NationStates Jolt Archive

how do we build a world without a ruling class?

empire falls (http://youtube.com/watch?v=tcRWnr5lL-k) isn't just a town name in a book with a snappy title. (have no idea of the plot)

I believe that would require the elimination of money and government. Maybe total anarchy?

Yeah I have the DVD of it, it's a political musical documentary if you can believe that, it's about the guy in the suit coming into the world and trying to join the 'American Ruling Class', it's actually one of the best presentations I have seen, it was created I believe by a Marxist I believe.

by making access to power easier--reforming the campaign finance laws maybe-- we can have rulers but no set ruling class.

maybe

kinda

In an ideal world, the US president has a boss. 300 million bosses, to be exact.

just nuke the shit out of everything

just nuke the shit out of everything

:eek:

It's films like the American Ruling Class that make terrorism an attractive option.

I'm torn...


I appreciate and enjoy the technology I have at my beck and call.. but I know I can do without it .. and that this technology will eventually bring destruction. .. one way or the other. It's not the technologies fault .. it is man. I long for a day when it was trade.... hides for sugar etc. But I do love mah running water.. I can do without electricity .. but I want my faucets.. easily done.. this was going on in Roman times.. no big deal. I want the wilderness to stay wilderness. Some people say there are too many people .. I'm not sure about that. I think there is just too many accomodations for these people.. because we are all living off this fake ass paper money.

Credit.. another devil in our midst. It can make you or break you.. but either way it is designed to keep your ass in debt. Why aren't middle schoolers taught about credit? Is this not a major subject in adulthood? IMO there should be extensive classes on this subject. IIRC more that 70% of Americna have bad credit. You should be taught how the hell not to wound up in that 70%. Actually you should be taught how to only use it to your advantage .. and leave it the hell alone after that.

.. pause

I had two major credit cards by the time I was 17 (my first at 15). At&T Visa and At&T Master Card.. Universals. I blew them up and paid religiously about 10 years. Then .. bam I'm laid off. It was then I realized I didn't know much of anything about credit. No .. it was not At&T's fault.. could it be my parents? Maybe when I was under age.. but no it wasn't theres (they were foolish anyway).. I should have been taught all about it in school... since I was getting these cards while still there. Teach me something that makes a freakin difference. Teach me what will happen if I screw my credit up! I took business and marketing classes in high school and never was told shit about credit.

Meh... I'm fine.. I will do regardless. But it should be taught in school.. starting in middle school.

Essentially I'd have to say rule of law, strongly enforced by a non-politicised, impartial judiciary system, would be the best bet for an equal society.

Yet the fact is that there's no watertight system to ensure either the law is fair or the judiciary is fair - or the means to make both immune to abuse through technicalities.

Ultimately, it will take education being ripped apart and reformed to ensure we're equally equipped, not in English or Maths per se (though of course these remain valuable), but in the ability to know our rights.

In my more society-structure change moments, I feel that all children should be brought up by the community, unaware of who their parents are so that all adults are responsible for the welfare of the whole as opposed to individuals but that's a little futuristic and subject to totalitarianism for my liking.

All in all, we muddle along as best we see fit, to give everyone the opportunity to rise and fall works in its own shambled-together way.

how do we build a world without a ruling class?

By making the ruling class equal to everyone else. If there is legislation, there are legislators - people in positions of authority. But when that position is minimized to the equivalent of an office job, where it's their job to stamp the paper without making a decision on which stamp to use, then you have no effective ruling class.

It's really weird how many people I encounter who don't know that the USA operates under a Republic, not a Democracy. I guess they don't teach that distinction in school. The fact of the matter is that Democracy is very close to Communism, but has little or nothing to do with economics. Everyone is free to succeed or fail.

But when someone DOES succeed, that places them above those who have failed. And a ruling class emerges. So, to answer your question - you take control of, and abolish, economics. Every job pays the same wages. Everyone is issued a house of the same size and type. Everyone is given the same kind of car. So on and so forth.

But that's just for one country. Even if you communise an entire nation, it could still be a "ruling class" on the world scale. And so you must unite every nation under a single banner, and then issue everyone the same as in the original nation.

In short, a fully realised communal system. You know, one where the elders don't keep a stash of cheesey poofs and women of negotiable affection in the back.


---


Really, though... Minimizing the window of personal wealth one can be in (so there is very little difference between the lower, middle, and upper classes) is more sensical as a national leader and is more pleasant for a citizen of that nation.

There's nothing implicitly wrong with a "decision making" class. The problem is that in a Republic, the Decision makers can just use the power of the presidency as they see fit. The system of checks and balances is woefully inadequate, because the executive power resides essentially entirely within that class itself.

My posit, as it has been for some time, is that the role of President (or monarch) should be reduced to that of a figurehead of congress/the commons. In other words, strip the presidency of all power. In response, however, the second house (senate/lords) would be composed to contain the decision makers in Law, industry and academia. It is this house that would draft and propose laws or action plans (in emergency situations), then pass them down to the commons which must then verify them in order to write them into law.

I should have been taught all about it in school... since I was getting these cards while still there.
What kind of school did you go to? Learning common sense in financial matters was one of the main things we did in our first year of middle school (and they didn't need to do much because we'd learned it all from our parents anyway). That's the kind of thing Tutorials are there for.

by "ruling class" i do not mean elected officials who write and vote on laws.
they usually (at least in the US they have) worked for the ruling class.



also, our school did not have any personal financial class or anything like that.

what should be mandatory for all kids in jr high, female and male, is
home-ec. males need to learn how to cook & clean too.
although much might be influenced by a home situation.
oh, and maybe kids should clean the classrooms at the end of the day.
even in high school. not just grade school when they go outside to pound
the chalk out of the erasers.

by "ruling class" i do not mean elected officials who write and vote on laws.
they usually (at least in the US they have) worked for the ruling class.



why dont you try spelling out what you DO mean then.

why dont you try spelling out what you DO mean then.

He means a minority of people who have a lot of power.

A ruling class typically has been landowners in the past and owners of capital in the present that form a wealthy minority in a country the quickest and easiest way to remove a dominant class or bourgeoisie, I think is a better term, is to, as Marx suggested, get rid of surplus, as mentioned in his theory on primitive communism, before there was surplus there was no class. There a probably better ways that will offer less immediate poverty for certain people.

He means a minority of people who have a lot of power.

yes i have an inkling of what he means but id like to know exactly who he means since he has specifically ruled out elected officials.

we have behind the scenes people who are quite powerful but thats not the same as a class.

yes i have an inkling of what he means but id like to know exactly who he means since he has specifically ruled out elected officials.

we have behind the scenes people who are quite powerful but thats not the same as a class.

The people who have a lot of money and influence. Owners of media, owners of industry, big players in finance etc etc

The people who have a lot of money and influence. Owners of media, owners of industry, big players in finance etc etc

ill believe thats what he means when he confirms it.

then we can talk.

What kind of school did you go to? Learning common sense in financial matters was one of the main things we did in our first year of middle school (and they didn't need to do much because we'd learned it all from our parents anyway). That's the kind of thing Tutorials are there for.

They didn't teach us anything about that here, either. What are "Tutorials"? We didn't have anything called that as far as I know.

what should be mandatory for all kids in jr high, female and male, is
home-ec. males need to learn how to cook & clean too.


I would have hated that class. I hate cleaning. Cooking isn't bad, but I hate cleaning. It's so tedious, it makes me depressed because there's nothing to think about in what you're doing, so you have to think of depressing things instead.

It isn't possible to have a world without ruling classes. You would have to change fundamental genetic human nature to do so. It seems we are hard wired either to lead or follow. If we don't establish a ruling class by constitution and law, one will rise "naturally." That is, someone will, by hard work, determination, murder, blackmail and manipulation, rise to a leadership position - he or she will then consolidate this position by making it hereditary either through actual offspring or adoption.

Saying that there is an actual, honest to god, ruling class in America is difficult. Through a combination of the decentralization of the American government, the sheer size of the country, and the sheer size and diversity of the government mechanisms, we've got weak governing interests, many of which hate each other's guts. The pols, the bureaucrats, the heavy industry, the light industry, the service industry, technological industry, importers and exporters, heavy industry labor, light industry labor, endless kagewdles of single-interest or focused interest groups, the military, the media, et. al.

And that's only on the federal level. It gets even more chaotic the closer you get to the local level.

Credit.. another devil in our midst. It can make you or break you.. but either way it is designed to keep your ass in debt. Why aren't middle schoolers taught about credit? Is this not a major subject in adulthood? IMO there should be extensive classes on this subject. IIRC more that 70% of Americna have bad credit. You should be taught how the hell not to wound up in that 70%. Actually you should be taught how to only use it to your advantage .. and leave it the hell alone after that.

.. pause

I asked many people when this subject has come up. Not one of them was taught about credit and how to handle it in school. Some did mention when they were in college they had tackled the subject but that was only some. I think schools should prepare kids for the real world on top of teaching them basics. As far as the way the credit system works in the US and other nations. You are right to say it is "designed" to keep you in debt. It is a tool to subdue the masses. The upshot to credit is if one is to learn how it works and how you can make it work for you then you are a mile ahead of everyone else. All I can say on this particular subject is to make sure you teach your kids personally about credit and how to use it properly.

The best way to destroy the ruling is to create a TRUE communist society. BUT How many dictatorships lied and stayed in power past time they were supposed to step down? Turning it from a communist gov to a true dictatorship? Capitolist may have a ruling class, but what other country supports it's poorer classes better than the U.S? Surely we would be better off without the lazy classes mooching off welfare and unemployment, but that comes with the property. Being just north of mexico and all...

They didn't teach us anything about that here, either. What are "Tutorials"? We didn't have anything called that as far as I know.
Tutorials are a regular class we got in "real world" matters such as careers, study habits, finances, inter-personal relationships and the like. I figured something like that would be pretty standard. 0_o

Tutorials are a regular class we got in "real world" matters such as careers, study habits, finances, inter-personal relationships and the like. I figured something like that would be pretty standard. 0_o

You would think they would teach this in all schools. I also think this should be standard throughout the US. As far as parents teaching these kind of things. That again is another problem that shouldn't be there. Parents for the most part think the school system is going to teach their kids everything they need to know. This is a lazy way at parenting but sadly this is the truth for many children.

Tutorials are a regular class we got in "real world" matters such as careers, study habits, finances, inter-personal relationships and the like. I figured something like that would be pretty standard. 0_o

No, we never had anything like that...

By making the ruling class equal to everyone else. If there is legislation, there are legislators - people in positions of authority. But when that position is minimized to the equivalent of an office job, where it's their job to stamp the paper without making a decision on which stamp to use, then you have no effective ruling class.

It's really weird how many people I encounter who don't know that the USA operates under a Republic, not a Democracy. I guess they don't teach that distinction in school. The fact of the matter is that Democracy is very close to Communism, but has little or nothing to do with economics. Everyone is free to succeed or fail.

But when someone DOES succeed, that places them above those who have failed. And a ruling class emerges. So, to answer your question - you take control of, and abolish, economics. Every job pays the same wages. Everyone is issued a house of the same size and type. Everyone is given the same kind of car. So on and so forth.

But that's just for one country. Even if you communise an entire nation, it could still be a "ruling class" on the world scale. And so you must unite every nation under a single banner, and then issue everyone the same as in the original nation.

In short, a fully realised communal system. You know, one where the elders don't keep a stash of cheesey poofs and women of negotiable affection in the back.

Really, though... Minimizing the window of personal wealth one can be in (so there is very little difference between the lower, middle, and upper classes) is more sensical as a national leader and is more pleasant for a citizen of that nation.

That would be communism, and it hurts more people than it helps, and utterly destroys free market and enterprise in a country.