NationStates Jolt Archive

Is it possible, that with the large Spanish speaking minority in our own borders, the US could balkanize? The southwest is now majority hispanic (which in and of itself isn't bad), but with a huge spanish-speaking minority. They sit on the border of another large spanish speaking country, and have deep economic ties with it (border towns like El Paso and Brownsville are more upset by economic downturns in mexico than in the US). Not only that, but it has now been proven that it is possible to lead a "Spanish-only" life in the United States, speaking nothing but Spanish, and interacting with no one but hispanics. Media, government, and corporate outlets give enormous latitude towards spanish speakers. Not only that, but prevailing cultural attitudes in the US of encouraging people to be proud of who they are means that latinos, have little desire to integrate, or at least, less desire than past immigrants. This means that it is possible that two distinct, geographically bound groups could appear within the US in the next 50 or even 20 years: Spanish speakers and English Speakers (or Hispanics and Anglo-Asians). Now, studying history and knowing that multiethnic nations rarely last, is it possible that the US could balkanize and experience large-scale civil strife between spanish and english speakers, especially in the event of an economic downturn? Yes, I know this idea goes against the largely liberal and libertarian beliefs of NSG but I'm very curious to know your opinion. Is this just reactionary sentiment against change, or is this a distinct possibility for the future? And if you have an effective counter arguement, please tell me, I'd be happy to hear it. After all, I don't know yet if I myself really believe this...

Just something interesting I found, Wikipedia categorizes La Raza in the secession category...

What's with all the predictions of the US's future?

That's the third thread today.

Not complaining; are you guys getting jumpy?

I don't think so. Americans as a whole are intensely nationalistic, and for the most part a large portion of the hispanic population in America shares those nationalistic feelings.

We'll do one on Scotland too, I promise:D

I don't think so. Americans as a whole are intensely nationalistic, and for the most part a large portion of the hispanic population in America shares those nationalistic feelings.

I dunno, I've never really met a nationalistic American (and yes, I live in America). Everyone I know is either very critical of the US or ambigious/uncaring.

When the immigrants were all irish, people said they'd never integrate.
When the immigrants were all italian, people said they'd never integrate.
History repeats itself, it seems.

I dunno, I've never really met a nationalistic American (and yes, I live in America). Everyone I know is either very critical of the US or ambigious/uncaring.

Hmm, I guess that living in Montana might bias my judgement...

But, from what I've seen myself, and the data I've seen on hispanics living in America is that right now there is no sentiment for secession. For the most part, all political debate in this country is within the framework of nationalism: what is best for the abstraction of America. People, funnily enough, rarely enter into the equation.

IMO yes, but not for a coupla hundred years yet, and not along the boundaries you suggest.

Well, if a civil war occurs, then all the territories that the US ganked during the 1840s will be returned to Mexico.

Well, if a civil war occurs, then all the territories that the US ganked during the 1840s will be returned to Mexico.

Nah, doubt that... Mexico doesn't really have the resources to put up with the kind of insurgency that is strong enough to bring down the USA...

Will the US Balkanize? The answer is simple!

NO!!

When the immigrants were all irish, people said they'd never integrate.
When the immigrants were all italian, people said they'd never integrate.
History repeats itself, it seems.

Neither Ireland nor Italy border us, nor did they supply quite so many immigrants, and they especially didn't have a border to jump illegally. We'll have to wait and see what difference, if any, that all makes.

Its more likely to become bi-lingual, rather than 'Balkanise'. Which would be a good thing, IMO. Might erode that stick-up-the-ass Anglo-saxon puritanism that seems to linger in certain parts...

Its more likely to become bi-lingual, rather than 'Balkanise'. Which would be a good thing, IMO. Might erode that stick-up-the-ass Anglo-saxon puritanism that seems to linger in certain parts...

maybe... but having a country that speaks two seperate languages and can't communicate effectively with the other half might be bad for us.
something that's really helped the US over the course of history is that everyone speaks the same language.
Canada and Belgium seem to be having problems with a bilingual state.

BTW I'm not advocating anglo-saxon puritanism (whatever the hell that is, we lost it a long time ago) or racism, just wondering if having the population speaking seperate languages is a good idea.

maybe... but having a country that speaks two seperate languages and can't communicate effectively with the other half might be bad for us.
something that's really helped the US over the course of history is that everyone speaks the same language.
Canada and Belgium seem to be having problems with a bilingual state.

BTW I'm not advocating anglo-saxon puritanism (whatever the hell that is, we lost it a long time ago) or racism, just wondering if having the population speaking seperate languages is a good idea.

Let us look at Miami...it is a bilingual city. It is still part of the United States. New York is multi-lingual. It too is working well within the United States.

maybe... but having a country that speaks two seperate languages and can't communicate effectively with the other half might be bad for us.
something that's really helped the US over the course of history is that everyone speaks the same language.
Canada and Belgium seem to be having problems with a bilingual state.

BTW I'm not advocating anglo-saxon puritanism (whatever the hell that is, we lost it a long time ago) or racism, just wondering if having the population speaking seperate languages is a good idea.

Theres a bit more to the Canadian and Belgian thing than just language.

A lot of Europeans can get by in two or more languages, just as a matter of course.

yes, but Miami doesn't seceed because it's too small to. It's surrounding by solely English speaking places and within the city itself, as english as the majority language What I'm saying is what would happen if immigration trends continued and a whole section of the US (namely the southwest) becomes majority spanish speaking? would the two halves of the country view each other as seperate people and would secession, or even a war break out because of that? Take a look at Russia and Chenchia (spelled wrong, I know) today. Or the basques in spain. Or Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia.

Louisiana's bilingual-it didn't secede for cultural reasons but the continuing political marginalization the entire South was suffering. It's more likely that the US will expand to incorporate Mexico than lose the old Mexican territories to a government that can barely handle it's current borders. The balkanizing of the US, if it happens, will occur along political lines, not cultural, as certain demographics are increasingly marginalized by various politicos. Culturally, we're fairly vibrant and willing to incorporate-other than a few "blue-bloods" who regard such incorporation as a "sullying" of a "pure culture". The great strength of the US is it's willingness to adopt new things much more quickly than tradition bound nations. We also abandon them if they're not working more quickly as well, but them's the breaks.

yes, but Miami doesn't seceed because it's too small to. It's surrounding by solely English speaking places and within the city itself, as english as the majority language What I'm saying is what would happen if immigration trends continued and a whole section of the US (namely the southwest) becomes majority spanish speaking? would the two halves of the country view each other as seperate people and would secession, or even a war break out because of that? Take a look at Russia and Chenchia (spelled wrong, I know) today. Or the basques in spain. Or Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia.

Again, theres the whole "identity" thing. Theres been Basques there since before recorded history. Chechens are a seperate people. However people voluntarily go to America. Their idea of what America is or should be may well differ somewhat from those who were off the previous boat, but they still want to be 'American', whatever the hell that might be.

Again, theres the whole "identity" thing. Theres been Basques there since before recorded history. Chechens are a seperate people. However people voluntarily go to America. Their idea of what America is or should be may well differ somewhat from those who were off the previous boat, but they still want to be 'American', whatever the hell that might be.

I agree. Generally, people try to secede when they're ruled by a government they don't like. Moving to America because of, among other things, its government means you are probably in no hurry to leave.

Now, studying history and knowing that multiethnic nations rarely last, is it possible that the US could balkanize and experience large-scale civil strife between spanish and english speakers, especially in the event of an economic downturn?

I'd just like to point out that the US is made up of multiple ethnic groups and it has lasted just fine. Not every single English speaking American came from jolly old England.

I wouldn't worry too much about a bilingual USA. Canada's been bilingual since it was founded in 1867 and with a couple exceptions like the FLQ crisis in the 1970's, has been free of civil violence despite all the talk of separation.

The worst you might get is mandatory Spanish classes as part of the curriculum in public schools. :)

I agree. Generally, people try to secede when they're ruled by a government they don't like. Moving to America because of, among other things, its government means you are probably in no hurry to leave.

Very true. I hadn't considered that.

Is it possible, that with the large Spanish speaking minority in our own borders, the US could balkanize? The southwest is now majority hispanic (which in and of itself isn't bad), but with a huge spanish-speaking minority. They sit on the border of another large spanish speaking country, and have deep economic ties with it (border towns like El Paso and Brownsville are more upset by economic downturns in mexico than in the US). Not only that, but it has now been proven that it is possible to lead a "Spanish-only" life in the United States, speaking nothing but Spanish, and interacting with no one but hispanics. Media, government, and corporate outlets give enormous latitude towards spanish speakers. Not only that, but prevailing cultural attitudes in the US of encouraging people to be proud of who they are means that latinos, have little desire to integrate, or at least, less desire than past immigrants. This means that it is possible that two distinct, geographically bound groups could appear within the US in the next 50 or even 20 years: Spanish speakers and English Speakers (or Hispanics and Anglo-Asians). Now, studying history and knowing that multiethnic nations rarely last, is it possible that the US could balkanize and experience large-scale civil strife between spanish and english speakers, especially in the event of an economic downturn? Yes, I know this idea goes against the largely liberal and libertarian beliefs of NSG but I'm very curious to know your opinion. Is this just reactionary sentiment against change, or is this a distinct possibility for the future? And if you have an effective counter arguement, please tell me, I'd be happy to hear it. After all, I don't know yet if I myself really believe this...

Just something interesting I found, Wikipedia categorizes La Raza in the secession category...

You DO realize that the US has been a multi-ethnic nation it's entire existence....

Don't you? :eek:

You DO realize that the US has been a multi-ethnic nation it's entire existence....

Don't you? :eek:

Suprisingly, I do, me being Italian-Albanian myself. That's not exactly what I'm arguing against.

They are a group of poor people who have come here not out of hatred for their homeland, but out of a lack of opportunity. They come here looking for opportunity and a place where hard work can be rewarded with a better life for them and their children. Intermixed, is the occasional criminal and smuggler.

They are Americans. :D

Everytime I've read a similar subject on this forum, it seems to me that most Americans (forgive me if I am wrong) respond very nationalistically - "if any state dares to declare itself independent, then the Army/Air Force/Navy/all of the above ought to be brought in to blow the bastards back in to line", whilst the United Kingdom seems to be happily devolving itself, to the point that the Scottish National Party is becoming the major player north of the border, and their main aim is independence for Scotland (although I do dislike the fact that the Scottish to get a hell of a lot from us English, to the point that Scottish students don't have to pay tuition fees and get maintainence grants from their government, at the literal expence of us English students, but that is a different story).

Not sure if this really does compare to the USA and the position of its states.

I think we're just looking up a mountain and think Spanish is taking over. But, in reality it's just growing because of the HUGE influx of Spanish speakers. They will soon integrate, even if it takes a few decades.

I think we're just looking up a mountain and think Spanish is taking over. But, in reality it's just growing because of the HUGE influx of Spanish speakers. They will soon integrate, even if it takes a few decades.

supposing, of course, that the influx stops at some point