NationStates Jolt Archive

ROME, November 6, 2007: Italy opposes any military action against Iran over Tehran's contentious nuclear program because such an attack could destabilize the entire Middle East, Premier Romano Prodi said Tuesday.

In a speech delivered to Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah, on a visit to Rome, Prodi said that Italy is against "any military solution," adding that "in addition to not solving the problem, it would open new destabilizing scenarios in the whole region."

Prodi said Iran has every right to develop a peaceful nuclear program, while the international community has an equal right to verify its peaceful nature using "the existing judicial measures."

Sources: Yahoo/IHT/OccNEWS
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/11/06/europe/EU-GEN-Italy-Iran.phpBTW Iran is already complying with all the IAEA existing judicial measures.. what Bush is demanding is a set of extraordinary verification measures.

*runs to fall-out shelter*and stay there. :p

*runs to fall-out shelter*

Now watch as more American planes cut cable car lines in retaliation.

*Ducks, runs*

and stay there. :p

*gets out popcorn and waits for oceandrive2 to die in nuclear holocaust*:D

No one is disputing that they have a right to a nuclear power program. However...we are unsure if they are pursuing nuclear weapons or not. That's the sticking point.

Oh yes, they definately have the right to nuclear power (while not to nuclear weapons). But they obviously aren't enriching uranium for that purpose...

Italy's just giving into appeasement

*gets out popcorn and waits for oceandrive2 to die in nuclear holocaust*:D

But if Ahmedinejad supposedly denies the Holocaust ever happened, what makes you think there's going to be a Nuclear Holocaust?

:D

Now watch as more American planes cut cable car lines in retaliation.

*Ducks, runs*

*this happens* (http://www.weebls-stuff.com/toons/ultimate+showdown/) :D *luls then ducks and runs back to shelter*

But if Ahmedinejad supposedly denies the Holocaust ever happened, what makes you think there's going to be a Nuclear Holocaust?

:D

He will do it then deny it by using his charismatic learnings. :p

He will do it then deny it by using his charismatic learnings. :p

That's more Baghdad Bob's style.

"No, the Americans have not reached the city. They are not routing our troops and are in fact being held back by the glorious Republican Guard!"

That's more Baghdad Bob's style.

"No, the Americans have not reached the city. They are not routing our troops and are in fact being held back by the glorious Republican Guard!"

Battlestar Republicans (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eomGQ0zqx1o) ;) :p

Sadly enough Iran HAS A RIGHT to nuclear weapons of the worst kind. it also has the right to develop bactereological weapons.

There are a series of treaties that Prohibit the development of these weapons. All of them are tied ot the United Nations and they are based on the Hypothesis that the UN and the leading countries of the world, among which the US (and the other members of the securtiy counci, epsecially the permanent ones) do their duty and guarantee international peace.

The US is Morally repugnant. Why? The second war in Iraq (and other reasons but I need to justify my writings with emprical evidence).

The first war was justified by an invasion of the State of Kuwait on the part of Iraq. The second war was totally illegal.

The Us didn't even use tools available to the Un, amongst which the international tribunal (which exists!), and did not respect the will of the security council while at the same time filling the ether and the newscasts with lies and falsehoods (weapons of mass distruction?)

Colin Powell dare not show your face outside your country after the lies you knowingly proferred in front of the world in a civically sacred hall, albeit with evident regret and disgust.

To notice that once the big nations of the world ignore the protection that the charteer of teh UN and its insitutions give to the small nations of the world (thou shalt not use war as an instrument of foreign policy! Concept spceifically outlined in the UN charter apporved by congress and signed into legislation by the US president and thus having full force of law and binding to the actions of The US, its executive and its legislative).

Thus the un (and its founder states) not being able to guarantee the securtiy of the small states has lost the legittimation to impose, from a legal moral and spirtual point of view any form of sanction or censure to a country that seeks to protect its own right to self defense there where big bullies like the US and its allies immorally break all rules both of this world and the next to persue their own personal interest.

Iran has thus a right to weapons of Mass destruction. As anyone else. One KEY treaty broken by A key actor(s) breaks all the otehr minor ones.

I am more in favour of a world government which has control over weapons and armies so as to dispell the threat of war. When will the forces of evil embodied by Uncle Sam renounce the persual of self interest and think about the well being of the planet (kyoto), of the people and of nature instead of perusing national supremacy preeminance among nations and dominion of others through economical (influence of multinationals and sheer economic strenght) political (manipulation of propaganda on an international level and dirty tricks: see Myanmar) abuse ?

Acronosteos

But if Ahmedinejad supposedly denies the Holocaust ever happened, what makes you think there's going to be a Nuclear Holocaust?

:D

Ahmadinejad denies that the Holocaust ever happened because he wants to gain international support for his nuclear program so he can develop missiles, despite claims to the contrary. Nuclear power? As anti-Semitic as Ahmadinejad is (which is another reason he denies the Holocaust), do you really think he has no intention of building missiles to aim at Israel?

Ahmadinejad denies that the Holocaust ever happened because he wants to gain international support for his nuclear program so he can develop missiles, despite claims to the contrary. Nuclear power? As anti-Semitic as Ahmadinejad is (which is another reason he denies the Holocaust), do you really think he has no intention of building missiles to aim at Israel?

Because the real power behind the throne (AKA the Supreme Council) knows better than to get caught in the backwash known as The Samson Option. Wiping Israel off the face of the earth is pretty worthless when you're just as vaped or you're sucking radiation like Springtime at Chernobyl.

Ahmadinejad denies that the Holocaust ever happened because he wants to gain international support for his nuclear program so he can develop missiles, despite claims to the contrary. Nuclear power? As anti-Semitic as Ahmadinejad is (which is another reason he denies the Holocaust), do you really think he has no intention of building missiles to aim at Israel?

seconded.

US: Hey Iran, you're not allowed to have nuclear weapons!

* US builds more nukes *

US: Hey Iran, you're not allowed to have nuclear weapons!

* US builds more nukes *

Hey..its called the NPT. They are not allowed to have a nuclear weapons program. Nuclear Power program yes, weapons program, no.

Hey..its called the NPT. They are not allowed to have a nuclear weapons program. Nuclear Power program yes, weapons program, no.
The NPT is a joke until the US dismantles every single nuclear weapon they have, Iran has the sovereign right to achieve military balance against the US via nuclear weapons.

The NPT is a joke until the US dismantles every single nuclear weapon they have, Iran has the sovereign right to achieve military balance against the US via nuclear weapons.

What about Britain, France, China, and Russia? They have nuclear weapons as well. What about them uh?

What about Britain, France, China, and Russia? They have nuclear weapons as well. What about them uh?

Of course, I only said the US because they are the one's making the fuss over Iran, but sure if you want to be fair about it, all nations can dismantle their nuclear weapons, and then on that basis an NPT agreement would be appropriate. What you have now is essentially the US with a gun to everyones head saying 'disarm' when they already have substantial amounts of nukes anyway. I support nations like Iran who are willing to stand up for their national sovereign and independence against US imperialism.

As anti-Semitic as Ahmadinejad is (which is another reason he denies the Holocaust), do you really think he has no intention of building missiles to aim at Israel?

That's based on the widespread misconception that Ahmadinejad runs Iran. He doesn't. He's only the president. He answers to those above him.

Yes, of course Italy is right. Iran has every right to do what is necessary to defend its country, especially when certain presidential candidates in a certain country are calling for nuking their country. Iran has a right to a nuclear weapon to deter nuclear attacks, just a potential crime victim has a right to a gun to deter attacks on them or their property.

No one is disputing that they have a right to a nuclear power program. However...we are unsure if they are pursuing nuclear weapons or not. That's the sticking point.

Generally, western jurisdiction places the burden of proof on the prosecution's shoulders, not on the defendant's. That's the sticking point.

Btw, since Pakistan, India, Israel, Russia already have a lot of nukes, I'd say that that area can't get any worse even if Iran has a military nuclear program - which I don't believe, it would be too likely to backfire politically on the Iranians themselves.

No one is disputing that they have a right to a nuclear power program. However...we are unsure if they are pursuing nuclear weapons or not. That's the sticking point.

That's what the inspections that Iran IS ALLOWING are for. What will Bush use as an excuse to his desire for blood of children now?

No one is disputing that they have a right to a nuclear power program. However...we are unsure if they are pursuing nuclear weapons or not. That's the sticking point.
There you go again with the fear mongering. Don't you even remember what you said about this situation last week in another thread (IAEA cools down some ego (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=541932))??

Anyways...Elbaredi is at least saying there is no evidence right now and that's a good start in the diplomatic process.

What about Britain, France, China, and Russia? They have nuclear weapons as well. What about them uh?

Don't forget India, Pakistan, North Korea, Israel and I believe Spain.

Ahmadinejad denies that the Holocaust ever happened because he wants to gain international support for his nuclear program so he can develop missiles, despite claims to the contrary. Nuclear power? As anti-Semitic as Ahmadinejad is (which is another reason he denies the Holocaust), do you really think he has no intention of building missiles to aim at Israel?

Well I don't know whether they have nuclear weapons there but I do no there are no gay people. :D:cool:

Italy is the first commercial partner for Iran. Prodi is acting as when the war against Irak was coming and France did not want it, because of its strong economical relations with Irak. Same thing. You also have to think that Prodi belongs to the Left, which in Italy means "I hate America", at least for what concerns electors. And Prodi is weak - he needs all of his government allies to stay with him. If he were pro-war, a quarter of them would leave him, making his government crash.

No one is disputing that they have a right to a nuclear power program. However...we are unsure if they are pursuing nuclear weapons or not. That's the sticking point.

Why is that a sticking point I wonder? We have weapons, you have weapons, does it not seem like bullying to deny others the same?

Don't forget India, Pakistan, North Korea, Israel and I believe Spain.

Spain? I don't think Spain owns nukes... although they might have some US-owned nukes in their airbases to launch from their planes - just like Germany and Italy have.

Anyway, let's us all remember a very simple thing.
To build a nuke (a Little-Boy style uranium device, yield in the range of the tens of kton) one needs science and technology that were cutting edge and top-secret... BACK IN 1945.

Any country who has:
1.an university with a physics department
2.a minimum of mechanics industry (being able to produce laundy machines is enough!)
is teorically able to build a nuclear device. Oh yeah.

Spain? I don't think Spain owns nukes... although they might have some US-owned nukes in their airbases to launch from their planes - just like Germany and Italy have.

Anyway, let's us all remember a very simple thing.
To build a nuke (a Little-Boy style uranium device, yield in the range of the tens of kton) one needs science and technology that were cutting edge and top-secret... BACK IN 1945.

Any country who has:
1.an university with a physics department
2.a minimum of mechanics industry (being able to produce laundy machines is enough!)
is teorically able to build a nuclear device. Oh yeah.

I was taught how to build a nuke in highschool. It's really not complicated, it just requires some precise parts and some exotic material.

Snip.

Why do you equate being against Bush's desire to rape and kill countries and children as being "against America"? Last I checked, your country didn't have as a principle wanking off to the notion of children losing limbs, like Bush does.

I was taught how to build a nuke in highschool. It's really not complicated, it just requires some precise parts and some exotic material.

Yes, the biggest problem is usually refining uranium without starting a chain reaction in the tanks used to keep the UF6 solution (water really increases the bloody cross section of the neutrons).
Anyway, there are new materials, easily available from DuPont...
More instructions on how to build a nuke (if you're intelligent enough to read between the lines) on Nuclear Physics by Krane & Resnick iirc... easily available at any bookstore selling physics texts (I studied on it for the lowest-grade exam of nuclear physics).

Hey..its called the NPT. They are not allowed to have a nuclear weapons program. Nuclear Power program yes, weapons program, no.
The US claims that Iran IS violating the NPT, although it has not been proven to be true.

Yet the US IS actually violating the same NPT by developing mini nikes:

We Keep Building Nukes For All the Wrong Reasons (http://www.cdi.org/blair/new-nukes.cfm)

Yet last week Congress approved further research on nuclear bunker busters, weapons that can penetrate deeply into the ground before exploding, and "mini-nukes," weapons with explosive yields below five kilotons. Although spending on these programs will remain minuscule by Pentagon standards, the stakes are higher than the dollars suggest. America's nuclear future hangs in the balance. The underlying question: If the United States wants to reduce nuclear tensions and arsenals, why is anyone at the Pentagon even thinking about building new nuclear weapons?

Building a Better Bomb (http://www.motherjones.com/news/outfront/2002/05/better_bombs.html)

Let's just call it hypocracy and steal your soapbox???

Generally, western jurisdiction places the burden of proof on the prosecution's shoulders, not on the defendant's. That's the sticking point.

Btw, since Pakistan, India, Israel, Russia already have a lot of nukes, I'd say that that area can't get any worse even if Iran has a military nuclear program - which I don't believe, it would be too likely to backfire politically on the Iranians themselves.

Well judging by the response of the other middle east countries....this could get alot worse.

That's what the inspections that Iran IS ALLOWING are for. What will Bush use as an excuse to his desire for blood of children now?

Nothing because there will not be a war with Iran.

Nothing because there will not be a war with Iran.

That's DESPITE his wishes, not BECAUSE of them.

There you go again with the fear mongering. Don't you even remember what you said about this situation last week in another thread (IAEA cools down some ego (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=541932))??

How is it fearmongering in stating what the sticking points are and what they can and cannot do under the NPT?

As to the IAEA report I'm glad it was published. Thanks though!

Don't forget India, Pakistan, North Korea, Israel and I believe Spain.

I do not think that Spain has them.

As for the other nations, they either did not sign the NPT (India, Pakistan, Israel) or pulled out of it (North Korea)

Why do you equate being against Bush's desire to rape and kill countries and children as being "against America"? Last I checked, your country didn't have as a principle wanking off to the notion of children losing limbs, like Bush does.

It is not a matter of country. It is a matter of education. You should had checked how many card-carrying members of communist party there were in Italy during Cold War. There were almost as in USSR. This is mainly because of the anti-fascism and pro-communism reaction after WWII. Nowadays, most of the Left are against America (not Bush: America) because they still follow old hard war-commie principles. D'Alema studied Marxism, when he was young. But he studied it in Moscow. Young lefty are against anything made by USA, not Bush, because they are guided by people who are historically adverse to USA.

It is not a matter of country. It is a matter of education. You should had checked how many card-carrying members of communist party there were in Italy during Cold War. There were almost as in USSR. This is mainly because of the anti-fascism and pro-communism reaction after WWII. Nowadays, most of the Left are against America (not Bush: America) because they still follow old hard war-commie principles. D'Alema studied Marxism, when he was young. But he studied it in Moscow. Young lefty are against anything made by USA, not Bush, because they are guided by people who are historically adverse to USA.

Even assuming so, it irks me that people see this as:

1- The main or only reason people were against the Iraq useless bloodshed - as opposed to the fact that it was, y'know, an useless bloodshed.

2- The main or only reason people dislike Bush, who is, in fact, raping all of the American principles without lubricant.

3- Hate for its own sake as opposed to due to a full historical process included but not limited to US sponsoring dictatorships when it damn well pleases.

That's what the inspections that Iran IS ALLOWING are for. What will Bush use as an excuse to his desire for blood of children now?

Faked Googlemaps satellite images, recordings of asserted interceptions where a colonel is telling a soldier to "clean up because there will be a UN inspection", drawings of trucks transformed in biological weapons mobile factoryes (my favourite) and a vial of luminescent powder.
Ah, and a scapegoat to present this all to the UN security council.

As the last time...

It is not a matter of country. It is a matter of education. You should had checked how many card-carrying members of communist party there were in Italy during Cold War. There were almost as in USSR. This is mainly because of the anti-fascism and pro-communism reaction after WWII. Nowadays, most of the Left are against America (not Bush: America) because they still follow old hard war-commie principles. D'Alema studied Marxism, when he was young. But he studied it in Moscow. Young lefty are against anything made by USA, not Bush, because they are guided by people who are historically adverse to USA.

Actually there were more members of the Communist Party (in %) in Italy than in USSR.
Anyways this doesn't make the actual foreign polithics of the US right.

You also have to think that Prodi belongs to the Left, which in Italy means "I hate America", at least for what concerns electors.

Actually, no.

Prodi is, and always has been, a Christian Democrat - hence, during Cold War, he was pro-America.
Btw, the PCI (Italian Communist Party) was on bad terms with the KPSS (Soviet Union Communist Party) since about the mid-sixties: the PCI condemned the invasion of Czechoslovakia, had good relationships with Tito, Enrico Berlinguer (secretary in the '70s and one of the initiators of eurocommunism) stated that he felt more safe "under the NATO's umbrella", and still Berlinguer tried to form a centre-left government putting together the Christian Democrats and the Communists (went amiss because of the killing of DC president Aldo Moro in 1978).
Another example: current leader of the centre-left largest party (the newly-born Partito Democratico), Walter Veltroni, was known, when he was in the PCI, as "Walter l'amerikano" (Walter the amerikan) because he worshipped JFK (and not Stalin, Khrushchev, Tito or Mao). Note that he wasn't kicked out of the party for that.

So, really... looks like you're oversimplifying.
You, as many, many other guys try to do, are just trying to equate "not licking Uncle Sam's boots about foreign policies" with "hatin' America!".

What will Bush use as an excuse to his desire for blood of children now?
Divine inspiration.

Faked Googlemaps satellite images, recordings of asserted interceptions where a colonel is telling a soldier to "clean up because there will be a UN inspection", drawings of trucks transformed in biological weapons mobile factoryes (my favourite) and a vial of luminescent powder.
Ah, and a scapegoat to present this all to the UN security council.

As the last time...

Divine inspiration.

I shouldn't have to live in a world where all the good points are terrible ones.

The NPT is a joke until the US dismantles every single nuclear weapon they have, Iran has the sovereign right to achieve military balance against the US via nuclear weapons.

Yeah, and the US has the sovereign right to kick Iran's ass. And Iran has the sovereign right to defend themselves from the ass-kicking.

Actually, no.

Prodi is, and always has been, a Christian Democrat - hence, during Cold War, he was pro-America.
Btw, the PCI (Italian Communist Party) was on bad terms with the KPSS (Soviet Union Communist Party) since about the mid-sixties: the PCI condemned the invasion of Czechoslovakia, had good relationships with Tito, Enrico Berlinguer (secretary in the '70s and one of the initiators of eurocommunism) stated that he felt more safe "under the NATO's umbrella", and still Berlinguer tried to form a centre-left government putting together the Christian Democrats and the Communists (went amiss because of the killing of DC president Aldo Moro in 1978).
Another example: current leader of the centre-left largest party (the newly-born Partito Democratico), Walter Veltroni, was known, when he was in the PCI, as "Walter l'amerikano" (Walter the amerikan) because he worshipped JFK (and not Stalin, Khrushchev, Tito or Mao). Note that he wasn't kicked out of the party for that.

So, really... looks like you're oversimplifying.
You, as many, many other guys try to do, are just trying to equate "not licking Uncle Sam's boots about foreign policies" with "hatin' America!".

Hey, I am not "trying to equate etc."! I am expressing my opinion on why Prodi is against a war in Iran, and why his companions are, too. If Prodi has power, is no more because of DC. He lives on the left, and he has to act as a moderate left-winged politician. If his companions do not want this war, is, in my opinion, because of the reasons I have explained: economical and historical (expecially economical, anyway). Thanks for the info, anyway.:D

Hey, I am not "trying to equate etc."! I am expressing my opinion on why Prodi is against a war in Iran, and why his companions are, too. If Prodi has power, is no more because of DC. He lives on the left, and he has to act as a moderate left-winged politician. If his companions do not want this war, is, in my opinion, because of the reasons I have explained: economical and historical (expecially economical, anyway). Thanks for the info, anyway.:D

As opposed to the war being, again, a WASTEFUL BLOODSHED?

Ahmadinejad denies that the Holocaust ever happened because he wants to gain international support for his nuclear program so he can develop missiles,Houston we have a problem :D

You are no rocket scientist. and that is what you need to develop missiles. NOT a nuclear program
;)

Hey, I am not "trying to equate etc."!
Sorry then...

I am expressing my opinion on why Prodi is against a war in Iran, and why his companions are, too. If Prodi has power, is no more because of DC. He lives on the left, and he has to act as a moderate left-winged politician. If his companions do not want this war, is, in my opinion, because of the reasons I have explained: economical and historical (expecially economical, anyway). Thanks for the info, anyway.:D

Two things:
Vicenza "Del Molin" US AB (Prodi allowed it in spite of leftist protests)
Afghanistan (Italian soldiers still there despite left-wing opposition)

So?

oh and btw, it's "comrades", not "companions"

I am of the firm belief that Iran has as much a right to a nuclear program as any other country... What's absurd is when countries with functional nuclear programs seem to want to dictate who may or may not invest in such programs in other countries.

Two things:
Vicenza "Del Molin" US AB (Prodi allowed it in spite of leftist protests)
Afghanistan (Italian soldiers still there despite left-wing opposition)
oh and btw, it's "comrades", not "companions"

Again, thanks for the info, but I didn't use this term randomly.

As I wrote in other posts, foreign politics often override insider tendences. Soldiers in Afghanistan are not a big problem for the left - war in Afghanistan began with a good will shown both from left and right, because it would had been excessive even for the most extreme left to refuse help to USAin that situation; often left is against wars or invasions not approved by UN, but UN forces joined the occupying forces. And some leftmen protested, but he was promptly silenced, because he was risking the government to fall.
For what concerns yhe air base expansion, I think it is because Italy is part of the Nato, whose head are USA, and it would be very bad if USA got angry with Italy because Italy tries to limit American power in Europe and Mediterranean sea. It would had been a... problem.

Iran also has an interest in destroying Israel. That's a big part of the reason the aylotollahs have power, and they can deliver with nukes. We can wait for them to develop nukes, but if they ever, ever, ever use them to attack Israel, they are opening a can of whoopass.

Iran also has an interest in destroying Israel. That's a big part of the reason the aylotollahs have power, and they can deliver with nukes. We can wait for them to develop nukes, but if they ever, ever, ever use them to attack Israel, they are opening a can of whoopass.Well, Israel could always use the Ark of the Covenant as their supreme weapon...

Well, Israel could always use the Ark of the Covenant as their supreme weapon...

They could always do this (http://facemelt.us/mo_82.jpg) to their enemies (http://facemelt.us/mo_82.jpg).

Yeah, and the US has the sovereign right to kick Iran's ass. And Iran has the sovereign right to defend themselves from the ass-kicking.you forgot Poland. ;)
Yeah, and Hitler had the sovereign right to kick Poland's ass. And Poland had the sovereign right to defend themselves from the ass-kicking.The names of the Countries have been changed to protect the innocent ;-)

you forgot Poland. ;)

Yeah, and Hitler had the sovereign right to kick Poland's ass. And Poland had the sovereign right to defend themselves from the ass-kicking.

Godwin