserves what she gets. Let's hope the other inmates give her a warm welcome like this guy (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=469978&in_page_id=1770&in_a_source=&ito=1490) got (If she does get jailed).

So, if she gets jailed you're OK with her being tortured by other inmates?
I just want to be sure that's what you're saying, and that you aren't joking ... it's so hard to tell with some posters.

--------------------------

If I wrote poetry like that, I would:


Get a job where I didn't have to look at "anti-terrorism" enforcement (an airport, no.)
Enrol in a creative writing class (or more likely, try my hand at painting in oils instead)
Do some basic research so I don't come across to the terrorists I admire as a complete dork.


Now, if I was up on her charges and I wanted not to be convicted, I would tender my own poetry as evidence that I had not wred the terrorist handbooks really much at all.

I think she's pushing the line on purpose. Just as some dork-type satanists get a thrill out of tempting the wrath of a God they pretend not to believe in, this sad individual is tempting the wrath of a Law she doesn't believe in.

5 minutes reading, 10 minutes typing. The above is obviously BS.

So, if she gets jailed you're OK with her being tortured by other inmates?
I just want to be sure that's what you're saying, and that you aren't joking ... it's so hard to tell with some posters.
I was testing the waters, to see reactions. I wouldn't go as far as encouraging that sort of thing, but I certainly don't have any sympathy when it does happen to the scum. Anyway, it's not just about the poems, there's all the other terrorist literature she was found with.

If she wanted to be a terrorist, and do the things that terrorists do, that includes being sent to jail for being a homocidal arsehole who finds ways to justify killing innocent people. There's a difference between pure fantasy and supporting criminal activities: you can bet that her poems were circulated. Who knows what other young extremists are doing based on her goading. She was apparently very active on the extremist internet scene, where Al Qaeda are now based.

She sounds like a very silly girl, who has some serious issues. Hopefully she'll learn that, actually, beheading people isn't cool, and thatpeople do and should be prosecuted for this kind of crap. She wants the name, she should play the game. That includes getting jailed.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13203243']Nope, I just remembered the story from before and did a Google search for it. That was what came up first. But the Daily Mail.... I know by reputation it's right wing but I think fascist may be a little harsh!

Well there was that whole "supporting Hitler and the Nazis in the 30s and only stopping when the war started and even then because the government told them to" thing ;) But yeah, that's all in the past now. Of course it is. :p.

Those poems are horrible.
I don't even mean content-wise...they are terribly written and rambling.
Not that I would know anything about poetry.
*self-proclaimed poet*

Those poems are horrible.
I don't even mean content-wise...they are terribly written and rambling.
Not that I would know anything about poetry.
*self-proclaimed poet*

There is that, as well xD

I have a feeling that this sort of fascination with islamism is on the rise with young muslims in the UK. There is a board that I trawl when I am bored and it is filled with young Pakistani muslims from the UK who are completely smitten with jihadist romanticism. Many openly write about killing kuffars and such jihadi slogans etc.

I honestly don't know if that is a phase they will grow out of or they will get more stupid and get recruited into something serious.

Eh. She was also put on trial for posessing things like a mujahideen's guide to poisons. I don't know, I think that could definitely end up with a dead guy somewhere.

Yikes... for possessing information? I can easily get information about poisons, guns, nuclear weapons... doesn't mean I am actually going to try to kill anyone. This slides a little too close to "thought police state" for my tastes.

IF it could be proved that her actual intentions were to use this info to cause terrorist acts, well then I might be sympathetic to the courts decision... but that would be a big if. Other than that, she is no worse than any emo teenager writing about suicide, really, and should, perhaps, be offered psychiatric counseling if she wants it, but other than that left to her hobby, no matter how perverse it may seem. At most, perhaps, an eye might be kept on her to see if she makes any moves towards using the info, but this story so far seems like she did not.

Despicable enough, and in an ideal world somebody would arrange for her to be vegetabilised in an unfortunate car accident, however, I really see no reason to convict the silly bint of anything.

Unless god awful poetry is a crime in itself, which is, I hope, a possibility.

Unless god awful poetry is a crime in itself, which is, I hope, a possibility.

That would seem to be the only legitimate reason to bring charges. It's godawful poetry, not an Al Qaeda recruiting video...

She is a despicable person. Killing is bad enough,but advocating for others to CUT OFF A HEAD is just evil.

She is a despicable person. Killing is bad enough,but advocating for others to CUT OFF A HEAD is just evil.

Yes, but being dispicable isn't reason enough to put someone in jail. Pat Robertson is a dispicable bigot, but he isn't in jail.

Despicable enough, and in an ideal world somebody would arrange for her to be vegetabilised in an unfortunate car accident, however, I really see no reason to convict the silly bint of anything.

Unless god awful poetry is a crime in itself, which is, I hope, a possibility.

Here is a poem about Grue
He is about to eat you
I think I will leave now
Before I'm tossed to jail, pow

There, I am now a criminal :<

*giggles for the heck of it*

Here is a poem about Grue
He is about to eat you
I think I will leave now
Before I'm tossed to jail, pow

There, I am now a criminal :<

*giggles for the heck of it*

You have it. The difference between guilt and innocence is whether one giggled when giving testimony in court. :0

It's strange that someone could get convicted of terrorism for this, I mean I can't remember the amount of times I have called for the violent overthrow of capitalism and the killing of all reactionaries. I'll say it right now if you like, 'I call to arms all proletarians, to kill you're reactionary capitalist overlords in the name of socialist revolution!'

Uhhh, people...

...the poetry isn't the main thing here. The manuals on bomb-making, poisoning and hand-to-hand combat are what seem to have got her into trouble, combined with incitement to kill.

Not just some awful poetry.

But who did she actually harm? Seems like fascist fucking shit to me.

I fucking write lyrics about killing. I never have actually killed people or encouraged others to kill people, but I have wrote a few songs on subjects of burning churches, slaying dictators, and making bombs. That doesn't make me a terrorist or a criminal. It makes me a writer.

Sorry abt the late reply to this, only just picked up on this thread... My point is that we she didn't harm anyone and that we dont know if she intended too. Rather the assumption has been that she did, with little convincing evidence. Locking people up without a fairly solid ground to suspect that she did intend to do harm, or get others to do so, is only to aggreviate things between Muslims and non-Muslims in the UK and that isn't what we need. We need more information here.

We don't see evidence that she was actively going out to recruit or incite people.

Here is a poem about Grue
He is about to eat you
I think I will leave now
Before I'm tossed to jail, pow

There, I am now a criminal :<

*giggles for the heck of it*

That was dire.

The giggle gains you entry to a mental asylum.

Yikes... for possessing information? I can easily get information about poisons, guns, nuclear weapons... doesn't mean I am actually going to try to kill anyone. This slides a little too close to "thought police state" for my tastes.

IF it could be proved that her actual intentions were to use this info to cause terrorist acts, well then I might be sympathetic to the courts decision... but that would be a big if. Other than that, she is no worse than any emo teenager writing about suicide, really, and should, perhaps, be offered psychiatric counseling if she wants it, but other than that left to her hobby, no matter how perverse it may seem. At most, perhaps, an eye might be kept on her to see if she makes any moves towards using the info, but this story so far seems like she did not.

True, she needs couch time instead of jail time.

Sorry abt the late reply to this, only just picked up on this thread... My point is that we she didn't harm anyone and that we dont know if she intended too. Rather the assumption has been that she did, with little convincing evidence. Locking people up without a fairly solid ground to suspect that she did intend to do harm, or get others to do so, is only to aggreviate things between Muslims and non-Muslims in the UK and that isn't what we need. We need more information here.

We don't see evidence that she was actively going out to recruit or incite people.

I think it may have been this:
On the social networking site Hi5 she listed her interests as: "Helping the mujaheddin in any way which I can ... I am well known as lyrical terrorist."

along with her collection of materials and her choice of subject in poetry that may have alarmed people.

You do have to be cognizant of the fact that what you say CAN have consequences. Last week, some idiot in my school thought that setting a fire in a garbage can next to the water fountain was funny.

This week, one of my students kept saying he was the one who did it. (He's an idiot, but certainly not dumb enough to light a fire in a garbage can and brag about it.) No fewer than three separate teachers told him not to say that and why...

...boom, he sings it out in front of the principal, then wonders why all kinds of hell breaks loose and he's hauled down to her office. He's lucky he wasn't hauled out in handcuffs, really, and his attitude is still, "I didn't do anything, why did they waste their time hassling me?!" (Oh, and they took away his lighter.)

She sounds more like a poser to me. All talk no action. We should just let her continue her ramblings because she isn't a harm unless you actually read that stuff,in which case you are putting yourself through torture.

But I guess it's better safe than sorry.

I'm surprised by the number of people saying "what did she do wrong?" 'Incitement to Murder' is a crime in this country, as are 'Glorifying Terrorism' and 'Incitement to Religious Hatred'. I'd say that there's enough evidence to convict her on the first two, and even if there wasn't it's bloody obvious that she's guilty of the third if she ever showed anyone those poems.

I'm surprised by the number of people saying "what did she do wrong?" 'Incitement to Murder' is a crime in this country, as are 'Glorifying Terrorism' and 'Incitement to Religious Hatred'. I'd say that there's enough evidence to convict her on the first two, and even if there wasn't it's bloody obvious that she's guilty of the third if she ever showed anyone those poems.


I think you mey be being too legalistic. I can readily accept that she is guilty according to the stipulations of the above laws; what I dispute is the logic of the laws themselves.

I've heard worst from people who actually get paid to say these things, (like musicians, artists, actors.). Europeans are weird, it's a freedom of speech when they (media) talk about prophet Mohamed as a terrorist and a adulterer but suddenly somebody writes down something as equally inflaming but that person pose danger to society. You have to really draw the line on somewhere. Also, by arresting her, all you do is make people go underground and that makes tracking them a little bit harder. All I’ve seen about these anti-terrorist laws is that they only get the wrong people. Now from reading the poems this woman has written, she surely needs some medical attention. I can’t believe we’ve reached the point in which people can be imprisoned for their thoughts.

I think you mey be being too legalistic. I can readily accept that she is guilty according to the stipulations of the above laws; what I dispute is the logic of the laws themselves.

'Glorifying Terrorism' is certainly a dangerously poorly-defined law, and Incitement to Religious Hatred can be too broadly applied, but Incitement to Murder is a perfectly reasonable law, in much the same way that it would be illegal to put a bounty on somebody's head.

The Politburo would be impressed with this move. *strokes chin*


Uhhh, people...

...the poetry isn't the main thing here. The manuals on bomb-making, poisoning and hand-to-hand combat are what seem to have got her into trouble, combined with incitement to kill.


Since when does owning literature (all legal by the sounds of it) constitute arrest? I mean come on.

I've heard worst from people who actually get paid to say these things, (like musicians, artists, actors.). Europeans are weird, it's a freedom of speech when they (media) talk about prophet Mohamed as a terrorist and a adulterer but suddenly somebody writes down something as equally inflaming but that person pose danger to society. You have to really draw the line on somewhere.

Do you honestly not see the difference between insulting a guy who's been dead for over a thousand years and inciting murder against everyone who doesn't follow your particular religion? If a newspaper was to call for all Muslims to be beheaded then it would be shut down, quite rightly, and freedom of speech wouldn't protect them.

Insults and satire are protected speech, incitement is not.

Do you honestly not see the difference between insulting a guy who's been dead for over a thousand years and inciting murder against everyone who doesn't follow your particular religion?
Alot of truth up there^

The Politburo would be impressed with this move. *strokes chin*

The silly bitch incited murder, now she's got to take the rap for it.

Since when does owning literature (all legal by the sounds of it) constitute arrest? I mean come on.

Even ignoring the three laws which I've already suggested were sufficient to convict her, I don't think owning terrorist manuals is not legal. Intent is key: owning blueprints of the Houses of Parliament and carefully scoping out the security is not illegal in itself, but if you're planning to use them for acts of terrorism then you're committing a crime.

Absurd.
I hope the residents of the UK are happy with their police state.

The silly bitch incited murder, now she's got to take the rap for it.
Meh. Mouse coughing in a hurricane. Watch her, don't round her up.


Even ignoring the three laws which I've already suggested were sufficient to convict her
Well I haven't read what three you've specified yet, but I will go back.

I don't think owning terrorist manuals is not legal.
Double negative?

Intent is key: owning blueprints of the Houses of Parliament and carefully scoping out the security is not illegal in itself, but if you're planning to use them for acts of terrorism then you're committing a crime.
I agree. But did they prove any intent? Doesn't look like it to me. She owned books. She wrote poems. She posted stuff on the net. She's an idiot.

I don't think adding that together warrants conviction IMO. Watch her, yeh, in case she does anything. But to me, it doesn't seem like she did anything, yet.

I wonder if people would be so sympathetic if the criminal was, for example, a male Neo-Nazi in Russia who wrote violent anti-immigrant poetry; expressed support for the murderous, racist thugs who posted a video online showing the beheading of two immigrant workers; and owned numerous manuals on bombmaking and terrorism. Would there be so many people leaping to his defence?

Fucking terrorist. Shoot her and throw the corpse in a ditch. And every other terror convict. We didn't allow Nazi spies to hang around in WW2; the same applies here.

I wonder if people would be so sympathetic if the criminal was, for example, a male Neo-Nazi in Russia who wrote violent anti-immigrant poetry; expressed support for the murderous, racist thugs who posted a video online showing the beheading of two immigrant workers; and owned numerous manuals on bombmaking and terrorism. Would there be so many people leaping to his defence?

Well, did he do anything illegal? Because its sounds like he merely passively supported them. How is that illegal?

(I don't agree with the British anti-terrorism laws, so maybe that's were the fundamental difference of my opinion stems from)

Meh. Mouse coughing in a hurricane. Watch her, don't round her up.

Better still, make an example of her to discourage other armchair terrorists.

Well I haven't read what three you've specified yet, but I will go back.

Apologies, I should have reposted. Please see below:

I'm surprised by the number of people saying "what did she do wrong?" 'Incitement to Murder' is a crime in this country, as are 'Glorifying Terrorism' and 'Incitement to Religious Hatred'. I'd say that there's enough evidence to convict her on the first two, and even if there wasn't it's bloody obvious that she's guilty of the third if she ever showed anyone those poems.

Double negative?

Guilty. :p

I agree. But did they prove any intent? Doesn't look like it to me. She owned books. She wrote poems. She posted stuff on the net. She's an idiot.

I'm not sure, but I was just using that as an example. I think incitement to murder and glorifying terrorism is sufficient.

I don't think adding that together warrants conviction IMO. Watch her, yeh, in case she does anything. But to me, it doesn't seem like she did anything, yet.

MI5 have enough suspects to watch as it is. Hopefully her conviction will scare away most of the wannabes and leave the police to focus on the hard-core of genuine terrorists.

Fucking terrorist. Shoot her and throw the corpse in a ditch. And every other terror convict. We didn't allow Nazi spies to hang around in WW2; the same applies here.

Erm... even in World War 2 I don't think we executed every German spy we caught. This is a civilised country and I'd prefer to leave capital punishment to the likes of Saudi Arabia and the US thank you very much.

Well, did he do anything illegal? Because its sounds like he merely passively supported them. How is that illegal?

(I don't agree with the British anti-terrorism laws, so maybe that's were the fundamental difference of my opinion stems from)

I don't agree with many of them (I think 'Glorifying Terrorism' is a ridiculously vague concept and should be scrapped) but inciting murder has been a crime for as long as I can remember.

Apologies, I should have reposted. Please see below:
Saw that.
'Glorifying Terrorism' is one law I'm not a fan of. Not that I'm for glorifying it! It's just, well, go into certain pubs around London or other UK cities and you'll hear some songs that are very supportive of a former paramilitary group from Northern Ireland. Does that mean, those people are inciting death? I don't really think so. I certainly don't think they should be convicted or even arrested based on "by singing those songs you were glorifying terrorism".

But that's just one weakness in that law I find.



Guilty. :p

Thought you were trying to confuse me :D


I'm not sure, but I was just using that as an example. I think incitement to murder and glorifying terrorism is sufficient.
While they are, I'm not so sure they're that easy to prove. Had it been someone from Northern Ireland in a similar circumstances in London, I don't know if it would have or could have been proven to be either incitement or glorification.


MI5 have enough suspects to watch as it is.
I don't even want to think about who they are watching and who they're not bothering to!

Hopefully her conviction will scare away most of the wannabes and leave the police to focus on the hard-core of genuine terrorists.
I'm not sayin' she wasn't an idiot. I just don't know if stupidity is a crime. *sigh* Shame though....

I don't agree with many of them (I think 'Glorifying Terrorism' is a ridiculously vague concept and should be scrapped) but inciting murder has been a crime for as long as I can remember.

Hey, even we don't have laws against "glorifying terrorism". It seems like the UK should spend some time cleaning its own house before it comes over here to critiscize our unmowed lawn.

hmm i can quite imagine someone getting carried away in the excitement or "coolness" of it all, being part of something... the lines where she wrote 'I want the opportunity to take part in the blessed sacred duty of jihad' just strikes me of..... a wannabe. same with the "lyrical terrorist" name. reminds me of Rich in the Young Ones wanting to be the 'People's Poet'... but what do i know?

if she had shit on her computer and in her house that would be useful to terrorists, and is part of a terrorist organisation, then i guess you could say she's a terrorist, or at least aiding terrorists.

Absurd.
I hope the residents of the UK are happy with their police state.
If she's giving detailed instructions as to how to decapitate someone and she makes her motives (helping the mujaheddin in any way she can) abundantly clear, it is inciting to violence.

If she'd just been churning out disturbing poetry sans political motivation, then it would be absurd.

Sorry if this has been posted b4.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,,2207426,00.html



Here are some of her "poems".





Is this a case of "coolness" going horribly bad as she claims did she really intended to cause harm...

I would like to believe the former but the amount of hate and bigotry in the "poems" makes me sceptical.

Reading stuff and writing some seriously awful poetry are not reasons for sending people to cuba to be sexually molested by rabid americans.

I heard about this yesterday ... still not sure if i think she should be sent to jail

on the one hand shes done nothing really .. words dont kill people .... but if shes inspired people to act in extremist ways then she need to see the error of her ways atelast


I dont know about any of you but when i was at school (that was nearly 11 years ago :eek:) i got given a disk with the jolly roger cook book on it ... if that is still in my house somewhere i presume i could be arrested under the anti terrorism act or something
(Jolly rogger cook book was a bit of an anarchists guide if i remember correctly ... stuff from making fertilizer and pipe bombers to potatoe launchers and using thermite to get money out of phone boxes etc..... dont google it though as if you get busted they could accuse you of being a terrorist)

She thought it was cool to write all of this stuff (so she claims) .. if she was just stupid then she need a good clout on the wrists ... if she was inspiring etc then she needs her asr3 whooping imo .. but will leave that for the judges to decide

The worst thing to come of her actions imo is her inspiring not what she did as shes done nothing illegal imo (might not be what i consider normal but meh half the world is fecked up imo lol)

Bad poetry is no reason to send someone to cuba to be raped by rabid americans.


It is!! along with good poets to :D:D

Bad poetry is no reason to send someone to cuba to be raped by rabid americans.

If she's giving detailed instructions as to how to decapitate someone and she makes her motives (helping the mujaheddin in any way she can) abundantly clear, it is inciting to violence.

If she'd just been churning out disturbing poetry sans political motivation, then it would be absurd.It's absurd either way, even if what she did is against British law.

Hey, even we don't have laws against "glorifying terrorism". It seems like the UK should spend some time cleaning its own house before it comes over here to critiscize our unmowed lawn.
We fought a 38-year guerilla war on our own soil. And won.

I think we know what we're doing ;)

We fought a 38-year guerilla war on our own soil. And won.

I think we know what we're doing ;)

Beat me to it.:)

Bad poetry is no reason to send someone to cuba to be raped by rabid americans.

I really want to call you a rude name for that remark. Just read the article, huh?

Look on the bright side. The Vogons haven't bulldozed our planet out of existence yet.

Most people with sick fantasies don't carry them out, people shouldn't be arrested for poems.

Look on the bright side. The Vogons haven't bulldozed our planet out of existence yet.What's bright about it? We're clearly a failure as an intelligent species. It seems cruel not putting us out of our misery.

EDIT: *Gets convicted of terrorism*

If she intended to do harm she should be punished, but I believe a full pyschological investigation needs to be conducted. A lot of young, troubled people write about killing and death. Has she made attempts to obtain weapons? Aparently not. Had she planned any vilent acts? Aparently not. I think keeping her under close watch would have been better. If it looked liek she was actually goign to go something, then go for her. I think she is just a seriously screwed up young woman, one of many...

We are too ready to jump to conclusions by what she wrote, not what she seriously planned or tried to do. It sounds stupid, but I think it's also true if she were a white Christian kid she wouldn't be under house arrest, but on the counch...

If it comes back from the psychological reports that it seems beyond reaosnable doubt she truly did intend to act on these fantasies, then fair enough, go for the jugular...

You're right about one thing, it does sound stupid. If she had been a white Christian kid writing such things about Muslims her entire family would be investigated by plod. Had she been Irish, she probably would have been killed out of hand by the state.

But who did she actually harm? Seems like fascist fucking shit to me.

I fucking write lyrics about killing. I never have actually killed people or encouraged others to kill people, but I have wrote a few songs on subjects of burning churches, slaying dictators, and making bombs. That doesn't make me a terrorist or a criminal. It makes me a writer.

"Incitement" I believe it's called. Try switching racial roles and your socialist lenses will see it more clearly.

Absurd.
I hope the residents of the UK are happy with their police state.

You have to bear in mind Jello that the UK supported terrorists within its own borders, engaged in terrorist acts against a fellow EU state, has a large armed forces, has been to war with most countries on Earth (including your own) and has CCTV cameras just about everywhere. Yet they are worried about EU bureaucracy. If you ever do go to the UK don't drink the water, there is obviously something in it to make them the way they are.

Erm... even in World War 2 I don't think we executed every German spy we caught. This is a civilised country and I'd prefer to leave capital punishment to the likes of Saudi Arabia and the US thank you very much.

Which would explain extra-judicial execution of your own citizens and then pretending it didn't happen no doubt.

You have to bear in mind Jello that the UK supported terrorists within its own borders, engaged in terrorist acts against a fellow EU state, has a large armed forces, has been to war with most countries on Earth (including your own) and has CCTV cameras just about everywhere. Yet they are worried about EU bureaucracy. If you ever do go to the UK don't drink the water, there is obviously something in it to make them the way they are.

The water's fine. It's just all the cell phone transmissions. What was it called again? Archangel Network or something like that...

We fought a 38-year guerilla war on our own soil. And won.

I think we know what we're doing ;)

Really? I thought you went into negotiations after one armed group (one of the ones the state wasn't giving weapons to) started attacking targets such as Aintree and the City of London. If you knew what you were doing, how come it lasted "38 years"?

It doesn't bode well does it? At least you had the Irish Sea as a barrier the last time and you could stop tens of thousands of people at ports of entry and impose media censorship. What are you going to do now? Block the bus lanes out of Bradford and keep the Muslims off the telly? Do you think the Saudis would allow you that much leeway? Might be awkward if they started cancelling contracts, holding back the barrels...

The water's fine. It's just all the cell phone transmissions. What was it called again? Archangel Network or something like that...

That's only 99% effective...... well 98 ......

I wonder how many people out there have information which could be described as "dangerous" and people who advocate the killing of certain groupls of people. I don't believe they are being all rounded up and arrested. One would think there has to be some kind of imminent threat to take any kind of action. Doesn't seem to be the case here.

I wonder how many people out there have information which could be described as "dangerous" and people who advocate the killing of certain groupls of people. I don't believe they are being all rounded up and arrested. One would think there has to be some kind of imminent threat to take any kind of action. Doesn't seem to be the case here.

Stop bringing logic into English law.

Everything is permissible unless it is illegal. But there is no rhyme or reason why certain things are illegal.

Stop bringing logic into English law.

Everything is permissible unless it is illegal. But there is no rhyme or reason why certain things are illegal.

I suppose logic is something that wouldn't be understood by too many lawyers and politicos, I apologize to the esteemed English lawmakers. :p


I suppose the most *ahem* logical cause of this case is to bring about media attention to another "result" to the war on terror. If you can call locking up a foolish girl to be any kind of blow to Al Quieda. Though I suppose there could be some braindead citizens out there who would see this as progress.... a truly dangerous person now captured by our vigilant guardians of democracy and freedom.

I wonder how many people out there have information which could be described as "dangerous" and people who advocate the killing of certain groupls of people. I don't believe they are being all rounded up and arrested. One would think there has to be some kind of imminent threat to take any kind of action. Doesn't seem to be the case here.It'll probably become increasingly common as national intelligence agencies in the EU randomly samples internet traffic (an idea that looks to become implemented across the EU within the next 2-3 years, in the name of counter terrorism).

Kinda apropos; is it just me, or is counter-terrorism newspeak for domestic terrorism?

It'll probably become increasingly common as national intelligence agencies in the EU randomly samples internet traffic (an idea that looks to become implemented across the EU within the next 2-3 years, in the name of counter terrorism).

Kinda apropos; is it just me, or is counter-terrorism newspeak for domestic terrorism?

Big Brother to the rescue. I suppose I better hide my copy of the Anarchist Cookbook...

Big Brother to the rescue. I suppose I better hide my copy of the Anarchist's Cookbook...Afraid Big Brother will be displeased with the kind of information you access?

Unless you're not living in an EU country, or you're living in Denmark, you don't have to dread reprisals just yet. ISPs do not keep records (and certainly not searchable records) voluntarily. If anything, you should download those types of things now, while you still can without getting flagged for investigation by your national intelligence agency.

Afraid Big Brother will be displeased with the kind of information you access?

Unless you're not living in an EU country, or you're living in Denmark, you don't have to dread reprisals just yet. ISPs do not keep records (and certainly not searchable records) voluntarily. If anything, you should download those types of things now, while you still can without getting flagged for investigation by your national intelligence agency.

I don't suppose keeping my Windows Firewall up will protect me from the nefarious government hackers? :p

I don't suppose keeping my Windows Firewall up will protect me from the nefarious government hackers? :pHacking isn't involved. Your machine accesses the interwebs through your ISP. This means that when you just hit "Submit" to post on NSG, what really happened is that you sent a chunk of text to your ISP and told them to post it on NSG for you.

That kind of information (not the text itself, but the things your ISP had to do to carry our your orders) can be logged and restructured into a format that makes it reasonably accessible to people who'd like to get a picture of your online activities, without wasting years on every last minutiae.

Welcome to the future of information unfreedom.

Hacking isn't involved. Your machine accesses the interwebs through your ISP. This means that when you just hit "Submit" to post on NSG, what really happened is that you sent a chunk of text to your ISP and told them to post it on NSG for you.

That kind of information (not the text itself, but the things your ISP had to do to carry our your orders) can be logged and restructured into a format that makes it reasonably accessible to people who'd like to get a picture of your online activities, without wasting years on every last minutiae.

Welcome to the future of information unfreedom.

Whee...

I suppose if Generalites start mysteriously disappearing then I can conclude governments frown on our little forum then.

Whee...

I suppose if Generalites start mysteriously disappearing then I can conclude governments frown on our little forum then.Nah. They're just taking long breaks :p

I really want to call you a rude name for that remark. Just read the article, huh?

Yeah...Just don't write poetry about me or I'll have to report you to homeland-security ;)