NationStates Jolt Archive

Perhaps a year or more ago, I saw an effort here to survey the political landscape of Nationstates General through the use of the Political Compass (http://www.politicalcompass.org). The results were plotted on an image, which was simply magnificent in size (and was unbelievably full).

This image was probably (hopefully) created by a program, but I do remember that it wasn't dynamic. It had to be updated with new data from the threads.

A while ago, I had occasion to write a rudimentary graphical plotting utility in PHP, which I immediately tried out by combining it with a database-driven script for storing Compass results and mapping them. The tool has been well-received on the regional boards of The North Pacific, so I guess it would be interesting to test it with a larger audience.

--

Here's how it works:

1. Take the PC test (http://www.politicalcompass.org) or recall your last scores if they're only a few months back.
2. Enter your coordinates in the web form. (http://embassy.ermarian.net/services/compass/form/7414d8c5) You may enter or leave out your name as you wish.
3. The image below now has a new point.

http://embassy.ermarian.net/services/compass/map/7414d8c5?img=1&width=400 (http://embassy.ermarian.net/services/compass/map/7414d8c5)
(click to enlarge) (http://embassy.ermarian.net/services/compass/map/7414d8c5)
(click to enlarge to 2000x2000, if it's really cluttered) (http://embassy.ermarian.net/services/compass/map/7414d8c5?img=1&width=2000)

(No ballot-stuffing please. We are not trying to demonstrate a point or prove NS as fundamentally liberal or conservative. This is an experiment.)

very cool
(although it might have been a bad idea to allow anonymous posting, makes it easier to cheat.)

Oh, crap!

I made a mistake...the social axis was meant to have a negative sign. I'm so sorry. :(

Oh, crap!

I made a mistake...the social axis was meant to have a negative sign. I'm so sorry. :(
Now you're closer to George W. Bush! ;)

I did it.

If you wanted to help prevent ballot stuffing, why not ignore anonymous points when calculating the average.

I believe I am the furtherest horizontally left, yah!

Neu Leonstein: Fixed your point.

Neu Leonstein: Fixed your point.
Yay!

Had to type in my results between 5-10 times before it finally worked. Anyway, the downer left corner seems to dominate pretty hard.

Neat idea.

Seems I'm almost the most left-wing.

I'm in the middle of clumpville. ;)

Epic. I'm the most liberal economically :D

I am, apparently, sitting on UNIverseVERSE's head. Sorry dude.

Done. :)

*enjoys the precious few moments while she's the leftestest on the map*

I am, apparently, sitting on UNIverseVERSE's head. Sorry dude.

He likes it. :p

Done. :)

*enjoys the precious few moments while she's the leftestest on the map*

Hmmm... You do seem to be a fraction of an inch further to the left than I am.

Mostly, though, you're directly beneath me. ;)

Hmmm... You do seem to be a fraction of an inch further to the left than I am.
Aye, just about, but since I'm also lower on the social axis I so totally win in all-around leftestness and awesomity.

Mostly, though, you're directly beneath me. ;)You wish. ;)

:eek: I haven't taken that test in a loooong time.

I mooved. :eek:

Aye, just about, but since I'm also lower on the social axis I so totally win in all-around leftestness and awesomity.


Heh. I need to become less authoritarian, it seems.


You wish. ;)

Well, you put yourself there. :D

Wow, I was surprised when I saw I was past -8. I was shocked when I saw I was only fifth lowest. Last time I took the test I think I scored exactly 1 point to the right of Ghandi (economically). I've moved a LOT since then.

I guess losing my virginity and seeing all of the havoc religious extremists cause for no reason whatsoever has pushed me down over the last year.

Well, that's interesting.

It appears that Eureka Australis is the most left wing, Smunkee the most Liberal, Neu Leonstein the most right wing, and Questers the most authoritarian.

And Upper Botswavia is like me, but slightly more left and less liberal. Move it, dude! I was here first.

Well, that's interesting.

It appears that Eureka Australis is the most left wing, Smunkee the most Liberal, Neu Leonstein the most right wing, and Questers the most authoritarian.

And Upper Botswavia is like me, but slightly more left and less liberal. Move it, dude! I was here first.

I can't believe I am the most liberal... maybe we don't have enough of a sample yet.

I can't believe I am the most liberal... maybe we don't have enough of a sample yet.

You're basically -10 socially, you have to be.

I am, apparently, sitting on UNIverseVERSE's head. Sorry dude.

Mind if I squeeze in here?

losing my virginity and seeing all of the havoc religious extremists cause for no reason whatsoever has pushed me down

I'm -9.50 already. Clearly, if I ever get laid I am going to break the scale. ^_^

And my slow drift leftward continues unabated.

Mind if I squeeze in here?

Yes. It's okay however, because you're mostly sitting on UB, not myself. I'll just leave you two to it, shall I?

Damn, I was just a bit off center into left, libertarian box. I guess that means I can't be pegged to one group or another. However I do consider myself conservative.

You're basically -10 socially, you have to be.

I guess you are right... I just..... I don't know.... I guess I am really socially liberal.

I fucked it up.. :(

I just..... I don't know.... I guess I am really socially liberal.

Welcome to progress. ;)

there now I am never doing that compass again! (can someone make a new one or sometihng I mean really)

also it appears I'm not that left or liberal...the hell is going on :confused:

I feel so lonely.

I feel so lonely.

thats what you get for siding with the autobots!

I guess you are right... I just..... I don't know.... I guess I am really socially liberal.

Yeah, you're the biggest baby eater out of all of us so far! :eek:

there now I am never doing that compass again! (can someone make a new one or sometihng I mean really)

also it appears I'm not that left or liberal...the hell is going on :confused:

Those dirty commies skew it too much!

Oh, how lonely I am among the authoritarians. I probably would be further right as well, if it didn't assume not wanting monopolies as being liberal.

Could the "So----" person sitting on top of me at least have the decency to identify themselves? :mad::p

Oh, how lonely I am among the authoritarians. I probably would be further right as well, if it didn't assume not wanting monopolies as being liberal.

Yeah, our quadrant is quite lonely :(

Don't worry, Questers - I'm here for you!

Yay for being within one standard deviation of the average! Yay!

Cool. I was wondering when one of these would pop up again.

Hilary Clinton posts here?

No, but some idiot stuck her name on in the extreme upper right, and some other idiot reponded by putting Romney and Giuliani up there too. Do us a favor and remove those.

I'm -5.38/-6.00, if anyone cares.

-8.38, -7.18

Looks good to me.

Economic 6.75, Social -5.33.

Fairly accurate, I say. A little more right than I thought I was, since some of the questions don't have an 'ambivalent' choice, or force you to choose between two answers you don't agree with.

Economic 6.75, Social -5.33.

Fairly accurate, I say. A little more right than I thought I was, since some of the questions don't have an 'ambivalent' choice, or force you to choose between two answers you don't agree with.

Yay! I'm 6.12,-3.22

I propose a Soyut-Laterale Alliance... and if others in our quadrant of awesome want in...

lol look at FreedomAndGlory up in the Fascist Corner...

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/3584/pcgraphpngphpkw4.png
here.

Excellent.

Seems like the corner of Right Libertarians is not so devoid after all.

See my signature... There is no way to be more economically collectivist than me. Yay. :D

I find it interesting that while the authoritarian-right and libertarian-left quadrants dominate in real life, in NationStates it's the libertarian-right and libertarian-left that dominate. Why do we have such a near-total lack of authoritarian players? Where are all the conservatives?

I wish I could say I was amused by people adding various US presidential candidates (Clinton, Giuliani, Romney) to the map, either to make political statements (in letting Clinton be fanatically conservative, for instance) or just to skew the average. But really it's just irksome - I hoped this would be a representative map of the community. If you want, I can make the tool available as a download so it can be played around with freely. :)

The obvious jokes have been weeded out. Also, there are some duplicate votes which have been removed.

Comparing NS (and The North Pacific) with another community, I've noticed that the variation is (of course!) greater here, but also something else: The other place has most of its variation in the vertical direction; the deviation circles form an upright ellipsis. Here, we have a horizontal ellipsis: Most people are socially liberal, but the spread between collectivist and capitalist economic philosophies is far greater.

Chandy's closest to the average again.

F'n'G is almost the opposite of the average.

I lie directly on the average of the economic axis, and I'm slightly more socially conservative than average. That seems about right.

A couple of questions:

I know little about computers beyond this forum. How does this site work?
Also, does anyone know how one could the information behind the Political Compass, so he could find out how answer a question affects the score? I think it would be interesting to find someone's political antipodes, but would of course need the quiz data first. I sent an email to the site, and received no response. Does anyone know of a sneakier way to find out?

Finally, I would like to recommend the Political Survey quiz, which is open source. The link is in my signature; it's the score with Pragmatic/Idealist and Left/Right.

Which site? The Political Compass, or my map?

As far as I know, nobody has bothered to experiment with the questions. You can find out by keeping the other answers equal and seeing how the score shifts depending on one answer.

Which site? The Political Compass, or my map?
Both, actually. But I was referring in my post to your site.


As far as I know, nobody has bothered to experiment with the questions. You can find out by keeping the other answers equal and seeing how the score shifts depending on one answer.
I know, but I don't really want to do that. I may have to, though.

If you want, I can make the tool available as a download so it can be played around with freely. :)

That might be interesting. Is it easy to run for someone who has very limited understanding of even HTML? :rolleyes: Could it be run just on my comp?

Which site? The Political Compass, or my map?

As far as I know, nobody has bothered to experiment with the questions. You can find out by keeping the other answers equal and seeing how the score shifts depending on one answer.

I always thought strongly was 10 or -10 and regular agree was 5 or -5. But it could vary with each one. They also need to give explanations because it took me a while to figure out what they were talking about. Not to mention that some are confusingly worded.

I always thought strongly was 10 or -10 and regular agree was 5 or -5. But it could vary with each one. They also need to give explanations because it took me a while to figure out what they were talking about. Not to mention that some are confusingly worded.
And then the average is taken? That makes sense, I'm going to test that out.

Economic Left/Right: 10
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.51

It looks like I'm pretty close to the center for NSG. :)

It's similar as to a few months ago, although I'm more socially liberal by about half a point.

The slow, left- and downward trend continues, though I'm still 8th most authoritarian.

Wow. We are now in a situation where just being a little above +2 on the social scale is enough to place you further than two standard deviations away from the mean.

This forum is very socially liberal.

This forum is very socially liberal.

As well as quite socialist.

It looks like LG is my closest neighbor... *gets mud resistant curtains*

I made a separate topic for my proposals with regards to collages and alternate quizzes... are they relevant enough to be put into this topic as well?

It looks like LG is my closest neighbor... *gets mud resistant curtains*

Those may not be enough...

Anyway, on a more general note, here's my scores, which have been duly entered for the sake of science.

Economic Left/Right: 0.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.46

As well as quite socialist.

Party time!?!

Party time!?!

If you wish to party about the blatantly obvious, yes.

l
l
V

Economic Left/Right: 4.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.88

Moved back away from the eeevil socialists, I have.

This may be the first time I've ever felt like a political majority.

It looks like LG is my closest neighbor... *gets mud resistant curtains*

Yay! :)

*readies the catapult*

Economic Left/Right: -0.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.69

Economic Left/Right: -5.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.90

The (pretty large, catually) change from mah old score is mainly due to my current disappointment in democracy, and hence my perceived lack of need for it, with my views on religion, sexuality etc. staying the same, and my economic score being affected by the fact that I'm more of a pragmatist than I once was.

If only Andaras Prime where here... Then we could see just how leftist the nut really is! :D

I notice I've become slightly less left than I was when I first tested myself. I think that's to do with grudging acceptance that corporate business is integral to society, but still needs to be regulated. Also, slightly more liberal due to gaining more liberal views on sex etc.

It is a PHP application and can only run on a webserver. For local installation, I can recommend the xampp (http://xampp.org) server, but I'm not sure how easy this is without prior experience.

I'm afraid the scripts are not yet documented sufficiently to use and understand without quite a bit of PHP expertise.

Well if you throw it online anyway, I'll have a look through it, even if no-one else does. (Although I do lisp not php).

What would be really interesting would be a way of allowing people to password their position, and then re-enter themselves regularly, so we could trace the political evolution of NSG. Maybe we should run one of these every few months.

If only Andaras Prime where here... Then we could see just how leftist the nut really is! :D
He got deleted ;)

tag. will post the graphs from when i did this last year when i can find the thread...

He got deleted ;)

Yeah I know. It's a real pity he went over the line like he did. I miss him. :(

Yeah I know. It's a real pity he went over the line like he did. I miss him. :(
Aye. Probably didn't help much with my whole general battering of Marxism thing, and the time of day it was in Australia. Feeling a bit sorry for that, to be honest.

Yeah I know. It's a real pity he went over the line like he did. I miss him.

Yeah, I know. Now who will I make fun of?

Where are all the conservatives?

It pains me to say this, but most Authoritarian Right people do not count political discussion as important. And most of the Authoritarian Right people I know are over 50, so only those with a technological background know how to use a computer well, and few of these either enjoy political discussion or enjoy talking online.

Also there are alotof people with conservative views who don't necessarily want to see them implemented in government, or impose them on people. To be honest I'm not sure what the compass is meant to show, what you believe or what you believe should be implemented in government.

Could the "So----" person sitting on top of me at least have the decency to identify themselves? :mad::p
Oh, judging from the not-quite-so-enlarged version of the map it's Soheran. That's alright then.

MINES NOT THERE!!!!!

*Has mental break down*

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::p:eek::eek::eek::eek:

map need moar zoom. cannot see many names.

edit, scrap that, noticed the other links in the OP.

Also there are alotof people with conservative views who don't necessarily want to see them implemented in government, or impose them on people. To be honest I'm not sure what the compass is meant to show, what you believe or what you believe should be implemented in government.

I'm pretty sure it's what you believe. Were any of the questions phrased with reference to the government implementing things?

It pains me to say this, but most Authoritarian Right people do not count political discussion as important. And most of the Authoritarian Right people I know are over 50, so only those with a technological background know how to use a computer well, and few of these either enjoy political discussion or enjoy talking online.

Interesting conclusion.

I would ask why people feel the need to vandalize the top right, but then we'd get into a discussion about the inherent nature of humanity (or lack thereof). At any rate, it's really distorting the average, so is there any way to prevent it?

Of course there is. The vandals have been identified, their results tossed, and their IPs (or rather those of their anonymizing proxy, Anonymouse) permanently blocked from my site. Two strikes, out.

Wtf!? HotRodia, get out of my segmant! Dis is maaa segmant! :p

A slightly cleaned version of the application (which I haven't had time to test again, alas) is now available for download (http://ermarian.net/downloads/php/compass-0.1.tar.gz). Installation instructions are included.

Also, the graphics are generated by the phpPlot (http://ermarian.net/downloads/php/phpplot) library, which has to be downloaded separately.

A slightly cleaned version of the application (which I haven't had time to test again, alas) is now available for download (http://ermarian.net/downloads/php/compass-0.1.tar.gz). Installation instructions are included.

Also, the graphics are generated by the phpPlot (http://ermarian.net/downloads/php/phpplot) library, which has to be downloaded separately.

Why do people use zips that no one else can open?

hmm i've become slightly less left wing, it would seem...

Economic Left/Right: -8.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.56

It is not a zip (ie a WinZip-compressed archive). It is a gzip-compressed tar archive, the kind of which are common for distribution of software for multiple non-Windows systems. Unlike WinZip, this is a file everyone can open, because gzip is available for all operating systems.

Why are some Windows users so unbelievably lazy? WinZip opens tar.gz anyway.

It is not a zip (ie a WinZip-compressed archive). It is a gzip-compressed tar archive, the kind of which are common for distribution of software for multiple non-Windows systems. Unlike WinZip, this is a file everyone can open, because gzip is available for all operating systems.

Why are some Windows users so unbelievably lazy?

for XP, WinRar is pretty good (does tars and stuff) http://www.rarlab.com/download.htm

for XP, WinRar is pretty good (does tars and stuff) http://www.rarlab.com/download.htm

WinRAR is horrible. It messes up my computer and converts everything to some wacko file.

It is not a zip (ie a WinZip-compressed archive). It is a gzip-compressed tar archive, the kind of which are common for distribution of software for multiple non-Windows systems. Unlike WinZip, this is a file everyone can open, because gzip is available for all operating systems.

Why are some Windows users so unbelievably lazy? WinZip opens tar.gz anyway.

I don't have WinZip. All I have is compressed files.

I've gotten a lot more right and authoritarian apparently... that can't be right.
*goes to retake test*

Why is F&G even remotely on the compass?

*confused*

Did it. Put me on the bottom left edge, the furthest fringe of the anarchist left. I would have thought there would be more people in the same region. Precisely 2 sigma away from median, which shows how left and libertarian this forum is.

If I'm not mistaken, the cross hairs have slowly been trending towards my triangle, confirming my belief that I'm utterly average.

I need some more right-wing authoritarians to take this test to...make it so.

Took the test, added myself.

My score:

Economic Left/Right: 10.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.85

Those standard deviation ellipses are just getting flatter and flatter, confirming the fact that this forum is overwhelmingly libertarian and mostly left-wing.

Notice that the libertarian trend is much stronger than the left-wing trend. Consider these facts:

1. As of now, we have only 10 authoritarians.
2. But we do have 24 economic liberals ("right-wingers").

And while some people have been wondering why the authoritarian-right is so empty, I'm wondering why the authoritarian-left is even emptier... I mean, so far we have only 4 authoritarian leftists, and they're all pretty close to either the center or the x-axis.

O Stalin, where art thou?

Did it. Put me on the bottom left edge, the furthest fringe of the anarchist left. I would have thought there would be more people in the same region. Precisely 2 sigma away from median, which shows how left and libertarian this forum is.

Did you get -10 for both? :p

Those standard deviation ellipses are just getting flatter and flatter, confirming the fact that this forum is overwhelmingly libertarian and mostly left-wing.

Notice that the libertarian trend is much stronger than the left-wing trend. Consider these facts:

1. As of now, we have only 10 authoritarians.
2. But we do have 24 economic liberals ("right-wingers").

And while some people have been wondering why the authoritarian-right is so empty, I'm wondering why the authoritarian-left is even emptier... I mean, so far we have only 4 authoritarian leftists, and they're all pretty close to either the center or the x-axis.

O Stalin, where art thou?

The collectivist-fascists seem to be in short supply everywhere. Yet this trend is still very different from what I've seen elsewhere: In some groups, the regression between social and economic liberty is linear; there are only authoritan capitalists and liberal communists, and the upper left and lower right are empty. Around here, the lower right is far more populated than the upper right, although the concentration in the lower left quadrant is similar.

Nice map. I'm surprised that I am so 'right' with respect to majority.


---
Economic Left/Right: 5.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.56

Economic Left/Right: -4.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.08

It's just a testament to this site that I'm more of a social libertarian than I was a year ago by a significant amount.

Edit: Incidentally, I'm due south of the mean value, just outside sigma=1. Pretty shocking. I figured we had a bit more varied spread of political views on here, as far as the authoritarians go.

Edit: Incidentally, I'm due south of the mean value, just outside sigma=1. Pretty shocking. I figured we had a bit more varied spread of political views on here, as far as the authoritarians go.

Why?

A slightly cleaned version of the application (which I haven't had time to test again, alas) is now available for download (http://ermarian.net/downloads/php/compass-0.1.tar.gz). Installation instructions are included.

Also, the graphics are generated by the phpPlot (http://ermarian.net/downloads/php/phpplot) library, which has to be downloaded separately.

Swiped.

I may rewrite it in a real programming language for perl practice.

Sel Appa. tar.gz is the proper format - it's open source, interpreters are available for everything. I don't have to go find a new program to handle .zip files, worry about anything like that. Every Linux or Mac user here would be able to open it straight away, not counting all the Cygwin using Windows guys.

Did you get -10 for both? :p

Almost. -9.88, -9.21.

Why?

Wishful thinking, I guess. We need a good spread of political beliefs and ideologies in order for this site to function properly.

Swiped.
I may rewrite it in a real programming language for perl practice.


I protest. :P By all sensible definitions, PHP is a real programming language - and the code you produce in it isn't even particularly dirty as long as it's not the first language you learned (admittedly, it tends to make people lazy and careless). Like most interpreted languages, its efficiency sucks when you need to manipulate large amounts of data in what would normally be low-level, fast algorithms. But it certainly doesn't need to hide from perl. ;)

Wishful thinking, I guess. We need a good spread of political beliefs and ideologies in order for this site to function properly.

I agree. I just don't expect it to happen, given the demographics of internet forum-goers.

I protest. :P By all sensible definitions, PHP is a real programming language - and the code you produce in it isn't even particularly dirty as long as it's not the first language you learned (admittedly, it tends to make people lazy and careless). Like most interpreted languages, its efficiency sucks when you need to manipulate large amounts of data in what would normally be low-level, fast algorithms. But it certainly doesn't need to hide from perl. ;)

I know, I'm just being harsh on PHP for fun.

Mind you, like I said, I'm a Schemer by heart, so every other language I've seen seems unnecessarily restricting and long-winded.

(define fac (lambda (n) (if (= n 0) 1 (* n (fac (- n 1)))))

Or as pseudocode directly showing it:

define factorial: if n = 0, return 1. Else, multiply n by factorial (n - 1)

Beat that in any other programming language for simple and sensible. :P

I agree. I just don't expect it to happen, given the demographics of internet forum-goers.

I suppose you're right about that. I also wish that we'd stop constantly labeling people trolls. Sure, there are trolls, but this is a political debate forum. If you label everyone with a controversial opinion a troll, the debate breaks down to name calling.

I know, I'm just being harsh on PHP for fun.

Mind you, like I said, I'm a Schemer by heart, so every other language I've seen seems unnecessarily restricting and long-winded.

(define fac (lambda (n) (if (= n 0) 1 (* n (fac (- n 1)))))

Or as pseudocode directly showing it:

define factorial: if n = 0, return 1. Else, multiply n by factorial (n - 1)

Beat that in any other programming language for simple and sensible. :P

In reverse polish notation is hilarious code. Talk like Yoda you do. :D

wow, strange that we all seem to have similar view points, but i assume most live in a country with a polar opposite political stand. does that say something about society or just this network?

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: 0.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.82

wow, strange that we all seem to have similar view points, but i assume most live in a country with a polar opposite political stand. does that say something about society or just this network?

It just means that the internet is a dangerous and subversive place. This sort of unpatriotism wouldn't be allowed if good old Joseph McCarthy were still alive!

In reverse polish notation is hilarious code. Talk like Yoda you do. :D

Learn your alternative notation names please, that's only polish notation.

It does lead to interesting word order though, especially if you apply it to normal sentences.

hmm i've become slightly less left wing, it would seem...
AGAIN?! Dude, you're starting to scare me... <<

AGAIN?! Dude, you're starting to scare me... <<

Yeah, because a person becoming slightly less extreme in their political views is so frightening.

If I hadn't taken my boots off before sitting at the computer, I'd totally be shaking in them.

Yeah, because a person becoming slightly less extreme in their political views is so frightening.

If I hadn't taken my boots off before sitting at the computer, I'd totally be shaking in them.
Not a person, per se, just PM. And it's not like those views were especially "extreme" to begin with.

I suppose you're right about that. I also wish that we'd stop constantly labeling people trolls. Sure, there are trolls, but this is a political debate forum. If you label everyone with a controversial opinion a troll, the debate breaks down to name calling.

Ain't that the truth.

I find it frightening that the ideologies I most oppose are those that dominate NS. Oh well. Third most Authoritarian! But, to be honest with you, I don't know if I'd even want to be has high as FreedomAndGlory... but we authoritarian right-winger chaps need to stick together. *nods*

I can at least be glad there are no high Authoritarian Leftists around here.

wow, strange that we all seem to have similar view points, but i assume most live in a country with a polar opposite political stand. does that say something about society or just this network?

This forum actually has a filter that sifts out most conservative thoughts. For example:

I believe that the ****-market is a good thing.
It is necessary for the government to ***** freedoms if it means increasing national security.
Go George W. ****!

See what I mean? That's why I have to pretend to be liberal, otherwise I would never be able to post here.

Not a person, per se, just PM. And it's not like those views were especially "extreme" to begin with.

Not in relation to the average for NSG, perhaps. In relation to the center point of the political compass, yes.

See what I mean? That's why I have to pretend to be liberal, otherwise I would never be able to post here.

Ain't that the truth.

Well, I guess right now I fall closest to the center.

Nice.

What? I'm still the most authoritarian? BWAHAHAHAA-HAARH...

Oh look, I'm yet another left-leaning centrist. I'm so special.

(I recall taking the test once in the past and coming out with a score of something like -8.00 on the social, 1.25 on economic. Times have changed, I guess.)

me special, but lonely, out there all on my own :(

w007! I'm the only leftist more than two sigma from median! Yay! I'm an outlier!

Economic Left/Right: -3.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.15

Was hoping for a Zero Zero,... but then again, I still have to wash out my traditional sense and burn out my passion.

Economic Left/Right: 10.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.31

I'm still the most socially liberal? wow.

Economic Left/Right: -4.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.03

Bloody hell, compared to some of you lot I'm a right wing despot!

Ya'll notice where MTAE fits in on the listing? Waaay up there in Stalin territory.


Anyone else notice this (http://www.politicalcompass.org/usprimaries2008)? No wonder I hate American politics, I wouldn't vote for any of them. Only 2 of them are in the same quadrant of the map as me. Notice where the supposed "Libertarian" Ron Paul fits in?

Economic Left/Right: -0.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.41

I'm a bit surprised -- being directly opposite the quadrant I'd thought I'd end up in -- but meh. Most centrist poster to date.

Anyone else notice this (http://www.politicalcompass.org/usprimaries2008)? No wonder I hate American politics, I wouldn't vote for any of them. Only 2 of them are in the same quadrant of the map as me. Notice where the supposed "Libertarian" Ron Paul fits in?

Yeah, seriously. Robert Schumann '08 (http://www.politicalcompass.org/composers).

*starts designing campaign posters featuring idyllic scenes from childhood, and butterflies, and a merry peasant...*

I'm still the most socially liberal? wow.

I'm only .56 away! I shall catch you yet! :p

Oh look, I'm yet another left-leaning centrist. I'm so special.

(I recall taking the test once in the past and coming out with a score of something like -8.00 on the social, 1.25 on economic. Times have changed, I guess.)

yay, czardas!! :fluffle: :fluffle:

:pAnd I just added another left-leaning centrist onto the map....
Economic Left/Right: -5.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.67

Take pride. Before I came here I was like -.000000012, and -4.
Youve turned me commie;)

No wonder this election sucks for me i have NO canidates in my lower right quadrent.

Freedom and Glory isn't all that much into freedom.

Freedom and Glory isn't all that much into freedom.

Freedom for him and his cronies, that is :p

Wooo, I'm well and truely in the Leftist clump (around -7.5 for both).

And if the goal was to see if NSG was lefty or righty... well, it's pretty obvious.

And if the goal was to see if NSG was lefty or righty... well, it's pretty obvious.

a better question is why has it been so consistently and overwhelmingly left each time we've done this, stretching all the way back to the first time i graphed it all out in like 2003 or 2004.

the distribution looks almost identical today as it has each time, and yet the actual people have changed significantly (as far as anyone can tell, at least). hypotheses?

a better question is why has it been so consistently and overwhelmingly left each time we've done this, stretching all the way back to the first time i graphed it all out in like 2003 or 2004.

the distribution looks almost identical today as it has each time, and yet the actual people have changed significantly (as far as anyone can tell, at least). hypotheses?

Well, ignorant people do not last long on NSG. They usually give up pretty quickly, or they wisen up. This tends to eliminate authoritarians fairly quickly. Young people on the internet, which make up a bulk of this forum's population, are overwhelmingly left of center.

Plus, you have a bunch of very vocal radical leftists who tend to pull people in their direction.

Economic Left/Right: -5.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.05

Economic Left/Right: 6.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.95

Well, ignorant people do not last long on NSG. They usually give up pretty quickly, or they wisen up. This tends to eliminate authoritarians fairly quickly.

though this certainly doesn't have to be the case - there are other online forums where the right-wingers are able to resist all attempts at enlightenment by sheer force of numbers.

Young people on the internet, which make up a bulk of this forum's population, are overwhelmingly left of center.

i wonder how we would look compared to a random sample of, for example, myspace users...

Plus, you have a bunch of very vocal radical leftists who tend to pull people in their direction.

you know, that in particular has always amazed me. way back when i first showed up there were already a couple vocal and intelligent anarchists running around. different ones than we have now, as far as i am aware too. we are way disproportionate here, and i still haven't figured out why.

though this certainly doesn't have to be the case - there are other online forums where the right-wingers are able to resist all attempts at enlightenment by sheer force of numbers.



i wonder how we would look compared to a random sample of, for example, myspace users...



you know, that in particular has always amazed me. way back when i first showed up there were already a couple vocal and intelligent anarchists running around. different ones than we have now, as far as i am aware too. we are way disproportionate here, and i still haven't figured out why.
I think it's self-sustaining, in a way.
Almost every other message board or forum you come across, even if it's just for computer help or something, is full of incredibly obnoxious people and their posts. The comment sections on sites like Youtube or IMDb are like a look into the abyss.

Here, people are mostly quite intelligent, post in actual language as opposed to text message speak and smilies, there are no garish colors and avatars which lends the whole thing a serious look, the obnoxious jerks are certainly there but they're outweighed by the sheer number of bearable posters, the tone is rarely mean and abusive, and the majority of posters is not politically far-right. Stuff like that attracts more people like that. Which in turn keep the place like that.

So all it needed was a start and I guess the original demographic make-up just happened.
Maybe Jennifer Government is a book that attracted mainly politically left people (wouldn't know, haven't read it), maybe the Nationstates "game" is too uneventful for the gun smiley crowd, maybe it simply just happened.

I think it's self-sustaining, in a way.
Almost every other message board or forum you come across, even if it's just for computer help or something, is full of incredibly obnoxious people and their posts. The comment sections on sites like Youtube or IMDb are like a look into the abyss.

Here, people are mostly quite intelligent, post in actual language as opposed to text message speak and smilies, there are no garish colors and avatars which lends the whole thing a serious look, the obnoxious jerks are certainly there but they're outweighed by the sheer number of bearable posters, the tone is rarely mean and abusive, and the majority of posters is not politically far-right. Stuff like that attracts more people like that. Which in turn keep the place like that.

So all it needed was a start and I guess the original demographic make-up just happened.
Maybe Jennifer Government is a book that attracted mainly politically left people (wouldn't know, haven't read it), maybe the Nationstates "game" is too uneventful for the gun smiley crowd, maybe it simply just happened.

i would agree with the first bit, and strongly agree with that last bit. a user only comes to NSG after joining NationStates and probably actually sticking with it for a few days. the intelligence level is probably (at a guess) boosted at this point, considering that the game is - in fact - dull as shite (or after 3 or 4 years it is, at least). to stay involved (and, really, to play in the first place) the player probably has to already have an interest in politics and/or philosophy, which again most likely raises the bar for smart-y-ness.

then there's the assumption that left wingers tend to be idealists, and right-wingers have a tendancy towards realism as a doctrine. if the notion of creating and running your own nation in your own way isn't idealist, i don't know what is. obviously that's not to say only idealists or only left-wingers will be attracted to the game, but the premise does lean toward idealism, which in turn (possibly) brings more left-wingers to the game and forums.

I'd say it has more to do with the weeble and bob ads....

Here are my thoughts:

Under the assumption that most of the NS users are from the United States, my guess would be that it's because many of them (such as myself) finally got pissed off at the way things were running in that country. I think many of them thought, "Hey! I can do a better job than that hick!" and came here.

And you know what? Probably all of them were right.

oops, in there twice. Farther left than ruffy.

a better question is why has it been so consistently and overwhelmingly left each time we've done this, stretching all the way back to the first time i graphed it all out in like 2003 or 2004.

the distribution looks almost identical today as it has each time, and yet the actual people have changed significantly (as far as anyone can tell, at least). hypotheses?


I have no hypothesis, but I can support your observation for the group being a left of the left group. The Republican Primaries (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=544829)thread has Ron Paul with a 16% lead over all other candidates at a 36.5% of the total vote ... But Ron Paul in the real world has only 4.3% of the popular national vote (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/republican_presidential_nomination-192.html).

I think it's self-sustaining, in a way.
Almost every other message board or forum you come across, even if it's just for computer help or something, is full of incredibly obnoxious people and their posts. The comment sections on sites like Youtube or IMDb are like a look into the abyss.

Here, people are mostly quite intelligent, post in actual language as opposed to text message speak and smilies, there are no garish colors and avatars which lends the whole thing a serious look, the obnoxious jerks are certainly there but they're outweighed by the sheer number of bearable posters, the tone is rarely mean and abusive, and the majority of posters is not politically far-right. Stuff like that attracts more people like that. Which in turn keep the place like that.

its also self-sustaining in at least one other way - have you seen what we do to, for example, creationists? that'd probably be intimidating as fuck.

I think it's self-sustaining, in a way.
Almost every other message board or forum you come across, even if it's just for computer help or something, is full of incredibly obnoxious people and their posts. The comment sections on sites like Youtube or IMDb are like a look into the abyss.

Here, people are mostly quite intelligent, post in actual language as opposed to text message speak and smilies, there are no garish colors and avatars which lends the whole thing a serious look, the obnoxious jerks are certainly there but they're outweighed by the sheer number of bearable posters, the tone is rarely mean and abusive, and the majority of posters is not politically far-right. Stuff like that attracts more people like that. Which in turn keep the place like that.

This. We are a site of lawyers, physicists, economists, accountants, computer programmers, biology researchers, etc. Most of our heavy debaters are above 20, and those that aren't are often either quick to learn, quick to spam (and I do not say this as if it is a bad thing), quick to socialize, or relegated to the troll-pit for unoriginal and often reactionary ideas.

We are also sustained by NS itself, a site designed for those with an interest in nation-building that does not have the added joy of being able to commit wholesale slaughter on opponents. It is a site for cultivators, rather than gamers.

I have no hypothesis, but I can support your observation for the group being a left of the left group. The Republican Primaries (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=544829)thread has Ron Paul with a 16% lead over all other candidates at a 36.5% of the total vote ... But Ron Paul in the real world has only 4.3% of the popular national vote (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/republican_presidential_nomination-192.html).

Except that libertarians are generally socially left, economically right, while the average Generalite is socially left, economically left.

Except that libertarians are generally socially left, economically right, while the average Generalite is socially left, economically left.

but our average right-winger is at least trending towards libertarianism. the liberts are way disproportionate to their actual ranks in society. these nsg compass charts always seem to give us a single left and down trend on the left side of the origin, and two different (and much fuzzier) right wing trends - one right and upward, and the other right and less steeply downward, with the latter typically being more heavily populated.

I used to be on the left side of the economic axis. Thanks in part to NSG, I moved back to the right.

Damn, I was just a bit off center into left, libertarian box. I guess that means I can't be pegged to one group or another. However I do consider myself conservative.

Do you believe in controls on corporations?

One of the limitations of the test, as much as I like it overall, is that if you're critical of corporations in any significant capacity, it puts you at least a little on the left.

Do you believe in controls on corporations?

One of the limitations of the test, as much as I like it overall, is that if you're critical of corporations in any significant capacity, it puts you at least a little on the left.

I'm critical of corporations, in fact I think they should be done away with entirely, but it didn't put me on the left...

I'm critical of corporations, in fact I think they should be done away with entirely, but it didn't put me on the left...

Small business, laissez-faire conservative?

Small business, laissez-faire conservative?

Pretty much. Though to be fair, the reason I'm so close to the center economically is probably due in large part to my views on corporations.

-2.25 econ
-5.74 soc

I've moved a bit more right in terms of economics...not sure how I feel about that.
Social, I still think I'm more liberal than the test shows...
*shrug*

From this latest image, I can see that there are no NSGer who believe in authoritarian communism.

-10, -10.

Sorry to pull the average even farther leftward and downward, heh.

In actuality I'm not even a socialist, much less an anarchist. The test measures political values over policies, however, and I value equality and freedom a whole lot.

I think authoritarian leftism isn't represented because not many governments practice it anymore. What I mean is, governments are usually on the authoritarian side, and conservatives tend to side close to the government position. Anarchists, libertarians, even liberals and social democrats generally won't move from their economic spot, but conservatives, at least the vast majority of conservative followers, will be pretty ok with whatever the government is doing.

This may mean that there's an opportunity for an authoritarian leftist to step up into authoritarian positions, provided they appeal to economics for the dissatisfied, unrepresented lower left square, and conservative themes for, um, conservatives, and they'd have it made (Chavez). At least initially, until they pissed off one group or another, the only group that wouldn't follow this leader would be the libertarians.

Oh and all the "I'm teh most [fill in ideological measure here]!" talk has to stop. There's no value in being more left than someone else, for instance. you end up where you end up cause that's the position that you value, so, however big or small your number is doesn't really matter, be proud of your exact spot.

I only do it jokingly.

Well, I regraphed, and I've moved a bit more. Now at -9, -9 ish

I'll catch you yet, Trot!

Well, I regraphed, and I've moved a bit more. Now at -9, -9 ish

I'll catch you yet, Trot!

Over my dead body!

Over my dead body!

That can be arranged... :D

Interesting, I moved to bottom right. Last time I was in the bottom left, as are most NSGers, apparently.

Except that libertarians are generally socially left, economically right, while the average Generalite is socially left, economically left.
There is a far greater number of libertarians here than there are authoritarians (socially right, economically left).

In actuality I'm not even a socialist, much less an anarchist. The test measures political values over policies, however, and I value equality and freedom a whole lot.
I still don't understand that. Freedom and equality are usually at odds with each other.

Regadless, you're right about the test. I score more socially centrist than I think I should because the test thinks I want the government to act on all of the preferences I state. Or that I'm assigning values to words like savage or civilized.

Epic. I'm the most emo :D
I knew it.

. . .

I still don't understand that. Freedom and equality are usually at odds with each other.

only in crazy libert-speak. in reality, you can't have one without the other. if your 'freedom' leads to inequality, your 'freedom' is tyranny. likewise, if your 'equality' leads to tyranny, then your 'equality' is inequality. the only way it could be otherwise is if wealth and access to resources were not intimately related to power. but they are and they must be, and this can only be even vaguely mitigated by efforts to make sure that there is at least a baseline below which no one may ever fall.

only in crazy libert-speak. in reality, you can't have one without the other. if your 'freedom' leads to inequality, your 'freedom' is tyranny. likewise, if your 'equality' leads to tyranny, then your 'equality' is inequality. the only way it could be otherwise is if wealth and access to resources were not intimately related to power. but they are and they must be, and this can only be even vaguely mitigated by efforts to make sure that there is at least a baseline below which no one may ever fall.

Actually I believe that equality, as in socialism, has a much deeper meaning than the traditional liberal individualist conception of 'freedom'. I believe this goes to the saying, 'in need, freedom is latent', that is to mean that once a group gets control over the means of production, the people are immediately beholden to them because they have the 'needs' of the populace, and can thus use it to exploit and drive prices up and enrich themselves at the cost of the common interest.

Socialist freedom, that is to say human interdependence (group), and not liberal independence (individual), is more meaningful because it recognizes the innate interdependence of humanity, in our communities we all individually produce goods to exchange for goods we need, socialism is just making sure this social exchange is not exploited by those who want to get a better deal than everyone else, but making sure exchange is equal through building socialist institutions. Socialist freedom is therefore 'freedom from need' and is a profoundly community-centered view, while liberal freedom only gives freedom on an individual level and thus encourages people to use their freedom to exploit others for their own personal profit, this is because when you only give merit to the individual then the community is neglected.

For example, it would be in the interests of 1 individual to kill everyone in his community so he individually has all the wealth, that would be applauded as a display of rugged individualism. Individualism in reality is a horrible ideal.

only in crazy libert-speak. in reality, you can't have one without the other. if your 'freedom' leads to inequality, your 'freedom' is tyranny. likewise, if your 'equality' leads to tyranny, then your 'equality' is inequality. the only way it could be otherwise is if wealth and access to resources were not intimately related to power. but they are and they must be, and this can only be even vaguely mitigated by efforts to make sure that there is at least a baseline below which no one may ever fall.
Freedom necessarily leads to inequality because people are free to make really bad decisions.

Freedom necessarily leads to inequality because people are free to make really bad decisions.
And other people exploit those bad decisions for personal gain, thus why a vanguard state is needed to mandate equality.

And other people exploit those bad decisions for personal gain, thus why a vanguard state is needed to mandate equality.
At the expense of freedom. Hence, the two are incompatible.

At the expense of freedom. Hence, the two are incompatible.

You should read my post, you're definition of 'freedom' is the liberal one, mine is not, liberal 'freedom' purports the 'right' of the rich not to be taxed even if it means the poor don't get the necessities of life. Liberal individualism is therefore a recipe for elitism and an economic oligarchy of exploitation. True freedom is the freedom from people controlling the needs (productive forces) of others.

I dont know how I did it. I answered the questions truthfully but I scored as a Leftist Libertarian. I always thought of myself as a rightist or centrist at worst. :confused: *goes into an identity crises*

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.51

Freedom necessarily leads to inequality because people are free to make really bad decisions.

which then necessarily leads to tyranny.

or we could try severing the link between making a bad decision and being put into a position of subjugation. we make decisions together, we rise and fall together. and we make decisions separately, we provide both a floor which we cannot fall below, and a ceiling above which no one may climb without bringing everyone up along with them.

I dont know how I did it. I answered the questions truthfully but I scored as a Leftist Libertarian. I always thought of myself as a rightist or centrist at worst. :confused: *goes into an identity crises*

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.51

i've long thought that the political compass drags people at the margins a few points left and down. i'm not sure if this is in the nature of the test's scoring, or how they centered it, or just the fact that being left and down sounds so much nicer unless you have already committed certain ideological positions for other reasons.

i've long thought that the political compass drags people at the margins a few points left and down. i'm not sure if this is in the nature of the test's scoring, or how they centered it, or just the fact that being left and down sounds so much nicer unless you have already committed certain ideological positions for other reasons.

With a nick like that, of course you will think that being left and down sounds so much nicer. :p

Hmm...Leftist Libertarian.

Maybe it has to do with my belief that all should think for themselves and that those who don't don't deserve human life?

Be happy I'm not the Supreme Ruler of the World - almost every would be dead in that case.

Left-wing Libertarianism is just as much of a self-contradictory standpoint as 'market socialism', the most obvious point being 'do you wish to give people the liberty to exploit others and thus put an end to their 'freedom from need'? I posed this question above and yet it hasn't been answered yet. Their is simply no way that a true Marxist (one who uses material dialectics) can justify libertarianism in contradictive socialism, because naturally because communism hasn't been achieved and society is still in contradiction the 'libertarianism' will become reactionary and elitist. The same is true of 'left internationalism', true internationalism can only be achieved when communism is achieved and class barriers destroyed, trying to do otherwise (liberty or internationalism) is putting the cart before the horse. Inevitably any such concepts will become reactionary, internationalism will become ultranationalism, libertarianism will become elitism and oligarchy. All the silly teenage Utopian liberal 'socialists' should seriously read this: http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/index.htm

Also, please re-read Marx, I swear these new 'leftists' have never even read it.

I still don't understand that. Freedom and equality are usually at odds with each other.

Regadless, you're right about the test. I score more socially centrist than I think I should because the test thinks I want the government to act on all of the preferences I state. Or that I'm assigning values to words like savage or civilized.

Eureka explained it well. A simpler way would be to say that for the 'libertarian socialist,' it must be possible for everyone to live (socialist), and that life for every individual must be worth living (libertarian).

Eureka explained it well. A simpler way would be to say that for the 'libertarian socialist,' it must be possible for everyone to live (socialist), and that life for every individual must be worth living (libertarian).

Liberalism denies the community in the name of the individual; socialism reasserts the rights of the community as expressing the real essence of the individual. That is to say; the true center of humanity is an interdependent socialism, individualism is ethically self-contradictory in many ways, but the most important is that either it acknowledges a minor role for the community or it ignores it completely, on the first charge it contradicts it's own logic of the superiority of the individual, on the second it points out it's own failure in failing to acknowledge the innate communitarianism of humanity.

Human solidarity friends, without which we wouldn't be on this forum discussing this in a common language in a common forum.

And other people exploit those bad decisions for personal gain, thus why a vanguard state is needed to mandate equality.

yes, because we all know that nothing could possibly go wrong with a plan like that. the state has always shown itself to be such a trustworthy holder of power.

yes, because we all know that nothing could possibly go wrong with a plan like that. the state has always shown itself to be such a trustworthy holder of power.

Neither states nor individuals have shown themselves to be trustworthy holders of power. But I repeat myself.

the most obvious point being 'do you wish to give people the liberty to exploit others and thus put an end to their 'freedom from need'?

So, as libertarians who value liberty, do we wish to let some people have the "liberty" to deny liberty to others?

Obviously not. That's the whole point.

So, as libertarians who value liberty, do we wish to let some people have the "liberty" to deny liberty to others?

Obviously not. That's the whole point.
But how do you purport to stop individuals from exploiting others without such a state? I have yet to see a response to my 'in need, freedom is latent' position, do libertarians support the liberty of a minority of individuals to control the economic needs of the majority of the population, that being the means of production? Please answer this question.

Liberalism denies the community in the name of the individual; socialism reasserts the rights of the community as expressing the real essence of the individual. That is to say; the true center of humanity is an interdependent socialism, individualism is ethically self-contradictory in many ways, but the most important is that either it acknowledges a minor role for the community or it ignores it completely, on the first charge it contradicts it's own logic of the superiority of the individual, on the second it points out it's own failure in failing to acknowledge the innate communitarianism of humanity.

Human solidarity friends, without which we wouldn't be on this forum discussing this in a common language in a common forum.

libertarianism in the sense that the test uses it; that of permission to do stuff. I'm not talking about the ideology when i say libertarianism. Don't forget that dirty communist Noam Chomsky describes himself as a libertarian socialist.

yes, because we all know that nothing could possibly go wrong with a plan like that. the state has always shown itself to be such a trustworthy holder of power.
Not sure what you are getting at here friend, my point is that many Libertarians (and indeed Minarchists) purport either to impose their own 'total freedom' in contradiction, that is they propose overnight to impose a perfect free society without regard to the social contradictions in society which would ensure such 'freedom' would indeed become reactionary and the antithesis of what it was meant for, I explain this in my big post on the last page. Or they propose to limit this freedom (temporarily we are to believe) with a 'limited' state, this is of course ethically self-contradictory with libertarianism because in line with this ideal if I were to set up a rival government then the libertarian government would either have to dissolve or force me to dissolve mine, you see the contradiction?

You can't have freedom straight away, this is because of the inherent contradictions in society would ensure this freedom would become an oligarchy or the people would turn to some kind of group offering them order, I really don't think I have to go into this more.

Now if I am to believe from you're username, you might at least have a rudimentary understanding of material dialectics? If so you should know the concepts of Contradiction in Socialism (transition) and Criticism and Self Criticism. In short, Marxism purports the working class setting up their own leadership (socialism) which will either end (through class struggle) in communism or the contradictive elements taking over, thus the process of aggravating the class struggle under socialism.

Now from you're post it seemed you were subtly referring to Stalin or other Trotskyist 'teenage utopianism', If so I will gladly defend Stalin's record and point out falsehoods if you wish.

Perhaps a year or more ago, I saw an effort here to survey the political landscape of Nationstates General through the use of the Political Compass (http://www.politicalcompass.org). The results were plotted on an image, which was simply magnificent in size (and was unbelievably full).

This image was probably (hopefully) created by a program, but I do remember that it wasn't dynamic. It had to be updated with new data from the threads.

A while ago, I had occasion to write a rudimentary graphical plotting utility in PHP, which I immediately tried out by combining it with a database-driven script for storing Compass results and mapping them. The tool has been well-received on the regional boards of The North Pacific, so I guess it would be interesting to test it with a larger audience.

--

Here's how it works:

1. Take the PC test (http://www.politicalcompass.org) or recall your last scores if they're only a few months back.
2. Enter your coordinates in the web form. (http://embassy.ermarian.net/services/compass/form/7414d8c5) You may enter or leave out your name as you wish.
3. The image below now has a new point.

http://embassy.ermarian.net/services/compass/map/7414d8c5?img=1&width=400 (http://embassy.ermarian.net/services/compass/map/7414d8c5)
(click to enlarge) (http://embassy.ermarian.net/services/compass/map/7414d8c5)
(click to enlarge to 2000x2000, if it's really cluttered) (http://embassy.ermarian.net/services/compass/map/7414d8c5?img=1&width=2000)

(No ballot-stuffing please. We are not trying to demonstrate a point or prove NS as fundamentally liberal or conservative. This is an experiment.)

Btw, looking at the graph, can we please please please arrange a meeting of
reasonstanople and FreedomAndGlory??? :D

But how do you purport to stop individuals from exploiting others without such a state?

Because we don't make the assumption that centralized hierarchical structures are the best manifestation of public power.

I have yet to see a response to my 'in need, freedom is latent' position, do libertarians support the liberty of a minority of individuals to control the economic needs of the majority of the population, that being the means of production?

Obviously not.

That is why we are libertarian socialists.

Is there any chance I could be moved from Social -2.51 to -4.26?

Huh. Looks like I've moved towards the center in the last few months.

Because we don't make the assumption that centralized hierarchical structures are the best manifestation of public power.

Well, how are you going to do it? Ask everyone not to exploit people?:rolleyes: Typical airy-fairy liberal tripe. In the socialist contradictive period (read my big post on this) a coersive state is needed until communism is achieved and the contradictions in society corrected. 'Libertarian socialism' simply does not make sense because Marxist-Leninist theory (which most of these nuts have not read) states quite clearly that total freedom cannot work in the statist socialist period of contradiction, it would simply result in oligarchy or other forms of private ownership.


Obviously not.

That is why we are libertarian socialists.
Yeah and as I have pointed out quite clearly in many posts, 'libertarian socialism' is ethically self-contradictory, from my experience those who espouse it are just antifa thugs, militant minorities or other liberal bourgeoisie elements.

The test measures political values over policie.

I think that's terribly important to keep in mind.

I also think that many of the questions are awkwardly worded, but overall, I still like the test.

And I'm reasonably happy with my -4.6/-7.2 score, too, and it looks like I'm in good enough company so far.

Freedom and equality are usually at odds with each other.

Correct. As Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn observed:

"Nature" (i.e., the absence of human intervention) is anything but egalitarian; if we want to establish a complete plain we have to blast the mountains away and fill the valleys; equality, thus presupposes the continuous intervention of force which, as a principle, is opposed to freedom. Liberty and equality are in essence contradictory.

Well, how are you going to do it? Ask everyone not to exploit people?

No. Take their power away from them. But don't put it in the hands of a different ruling class, rather directly in the hands of the people.

In the socialist contradictive period (read my big post on this) a coersive state is needed until communism is achieved and the contradictions in society corrected.

Because you say so?

'Libertarian socialism' simply does not make sense because Marxist-Leninist theory (which most of these nuts have not read) states quite clearly that total freedom cannot work in the statist socialist period of contradiction, it would simply result in oligarchy or other forms of private ownership.

I'm sorry... because Lenin says so.

:rolleyes:

Yeah and as I have pointed out quite clearly in many posts, 'libertarian socialism' is ethically self-contradictory

You quite obviously don't have a clue about what it advocates.

from my experience those who espouse it are just antifa thugs, militant minorities or other liberal bourgeoisie elements.

Oh, I forgot about your right-wing reactionary stances on social questions, fascist.

No wonder you don't like libertarian socialists. We have always (well, usually) believed in freedom, justice, and equality for everyone... but when it comes down to it (whatever rhetoric you sometimes parrot) you are only interested in freedom, justice, and equality for people you like.

And don't distract this point by ranting about the suppression of the "bourgeoisie." That's just one particular minority, as you surely know. There are others.

I'm sorry... because Lenin says so.

:rolleyes:

LOL

which then necessarily leads to tyranny.

or we could try severing the link between making a bad decision and being put into a position of subjugation. we make decisions together, we rise and fall together. and we make decisions separately, we provide both a floor which we cannot fall below, and a ceiling above which no one may climb without bringing everyone up along with them.
But who chooses the floor and ceiling? If it's the group, dissenters are necessariliy disenfranchised.

Without the floor and ceiling, but a free society, loss of power and subjugation become whilly the result of choices, and thus fair.

But how do you purport to stop individuals from exploiting others without such a state?
Is exploitation necessarily bad? I can exploit natural resources. I can exploit cheap labour. Exploit is a value-neutral term.
I have yet to see a response to my 'in need, freedom is latent' position, do libertarians support the liberty of a minority of individuals to control the economic needs of the majority of the population, that being the means of production?
Certainly, because that control was gained through the free choice and voluntary exchange of those involved.