NationStates Jolt Archive

Inspired by another thread (which shall remain unnamed as I'm just a little ashamed I read something that stupid almost all the way through), I'd like to ask you lot what overall goals you think basic education should have. And by basic education, I mean the first 10-15 years worth (length varies around the globe).

To avoid making this an entirely Hit & Run thread, here's the short version of my opinion:
1. Convey appropriate skills needed for further specialization.
2. Basic "citizen's education"

The former, because even those of us who didn't initially go on to study other crap, had to specialize further to get a job. And that can be a surprisingly difficult thing to do, if you've only been taught skills relevant for academia.
The latter, because while people's ability to feed themselves is more important than their ability to participate meaningfully in the society they're part of, most people aren't nice enough to refrain from butting in, despite their own ignorance.

Feel free to post lengthy rants, prioritize, use smileys or whatever else catches your fancy. I'll be lurking for at least a few hours, though I probably won't post much since I'm studying, and unfortunately too old to have school as my day job.

I totally agree with you. Basic education should focus on being able to take care of yourself, and building basic skills to be employed.

IMHO, there should be less focus on Math and Science in Basic education. They should still be offered to those interested, but there are more vital things to be taught in school.

All money going towards education should be dumped into the budget used to develop photovoltaic cells.

1. Literacy
2. Critical thinking
3. Life skills

I think the schools in my area are failing on all three counts, and by the looks of the adults around me, they have been failing for nearly 30 years.

1 Literacy, being able to read and comprehend books, maps, bus schedules, etc.

2 Critical thinking, being able to assimilate information and figure out what to do with it, being able to think about what is around you and to use the knowledge you have to solve problems and create new ideas

3 Life skills....is pretty self explanatory, but, if not, I mean learning how to take care of yourself, how to live mostly independently in the world...sadly most parents can't do this so how would they ever teach it to their offspring?

I can't believe *I* am about to say this....

Math skills aren't important? How do you know how much change you should get, how to measure to cook, how to figure out sales tax, how to figure out how much paint/wallpaper/carpeting you need?

ugh, and I HATE math.

i dunt needs no edumakashun
i is 2 kool 4 skool

I like the things said so far:

1. Convey appropriate skills needed for further specialization.
2. Basic "citizen's education"
3. Literacy
4. Critical thinking
5. Life skills

I would add that in my opinion, (formal) education should be a lifelong experience. The idea that it ends at some point is absurd.

I can't believe *I* am about to say this....

Math skills aren't important? How do you know how much change you should get, how to measure to cook, how to figure out sales tax, how to figure out how much paint/wallpaper/carpeting you need?

ugh, and I HATE math.

To a certain degree/level, it is useful. After that however, it is only worth studying if you plan on specializing in it or a field that uses it.

To a certain degree/level, it is useful. After that however, it is only worth studying if you plan on specializing in it or a field that uses it.

Basic math is useful, yes. But I challenge the usefulness of making Advanced Algebra a required course.

For non-vocational training, (college prep, here in the states) a well grounding in all of the most important fields, including general science, languages (native and foreign) and mathematics. For the construction of a responsible, involved citizen, there should also be a parallell program of citizenship training. An education in history, politics, sociology and economics is vital to the construction of the informed and enlightened citizen a modern democracy requires.

Vocational training must be made available for those who do not wish to participate in a college prep curriculum.

Basic math is useful, yes. But I challenge the usefulness of making Advanced Algebra a required course.

Which is what I thought I said, roughly.

Basic math is useful, yes. But I challenge the usefulness of making Advanced Algebra a required course.

Algebra is probably the most commonly used form of math in real life out there.

The first few years should be devoted primarily to languages. Teach kids the primary language of the area, and see if you can't mash a couple other ones in there while they're young and malleable.
Math, Science and History can be put off till 5th Grade, as you just keep reteaching the exact same, ridiculously simplified stuff each year before then.

So we're talking about grades 1-12 or something similar, right?

Education should focus more on critical and higher level thinking, on basic skills and life skills yes, but then move on to more thorough and in-depth classes. This would be for math, sciences, English, and history (and not just the country's history; world history). In these classes, students should not only do the work, they should be forced to think about it, to take the information and explain it and deduce other things from it. Life skills would also be taught, but with emphasis on living, not on being just another cog in a machine.
EDIT: I almost forgot. This would focus heavily on learning second languages as well.

This would be towards high school, but there would be an alternate section for those who do not want to pursue post-secondary education. This would focus more heavily on life skills and getting a job, on how to get by without higher level education.

I think schools should teach kids how to speak. Public speaking is important for almost any career and having real discussions is an important part of learning.

I had one teacher who tried to teach me "critical thinking," but all she did was have us write essays and give me bad grades for not having critical thinking in my essays. When I asked her what critical thinking was, she just said it was hard and I would get it eventually. I hated her.

Schools should also teach kids how to detect bullshit. Don't just tell them what is right and what is wrong, teach them how people who are lying to you try to trick you. If they started teaching that class, infomercials would cease to exist and politicians wouldn't answer every question with rambling.

uh, let's see

1.home language
2.logics
3.mathematics (including euclidean and analytic geometry)
4.basic natural sciences (physics, chemistry, geology, biology, astronomy)
5.history/geography/geopolitics
6.couple of foreign modern languages
7.modern philosophy (starting with Galileo)

that's all. all other things follow from these.

1) Critical thinking: this entails actual logic courses because it's fairly apparent that people are sorely lacking in this area and should continue to a basic philosophy course with an emphasis on analysis and discussion so as to foster the actual use and application of those critical thinking skills.

2) Basic literacy: the writing and reading capabilities of your average American college student are absurdly poor. This is kind of similar to the critical thinking courses, but the ability to read dense material and parse out the most important and relevant information needs to be taught in high school. It's a basic skill all people should have. The writing...well, I'm not talking about perfecting grammar and spelling, your average person, when pressed, can perform those tasks at an acceptable level. What does need to be taught is how to frame and present information in a text format so that you can, or at least have a chance to, maintain your reader's attention and not make their eyes bleed.

3) Basic math and sciences: there's no way around these, they have simply got to be taught. People should know the basic principles of how our universe works, pure and simple. This really doesn't require further explanation, imo.

4) Foreign language: bilingualism should really be a required goal of all education programs. There is no reason children shouldn't be taught a secondary language along with their primary when they are very young. The benefits of having a second language are numerous and fairly obvious.

5) History: everyone should know the history of their own country to a moderate level and have, at least, a basic understanding of world history. Should they find world history interesting, the opportunity is there, but without having any way to get their foot in the door, so to speak, there really isn't any way they'd discover this interest. I'm bundling local history with the political process, too, since they tend to go hand in hand in most curriculum that I've encountered.

6) Economics: finally, everyone should understand how the market they operate in works. When it comes down to it, economics is the study of resource management, not necessarily money or market in their abstract forms. Basic micro-economic skills should be required before any student graduates high school. Budget lines, opportunity costs, utility, production costs, etc. are things that should be fairly intuitive for students by the time they need to make actual use of the concepts in the real world and job market place.

7) Health and physical education: this goes without saying, really. A healthy body fosters a healthy mind, imo. Health classes to teach children about nutrition, diet, exercise techniques, etc. and basic physical education to ensure students are doing something to keep in somewhat healthy shape. This is actually especially important, in my opinion, during these times when sedentary entertainment is so vast and numerous it's fairly easy to spend little, if any, time doing physical activity, at all. Almost forgot that one.

Honestly, I don't see how that basic set would be hard to implement as a curriculum in any schooling system, public or private. I mean, the hardest part, as usual, is finding enough teachers. But....you know, maybe we can cut some of that big ol' military budget (for the US) and redirect to making teachers' jobs more appealing. Right now, the main reason I don't want to ever have to teach (aside from really not liking to be around children all that much) is that it pays shitty, gets no respect and it's so easy to lose your job on the slightest unverified accusation for anything from the serious (sexual harassment and such) to the ridiculous (telling an obnoxious student to sit down and stfu before I cane him). There really has to be a complete restructuring of our education system, both in its operation and its components, and needs to be soon.

1) History, and I don't mean rote memorization of dates. I mean start at the beginning of recorded history and examine, by time period, relevant societal advances between peoples, conflicts, technological and social changes. Including religious history, if you want to understand anything of the world at large you need to understand how it got this fucked up.
2) Literacy, not just the basic stuff either. Put a fork in Shakespeare though, that bastard is done, and frankly done to death.
3) Basic math and geometry. Algebra is frankly pointless for 99.9% of the population, let alone anything higher.
4) Foreign languages, everyone should be atleast bilingual, preferably trilingual.
5) Science, biology and physics specifically.

You guys go ahead and skip math, and I'll work out what your salaries should be. >_>

Inspired by another thread (which shall remain unnamed as I'm just a little ashamed I read something that stupid almost all the way through), I'd like to ask you lot what overall goals you think basic education should have. And by basic education, I mean the first 10-15 years worth (length varies around the globe).

To avoid making this an entirely Hit & Run thread, here's the short version of my opinion:
1. Convey appropriate skills needed for further specialization.
2. Basic "citizen's education"

The former, because even those of us who didn't initially go on to study other crap, had to specialize further to get a job. And that can be a surprisingly difficult thing to do, if you've only been taught skills relevant for academia.
The latter, because while people's ability to feed themselves is more important than their ability to participate meaningfully in the society they're part of, most people aren't nice enough to refrain from butting in, despite their own ignorance.

Feel free to post lengthy rants, prioritize, use smileys or whatever else catches your fancy. I'll be lurking for at least a few hours, though I probably won't post much since I'm studying, and unfortunately too old to have school as my day job.

Skill, good general knowledge and develop a culture which celebrates people learning for the sake of learning - beyond what is required for their job. Love learning so that rather than sit and watch tv, pick up a book, read and learn about something instead.

Skill, good general knowledge and develop a culture which celebrates people learning for the sake of learning - beyond what is required for their job. Love learning so that rather than sit and watch tv, pick up a book, read and learn about something instead.

Hey, I've learned a lot from TV.

Do you guys really think the average child will do all of this stuff? Most people will never learn any foreign languages unless they are forced to. Even if they are forced to study the language in school they don't care about it so they forget what they learned 5 years later. For the native english speaker, a foreign language is much more useless than calculus.

7) Health and physical education: this goes without saying, really. A healthy body fosters a healthy mind, imo. Health classes to teach children about nutrition, diet, exercise techniques, etc. and basic physical education to ensure students are doing something to keep in somewhat healthy shape. This is actually especially important, in my opinion, during these times when sedentary entertainment is so vast and numerous it's fairly easy to spend little, if any, time doing physical activity, at all. Almost forgot that one.Nobody does anything that they are taught to do in health class. Everyone knows this, but they continue to teach health. It's just wishful thinking.

Hey, I've learned a lot from TV.

Same, had a good documentry on Sufism, for example. The issue is, those who soley get their information from television - or more correctly, one source. For me, I watch a couple of hours of news each night, Prime followed by Tv3, then switch over to BBC, then CNN, then Sky followed by Fox if there is something decent. Then I head off and read some online articles.

Do you guys really think the average child will do all of this stuff? Most people will never learn any foreign languages unless they are forced to. Even if they are forced to study the language in school they don't care about it so they forget what they learned 5 years later. For the native english speaker, a foreign language is much more useless than calculus.


We aren't talking babies here. The OP was about "first 10-15 years of education" iirc. Hence, we're talking also adolescents here.

Most people will never learn any foreign languages unless forced to. That's why many people are so close-minded. Learning another language opens your mind to other cultures. Kids must have their mind forced open.

Native english speakers perform generally worse than non-native english speakers in many, many fields, and usually show a poorer english vocabulary when confronted with non-native english speakers. Might it be just because studying one's own language only (and quite a plain and grammatically oversimplified one to boot) isn't going to give you a grasp at the general structure of different languages? I think that having studied latin, ancient greek, german and russian gave me quite a boost in my native italian also.

Generally, education isn't "preparing one for his future job". It's more "build an intelligent, ethical, curious, creative, culturally rich, critical person".

Monolithic public school systems should not maintain a near monopoly on education for exactly the same reason other government monopolies needed to be broken. Why do people readily admit that ending other government monopolies greatly improves quality of service and lowers costs, but somehow think education is any different?

Anyway…

Education should be a continuous process – breaking for 2 or 3 moths during the summer just means that children have to spend 2 or 3 months at the beginning of the next school year relearning all that they have forgotten. I enjoyed my summers, and benefited greatly from them, because my parents used that time to home school me and travel the world. If every child spent the time seeing other countries and gaining real world experiences, I would be all for it. As it stands, the occasional week or even a 2 week break should be sufficient for most family trips.

The current measure of progress (defining students by what ‘year’ they are in) is silly. Students should advance based upon their academic progress. A student that excels at mathematics but cannot read should not still be pushed up to the higher levels just because they are getting older or their scores in other subjects balance out a failing score.

Each subject should have its own progress track which is broken into semesters. Pass a semester and move onto a higher level, fail and repeat that level, or if the child is struggling with the matter but not failing, perhaps there can be a remedial class as a transition to both review what the child struggled with as well as prepare them for the next semester. Those students who are advancing at a quick pace in all core curriculum subjects can take alternative courses for a broader education.

Young children (lets say less than 10 years of age) should be taught literacy, basic mathematics, logic, and a foreign language (easier to learn while young). Physical activity and fine arts (everything from sculpture to music) is good for health and creativity, but the focus should be kept on the four components of the core curriculum.

Children from 10 to 14 years should add history and science to the core education. At this point children should be highly encouraged to take extracurricular activities – sports, music, painting, cooking, gardening, whatever.

Teenagers should add economics and some skills to prepare for post-education life. Economics is more than just supply=demand; it teaches you how to think and look for the real causes and motivations rather than just accepting a blind ideology or making ‘common sense’ assumptions.

Sadly enough, most people have little to no knowledge about basic things like mechanics, plumbing, household budgets, and practical chemistry. These are little things, and should be learned at home, but that isn't happening.

Do you guys really think the average child will do all of this stuff? Most people will never learn any foreign languages unless they are forced to. Even if they are forced to study the language in school they don't care about it so they forget what they learned 5 years later. For the native english speaker, a foreign language is much more useless than calculus.

Nobody does anything that they are taught to do in health class. Everyone knows this, but they continue to teach health. It's just wishful thinking.

What do you mean "will do all this stuff"? If it's in the curriculum, yea, they will do all this stuff to one degree or another in order to pass. And....a whole lot of people are at least bilingual out of necessity. English as a learned language (to varying degrees) + their native language. So, yea, they might end up forgetting the language after they learn it, but a lot won't and, once you learn a language, it's a lot easier to pick it up again than it is to learn it entirely from scratch. Shit, just taking Arabic is giving me weird flashbacks to learning Hebrew when I was younger. Languages stick with people even if they can't speak it fluently for the rest of their lives.

When I speak of health class, I am talking about learning basic principles in nutrition, diet and exercise. As long as the kids have the knowledge, that's all I care about. It really isn't wishful thinking, it's common sense.

Monolithic public school systems should not maintain a near monopoly on education for exactly the same reason other government monopolies needed to be broken. Why do people readily admit that ending other government monopolies greatly improves quality of service and lowers costs, but somehow think education is any different?

Anyway…

Education should be a continuous process – breaking for 2 or 3 moths during the summer just means that children have to spend 2 or 3 months at the beginning of the next school year relearning all that they have forgotten. I enjoyed my summers, and benefited greatly from them, because my parents used that time to home school me and travel the world. If every child spent the time seeing other countries and gaining real world experiences, I would be all for it. As it stands, the occasional week or even a 2 week break should be sufficient for most family trips.

Feck off, I like summer.

To avoid making this an entirely Hit & Run thread, here's the short version of my opinion:
1. Convey appropriate skills needed for further specialization.
2. Basic "citizen's education"
Your second point is cleverly bypassing the question by using a spiral definition. What is "Citizen's Education"? Do you mean things like "How do you work out how much you need to earn a year in order to make your mortgage repayments?" or more along the lines of "What does it mean to work in industry?"

Both seem vital, which raises the point that Literacy, Numeracy and technical Proficiency are all necessary parts of being a member of society as much as simply knowing how to plan your work schedule, motivate yourself to work and pick up on where you should prioritise and focus your efforts.

To be honest, though, I think education should be far less vocationally focused. It is not much of an improvement to you as a person that you know how you repair a broken computer, or what particular disease this individual has, or when is a good time to buy or sell on the stock market. The acquisition of "knowledge" is becoming a task of diminishing value, particularly as the automation methods for storage and retrieval of information are becoming so well refined, broadly applied and, most importantly, quick to reference. If, as is entirely possible, you may eventually be able to scan a local repository and return an answer to a query faster then human memory would be able to, then knowing things actually becomes relatively worthless.

The key question becomes not "What do I need to know?" but "What do I need?", and as a result, the focus of education becomes the development of intuition through experience as to how to
1) identify and conceptually phrase the requirements of any given situation
2) interpret and understand knowledge that we are presented with
3) use existing knowledge to construct new ideas
4) enjoy both the exploration and creation processes
5) appreciate/constructively contribute to the creations of others

I like a lot of the suggestions so far, but I'd like to add another interesting possibility. Teaching kids how to relate to one another without being assholes. Definitely deserves its own class, IMO.

Literacy (including spelling and grammar)

Basic math skills (being able to calculate a 15% tip in my head should not inspire awe in my college student friends!)

Social/interpersonal skills
-basics of running a household for all students
-international understanding
-self esteem

Those are all pretty standard goals, I think.
Not standard is my thought that all kids should receive some sort of survival/orienteering/outdoors skills. Even in a city setting you can teach kids the cardinal directions, how to recognize if weather is changing, different types of animals (local animals - until I was 18, I could recognize 3 types of tigers, but not a woodchuck).

I like a lot of the suggestions so far, but I'd like to add another interesting possibility. Teaching kids how to relate to one another without being assholes. Definitely deserves its own class, IMO.
I'd say that it would be better to create a school where that is part and parcel of every class and not just its own class.

I'd say that it would be better to create a school where that is part and parcel of every class and not just its own class.

Just make relating to other kids as non-assholes in other classes part of the homework. That'd be essentially the same thing.

Algebra is probably the most commonly used form of math in real life out there.

Geometry too.... (Figuring out how much carpeting you need, for example...)

Feck off, I like summer.

Ditto, quoth the English teacher. I need those two months to spend time with my family and friends (I don't have the luxury of doing that for ten months), to recharge, and to create new lesson plans for the coming year.

Just make relating to other kids as non-assholes in other classes part of the homework. That'd be essentially the same thing.
But how on Earth do you check that?

But how on Earth do you check that?

With advanced techniques like looking and listening, I presume.

With advanced techniques like looking and listening, I presume.
HotRodia, I teach 549 individual students and I'm in a school with 1,500 of them. I see them from about 8 am to 4 pm Monday through Friday. There's no way for me to track them all, not to mention once they go home I'm NOT going to give up my free time to go check in and make sure they're playing nice for homework.

I mean, how'd you like it if Max or [Violet] decreed that you Mods had to keep tabs on every Generalite 24/7 to make sure we're behaving ourselves? ;)

My sole interest in education was to get a high-paying job in a field I am interested in. Other than that, learning is a hobby; I'd rather do it in my free time on my own schedule than spend time and money in a school environment.

HotRodia, I teach 549 individual students and I'm in a school with 1,500 of them. I see them from about 8 am to 4 pm Monday through Friday. There's no way for me to track them all, not to mention once they go home I'm NOT going to give up my free time to go check in and make sure they're playing nice for homework.

I mean, how'd you like it if Max or [Violet] decreed that you Mods had to keep tabs on every Generalite 24/7 to make sure we're behaving ourselves? ;)

Well, for one, I wasn't suggesting that you follow them home or watch them all the time. I suggested that their homework be to relate to others well while in other classes. Which means they'd be doing that homework under the supervision of other teachers. Who will be watching their behavior anyway.

When I taught, I managed to notice which kids were acting up in class and how they were doing so, and sometimes discussed it with other teachers who had those students. I hardly think this is some special ability I had.

Well, for one, I wasn't suggesting that you follow them home or watch them all the time. I suggested that their homework be to relate to others well while in other classes. Which means they'd be doing that homework under the supervision of other teachers. Who will be watching their behavior anyway.

When I taught, I managed to notice which kids were acting up in class and how they were doing so, and sometimes discussed it with other teachers who had those students. I hardly think this is some special ability I had.
That's not homework, that's classroom control, which is what teachers are supposed to be doing anyway.

Actually have some time to type up what I think should be included:

Language Arts (Lit, speech, drama, rhetoric, and media studies): All of the above are nessicary to not only communicate efectively, but also understand when people are attempting to use you as a puppet.

Math (Basic through geometry): I don't LIKE math, but we really need it.

Physical sciences (Bio, Chem, Geology, Phys): Yes, we really do need to have scientifically literate students. The current debate on Creationism vs. the Theory of Evolution proves this one. Besides, I'm tired of being only one of a handful of people who seem to understand how the seasons happen.

P.E.: I hated it when I was in high school, but given my current shape (Potato like) and the health issues I may face... I should have done more. As a good deal of Americans are actually larger than I am though...

History/Geography: We need to know where, what, and why to understand what is currently going on in the world.

Music/Art: The more I read up on these (And see it in action in Japan where they are manditory), I agree that having them really does help out students in logical thinking.

Home Ec: Yup, everyone should at LEAST know how to cook something more than ramen and mac and cheese (See P.E.), and Home Ec also should cover such things as household budgets, shopping, and consumerism. Yes, boys should have to take it too.

Health/Nutrition: In theory, parents should teach this, in reality though...

Civics/Government: All students should be able to name the three branches of government, what they do, and why this is important. We don't need to instill patriotism, but we do need a population that understands why they should vote and what it actually means.

That's not homework, that's classroom control, which is what teachers are supposed to be doing anyway.

Funny thing, ain't it? I wasn't really suggesting much extra effort after all, just an increased cognizance of the issue.

There are two big factors I've seen contribute to folks losing their jobs. The local economy taking a hit (leading to layoffs), and them not being able to relate to their co-workers (leading to firing or quitting). It's a rather serious and systemic problem.

Oh, how I wish most parents actually taught their kids about relating to others. Honestly, there are a lot of things about public education that, it seems to me, ought to be dealt with by the parents. But due to various practical realities, that's not generally happening. So as usual, we're trying to dump a fuckton of responsibility on the teachers. Not cool, I know.

Education should be left solely to the jurisdiction of parents.

My experience is that the parents of bullies are just too stupid to know how much of a brat their kid is. If you talk to their parents the bullies will leave you alone after that.

Not only are teachers stupid, but they don't care if someone is shoved around in class. Teachers just ignore it. They know they aren't supposed to ignore it, but is anyone going to fire them? No. Teachers don't follow rules, they think they're above the law.

Before you say I must have grown up in the ghetto or something, I grew up in an upper middle class town that's supposed to have great public schools. And it still sucked. A lot of teachers refused to teach my autistic sister, even though the law is clear about not discriminating against disabled kids. My sister can read and write, so what's the problem?

One other thing... when I was in school they always pretended that they where teaching everyone how to get along. At the beginning of every year they always said bullying is not tolerated at all. But then they would tolerate it. When I was in first and second grade they tested everyone on their social skills, but they did nothing to discourage students from being jerks to each other. They only got in trouble if they where rude to the teacher.

Education should be left solely to the jurisdiction of parents.

If those parents are able to remove themselves and their children from influencing, in any way, society, then I'd agree. As it is, those children will end up (if they aren't already) components of society so, no, it isn't something that can be left solely to the jurisdiction of parents. Freedom and liberty is not a pass to allow ignorance and stupidity if it can be easily avoided.

Secondary level education should leave children not only with an essential level of competance in the three R's, but also with a grounding in philosophy, history, literature, science, art and music, and the ability to speak a foreign language.

I'd also make Latin compulsory until 16, however I fear that particular ship, as it were, has sailed.

Note how New Labour have failed to accomplish any of this perfectly reasonable list of expectations.

You guys are crazy. If parents can't even teach their kids to stop eating potato chips, how can teachers teach everyone latin? Most people won't put a lot of effort into anything that doesn't result in an immediate reward for them. If they grew up in a disadvantaged country they might see the need to learn a lot, but if they're a middle class american there's no motivation unless they just happen to love learning. If they're one of the students who wants to learn a lot, it's their responsibility to learn. All the teachers should do is try to stay out of the student's way. It's ridiculous to think that parents are incompetent, but teachers are capable of doing all of this stuff. Most teachers are stupid and they often get in the way of students who want to learn. Schools like middle of the road students, and they don't handle very smart or very stupid students well. Some schools can't even handle artists or musicians.