NationStates Jolt Archive

The long time pro-democracy advocate in Tonga, People’s Representative Akilisi Pohiva, says putting scarce public money into an army is a misuse of resources.

Mr Pohiva, who is leading a campaign for political reform to take place by next year against a government commitment to make changes by 2010, says the military gets more public funding than agriculture and fisheries.

He says the about 500-strong Tonga Defence Service exists solely to protect the monarchy, but he says the money spent on this should go towards social services such as health and education.

“Samoa for example, doesn’t have an army and I think this is one of the reasons why Samoa is far far ahead. But the only reason why we have an army, is the army is out there to make sure the monarchy is well secured, is well protected.”

(link (http://www.rnzi.com/pages/news.php?op=read&id=36069))

A number of other countries -including Costa Rica, Palau and Iceland- have no military. Do you agree with Pohiva? Are there more countries which could (and perhaps should) dispense with their military, and use those funds for other purposes?

If I am right, Iceland and a host of other nations (mainly in the South Pacific) have no military because some other power is obliged to defend them in case they become the target of aggressors.

Costa Rica and Panama are exceptions, though. AFAIK Costa Rica abolished its military in 1948 after its civil war (they do have a Civil Guard - Guardia Civil). Panama did so in the 1990's because it doesn't want any more military dictatorships.

First one to find Tonga on a map gets to invade!

First one to find Tonga on a map gets to invade!

Right here:

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/2656/tongatbdlj9.png

If you can get away with not having a defensive military force, more power to ya.

If you can get away with not having a defensive military force, more power to ya.

Well, Tonga hasn't really got any enemies...

Abolishing the military would mean withdrawing Tonga's troops from Iraq, though.

First one to find Tonga on a map gets to invade!

So that's how they do it in the white house! But Dubya cheated for Iraq; he googled it.

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Global disarmament would free up vast economic resources. I don't know the figures, but I wouldn't be surprised if half of all military spending would be enough to solve world hunger a few times over. Fear and the greed for power are the only things that prevent this from being feasible.

Tonga is in the middle of nowhere, has no value militarily or strategically, and doesn't have any use economically. It'd be like taking over an anthill.

Right here:

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/2656/tongatbdlj9.png

I thought that was R'lyeh! :P

(Oh wait, it's just close to Pohnpei, which is ten days from R'lyeh.)

Well, Tonga hasn't really got any enemies...

Abolishing the military would mean withdrawing Tonga's troops from Iraq, though.

Whatev.

Sure why not. It wouldn't make any difference because if a country with a real army wanted to invade them then their current 500 troops wouldn't have any more chance of winning than 0 troops would.

(link (http://www.rnzi.com/pages/news.php?op=read&id=36069))

A number of other countries -including Costa Rica, Palau and Iceland- have no military. Do you agree with Pohiva? Are there more countries which could (and perhaps should) dispense with their military, and use those funds for other purposes?

iceland has a coast guard running fisheries protection. does that not count as military? i mean they've even fired shots in 'war'. i'm not sure what qualifies something as military.

iceland has a coast guard running fisheries protection. does that not count as military? i mean they've even fired shots in 'war'. i'm not sure what qualifies something as military.
They don't really have an army or navy - they have a coast guard, true, and they also have what amounts to an Icelandic GSG-9esque force under the control of their Chief of Police, called Viking Squad, which have also been deployed in the Balkans and, lately, Iraq, but they don't really have much of standing army.

There is some level of movement for a proper Icelandic defence force, and 68% of the public have said "yeah, whatever, cool" or thereabouts in response to a survey on the matter, but the jury's still out.




Anyay - more on topic - erm, let's hope they have 500 other jobs waiting for the soldiers they're going to sack, or it'll turn a bit East Timor-esque, methinks.

If there's no chance of your country being invaded and you lack the resources to field a powerful army, sure. Why waste money on something that provides no additional security and just drains resources better spent elsewhere?

Sure why not. It wouldn't make any difference because if a country with a real army wanted to invade them then their current 500 troops wouldn't have any more chance of winning than 0 troops would.
My thoughts exactly. Small countries don't stand a chance against invasions anyway, so maintaining an army is just a waste of money.

If there's no chance of your country being invaded and you lack the resources to field a powerful army, sure. Why waste money on something that provides no additional security and just drains resources better spent elsewhere?
For the purposes of running Very Tiny Parades, obviously. Buh.

Why on Earth would anyone invade Tonga in the first place? Tonga having a standing army is like putting an expensive lock on a rusty bike with flat tires and warped wheels. Why bother if no one wants to nick it?

iceland has a coast guard running fisheries protection. does that not count as military? i mean they've even fired shots in 'war'. i'm not sure what qualifies something as military.

Coast Guards are more like sea police most of the time.

Anyway, Tonga doesn't need a military. They're small and nobody wants to take over them, so what they spend militarily could probably be better used in other areas.

Coast Guards are more like sea police most of the time.
They still fired at the Royal Navy, which was pretty brave. Shoulda crushed them, really, but ah well. Was not the spirit of the times.

But if Tonga has no army; then who will march around in those fancy parades for the King and give him an opportunity to wear his monocle?

My thoughts exactly. Small countries don't stand a chance against invasions anyway, so maintaining an army is just a waste of money.

If I remember right, Finland pretty much kicked Sovjet ass, at least in the beginning.

Why on Earth would anyone invade Tonga in the first place?

pretty much the same reasons anyone uses to explain why they felt the inclination to invade anywhere else, i assume

If I remember right, Finland pretty much kicked Sovjet ass, at least in the beginning.
On a tactical but not overall strategic level, yes.

They still lost a whole load of territory which they only got back in 1944 for kicking out the Germans.

So that's how they do it in the white house! But Dubya cheated for Iraq; he googled it.

---

Global disarmament would free up vast economic resources. I don't know the figures, but I wouldn't be surprised if half of all military spending would be enough to solve world hunger a few times over. Fear and the greed for power are the only things that prevent this from being feasible.


well, fear and greed are the only real reasons that there IS any hunger in the world.

Anyay - more on topic - erm, let's hope they have 500 other jobs waiting for the soldiers they're going to sack, or it'll turn a bit East Timor-esque, methinks.

I doubt it'll happen. The guy who suggested it is in the pro-democracy camp - a political minority in Parliament.

If there's no chance of your country being invaded and you lack the resources to field a powerful army, sure. Why waste money on something that provides no additional security and just drains resources better spent elsewhere?

Sounds a logical enough reason for Tonga to do away with its military, yes.

The only use they're putting it to right now is securing the US' friendship (and if possible aid) by sending Tongan soldiers to Iraq.

But if Tonga has no army; then who will march around in those fancy parades for the King and give him an opportunity to wear his monocle?
FACT: There is no wrong time to wear a monocle.

The army isn't to protect them from other countries but from themselves.

But if Tonga has no army; then who will march around in those fancy parades for the King and give him an opportunity to wear his monocle?

Bah. I can't find a good picture of him with his monocle. T'is a shame.

Why on Earth would anyone invade Tonga in the first place? Tonga having a standing army is like putting an expensive lock on a rusty bike with flat tires and warped wheels. Why bother if no one wants to nick it?

Oh I don't know. Makes a good launching platform for invading nearby islands :D

Well, Tonga will be underwater by 2050 anyway so there's no need of an army since they'll be nothing to defend in 2050. :p

Tonga? Where the hell is that? Africa?
I totally thought that when I first heard about it a few years ago...

But I think they should have a small police force like Haiti and contribute to a regional defense force and navy that is collective amongst the Pacific nations. Well all the Pacific Islands should unite IMO anyway...

Its funny how America has a standing army. Even though the constitution explicitly forbids it.

A number of other countries -including Costa Rica, Palau and Iceland- have no military. Do you agree with Pohiva? Are there more countries which could (and perhaps should) dispense with their military, and use those funds for other purposes?

First off, a military can and is used in other ways besides defending one's nation. Having one's own military does have it's benefits. However, in this case I would have to agree with Mr.Pohiva, the benefits of Tonga having a military do not seem to outweigh it's disadvantages (cost being one of them).

The Federated States of Micronesia being a good example. They have no military and are about the same size both in population and area to Tonga. Have they cease to be a nation? No...

Besides, Australia and New Zealand are pretty close by to come to Tonga's aid if they are ever invaded.

One point that hasn't been brought up though is that instead of Tonga completely eliminating it's military it could just reduce it in size thereby reducing the cost to support it. At the moment Tonga spends $2.196 million out of budget of $244 million on it's military. By reducing the defense forces from 450 to 225 and some other adjustments the Tonga's could probably almost cut the amount they spend in defense by half. That's one thing they could consider. At the same time as reducing cost, it would allow Tonga to maintain a military force and all the benefits this brings.

For those who want a little more information on Tonga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonga)

Personally I think a standing army is necessary, but of course wrong. If you dispense with the military of all the small nations, then who's to say that a nation with a large military (say, the US) won't forge an empire? And who's to say these small nations cannot forge alliances? (and personally I don't think that any nation is going to fully give up the most direct source of political power it has lightly.)

Then again, if its a small nation, and prefers peaceful means, then by all means...

First off, a military can and is used in other ways besides defending one's nation. Having one's own military does have it's benefits. However, in this case I would have to agree with Mr.Pohiva, the benefits of Tonga having a military do not seem to outweigh it's disadvantages (cost being one of them).

The Federated States of Micronesia being a good example. They have no military and are about the same size both in population and area to Tonga. Have they cease to be a nation? No...

Besides, Australia and New Zealand are pretty close by to come to Tonga's aid if they are ever invaded.

One point that hasn't been brought up though is that instead of Tonga completely eliminating it's military it could just reduce it in size thereby reducing the cost to support it. At the moment Tonga spends $2.196 million out of budget of $244 million on it's military. By reducing the defense forces from 450 to 225 and some other adjustments the Tonga's could probably almost cut the amount they spend in defense by half. That's one thing they could consider. At the same time as reducing cost, it would allow Tonga to maintain a military force and all the benefits this brings.

For those who want a little more information on Tonga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonga)

Australia save the day? We barely have enough troops to cover our commitments in Iraq, Afghanistian, the middle east, Solomons Island, East Timor, etc!

Abolishing the military would mean withdrawing Tonga's troops from Iraq, though.


Really? Both of them? Shit...