NationStates Jolt Archive

As in old age it seems many of this elder generation have burned through their retirement funds, spending it on luxury goods and vacations, leaving their children to pay for their living expenses and THEN their health, possible nursing home and assisted living expenses. What do you think of this?


My view is I think this is just a symptom of consumerist culture that I keep referring to, another piece of evidence along with the increasing consumer debt.

And of course the ever-greedy ever-more xpensive health care and pharmaceutical industries don't help.

I guess it is good living in this prosperous country, but how good is it for the majority of us when most of the wealth is in the hands (and sometimes goes to) less than 10% of the population, most are working 60 hours a week to keep up their lifestyle even the upper middle class, our money goes to taxes and worst income taxes, raising insurance costs, increasing interest for loans, transportation (gas) costs, healthcare care costs, leaving little money to at least enjoy ourselves in our supposedly prosperous country?

move to the UK. you pay taxes when you're working so that you can get free NHS healthcare when you're an old (and, presumably, ill) fogey.

besides, my parents raised me. its only fair i take care of them when they need it. i'd have no problem doing this, but maybe i'm slightly missing your point

'Tis what Social Security and Medicare are for.

'Tis what Social Security and Medicare are for.

I could start ranting here, but I'll just say they don't measure up to what they promise.

As in old age it seems many of this elder generation have burned through their retirement funds, spending it on luxury goods and vacations, leaving their children to pay for their living expenses and THEN their health, possible nursing home and assisted living expenses. What do you think of this?


My view is I think this is just a symptom of consumerist culture that I keep referring to, another piece of evidence along with the increasing consumer debt.

And of course the ever-greedy ever-more xpensive health care and pharmaceutical industries don't help.

I guess it is good living in this prosperous country, but how good is it for the majority of us when most of the wealth is in the hands (and sometimes goes to) less than 10% of the population, most are working 60 hours a week to keep up their lifestyle even the upper middle class, our money goes to taxes and worst income taxes, raising insurance costs, increasing interest for loans, transportation (gas) costs, healthcare care costs, leaving little money to at least enjoy ourselves in our supposedly prosperous country?
I don't see the problem... I mean parents will typically pay for 20-25 years of expenses for each of their 2+ children. Why don't we expect that to be repaid on the other end of life? In fact, isn't a relatively new development that children DON'T take care of their parents in their old age?

What was the proverb I saw in the 'Having Children' thread? A mother can pay for the expenses of five children, but five children can't pay for the expenses of one mother? Something like that.

There's an argument that can be made that the mother chose to bring the children to the world, whereas the child made no choice on the mother being there...

In fact, isn't a relatively new development that children DON'T take care of their parents in their old age?

Yep, it is. Merely 2 generations ago, it was EXPECTED for kids to take care of their aged parents when the time came...

There's an argument that can be made that the mother chose to bring the children to the world, whereas the child made no choice on the mother being there...

Which has zero point regarding familial responsibility between parents and offspring... The same types who bicker and complain about caring for parents, are the first ones circling like vultures as soon as there is an estate to be divvied.... If I have a kid like that, they're being cut from the will.

Which has zero point regarding familial responsibility between parents and offspring... The same types who bicker and complain about caring for parents, are the first ones circling like vultures as soon as there is an estate to be divvied.... If I have a kid like that, they're being cut from the will.

I said the argument could be made, I didn't claim to support it.

As for cutting a kid from the will, I don't know how it works everywhere else, but here in Brazil the parent has to leave at least half their estate to be divided among descendants. They can choose to do as they wish with the rest.

Then again, here in Brazil, the laws also force the children to take some sort of care of their parents (not necessarily live with or visit them, mind you) if they can't fend for themselves.

Which has zero point regarding familial responsibility between parents and offspring... The same types who bicker and complain about caring for parents, are the first ones circling like vultures as soon as there is an estate to be divvied.... If I have a kid like that, they're being cut from the will.

really? seriously?

I am in the position at the ripe old age of 25 of having to support my mother, not that I haven't been supporting her for I don't know how long anyway, but right now I am trying to provide for my family, my kids, take care of my husband, and I have to pay for her. She didn't save any money, she put herself into major debt, has no assets and needs care to the tune of $5,000 a month, she gets less than 25% of that paid for by Medicare and Social Security. I whine, I bitch, I moan, I don't want to do it. I would rather my children and my husband have things they need like medicine, and health care, and a house that's not falling apart, and a mom who doesn't work 80 hours a week. My children are suffering, I am suffering because she is and was an irresponsible person. I don't want her estate. I want to have my own. I would rather us sell all her crap, but to even mention that is "disrespectful". :rolleyes:


I wish she would disown me. How do I get her to do that?

I said the argument could be made, I didn't claim to support it.

As for cutting a kid from the will, I don't know how it works everywhere else, but here in Brazil the parent has to leave at least half their estate to be divided among descendants. They can choose to do as they wish with the rest.

Then again, here in Brazil, the laws also force the children to take some sort of care of their parents (not necessarily live with or visit them, mind you) if they can't fend for themselves.

Well, I'm not merely limiting "care" to merely financial support of the parent(s)... But other types of "support" as well; such as assistance with aged parents household upkeep, doing shopping for them when they need it, and are no longer able to get out on their own. Even taking the parents in when they need extra care (but not maybe fulltime care) due to their age...

This maybe merely the USA; but here it is quite common for kids to feel they have absolutely no responsibility to their parents as they get older and harder to take care of themselves... This idea scares my wife and I; as we've waited till later in life to have kids; and we're going to be "old fogies" by the time they are 30.

Source?

I would rather us sell all her crap, but to even mention that is "disrespectful". :rolleyes:


I wish she would disown me. How do I get her to do that?

You just answered your own question.

Well, I'm not merely limiting "care" to merely financial support of the parent(s)... But other types of "support" as well; such as assistance with aged parents household upkeep, doing shopping for them when they need it, and are no longer able to get out on their own. Even taking the parents in when they need extra care (but not maybe fulltime care) due to their age...

This maybe merely the USA; but here it is quite common for kids to feel they have absolutely no responsibility to their parents as they get older and harder to take care of themselves... This idea scares my wife and I; as we've waited till later in life to have kids; and we're going to be "old fogies" by the time they are 30.

Maybe, but I'm assuming here you were more responsible than Smunkee's mother in her example. Also, what if the parent in question did everything to alienate or infuriate the child throughout their lives? Should a parent that abandoned their son be able to come back when the son is 40 and demand care? When does family responsibility stop and personal responsibility and one's right to choose their own destiny begin?

You know, if that 1/5 number is correct then all those people cynically banking on their kids as "Investments" are gonna be screwed!.

I don't see the problem... I mean parents will typically pay for 20-25 years of expenses for each of their 2+ children. Why don't we expect that to be repaid on the other end of life? In fact, isn't a relatively new development that children DON'T take care of their parents in their old age?

What was the proverb I saw in the 'Having Children' thread? A mother can pay for the expenses of five children, but five children can't pay for the expenses of one mother? Something like that.

A mother can feed and clothe 12 children, but 12 children can't feed and clothe a mother.

really? seriously?

I am in the position at the ripe old age of 25 of having to support my mother, not that I haven't been supporting her for I don't know how long anyway, but right now I am trying to provide for my family, my kids, take care of my husband, and I have to pay for her. She didn't save any money, she put herself into major debt, has no assets and needs care to the tune of $5,000 a month, she gets less than 25% of that paid for by Medicare and Social Security. I whine, I bitch, I moan, I don't want to do it. I would rather my children and my husband have things they need like medicine, and health care, and a house that's not falling apart, and a mom who doesn't work 80 hours a week. My children are suffering, I am suffering because she is and was an irresponsible person. I don't want her estate. I want to have my own. I would rather us sell all her crap, but to even mention that is "disrespectful". :rolleyes:


I wish she would disown me. How do I get her to do that?

I'm sure you realize that you're the exception. My thought was that at the age of 50 or 60, a child should be able to provide for a parent without too much hardship.

Yep, it is. Merely 2 generations ago, it was EXPECTED for kids to take care of their aged parents when the time came...

the problem starts to come in when we realize that the cost of being old has increased dramatically (in the united states, at least), as have the number of old people out there and how long they live as old people. this doesn't relieve the obligation, but it does explain some of the reluctance.

Maybe, but I'm assuming here you were more responsible than Smunkee's mother in her example. Also, what if the parent in question did everything to alienate or infuriate the child throughout their lives? Should a parent that abandoned their son be able to come back when the son is 40 and demand care? When does family responsibility stop and personal responsibility and one's right to choose their own destiny begin?

That is obviously a different scenario... I can sympathize with someone who had abusive (physically or emotionally) parents distancing themselves from them once they're out on their own... But the most typical scenario I've witnessed is where people were raised in descent households; and now that the parents are falling out of the capability to care for themselves; have an attitude that such is too much of an inconvenience on their present life, and gripe about it...

Someone who have seperated from their family due to abuse, and refuse to care for said family once adult; is a far distance from someone who was given everything by their parents, and now refuse to inconvenience themselves because the same parents need assistance.

Yep, it is. Merely 2 generations ago, it was EXPECTED for kids to take care of their aged parents when the time came...
Yeah, but it was also expected that the parents would have a fuckton of kids, not just one or two. Parents also had the common courtesy to check out by the age of 80, and now everyone's going for the record books, whatever it may cost them in medical bills and self-respect.

If my parents ran out of money because of illness I'd try to help them get back on their feet, but if they started gambling or something I'd leave them on their own. Just because they're old it doesn't mean they are allowed to be stupid.

Yeah, but it was also expected that the parents would have a fuckton of kids, not just one or two. Parents also had the common courtesy to check out by the age of 80, and now everyone's going for the record books, whatever it may cost them in medical bills and self-respect.Also, children back then where expected to work for free instead of playing video games, so they weren't a money drain, they actually helped out a poor family. And grandparents back then where expected to help raise children, not just sit there and watch tv.

Parents also had the common courtesy to check out by the age of 80, and now everyone's going for the record books, whatever it may cost them in medical bills and self-respect.

to put numbers on this, in 1950 if you made it to 65 you could expect to live about 14 more years. now it's closer to 20, and those additional couple years have been gained mainly through costly medical intervention.

I'm sure you realize that you're the exception. My thought was that at the age of 50 or 60, a child should be able to provide for a parent without too much hardship.

Smunkee is an exception to your "thought" on the matter? OK, let us know when your thoughts become relevant.

Smunkee gaves us the facts of her personal experience. If you feel like arguing that the national statistics are different and show her experience to be an exception, you should provide links to such statistics.

I wish she would disown me. How do I get her to do that?

Unless you're for some reason legally bound to support her you could always throw her out of the house/apartment/residence. Get the cops to do it if need be.

It does sound cruel, but you, your husband, and most important of all your kids are suffering cuz of her. Don't let drain your family dry.

Smunkee is an exception to your "thought" on the matter? OK, let us know when your thoughts become relevant.

Smunkee gaves us the facts of her personal experience. If you feel like arguing that the national statistics are different and show her experience to be an exception, you should provide links to such statistics.
The stat you should be asking for is the one in the first post... Why should anyone believe that the figure is 10%?

Damn my math is bad today, how about 20%? Why should we believe that?

my biological father is homeless as of today. He got himself in his fucked up position he can get himself out of it. Apparently the old blind fucker was cut off by the state on his unemployment because blind services was unable to find him a job. The VA wont pay his medical bills and social security isn't giving him any money either.

Luckily my parents planned for their retirement, and I will plan for mine so I won't become a burden on anyone when I get old and retired.

my biological father is homeless as of today. He got himself in his fucked up position he can get himself out of it. Apparently the old blind fucker was cut off by the state on his unemployment because blind services was unable to find him a job. The VA wont pay his medical bills and social security isn't giving him any money either.

How did he get himself into that position if you don't mind me asking?

Smunkee is an exception to your "thought" on the matter? OK, let us know when your thoughts become relevant.

Smunkee gaves us the facts of her personal experience. If you feel like arguing that the national statistics are different and show her experience to be an exception, you should provide links to such statistics.

No one has sourced anything in this entire thread.

How did he get himself into that position if you don't mind me asking?


Well he left my mother and her other kids when I wasn't even 1 year old yet. Took most of our valuables including my moms wedding ring and pawned them to go to Vegas and gamble it all away. He's a drunk too. Apparently he's made very few responsible decisions during his life. Starting around 2 years ago he started going blind and so he's unable to get and keep a job anymore. Unemployment ran out for him. He isn't getting social security or disability. and for some reason the VA wont take care of his medical stuff even though he served in the Navy.

really? seriously?

I am in the position at the ripe old age of 25 of having to support my mother, not that I haven't been supporting her for I don't know how long anyway, but right now I am trying to provide for my family, my kids, take care of my husband, and I have to pay for her. She didn't save any money, she put herself into major debt, has no assets and needs care to the tune of $5,000 a month, she gets less than 25% of that paid for by Medicare and Social Security. I whine, I bitch, I moan, I don't want to do it. I would rather my children and my husband have things they need like medicine, and health care, and a house that's not falling apart, and a mom who doesn't work 80 hours a week. My children are suffering, I am suffering because she is and was an irresponsible person. I don't want her estate. I want to have my own. I would rather us sell all her crap, but to even mention that is "disrespectful". :rolleyes:


I wish she would disown me. How do I get her to do that?

That is the situation that falls under the situations I were trying to discuss, when they get into debt intentionally, etc.

There are older persons who get themselves into debt spending irresponsibly.

That is the situation that falls under the situations I were trying to discuss, when they get into debt intentionally, etc.

There are older persons who get themselves into debt spending irresponsibly.

And here's where I've got to ask about significance. Are there really 20% of households in Smunk's position? That's hard to swallow...That would be 1 of 5 households in my town and I know that isn't so. Where do you get your claim from?

As in old age it seems many of this elder generation have burned through their retirement funds, spending it on luxury goods and vacations, leaving their children to pay for their living expenses and THEN their health, possible nursing home and assisted living expenses. What do you think of this?


My view is I think this is just a symptom of consumerist culture that I keep referring to, another piece of evidence along with the increasing consumer debt.

And of course the ever-greedy ever-more xpensive health care and pharmaceutical industries don't help.

I guess it is good living in this prosperous country, but how good is it for the majority of us when most of the wealth is in the hands (and sometimes goes to) less than 10% of the population, most are working 60 hours a week to keep up their lifestyle even the upper middle class, our money goes to taxes and worst income taxes, raising insurance costs, increasing interest for loans, transportation (gas) costs, healthcare care costs, leaving little money to at least enjoy ourselves in our supposedly prosperous country?

Funny, my grandmother burned through her life savings in about two years with her assisted living expenses -- no luxury vacations, no luxury goods (unless you count rent and a twenty year old tv). And then when it was all gone, the government paid part, and her five children paid part, because we didn't think that you toss a grandparent aside like a bag of smelly fishbones because suddenly, their care is inconvenient.

If we apply the thinking in reverse, we'd have a scene out of Oliver Twist with roving bands of kids begging and stealing in the streets -- who wants to pay for THEIR upkeep for the next 18 years when there is no guarantee you'll get anything back on the investment?

It sucks, it's tough, it's family. Do what you need to; I know what we needed to do.

I could start ranting here, but I'll just say they don't measure up to what they promise.

They took over, pretty much, my grandmother's care expenses once all of her money was gone. Does this mean we had no expenses? Uh, no. But it defrayed the costs a lot.

And we all visited, rotating so that one of us stopped in to see her each day of the week, to make sure she was not being neglected or mistreated.

You, too, can do this, if you make the time.

It sucks, it's tough, it's family. Do what you need to; I know what we needed to do.

"Blood is thicker than water" - Saying.

"Blood is thicker than water but less thick than molybdenum" - Me.

What exactly does family mean? You have obligations to the people you choose to have them to.

And here's where I've got to ask about significance. Are there really 20% of households in Smunk's position? That's hard to swallow...That would be 1 of 5 households in my town and I know that isn't so. Where do you get your claim from?

Probably more of them are.

Credit card debt carried by the average American: $8,562.
http://ask.yahoo.com/20040209.html

Most Americans are in debt, most don't save anything out of their pay checks, in fact most of them have a negative savings rate.

The number-crunching folks at the U.S. Commerce Department's Bureau of Economic Analysis dished out some discouraging news recently, saying that Americans spent more than they earned in 2005 -- a negative savings rate of 0.5 percent for the year. That's the first time that's happened since the Great Depression.

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/sav/20060308a1.asp

It is not hard at all for me to believe that more than 20% of Americans are having to pay for their parents debts, health care, living expenses and more. Once your money is gone it's gone, and Social Security just won't give you much money. If you don't save enough during your life you won't survive retirement. Add to that most of "the kids" aren't saving, are overspending, have credit card debt.......and are expecting their kids and SS to take care of them when they get old.

Most of these kids now don't have any sense of what you should do with money, most of them are born and bred consumerists with no idea what real life is like, and it's their parents fault. You can see the example playing out today with the mortgage thing.

I don't even have to put on my financial planner hat to explain this to you.

I don’t even have to put on my financial planner hat to explain this to you.
That would be the dullest hat imaginable.

That would be the dullest hat imaginable.

it is, sadly. It's an affordable hat that gains value at a steady pace though.

That would be the dullest hat imaginable.

And yet, a critical one.

It’s an affordable hat that gains value at a steady pace though.
Zing!

Probably more of them are.

Credit card debt carried by the average American: $8,562.
http://ask.yahoo.com/20040209.html

Most Americans are in debt, most don't save anything out of their pay checks, in fact most of them have a negative savings rate.

The number-crunching folks at the U.S. Commerce Department's Bureau of Economic Analysis dished out some discouraging news recently, saying that Americans spent more than they earned in 2005 -- a negative savings rate of 0.5 percent for the year. That's the first time that's happened since the Great Depression.

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/sav/20060308a1.asp

It is not hard at all for me to believe that more than 20% of Americans are having to pay for their parents debts, health care, living expenses and more. Once your money is gone it's gone, and Social Security just won't give you much money. If you don't save enough during your life you won't survive retirement. Add to that most of "the kids" aren't saving, are overspending, have credit card debt.......and are expecting their kids and SS to take care of them when they get old.

Most of these kids now don't have any sense of what you should do with money, most of them are born and bred consumerists with no idea what real life is like, and it's their parents fault. You can see the example playing out today with the mortgage thing.

I don't even have to put on my financial planner hat to explain this to you.

Yet, when I try to decipher what the Census has to say, it looks like household headed by 20-30 year olds, don't have a very high average age... Making me think that it is the 50-60 year olds that are taking in their parents. Still, 20%? When I lived in town, that would be two out of every ten houses, five neighbors either side... But the real numbers were more like 0/20.

I don't doubt that a lot of kids (20-30 years) are irresponsible. But that doesn't mean that 20% of parents require their care. In fact, that doesn't even make sense -- if they're irresponsible with money, how can they take care of their parents at that rate?

Yet, when I try to decipher what the Census has to say, it looks like household headed by 20-30 year olds, don't have a very high average age... Making me think that it is the 50-60 year olds that are taking in their parents. Still, 20%? When I lived in town, that would be two out of every ten houses, five neighbors either side... But the real numbers were more like 0/20.

I don't doubt that a lot of kids (20-30 years) are irresponsible. But that doesn't mean that 20% of parents require their care. In fact, that doesn't even make sense -- if they're irresponsible with money, how can they take care of their parents at that rate?

most of them do it by going further into debt and thus when they get old their kids have to take care of them.

Not everyone makes bright financial choices. If I were like most people I wouldn't have chosen to live without a car for the last month, I don't have the cash on hand to fix it, so it's sitting in my drive way collecting dust. If I were like most people I would have either traded it in on a car I couldn't afford or charged the repairs to a credit card. I am not like most people though, so my car is broke and I don't know when it's going to get fixed.

The stat you should be asking for is the one in the first post... Why should anyone believe that the figure is 10%?

Damn my math is bad today, how about 20%? Why should we believe that?
Fine. Let both you and the OP present your figures.

No one has sourced anything in this entire thread.
I know (EDIT: except for Smunkee, of course). Slightly annoying, that. I don't mind if people just want to float their opinions, but if they are going to claim any kind of factual basis for those opinions, they should go find the data to show us.

Yet, when I try to decipher what the Census has to say, it looks like household headed by 20-30 year olds, don't have a very high average age... Making me think that it is the 50-60 year olds that are taking in their parents. Still, 20%? When I lived in town, that would be two out of every ten houses, five neighbors either side... But the real numbers were more like 0/20.

I don't doubt that a lot of kids (20-30 years) are irresponsible. But that doesn't mean that 20% of parents require their care. In fact, that doesn't even make sense -- if they're irresponsible with money, how can they take care of their parents at that rate?

So, the fact that you don't understand the numbers leads you to believe they don't say what people who do understand them say they say. I see. You prefer your opinions and personal beliefs to facts, and have no interest in comparing the two, whether by relying on others or by your own efforts. OK. That would explain why you have not provided any facts to show how you came to your beliefs about the "real numbers."

However, Smunkee has shown us some facts, and my reading of what she posted leads me to believe that her assessment of the general situation is closer to reality than yours.

However, Smunkee has shown us some facts, and my reading of what she posted leads me to believe that her assessment of the general situation is closer to reality than yours.
Pal, I'm not quite sure what your problem is...but one anecdote about live-in parents doesn't establish significance...Plus, there's always the internet factor -- everything presented is likely to be false, unless proven otherwise.

I don't see the problem... I mean parents will typically pay for 20-25 years of expenses for each of their 2+ children. Why don't we expect that to be repaid on the other end of life? In fact, isn't a relatively new development that children DON'T take care of their parents in their old age?No. The system is not supposed to work that way. People are supposed to pay for their kids and the kids are supposed for their own kids. One generation funds the next.

No. The system is not supposed to work that way. People are supposed to pay for their kids and the kids are supposed for their own kids. One generation funds the next.

And that is what this article I was reading was saying, that some of these people who are having to take care of their parents cannot afford to send their kids to the college they want to go to or are having a hard time doing so, going in more debt. (In Details, a men's national fashion magazine but still with thought provoking authors and good journalism).