NationStates Jolt Archive

Or even decriminalised? I talking in general but more specifically in the US. There's a sizable minority that smokes at least semi-regularly yet in all but 12 states they are treated as criminals. It seems it is not in line with a liberal democracy. thoughts?

What I find ironic and kind of stupid is that there are some pot smoker who wants to ban cigarettes because they are dangerous to your health, and yet, they want pot to be legalized....and the last time I checked, pot was also dangerous to your health....

Or even decriminalised? I talking in general but more specifically in the US. There's a sizable minority that smokes at least semi-regularly yet in all but 12 states they are treated as criminals. It seems it is not in line with a liberal democracy. thoughts?

People get freedoms by fighting for them. From what I've heard, stoned people don't feel much like fighting.

What I find ironic and kind of stupid is that there are some pot smoker who wants to ban cigarettes because they are dangerous to your health, and yet, they want pot to be legalized....and the last time I checked, pot was also dangerous to your health....
though generally not as much as tobacco.

The problem is not that pot is all that dangerous. Nor is it that it causes anyone to become listless and dull.

The problem is that, if any lawmaker says anything to the effect of, "Well, I think it's time we legalize marijuana," they're committing political suicide. The War on Drugs is so ingrained into our culture that even suggestign that pot laws are too harsh is playing with political fire. I'd say that it's theoretically possible for someone to get elected to Congress with a platform that includes capital punishment for selling drugs. (Not in any old district - but some.)

However, the same was true 100 years ago if we suggested, "Well, I think it's time we legalized interracial marriage." And it happened. It's all about changing the culture. Some eggs will get broken, sure, but it can be done.

People get freedoms by fighting for them. From what I've heard, stoned people don't feel much like fighting.


And they aren't very good shots.

though generally not as much as tobacco.

*cough* (http://familydoctor.org/online/famdocen/home/common/addictions/drugs/485.html)

Personally I don't care how you kill yourself, however I just wish those wanting marijuana to be legal and cigarettes to be illegal would shut up because they are sounding like hypocrites when they talk and it shouldn't be up to them how other people wishes to kill themselves.

Not while a conservative is in office, no.

In order for it to be legalized, we must also look at the connotations. Marijuana has a powerful anti-establishment connotation with its use. Combine this with the idea of the 'War on Drugs' and you have a pretty volatile mix. When we remove the propaganda and twisted statistics from the picture, you actually find that marijuana use is not as hazardous to your health as portrayed (unless your lifestyle is not conforming to the standard ideal lifestyle according to some people is a health hazard. psh.). Another aspect is racism. I'm not saying this is true or that I support it, but around the time marijuana was criminalized it was considered a drug only used by minorities, specifically mexican immigrants; the upper class drugs were criminalized later (such as cocaine). Add to this the notion that using any illicit drugs automatically makes you a destitute burnout, means that any politician that tries will end up sacked at best and investigated at worst.

Politicians are all jackasses; its the majority vote they want, and they will take any position to get the votes. Thus, we must convince the people and then the politics will flow. This only applies to representative democracy, of course; if we lose that then it doesn't matter.

Action? Is that when you stare at your hands because...I'm good at that! :p

*cough* (http://familydoctor.org/online/famdocen/home/common/addictions/drugs/485.html)

.

all that said was that it had some health effects, not that it was worse than tobacco.

And they aren't very good shots.

I didn't mean actually violence, just protests, etc. People being noisy and chaining themselves to stuff.

What I find ironic and kind of stupid is that there are some pot smoker who wants to ban cigarettes because they are dangerous to your health, and yet, they want pot to be legalized...

names?

*cough* (http://familydoctor.org/online/famdocen/home/common/addictions/drugs/485.html)
*sigh*
Most on that page are exaggerations and lies.

I didn't mean actually violence, just protests, etc. People being noisy and chaining themselves to stuff.

The sit downs would be especially easy for them. Just go to a place like they normally do and start smoking like they normally do.

Just ban ban ban it all.

Or even decriminalised? I talking in general but more specifically in the US. There's a sizable minority that smokes at least semi-regularly yet in all but 12 states they are treated as criminals. It seems it is not in line with a liberal democracy. thoughts?

To make it legal, I guess a heavy modification of the "Opiumwet" (opium law) here. To get it decriminalised: totally nothing.

Yes, that means that technically speaking owning more than 5 grams of marihuana is illegal here in the Netherlands. Trading and producing and such are by that law also illegal. However, we have the so called "gedoogbeleid" which means that the government will not uphold the law.

It's actually a bit of a weird situation, in my opinion we should totally legalise it here and then put a heavy tax on it so that we at least earn some money from tourists. Oh, and to use that money to inform people of the risks of drugs.

It's funny, many foreign students I know think that we smoke regularly and then I explain them that most of us pretty much don't care at all. "Yes, we've tried it, yes it's nice that you can have it, yes, you can just go into a coffeeshop and buy it. No, I don't smoke and No sorry, I don't have anything with me. I got here by plane and I'm not stupid" :p

When there is a President that admits to inhaling, not one moment sooner.:cool:

Or even decriminalised? I talking in general but more specifically in the US. There's a sizable minority that smokes at least semi-regularly yet in all but 12 states they are treated as criminals. It seems it is not in line with a liberal democracy. thoughts?

It will take just one thing... money moving in the right direction.

The "War on Drugs" is good money. All the same palms need to be greased, but with slightly more cash... and then the wheels will turn the other way.

It would take having judges and legislators pass laws to legalize it.


It's your choice to use it or not, you just need to face the penalties and any social stigmas that result.

Either people can attempt to manipulate the system, or they can live their life the way they'd like to be. It just happens that 'the public' may lock you away and cast you out of the general public as a result - but that is because your conviction opposes the alogrythm of legistlation and judicial rendering.

The fact it is illegal hasn't totally stopped it's use, but it has engineered the way in which the drug is produced and used.

I think the drug would be safer as a controlled substance not a prohibited one - but once again marijuana or tobacco or alchohol all have adverse health effects cited against them. I personally think that there are medical issues with abuse of those substances- but likewise I feel that we should all be able to determine what ideal health is for us as individuals - but likewise society should be able to decide what rights and priveleges are attached to that such as medicare or otherwise.

Making law is standard and it takes electing people that will change laws.

*cough* (http://familydoctor.org/online/famdocen/home/common/addictions/drugs/485.html)

Personally I don't care how you kill yourself, however I just wish those wanting marijuana to be legal and cigarettes to be illegal would shut up because they are sounding like hypocrites when they talk and it shouldn't be up to them how other people wishes to kill themselves.

That link is a load of rubbish. I know many people who have smoked marijuana including some real potheads, and those negative effects are either non-existent (you only get addicted to marijuana if you have an addictive personality) or highly exaggerated. Every now and then one person smokes a joint and throws up, and suddenly it's a fact that marijuana is terrible for you.

I do agree with your argument though.

For marijuana to become legal...well, neutral and comprehensive clinical studies would be a good way to start. Including studies of long term use and effects to the physiology, psychology and social life of the (eventually) _human_ subject.

Alas, neutral study in this case seems highly problematic because advocates tend to find only beneficial qualities while the opposition only discovers negative effects.


Personally...As long as it's not smoked in a way that would cause me to be *involuntarily* subject to its side effects, including second hand smoke, smell and other liabilities (for example but not limited to DUI), I don't really care if it is legalized or not.

Note: The latter should IMO apply to tobacco also.

When everyone currently over the age of 55 is dead, then there is a chance that marijuana will be decriminalized/legalized.

Personally I don't care how you kill yourself, however I just wish those wanting marijuana to be legal and cigarettes to be illegal would shut up because they are sounding like hypocrites when they talk and it shouldn't be up to them how other people wishes to kill themselves.

My slight problem with alcohol, cigarettes, illegal drugs, etcetera, is that certain d***s tend to decide to share the killing around.

essentially, appearently, a 'seachange' in the dominant culture.

probably after america falls, if and when that every happens, or atleast falls back in influence to where it's no longer strong arm bullying the rest of the planet, depending on what ELSE comes along or doesn't when THAT happens, then maybe, even probably it will become legal nearly everywhere. and it least semi-legal in what is now the u.s. will have become.

i'm not suggesting anything has to happen to america before it can. only that while anything can happen, america's policies on so many things has been rather intractably backward headed for rather a long time.

partially this is the politics of dominant economic interests and partially the dominant culture and how these two keep reinforcing and perpetuating each other. even in the face of when they are blatently contrary to common sense. as we've seen all to graphicly demonstrated this current decade.

i think it will happen. i think like many things it will happen in its own time.
a time i would like to see, not because i give a dam about the herb, but rahter that i do about a lot of other things, and about what this lack of freedom of what one does to ones own self indicates about the kind of world we're living in. a time i'm not betting my life savers i would will live to see, seeing as how i'm damd near 60. will be in less then another six months.

i don't know if anything anyone does or doesn't is going to do anything about that. it will just happen when it does. no sooner or later, no mater what anyone does or doesn't. that's just my guess anyway.

i do think it was a MAJOR error/omission in the u.s. constitution, that laws can be inacted banning the mere POSSESSION of ANYTHING!

you know, banning sale for valuable consideration, mass production, or wholesale importation of what ever enough people see fit to is fine, but banning the mere possetion of ANYTHING only creates opportunity for politically motivate harrassment and fraiming people by planting stuff on them. it damd sure doesn't take anything out of circulation. it just creates over priced 'black markets'.

and that's not in ANYONE's intrest, other then maybe that of organized crime.
but then, of course, organized crime with a legal corporate vineer,
is what has usurped america's political proccess anyway.

=^^=
.../\...

A few rounds of free congressional (and other required bodies) samples.

A few rounds of free congressional (and other required bodies) samples.

lovely thought. only what makes you think the're not getting pretty much whatever they want now, along with egar young highscool sex slaves of both genders, and who knows what all else. especially those of the most self-ritious posture?

=^^=
.../\...

It's legal in Belgium as well.

And I don't care.

I like to be lucid.

Jesus Christ!! All you have to do to get it legal in the US is to vote Ron Paul 2008. He'll put an immediate end to the fedederal war on drugs. And the reason why the drug-laws are soo fucked up in europe is because of all the levels of government in europe. So visit ronpaul2008.com and check him out.

Jesus Christ!! All you have to do to get it legal in the US is to vote Ron Paul 2008. He'll put an immediate end to the fedederal war on drugs. And the reason why the drug-laws are soo fucked up in europe is because of all the levels of government in europe. So visit ronpaul2008.com and check him out.

Is he paying you?

It will be legalised when the stoners get their shit together and do something about it.

*cough* (http://familydoctor.org/online/famdocen/home/common/addictions/drugs/485.html)

Personally I don't care how you kill yourself, however I just wish those wanting marijuana to be legal and cigarettes to be illegal would shut up because they are sounding like hypocrites when they talk and it shouldn't be up to them how other people wishes to kill themselves.

Will...

I gotta tell ya, that "study" you have there has been just about debunked by every actual study ever done.
I suggest you look up some recent articles on it by the WHO, or AMJ.

In fact, some researches say theres evidence to suggest that usage nmay actually prevent certain kinds of cancer among its smokers.
I'm not entirely sold on that particular point, but as for its so-called "addictive qualities" ... thats complete horseshit.

Jesus Christ!! All you have to do to get it legal in the US is to vote Ron Paul 2008. He'll put an immediate end to the fedederal war on drugs. And the reason why the drug-laws are soo fucked up in europe is because of all the levels of government in europe. So visit ronpaul2008.com and check him out.

Yay! I wondered when Ron was going to start playing again! Welcome back, Mr Paul. :)

Before it was legal, I used it from time to time.

Since it's legal, I used it one more time.

And lot of my friends did the same.

Seems that forbidden fruits taste better...

I don't see who the victim is if I choose to consume nature's gift. If weed will continue to be outlawed then so should every singe little intoxicant should be too. Alcohol, tobacco, etc. Legalization would also get rid of the massive black market that funds crime and other devious activities. I don't see why lawmakers haven't thought of this. Also, with all the money spent on the war on drugs, it would be cheaper for the gov't to just supply all the addicts with their drugs than to fight an all out war on them.

Just ban ban ban it all.

And your basis for this is... nothing. You've provided no actual concrete reasoning to ban it. All you've done here is stomp your foot and throw a childish temper tantrum without substantiating your logic, which is very lacking here.

So, what are you going to say? Ah yes, you're going to use the predictable tripe about how it makes people do stuff beyond their control, ie: reefer madness. Then you'll probably add in myth instead of fact, as is the propensity for the ilk who are anti-marijuana.

Your retort will contain the following:
- something about a "bad trip"
- something about one person having a messed up life

The two above are mere anecdotal evidence; conjecture.

You will then add in twisted government statistics, from the same government that in 1974 proved that marijuana could reduced certain types of cancerous tumors, namely enhanced the ability to fight breast cancer.

You will then go on to claim about how highly addictive marijuana is, ignoring the fact that there is very little chance of the subject in question becoming addictive, as it is not proven to be a physically addictive drug, though in rare cases it is a psychological crutch.

What else? Oh right, some twisted statement about all the people who smoke Marijuana becoming head cases due to the fact that marijuana supposedly causes schizophrenia. Though the rate is died to genetics and the pre-disposition of the subject in question to mental psychosis. The rate of possible mental cases arising from it is similar to that of people who are left-handed, as left-handedness is proven to be linked to mental psychosis.

You will also attempt to drawn similarities between marijuana and other drugs, which will be apparent because marijuana doesn't act like other drugs, namely hard drugs. It is cousin drugs, like catnip and Salvia Divinorium, which are known to cause similar affects in users. I doubt you would know this as you appear to be anti-drug so your facts would be lacking.

The last ditch attempt of the anti-marijuana advocate is to try and make marijuana sound worse than alcohol and/or tobacco, while putting it on par with crack, heroin and crystal methamphetamine. You will not be able to cite attributed deaths because there are few if any, yet far more attributed to alcohol and tobacco per annum.

But, you can't say anything because anything you try to use against the case for marijuana will simply be disproven in this forum because you will fail to sight precident. You will use myth instead of fact to make your case.

So, can you give a truly valid reason, using sources that can be verified against others as to why marijuana shouldn't be legalised despite its inherent medicinal qualities and its general qualities for inducing a relaxed state?

Keep in mind that we are aware of the multitude of affects attributed to this drug and many of us are aware that it isn't perfect and that no one person may experience the same as another and that each trip may be different. Though it is possible for people to share the same experience.

And here, a little philosophical link focusing on the "what if drugs were legal" argument. Clicky (http://www.populistamerica.com/what_if_all_drugs_were_legal) - this presents a very good argument as to why we should make drugs legal.

I think it ought to be decriminalized, but not for the reason most do. As a Mormon, I abstain from even cigarettes and alcohol, so pot isn't even on my radar. Nevertheless, I think criminalization of something like that does more harm than good.

Here's why. (This story won't seem to be relevant to the topic at first, so please bear with me.)

A while back, when I was in jail for a few weeks, I met a few guys who were in there for various charges related to drug use. One in particular was a guy who had become addicted to meth. That was, I believe, his second time being locked up for it. I got to know him and he's a decent guy who just made a dumb mistake by trying meth and now he's got an addiction.

Most people are willing to pay lip service to the idea that addiction is a disease but very few are willing to actually treat it like one. Here's a guy who had a girlfriend and a daughter whom he loves, and was kept in jail because of a disease. How is this justice? Not only will he now have a criminal record which will make it more difficult to find a job (which, when you're on probation, you HAVE to have a job. Thanks for the catch 22 there.) but he's also in a position to be unable to get decent treatment because in a lot of places having a criminal record makes you inelligible for state services like the very ones that could pay for treatment until he can get a job with insurance to afford it himself.

To add insult to injury, some places have feel good laws like "3 strikes you're out" where a person who is having trouble kicking the addiction because of the factors above can graduate from misdemeanor to felon and then do prison time.

All because of a disease.

Now, you may be wondering, just what the heck does that story have to do with marijuana? My answer is that the entire way in which we look at drugs needs to be examined. Is marijuana addictive like meth? No. Is it always a gateway to meth? No. But the fact is we've been trained to see pot lumped in with meth, coke, etc and to see those who use them as criminals on the same level as buglars and murderers. Both of my parents used to get stoned back in the day. So what? Does that make them bad people in any way?

I don't support the use of pot but prosecuting those who do use it does not seem to me like justice. It goes back to something I said recently on another thread. If someone grows pot in their yard and smokes it, where is the victim of the crime? How can you have justice if no harm has been done to anyone? And what we really need is to shift our focus away from punishing people and start looking at ways in which we can really make a positive trend.